Virginia Tech Shooting

[Beano's Fourth Chin]

Sorry, was trying to clean out the jokes from the thread and accidentally deleted the whole thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html

[85Sooner]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070416/D8OHQA5O0.html

sorry if already posted

[colleyvillesooner]

From msnbc.com


BLACKSBURG, Va. - At least 22 people were killed Monday in a shooting rampage on the Virginia Tech campus, police said. They said the gunman was among the dead.

In addition to those killed, officials said at least 28 people were wounded.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said the gunman was dead, but that he didn't know how he died.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

[Petro-Sooner]

very very sad deal.

[85Sooner]

Sorry beano didn't see you there. Yeah this has really gotten bad. God Bless the families

[CUinNC]

Hell, I don't even feel like working anymore today....so sad...

this is VT's just-released statement to the students & faculty:

Announcement on Virgina Tech's Web Site

Last Edited: Monday, 16 Apr 2007, 12:55 PM EDT
Created: Monday, 16 Apr 2007, 12:55 PM EDT

Virginia Tech University logo, graphic element on white (by AP) Shooting incident on campus
By Larry Hincker / Va
BLACKSBURG, Va., April 16, 2007 -- Counseling is available in the Bowman Room in the Merriman Center (part of the athletic complex) for employees who seek assistance following today's events.
-----------------
Faculty and staff on the Burruss side of the Drillfield are being released and asked to go home effective immediately. Faculty and staff on the War Memorial side are asked to leave at 12:30 p.m.
-----------------
Virginia Tech has closed today Monday, April 16, 2007. On Tuesday, April 17, classes will be canceled. The university will remain open for administrative operations.
There will be an additional university statement presented today at noon.
All students, faculty, and staff are required to stay where they are until police execute a planned evacuation. A phased closing will be in effect today; further information will be forthcoming as soon as police secure the campus.
Tomorrow, there will be a university convocation/ceremony at noon at Cassell Coliseum. The Inn at Virginia Tech has been designated as the site for parents to gather and obtain information.
-----------------
In addition to an earlier shooting today in West Ambler Johnston, there has been a multiple shooting with multiple victims in Norris Hall.
Police and EMS are on the scene.
Police have one shooter in custody and as part of routine police procedure, they continue to search for a second shooter.
All people in university buildings are required to stay inside until further notice.
All entrances to campus are closed.

[Sooner_Bob]

Whoa

[OU4LIFE]

dang

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Just horrible...awful...so, so sad.

:(

[ChickSoonerFan]

tragic.

[12]

Can you imagine how frightening that would be? I've actually thought about what I'd do if somebody walked in our offices and started shooting.

Hate to say it, but I'd probably close my office door and hide under my desk. I'm about the second person they would see as they started through the office.

Let's all keep these kids in our thoughts and prayers.

[SicEmBaylor]

It's a dangerous world.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Read the classroom was in the/an engineering building.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Can you imagine how frightening that would be? I've actually thought about what I'd do if somebody walked in our offices and started shooting.

Hate to say it, but I'd probably close my office door and hide under my desk. I'm about the second person they would see as they started through the office.

Let's all keep these kids in our thoughts and prayers.

We've talked about this in here in my office. We're the first office by the side entrance. But mine's the last one in the row - so I'd be last. And I'd have time to get to my hidin' place. And, yes - I have a hiding place. That's how much I've thought about this.

When you get bomb threats from people because the company's owned by the Japanese you tend to think about stuff like this. Which makes me very sad.

[SicEmBaylor]

Can you imagine how frightening that would be? I've actually thought about what I'd do if somebody walked in our offices and started shooting.

Hate to say it, but I'd probably close my office door and hide under my desk. I'm about the second person they would see as they started through the office.

Let's all keep these kids in our thoughts and prayers.

Well, I've actually thought about basically the same thing. The possibility of someone shooting up my school. In fact, I've thought for awhile it was possible at Baylor by muslim extremists who want to make a statement by shooting up a Christian school in Bush's backyard.

I'm not saying that's the case here, but like you I've considered the possibility of someone shooting up my school.

[springs sooner]

why do people who obviously have a death wish choose to kill inocent people? i mean if you want to commit suicide then do it but dont take other people with you who still want to live. Very sad and uncalled for.

[CUinNC]

Read the classroom was in the/an engineering building.

They're still looking for a second....first shooting was in a dorm, then across campus in the Eng. building...that's why it's taking so long to secure the campus & let everyone get out...

21 dead, 21 wounded...tragic
At least the shooter they nailed, will now face a much worse fate than prison ever could've...

[SicEmBaylor]

why do people who obviously have a death wish choose to kill inocent people? i mean if you want to commit suicide then do it but dont take other people with you who still want to live. Very sad and uncalled for.

It's impossible to get any justice out of an act like that. When they kill themselves you can't find the closure that a trial and execution would bring.

[OhU1]

The last time something of this magnitude occurred at a college campus was the Charles Whitman rampage in 1966 at the University of Texas. Horrible.

[tommieharris91]

Wow, MSNBC has audio from one of the victims. Said the shooter had on a black leather coat. He just decided to go on a shooting spree, and that he wanted to come back, but the classmates had barricaded the door so the shooter could not get back in and kill more people. The shooter apparently tried to shoot through the door. The victim said he got shot in the arm.

I don't know what I'd do if something like that were to happen at OU.

[Fraggle145]

:(

[TheHumanAlphabet]

News just said he was gunning for an old girlfriend. Wonder what it will all be as this sorts out...

[Osce0la]

I read earlier that they had the campus on lockdown after the first shooting, and that as they were lifting the lockdown the second shooting happened...

This is insane and a very sad day...

[royalfan5]

Sounds like it may be up to 29 dead and 32 wounded now. Also some indication that an ex-girlfriend may have been the motivation for the start of the rampage, but it is still unclear.

[SicEmBaylor]

Have they said if the shooter was a student at VTech or did just the ex g/f go there?

[royalfan5]

Have they said if the shooter was a student at VTech or did just the ex g/f go there?
I've seen rumors that the shooter was a student at Radford, but nothing confirmed.

[CUinNC]

It's up to 30+ dead now....

As one with 2 sons in college, I cannot imagine....

[Osce0la]

geez, the front page of CNN.com has a picture of a student being carried, blood all over him...

[royalfan5]

According to FOX news the shooter has been described as an Asian who was wearing a vest covered in clips.

[Osce0la]

According to FOX news the shooter has been described as an Asian who was wearing a vest covered in clips.
The guy on MSNBC says he was Asian, college aged guy, with a maroon hat and a black leather coat...

[Rhino]

http://www.foxnews.com/images/277021/14_62_041607_shooting1.jpghttp://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_1642_images/0416071259_M_041607_shooting3.jpg

[Mjcpr]

http://www.foxnews.com/images/277021/14_62_041607_shooting1.jpg

He doesn't look dead.

[Jeopardude]

God, so many questions that will probably never be answered. I wish the Hokies recovery from this insanity.

[olevetonahill]

When i posted my earlier news thingy there was 1 dead , I go away and come back to find 30 and prolly counting . :eek:
Preyers to all of the families and the students

[picasso]

32 dead is the last number I saw. and for the record my first attempt at this story was not to be funny. Pat had to go and screw it all up.

[Fraggle145]

32 dead is the last number I saw. and for the record my first attempt at this story was not to be funny. Pat had to go and screw it all up.

I dont think anyone thought it would be this serious.

If you hear the video on CNN whent the firing starts it just keeps going, very chilling. apparently he had them line up and essentially executed them one after another. very very sad. :(

[toast]

thoughts and prayers with the university, parents and loved ones.

[picasso]

was there 2 shooters? one is dead.

[olevetonahill]

was there 2 shooters? one is dead.
No clue . I want to know how over 2 hrs after the 1st shooting the 2nd could happen .:confused:

[Scott D]

How many of you in deleted threads had Pacman Jones quips?

tis a very tragic event indeed.

[Seamus]

God, what a nightmare. I have a heavy heart right now. :(

[picasso]

wow, the school is going to have to answer for not shutting it down after early this morning.

[JohnnyMack]

How many of you in deleted threads had Pacman Jones quips?


<raises hand>

I think I was first in with the Pac-Man Jones reference.

[TUSooner]

Wow. This is worse than bad and worse than I could have imagined. Very sickening.

[Xstnlsooner]

It's definitely a crazy world, full of all types of people. Just look
at us, but indiscriminate killing is insane. What a tragedy!

[85Sooner]

I hope we don't find out that this was a foreign exchange student. Not thatit matters

[ArkanSooner]

Every college student's worst fear. My heart and thoughts go out to all the Hokies. Horrible and senseless.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

I wonder what makes a person reach a point in their life...or their mind where they could actually do this. What makes your mind accept it and actually decide to do it?

What makes you actually plan something like this. Do you ever hiccup and think 'OMG, WTF am I doing' or is it one long...thought?

Very, very hard to understand...

[Ardmore_Sooner]

I'm sure something will happen here on campus due to these events. Prayers going to the students and their families. :(

[Boomer.....]

Horrible......

[Boomer.....]

I just got this email from Boren:


TO: All OU Students, Faculty, and Staff

As an extra security precaution in light of the tragic events at Virginia Tech University, the security doors in our residence halls will be locked 24 hours a day for the remainder of the semester and require an ID card or room key for access.

Sincerely,

David Boren
President

[mdklatt]

From David Boren:


As an extra security precaution in light of the tragic events at Virginia Tech University, the security doors in our residence halls will be locked 24 hours a day for the remainder of the semester and require an ID card or room key for access.


This is silly. Not that it's necessarily a bad idea, but the purely reactionary motivation for it is stupid.

OMIGOD OMIGOD OMIGOD GOTTA DO SOMETHING GOTTA DO SOMETHING GOTTA DO SOMETHING RIGHT THISVERYSECOND

[Petro-Sooner]

From David Boren:



This is silly. Not that it's necessarily a bad idea, but the purely reactionary motivation for it is stupid.

OMIGOD OMIGOD OMIGOD GOTTA DO SOMETHING GOTTA DO SOMETHING GOTTA DO SOMETHING RIGHT THISVERYSECOND

Exactly. Say reason there is no alcohol allowed on campus anymore.

