This Country Will NEVER Win Another War

[KABOOKIE]

So long as spineless losers like Tillman's brother continue to cry like little babies. You think Al Queda gives a **** about how some raghead brother of theirs dies? NFW. That's why they're winning. America is full of **** ants who think they deserve to know everything. Your brother died. He got shot up by Americans on accident. Take the flag, the bronze star and swallow that Al Queda sympathy lump in your throat. :mad:

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Agreed, until we get unmanned vehicles to deliver our weapons systems and no one will get hurt and will be killed.

[Czar Soonerov]

http://www.ohmss-007.com/neversaymccloryagain/images/websiteimage.jpg

[SteelClip49]

Oh the negativity this thread is leading up to

[yermom]

here's a link...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070424/ap_on_go_co/tillman_friendly_fire

so he's spineless for being upset about the government lying to him and the American public about his dead brother?

sounds like they didn't like the PR hit they were going to take so they started lying to maintain the public's approval for the war

[sanantoniosooner]

PERHAPS if the story had been straight from the beginning they wouldn't have reacted they way they have.

People have a funny way of getting hacked off when they get lied to.

[Fraggle145]

PERHAPS if the story had been straight from the beginning they wouldn't have reacted they way they have.

People have a funny way of getting hacked off when they get lied to.

yep.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

here's a link...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070424/ap_on_go_co/tillman_friendly_fire

so he's spineless for being upset about the government lying to him and the American public about his dead brother?

sounds like they didn't like the PR hit they were going to take so they started lying to maintain the public's approval for the war

Hell it happened all the time in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. War is war and people get hurt, whether by accident or by purpose. Not that I am hard hearted to those that die and those that die because of miscommunication and/or mistakes. We need to reduce the rush to publish/press and the people in this country needs to understand that sacrifice does happen - IMO. Else, we will be overrun like France and people will lose the American way of life that they expect.

[yermom]

that's fine. people die and get hurt, that isn't what Tillman's brother is complaining about, it's not like he's going Sheehan in this deal. is he saying that we should surrender now? i didn't read that part

Tillman was a hero, he gave his life fighting over there instead of playing pro football

now his story is cheapened by false heroism in his story and all this BS

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Understood, I still blame the press and the instantaneous and constant news cycle. They rush around, making up stuff and talking about inane stuff just to have something on the air.

[mdklatt]

Understood, I still blame the press and the instantaneous and constant news cycle. They rush around, making up stuff and talking about inane stuff just to have something on the air.


The military made this stuff up.

[SleestakSooner]

He was stating that the government's use of his brothers death as the engine for their propaganda train did not do justice to his brothers sacrifice and memory. Due to the fact that he and his family were lied to about the actual cause of Pat's death there was a deserved tone to his press conference. He is setting the record straight, as I believe his brother would want him to do.

And when did Pat Tillman die? How is this press conference a "rush to publish/press"?

[SoonerStormchaser]

Umm...hello? The seeds for all this bull**** was sown by all the hippies...FORTY YEARS AGO!!! And we all act like these cheese eating surrender monkeys are a new novelty?

[JohnnyMack]

Understood, I still blame the press and the instantaneous and constant news cycle. They rush around, making up stuff and talking about inane stuff just to have something on the air.

:confused:

[King Crimson]

Umm...hello? The seeds for all this bull**** was sown by all the hippies...FORTY YEARS AGO!!! And we all act like these cheese eating surrender monkeys are a new novelty?

so, people used to enjoy or accept being lied to when family members and relatives died in ways that were not only misrepresented but twisted into propaganda.....before the 60's. that's nonsense. additionally, as yermom noted, i don't see anything about surrender.

Aristophanes wrote an anti-war play, Lysistrata, in 411 BCE.

[KABOOKIE]

My brother is dead but, he died honorably. Yipeeeee!!!

My brother is dead but, the Gubment lied to me. NOW I'M HURT.

