Horn Fans Practically Frothing At The Mouth Over Possible OU Sanctions

[FaninAma]

Including SF's own resident horn fan Lid:

Lidig8r (http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=Lidig8r&Number=4897728&Board=football&what=showflat&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=4&vc=1)
100+ posts
04/02/07 12:29 PM
Re: OU to face the NCAA [re: HornHuskerDad (http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=football&Number=4894455&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&vc=1)]http://www2.hornfans.com/wwwthreads/images/edit.gif (http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/editpost.php?Cat=&Board=football&Number=4897728&page=0&view=collapsed&what=showflat&sb=5&o=0&vc=1) http://www2.hornfans.com/wwwthreads/images/reply.gif (http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/newreply.php?Cat=&Board=football&Number=4897728&page=0&view=collapsed&what=showflat&sb=5&o=0&fpart=4&vc=1)
Perhaps, sanctions will depend on whether the NCAA believes OU's Compliance Department conducted adequate due diligence when Peterson's Lexus situation arose.

From statements made by OU, they not only investigated the Lexus dealio, but the other athletes' employment with Big Red as well. The unversity gave everything a clean bill of health and found no improprieties.

It was only after emails were sent to the OU president with copies to the NCAA that, that they investigated again, and Romar and Quinn were thrown under the bus. Now, what prevented Compliance from finding the improprieties in its first investigation? There are only two logical answers. The first, incompetence. They had the means and authority to investigate thoroughly, but obviously did not do a thorough enough job. Does this evidence institutional control issues? The second answer was that they discovered possible improprieties but turned a blind eye to it believing that it would not be discovered. Evidence of this?... destroyed or "lost" employee records for other athletes perhaps.

In any event, I would be surprised if the NCAA doesn't yank some scholarships over the course of the next two years and mandates a revamping of the Compliance department.

The horns would never let the facts get in the way of a chance to trash OU with the biggest fact they are overlooking being the fact that Bomar and Quinn just out and out lied and ignored the reqest that they notify the University if they were holding down part time jobs. So I guess if OU failed to give all of their players lie dectector tests constitues a failure to monitor then I guess they are guilty of the failure to monitor charge.

When student athletes get a part-time job they are supposed to sign a form from the compliance office that states they are working off campus. Bomar and Quinn, by their own admission, knew they were supposed to fill this out but didn't. As far as OU knew they weren't working off campus and thus there was no reason to expect any pay stubs or other information to come to the compliance department. That is why Bomar and Quinn were kicked off of the team.....they lied about and ignored rules they damned well knew they were supposed to be following.

The fact that they are the only 2 out of 17 or so other athletes that worked at Big Red that have any issues with non-compliance tells me this was limited to a couple of thiefs and cheats who consciously and knowingly broke the rules.

[BASSooner]

Have you ever gotten over the fact the whorns LOVE us? They do! ANYTHING that happens, there are threads about it. Even when Landry Jones comitted. There is whole thread about it!:D

[CrimsonFaithful]

Wow, it's funny how we get in trouble for the stupidest stuff.

Texas does love us though. :)

[FaninAma]

Horn fans = SSS(Sanctimonious Sacks of Sh*t)

[Octavian]

Oh...there will be rejoicing from all corners of the conference if we get hit hard...not just Texas.


Make no mistake, we have 11 conference "friends" currently cheering for our demise.


If you didn't like their negative recruiting tactics in '07....just wait, they'll all make a mad-dash at our '08 Class (those who've already made verbals and those thinking about committing).


OU under Stoops has a winning record against EVERY program in this conference...and our worst showing is against Texas at 5-3. We've cleaned their clocks in the hardware department. We've owned the South. We've owned Nebraska. We've been the premier program in the BigXII throughout the '00 Decade.


The rest of the conferece can't wait for the NCAA to finish us off...because they can't.

[FaninAma]

I'm starting to think that if OU gets hit hard it will be because of some intense behind the scenes lobbying on the part of some of those so-called "conference friends", especially Texas.

[picasso]

Bomar and Quinn were thrown under the bus? How so? I'm betting this same HuskerDadDorkKnob would be crying from all four corners of his feeble life if we had never made any player pay for such things.

Let alone our so-called savior at QB.

[sanantoniosooner]

I hope Boise State gets hit with sanctions.

[picasso]

Bomar and Quinn were thrown under the bus? How so? I'm betting this same HuskerDadDorkKnob would be crying from all four corners of his feeble life if we had never made any player pay for such things.

Let alone our so-called savior at QB.
whoa, let me rephrase that. LiddyKnob.

[FaninAma]

Facts the idiot horns are ignoring:

Bomar and Quinn never filled out the disclosure form. If OU had known they were working at BRSI they might have caught the incident quicker.

Bomar and Quinn worked at BRSI a full year and a half before the Peterson Lexus incident took place, not concurrently like the deluded horn fans contend.

Over 17 Sooner players had worked at BRSI over the past few years and after a thorough audit with the new ownership only Bomar and Quinn had committed infractions.

The most serious charge listed by the NCAA is "Failure to Monitor" not "Lack of Institutional Control".

[Texas Golfer]

Whorn fans, apparently including our own Lidig8r, won't let facts get in the way of their allegations.

Let them drool over their own unsubstantiated stories.

[SoonerRoads]

Oh...there will be rejoicing from all corners of the conference if we get hit hard...not just Texas.


Make no mistake, we have 11 conference "friends" currently cheering for our demise.


If you didn't like their negative recruiting tactics in '07....just wait, they'll all make a mad-dash at our '08 Class (those who've already made verbals and those thinking about committing).


OU under Stoops has a winning record against EVERY program in this conference...and our worst showing is against Texas at 5-3. We've cleaned their clocks in the hardware department. We've owned the South. We've owned Nebraska. We've been the premier program in the BigXII throughout the '00 Decade.


The rest of the conferece can't wait for the NCAA to finish us off...because they can't.

Amen Brother....Amen!

[jrsooner]

Whorn fans, apparently including our own Lidig8r, won't let facts get in the way of their allegations.I wonder if tu makes a full payroll audit of Red McCombs dealerships on a monthly basis?

http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/images/2001_02/main_images/04/mccombs_red_01_250.jpg

[The VIIIth]

This is a post from SportsProducer a/k/a Bob Barry jr., I felt much better after having some points clarified by him in his post. It seems there are some inaccuracies being reported by both the DMN and the AP...imagine that.


sportsproducer1
Junior
User Rating: 3.1/5 this site
1849 posts this site
Posted on 3/31/2007 11:38 PM Nominate Post | Report Post

Re: OU To Challenge NCAA's "Failure To Monitor"

First, The first rumors of this on the A&M mesage board appeard the last week of January 2006. Ou had already questioned both Bomar and Quinn two weeks prior. So tha tblows the "7 Months prior statement"
Jerry Bomar had laready informed the University his son had not made the money in question and he would later prove it on the tax return. The staff and Complaince although they continued to attempt to question Brad McCrae and others. The NCAA was immediately notified of an OU investigation in January of '06 but at the time after speaking with the athletes felt that if there where infractins they would be very minor. Other shools have reproted the same. If you knew how mmany schools contact the NCAA daily about infractions it would boggle your mind.