Knee. Jerk.

[picasso]

call me crazy but I think Boren has a bit more responsibility than we do.

[Mjcpr]

Just like all those changes made to the airlines after 9/11.

So reactionary and stupid.

:rolleyes:

[Rhino]

Better to be reactionary than stupid.

[yermom]

Just like all those changes made to the airlines after 9/11.

So reactionary and stupid.

:rolleyes:


well, they kinda were...

the box cutters would not have worked to take down a plane on 9/12 (or whenever planes were flying again)

to get into the dorms now would just be a matter of social engineering... that and it doesn't do much if the deranged gunman lived in your dorm

[picasso]

you're missing the point. stupid or not, the person in charge would get hanged if they did nothing.

[Mjcpr]

well, they kinda were...

the box cutters would not have worked to take down a plane on 9/12 (or whenever planes were flying again)

to get into the dorms now would just be a matter of social engineering... that and it doesn't do much if the deranged gunman lived in your dorm

Maybe....maybe not. For my peace of mind, given a choice, I'd choose to fly with the enhanced security from the screening process, the changes to the cockpit doors and the upgrade of the Air Marshall program, among others.

[yermom]

i didn't say they shouldn't do anything... but that is all this is, it's the "well, i guess i have to do something..."

[jk the sooner fan]

Better to be reactionary than stupid.

or dead!

we've had MANY examples of copycat killers.......if over reacting doesnt hurt anything then whats the big friggin deal......there's always something to complain about i guess

[yermom]

Maybe....maybe not. For my peace of mind, given a choice, I'd choose to fly with the enhanced security from the screening process, the changes to the cockpit doors and the upgrade of the Air Marshall program, among others.

well, your peace of mind isn't what i'm talking about

i think it was more about making people feel safer than actually making them safer, at least as far as restricting items people can bring on the plane

the Air Marshalls and cockpit door things are pretty solid though

[Petro-Sooner]

:pop:


We'll see tomorrow if I get padded down as I step on campus. And I hope the class room doors are locked.


:rolleyes:

[yermom]

or dead!

we've had MANY examples of copycat killers.......if over reacting doesnt hurt anything then whats the big friggin deal......there's always something to complain about i guess

it's not like that would keep someone out of the classrooms...

i just don't think there is much to stop this kinda thing, unless you somehow do something to rid us of psychos :(

[william_brasky]

Death toll is at 32 now I just heard.

Prayers and thoughts to the families and VT.

[Petro-Sooner]

Now all the anti gun people are going to come out in force.



Again. Very sad day.

[Rhino]

If Boren issued a statement that told students to "be vigilant" or something, then I would say he's doing something just to do something.

You can't stop something crazy like this from happening at school, church, home, the grocery store, the mall, whatever. But you can put barriers into place to deter and contain those actions.

[Frozen Sooner]

Can we hold off on the political bickering and whining for at least one day on this one? Plsthx.

[Scott D]

Exactly. Say reason there is no alcohol allowed on campus anymore.

Knee. Jerk.

yeah, that certainly has nothing to do with the increase of alcohol related deaths in colleges across the country :rolleyes:

[jk the sooner fan]

If Boren issued a statement that told students to "be vigilant" or something, then I would say he's doing something just to do something.

You can't stop something crazy like this from happening at school, church, home, the grocery store, the mall, whatever. But you can put barriers into place to deter and contain those actions.

boy this is a banner month for me, first i agree with bri on something, and now rhino...all within the span of 4 days! :)

[Petro-Sooner]

yeah, that certainly has nothing to do with the increase of alcohol related deaths in colleges across the country :rolleyes:

That wasnt the point of the post at all.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

You can't stop something crazy like this from happening at school, church, home, the grocery store, the mall, whatever. But you can put barriers into place to deter and contain those actions.

While I agree with you, When I was on Walker 8, the doors were always propped open so us guys could visit them girls in the other wing. We didn't have no fancy stinking badges back then, so I wonder if these doors will be alarmed if they are propped open.

Sucks to mingle and meet, but prudent.

What's worse, one or two people will ruin it for all colleges across the country...

[proud gonzo]

...so why are we complaining about the security doors to the dorms being locked because of this? I always thought they should have been locked ANYWAY. That always bothered me when i lived in the dorms.

[AllAboutThe'O']

Terrible, terrible news. Thoughts go out to the VT students, administration and families of the victims.

It's also more chilling and eerie knowing that the anniversaries of the Oklahoma City bombing and the Columbine shootings are coming up in a few days.

[SicEmBaylor]

...so why are we complaining about the security doors to the dorms being locked because of this? I always thought they should have been locked ANYWAY. That always bothered me when i lived in the dorms.

I agree they should be. All the doors at Baylor dorms remain locked and are only accessible by swiping your ID which only works if you actually reside in that dorm. So only actual residents of that particular dorm building can gain access.

[Mjcpr]

wow, the school is going to have to answer for not shutting it down after early this morning.

Yep. So they're saying 2 hours passed between the two events, the one at the dorm at 7:15am then in the engineering building 2 hours later? That seems like a lot of time to figure out that something happened and lock down the campus or something.....I wonder if they did anything like that?

[tommieharris91]

This is really scary. I am certainly more aware of what is going on around me right now, and I am almost scared to go to class in 2 hours. I don't think OU should have cancelled class today because of this, but to think something like this couldn't happen at OU is certainly crazy thinking.

Remember, April 19 is Thursday, too.

[picasso]

This is really scary. I am certainly more aware of what is going on around me right now, and I am almost scared to go to class in 2 hours. I don't think OU should have cancelled class today because of this, but to think something like this couldn't happen at OU is certainly crazy thinking.

Remember, April 19 is Thursday, too.
I always look for exits when I go somewhere in public. just sayin.

[CUinNC]

Yep. So they're saying 2 hours passed between the two events, the one at the dorm at 7:15am then in the engineering building 2 hours later? That seems like a lot of time to figure out that something happened and lock down the campus or something.....I wonder if they did anything like that?

I don't know if any campus police by itself could handle what was to be done - lockdown quickly an entire campus..

At VT - the dorm shooting was @ 7:15 or so, by the time Blacksburg police, or state police could get there in force, they were probably tied up @ the dorm area...

The second event happened about 1/2 - 3/4 miles away on the other side of campus...I know that soemone will get second-guessed, but while I've been thinking, there probably was time to hustle over there, maybe hide, and then start what happened in the Engr. building...

most tacticle teams of police are at least 30 minutes away from campus. The area is mostly rural and Blacksburg is not big either...

the counties have bigger head counts...

[royalfan5]

It sounds like the people who checked their email before classes didn't go to class this morning, and the people in class this morning hadn't checked their email and weren't aware of the first shooting before the second incident. Per Fox News.

[Osce0la]

Yep. So they're saying 2 hours passed between the two events, the one at the dorm at 7:15am then in the engineering building 2 hours later? That seems like a lot of time to figure out that something happened and lock down the campus or something.....I wonder if they did anything like that?
I read on one site earlier that a student said the campus had been locked down this morning, and that the second shooting happened as they were lifting the lockdown...that may be inaccurate, but it is what one student stated. I will see if I can find that article again...

[Sooner Among The Pack]

This is the epitome of a college student's worst nightmare. I've taken and taught classes in every size (from 5 to 300) at OU and NC State, and I've always wondered if, at some point, universities should lock the door to outside access in classrooms after classes start like some public high schools are doing. College campuses are, for the most part, way too open and accessible from a security standpoint.

[Osce0la]

Found it pasted on another board:

By SUE LINDSEY, Associated Press Writer 7 minutes ago

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing at least 21 people in the deadliest campus massacre in U.S. history. The gunman was killed, bringing to death toll to 22, but it was unclear if he was shot by police or took his own life.

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"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said Virginia Tech president Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

The name of the gunman was not immediately released, and investigators offered no motive for the attack. It was not immediately known if the gunman was a student.

FBI spokesman Richard Kolko in Washington said there was no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack, "but all avenues will be explored."

The shootings spread panic and confusion on campus, with witnesses reporting students jumping out the windows of a classroom building to escape the gunfire.

The bloodbath took place at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a coed dormitory that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building about 2,000 feet away, authorities said.

Police said they were still investigating the shooting at the dorm when they got word of gunfire at the classroom building.

After the first shots were fired, students were warned to stay indoors and away from the windows. But some students said they thought the precautions had been lifted by the time the second burst of gunfire was heard.

Some of the dead were students. One student was killed in the dorm, and the others were killed in the classroom, Virginia Tech Police Chief W.R. Flinchum.

Up until Monday, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage that took place in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire with a rifle from the 28th-floor observation deck. He killed 16 people before he was shot to death by police.

The massacre Monday took place almost eight years to the day after the Columbine High bloodbath near Littleton, Colo. On April 20, 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.

The deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard drove his pickup into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.

Founded in 1872, Virginia Tech is nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains of southwestern Virginia, about 160 miles west of Richmond. With more than 25,000 full-time students, it has the state's largest full-time student population. The school is best known for its engineering school and its powerhouse football team.

The rampage took place on a brisk spring day, with snow flurries swirling around the campus, which is centered around the Drill Field, a grassy field where military cadets — who now represent a fraction of the student body — once practiced. The dorm and the classroom building are on opposites sides of the Drill Field.

A gasp could be heard at a campus news conference when the police chief said at least 20 people had been killed. Previously, only one person was thought to have been killed.

Investigators from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives began marking and recovering the large number of shell casings and will trace the weapon used, according to an ATF official who spoke on condition of anonymity because local authorities are leading the investigation.

A White House spokesman said President Bush was horrified by the rampage and offered his prayers to the victims and the people of Virginia.

"The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," spokeswoman Dana Perino said

After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed, and classes were canceled through Tuesday. The university set up a meeting place for families to reunite with their children. It also made counselors available and planned an assembly for Tuesday at the basketball arena.

After the shooting began, students were told to stay inside away from the windows.

Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put.

"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again."

"We're all locked in our dorms surfing the Internet trying to figure out what's going on," Kanode said.

Maurice Hiller, 21, mechanical engineering student from Richmond, saw police and SWAT tem members with guns drawn going toward Norris Hall.