Boo fuggin hoo.

[KABOOKIE]

so, people used to enjoy or accept being lied to when family members and relatives died in ways that were not only misrepresented but twisted into propaganda.....before the 60's. that's nonsense. additionally, as yermom noted, i don't see anything about surrender.

Aristophanes wrote an anti-war play, Lysistrata, in 411 BCE.

Yep. And America used to enjoy winning the war too.

[mdklatt]

so, people used to enjoy or accept being lied to when family members and relatives died in ways that were not only misrepresented but twisted into propaganda.....before the 60's. that's nonsense.

Exactly. Is really CNN's fault when nobody believes this administration when they tell us how great things in Iraq given that they've done nothing but exaggerate and lie to us?

[Fraggle145]

Understood, I still blame the press and the instantaneous and constant news cycle. They rush around, making up stuff and talking about inane stuff just to have something on the air.

:rolleyes: It couldnt possibly be the military's fault!? It had to be the press that made it up... :rolleyes: If it would have been presented correctly to them in the 1st place then his legacy never would have been tarnished. People die in war, and sometimes its from friendly fire, that doesnt cheapen their death. lying about it does.

the only reason that they find all this inane crap to talk about is because people that refuse to acknowledge that most of it doesnt matter still watch it 24/7. Anna Nicole Smith = Case in point.

[Okieflyer]

So long as spineless losers like Tillman's brother continue to cry like little babies. You think Al Queda gives a **** about how some raghead brother of theirs dies? NFW. That's why they're winning. America is full of **** ants who think they deserve to know everything. Your brother died. He got shot up by Americans on accident. Take the flag, the bronze star and swallow that Al Queda sympathy lump in your throat. :mad:

I agree in general. But the problem isn't Tilman's brother or any other family member of a fallen Soldier. It's the media's mad rush to publish anything and everything. He maybe venting on things he's knows. This isn't time to start shoving microphones in his face and publish it. I may not agree with what he says, but I understand he lost a close loved one and that causes a person to be very emotional.

[Fraggle145]

I love how this entire thing is the media's fault :rolleyes:

maybe we shouldnt have been over there in the 1st place...

maybe they shouldnt have given the family and the press the wrong story & made a huge deal out of it for a week...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Everybody makes stuff, the press, the military to feed the press, the military to hide a mistake...

Just saying in the old days, it would be reviewed, maybe filed as a mistake, or it would be covered up and Tillman would be a hero and get medals...then it would be over and go away. If the military fixes what caused it, what does it matter if you and I know the real story or not.

[sanantoniosooner]

I agree in general. But the problem isn't Tilman's brother or any other family member of a fallen Soldier. It's the media's mad rush to publish anything and everything. He maybe venting on things he's knows. This isn't time to start shoving microphones in his face and publish it. I may not agree with what he says, but I understand he lost a close loved one and that causes a person to be very emotional.
maybe you should read the rest of the thread.

This issue isn't the media making up stories.

It was the gov using the situation as a positive PR piece even though it didn't happen the way THEY said it did.

This isn't about the publics right to know. Or the media. It's about being accountable for what you say.

[usmc-sooner]

the military has no obligation to give out the details of his death to his family or anyone.

Where people get this idea is beyond me.

[OklahomaTuba]

Exactly. Is really CNN's fault when nobody believes this administration when they tell us how great things in Iraq given that they've done nothing but exaggerate and lie to us?

You mean that same CNN that was telling everyone our troops were being defeated as they rolled in Iraq?

The same CNN that was getting bribed by Saddam? And showed footage of a terrorist sniping one our soldiers, from the terrorists own camera?

[Fraggle145]

maybe you should read the rest of the thread.

This issue isn't the media making up stories.

It was the gov using the situation as a positive PR piece even though it didn't happen the way THEY said it did.

This isn't about the publics right to know. Or the media. It's about being accountable for what you say.

