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KStatePike
4/4/2007, 10:05 PM
This story actually carries more weight than any of us up in Manhattan thought. If true, it would give our program a death blow.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/6644620

Paperclip
4/4/2007, 10:17 PM
So, like every year since Mitch Richmond left other than this one.

birddog
4/4/2007, 10:31 PM
i'd kinda like to see him stick around the league for a while. i imagine he and booby would end up throwing down one day.

SoonerShark
4/5/2007, 12:33 AM
I hope tHuggins leaves. He has the look and aura of a small time organized crime figure. I expect him to start hijacking cigarette delivery trucks. Instead of Robert DeNiro we get Bob DeHuggins.

crawfish
4/5/2007, 11:15 AM
That was always the danger in hiring Huggins. You were always a temporary stop.

Frozen Sooner
4/5/2007, 11:46 AM
I would laugh so hard my taint exploded.

Nothing against KSU, mind you, I'd just think it was funny.

OSUAggie
4/5/2007, 01:24 PM
That was always the danger in hiring Huggins. You were always a temporary stop.

I don't think many people would have thought that they'd be a temporary stop before West Virginia, though.. I guess it is his alma mater, but I would think K-State is a better basketball job than WVU... maybe not, though.

MojoRisen
4/5/2007, 01:29 PM
I hope tHuggins leaves. He has the look and aura of a small time organized crime figure. I expect him to start hijacking cigarette delivery trucks. Instead of Robert DeNiro we get Bob DeHuggins.


Thats why I like huggins- he can recruit and coach.

AllAboutThe'O'
4/5/2007, 01:33 PM
Maybe if Huggins leaves, KSU can lure Dana Altman back to Manhattan.

KStatePike
4/5/2007, 02:32 PM
we've been swindled by a man in a black suit, and cowboy boots.

huggins is gone

OSUAggie
4/5/2007, 02:34 PM
Damn... Tough blow. What're Walker and Beasley gonna do?

KStatePike
4/5/2007, 02:38 PM
if they want out, we should let them out. It sucks, but it would be the right thing to do.

there's talk up here about having a bonfire friday night with Huggins shirts/paraphenelia and mailing him the ashes.

Boomer.....
4/5/2007, 02:40 PM
Looks like it is a done deal:

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/6648384

sooner518
4/5/2007, 02:44 PM
dang they had some sweet recruits comin in. I imagine theyre gonna pull a REyolds/James/Mayfield on KSU

soonervegas
4/5/2007, 02:55 PM
Hmmmmm high level recruits leaving....although I bet Huggins doesn't mind at all if they follow him to WV.

crawfish
4/5/2007, 02:59 PM
I know it hurts, but you're well rid of that scumbag.

Taxman71
4/5/2007, 02:59 PM
KState has many of the same problems in basketball that the pukes in stillwater have in football. Going head to head against an in-state top 5 traditional power means they get the leftovers and are always in the shadows.

Also, both schools have extrememly annoying fans. No offense.

OSUAggie
4/5/2007, 03:01 PM
K-State basketball is much bigger than OSU football (historically speaking).

william_brasky
4/5/2007, 03:09 PM
just heard.

I, for one, am glad. He was gonna create a monster up there.

Frozen Sooner
4/5/2007, 03:21 PM
My taint has officially exploded.

PrideTrombone
4/5/2007, 03:31 PM
HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
(breath)
AHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

Sucks for KSU, but I was really worried about what Huggy Bear could do up there. I'm not sure many other people could recruit the way he would've been able to there. I'm relieved.

william_brasky
4/5/2007, 04:00 PM
My taint has officially exploded.

I may have just thrown up a little bit.

King Crimson
4/5/2007, 04:38 PM
i don't have any special love for KSU or KSU fan, but that is gonna be tough for them. KSU had a chance to get back in the national scene and be a conference player....but, now, who knows?

but hiring Huggy was a deal with the devil in the first place.

stoops the eternal pimp
4/5/2007, 05:20 PM
its the same thing Knight would have done to TT if any school was interested in a bipolar basketball coach who wont take his meds

Sooner24
4/5/2007, 09:38 PM
Even without a coach KSU is better off then OSU.

Ardmore_Sooner
4/5/2007, 09:39 PM
Even without a coach KSU is better off then OSU.

BWHAHAHA! :D:D:D

KStatePike
4/5/2007, 10:08 PM
I've gotta say, to the guys on here who warned us about hiring Huggins, I guess you were absolutely right. We defended the guy to the death from people bashing him and helped him restore a little moral credibility, and he gives us the finger and walks away. I was afraid he might get a little drunk and say some stupid stuff to a waitress, or not graduate many of his players, but I don't think anybody expected him to pull something like this. Be careful who you trust, huh?

PrideTrombone
4/5/2007, 10:55 PM
I've gotta say, to the guys on here who warned us about hiring Huggins, I guess you were absolutely right. We defended the guy to the death from people bashing him and helped him restore a little moral credibility, and he gives us the finger and walks away. I was afraid he might get a little drunk and say some stupid stuff to a waitress, or not graduate many of his players, but I don't think anybody expected him to pull something like this. Be careful who you trust, huh?