"This is something just totally beyond anybody's expectations," he said.

Police said there had been bomb threats on campus over the past two weeks by authorities but said they have not determined a link to the shootings.

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.

Last August, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus. The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.

[85Sooner]

Sad to say it but boortz had it right.

He states that he wishes "that some student in the dorm/classroom would have had a concealed weapon."

He has a point. All of these shootings seem to happen in places where guns are prohibited. It might not have stoppped all the violence but perhaps would have saved some lives.

[royalfan5]

There are now reports circulating that the shooter was a Radford College student who went to the dorm to kill his VT ex-gf. She wasn't there so he shot her roommate and the RA. He then shot up the engineering building because he didn't know for sure what room she was in, so he chained the doors to the building and went through classroom by classroom shooting, until he ended his own life. It is unknown if the ex-girlfriend is among the dead. This hasn't been confirmed yet, but is circulating and seems fairly plausible.

[picasso]

most of the shootings were engineering students. I heard them say on the tellie that the gunman had chain locked the doors to get out.

[royalfan5]

Sad to say it but boortz had it right.

He states that he wishes "that some student in the dorm would have had a concealed weapon."

He has a point. All of these shootings seem to happen in places where guns are prohibited. It might not have stoppped all the violence but perhaps would have saved some lives.
That doesn't mean another student with a concealed weapon would have been successful in stopping him either. If he went in shooting from behind or the front in a classroom, at a rate to kill or injure 60 people in a matter of minuets, would another student had time to draw and kill the shooter, before getting shot themselves. Sure it feels good to spout off about how more guns would have fixed things, but until more details are known, I would say it's a little premature. Plus, how many college students would actually be bother to pack heat in class? I'm guessing that number would be quite close to zero.

[royalfan5]

A report from inside one of the classrooms.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/6561733.stm

[mdklatt]

...so why are we complaining about the security doors to the dorms being locked because of this?

I don't have a problem with it, but if it's a good idea today, it would have been a good idea years ago. It will also be a good idea next year. Note that in Boren's e-mail, it also said the lockdown would continue "for the remainder of the semester". We shouldn't read anything into that, but how silly would it be if this was only a temporary thing?

[mdklatt]

Better to be reactionary than stupid.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Again, I don't think locking down the dorms is a bad idea, but it shouldn't have taken an incident 1500 miles away to realize that.

[Xstnlsooner]

Absolutely incredible! Could you imagine being in one of those classrooms!

[proud gonzo]

That doesn't mean another student with a concealed weapon would have been successful in stopping him either. If he went in shooting from behind or the front in a classroom, at a rate to kill or injure 60 people in a matter of minuets, would another student had time to draw and kill the shooter, before getting shot themselves. Sure it feels good to spout off about how more guns would have fixed things, but until more details are known, I would say it's a little premature. Plus, how many college students would actually be bother to pack heat in class? I'm guessing that number would be quite close to zero.I would.

And the point isn't just that a student could have a gun and stop the violence. The idea is that there would be the possibility of a student having a weapon. As things are now, everyone knows firearms are prevented on campuses. It means shooters know nobody can fire back.

But to answer your other question about would a student have time to draw and kill the shooter before getting shot? yes.

[yermom]

i could see at least giving intructors the ability... and if the guy has locked the doors and is going classroom to classroom, then for sure someone with a concealed weapon would be able to draw it

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I have always wondered, if you went through the effort to pass a concealed carry license, why can't you carry everywhere?

[85Sooner]

I would.

And the point isn't just that a student could have a gun and stop the violence. The idea is that there would be the possibility of a student having a weapon. As things are now, everyone knows firearms are prevented on campuses. It means shooters know nobody can fire back.

But to answer your other question about would a student have time to draw and kill the shooter before getting shot? yes.


I agree with you. I guaruntee that the gunman a least once had the thought go through his head that no one would be armed.

Just the prospect of a weapon being available is one of themost powerful deterents there is, whether there is a fire arm or not.

If guns were not treated as so much of a taboo, (like in the 40'50') everyone would be proficient the handling of fire arms.

[Mjcpr]

That's why you never had any shootings on Gunsmoke, 'cause everyone was armed back then.

[proud gonzo]

i could see at least giving intructors the ability... and if the guy has locked the doors and is going classroom to classroom, then for sure someone with a concealed weapon would be able to draw iti disagree--then the gunmen would know to target the teacher first.

Even if he wasn't going from room to room, it doesn't take long to draw a gun and shoot if you know what you're doing. I mean, you don't just stash a gun in your backpack or something so you have to go digging for it. They make jackets, purses, and holsters specifically designed for concealed carry and they're all easy to access.

[yermom]

That's why you never had any shootings on Gunsmoke, 'cause everyone was armed back then.


yeah, but how many single gunmen took out 30 people at once?

[oilmud]

Absolutely incredible! Could you imagine being in one of those classrooms!


Would rather be in one of them that had a conceal carry holder.

[Rusher]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

So, does anyone know if the girlfriend in question with the shooting was shot? Is the Asian dood really in custody as the photos imply.

[sanantoniosooner]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?
Drugs are banned, and they seem to still be around.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?

I may have to neg spek you for this...

[mdklatt]

Just the prospect of a weapon being available is one of themost powerful deterents there is, whether there is a fire arm or not.


Then why does the US have higher crime rates than countries with stricter gun control laws? If you're dumb (like most criminals) or crazy (like the VT shooter), it's not going to be a deterrent because...well, because you're dumb or crazy.

[yermom]

i disagree--then the gunmen would know to target the teacher first.

Even if he wasn't going from room to room, it doesn't take long to draw a gun and shoot if you know what you're doing. I mean, you don't just stash a gun in your backpack or something so you have to go digging for it. They make jackets, purses, and holsters specifically designed for concealed carry and they're all easy to access.

yeah, i thought of that as i said it... but at least they would have a chance, and there are still going to be more than one of them

[Petro-Sooner]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?

Oh good grief :rolleyes:

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

If it ain't guns it'll be something else.

Seems like when people reach this point they'll use whatever they need to to harm others.

*shrug*

[yermom]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?

yeah, so the whole country could be ripe for this sort of thing, instead of just schools

like black market guns are just going to go away

and if it wasn't a gun, it could be a car, a bomb...

[Mjcpr]

like black market guns are just going to go away...

Don Imus is inna house!

[picasso]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?
he could still get one if it was illegal. thus, the good folks would have to break the law to protect themselves.

I heard a girl on the news say her friend played dead to survive.

[Petro-Sooner]

Wheres Dean?

[sanantoniosooner]

I heard a girl on the news say her friend played dead to survive.
my wife does the same thing

[Tear Down This Wall]

The First and Second Amendments of the Constitution have both been bastardized by politicos of the 20th and 21st Century. There's no way possible that the Framers meant for the First Amendment to be so broadly construed as to include pornography. And, there is no way possible that they meant for the Second Amendment to give every man, woman, and child in the country access to firearms.

The extremes on both sides make the country worse off. F'em both. It's the abuses of the First and Second Amendments that make up most of the bullsh*t that occurs in America today.

[Xstnlsooner]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?

A perfectly effin stupid statement!

Who's this troll??

[Osce0la]

The First and Second Amendments of the Constitution have both been bastardized by politicos of the 20th and 21st Century. There's no way possible that the Framers meant for the First Amendment to be so broadly construed as to include pornography. And, there is no way possible that they meant for the Second Amendment to give every man, woman, and child in the country access to firearms.

The extremes on both sides make the country worse off. F'em both. It's the abuses of the First and Second Amendments that make up most of the bullsh*t that occurs in America today.
Point very well made...

[crawfish]

Then why does the US have higher crime rates than countries with stricter gun control laws? If you're dumb (like most criminals) or crazy (like the VT shooter), it's not going to be a deterrent because...well, because you're dumb or crazy.

I don't think that's completely true...

[yermom]

The First and Second Amendments of the Constitution have both been bastardized by politicos of the 20th and 21st Century. There's no way possible that the Framers meant for the First Amendment to be so broadly construed as to include pornography. And, there is no way possible that they meant for the Second Amendment to give every man, woman, and child in the country access to firearms.

The extremes on both sides make the country worse off. F'em both. It's the abuses of the First and Second Amendments that make up most of the bullsh*t that occurs in America today.

i'm going to ignore the 1st amendment thing here...

so who do you think should have access to firearms?

[Frozen Sooner]

I have always wondered, if you went through the effort to pass a concealed carry license, why can't you carry everywhere?

Statistics show that when someone other than the bandit is armed in a bank robbery the chances of a fatality to a teller or innocent bystander go up exponentially.

[proud gonzo]

there's a press conference going on:

31 dead at the engineering building, including the shooter
2 dead at the residence hall and many more injured.
They don't know yet (or won't say) if they think both shootings were the same person.

[GottaHavePride]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?

I don't say this often, but that is completely idiotic. Stopping the LEGAL sale of guns does absolutely nothing to prevent people from getting their hands on guns in ILLEGAL ways.

The reports said he lined people up and shot them. If someone there had had a gun I'm betting only two people would have died today. the first one the gunman shot, and then the gunman. Most people with concealed carry know that if faced with a gunman and you're carrying you don't immediately reach for yours to escalate the situation. But once the guy pops someone you've got nothing to lose - that's when you go for yours while everyone else is freaking out and distracting the shooter and drop the guy.

Hell, if I had been in the room I would've gone for the guy even without a gun. It's the same "nothing to lose" equation - I would assume at that point I'm going to get shot anyway,

[C&CDean]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?

Were you born stupid or did you fall on your head at some point in your life?

1. Even saying "guns should be banned altogether" qualifies you for the dumbass of the year award. If you're dumb enough to think it, you at least oughta be smart enough not to say it. Geez.

2. If someone who was armed - with a gun and the know-how to use it - happened to be around, I doubt the death toll would have gotten so high.

And now, we're going to see a bunch of reactionary panic bullcrap all over the country. Boren's locking down the dorms? BFD. Yeah, he's gotta do "something" but what he's doing is just plain silly.