The NCAA has alredy published their final findings and out of all these players that worked at Big Red only two were involved in a conspiracy and a third recieved money for hour not worked but since he was booted for team vioaltions refused to be interviewed. Also for every Brad McCrae and Jermain Hardison who did not comy with interviewes there where countless former athletes who came back to Norman or granted interviews by phone to discuss their dealing with Big Red Sports and othe remployers who came into questions. This is why they found only three who were at fault.

Finally the report in the Dallas Morning news is false becasue A) my contact at the NCAA told me so and B) OU only has TV commitments thorugh next fall. The Networks do not committ to games that far in the future. Heck some of OU's games this fall could be moved from national to regional to even not aired at all depending on their record, opponenets records, etc.

[goingoneight]

I gave AD a high-five once, should I take it back so we don't get sanctions?

[picasso]

I've seen his posts many times on said site and all I can say is he doesn't have spell check on ze company PC. I mean I realize the guy is probably busy...

[goingoneight]

This is a post from SportsProducer a/k/a Bob Barry jr., I felt much better after having some points clarified by him in his post. It seems there are some inaccuracies being reported by both the DMN and the AP...imagine that.


sportsproducer1
Junior
User Rating: 3.1/5 this site
1849 posts this site
Posted on 3/31/2007 11:38 PM Nominate Post | Report Post

Re: OU To Challenge NCAA's "Failure To Monitor"

First, The first rumors of this on the A&M mesage board appeard the last week of January 2006. Ou had already questioned both Bomar and Quinn two weeks prior. So tha tblows the "7 Months prior statement"
Jerry Bomar had laready informed the University his son had not made the money in question and he would later prove it on the tax return. The staff and Complaince although they continued to attempt to question Brad McCrae and others. The NCAA was immediately notified of an OU investigation in January of '06 but at the time after speaking with the athletes felt that if there where infractins they would be very minor. Other shools have reproted the same. If you knew how mmany schools contact the NCAA daily about infractions it would boggle your mind.

The NCAA has alredy published their final findings and out of all these players that worked at Big Red only two were involved in a conspiracy and a third recieved money for hour not worked but since he was booted for team vioaltions refused to be interviewed. Also for every Brad McCrae and Jermain Hardison who did not comy with interviewes there where countless former athletes who came back to Norman or granted interviews by phone to discuss their dealing with Big Red Sports and othe remployers who came into questions. This is why they found only three who were at fault.

Finally the report in the Dallas Morning news is false becasue A) my contact at the NCAA told me so and B) OU only has TV commitments thorugh next fall. The Networks do not committ to games that far in the future. Heck some of OU's games this fall could be moved from national to regional to even not aired at all depending on their record, opponenets records, etc.

Yew shood reely spel chek thes poste.

[The VIIIth]

Yew shood reely spel chek thes poste.

Hey man, I am a flawless spelldog...that is a repost from Bob Barry Jr. with no corrections. It does look a bit like James Hale's work.

You should check the content instead of being a spell police schmuck...unless of course your screen name is reflective of your age.

[goingoneight]

I keed, I keed! :D

[goingoneight]

... unless of course your screen name is reflective of your age.

I would put "going on 25," but we don't use Bama math. ;)

[SoonerTerry]

I'm laqk da speel cheeck

[Fraggle145]

**** Texas.

[Sooner in Tampa]

I hate ****ing hate those ****$uckers more and more everyday :mad:


a good compliance staff would have the paychecks delivered to them, they would examine them for any impropriety and THEY would then disburse the checks to the "Student Athletes"

a good compliance staff would understand the gravity of the situation post Kelvin Sampson and the tennis team problems (or whatever) and gone above and beyond even their own compliance standards to ensure that they couldn't be caught on any untoward activities involving ANY of their athletes, much less the two highest profile guys that they had.


OU doesn't have a "compliance staff"....that entire State is good with that school cheating to win.

They don't have any professional sports teams to support an no real economy which lends.

These dynamics put pressure on OU to be a "I don't give a [censored] about the rules, just win so we can have something to cling on to in this God forsaken place".

Always been that way.

Maybe it always will.- especially if nothing is done in this deal.

[Ash]

Fans of a team whose star players have recently been arrested for multiple drugs and weapons charges, child molestation, and whose school was recently accused of literally pimping women to get recruits should simply STFU and hope the ****storm passes quietly by their own mess.

This whole deal pales in comparison to the misdemeanor and felony charges that recent Texas players have been accused of.

[jk the sooner fan]

seriously, they hate us with as much passion as we hate them, would you expect anything less?

are you really shocked? we should take it as a compliment.....if we were baylor, they wouldnt give a rats ***....but Stoops has 4 conference championships to Brown's 1..so of course they want to hurt us

[picasso]

a school can't filter a student's paycheck/income. even if said student is on scholarship.

that's a frickin joke.

[jk the sooner fan]

i will say that if your starting QB has a job, the university should know about it.....whether he's signed the proper document or not

[Sooner in Tampa]

i will say that if your starting QB has a job, the university should know about it.....whether he's signed the proper document or not"should" is the key word...your starting QB "should" also have some common damn sense and do things the right way...thank to jack@$$ we are in this crappy situation.

[picasso]

i will say that if your starting QB has a job, the university should know about it.....whether he's signed the proper document or not
I agree. but if the student is working at Wendy's, you can't run his paycheck through the school first.

[TexasLidig8r]

In keeping with the manner in which I post pretty much everywhere, my post on hornfans was pretty benign.

Now for Golfer and others who want to talk of facts, let's look at some of the facts :

SEP/OCT 2005 Adrian Peterson is reported to be in possession of a Lexus belonging to Big Red Sports and Imports, whose general manager is Brad McRae, a publicly known OU booster.

NOV 2005 Oklahoma launches an internal investigation of Adrian Peterson and the dealership.

APR 03, 2006 An anonymous tip via email is received by University of Oklahoma president David Boren and also sent to the NCAA that players are being paid for work not performed.