Bingo. It really doesnt if we would have never known, but if you are the government and are gonna lie to the public, you should make sure people dont find out. JMHO.

[Fraggle145]

the military has no obligation to give out the details of his death to his family or anyone.

Where people get this idea is beyond me.

No they dont, but in this case they did.

[King Crimson]

Everybody makes stuff, the press, the military to feed the press, the military to hide a mistake...

Just saying in the old days, it would be reviewed, maybe filed as a mistake, or it would be covered up and Tillman would be a hero and get medals...then it would be over and go away. If the military fixes what caused it, what does it matter if you and I know the real story or not.

that may be true, but i'm a little uncomfortable with some of y'alls preference for the fairy tales you prefer...than the truth.

when you start generalizing that principle....that's a slippery Pravda-type slope.

in principle or philosophically, do you prefer an open society and civil liberties or one you simply "agree" with? because, clearly the two are in opposition for a lot of posters in this thread.

[sanantoniosooner]

the military has no obligation to give out the details of his death to his family or anyone.

Where people get this idea is beyond me.
EXACTLY

So why did they CHOOSE to lie about the details?

When you lie about what happened for positive PR, then you open the door for a butt whipp'n when the truth comes out.

[Okieflyer]

maybe you should read the rest of the thread.

This issue isn't the media making up stories.

It was the gov using the situation as a positive PR piece even though it didn't happen the way THEY said it did.

This isn't about the publics right to know. Or the media. It's about being accountable for what you say.

Maybe you should go back and read what I wrote. I was simply saying that to jump all over a loved one over things he said wasn't nessasary the right thing. I wasn't commenting on the media being wrong about the incident. I was commenting on the fact they always shove a mic in the face of a griveing loved one.

But I know everyone is just looking for a fight.:rolleyes:

[OklahomaTuba]

maybe we shouldnt have been over there in the 1st place...

Our troops shouldn't have been in Afganistan???

WTF are you smoking?

[KABOOKIE]

Well, when the majority of the media is a propaganda front for the enemy it makes sense. How the hell else is the Army supposed to put it?


JOIN THE ARMY AND GET YOUR FACE BLOWN UP!!!

:rolleyes:

[sanantoniosooner]

Maybe you should go back and read what I wrote. I was simply saying that to just all over a loved one over things he said wasn't nessasary the right thing. I was commenting on the media being wrong about the incident. I was commenting on the fact the always shove a mic in the face of a griveing loved on.

But I know everyone is just looking for a fight.:rolleyes:
The media only reported what they were told.

I guess it's the medias fault they were lied to.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

the military has no obligation to give out the details of his death to his family or anyone.

Where people get this idea is beyond me.Many folks don't accept that we are in a REAL war, apparently, and demand the cameras be rolling all the time, to broadcast any and all mistakes made by US troops.

[Okieflyer]

I wasn't commenting on the media being wrong about the incident.

I guess I have to keep repeating myself.

[SoonerBorn68]

the military has no obligation to give out the details of his death to his family or anyone.

Where people get this idea is beyond me.

It's the victim mentality a majority in our country has adopted. Tillman gets killed & his brother is "victimized" by the government. He's "owed" something now. You don't hear many of the other families of killed servicemen cry and moan over this. Tillman was famous & the media latches onto it because it fits their anti war agenda.

It's funny to see the media apologists & anti war crowd chime in on this one...like moths to the flame.

[sanantoniosooner]

The media doesn't have to shove a mike in the face of the family either. The family is seeking the opportunity give their frustration at how things were handled.

[SoonerBorn68]

The media only reported what they were told.

I guess it's the medias fault they were lied to.

It's the media's fault for reporting opinions & agendas--and yes, it's 99% of all national media.

[jk the sooner fan]

maybe we shouldnt have been over there in the 1st place...


ok you remember this happened in afghanistan, and not iraq right?