This whole deal sucks, but the next person I see who types "guns are the blame" is gonna get a Dean-sized vacation. That type of stupidity will not be tolerated.

[mdklatt]

I don't think that's completely true...

Certainly not 100% true, but it's true enough. Prison certainly seems like a deterrent for crime, so why do we still have crime? Is it because each criminal weights the cost/benefit ratio of robbing a 7-11, factoring in things like the closure rate for robbery cases for the local PD, and decides that it's a sensible risk? Or is it because they're not that bright in the first place?

[picasso]

brilliant questions being asked at the presser.

[GottaHavePride]

Honestly, I don't know how both shootings could have been the same person. If you lock down campus because of a shooting, no way in hell would I lift the lockdown until I was 100% sure the shooter was removed as a threat. Doing otherwise would be idiocy on the part of Tech's administration.

[GottaHavePride]

Were you born stupid or did you fall on your head at some point in your life?

1. Even saying "guns should be banned altogether" qualifies you for the dumbass of the year award. If you're dumb enough to think it, you at least oughta be smart enough not to say it. Geez.

2. If someone who was armed - with a gun and the know-how to use it - happened to be around, I doubt the death toll would have gotten so high.

And now, we're going to see a bunch of reactionary panic bullcrap all over the country. Boren's locking down the dorms? BFD. Yeah, he's gotta do "something" but what he's doing is just plain silly.

This whole deal sucks, but the next person I see who types "guns are the blame" is gonna get a Dean-sized vacation. That type of stupidity will not be tolerated.

Right on, Dean.

Honestly the security doors in the dorms should have been locked down 24/7 a long time ago. It's way too easy for any pervert off the street to walk right into the dorms as it is.

[proud gonzo]

and i'm still confused about a bit... I think they're saying the shooter from the SECOND shooting is dead, but there's that picture of them arresting a dude. I don't know what's going on or what happened, but i can't imagine they're confused about it there. they just don't want to say. Somebody from the first shooting has to have a description of the guy or know who he was.

[mdklatt]

and i'm still confused about a bit... I think they're saying the shooter from the SECOND shooting is dead, but there's that picture of them arresting a dude. I don't know what's going on or what happened, but i can't imagine they're confused about it there. they just don't want to say. Somebody from the first shooting has to have a description of the guy or know who he was.

It reminds me of the Murrah bombing. The media is just regurgiating every bit of information they can get their hands on without bothering to verify the accuracy of it. Mass confusion.

[tommieharris91]

Anything else from the news conference?

[85Sooner]

This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether.

Please, to prevent a gunman, one must have a concealed weapon? That actually make it worse (especially if they end up shooting more victims). If that gunman don't have guns to begin with this incident wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what is he going to use? Shuriken?


Translation: = Lunacy

[royalfan5]

and i'm still confused about a bit... I think they're saying the shooter from the SECOND shooting is dead, but there's that picture of them arresting a dude. I don't know what's going on or what happened, but i can't imagine they're confused about it there. they just don't want to say. Somebody from the first shooting has to have a description of the guy or know who he was.
There's pictures of multiple asian males in handcuffs. I'm guessing that they were cuffing every asian man in black for awhile.

[Petro-Sooner]

There's pictures of multiple asian males in handcuffs. I'm guessing that they were cuffing every asian man in black for awhile.


But thats profiling. :rolleyes:

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

And profiling is wrong.

[TexasLidig8r]

Press: "Oh sir.. let me ask yet again, another even more of a dumbarse question, ok?"

Police Chief: "You sir/madam, are a dumbass. We're investigating and we're not going to jeapordize our investigation by telling you everything we have at this point, moron."

The press... :rolleyes:

[yermom]

But thats profiling. :rolleyes:

um, no, it's not

[picasso]

2 students were killed in their dorm room in the morning. 31 killed in the second shooting in the school building, not counting the gunman who shot himself.

administrators are trying to explain how difficult it is to inform 26,000 people about the incident. those already in class during the second shooting were locked down for safety.
cops never got in a shootout with the gunman.

[Hatfield]

this press conference is a joke and i can't believe an attorney for vt hasn't told them to stfu.

[picasso]

Press: "Oh sir.. let me ask yet again, another even more of a dumbarse question, ok?"

Police Chief: "You sir/madam, are a dumbass. We're investigating and we're not going to jeapordize our investigation by telling you everything we have at this point, moron."

The press... :rolleyes:
exactly.

[royalfan5]

I would.

And the point isn't just that a student could have a gun and stop the violence. The idea is that there would be the possibility of a student having a weapon. As things are now, everyone knows firearms are prevented on campuses. It means shooters know nobody can fire back.

But to answer your other question about would a student have time to draw and kill the shooter before getting shot? yes.
Would you have been packing before today?

Also I think it's pretty obvious that the shooter today was on a suicide mission, so I doubt the chance that somebody would have been armed would have deterred them that much. Depending on the set-up of a classroom, a shooter with 2 semi-automatic handguns with 15 round clips could have eliminated pretty much anybody before they had time to draw. Also how many college students before today would have been worried enough for their safety to strap up before they went class? I guessing that number is going to be negligible.

[KABOOKIE]

But profiling works.

[tommieharris91]

Lemme guess, Blacksburg police to press:

**** off, dip ****!

[Petro-Sooner]

um, no, it's not


Thats what, :rolleyes: , was for. :)

[royalfan5]

But thats profiling. :rolleyes:
I'm sure they will get sued by at least one.

[TopDawg]

And now, we're going to see a bunch of reactionary panic bullcrap all over the country. Boren's locking down the dorms? BFD. Yeah, he's gotta do "something" but what he's doing is just plain silly.


What would be a better thing to do?

[proud gonzo]

Would you have been packing before today?

Also I think it's pretty obvious that the shooter today was on a suicide mission, so I doubt the chance that somebody would have been armed would have deterred them that much. Depending on the set-up of a classroom, a shooter with 2 semi-automatic handguns with 15 round clips could have eliminated pretty much anybody before they had time to draw. Also how many college students before today would have been worried enough for their safety to strap up before they went class? I guessing that number is going to be negligible.yes.

do you shoot? I do. I will say it again: it does not take that much time to draw a gun and shoot someone. If he has time to shoot thirty rounds, I have time to put one between his eyes.

[KABOOKIE]

GD! Why do people here think it would take some Super-Marine to take out a punk thug with a gun? You guys need to realize when people are killed like this it’s not some bang-bang shoot’em up where the gunman is popping people left and right as they run out the door. Usually the gunman will walk in and kill his first victim by surprise. All others are usually shot as they cower under a desk or they’re trapped in a corner. The gunman will coolly walk up and shoot the victim from close range normally <5 feet. If someone, anyone had a gun they could have easily laid waste to this punk thug.

[oilmud]

GD! Why do people here think it would take some Super-Marine to take out a punk thug with a gun? You guys need to realize when people are killed like this it’s not some bang-bang shoot’em up where the gunman is popping people left and right as they run out the door. Usually the gunman will walk in and kill his first victim by surprise. All others are usually shot as they cower under a desk or they’re trapped in a corner. The gunman will coolly walk up and shoot the victim from close range normally <5 feet. If someone, anyone had a gun they could have easily laid waste to this punk thug.


And bingo was his name'o.

[Petro-Sooner]

GD! Why do people here think it would take some Super-Marine to take out a punk thug with a gun? You guys need to realize when people are killed like this it’s not some bang-bang shoot’em up where the gunman is popping people left and right as they run out the door. Usually the gunman will walk in and kill his first victim by surprise. All others are usually shot as they cower under a desk or they’re trapped in a corner. The gunman will coolly walk up and shoot the victim from close range normally <5 feet. If someone, anyone had a gun they could have easily laid waste to this punk thug.


Well put.

[yermom]

What would be a better thing to do?



Glocks for everyone ;)

seriously though, locking down the dorms because one person came in and shot two people?

he could have easily been let in by someone that recognized him, or even by the roommate or ex-gf if they didn't know what he was planning

now what about the classrooms? maybe if they locked them after class started? that is where most of the damage was done, of course that doesn't really do much when class is over

[Pricetag]

The reports said he lined people up and shot them. If someone there had had a gun I'm betting only two people would have died today. the first one the gunman shot, and then the gunman. Most people with concealed carry know that if faced with a gunman and you're carrying you don't immediately reach for yours to escalate the situation. But once the guy pops someone you've got nothing to lose - that's when you go for yours while everyone else is freaking out and distracting the shooter and drop the guy.

Hell, if I had been in the room I would've gone for the guy even without a gun. It's the same "nothing to lose" equation - I would assume at that point I'm going to get shot anyway,
You're making quite an assumption here.

First, you're assuming that the strapped citizen would have been among the first group targeted.

Second, you're assuming that he or she wouldn't have crapped his or her pants and ended up among the dead anyway.

I always have questions when things like this happen, when one or two people with small firearms are able to have control over such a large crowd. Why, at some point, didn't one or more of them decide, "F' it, I ain't going out like that, and bumrush the guy? Through sheer force of number, they'd be able to overwhelm the shooter with minimal causualties.

The answer is that I've never had a gun pointed at me. It's really easy for me to sit here and claim what I would have done, but I really have no idea. Knowing your way around a gun and/or having a concealed carry permit does nothing to change that.

[TopDawg]

GD! Why do people here think it would take some Super-Marine to take out a punk thug with a gun? You guys need to realize when people are killed like this it’s not some bang-bang shoot’em up where the gunman is popping people left and right as they run out the door. Usually the gunman will walk in and kill his first victim by surprise. All others are usually shot as they cower under a desk or they’re trapped in a corner. The gunman will coolly walk up and shoot the victim from close range normally <5 feet. If someone, anyone had a gun they could have easily laid waste to this punk thug.

How many of these have you witnessed?

[GottaHavePride]

Exactly. guy wasn't running around Matrix-style annihilating everything in sight. This guy took his time. He was looking for someone very specific, shooting people along the way when he couldn't find the one he was looking for.

And hell yes, if I had a concealed carry permit I would be carrying damn near at all times. And anyone with half a brain and a concealed carry permit would know that you have to practice retrieving your gun from wherever it's concealed so that in a situation exactly like this you can draw and fire quickly, without fumbling around obviously for your weapon.

