SCOTUS Upholds Ban On Partial Birth Abortion

[FaninAma]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266724,00.html

A big "thank you" goes out to the majority who supported the ban.

Justice Kennedy was the swing vote.

[JohnnyMack]

Good.

[Hatfield]

as long as there are exceptions to protect the life of the mother, i am cool with that.

[frankensooner]

Just how many of those types of abortions are done each year? Aren't they generally done to protect the life of the mother? So, it there are exceptions to protect the life of the mother, is there a zero net change here? How much money was spent passing this legislation and then fighting it in the Courts?

edit: Okay, I read the article. They will just dismember the fetus in the womb now instead. So a net change of "0". Just bans this type of abortion.

[Hatfield]

not many, this is just a sensasionalist headline designed to elate the uninformed.

[Okla-homey]

It's worth noting that the decision bans a particular procedure, not a woman's right to choose an abortion.

[mdklatt]

It's worth noting that the decision bans a particular procedure, not a woman's right to choose an abortion.


So why is this not okay:



The procedure at issue involves partially removing the fetus intact from a woman's uterus, then crushing or cutting its skull to complete the abortion.


But this is:



Abortion opponents say the law will not reduce the number of abortions performed because an alternate method — dismembering the fetus in the uterus — is available and, indeed, much more common.


?

[Okla-homey]

So why is this not okay:



But this is:



?

precisely.

[FaninAma]

I would be shocked if any doctor performed the dimemberment procedure on an unborn infant after 8 months of gestation. The risk of complications such as infection, bleeding and worse would be too high. Infact, any so called D&E procedure after 27 weeks carries much more risk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilation_and_evacuation

[SicEmBaylor]

Just how many of those types of abortions are done each year? Aren't they generally done to protect the life of the mother? So, it there are exceptions to protect the life of the mother, is there a zero net change here? How much money was spent passing this legislation and then fighting it in the Courts?

edit: Okay, I read the article. They will just dismember the fetus in the womb now instead. So a net change of "0". Just bans this type of abortion.

From my understanding the total number of times an abortion has to be performed into truly saving the life of the mother in this country is VERY VERY low. In fact, from what I understand it almost never happens.

[FaninAma]

From my understanding the total number of times an abortion has to be performed into truly saving the life of the mother in this country is VERY VERY low. In fact, from what I understand it almost never happens.

About 18,000 3rd trimester abortions are performed in the US each year(after 27 weeks)

[SicEmBaylor]

About 18,000 3rd trimester abortions are performed in the US each year(after 27 weeks)
How many of those are performed because the life of the mother is in jeopardy?
I'm guessing an even smaller number than that.

[Frozen Sooner]

Considering it would be a logical impossibility for it to be a larger number, that's a safe bet.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Considering it would be a logical impossibility for it to be a larger number, that's a safe bet.Smart a*s, it COULD be that ALL of them were performed to save the life of the mother....Haha

[SicEmBaylor]

Considering it would be a logical impossibility for it to be a larger number, that's a safe bet.
Heh.

[Octavian]

I haven't read the decision and opinions yet, but I'm sure GOP strategists would've rather this happened two years from now...it dampens a hot button rallying cry for the '08 elections.


They'll need to turn up the volume on their "sanctity of marriage" speakers.

[Frozen Sooner]

Smart a*s, it COULD be that ALL of them were performed to save the life of the mother....Haha

:D

Never claimed to not be a smart ***.

[sanantoniosooner]

:D

Never claimed to not be a smart ***.
You really make it uncomfortable for those of us who take this place serious.

[Jerk]

I don't know if the decision has any real practical meaning.

I'm just glad that we have at least 5 sane judges on the panel. I heard that Ruth Bater Ginsburg wrote the disent and acted as if the world had just ended. Boo friggin' hoo.

[mdklatt]

They'll need to turn up the volume on their "sanctity of marriage" speakers.

I wonder if they'll have a Giuliani/Gingrich "sanctity of marriage" dream ticket.

:D

[KABOOKIE]

Why would any loose lip whore need an abortion AFTER 27 weeks? Chopping up babies is pretty much wrong. But go ahead and hold on to that "right". :rolleyes:

[Hatfield]

How many of those are performed because the life of the mother is in jeopardy?
I'm guessing an even smaller number than that.

why are you guessing? why not just educate yourself on the number?

[TUSooner]

So why is this not okay:

[partial birth abortion]

But this is:
[in-utero dismemberment]


?
I don't think the SCT was asked to decide exactly that. You'd have to ask the legislators who thought there was a big enough difference to warrant the bill.

[JohnnyMack]

Why would any loose lip whore need an abortion AFTER 27 weeks? Chopping up babies is pretty much wrong. But go ahead and hold on to that "right". :rolleyes:

Agreed. Any ****stick who wants an 3rd trimester abortion based on anything other than the mothers life needs to be beat on and about the head with a lead pipe.