[Okieflyer]

The media doesn't have to shove a mike in the face of the family either. The family is seeking the opportunity give their frustration at how things were handled.

THAT'S exactly what I said!:D

[sanantoniosooner]

It's the victim mentality a majority in our country has adopted. Tillman gets killed & his brother is "victimized" by the government. He's "owed" something now. You don't hear many of the other families of killed servicemen cry and moan over this. Tillman was famous & the media latches onto it because it fits their anti war agenda.

It's funny to see the media apologists & anti war crowd chime in on this one...like moths to the flame.
This why I avoid most political thread.

People talking out of their behind. I'm not a media apologist or anit-war.

I'm anti the government trying to use the death of a person as a positive spin only to have the truth come out and wish the story would disappear.

[sanantoniosooner]

THAT'S exactly what I said!:D
But the right to do that was made by the way the government handled the situation, not the family.

[jk the sooner fan]

i'd bet money if you went back and did a timeline, you'd find that the major media outlets ran with this story before the Army ever had an official news release beyond the fact that he was killed in action

[FaninAma]

I don't blame Pat Tilman's brother for this. Pat Tilman and his brother both bravely volunteered to fight in Iraq. They didn't have to.

My understanding of the situation was that Pat led his squad into a region of hostility against the advisement of his superiors. There was not enough intelligence to know enough about the fluctuating situation to know where the friendly fire and enemy fire were coming from and that is where the terrible incident took place.

The thing that disgusts me are the worms in the Democratic party who are willing to encourage an obvious grieving family to assign blame in order to try and further undermine the effort in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If you don't think friendly fire incidents happen in every war and were much more common even as recently as Vietnam than they are in Iraq you need to do a little research on the subject.

It's sad that it happens but it's a part of warfare.

I actually think the military is trying to protect Pat Tilman's memory since it was a bad decision on his part that led to his death.

Yesterday I thought treason was too strong of a word to describe what the Democrats were doing but this concerted effort on their part to undermine the moral and spirit of the troops and American public while hamstringing the military would make Hitler's propaganda office proud. The anti-war scum of the 1960's have indeed come to roost inside the Democratic party.

[Okieflyer]

But the right to do that was made by the way the government handled the situation, not the family.

Man, sasooner we're saying the same thing. I agree and that was my point.

[SoonerBorn68]

This why I avoid most political thread.

People talking out of their behind. I'm not a media apologist or anit-war.

I'm anti the government trying to use the death of a person as a positive spin only to have the truth come out and wish the story would disappear.

Wow, I guess something tingled inside you thinking I was talking about you. I'm flattered.

[sanantoniosooner]

i'd bet money if you went back and did a timeline, you'd find that the major media outlets ran with this story before the Army ever had an official news release beyond the fact that he was killed in action
That may totally be the case.

But there is no doubt that the military attempted to capitalize on the situation and it has backfired.

I'm upset and it's not even my brother.

If they had just given a press release that said "bad things happen in war" it everyone would probably have moved on.

[mdklatt]

the military has no obligation to give out the details of his death to his family or anyone.


This doesn't mean they should lie about it when they do.

[SoonerBorn68]

If the goverment handled it like this, there would be no story.

http://www.armyairforces.com/project44/images/research/wu_june44.gif

[sanantoniosooner]

If the goverment handled it like this, there would be no story.


exactly.

And since they didn't, they opened up a can of worms.

[Okieflyer]

I actually think the military is trying to protect Pat Tilman's memory since it was a bad decision on his part that led to his death.


I would like to think this, but the truth is probably a lot of CYA by the military. The problem is that we can't except the idea of "friendly fire". Yes it's horrible, but it happens. It would be nice if the military could be honest, but they can't because the political backlash.

Instead of a million questions on "why we would bomb cilivians in a bunker" the answer should be "sorry, but they were in a bunker". I don't think we'll see honesty like that anytime soon.

[jk the sooner fan]

That may totally be the case.