[FaninAma]

A report from inside one of the classrooms.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/6561733.stm

That is a chilling account. It appears the death toll would have been higher if not for the female student looking out in the hall and the other students barricading the door with the table.

[yermom]

You're making quite an assumption here.

First, you're assuming that the strapped citizen would have been among the first group targeted.

Second, you're assuming that he or she wouldn't have crapped his or her pants and ended up among the dead anyway.

I always have questions when things like this happen, when one or two people with small firearms are able to have control over such a large crowd. Why, at some point, didn't one or more of them decide, "F' it, I ain't going out like that, and bumrush the guy? Through sheer force of number, they'd be able to overwhelm the shooter with minimal causualties.

The answer is that I've never had a gun pointed at me. It's really easy for me to sit here and claim what I would have done, but I really have no idea. Knowing your way around a gun and/or having a concealed carry permit does nothing to change that.



well, you have some training if you carry legally, and have probably thought about this a bit

i'd agree that GHP saying only 2 people would have died is a bit of an exaggeration ;)

[TexasLidig8r]

And at the end of the day, no one knows for sure how exactly they will react when staring death in the eyes. 1500 miles away, it is easy for us to say, if someone came into the room with a gun and began to shoot, we would calmly draw our concealed howitzer, take dead aim and shoot the mofo between the eyes.

Reality is often very, very different.

We weren't there. Chances are the vast majority of us have never and will never, face anything remotely similar.

It is not that unusual for a person to react not only under pressure, but when faced with the ultimate life/death consequence, very differently than that which they believe.

[proud gonzo]

now what about the classrooms? maybe if they locked them after class started? that is where most of the damage was done, of course that doesn't really do much when class is over yeah, though a lot of the classrooms here do lock automatically from the outside--that doesn't mean anything, though, if they prop the doors open.

[achiro]

practice retrieving your gun from wherever it's concealed
Please do this with the weapon UNloaded. TYIA

[TopDawg]

seriously though, locking down the dorms because one person came in and shot two people?

he could have easily been let in by someone that recognized him, or even by the roommate or ex-gf if they didn't know what he was planning

Yeah, it's not the perfect solution. But what if nobody at OU does anything and then some copy-cat walks into the dorms and shoots them up this afternoon? I think Boren would rather take the heat for doing something reactionary that did no good than take the heat for doing nothing and having it cost students their lives. Sure, it's a 99.5% chance that the former will be what plays out...but why risk it?


now what about the classrooms? maybe if they locked them after class started? that is where most of the damage was done, of course that doesn't really do much when class is over

Again, as you stated, this solution is just as flimsy. Yeah, maybe it's not a bad idea to do it just in case, but it's not going to solve the problem.

I agree with Dean that Boren had to do something, I'm just curious what he thinks would've been a better thing to do. I can't think of many other options.

[GottaHavePride]

You're making quite an assumption here.

First, you're assuming that the strapped citizen would have been among the first group targeted.

Second, you're assuming that he or she wouldn't have crapped his or her pants and ended up among the dead anyway.

I always have questions when things like this happen, when one or two people with small firearms are able to have control over such a large crowd. Why, at some point, didn't one or more of them decide, "F' it, I ain't going out like that, and bumrush the guy? Through sheer force of number, they'd be able to overwhelm the shooter with minimal causualties.

The answer is that I've never had a gun pointed at me. It's really easy for me to sit here and claim what I would have done, but I really have no idea. Knowing your way around a gun and/or having a concealed carry permit does nothing to change that.

Heh. Yeah, ok, there's no guarantee they would have been in the first group. I agree on your question about why not rush the guy. Of course, I've been in enough situations to know that I don't really get scared of much. Sure, I'll dodge wasps and such, but I don't think I even blinked when my tire blew out while I was going 75 down the highway. I think I definitely would have gone for the guy.

Oh, and Glocks are a TERRIBLE idea for concealed carry. There's no safety on the damn things - you're just as likely to shoot yourself with it putting it in the holster.

And about the locking doors thing - a lot of times professors don't even have keys to the rooms they teach in; the rooms get unlocked by staff in the morning and locked up again at night.

[Hamhock]

yes.

do you shoot? I do. I will say it again: it does not take that much time to draw a gun and shoot someone. If he has time to shoot thirty rounds, I have time to put one between his eyes.


:hot: :hot: :hot:

[85Sooner]

Then why does the US have higher crime rates than countries with stricter gun control laws? If you're dumb (like most criminals) or crazy (like the VT shooter), it's not going to be a deterrent because...well, because you're dumb or crazy.


Higher crime rates per se does not equal to gun related crimes.There are many additional factors including the light sentences regarding drug crimes etc.... here in the US) Most countries don't have the drug problems because the penalties are so severe. That said The further the populace gets away from the idea that they can protect themselves instead of waiting for the police to do it, the more criminals can take advantage of the situation.

[85Sooner]

Would you have been packing before today?

Also I think it's pretty obvious that the shooter today was on a suicide mission, so I doubt the chance that somebody would have been armed would have deterred them that much. Depending on the set-up of a classroom, a shooter with 2 semi-automatic handguns with 15 round clips could have eliminated pretty much anybody before they had time to draw. Also how many college students before today would have been worried enough for their safety to strap up before they went class? I guessing that number is going to be negligible.


I think you may find it more than you think. At least in this area of the country. Remember, alot of students are not from the 18-22 year old group. there are still alot that are older. I knew several who were "packing" in the late eighties.

[yermom]

Heh. Yeah, ok, there's no guarantee they would have been in the first group. I agree on your question about why not rush the guy. Of course, I've been in enough situations to know that I don't really get scared of much. Sure, I'll dodge wasps and such, but I don't think I even blinked when my tire blew out while I was going 75 down the highway. I think I definitely would have gone for the guy.

Oh, and Glocks are a TERRIBLE idea for concealed carry. There's no safety on the damn things - you're just as likely to shoot yourself with it putting it in the holster.

And about the locking doors thing - a lot of times professors don't even have keys to the rooms they teach in; the rooms get unlocked by staff in the morning and locked up again at night.

well, the Glock thing was mostly a joke, but they aren't exactly without safeties

and yeah, our ideas for keys and classrooms aren't exactly the brightest

[FaninAma]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry

States with right to carry have lower violent crime rates but higher property crime rates.

There would have been enough time for somebody to react. The report from the British source was about a female student looking down the hall and seeing the gunman walking down the hall and going into different rooms. They had time to barricade the door. Perhaps if one or two of them had a firearm the shooter may not have been able to proceed to the next room where they didn't or couldn't barricade the door.

[proud gonzo]

well, the Glock thing was mostly a joke, but they aren't exactly without safeties
there is an internal "safety" that is disabled when you pull the trigger, but it isn't an external safety that you can turn on and off. That means if you're holstering the gun and it gets caught on your belt or something, it goes off anyway. It happened a few years ago to a police officer in Wichita. He was at a gun shop trying out a concealed carry holster.

[oilmud]

The shooter would have a hard time getting off 32 kills when he has fire being returned.

[85Sooner]

Heh. Yeah, ok, there's no guarantee they would have been in the first group. I agree on your question about why not rush the guy. Of course, I've been in enough situations to know that I don't really get scared of much. Sure, I'll dodge wasps and such, but I don't think I even blinked when my tire blew out while I was going 75 down the highway. I think I definitely would have gone for the guy.

Oh, and Glocks are a TERRIBLE idea for concealed carry. There's no safety on the damn things - you're just as likely to shoot yourself with it putting it in the holster.

And about the locking doors thing - a lot of times professors don't even have keys to the rooms they teach in; the rooms get unlocked by staff in the morning and locked up again at night.

Not to mention unless you practice alot with a semi automatic, the jam on those suckers can be fatal. nothing like a good ole .38 or .357 or the likes.

[FaninAma]

The shooter would have a hard time getting off 32 kills when he has fire being returned.

That's what happened in the Texas shooting. Good ol' Texas rednecks who kept rifles in their pickup trucks kept the guy pinned down so he couldn't get off any further clean shots.

[mdklatt]

Higher crime rates per se does not equal to gun related crimes.There are many additional factors including the light sentences regarding drug crimes etc.... here in the US) Most countries don't have the drug problems because the penalties are so severe. That said The further the populace gets away from the idea that they can protect themselves instead of waiting for the police to do it, the more criminals can take advantage of the situation.

We have higher violent crime rates than most other countries do we not? Those crimes do have tough sentences (up to and including the death penalty), and are exactly the kind of crimes that an armed victim could do something about.

I'm not saying we should outlaw guns, I just don't that the deterrent factor is as important as people think.

[royalfan5]

I think you may find it more than you think. At least in this area of the country. Remember, alot of students are not from the 18-22 year old group. there are still alot that are older. I knew several who were "packing" in the late eighties.
It probably depends on the area of the country. Handgun ownership and carrying isn't that big here. I know one person that owns a handgun, and he just bought it as a collectors item. If people have guns here it is mostly for hunting. Hell we were about the last state to get concealed carry, and only about 75 people in the whole state applied for permits.

[proud gonzo]

Not to mention unless you practice alot with a semi automatic, the jam on those suckers can be fatal. nothing like a good ole .38 or .357 or the likes.I wouldn't necessarily say that's practice you need. That's a matter of shooting your gun enough to know if it tends to jam or not and getting the problem fixed, as well as cleaning and oiling the gun regularly.

[85Sooner]

double post sorry

[85Sooner]

We have higher violent crime rates than most other countries do we not? Those crimes do have tough sentences (up to and including the death penalty), and are exactly the kind of crimes that an armed victim could do something about.

I'm not saying we should outlaw guns, I just don't that the deterrent factor is as important as people think.


I see your arguement howver I have to disagree with one aspect. The sentences. Our sentences in this country are served in Country club setting compared to most. I worked in the penel system for 4 years and let me tell you that the folks inside do not see any sentence as a deterent. They do see someone with a gun as a threat. There are plenty of unarmed vicks out their. (their words not mine) Even the Death Penalty is only applied after 12-15 years of appeals.