Yeah, taking a job at your alma mater is a lot worse than drunkenly mouthing off to people or not taking his job as a mentor seriously. Great priorities there.

badger
4/6/2007, 09:08 AM
lol k-state...
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2827212

This is what they get for naming the WRONG coach Big 12 Coach of the Year. No respect=no stay :D

Ideas for how to bring K-State up to speed in basketball:

1- Get a big carpet for players to run out on, like West Virginia.
2- Get a real mascot (like most big programs), not just a mascot head.
3- Adopt a hand thing (like the Gator chop a la Florida, the V thing a la USC).
4- Convince a savior of a coach to turn around your program like your football team did.
5- Have students commit pranks to Kansas University to make it more of a rivalry... add a little brown jug or "Stolen Sunflower" statue if necessary.
6- PAY YOUR RECRUITS. Haven't you seen Blue Chips or He Got Game? That's the only way to convince these guys not to go to other schools!
7- Finally, emphasize the K in KSU. Dookie V might accidentally mistake you for Coach K's team and start the hype machine.

royalfan5
4/6/2007, 12:11 PM
lol k-state...
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2827212

This is what they get for naming the WRONG coach Big 12 Coach of the Year. No respect=no stay :D

Ideas for how to bring K-State up to speed in basketball:

1- Get a big carpet for players to run out on, like West Virginia.
2- Get a real mascot (like most big programs), not just a mascot head.
3- Adopt a hand thing (like the Gator chop a la Florida, the V thing a la USC).
4- Convince a savior of a coach to turn around your program like your football team did.
5- Have students commit pranks to Kansas University to make it more of a rivalry... add a little brown jug or "Stolen Sunflower" statue if necessary.
6- PAY YOUR RECRUITS. Haven't you seen Blue Chips or He Got Game? That's the only way to convince these guys not to go to other schools!
7- Finally, emphasize the K in KSU. Dookie V might accidentally mistake you for Coach K's team and start the hype machine.
In regards to No.%, The KSU students throwing live chickens at the Jayhawk players inside Bramlage isn't enough for you?

badger
4/6/2007, 11:38 PM
In regards to No.%, The KSU students throwing live chickens at the Jayhawk players inside Bramlage isn't enough for you?
hmm... no. I say send them a video of a kitty hunting a bird. :D

nature dictates that cats always win.... unless birds fly higher than then cats can jump... toward the basket... over and over...

shoot.

Scott D
4/7/2007, 09:17 AM
So I've heard that K-State will lose at least two verbal commitments by the end of next week including the kid who was the MVP of that McDonalds All-American game.

badger
4/7/2007, 10:04 AM
So I've heard that K-State will lose at least two verbal commitments by the end of next week including the kid who was the MVP of that McDonalds All-American game.
i'd feel bad for them... but... been there, done that :)

lexsooner
4/7/2007, 10:16 AM
Does it bother anyone we are in a conference which welcomes coaches with conduct/moral problems like Huggins, Knight, Sutton, with open arms?

royalfan5
4/7/2007, 10:26 AM
Does it bother anyone we are in a conference which welcomes coaches with conduct/moral problems like Huggins, Knight, Sutton, with open arms?
Only if they don't win basketball games. College sports in inherently shady, and it just goes with the territory imo.

Frozen Sooner
4/7/2007, 11:09 AM
So I've heard that K-State will lose at least two verbal commitments by the end of next week including the kid who was the MVP of that McDonalds All-American game.

They're already signed. If KSU doesn't let them out, they're going to have to petition to the NCAA.

KStatePike
4/7/2007, 12:17 PM
Actually Beasley and Walker are sticking around. The 2 guys who had the main connections with all the recruits are still here and have been hired. That was done pretty quickly.

So here's the situation now, we hired the assistant coach Frank Martin, and promoted Dalonte Hill (who is solely credited for getting Beasley) to assistant. Bill Walker confirmed yesterday that he isn't going anywhere. And a 2 of our other recruits stated that they are still committed to us. So we might be ok, or at least we stopped the bleeding. Who knows, if we can keep building some momentum, maybe it was a good thing getting rid of someone like Huggins.

Frozen Sooner
4/7/2007, 01:02 PM
Actually Beasley and Walker are sticking around. The 2 guys who had the main connections with all the recruits are still here and have been hired. That was done pretty quickly.

So here's the situation now, we hired the assistant coach Frank Martin, and promoted Dalonte Hill (who is solely credited for getting Beasley) to assistant. Bill Walker confirmed yesterday that he isn't going anywhere. And a 2 of our other recruits stated that they are still committed to us. So we might be ok, or at least we stopped the bleeding. Who knows, if we can keep building some momentum, maybe it was a good thing getting rid of someone like Huggins.

And for what it's worth, Scottie Reynolds and Damoin James were both still "committed" for a couple of days after Capel was hired.

KStatePike
4/7/2007, 01:41 PM
And for what it's worth, Scottie Reynolds and Damoin James were both still "committed" for a couple of days after Capel was hired.

We hired from within, and the guys who were responsible for recruiting everybody are still here. Its a little bit different than OU's situation last year. Its become a situation where the head has been cut off, but the body is still alive.

lexsooner
4/7/2007, 04:35 PM
Only if they don't win basketball games. College sports in inherently shady, and it just goes with the territory imo.

That is true to a certain degree. However, I think there are more limitations on slimey behavior up in the Big 10, and maybe on the coasts. I'm not a Big 10 fan at all, but I really don't think a Big 10 school would have taken Sutton, Huggins after their scandals. When you go further south to the Big XII and SEC, however, it's mostly about winning at any cost.

The consensus in Lexington after Tubby went to Minnesota is he is a better fit in that conference. The word has always been he has refused to engage in some of the shady recruiting tactics, which has hurt his ability to get the top recruits to UK. He is genuinely a nice, decent man, and he probably does fit in better in the Big 10. UK fans don't care about nice. They give lip service to it, but they what they really want are final fours and national titles.

I am still predicting a sex scandal in Lexington with Billy G. He even looks kind of shady.

Kray
4/7/2007, 05:12 PM
...but I really don't think a Big 10 school would have taken Sutton, Huggins after their scandals. When you go further south to the Big XII and SEC, however, it's mostly about winning at any cost.

That's ironic and easily disproven: Indiana took Sampson knowing full well that he'd cheated here at OU and screwed us royally. Don't kid yourself. No school, or very few are all about the ethics. If OSU hadn't hired Eddie Sutton in 1990, do you have any doubt that any number of Big 10 schools wouldn't have wanted him?