But there is no doubt that the military attempted to capitalize on the situation and it has backfired.

I'm upset and it's not even my brother.

If they had just given a press release that said "bad things happen in war" it everyone would probably have moved on.

i totally disagree the army tried to "capitalize".......more a case of damage control, because they had a turd that they had to polish

what on earth did the army have to gain?

[sanantoniosooner]

i totally disagree the army tried to "capitalize".......more a case of damage control, because they had a turd that they had to polish

what on earth did the army have to gain?
Well the positive PR that a guy gave up his livelihood, joined the army to make a difference and became a hero to save others isn't a bad story.

But when you paint that picture and then go "oops" it tends to go south quick.

[jk the sooner fan]

if the soldier killed in this friendly fire incident had been anybody other than Pat Tillman, former NFL star gone hero, we wouldnt be having this discussion

[Okieflyer]

if the soldier killed in this friendly fire incident had been anybody other than Pat Tillman, former NFL star gone hero, we wouldnt be having this discussion

It depends on if the left gets a hold of it for political reasons. i.e. Cindy Sheehan.

[jk the sooner fan]

Well the positive PR that a guy gave up his livelihood, joined the army to make a difference and became a hero to save others isn't a bad story.

But when you paint that picture and then go "oops" it tends to go south quick.

dude, the army had that story when he joined......he didnt have to die.....but remember, he specifically volunteered for Ranger training - he did everything he could to put himself into harms way.....

the recruiting dream story was already done......long before he went into combat

[Okieflyer]

But the right to do that was made by the way the government handled the situation, not the family.

Please go back and read my original post. (I think you're just trying to freak me out!)



And now I am done with it.

[sanantoniosooner]

if the soldier killed in this friendly fire incident had been anybody other than Pat Tillman, former NFL star gone hero, we wouldnt be having this discussion
If it was anyone else they wouldn't have anything to gain by glamorizing his death.

Of course, this discussion would go in circles if we disagree about them capitalizing on the situation.

[jk the sooner fan]

It depends on if the left gets a hold of it for political reasons. i.e. Cindy Sheehan.

the number of soldiers killed as a result of fratricide is much higher than you probably think...

[JohnnyMack]

if the soldier killed in this friendly fire incident had been anybody other than Pat Tillman, former NFL star gone hero, we wouldnt be having this discussion

I can say that I agree with that statement.

[jk the sooner fan]

If it was anyone else they wouldn't have anything to gain by glamorizing his death.

Of course, this discussion would go in circles if we disagree about them capitalizing on the situation.

exactly who in the army glorified his death?

remember it was the NFL that put on the dog and pony show, along with all the major networks, almost immediately after his death

i dont remember any specific event that the army sponsored that glorified his death.....please enlighten me if my memory is incorrect

[sanantoniosooner]

And now I am done with it.
I'll join you:)

[FaninAma]

the number of soldiers killed as a result of fratricide is much higher than you probably think...

Some of the friendly fire incidents we know about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire

[King Crimson]

Some of the friendly fire incidents we know about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire

friendly fire isn't the issue here: the potential coverup, multiple stories told to family, and perceived use of the death for political purposes by the family--who apparently have no rights in this SF tribunal other than to be called spineless pussies and the instruments of treasonous Democrats.

in fact, if fratricide so commonplace why would the "protect the family"/polish the turd theory you outline above in your defense of the military be convincing?

can't really have it both ways fan.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

i'd bet money if you went back and did a timeline, you'd find that the major media outlets ran with this story before the Army ever had an official news release beyond the fact that he was killed in action

Ding, Ding, Ding!

What I was trying to refer to, if albeit, poorly.

[FaninAma]

friendly fire isn't the issue here: the potential coverup, multiple stories told to family, and perceived use of the death for political purposes by the family--who apparently have no rights in this SF tribunal other than to be called spineless pussies and the instruments of treasonous Democrats.

in fact, if fratricide so commonplace why would the "protect the family"/polish the turd theory you outline above in your defense of the military be convincing?

can't really have it both ways fan.