In several countries you can get the death penalty for drunk driving or drug possession. While I think those penalties are a little harsh they are stageringly dichotomous to the penaties we have hear. (notice the difference between sentences and actual penalties)

[Rusher]

Heh, I guess there's no free speech in this forum. Different opinions = neg spek. So much for our constitution ;)

Yep, it's an old argument that "it's the gunner, not the gun" that is to blame. Come on, Japan manages to have a low crime rate due to stricter gun control. England almost has no murder rate for the same reason. You can say all you want about the freedom for firearms, but the fact is our country has one of the highest crime rate in the world involving concealed weapons.

Read this: http://www.guninformation.org/ (I know y'all gun lovers will say this is propaganda site and all, but it's all based on facts)

Sure black markets will emerge and all, but the bottom-line is: the current accessibility of guns really makes things easier for these psychos to get out there and do their killing sprees. It's like having a credit card. It makes you feel like you got more money than what you actually have, so you go out there on spending spree until you realize you can't pay the bills then file bankruptcy). People who don't have credit cards tend to do better managing their financial. Come on, if you got a Ferrari, wouldn't you be tempted to take it for a fast spin on the neighborhood, even though you know that you normally don't do it? If you got an SUV that can barely go 60 in 30 seconds, would you even bother to speed up? The point is, possessing a gun in some way does influences your decision-making even if you're the most sane person in the entire world. And tell that to those kids that start putting up stupid videos on Youtube because they happen to have a webcam lying around on their PC.

[GrapevineSooner]

Exactly. guy wasn't running around Matrix-style annihilating everything in sight. This guy took his time. He was looking for someone very specific, shooting people along the way when he couldn't find the one he was looking for.

And hell yes, if I had a concealed carry permit I would be carrying damn near at all times. And anyone with half a brain and a concealed carry permit would know that you have to practice retrieving your gun from wherever it's concealed so that in a situation exactly like this you can draw and fire quickly, without fumbling around obviously for your weapon.

If you were a Va Tech student, doing so would be an expellable offense.

I'll bet there's a groundswell of support to change this policy.

Or at the very least, a good number of students who will be willing to push the envelope.

[85Sooner]

I wouldn't necessarily say that's practice you need. That's a matter of shooting your gun enough to know if it tends to jam or not and getting the problem fixed, as well as cleaning and oiling the gun regularly.


Really? Is it really more a matter of care , If so I can understand that. When we were getting ours the advise we got was based on the fact that I know my wife would not shoot regularly so it was recommended to get a sixer. But your statement does go witht that fact as well.

[85Sooner]

Heh, I guess there's no free speech in this forum. Different opinions = neg spek. So much for our constitution ;)

Yep, it's an old argument that "it's the gunner, not the gun" that is to blame. Come on, Japan manages to have a low crime rate due to stricter gun control. England almost has no murder rate for the same reason. You can say all you want about the freedom for firearms, but the fact is our country has one of the highest crime rate in the world involving concealed weapons.

Read this: http://www.guninformation.org/ (I know y'all gun lovers will say this is propaganda site and all, but it's all based on facts)

Sure black markets will emerge and all, but the bottom-line is: the current accessibility of guns really makes things easier for these psychos to get out there and do their killing sprees. It's like having a credit card. It makes you feel like you got more money than what you actually have, so you go out there on spending spree until you realize you can't pay the bills then file bankruptcy). People who don't have credit cards tend to do better managing their financial. Come on, if you got a Ferrari, wouldn't you be tempted to take it for a fast spin on the neighborhood, even though you know that you normally don't do it? If you got an SUV that can barely go 60 in 30 seconds, would you even bother to speed up? The point is, possessing a gun in some way does influences your decision-making even if you're the most sane person in the entire world. And tell that to those kids that start putting up stupid videos on Youtube because they happen to have a webcam lying around on their PC.

There are alot more factors to this than can be discussed here. nevertheless We don't live there. See, its not just the black and white that you present. Like your statement about free speech. You have free speach and you said something. you did not get thrown in jail or killed (See Russia or Middle East for that).

There is no constitutional protection against unintended consequenses, just ask Ims about that one.

[yermom]

Really? Is it really more a matter of care , If so I can understand that. When we were getting ours the advise we got was based on the fact that I know my wife would not shoot regularly so it was recommended to get a sixer. But your statement does go witht that fact as well.

yeah, a revolver is generally going to be more reliable, lots fewer things to go wrong

most, if not all law enforcement is carrying semi-autos now though

[85Sooner]

If you were a Va Tech student, doing so would be an expellable offense.

I'll bet there's a groundswell of support to change this policy.

Or at the very least, a good number of students who will be willing to push the envelope.


Sad that it takes 30 + dead folks to make leadership listen to common sense.

BTW I don't see any shootings at Police acadamies (ok don't respond to that)

[GottaHavePride]

Rusher - I think Japan has a lower crime rate than we do from a whole whost of societal reasons, not just that they don't allow firearms. Also, if they're committing crimes with a weapon, the weapon isn't concealed anymore, IMO.

Grapevine - yeah, it would be an expellable offense. But - had anyone in that building had a concealed weapon and popped the guy before he could kill some more people, I doubt that person would be getting expelled right now.

85 - Yeah, from what I know revolvers are hands-down better from a reliability standpoint. They're what you want if you plan to just leave it in a drawer and never touch it until you need it. Semi-automatics are great if you plan to regularly practice with and maintain them.

[85Sooner]

yeah, a revolver is generally going to be more reliable, lots fewer things to go wrong

most, if not all law enforcement is carrying semi-autos now though


Well I would say they get a regular amount of usage at the range.

[proud gonzo]

Come on, Japan manages to have a low crime rate due to stricter gun control. no. you're neglecting to consider the MAJOR cultural differences. gun control is only one factor out of many. don't draw such sweeping conclusions, buddy.

[proud gonzo]

Really? Is it really more a matter of care , If so I can understand that. When we were getting ours the advise we got was based on the fact that I know my wife would not shoot regularly so it was recommended to get a sixer. But your statement does go witht that fact as well.yeah, that's what i mean. there are fewer moving parts, so there's less to get gunked up when you dont' use it regularly.

[Vaevictis]

Yeah, he's gotta do "something" but what he's doing is just plain silly.

Short of turning OU into a prison camp, anything he does is going to be pretty ineffectual. So he's just doing something to appear like he's doing something.

[Vaevictis]

I would also point out that the frequency of firearms in the population often has little to do with the rate of their use in crimes. Switzerland's citizenry has buttloads of firearms, but a considerably lower incidence of crimes involving firearms.

It's all about culture, really. Frankly, we Americans are some violent mother****ers.

[GottaHavePride]

It's all about culture, really. Frankly, we Americans are some violent mother****ers.

Any country that will start a riot over tea is indeed a bunch of violent bastards. ;)

[mdklatt]

Yep, it's an old argument that "it's the gunner, not the gun" that is to blame. Come on, Japan manages to have a low crime rate due to stricter gun control. England almost has no murder rate for the same reason.

You can't say for sure there's a cause-effect relationship between crime rates and gun laws. (Note that I was only talking specifically about the deterrent effect of guns before.) Countries that are more likely to have gun control laws are probably more likely to have an "orderly" population to begin with. And by orderly, I mean people that are already accustomed to doing what some authority figure tells them.





Read this: http://www.guninformation.org/ (I know y'all gun lovers will say this is propaganda site and all, but it's all based on facts)


Wait for 50 links to pro-gun sites also based on facts, and equally biased. Is there a neutral information source for control information? Maybe the CDC?




It's like having a credit card. ... People who don't have credit cards tend to do better managing their financial.

I have two credit cards, and pay off the balance each month. It is possible to be responsible with a credit card. It is possible to responsible with a gun. Nobody should ever be penalized for what they might do, but only what they've done, with certain exceptions. I don't think convicted murders should be allowed to own a gun, for example. But even that prohibition is based on something they've already done.


Come on, if you got a Ferrari, wouldn't you be tempted to take it for a fast spin on the neighborhood, even though you know that you normally don't do it?

So are we supposed to outlaw Ferraris? Where do you draw the line?

[proud gonzo]

Come on, if you got a Ferrari, wouldn't you be tempted to take it for a fast spin on the neighborhood, even though you know that you normally don't do it?dude, that's the worst comparison ever. That's like saying "come on, if you had a big, sharp kitchen knife, wouldn't you be tempted to stab somebody with it just once?" if you have the temptation to go shoot people as much as you have the temptation to drive fast, you've got problems even WITHOUT a weapon.

[mdklatt]

So he's just doing something to appear like he's doing something.

Exactly. He might be right about the dorms, but it's for the wrong reason. Maybe that shouldn't bother me so much, but it does.

(And this probably wasn't just Boren's doing, so we should be mentally substituting "the OU administration" when we see "Boren".)

[Pricetag]

Everyone is on Rusher's case, but adding more guns to the situation is every bit the knee jerk reaction that removing all guns is. The fact is that something really, really bad happened today, and we all wish we could do something about it. We all have our own ideas of how we would do that, but it can be pretty easily proven that we're all wrong. It isn't nearly as simple as we'd like it to be.

[proud gonzo]

Everyone is on Rusher's case, but adding more guns to the situation is every bit the knee jerk reaction that removing all guns is. he's saying "ban guns" in reaction to this. my advocating concealed carry is not in reaction to this incident.

[mdklatt]

he's saying "ban guns" in reaction to this.

I would bet he's been saying "ban guns" before today.

[85Sooner]

Everyone is on Rusher's case, but adding more guns to the situation is every bit the knee jerk reaction that removing all guns is. The fact is that something really, really bad happened today, and we all wish we could do something about it. We all have our own ideas of how we would do that, but it can be pretty easily proven that we're all wrong. It isn't nearly as simple as we'd like it to be.


Simple? no but i have yet to see this type of mass murdering occur anywhere that a gun can be carried. Its usually in a "no guns allowed establishment.ie: post office, school not always but most of the time. Coincidence? Maybe. but I personally believe not. Again this is coming from dealing with murderers rapist and the like for 4 years. Unless you have spent any time with the criminal mind its hard to believe how smooth the stuff rolls off their tounge.

[proud gonzo]

I would bet he's been saying "ban guns" before today.possibly so, but he did say "This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether."