Frozen Sooner
4/7/2007, 05:19 PM
Yes, because making extra phone calls is absolutely comparable to Fed Ex envelopes full of cash and the coach's son taking exams for players. Compared to the situation Eddie left Kentucky in, Sampson left us in the tall cotton.

royalfan5
4/7/2007, 05:21 PM
That is true to a certain degree. However, I think there are more limitations on slimey behavior up in the Big 10, and maybe on the coasts. I'm not a Big 10 fan at all, but I really don't think a Big 10 school would have taken Sutton, Huggins after their scandals. When you go further south to the Big XII and SEC, however, it's mostly about winning at any cost.

The consensus in Lexington after Tubby went to Minnesota is he is a better fit in that conference. The word has always been he has refused to engage in some of the shady recruiting tactics, which has hurt his ability to get the top recruits to UK. He is genuinely a nice, decent man, and he probably does fit in better in the Big 10. UK fans don't care about nice. They give lip service to it, but they what they really want are final fours and national titles.

I am still predicting a sex scandal in Lexington with Billy G. He even looks kind of shady.
Lou Henson survived scandal at Illinois as well. And it seems that Gillespie is married to basketball more than anything. I bet as long as he wins he can **** whomever he wants in Kentucky as long as they are a woman and of age. Besides since when has sexual morality been a requiment to coach basketball.

Kray
4/7/2007, 05:32 PM
Yes, because making extra phone calls is absolutely comparable to Fed Ex envelopes full of cash and the coach's son taking exams for players. Compared to the situation Eddie left Kentucky in, Sampson left us in the tall cotton.

Too bad that's not what I was trying to say. Sampson cheated, knowing full well he was doing it. I don't think it's as serious as what happened at Kentucky, but it will harm OU and didn't seem to harm Sampson much. Sutton left Kentucky in awful shape, but it never was proven that he put the money in the envelopes; in fact the NCAA cleared him. I don't believe he was innocent, but the NCAA must have.

But put that aside, since I wasn't trying to say the situations or the cheating was at the same level. What I was saying is that Eddie Sutton could have gotten a job in the Big 10 in 1990. He could have probably got an ACC job, or a Pac-10 job. Do you have any doubt of that? Coaches do not seem to get any stench on them over the cheating, but the schools they leave behind sure do.

OSUAggie
4/7/2007, 07:52 PM
Yes, because making extra phone calls is absolutely comparable to Fed Ex envelopes full of cash and the coach's son taking exams for players. Compared to the situation Eddie left Kentucky in, Sampson left us in the tall cotton.

Come on Mike.

He was cleared by the NCAA. It was the boosters who made that situation what it is. You sound like a UK fan here blaming Sutton for what they did themselves.

....................

I know you guys hate Knight, but he's one of (if not the) greatest coaches of all time, and I respect the way he coaches the game moreso than any other coach. I don't know where he went wrong with Coach K. Hiring him is a no-brainer.

Bob Huggins is what he is. He definitely rubs people the wrong way, but it's not like K-State hired Jim Harrick or anything when they got him. I think K-State made the right move by hiring within the staff, and they won't drop off a helluva lot in the next 5 years.

royalfan5
4/7/2007, 08:34 PM
Come on Mike.

He was cleared by the NCAA. It was the boosters who made that situation what it is. You sound like a UK fan here blaming Sutton for what they did themselves.

....................

I know you guys hate Knight, but he's one of (if not the) greatest coaches of all time, and I respect the way he coaches the game moreso than any other coach. I don't know where he went wrong with Coach K. Hiring him is a no-brainer.

Bob Huggins is what he is. He definitely rubs people the wrong way, but it's not like K-State hired Jim Harrick or anything when they got him. I think K-State made the right move by hiring within the staff, and they won't drop off a helluva lot in the next 5 years.
Tulsa thought they made the right move by hiring within the staff with John Phillips and we know how that turned out. Their new coach was run out of high school ball because of corruption and has scant D-1 experience, especially at higher levels. He is known as strictly a recruiter, and how many recruiting only head coaches have been successful leading D-1 programs?

Scott D
4/7/2007, 08:37 PM
Too bad that's not what I was trying to say. Sampson cheated, knowing full well he was doing it. I don't think it's as serious as what happened at Kentucky, but it will harm OU and didn't seem to harm Sampson much. Sutton left Kentucky in awful shape, but it never was proven that he put the money in the envelopes; in fact the NCAA cleared him. I don't believe he was innocent, but the NCAA must have.

But put that aside, since I wasn't trying to say the situations or the cheating was at the same level. What I was saying is that Eddie Sutton could have gotten a job in the Big 10 in 1990. He could have probably got an ACC job, or a Pac-10 job. Do you have any doubt of that? Coaches do not seem to get any stench on them over the cheating, but the schools they leave behind sure do.

That's because one of Sutton's assistants took the fall for the Chris Mills and Shawn Kemp fiasco. Sutton hooked him up later on for taking the fall.

royalfan5
4/7/2007, 08:39 PM
That's because one of Sutton's assistants took the fall for the Chris Mills and Shawn Kemp fiasco. Sutton hooked him up later on for taking the fall.
Didn't Scott Sutton take the ACT for recruits to get them eligible too?

Frozen Sooner
4/7/2007, 08:42 PM
Too bad that's not what I was trying to say. Sampson cheated, knowing full well he was doing it. I don't think it's as serious as what happened at Kentucky, but it will harm OU and didn't seem to harm Sampson much. Sutton left Kentucky in awful shape, but it never was proven that he put the money in the envelopes; in fact the NCAA cleared him. I don't believe he was innocent, but the NCAA must have.