[Hamhock]

Agreed. Any ****stick who wants an 3rd trimester abortion based on anything other than the mothers life needs to be beat on and about the head with a lead pipe.


why is 3rd trimester different that 14 weeks?

serious question.

[JohnnyMack]

why is 3rd trimester different that 14 weeks?

serious question.

In my mind they're not really. I think either one is wrong.

However in terms of the fetus becoming viable, it's typically at around 24-26 weeks. The notion of aborting a viable human being because you feel like it is just plain wrong.

[jk the sooner fan]

fan - where did you get the 18K figure from.....and what is the total # of abortions performed in a year? just curious to know what percentage of all abortions are in the 3d trimester

[Frozen Sooner]

fan - where did you get the 18K figure from.....and what is the total # of abortions performed in a year? just curious to know what percentage of all abortions are in the 3d trimester

I'll be that the number of third trimester abortions is fewer than the number of total abortions.

Love,

SicEm.

:D

[Vaevictis]

why is 3rd trimester different that 14 weeks?

Because in the third trimester, there's no doubt in any intelligent and sane person's mind that it's a full-blown human.

Around say, 14 weeks (which I think is probably a bit high), there is some honest disagreement amongst sane/intelligent people on that point.

[Oldnslo]

Because in the third trimester, there's no doubt in any intelligent and sane person's mind that it's a full-blown human.

Around say, 14 weeks (which I think is probably a bit high), there is some honest disagreement amongst sane/intelligent people on that point.
I do not believe that any person of any stripe enters into the decision to abort easily.

The problem I have with both sides of this issue is that both truth and compassion have been utterly lost. You can't tell me that a child is just a choice. Similarly, you can't tell me that a rape or incest victim must give birth or that the mom must risk her life.

Somewhere between the extremes is where we should be, but the argument has been defined by the extremists.

A little compassion would go a long way.

(I am not meaning to imply that Brother V is not compassionate. I simply did not want some other comment to disrupt the flow of the discussion. I also think there's a difference between 3d trimester and 1st or 2nd, but I don't know what issues (medical or legal) which may come to light at some time).

[sanantoniosooner]

The thing is that rape an incest account for a ridiculously small fraction of abortion.

Defining the whole by that small number is crazy. I'm not saying don't show compassion to that group. I'm saying that group is held up like a standard and they are a teeny tiny minority of the total.

[Frozen Sooner]

Because in the third trimester, there's no doubt in any intelligent and sane person's mind that it's a full-blown human.

Around say, 14 weeks (which I think is probably a bit high), there is some honest disagreement amongst sane/intelligent people on that point.

That's an interesting comment, Vae. It automatically categorizes anyone who disagrees with your position as either unintelligent or insane.

[Hamhock]

anyone ever hear Tom Coburn tell the story about his grandma (i think) being the product of rape?

[Vaevictis]

That's an interesting comment, Vae. It automatically categorizes anyone who disagrees with your position as either unintelligent or insane.

Feel free to provide a counter example; show me a sane and intelligent person that feels that a 6-9 month old baby isn't a full on "human." Of course, the first question I'll ask is, "Are you really sure that person isn't a sociopath in disguise?"

[jk the sooner fan]

The thing is that rape an incest account for a ridiculously small fraction of abortion.

Defining the whole by that small number is crazy. I'm not saying don't show compassion to that group. I'm saying that group is held up like a standard and they are a teeny tiny minority of the total.

its even smaller now with the invention of the "morning after" pill

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

If looking at awareness and intelligence is the key to determining someone's life value, then half (which is approxiamatly 8 people) of the poster's on this board could possibly be 32nd Trimester aborted

[Frozen Sooner]

Feel free to provide a counter example; show me a sane and intelligent person that feels that a 6-9 month old baby isn't a full on "human." Of course, the first question I'll ask is, "Are you really sure that person isn't a sociopath in disguise?"

You're bright enough to recognize this as a logical fallacy. Why would anyone choose to debate you in this manner?

For the record, I'm on board with third-trimesters being pretty fully-developed etc. I also recognize that this is something on which reasonable people can disagree and I'm not willing to dismiss anyone who disagrees as a lunatic, sociopath, or idiot.

[sanantoniosooner]

I also recognize that this is something on which reasonable people can disagree and I'm not willing to dismiss anyone who disagrees as a lunatic, sociopath, or idiot.
It's the only reason I tolerate you.