[picasso]

less crime in other countries but nobody really wants to live there do they? if so, bye.

[TopDawg]

Everyone is on Rusher's case, but adding more guns to the situation is every bit the knee jerk reaction that removing all guns is. The fact is that something really, really bad happened today, and we all wish we could do something about it. We all have our own ideas of how we would do that, but it can be pretty easily proven that we're all wrong. It isn't nearly as simple as we'd like it to be.

Yeah. While I don't necessarily see eye-to-eye with Rusher, there are potential consequences of adding more guns.

First, perhaps the gunman would go in guns-a-blazing if he thought there were people packing heat. Maybe more end up dead in that scenario.

Second, people seem to be assuming that they'd know immediately what was going on. After the fact, it's easy for us to think we'd be pretty aware, but as soon as gunshots start going off, it's gonna get crazy. Suppose you're sitting with your back to the door and the gunman comes in and starts shooting. He gets 5 people before the student carrying a concealed weapon is able to get his (or her) gun and shoot. Then you turn around, see the student shooting at the gunman, and open fire on him (or her), thinking that's the gunman (or gunwoman). Now you just killed the hero, and you better hope someone doesn't confuse you for the shooter.

All I'm saying is that I agree with Pricetag. While there are several ways that adding more guns to the situation may make it better, there are several ways it could make it worse.

[mdklatt]

possibly so, but he did say "This is a perfect example of why guns should be banned altogether."

Well, would you say this a perfect example of why concealed carry should be allowed in more places?

Unless "Boren" has been mulling locking down the dorms for awhile now and is just using this as an excuse, then "he" is simply reacting to the situation.

[picasso]

less crime in England and less personal freedom. I'd rather choose my doctor, proctologist, etc., and keep the loaded shotgun in my house.

[mdklatt]

but nobody really wants to live there do they

Now that's just stupid...

[Vaevictis]

less crime in England and less personal freedom. I'd rather choose my doctor, proctologist, etc.

Falsehood. In Britain, you can go to doctors in public practice, or if you have money or insurance, you can choose your own doctor in private practice.

Your choice, subject to your ability to pay. Not so different from here, except if you don't have an ability to pay, you can always fall back on the national insurance paid doctors. Here, you're pretty much screwed unless your condition triggers the "must stabilize" laws.

(You're thinking Canda, where they go too far and say that in the name of equality, doctors can't take your money to give you priority.)

[mdklatt]

Simple? no but i have yet to see this type of mass murdering occur anywhere that a gun can be carried. Its usually in a "no guns allowed establishment.ie: post office, school not always but most of the time. Coincidence?

Probably. Despite the inevitable media-fueled hysteria, there are not enough mass murders like this to draw a meaningful conclusion.

To my knowledge, there has never been a mass shooting at a Six Flags park, and they all ban firearms, so firearms should be banned everywhere, right?

[picasso]

Now that's just stupid...
how so? if you want to give up more personal freedoms I doubt seriously you could get many people here to move.

my point was there seems to be more immigrants coming here "land of the free" than to the U.K. stupid as it sounds.

[Vaevictis]

my point was there seems to be more immigrants coming here "land of the free" than to the U.K. stupid as it sounds.

Of course, that choice only has to do with these perceived freedoms, and isn't at all related to other factors, right?

[85Sooner]

Probably. Despite the inevitable media-fueled hysteria, there are not enough mass murders like this to draw a meaningful conclusion.

To my knowledge, there has never been a mass shooting at a Six Flags park, and they all ban firearms, so firearms should be banned everywhere, right?


THere are alot of places that fire arms are banned that havn't had mass shooting. The point is that most of the mass shootings occur in places that ban guns. Its kinda like all trucks are vehicles but not all vehicles are trucks.

[picasso]

Falsehood. In Britain, you can go to doctors in public practice, or if you have money or insurance, you can choose your own doctor in private practice.

Your choice, subject to your ability to pay. Not so different from here, except if you don't have an ability to pay, you can always fall back on the national insurance paid doctors. Here, you're pretty much screwed unless your condition triggers the "must stabilize" laws.

(You're thinking Canda, where they go too far and say that in the name of equality, doctors can't take your money to give you priority.)
ok, I stand corrected a bit. so in your opinion which country provides the better health care? ours or Britain's?

[Vaevictis]

THere are alot of places that fire arms are banned that havn't had mass shooting. The point is that most of the mass shootings occur in places that ban guns. Its kinda like all trucks are vehicles but not all vehicles are trucks.

Most of the mass shootings occur in areas densely packed with people. These also tend to be the ones that ban firearms.

So is it the ban on firearms or the high population density?

[Vaevictis]

ok, I stand corrected a bit. so in your opinion which country provides the better health care? ours or Britain's?

That depends on how much money you can arrange to throw at the problem.

[picasso]

Of course, that choice only has to do with these perceived freedoms, and isn't at all related to other factors, right?
well of course there's more opportunity here, along with more space.

again, you take away our right to bear arms and we're lost to the crapper.

[picasso]

That depends on how much money you can arrange to throw at the problem.
well I'm not rich and I've had no problems.

[mdklatt]

my point was there seems to be more immigrants coming here "land of the free" than to the U.K. stupid as it sounds.

Do you think that has anything to do with the relative size of both countries, economic opportunities, immigration policies, etc? There are tons of immigrants in the UK as well as the rest of Europe...and most other industrialized countries, for that matter.

[Vaevictis]

well I'm not rich and I've had no problems.

... which basically means you've been able to arrange that enough money be thrown at the problems you've had. What's your point?

[picasso]

Do you think that has anything to do with the relative size of both countries, economic opportunities, immigration policies, etc? There are tons of immigrants in the UK as well as the rest of Europe...and most other industrialized countries, for that matter.
**** I just mentioned that. read some more.

[picasso]

... which basically means you've been able to arrange that enough money be thrown at the problems you've had. What's your point?
that I'm not wealthy and have no insurance yet I've some frickin how managed to get adequate health care. is that hard to follow?

damn guys.

[picasso]

Do you think that has anything to do with the relative size of both countries, economic opportunities, immigration policies, etc? There are tons of immigrants in the UK as well as the rest of Europe...and most other industrialized countries, for that matter.
and no I never thought of that bro. jeez.:rolleyes:

[Vaevictis]

that I'm not wealthy and have no insurance yet I've some frickin how managed to get adequate health care. is that hard to follow?

No, I was just curious if you had more than that, because, well, the fact that you personally have arranged for enough insurance is irrelevant to the question about which system is better.

EDIT: That is, if you're considering people other than yourself.

[Jerk]

Heh, I guess there's no free speech in this forum. Different opinions = neg spek. So much for our constitution ;)

Yep, it's an old argument that "it's the gunner, not the gun" that is to blame. Come on, Japan manages to have a low crime rate due to stricter gun control. England almost has no murder rate for the same reason. You can say all you want about the freedom for firearms, but the fact is our country has one of the highest crime rate in the world involving concealed weapons.

Read this: http://www.guninformation.org/ (I know y'all gun lovers will say this is propaganda site and all, but it's all based on facts)

Sure black markets will emerge and all, but the bottom-line is: the current accessibility of guns really makes things easier for these psychos to get out there and do their killing sprees. It's like having a credit card. It makes you feel like you got more money than what you actually have, so you go out there on spending spree until you realize you can't pay the bills then file bankruptcy). People who don't have credit cards tend to do better managing their financial. Come on, if you got a Ferrari, wouldn't you be tempted to take it for a fast spin on the neighborhood, even though you know that you normally don't do it? If you got an SUV that can barely go 60 in 30 seconds, would you even bother to speed up? The point is, possessing a gun in some way does influences your decision-making even if you're the most sane person in the entire world. And tell that to those kids that start putting up stupid videos on Youtube because they happen to have a webcam lying around on their PC.

I don't care what b.s. propaganda you lay out, or what other garbage you spew. If you ban guns, you're asking for Civil War II.

Come take them.

[Vaevictis]

Anyhow, IMO, I think we've probably driven this thread far enough off of its tracks (with respect to health care). Shall we get back to the intended topic?

[picasso]

No, I was just curious if you had more than that, because, well, the fact that you personally have arranged for enough insurance is irrelevant to the question about which system is better.

EDIT: That is, if you're considering people other than yourself.
actually it's not that far off from the fact that you mentioned money to fall back on. I have none, yet I've gotten quality care.

I'd say it's pretty good around here.

[Pricetag]

Most of the mass shootings occur in areas densely packed with people. These also tend to be the ones that ban firearms.

So is it the ban on firearms or the high population density?
That's not to mention the fact that the post office is a bad example because the shooters tend to be frustrated postal workers.

These shooting sprees never end well for the shooter. You'll never convince me that they think logically enough beforehand to consider whether or not concealed firearms are allowed. They don't give a rip.

[picasso]

ok, so I guess they're finally removing the bodies.

sad deal.

[85Sooner]

Most of the mass shootings occur in areas densely packed with people. These also tend to be the ones that ban firearms.

So is it the ban on firearms or the high population density?


Again, there are alot of densly packed areas that don't have mass shootings.

However molst mass shootings happen in densly packed areas.

See point one again.

[TopDawg]

Again, there are alot of densly packed areas that don't have mass shootings.

However molst mass shootings happen in densly packed areas.

See point one again.

But there are a lot of gun-free zones that don't have mass shootings also. I'm not sure I see where you're going.

[picasso]

I'm pretty sure mass murder has also been banned.

[jk the sooner fan]

How many of these have you witnessed?

i was at fort hood when the luby's incident occurred and i can tell you thats exactly how it happened

[Vaevictis]

Again, there are alot of densly packed areas that don't have mass shootings.

However molst mass shootings happen in densly packed areas.

See point one again.

Yeah, I get it.

I'm suggesting that there's not a causative link between banning firearms and mass murders happening, and I'm suggesting an alternative hypothesis. I'm saying that I suspect that the location of mass murders has more to do with the availability of victims than whether or not guns are allowed. I'm also suggesting that it's possible that your theory correlates because the root cause -- lots of people -- tends to correlate with both mass murders AND gun banning independently.