APR 07, 2006 A purchase offer from the Hudiburg Auto Group is accepted by Big Red Sports/Imports partial owner Mike Donohue.

APR 19, 2006 Oklahoma completes investigation of Peterson and dealership and releases outcome that no violations occurred; OU also states that the employment of student athletes was also investigated, but no violations occurred.

AUG 02, 2006 Oklahoma officials announce that Bomar and Quinn have been dismissed from the team for accepting money for work they did not perform at Big Red Sports and Imports.

FEB 12, 2007 Oklahoma announces self-imposed penalties as a recourse for Bomar and Quinn's actions.

FEB 12, 2007 NCAA releases document disclosing accusation that an unnamed third player took improper benefits, and announces date for OU to appear before infractions committee (April 14th, 2007).

Now, let's go from facts to speculation and logical thinking:

This timeline poses a few thoughts and questions.

1) Why was Oklahoma investigating the employment of football players by the dealership in the original investigation?

The "whistle-blowing" allegedly occurred on April 3rd. Oklahoma was wrapping up a 5 month long investigation into the interactions between Adrian Peterson and the Norman dealership involved with the "purchase" of a used Lexus. Oklahoma released their findings (no violations occurred) that included a brief, cryptic quote at the end of the release:

"Oklahoma also investigated the employment of football players by the dealership but found no violations."


No more details were given into why this was included or what was actually being investigated. Given that this release was made within two weeks of the anonymous email to Boren, the timing of these events would suggest one of the following:

A) OU was wrapping up the investigation when Boren received the email, and he instructed the investigators to nose around for anything suspicious about player payment. Possibly expecting a hoax, he never really pursued the issue, and by having the investigators aware of the accusation, they would be cleared by "piggy-backing" this new issue on top of the Peterson-Lexus investigation.

B) Someone else had tipped OU off that there was something going on with the player payment... before the anonymous email to Boren. From comments made, Bomar was allegedly somewhat vocal and "open" about the overpayments - therefore it might be possible that OU had been made aware of the situation and was investigating interactions with Big Red from the start of the investigation.

Either scenario bring forth the following complication.

2) If the Peterson/Lexus investigation was altered to include investigation of student athlete employment, how was no payment discrepancy found?

Having made publicly known in their release that they had investigated the employment of football players at BRSI, how is it possible that Oklahoma did not uncover the truth? What could OU have possibly "investigated" about the situation that would not have unearthed the paycheck/timecard discrepancy? Confirmation of any of the following items would have led to the truth:

- analysis of player timecards
- analysis of paychecks
- analysis of tax forms

How can the released quote in early April that OU "found no violations" be released when there was no analysis done on these items? Did the dealership deny OU access to them? Were they destroyed before OU could see them? Were they "lost in ownership transition" of BRSI? Oklahoma is not claiming any of those things occurred during the original investigation, are they?

"Oklahoma also investigated the employment of football players by the dealership but found no violations."


It is a curious thing that Oklahoma would release a public, absolute statement like this without checking any of the documents mentioned above, that would have inevitably led them to the truth.

Once again, did Stoops know? Probably not. Did Compliance do their job? That, I believe is what the NCAA will focus on and as stated on hornfans, the NCAA may require revamping of the Compliance Department to address these, and other issues in the future.

[picasso]

I'm headed to the bathroom right now, which is kind of in the same area I put you and your buddies @ Hornfans.

[usmc-sooner]

In keeping with the manner in which I post pretty much everywhere, my post on hornfans was pretty benign.

Now for Golfer and others who want to talk of facts, let's look at some of the facts :

SEP/OCT 2005 Adrian Peterson is reported to be in possession of a Lexus belonging to Big Red Sports and Imports, whose general manager is Brad McRae, a publicly known OU booster.

NOV 2005 Oklahoma launches an internal investigation of Adrian Peterson and the dealership.

APR 03, 2006 An anonymous tip via email is received by University of Oklahoma president David Boren and also sent to the NCAA that players are being paid for work not performed.

APR 07, 2006 A purchase offer from the Hudiburg Auto Group is accepted by Big Red Sports/Imports partial owner Mike Donohue.

APR 19, 2006 Oklahoma completes investigation of Peterson and dealership and releases outcome that no violations occurred; OU also states that the employment of student athletes was also investigated, but no violations occurred.

AUG 02, 2006 Oklahoma officials announce that Bomar and Quinn have been dismissed from the team for accepting money for work they did not perform at Big Red Sports and Imports.

FEB 12, 2007 Oklahoma announces self-imposed penalties as a recourse for Bomar and Quinn's actions.

FEB 12, 2007 NCAA releases document disclosing accusation that an unnamed third player took improper benefits, and announces date for OU to appear before infractions committee (April 14th, 2007).

Now, let's go from facts to speculation and logical thinking:

This timeline poses a few thoughts and questions.

1) Why was Oklahoma investigating the employment of football players by the dealership in the original investigation?

The "whistle-blowing" allegedly occurred on April 3rd. Oklahoma was wrapping up a 5 month long investigation into the interactions between Adrian Peterson and the Norman dealership involved with the "purchase" of a used Lexus. Oklahoma released their findings (no violations occurred) that included a brief, cryptic quote at the end of the release:

"Oklahoma also investigated the employment of football players by the dealership but found no violations."


No more details were given into why this was included or what was actually being investigated. Given that this release was made within two weeks of the anonymous email to Boren, the timing of these events would suggest one of the following:

A) OU was wrapping up the investigation when Boren received the email, and he instructed the investigators to nose around for anything suspicious about player payment. Possibly expecting a hoax, he never really pursued the issue, and by having the investigators aware of the accusation, they would be cleared by "piggy-backing" this new issue on top of the Peterson-Lexus investigation.

B) Someone else had tipped OU off that there was something going on with the player payment... before the anonymous email to Boren. From comments made, Bomar was allegedly somewhat vocal and "open" about the overpayments - therefore it might be possible that OU had been made aware of the situation and was investigating interactions with Big Red from the start of the investigation.

Either scenario bring forth the following complication.

2) If the Peterson/Lexus investigation was altered to include investigation of student athlete employment, how was no payment discrepancy found?

Having made publicly known in their release that they had investigated the employment of football players at BRSI, how is it possible that Oklahoma did not uncover the truth? What could OU have possibly "investigated" about the situation that would not have unearthed the paycheck/timecard discrepancy? Confirmation of any of the following items would have led to the truth:

- analysis of player timecards
- analysis of paychecks
- analysis of tax forms

How can the released quote in early April that OU "found no violations" be released when there was no analysis done on these items? Did the dealership deny OU access to them? Were they destroyed before OU could see them? Were they "lost in ownership transition" of BRSI? Oklahoma is not claiming any of those things occurred during the original investigation, are they?