You have any source for your tripe? The source for my contention are 2 cousins who were serving in Afghanistan with the Marines when Tilman was killed and talked to members of his company about what happened.

Tilman was not spineless. He was very brave. He made a mistake and as a result died needlessly. It's sad but it should not be a story that is exploited by the scum Democrats and his family should recognize this and not let themselve be exploited.

As far as friendly fire deaths being frequent or not I guess you didn't read the article that stated 16% of US deaths in WWII were friendly fire. I'd call that fairly common. Fratricide is not the same thing as friendly fire. The militray, IMO, tried to preserve Timan's sacrifice. I think it speaks well of them that they didn't automatically point out that the main reason the incident happened was because of Pat's error in judement.

Try again.

[King Crimson]

You have any source for your tripe? The source for my contention are 2 cousins who were serving in Afghanistan with the Marines when Tilman was killed and talked to members of his company about what happened.

Tilman was not spineless. He was very brave. He made a mistake and as a result died needlessly. It's sad but it should not be a story that is exploited by the scum Democrats and his family should recognize this and not let themselve be exploited.

Try again.


LOL. that's quite a rhetorical flourish, "try again". amusing how the standing claim is that the exploitation of the death was not originally by the Democrats. I don't deny they may be doing it *now*(i'm not a dem, never will be)...but that's not what's at issue here. all you can do is reverse the charge in your continuing pretzel logic (over the years, and you are not alone) to defend the military, the war(s) and indirectly Bush. the old, "i didn't do it, you did it!" strategy appropriate for grade school playground disputation varnished with references to Hitler, tripe, and treason.

that's a real masterpiece fan. it must be comfy to live in a world where all perceived contradictions, illogical, and moral turpitude are the product of whomever you choose to scapegoat.

talk about victim culture.

[jk the sooner fan]

ummmm, in the military - fratricide = friendly fire

[FaninAma]

ummmm, in the military - fratricide = friendly fire

I'll defer to your definition. To me the term fratricide has connotations of intentionality(fragging) while friendly fire has a connotation more consistent with being purely accidental. Semantics.

I think the military was put in a no-win situation. One of most famous members of their enlisted ranks was killed in a tragic accident. They could either be quiet about it or they could publicize every detail including the details that ,IMO, would have tarnished Tilman's memory and sacrifice.

This country is being hollowed out by cynicism and actions based on selfish motives. The Democrats have a purely selfish motive for having these hearings now and trying to humuliate Bush. A by-product of their selfish desire to hamstring this administration is that they are undecutting confidence and faith in the military.....a side effect I suspect the Democrats don't mind at all.

I think it is detrimental and dangerous for the security of the country for the Democrats to be seen gleefully and agressively undermining our military and questioning the performance of our troops.

[jk the sooner fan]

fratricide defined is being killed by your own brother

fragging, in the sense that you refer is just homicide

my opinion is that the country, steered by the mainstream media, wanted to believe that Tillman was another audie murphy.....they wanted it bad bad bad

and do you think the army was going to **** on that parade? hell no....i guess thats your PR nightmare.......so they let people believe what they wanted to believe, and then people started asking questions and the truth comes out

its a shame that the Tillman family has latched on to this and this alone - because it doesnt change one damn thing about the sacrifice their son made for our country....he was there because he wanted to be there, not because he had to be...he's not like some 18 year old kid that enlists because its all he's got....he left millions on the table to go play johnny rambo out of his own patriotism, and bravo for him....seriously, its a great story

so why **** all over it because the army mishandled the story AFTER his death - jeebus we are our own worst enemy at times

[Fraggle145]

ok you remember this happened in afghanistan, and not iraq right?

no, I didnt at the time my mistake. thanks for the correction.