But put that aside, since I wasn't trying to say the situations or the cheating was at the same level. What I was saying is that Eddie Sutton could have gotten a job in the Big 10 in 1990. He could have probably got an ACC job, or a Pac-10 job. Do you have any doubt of that? Coaches do not seem to get any stench on them over the cheating, but the schools they leave behind sure do.

It may not be what you were trying to say, but it was strongly implied by your words. As it happens, yes, I do doubt that Eddie Sutton could have gotten an upper-echelon ACC or Big 10 job in 1990.

Aggie, spin it all you want, but Eddie's rep is hardly clean.

OSUAggie
4/7/2007, 10:45 PM
Tulsa thought they made the right move by hiring within the staff with John Phillips and we know how that turned out. Their new coach was run out of high school ball because of corruption and has scant D-1 experience, especially at higher levels. He is known as strictly a recruiter, and how many recruiting only head coaches have been successful leading D-1 programs?

Why is John Phillips the rule in this situation? He was a terrible basketball coach. Tulsa made the wrong hire. I was saying, in the case for K-State, that it was good in order to keep the recruits and/or guys that were already on campus from following Huggy to Morgantown. Whether or not they're good basketball coaches, I have no idea, but I think it was the right move to at least keep the studs they have in there now or that are coming in next year.

OSUAggie
4/7/2007, 10:46 PM
Aggie, spin it all you want, but Eddie's rep is hardly clean.

I'm not saying that Eddie has a clean rep, but the Kentucky situation was definitely not something that he orchestrated.

Scott D
4/8/2007, 09:29 AM
I'm not saying that Eddie has a clean rep, but the Kentucky situation was definitely not something that he orchestrated.

what is it that probation happy aggies always say. "If the coaching staff was involved (which it was) then the head coach knew about it."

Eddie certainly didn't object to it being done, and while the NCAA never found his hand actually in the cookie jar, he'd likely swept some of the crumbs out of that jar. About the only way Eddie's Kentucky reign could have been any more crooked would have to been to have a point shaving scandal.

royalfan5
4/8/2007, 09:33 PM
Why is John Phillips the rule in this situation? He was a terrible basketball coach. Tulsa made the wrong hire. I was saying, in the case for K-State, that it was good in order to keep the recruits and/or guys that were already on campus from following Huggy to Morgantown. Whether or not they're good basketball coaches, I have no idea, but I think it was the right move to at least keep the studs they have in there now or that are coming in next year.
Only an Aggy would think it would be a good idea to give a guy a 5 year contract to keep guys that who will be there for 1 year. Who says they can recruit when they aren't bringing guys to play for Huggins but for themselves? Especially when they have virtually no track record at the Division I level?

skycat
4/11/2007, 10:24 AM
Only an Aggy would think it would be a good idea to give a guy a 5 year contract to keep guys that who will be there for 1 year. Who says they can recruit when they aren't bringing guys to play for Huggins but for themselves? Especially when they have virtually no track record at the Division I level?

I was travelling over the weekend so I didn't get a chance to respond to this thread, so here it goes.

Any other move besides hiring Martin and Hill, would have been mind-blowingly stupid. Huggins forced our hand. This is not only a very good class coming in, it is also a very large class.

This came very late in the game for hiring new coaches, and even later in the recruiting process. I can't think of a single name out there that would have managed to save the recruiting class. Had Beasley, Sutton, and Pullen all tried to get out of their LOIs it is probable that Walker would have transfered (or gone to play in Europe for a year).

At that point K-State would have been left with a team that could easily have been staring 0-16 squarely in the face. And it would have taken a fantastic, lightning in a bottle hire to have recovered from that.

As it is, our new coach will have two lottery picks available to help smooth out the on the job learning that is going to have to happen. These two guys are proven recruiters (note that the only recruit that had closer ties to Huggins than to Martin or Hill was Walker, and he'd have to sit a year if he were to transfer), so the hope for us is that these guys will use whatever success that our incoming class gives them as a springboard into the future.

It doesn't hurt that in addition to Beasley and Walker, are three guys (Sutton, Pullen, and Brown), who by themselves would have been one of the best classes to come to K-State in the last 20 years, and those guys won't be leaving after next year unless another disaster strikes.

As for Huggins, this is a real kick to the junk. Yeah, the guy had armfulls of baggage, but what were the odds of him leaving after one year, with the nations best recruiting class coming in? Not real high. The guy had plenty of chances to leave Cincy for greener pastures (including WVU and the NBA) but never took them. I would have bet and lost a large sum of cash that he would have stayed in Manhattan for at least 4 years.

The fact is, there weren't that many programs in the near term that would have wanted Huggins, that Huggins would have coveted over K-State. West Virgina was on a very short list. Even so, had Huggins stayed between 3 and 5 years and planted us firmly back on the basketball landscape with a couple of top 3 conference finishes and a Sweet 16 or Elite 8, I would have been grateful.

As it is, he left after one year, a second round NIT loss, tried to take our best incoming recruits with him, and left us with no viable options to replace him but his rather inexperienced assistant.

As bad as the last 20 years of K-State basketball have been (it should be noted that in 1988 K-State was very close to being on even footing with KU historically, K-State does have a strong basketball tradition, even if it is starting to become ancient history), Huggins was worth the risk. And if Martin makes it work, maybe it all works out on the end. But I won't be rooting for Huggins anytime soon.

crawfish
4/11/2007, 11:19 AM
All of that is assuming you keep your recruits. As we learned last year, that can be very tough to do...

skycat
4/11/2007, 11:36 AM
All of that is assuming you keep your recruits. As we learned last year, that can be very tough to do...

You're right. And we won't know for sure whether they're coming until the start of classes next year. Make no mistake, Martin and Hill were hired quickly for that very purpose. As of today, Beasley (and Beasley's mom) and Walker have both said they're coming back.