"Oklahoma also investigated the employment of football players by the dealership but found no violations."


It is a curious thing that Oklahoma would release a public, absolute statement like this without checking any of the documents mentioned above, that would have inevitably led them to the truth.

Once again, did Stoops know? Probably not. Did Compliance do their job? That, I believe is what the NCAA will focus on and as stated on hornfans, the NCAA may require revamping of the Compliance Department to address these, and other issues in the future.

maybe you should worry about all the weed that turns up on UT athletes that supposedly isn't even theirs, and the UT payroll, you're way too obsessed with OU.

[CobraKai]

Fans of a team whose star players have recently been arrested for multiple drugs and weapons charges, child molestation, and whose school was recently accused of literally pimping women to get recruits should simply STFU and hope the ****storm passes quietly by their own mess.

This whole deal pales in comparison to the misdemeanor and felony charges that recent Texas players have been accused of.

I wonder if anyone ever investigated the $1,000,000 signing bonus Ricky Williams got (as a career .200 hitter in AA) to sign with the Texas Rangers and UT donor Tom Hicks. If you'll recall he got the bonus, announced he would return for his Sr. Year, was told by the Rangers and Tom Hicks to wait until after football to report to the Rangers, and then after winning the Heisman announced his retirement....never played an inning.

[FaninAma]

Lid, it is truly sad that you are an example of a "reasonable" horn fan. That is all one needs to know about the state of the fan base in Austin.

Does OU have supeona power to force a business to turn over the records of a player who has signed a form stating that he is not working at that business or anywhere else? BTW, OU got the records after the business was sold and the more cooperative new owners turned over the records.

Does UT investigate the specific transaction of every situation in which a player turns up in possession of an expensive item like a car or plasma television?

Does UT request records from all businesses in Austin and other Texas cities that have been known to employ Texas athletes? Or are UT's athletes just that much more trustworthy than OU's on all matters(except seemingly drug possession)? If the answer to these 2 questions is "no" then UT is as guilty as OU of failure to monitor.

I would love to put the UT program under the microscope. It would be interesting.

[SoonerAtKU]

I wonder if anyone ever investigated the $1,000,000 signing bonus Ricky Williams got (as a career .200 hitter in AA) to sign with the Texas Rangers and UT donor Tom Hicks. If you'll recall he got the bonus, announced he would return for his Sr. Year, was told by the Rangers and Tom Hicks to wait until after football to report to the Rangers, and then after winning the Heisman announced his retirement....never played an inning.

I'll take Cedric Benson's Plasma for the win, Bob.

[picasso]

I wonder if anyone ever investigated the $1,000,000 signing bonus Ricky Williams got (as a career .200 hitter in AA) to sign with the Texas Rangers and UT donor Tom Hicks. If you'll recall he got the bonus, announced he would return for his Sr. Year, was told by the Rangers and Tom Hicks to wait until after football to report to the Rangers, and then after winning the Heisman announced his retirement....never played an inning.
Ricky needed that bonus to pay for his dianabol stacking.

[TexasLidig8r]

Lid, it is truly sad that you are an example of a "reasonable" horn fan. That is all one needs to know about the state of the fan base in Austin.

Fan, look at the responses on here, both before and after my lengthy post. It would appear that most internet fan bases have more rabid, never questioning fans than objective fans.

Does OU have supeona power to force a business to turn over the records of a player who has signed a form stating that he is not working at that business or anywhere else? BTW, OU got the records after the business was sold and the more cooperative new owners turned over the records.

Any school has the ability to oversee and regulate its student/athlete's employment while employed at the school and while on scholarship. Schools can require students to disclose to compliance their employer, have them sign a release form for all records, send NCAA rules regarding employment to those employers and randomly check employment records to check compliance. If a student doesn't like it, fine, attend school somewhere else.

As for the records, many records were not turned over since they were not "found" when the new owners took over.

Does UT investigate the specific transaction of every situation in which a player turns up in possession of an expensive item like a car or plasma television?

It would be naive to say, yes, of course.

Does UT request records from all businesses in Austin and other Texas cities that have been known to employ Texas athletes? Or are UT's athletes just that much more trustworthy than OU's on all matters(except seemingly drug possession)? If the answer to these 2 questions is "no" then UT is as guilty as OU of failure to monitor.

UT more closely monitors employment of its student athletes, randomly checks employment and requires disclosure from the athletes as to their employment status. Don't believe it? Send an open records request to UT for its compliance department's policies and procedures.

Are UT athletes more trustworthy? Young adults are young adults. There will be ethical, intelligent ones.. there will be idiots. No school has a monopoly on either. That is also not the issue. the issue is the adequacy of the compliance department at OU (read, and to date, I have never implied that Stoops was in the know)

I would love to put the UT program under the microscope. It would be interesting.

Having said all that, I don't think OU will be hit by huge sanctions.... I do think a few additional lost scholarships and some changes in the compliance department will be assessed.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Facts the idiot horns are ignoring:

Over 17 Sooner players had worked at BRSI over the past few years and after a thorough audit with the new ownership only Bomar and Quinn had committed infractions.

What about that walk-on as well. People are giving OU a bad name because this kid isn't cooperating as well. Question, if you are a walk-on, not on scholarship, do you have to follow any of those rules? Or are you as denoted as a walk-on - on your own and fending for yourself. The walk-on issue doesn't seem to be an issue here as well.

[FaninAma]

Having said all that, I don't think OU will be hit by huge sanctions.... I do think a few additional lost scholarships and some changes in the compliance department will be assessed.

Lid, I was being serious about my statement that you are, for a horn fan, very reasonable.

My main contention in this is that you are overlooking the fact that Bomar and Quinn were intentionally deceitful regarding their disclosure statement. Now, understanding that how far does a program need to go to determine if their student-athletes are being honest in their statements and disclosures? How do they verify this?

When self-servng parties intentionally and willfully break the rules for personal gain it is very difficult to catch those culprits. How long does it take audits to catch an embezzler? From other business owners who have had this happen to them it takes a long, long time and a lot of auditing and even then it is difficult to prove.

All of the wrongdoers in this fiasco were hiding their complicity. Boamr and Quinn lied about their employment. Macrae, the manager of BRSI was uncooperative and complicit in this and sure as hell wasn't going to divulge his part.

So give us specifics at what point the illegalities should have been discovered and what specifically OU could have done to prove earlier that the players were getting paid illegally. You're an attorney. How quickly do white collar crime investigations play out in the real world?