(and yes, I am somewhat munging the terminology here, but I think you get what I'm saying)

[TopDawg]

i was at fort hood when the luby's incident occurred and i can tell you thats exactly how it happened

Well I certainly don't doubt that it's happened that way many times. But it's probably also happened the guns-blazing way quite often too. I don't know though. I haven't done as much research on the subject to speak as definitively as KABOOKIE did. It kinda spooks me that he's so certain. ;)

[mdklatt]

THere are alot of places that fire arms are banned that havn't had mass shooting. The point is that most of the mass shootings occur in places that ban guns. Its kinda like all trucks are vehicles but not all vehicles are trucks.

Agreed, I'm just saying that these incidents are infrequent enough--thankfully--that you can't draw any conclusions from them.

We spend far too much effort and expense dealing with statistically unlikely threats while ignoring the stuff that is much more likely to cause us harm. Think of how many terrified college students around the country are going to hit the bars tonight and then drive home drunk. Silliness.

[85Sooner]

But there are a lot of gun-free zones that don't have mass shootings also. I'm not sure I see where you're going.


MOst of the shootings are in Gun Free zones.


The gunmen sure havn't shown a propensity under any circumstances to go off in a Gun show, a police department (outside of iraq) etc.....

Most of these criminals already know they are unstable. (Taking guns out opf the question and just applying human behavior)maybe not to the extent that a dr would classify them. But they feel like they are different. Mentally superior, physically inferior. They are the bullies of the world. Bullies generally don't go picking on the ones that will knock them upside the head. They go after the easiest target. Also happens behind bars. The newest members to come in generally start something with the weaker looking inmates to impress upon the bigger inmates that they are not going to come quietly. It works their as well.

Bullies are not dumb, just evaluate information differently than most. THey try to create a situation where they show the most power to the weakest population. This is no more true than in todays tragedy.

Generally armed bullies don't want to be shot at any more than you or I do. Usually the Suicide at the end comes from the realization that there is no where to go and combined with the homicidal frenzy their in pow it goes.

Notice their is not suicide notes or other notes to the remaining folks other than in a few rare cases. Those are usually the ones in which the planning has been going on for along time, not just a spur of the moment breakdown.

But thats just my (educated opinion) Would love to hear from anyone else who has spent a considerable amount of time with these types of folks.

[jk the sooner fan]

Well I certainly don't doubt that it's happened that way many times. But it's probably also happened the guns-blazing way quite often too. I don't know though. I haven't done as much research on the subject to speak as definitively as KABOOKIE did. It kinda spooks me that he's so certain. ;)

its common sense dude, if somebody starts shooting you take cover....even if you DO have a gun, you're going to make sure you can get a clean shot before you stand up and expose yourself to the world

if you dont have a gun, you lay there, cower and pray to god

[Vaevictis]

The gunmen sure havn't shown a propensity under any circumstances to go off in a Gun show, a police department (outside of iraq) etc.....

If the gunmen wanted to hit a place like that (ie, high probability of armed individuals inside), they'd use a truck bomb parked in front of the building.

I think maybe something like that has happened on occasion.

[85Sooner]

Agreed, I'm just saying that these incidents are infrequent enough--thankfully--that you can't draw any conclusions from them.

We spend far too much effort and expense dealing with statistically unlikely threats while ignoring the stuff that is much more likely to cause us harm. Think of how many terrified college students around the country are going to hit the bars tonight and then drive home drunk. Silliness.


I agree, there are probably more DUI deaths in a month than shootings all year long. Thank the ATF and your local governments for that. I gauruntee you that if it were like this. 1 DUI you lose the car . Period, no questions asked. no jail time, no nothing. (BTW doesn;t matter whos car it is so don't loan your car to someone who might do it). You would see DUI's # crash pardon the pun. Unfortunately the alcohol, restaurant and hotel lobby will never let this happen.

[picasso]

If the gunmen wanted to hit a place like that (ie, high probability of armed individuals inside), they'd use a truck bomb parked in front of the building.

I think maybe something like that has happened on occasion.
then we could ban truck bombs too.;)

[TopDawg]

MOst of the shootings are in Gun Free zones.

Yes, I know. I was just pointing out that what you were saying about densely packed places could be said about gun free zones as well. But then I realized you had said it too: "THere are alot of places that fire arms are banned that havn't had mass shooting. The point is that most of the mass shootings occur in places that ban guns. Its kinda like all trucks are vehicles but not all vehicles are trucks."

My bad. I was just confused because it seemed like you were trying to make your point by arguing the same thing about densely packed places.

And now I've succeeded in thoroughly confusing myself.

[soonerscuba]

We live in a ****ed up world. I mean really ****ed up.

[Vaevictis]

then we could ban truck bombs too.;)

... and then they'll try something else. I just don't think it makes a difference either way when attempting to deter someone who is intent on doing something like this. They'll find a way. You can't plan for every contingency.

(and yeah, I got the wink, I wanted to make that point ;) )

[picasso]

We live in a ****ed up world. I mean really ****ed up.
yes we do. beyond repair.

[85Sooner]

If the gunmen wanted to hit a place like that (ie, high probability of armed individuals inside), they'd use a truck bomb parked in front of the building.

I think maybe something like that has happened on occasion.


Precisely my point , but you don't pick up a ryder truck, amonium nitrate and the other ingredients without a hell of alot of planning.

[sanantoniosooner]

This would never have happened if the didn't steal the Hokie Indian name.

[Fraggle145]

The answer is that I've never had a gun pointed at me. It's really easy for me to sit here and claim what I would have done, but I really have no idea. Knowing your way around a gun and/or having a concealed carry permit does nothing to change that.

Let me just tell you that this right here sucks. And you dont react the way you wish you would have. For me it turned out to be the right reaction to not make a move. He left and we were fine. I still wish I woulda rushed him to this day, but I am just glad to be alive. My reaction might be different next time going through it once, hopefully it will never happen again. Aftre it happens to you it does change your perspective a bit.

[Vaevictis]

Precisely my point , but you don't pick up a ryder truck, amonium nitrate and the other ingredients without a hell of alot of planning.

shrug, bleach + ammonia in the HVAC system will do a pretty good job too, and you can get that from the janitor closet on site.

Really, a goodly chunk of these attacks have been pretty well planned out, if you'll recall. Guns allowed or guns banned, they'd have just found another way.

[TopDawg]

its common sense dude, if somebody starts shooting you take cover....even if you DO have a gun, you're going to make sure you can get a clean shot before you stand up and expose yourself to the world

if you dont have a gun, you lay there, cower and pray to god

No, I'm not talking about that. Of COURSE people are going to take cover. I was talking about how the gunman approaches it: killing one first and the rest later, or going in letting bullets fly. KABOOKIE seemed to be pretty certain that the former happens far more often than the latter. I'm not sure, but I'd imagine either is equally likely. Either way, my comment was more of a "you're kinda freakin me out, here" sorta thing.

[85Sooner]

Let me just tell you that this right here sucks. And you dont react the way you wish you would have. For me it turned out to be the right reaction to not make a move. He left and we were fine. I still wish I woulda rushed him to this day, but I am just glad to be alive. My reaction might be different next time going through it once, hopefully it will never happen again. Aftre it happens to you it does change your perspective a bit.

Serious question here.
Out of curiosity, do you think you would have reacted the same had the person fired? Or shot someone? Were you carrying?

[85Sooner]

shrug, bleach + ammonia in the HVAC system will do a pretty good job too, and you can get that from the janitor closet on site.

Really, a goodly chunk of these attacks have been pretty well planned out, if you'll recall. Guns allowed or guns banned, they'd have just found another way.


Yeah, maybe , but they havn't. the bomb attacks, in addition to the mass shootings are all against unarmed targets. Well the bombing was against an armed target. afed building with fbi on site. Well wait that goes right along with my point . we havn't seen any mass gun attacks on the armed places.

[Fraggle145]

Serious question here.
Out of curiosity, do you think you would have reacted the same had the person fired? Or shot someone? Were you carrying?

hard to say... maybe. if he woulda shot someone i.e. my gf then ya it is likely. I wasnt carrying, he pushed his way into our house after ringing the doorbell and my gf answered it. I dont own a gun, you have to have the balls to use it and well I dont know if i do. you have to be ready to use it if you are going to own one, IMO. Taking someone else's life isnt something that I have thought about enough to be sure that I could deal with it.

[Vaevictis]

Let me just tell you that this right here sucks. And you dont react the way you wish you would have. For me it turned out to be the right reaction to not make a move. He left and we were fine. I still wish I woulda rushed him to this day, but I am just glad to be alive. My reaction might be different next time going through it once, hopefully it will never happen again. Aftre it happens to you it does change your perspective a bit.

I've had a gun pulled on me. I froze for the first second or two also. I think that's pretty much the natural reaction for the someone who's never experienced it before.

[85Sooner]

I've had a gun pulled on me. I froze for the first second or two also. I think that's pretty much the natural reaction for the someone who's never experienced it before.

I have also but I know the guy and he was investigating a sound outside his house that just happened to be me seeing if he was home. .


same question to you.

[Vaevictis]

Yeah, maybe , but they havn't. the bomb attacks, in addition to the mass shootings are all against unarmed targets. Well the bombing was against an armed target. afed building with fbi on site. Well wait that goes right along with my point . we havn't seen any mass gun attacks on the armed places.

It only partially goes along with your point, being that your premise is based on the notion of unbanning the guns. It would wholly go along with your point if we made concealed carry mandatory ;)

If people know that there are guns there, or they think that there's a sufficiently high probability, they'll just adjust their tactics. If they don't think there's a sufficiently high probability, well, then there's no deterrence, really.

[mdklatt]

I've had a gun (probably more than one) pointed at me...by the NPD. :eek:

Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Vaevictis]

I have also but I know the guy and he was investigating a sound outside his house that just happened to be me seeing if he was home. .


same question to you.

Sumbitch starts shooting, I either run away or charge, depending on which I think is more likely to have a favorable outcome. I sure as hell ain't just gonna sit for it.

[william_brasky]

I just watched the press conference with the University President and some Police Chief.

The press sucks.

Almost every question seemed to be a jab at inadequate security.

[sanantoniosooner]

What happened there could happen almost anywhere.