Beasley was going to follow Dalonte Hill to UNC-Charlotte before Huggins hired him away to K-State. It seems reasonable to think that he'll stay committed to K-State with Hill in Manhattan. I don't think that Martin would have gotten the job without locking Hill in as an assistant.

Sutton (4 star forward) has clearly stated that he wants to go where Beasley goes. The two 3 star guards aren't as important for immediate success, although vital for us long term, are still locked in as of now. One of those two guys, also speaks very highly of Hill.

I'm an optimistic K-State fan (a dying breed these days), but even the pessimists/realists think that the recruits are still coming.

Of course, two weeks ago nobody rooting for K-State would have believed that Huggins wouldn't be in Manhattan next year.

royalfan5
4/11/2007, 12:25 PM
I was travelling over the weekend so I didn't get a chance to respond to this thread, so here it goes.

Any other move besides hiring Martin and Hill, would have been mind-blowingly stupid. Huggins forced our hand. This is not only a very good class coming in, it is also a very large class.

This came very late in the game for hiring new coaches, and even later in the recruiting process. I can't think of a single name out there that would have managed to save the recruiting class. Had Beasley, Sutton, and Pullen all tried to get out of their LOIs it is probable that Walker would have transfered (or gone to play in Europe for a year).

At that point K-State would have been left with a team that could easily have been staring 0-16 squarely in the face. And it would have taken a fantastic, lightning in a bottle hire to have recovered from that.

As it is, our new coach will have two lottery picks available to help smooth out the on the job learning that is going to have to happen. These two guys are proven recruiters (note that the only recruit that had closer ties to Huggins than to Martin or Hill was Walker, and he'd have to sit a year if he were to transfer), so the hope for us is that these guys will use whatever success that our incoming class gives them as a springboard into the future.

It doesn't hurt that in addition to Beasley and Walker, are three guys (Sutton, Pullen, and Brown), who by themselves would have been one of the best classes to come to K-State in the last 20 years, and those guys won't be leaving after next year unless another disaster strikes.

As for Huggins, this is a real kick to the junk. Yeah, the guy had armfulls of baggage, but what were the odds of him leaving after one year, with the nations best recruiting class coming in? Not real high. The guy had plenty of chances to leave Cincy for greener pastures (including WVU and the NBA) but never took them. I would have bet and lost a large sum of cash that he would have stayed in Manhattan for at least 4 years.

The fact is, there weren't that many programs in the near term that would have wanted Huggins, that Huggins would have coveted over K-State. West Virgina was on a very short list. Even so, had Huggins stayed between 3 and 5 years and planted us firmly back on the basketball landscape with a couple of top 3 conference finishes and a Sweet 16 or Elite 8, I would have been grateful.

As it is, he left after one year, a second round NIT loss, tried to take our best incoming recruits with him, and left us with no viable options to replace him but his rather inexperienced assistant.

As bad as the last 20 years of K-State basketball have been (it should be noted that in 1988 K-State was very close to being on even footing with KU historically, K-State does have a strong basketball tradition, even if it is starting to become ancient history), Huggins was worth the risk. And if Martin makes it work, maybe it all works out on the end. But I won't be rooting for Huggins anytime soon.
Rhode Island thought the same thing with Jerry Degrigio, George with Ron Jirsa, Iowa State with Wayne Morgan. If K-State thinks so little of their program that they are willing to sacrifice the next decade for a one year shot at Glory with a proven slimebag at the helm, more power to them. K-State is like the easy girl at the bar, who will **** the first guy that shows them any attention because they think that they can't do any better. Name one situation where hiring an assistant to just to keep a recruiting classes has worked out.

OSUAggie
4/11/2007, 01:04 PM
Rhode Island thought the same thing with Jerry Degrigio, George with Ron Jirsa, Iowa State with Wayne Morgan. If K-State thinks so little of their program that they are willing to sacrifice the next decade for a one year shot at Glory with a proven slimebag at the helm, more power to them. K-State is like the easy girl at the bar, who will **** the first guy that shows them any attention because they think that they can't do any better. Name one situation where hiring an assistant to just to keep a recruiting classes has worked out.

Why do you hate the easy girl at the bar?

Name how many times an assistant has been hired just to keep a recruiting class... It's not all that common, especially not when you have at least a top-5 class coming in. I don't think K-State had any other choice in this situation.

skycat
4/11/2007, 01:21 PM
Rhode Island thought the same thing with Jerry Degrigio, George with Ron Jirsa, Iowa State with Wayne Morgan. If K-State thinks so little of their program that they are willing to sacrifice the next decade for a one year shot at Glory with a proven slimebag at the helm, more power to them. K-State is like the easy girl at the bar, who will **** the first guy that shows them any attention because they think that they can't do any better. Name one situation where hiring an assistant to just to keep a recruiting classes has worked out.

Sacrifice the next decade? Have you been paying attention to K-State hoops fort the last 20 years?

Come up with an example where assistants were left with players anywhere near the calibre of Beasley and Walker. Your examples don't come close.

These guys may end up being bad hires. But at this point in this year, I wouldn't have traded anyone out there with no Beasley, Walker, Sutton, and Pullen for Martin and Hill with those guys.

Without these coaches and the recruits that look likely to remain, we may very well win no more than 1 or 2 games in conference, never mind the much more difficult non-conference slate that Huggins left us with. We would be very, very bad next year. Very bad. I don't think you've contemplated how truly awful we'd be with Clent Stewart or Blake Young as our #2 scoring threat. And then we'd lose the best three remaining players from that team to graduation. We would be in huge trouble as a program.

The worst likely scenario with these coaches assuming they keep the recruits is that we finish top 5 in the conference next year and get a trip to the NCAAs (for the first time in 12 years!). Then fall off to no worse than we have been under Asbury/Wooldridge and we end up starting with a new coach in 4 or 5 years who is at least as good as any available at this point.