[yermom]

i think you should be able to wait until they are 3 or so to decide whether or not they are little ****s or deserve to live ;)


Mike, what Vae was saying is that in the 3rd trimester the baby could live on it's own without the mother. at that point i'm not sure what intelligent or sane person would just call that "fetal tissue"

[Frozen Sooner]

i think you should be able to wait until they are 3 or so to decide whether or not they are little ****s or deserve to live ;)


Mike, what Vae was saying is that in the 3rd trimester the baby could live on it's own without the mother. at that point i'm not sure what intelligent or sane person would just call that "fetal tissue"

I absolutely could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure that a baby born at six months and six days doesn't survive very long without pretty heroic medical measures.

[yermom]

it's still viable

i think that the idea in the post was that this was the common ground, most people aren't arguing this point

[Vaevictis]

You're bright enough to recognize this as a logical fallacy. Why would anyone choose to debate you in this manner?

Mike, it's not a logical fallacy to ask for a counter-example. I'm not providing any evidence in support of it because really, it's a value judgment on my part.

Being a value judgment, about the only thing that can blow my opinion out of the water is a counter-example. :D


For the record, I'm on board with third-trimesters being pretty fully-developed etc. I also recognize that this is something on which reasonable people can disagree and I'm not willing to dismiss anyone who disagrees as a lunatic, sociopath, or idiot.

Well, it looks like you've got a value judgment of your own there ;) And to be honest, my original comment was hyperbole. :D

And while viability is the issue for some people, it ain't for me. You could bring viability outside of the womb all the way down to the moment of conception, and you still wouldn't get me to call a zygote a human.

[Frozen Sooner]

It's not a logical fallacy to ask for a counter-example. It's a logical fallacy to say "Everyone who disagrees with me is insane or unintelligent, and even if you provide me with a counter-example I'm going to wonder if they're a closet sociopath."

[Hatfield]

dork fight dork fight
http://z.about.com/d/animatedtv/1/0/j/T/timmy_CrippleFight_400.jpg

[Vaevictis]

It's a logical fallacy to say "Everyone who disagrees with me is insane or unintelligent, and even if you provide me with a counter-example I'm going to wonder if they're a closet sociopath."

I had a response, but it crashed from an overflow of pedantry.

But in any case, you're trying to apply rules of logic to a statement that isn't based in logic. It's based in value judgments. There are assumptions being made that make the damn thing a tautology. There's really no logical fallacy because there's no attempt at logic. ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

Just didn't expect it out of you, man. That's all. Took me by surprise.

[Jerk]

:pop:

[Vaevictis]

Well, I've long since come to the conclusion that at the root, the abortion issue a metaphysical/philosophical thing -- when does that clump of cells become human?

As such, I've long since given up on trying to apply logic and science to the issue -- the question is out of their domain. End of story.

Each individual is just going to have to meditate over the question, apply whatever process they think they need to, and say, "Well, at this point, the thing is a human." In general, prior to that, I don't see how you can say a woman can't abort the thing, and after that, I don't see how you can say a woman can.

As far as the position goes, the assumptions are:

1. Nobody disagrees about it being human around 6+ months.
2. Anyone who would kill an innocent child like that is insane or unintelligent.
3. Ergo, anybody who would kill a fetus at 6+ months is insane or unintelligent.

The logic, I think, is completely sound. You may disagree with the assumptions.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot #4. Anyone who disagrees with #1 (the part about it being human, that is, not that nobody disagrees) is of questionable sanity and intelligence. Self-referential tautology, kind of.

[Okla-homey]

I just read the opinion. You can too. It's the second one down, decided today Gonzales v. Carhart if you would rather not wade thru the whole thing, there is a summary (called a syllabus) at the head of the opinion.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06slipopinion.html

A couple of points. One, the dissent is flippin' livid and it comes thru loud and clear.

Also, this statute is unique in that there is no exception for the health of the mother, which is kinda significant. In the past, "health of the mother" has been stretched by abortion advocates to include the mental stress of having a baby a person doesn't want. Perhaps that is why that door was closed by Congress in this law. I dunno, but it is remarkable. There is an exception to save the life of the mother though.

Anyway, if you care about such things, read Justice Ginsburg's dissent at the end of the opinion. She is flat out fired up. In fact, she didn't even close with "I respectfully dissent," which is the standard sign-off. Instead, she just wrote "I dissent" which is the SCOTUS equivalent of <cartman voice> "scru you guys!":eek:

[Vaevictis]

Just didn't expect it out of you, man. That's all. Took me by surprise.

I think all of the above is to say, "Dude, I know it's illogical. But it's the ****ing way I feel. Whaddyagunnado? :O"

[KABOOKIE]

That bitch Ginsburg would just love to have an abortion just to say she got knocked up. Boo hoo bitch. Let's crush your skull and dismember your body because my health is at risk.

[OklahomaRed]

I think someone tried to by the looks of her face. She's just a missed abortion attempt. Perhaps that is what she's so peeved about? :D