[FaninAma]

What about that walk-on as well. People are giving OU a bad name because this kid isn't cooperating as well. Question, if you are a walk-on, not on scholarship, do you have to follow any of those rules? Or are you as denoted as a walk-on - on your own and fending for yourself. The walk-on issue doesn't seem to be an issue here as well.

I'm pretty sure the rules apply to walk-ons, also. So there were 3 players. Other reports indicate that other players actually quit working there because of the sliminess of McCrae. The only problem I would have with this whole situation is if the palyers who quit informed OU of how sleazy McCrae was and if they did why weren't players banned from working there?

Of course that doesn't address the fact that Bomar and Quinn probaly would have continued to lie about their employment there.

Face it. Athletes have accepted the $50 handshakes since the dawn of big time college athletics. They always have and they always will and there will always be slimy people who offer the handshakes(or their equivalent). The question is: what can reasonably be expected of an athletic program in monitoring this intentionally deceitful activity when all parties are aware of the rules yet choose to ignore and skirt those rules while covering up their actions? And what do they do when they discover a transgression? I think OU did about as good of a job as possible in this situation.

And again if Texas fans don't think those "handshakes" aren't happening with their players then they are even more stupid than I thought.

If the precedent for tough penalties is handed down for OU in this situation then every one of the other programs just became more vulnerable to slimy boosters and deceitful players hurting a program even though the program is making a good effort to comply with the rules.

[Desert Sapper]

I think Lid's post is indicative of the previously mentioned whorn fetish for OU in general, and a clear representative example of 'grasping at straws' for the sake of his sanity. Whorn fans realize that this season is the one they've been dreading. It is when all that euphoria from the 'in-vince-able' era comes crashing to reality. Lid, like his contemporaries, are grasping at every straw they can to keep the euphoric vibe from disappearing. If OU falls, saxet cannot help but to benefit (just as we benefitted so magnificently from saxet's late season collapse last year). I wouldn't be surprised if every UT alum lawyer in and out of the state of Texas was offering pro bono work to the NCAA in the OU investigation.

Saxet is the biggest and most influential university in the state of Texas. Alumni of the University take great pride in the football team (among other athletic programs at the school), often to the point of obsession (nothing earth shattering here -- pretty much the same at any major University). The state of Texas is an economic powerhouse, producing the second highest GSP in the country. The state of Texas has produced one of the more serious 'breach of ethics' cases in our nation's history (although none of the parties involved was a 'Texas grad'). Even an ambulance-chasing tea-sipper can put two and two together here. If you live in a glass house, you ought not be slinging boulders at the house next door.

[Ash]

I wonder if anyone ever investigated the $1,000,000 signing bonus Ricky Williams got (as a career .200 hitter in AA) to sign with the Texas Rangers and UT donor Tom Hicks. If you'll recall he got the bonus, announced he would return for his Sr. Year, was told by the Rangers and Tom Hicks to wait until after football to report to the Rangers, and then after winning the Heisman announced his retirement....never played an inning.

The list goes on and on...

[TexasLidig8r]

I think Lid's post is indicative of the previously mentioned whorn fetish for OU in general, and a clear representative example of 'grasping at straws' for the sake of his sanity. Whorn fans realize that this season is the one they've been dreading. It is when all that euphoria from the 'in-vince-able' era comes crashing to reality. Lid, like his contemporaries, are grasping at every straw they can to keep the euphoric vibe from disappearing. If OU falls, saxet cannot help but to benefit (just as we benefitted so magnificently from saxet's late season collapse last year). I wouldn't be surprised if every UT alum lawyer in and out of the state of Texas was offering pro bono work to the NCAA in the OU investigation.



Sapper... we heard the "this is the season" mantra before.. in fact, just this very past season, the old "Now the Vince is gone, we're going to kill Texas." Reality and perception were very different.

Further, it is not in Texas' best interest for OU to fall into mediocrity as a result of NCAA sanctions. We have seen how the RRS can be a spring board to a BCS bowl and national championship. If one of the teams were down, the game would lose its significance. There is no pride or glory in defeating the run of the mill teams... your Okie Lites, Missouris and such.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

APR 03, 2006 An anonymous tip via email is received by University of Oklahoma president David Boren and also sent to the NCAA that players are being paid for work not performed.

APR 07, 2006 A purchase offer from the Hudiburg Auto Group is accepted by Big Red Sports/Imports partial owner Mike Donohue.

APR 19, 2006 Oklahoma completes investigation of Peterson and dealership and releases outcome that no violations occurred; OU also states that the employment of student athletes was also investigated, but no violations occurred.

AUG 02, 2006 Oklahoma officials announce that Bomar and Quinn have been dismissed from the team for accepting money for work they did not perform at Big Red Sports and Imports.



Counselor, I read the entirety of both your progression and argument. And while you rightfully pose tough questions, as many of us have, your timeline and argument have one serious flaw. So I ask you (answer as if you were on the witness stand, if you please sir):

Counselor, you mention an accepted offer for purchase from Hudiberg Auto Group for Big Red Sports/Imports. What date was that sale closed, sir?

Counselor, do you know if the Hudiberg Auto Group was allowed a review period of all pertinant BRSI financial records prior to the closing of the sale, and if so what were the dates of said audit?

Counselor, do you have any knowledge as to whether, in the course of Hudiberg's review of the BRSI financial records, any discrepancies were found? And if so, what did these discrepancies pertain to? Further, sir, are you aware whether or not the Hudiberg Group proactively sought out any potentially affected parties to inform them of any discrepancies found?

[Objections for leading overruled.]

Answer the questions, sir!

[Permission to treat the witness as hostile granted.]

Answer the question! I want the truth!

(Your turn :D )

[Desert Sapper]

Sapper... we heard the "this is the season" mantra before.. in fact, just this very past season, the old "Now the Vince is gone, we're going to kill Texas." Reality and perception were very different.

Further, it is not in Texas' best interest for OU to fall into mediocrity as a result of NCAA sanctions. We have seen how the RRS can be a spring board to a BCS bowl and national championship. If one of the teams were down, the game would lose its significance. There is no pride or glory in defeating the run of the mill teams... your Okie Lites, Missouris and such.

Last season we had you on the ropes at half time and Aaron Ross proceeded to put on a DB clinic after the break. He's gone, along with the two other redeeming factors of your secondary. Your DC is now the Iowa State HC. Were it not for the loss of your top three OL going into the season -- Studdard, Blaylock, and Sendlein, you might have a point. As it stands, the fear is evident.