Best case, we finish top 2 in conference, we make a signifigant run in the tournament next season, and the coaches use that success to sustain recruiting at a level high enough to stay in the top 3 or 4 in the league.

Who could we have hired right now with better prospects than that? Noone, that's who.

OSUAggie
4/11/2007, 01:28 PM
What've you heard about K-State turning in a few schools for illegalities in recruiting?

skycat
4/11/2007, 01:35 PM
What've you heard about K-State turning in a few schools for illegalities in recruiting?

Nothing, but I've been out of town. It's been all I could do to keep up with the coaching stuff.

royalfan5
4/11/2007, 01:45 PM
Sacrifice the next decade? Have you been paying attention to K-State hoops fort the last 20 years?

Come up with an example where assistants were left with players anywhere near the calibre of Beasley and Walker. Your examples don't come close.

These guys may end up being bad hires. But at this point in this year, I wouldn't have traded anyone out there with no Beasley, Walker, Sutton, and Pullen for Martin and Hill with those guys.

Without these coaches and the recruits that look likely to remain, we may very well win no more than 1 or 2 games in conference, never mind the much more difficult non-conference slate that Huggins left us with. We would be very, very bad next year. Very bad. I don't think you've contemplated how truly awful we'd be with Clent Stewart or Blake Young as our #2 scoring threat. And then we'd lose the best three remaining players from that team to graduation. We would be in huge trouble as a program.

The worst likely scenario with these coaches assuming they keep the recruits is that we finish top 5 in the conference next year and get a trip to the NCAAs (for the first time in 12 years!). Then fall off to no worse than we have been under Asbury/Wooldridge and we end up starting with a new coach in 4 or 5 years who is at least as good as any available at this point.

Best case, we finish top 2 in conference, we make a signifigant run in the tournament next season, and the coaches use that success to sustain recruiting at a level high enough to stay in the top 3 or 4 in the league.

Who could we have hired right now with better prospects than that? Noone, that's who.I'm sure you could have done better than Frank Martin. I think you also underestimate the ability of new coaches to rerecruit players. In addition having talent is no guarantee you will win. Where has Martin shown that he has the ability to manage talent? There are numerous examples of talented teams not many ballgames. I see no evidence that Martin won't be a coach that loses lots of games with plenty of talent.

skycat
4/11/2007, 01:55 PM
Start listing names of viable candidates better than Martin. It's going to be a very short list.

I think you underestimate our recruits connections with Martin and Hill. And I know you are underestimating the importance of talent in D1 basketball.

You're right in that Martin has a weak resume. I wouldn't argue that. But look at the candidates still available this year. I'll stick with my predictions for best/worst case for Martin vs. the field.

KStatePike
4/11/2007, 06:32 PM
last I heard, our AD had turned in NC State, Memphis, and Florida State for illegally recruiting a player w/ an LOI.

royalfan5
4/11/2007, 07:28 PM
Start listing names of viable candidates better than Martin. It's going to be a very short list.

I think you underestimate our recruits connections with Martin and Hill. And I know you are underestimating the importance of talent in D1 basketball.

You're right in that Martin has a weak resume. I wouldn't argue that. But look at the candidates still available this year. I'll stick with my predictions for best/worst case for Martin vs. the field.
Reggie Theus. I bet he would have listened to K-State's offer, and I bet he could have kept your players.

Don't underrate the importance of team chemistry in basketball. When the Coach owes his job to 2 player's whims, there is a big possibility for problems. ****-Poor chemistry has wrecked a lot of teams. Look at Florida from 2001-2005 for a good example.

KStatePike
4/11/2007, 07:48 PM
but team chemistry has helped to keep this team together, its been a domino effect. Walker said he was staying, then Pullen, then Brown, then Sutton, and they all convinced Beasley to stay, or so the reports go.

It was a $hitty situation, but we did the best we could for the short and long term.

skycat
4/11/2007, 07:59 PM
Reggie Theus. I bet he would have listened to K-State's offer, and I bet he could have kept your players.

Don't underrate the importance of team chemistry in basketball. When the Coach owes his job to 2 player's whims, there is a big possibility for problems. ****-Poor chemistry has wrecked a lot of teams. Look at Florida from 2001-2005 for a good example.

He may have listened, but that guy has a grand total of two more years of head coaching experience than Martin, and one more NCAA appearance. He's every bit as big a risk as Martin is.

And I don't think he could have kept Beasley and Sutton. These guys are tied very closely to Dalonte Hill. And if those two guys left, there's a very good chance that the rest of the class falls apart.

His upside isn't nearly as big as Martin's right now, and if Martin turns out to be a dud, there will be another Theus in 4-5 years.

royalfan5
4/11/2007, 08:19 PM
He may have listened, but that guy has a grand total of two more years of head coaching experience than Martin, and one more NCAA appearance. He's every bit as big a risk as Martin is.

And I don't think he could have kept Beasley and Sutton. These guys are tied very closely to Dalonte Hill. And if those two guys left, there's a very good chance that the rest of the class falls apart.