I agree that it's not in your best interests for OU to 'fall into mediocrity', but that won't happen unless Bob leaves. OU taking some major hits from the NCAA, however, would benefit saxet in that it would make OU weaker (but not significantly enough to lose much) and it would allow saxet to pull in many of those recruits that would otherwise shun UT for OU. Tell me it doesn't sting a little when a kid like AD crosses the border for a program that can make him a better player instead of just 'let him play'.

[TexasLidig8r]

Counselor, you mention an accepted offer for purchase from Hudiberg Auto Group for Big Red Sports/Imports. What date was that sale closed, sir?

That is an answer known only to the parties as reflected on the documents.

Counselor, do you know if the Hudiberg Auto Group was allowed a review period of all pertinant BRSI financial records prior to the closing of the sale, and if so what were the dates of said audit?

A company conducting any sort of due diligence would have requested access to all pertinant financial records.

Counselor, do you have any knowledge as to whether, in the course of Hudiberg's review of the BRSI financial records, any discrepancies were found? And if so, what did these discrepancies pertain to? Further, sir, are you aware whether or not the Hudiberg Group proactively sought out any potentially affected parties to inform them of any discrepancies found?

Again, that information is within the exclusive province of Hudiberg and would be mere speculation on my part.

Answer the questions, sir!

[Permission to treat the witness as hostile granted.]

Answer the question! I want the truth!

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! :D

(Your turn :D )

With information coming to light that there are missing documents pertaining to other athletes' employment and pay, surely you aren't implicating the Hudiburg group are you?!!!

The questions posed are irrelevant, unless you are attempting to implicate the Hudiburg group in the situation.

The issue remains, what did compliance do, or not do, when it conducted its investigation into the car dealership and before it issued its clean bill of health.

[FaninAma]

And we all know that legal cases involving audits and reviews of financial records and employment histories just zip thorugh our current legal system. :rolleyes:

I would hazard a guess that this case where it took less than 2 years from the illegal act taking place to rendering punishment(Bomar and Quinn's dismissal) for the guilty parties would have set all kinds of records for efficiency when compared to similiar cases handled in the court system today.

In fact, I dare say that if all other cases were handled as quickly that there might be more than a few lawyers looking for other means to make a living.

[Vaevictis]

1) Why was Oklahoma investigating the employment of football players by the dealership in the original investigation?
2) If the Peterson/Lexus investigation was altered to include investigation of student athlete employment, how was no payment discrepancy found?

(...)

Once again, did Stoops know? Probably not. Did Compliance do their job? That, I believe is what the NCAA will focus on and as stated on hornfans, the NCAA may require revamping of the Compliance Department to address these, and other issues in the future.

The first two questions are good questions, but clearly are not the questions that really get to the heart of the matter. Those questions would be:

1. Did OU fail to detect the violations through its own negligence?
2. Did OU fail to detect the violations through active malfeasance of its staff?
3. Did OU fail to detect the violations in spite of taking appropriate action?

The first two imply penalties. The third does not.



"Oklahoma also investigated the employment of football players by the dealership but found no violations."

It is a curious thing that Oklahoma would release a public, absolute statement like this without checking any of the documents mentioned above, that would have inevitably led them to the truth.
That statement is not as absolute as you seem to think it is. It states that:

1. OU investigated the employment of football players by the dealership. (fact not in contention)
2. OU did not find any violations at that time. (another fact that is not in contention)

This is not the same as saying, "There are no violations at that dealership," which is what you seem to be implying was said.

Really, what it boils down to is that auditors do their best, and they have to rely on the documentation that they receive. If that documentation is incomplete or falsified, and they are unable to detect that it is incomplete or falsified, there's really nothing that they can do.

The reason I mention this is that it is not infeasible that the GM falsified or failed to provide all relevant documentation, and it is not infeasible that the GM did so in such a way that the auditors were unable to detect it. What you see to be forgetting/ignoring is that there was at least one inside man at the dealership, and auditors have a really tough time when faced with a sufficiently competent, correctly placed inside man.

Post-buyout, that inside man may not have been in a position to cover things up anymore. This is one way frauds involving an inside man can be detected -- once that guy is unable to cover, the whole thing unravels.

[Scott D]

Hey man, I am a flawless spelldog...that is a repost from Bob Barry Jr. with no corrections. It does look a bit like James Hale's work.

You should check the content instead of being a spell police schmuck...unless of course your screen name is reflective of your age.

nah that was too properly written to be hael's work ;)

[soonerboy_odanorth]

With information coming to light that there are missing documents pertaining to other athletes' employment and pay, surely you aren't implicating the Hudiburg group are you?!!!

The questions posed are irrelevant, unless you are attempting to implicate the Hudiburg group in the situation.

The issue remains, what did compliance do, or not do, when it conducted its investigation into the car dealership and before it issued its clean bill of health.

No sir. My implication is that the previous ownership group of BRSI did not willfully cooperate nor offer full disclosure in the original investigation of the athletes' employment. And to the contrary that Hudiberg is to be commended for doing so in this matter.

The questions are quite relevant as the timeline you suggest implicates that the University of Oklahoma had (or had access to) all of the documentation it needed to conduct a more thorough investigation of the athletes' employment which would have uncovered the violations at the time they released said "university has investigated employment but found no discrepancies" statement of April 19.

My contention is that they did not until Hudiberg, in the course of their own audit of the former BRSI ownership group's financials, alerted the Athletic Department to discrepancies sometime after the course of the original Peterson investigation, and were then given full access. (Unless my memory is completely shot that is exactly what was outlined in the investigations findings documents produced by the University to the NCAA as published in the Oklahoman.)

"The issue remains, what did compliance do, or not do, when it conducted its investigation into the car dealership and before it issued its clean bill of health."

My questions are even more relevant given the speculative and argumentative nature of the posed question. The University did not declare a clean bill of health. That is not a factual interpretation of the statment. The university only made a statement on April 19 that they had investigated the employment of athletes and found no violations. They did not state the depth and breadth of the the investigation or what they were allowed to investigate by the previous ownership group of BRSI. Nor did they state that they would not be continuing to monitor athletes' employment there, nor did they state that they would not continue to investigate athletes' employment.

The fact is they did continue to monitor, they did respond to tips, and they did continue the investigation.

Is that or is that not correct, Counselor!?!!?

(This is where you blow up Jack Nicholson-style and say, "YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT IT IS!!!")

:P

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Someone stated somewhere (here or another thread or baord) that the NCAA will nail OU whenever it can because we took away their monopoly on the TV contracts. I assert that this is more about this than anything else. Only thing saving Georgia is that they haven't been as good as we have been.

Screw the NCAA!

[Easting]

Lid--

In your post, you state that there are only two possible reasons for OU failing to catch these infractions.