His upside isn't nearly as big as Martin's right now, and if Martin turns out to be a dud, there will be another Theus in 4-5 years.
He turned a 6-24 team into a NCAA tourney team in 2 years. That requires some doing. Plus the NBA pedigree, and you don't think he couldn't have made a pitch to keep Hill? In Martin you have a guy that was the chief recruiter for a losing program for 4 years, and three other years of experience. He owes his job to two players. If Walker and Beasley are slacking off in practice and in games, how hard can a coach who owes his job to their consent really ride them? What happens when the team faces some adversity, will the players respect a coach that was elevated because two of the players dictated it? By letting two players run the program, you run the risk of a whole host of problems. How well will Martin recruit going forward when he can't play the Huggins card? What is his selling point going to be?

skycat
4/11/2007, 09:34 PM
He turned a 6-24 team into a NCAA tourney team in 2 years. That requires some doing. Plus the NBA pedigree, and you don't think he couldn't have made a pitch to keep Hill? In Martin you have a guy that was the chief recruiter for a losing program for 4 years, and three other years of experience. He owes his job to two players. If Walker and Beasley are slacking off in practice and in games, how hard can a coach who owes his job to their consent really ride them? What happens when the team faces some adversity, will the players respect a coach that was elevated because two of the players dictated it? By letting two players run the program, you run the risk of a whole host of problems. How well will Martin recruit going forward when he can't play the Huggins card? What is his selling point going to be?

Look, I've never argued that Martin is an ideal candidate. Not even close. But no, I don't think Theus could have kept Hill as an assistant. Hill's a DC guy and word was Georgetown wanted him. He stayed at least partly because of the existing relationships with Martin and some of the other basketball staff that stuck around (including the second assistant coach and the basketball strength coach.)

And Martin wasn't kept for just two players, although those two are the most important reason he was promoted. As I've said a bunch of times, there's a good chance that the other 3 that have signed LOI's would have left had those two at the top not fallen in line. Losing 5 (plus disapointing sophomore Jason Bennett who is rumored to be leaving anyway) would have been catastrohpic. Not to mention that Martin was key to recruiting about half this class (Hill the other half, with Huggins key to landing Walker).

This stuff about two players running the program is pretty dumb. If they're going to slack for Martin, why wouldn't they slack for Theus? There is no way we're going to bring in a guy with the reputation Huggins has. Theus (or anyone else that might be interested in the job right now) isn't close.

Once again, worst case, things go south, we start finishing in the bottom third in the conference (again), and there will be another up and comer in 4 or 5 years with a resume just as good as (and frankly I'd hope better than) Theus.

But what are the chances of K-State landing another class that's ranked #1 in the country with two probable NBA lottery picks and another solid NBA prospect any time soon?

I don't think you appreciate how rare that is. That's something that doesn't happen in Lawerence, much less at a program as down and out as K-State has been for the last two decades. That is something worth scrambling to save.

Ash
4/11/2007, 11:32 PM
This stuff about two players running the program is pretty dumb. If they're going to slack for Martin, why wouldn't they slack for Theus?



Because he'd kick their *** up and down the floor, that's why. You obviously haven't seen Theus in action...which isn't too surprising considering they got almost zero TV coverage.

skycat
4/11/2007, 11:41 PM
Because he'd kick their *** up and down the floor, that's why. You obviously haven't seen Theus in action...which isn't too surprising considering they got almost zero TV coverage.

Actually I have.

Of all of the faults that Martin may have as a coach, and I could come up with several, lack of toughness isn't one of them.

OSUAggie
4/12/2007, 12:32 PM
Actually I have.

Of all of the faults that Martin may have as a coach, and I could come up with several, lack of toughness isn't one of them.

heh... nice commentary in the Star today...


GUEST COMMENTARY
Inside Frank Martin's Miami High
By ROBERT ANDREW POWELL
Special to The Star

As soon as I saw that Bob Huggins ditched the Kansas State basketball team to coach his hometown West Virginia Mountaineers, I watched the Web closely. Huggins holds one of the worst reputations in college sports, and his sudden departure left K-State officials furious at his opportunism.

But that’s not what I was interested in. I wanted to see who would get the top job at Kansas State. Within a day, and as I expected, there came the news: Frank Martin, Huggins’ assistant, had been elevated to the Wildcats’ head coach position. I found the official press release at the K-State Web site. Please, I thought to myself, clicking the link. Please tell the truth.

I know Martin from his days as a high school coach in Florida. He had been the head coach at Miami Senior High when I was a staff writer at the Miami New Times newspaper. His team was a perennial superpower, marching to two state championships in a row and on track for a third when I started looking at it, in 1998.

I’d read Martin’s complaints that his team, known as the Stingarees, had become so dominant they could no longer find competition in Miami; almost every game was a boring blowout. I noticed that the Stingarees reloaded every year with stud transfers from around the state. I saw that Martin’s 1997-98 team at Miami High, a public school located in Little Havana just a couple of blocks from Elian Gonzalez’s temporary home, somehow featured three African-American players 6 feet 8 or taller. I wondered how that was possible.

“Some people like to say that our program is one of cheaters and underachievers,” Martin told the Miami Herald, in that paper’s 1997-98 high school basketball preseason preview. “But it’s not that way at all. Miami High has always had a great basketball tradition. We work hard to earn it. Some kids in the past have legally transferred to Miami High because they want to play for the best program in town. I can’t help that. Every kid on this team is legally registered.”

Not exactly. By going into the school system database and simply looking up the given home addresses of the players, I found a nest of rules violations.

•A star point guard, Steve Blake, who now plays for the Denver Nuggets, claimed to live with Joyce Lund, a Stingarees booster who owned a home a few blocks from Miami High. Blake actually lived with his family in Miami Lakes, an upscale suburb miles outside the school district.

•Another player, Udonis Haslem, who now plays for the Miami Heat, claimed to live with the team’s scorekeeper in a studio near Miami High. In truth, he lived with his father and stepmother in Miramar, Fla., in a different county.

•Forward Antonio Latimer, a 6-10 Puerto Rican, claimed to live in an apartment owned by a secretary in the Miami High athletic department. One-third of the team — an entire starting lineup — claimed to live with a school employee, a coach or a team booster.