1. it was a blind eye turned
or
2. incompetence.

You fail to address, and I don't think it fits either of your proposed scenarios, that it was the players knowingly decieving the compliance department. For instance, I assume there are processes in place to verifiy employment and such (there I go assuming), and I would imagine they were investigated. However, I do honestly believe these two players were trying to pull the wool over on everyone, falsifying documentation, lying and just being downright dishonest. To me, the fact that they admit to doing it and accepted the boot off the team without appeal, is an admission of wilfully committing these violations.

While the verification processes can always be improved it never will be perfect as long as you have dishonest people, such as Bomar and Quinn. The only way you can ensure it never happens again is to ban all players from being compensated in any way while a student/athlete.

If there is a way to get something for nothing, liars and cheats will find a way to get it no matter the consequences.

[Doged]

1. It's been stated repeatedly that the NCAA did not receive the email "tip" until it was forwarded by OU along with the notification regarding the investigation.

2. Student athletes at OU are required to submit and sign documentation regarding their employment and an agreement to have their employment audited for compliance with NCAA rules. The cheating players submitted all the required paper work and signed stating it was true to the best of their knowledge.

3. Since McCrea and the players were obviously determined to cheat, it would take a complete moron to think that unaltered records were provided to the audit team. The audit team examined the records they were provided and found no discrepancies. Rumor and innuendo indicated a problem existed, but examination of "certified factual" documentation showed no discrepancies.

4. After the change in ownership, with McCrae out of the picture, true records became available, the cheating became "provable" and the players were dismissed.

I don't see where any of this is difficult to understand, even for a whorn.

[jrsooner]

I do think a few additional lost scholarships and some changes in the compliance department will be assessed.The funny thing about this is you probably don't know squat about the OU compliance office. They have been changing and strengthening their tools and staff. Anyone who has taken the time to take a serious look at the department can see that.

[jrsooner]

Really, what it boils down to is that auditors do their best, and they have to rely on the documentation that they receive. If that documentation is incomplete or falsified, and they are unable to detect that it is incomplete or falsified, there's really nothing that they can do.WOOHOO!!! Somebody finally gets it!!!! How many of you went through an audit before? You only give the auditor what specifically they ask for - nothing more, and if you can get away with less - that's better! So in this case, OU probably had a date range that they could ask for. During that date range, Idiot 1 and Idiot 2 may have been "legal", and the the months after the date range was when the "payoffs" occurred. Hence you give the auditors the legal stuff and not mention the latter stuff outside the audit period.

[CobraKai]

Having said all that, I don't think OU will be hit by huge sanctions.... I do think a few additional lost scholarships and some changes in the compliance department will be assessed.

Unfortunately I think you may be right here...only because we always get teh shaft. However, if we get hit with sanctions and Ohio State/USC do not this will be highway robbery of Gordon Reise proportions.

[FaninAma]

The only way that OU could have gotten the information quicker would have been to sue BRSI and serve them with a discovery request back in 2005. But what valid reason would they have had to make such a drastic move?

Lid, really, what part about the facts that indicate Bomar and Quinn lied about and covered up their employment with BRSI and were helped in this coverup by the then GM of BRSI do you not understand?

Do you have any ethical codes of conduct for your office employees? What measures do you go to to ascertain that they are conducting themselves in an ehtical manner and that everything they have claimed is true on their employment records is in fact true?? Do you give them lie detector tests? Do you monitor them with detective agencies? Obviously OU was wrong in so much as they trusted Bomar and Quinn to not lie on their disclosure forms. Since you seem to be an expert on how to catch lying employees immediatedly perhaps you can give us all a few tips on how to do this.

[TexasLidig8r]

The only way that OU could have gotten the information quicker would have been to sue BRSI and serve them with a discovery request back in 2005. But what valid reason would they have had to make such a drastic move?

Lid, really, what part about the facts that indicate Bomar and Quinn lied about and covered up their employment with BRSI and were helped in this coverup by the then GM of BRSI do you not understand?

Do you have any ethical codes of conduct for your office employees? What measures do you go to to ascertain that they are conducting themselves in an ehtical manner and that everything they have claimed is true on their employment records is in fact true?? Do you give them lie detector tests? Do you monitor them with detective agencies? Obviously OU was wrong in so much as they trusted Bomar and Quinn to not lie on their disclosure forms. Since you seem to be an expert on how to catch lying employees immediatedly perhaps you can give us all a few tips on how to do this.

Well, we have keystroke monitors and can monitor every phone call made by our employees, so that helps substantially. :)

Fan.. we know Bomar and Quinn lied. If that was the beginning, middle and end of the story, OU would not be facing the NCAA again on April 14. That, unfortunately, for your university is not the end of the story.

As for increasing the likelihood of lessening the ability to cheat, defraud, or run afoul of the rules, compliance could have had their student athletes sign a waiver/consent form requiring them to disclose all of their employers and allowing the university to obtain employment records for those athletes. They could have required those employers (or, those employers who employ multiple athletes) to submit copies of time records to compliance on a pay period basis? Does compliance do that?

Then, they could have more closely monitored the employers by random checks and comparing the pay records received from the employer with records turned in by the athlete. It is not just that the improprieties were not initially caught (although, that in itself raises some concerns) it is also the fact that effective procedures were obviously not implemented to attempt to lessen the likelhood of this happening, especially with a big player.

Keep in mind that Big Red was not an insignificant player. As I understand it, in addition to the 17 - 22 athletes working at Big Red over the course of the past few years, they also supplied cars to the athletic department. The university obviously knew of Big Red's substantial presence within the university community.

In short, many kids, especially athletes who have been pampered their entire life, are going to lie. A university needs to take as many proactive steps as possible to eliminate the probability of athletes and alums and fans from dodging the system.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Its common knowledge all Texass fans have microscopic thingy majigs and that Mack Brown works at Big Gay Al's Big Gay Boat Ride in the off season!

[BASSooner]

Why should we hate texas anymore? They are our biggest fans:D


They now have a thread on hornfans.com about OUr university.

[Ash]

Fan.. we know Bomar and Quinn lied. If that was the beginning, middle and end of the story, OU would not be facing the NCAA again on April 14. That, unfortunately, for your university is not the end of the story.



Oh, so you've been present at these meetings or privy to the exchanges? Great, pray tell what is really going on?

Considering that you're having a mental masterbation orgy due to a newspaper story that has been shown to contain factual errors, maybe you should just give the self-indulgent self-righteous speculation a rest.