That’s against the rules in Florida. My article came out just before the state playoffs that Miami High easily won. Almost as soon as Martin and his squad cut down the nets, the Florida High School Activities Association (FHSAA), the agency that oversees scholastic sports, launched its own investigation. It confirmed my findings and then some. Miami High was fined $2,500 and forced to reimburse more than $5,000 in expenses incurred during the FHSAA’s investigation. Five players, including Haslem and Blake, were barred from playing at Miami High again. Blake was actually banned from playing high school ball in Florida, and ended up transferring to Oak Hill in Virginia. Miami High was required to return the 1998 state championship trophy. Martin was fired, along with the school’s athletic director.

“This is one of the most, if not the most, blatant violations of FHSAA rules against recruiting that I have encountered in my seven years as commissioner of this association,” said Ron Davis when he handed down the penalties in August 1998.

After the basketball team was stripped of its title, I endured a period of harassment from Miami High boosters, including the obligatory death threats. “You’re dead, buddy,” said one caller, which I took to be a mixed message. At a Boys and Girls Club charity dinner, I sat near a table where Martin sat, and spent the evening watching him point me out to his friends.

In time I moved on, and so did Martin. He took a job as an assistant coach at Boston’s Northeastern University, a basketball nonentity he stocked with south Florida players. He soon tapped his Miami High contacts to hook up with Huggins at the University of Cincinnati. After Huggins moved to Kansas State, Martin joined him. The press release announcing Martin’s promotion to the top job started simply enough.

“Frank has played an invaluable role in the turnaround of Kansas State basketball,” stated school president Jon Wefald. “I have the utmost confidence in Frank’s ability to lead this program while continuing to attract high-caliber student-athletes who can compete for championships in the Big 12 Conference.”

I scanned down farther, looking for anything on Martin’s Miami High past. I didn’t see how they could ignore his time in Florida, since he’s never served as a head coach above the high school level. A few paragraphs down, I got to the part I’d hoped not to see.

“During his three-year stint with the Stingarees, (Martin) posted a stellar 102-10 (.911) overall record and captured three consecutive Florida 6A State Championships (1996, 1997, 1998). Martin’s last two squads compiled impressive 36-1 records and finished among the nation’s top 5 in the USA Today Top 25 poll, including a program-best No. 2 following the 1997-98 season.”

Oh, gosh. That’s just wrong. Martin did not win three state championships at Miami High. In his last year at the school, his team did not finish 36-1, the record advertised on his bio. That year, 1997-98, the Stingarees actually finished with a record of 0-37. They forfeited every single game, and Martin was fired. As Stephen Colbert might say: You can look it up.

After Martin’s promotion was announced last week, friends came out to sing his praises. In a long profile in one Kansas newspaper, Martin was often described by those who know him best as a man of high character. For a reference to this character, and to address the Miami High scandal, the reporter turned to Art Alvarez, the head coach of the Miami Tropics AAU basketball team.

“A lot of it was blown out of proportion,” Alvarez said. “When you win state titles back-to-back-to-back, it becomes a jealousy issue. Everybody wants to start coming to your school because you win. The problem is, the FHSAA is something of a monopoly. After so many titles, it wasn’t fair. Nothing was ever proved.”

There was no mention of Alvarez’s own scandalous past. In 2003, the FHSAA determined that tiny powerhouse Miami Christian Academy, where Alvarez was the head coach, was guilty of illegal recruiting. His team was banned from postseason play.

Nice character reference.

I’d always seen my story about Miami High as a companion to stories about voter fraud in Miami elections. At around the same time Martin’s team was cheating to win at basketball, people from outside the city were caught using fake addresses to vote for Miami’s mayor. At least one voter was dead. Such skullduggery is rooted in the culture of Miami, a city where hustle rules above all else.

I recognize that Kansas State, while not a famously corrupt program, is not on the vanguard of sports ethics. For one thing, it hired Huggins, whose Cincinnati program was once put on probation for a lack of institutional control. Then, it hired assistant coach Dalonte Hill to land prize recruit Michael Beasley. Finally, it promoted Martin and Hill in a desperate attempt to keep its recruits and salvage next season.

It’s not the worst choice. As far as I know, Martin has never held up a liquor store, or ripped off anyone in a ponzi scheme. He just cheated at basketball and got caught, nine years ago. That’s a black mark, but it’s not the end of the world, nor does it need to be the end of his career. Over the last decade, he’s logged countless hours in the trenches of college basketball, coaching practices, crossing the country on recruiting trips, and persuading talented players from sunny Florida to attend a snowbound college on the prairie. He has a pregnant wife and two kids. I don’t want to deny him basketball. I don’t want to deny him his livelihood, either.

What bothers me is the blatant and ongoing denial. Martin continues to assert his innocence, but his assertions — an entire starting lineup, including a couple of future NBA players, were all transfer students who enrolled at my school with fake addresses somehow obtained from boosters or coaches, but I never “recruited” — dodge the point, the rules, and any semblance of personal responsibility.

“I wish he would have just said something like, ‘Look, that was a long time ago and I made some mistakes. I learned from them and nothing like that has ever happened again,’ ” Ron Boyd, the former FHSAA commissioner, told me on Tuesday.

For the record, Martin was not “cleared of all wrongdoing” by the FHSAA, as several papers reported. The FHSAA never investigated Martin specifically. The basketball program he ran was investigated, and was found to be guilty of illegal recruiting. Again, Martin was fired. That doesn’t happen randomly.

All of us, as humans who’ve survived into adulthood, have accumulated blunders. These things don’t go away. They can’t. They shouldn’t, either. Without mistakes, it’s harder to know what is right. Accountability is what matters most. Ask Barack Obama whether he’s snorted cocaine and see what he says. Then check the huge amounts of money Obama has collected for his run at the presidency. All we ask for is honesty, for some ownership of actions.

“We’re going to roll up our sleeves and hold people accountable,” Martin said in 2005, in an interview about his then-assistant coaching duties.

Please do, Coach. Now is a good time to start.