****ing :texan: , :rolleyes:

[usmc-sooner]

what's funny is UT is known as the University that "takes care of their players"

they are know nationwide as being very corrupt as far as dealing with players. How many of Mack's misfits have their cases thrown out or dismissed?
One of my fellow Marines had a brother who was physical therapist for their football team and he said that everyone was hooked up or taken care of.

[jrsooner]

Well, we have keystroke monitors and can monitor every phone call made by our employees, so that helps substantially. Do you actually monitor every phone call? Do you correlate every phone call to every destination call to see if it’s related to an individual? Let’s see… home phone numbers? Cell phone numbers (of the person, family members and friends)? Every pay phone in a city that a person might use? Does your monitoring system correlate all these calls and tell you how many times a contact has been made with one individual? Now add every possible phone that a coach or individual may use on the university to call them? I doubt your phone systems are that exact. That’s what the NCAA requires of the universities.

Think about it… how many staff members you are going to burn to cover all of these. OU now has a system that will help correlate these calls. It was designed to help them out. It probably doesn’t catch everything, but it helps.


As for increasing the likelihood of lessening the ability to cheat, defraud, or run afoul of the rules, compliance could have had their student athletes sign a waiver/consent form requiring them to disclose all of their employers and allowing the university to obtain employment records for those athletes. They could have required those employers (or, those employers who employ multiple athletes) to submit copies of time records to compliance on a pay period basis? Does compliance do that? You forget those request forms will be for a designated period of time. All athletes have forms to fill out when they take a job to notify the compliancy department of the position. BUT if you leave your job, then go back to the same company a few months later, then the University has no way of knowing it, unless the athlete states through the process that they are working there again. In this case, the university would not be able to get the records of the months that were illegal, just the legal part. Welcome to the audit cat and mouse games. From what I can tell from your responses, you don’t know squat about how the internal/external auditor games are played. This is a game I played a lot over the past 10 years. I know ways to beat the system, and try to find ways to strengthen the controls to catch the deviations.


Then, they could have more closely monitored the employers by random checks and comparing the pay records received from the employer with records turned in by the athlete. And how do you figure that you are going to get it all? I can easily get a dummy SSN number (thousands do it every year after crossing the border) and assign that to the two players. Have them fill out a legal card using their correct information, and then have them fill out a secondary card using the “incorrect” information. There. I just busted your system. Another way is to pay them out of petty cash for the business. Prove it that they worked more hours than they should have by reviewing the records. You can’t!

[jrsooner]

Keep in mind that Big Red was not an insignificant player.Sorta like this guy...

mackie's little buddy...
http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/images/2002_03/main_images/005/brown_mccombs_200.jpg

just having a few of his close friends over for a BBQ...
http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/images/2002_03/main_images/005/mccombs_picnic_200.jpg

He's given over $50 million. Is seen all over the place with athletes, has dealerships all over the place there, where he could easily hide athletes. Built their softball stadium for them. So Lidig... when are you going to start going after all of Red McComb's employee records to see if he's hiding an athlete or two? :)

I'm not saying he is, but heck... he's a major player for texas. Big Booster. Has plenty of opportunities to "help" athletes. Is texas' comliancy department monitoring his and his employees every move? I doubt it. What negligence on their part! The horror of it!

[FaninAma]

As for increasing the likelihood of lessening the ability to cheat, defraud, or run afoul of the rules, compliance could have had their student athletes sign a waiver/consent form requiring them to disclose all of their employers and allowing the university to obtain employment records for those athletes. They could have required those employers (or, those employers who employ multiple athletes) to submit copies of time records to compliance on a pay period basis? Does compliance do that?


Counselor, that's the entire point you're not seeming to grasp. OU does exactly that. Bomar and Quinn filled out the waiver/consent form stating that they were not working at BRSI or anywhere else. So how in the hell can OU go after or otherwise request employment records if the players lied and were deceitful on the original disclosure form and OU is not aware that the players are employed at BRSI? How do you not understand that point?

That's why Bomar and Quinn were dismissed. They falsified their employment disclosure form and admitted they falsified it.

[Vaevictis]

They could have required those employers (or, those employers who employ multiple athletes) to submit copies of time records to compliance on a pay period basis? Does compliance do that?

Then, they could have more closely monitored the employers by random checks and comparing the pay records received from the employer with records turned in by the athlete.

The real difficulty here is that the employer was in on the scam. Let's assume the University did require this documentation -- what's to prevent the employer from falsifying it?

Is the university then going to require all of its athlete's employers to submit to full blown financial audits? Nobody would hire them. I sure as hell wouldn't. It's too damn expensive to submit to an audit just for one employee.

Really, if there's any remaining confusion on what I'm talking about, I'll put it in terms of your profession: Let's say you're in discovery trying to gather evidence to make your case. You make your requests, and you get some documentation back. You don't find the evidence you need in the documentation that they provide. What can you do at this point? Maybe you go to a judge and try to get the judge to compel more production? If the judge says "No," and you can't make your case off of the documentation provided, and the only place you can get evidence from is from that documentation, you're pretty much screwed, right?

It's the same thing with an auditor. But you at least have a judge who might compel more production. The auditor just has to make do with whatever the business is willing to provide and make his judgment off of that.

[utex74]

Have you ever gotten over the fact the whorns LOVE us? They do! ANYTHING that happens, there are threads about it. Even when Landry Jones comitted. There is whole thread about it!:D

I'm sure it is just a coincidence, but it seems like any time anything happens to the Horns that I see a thread about it on here.

[utex74]

i will say that if your starting QB has a job, the university should know about it.....whether he's signed the proper document or not

The info out there has it that OU facilitated the employment at BRSI for some two dozen players. I do not know if this is true, but is it? That would give a different impression I think you would agree.

[utex74]

Sapper... we heard the "this is the season" mantra before.. in fact, just this very past season, the old "Now the Vince is gone, we're going to kill Texas." Reality and perception were very different.

Further, it is not in Texas' best interest for OU to fall into mediocrity as a result of NCAA sanctions. We have seen how the RRS can be a spring board to a BCS bowl and national championship. If one of the teams were down, the game would lose its significance. There is no pride or glory in defeating the run of the mill teams... your Okie Lites, Missouris and such.

Lid, you hit the nail on the head. We do not need for OU to suck. We need them to be scary good and lose just one game a year. In October. In Dallas.

[C&CDean]

Lid, you hit the nail on the head. We do not need for OU to suck. We need them to be scary good and lose just one game a year. In October. In Dallas.

How about we lose that one.....and another one for good measure.....and still end up conference champs while UT sucks hind tit? Works for me.

[FaninAma]

The info out there has it that OU facilitated the employment at BRSI for some two dozen players. I do not know if this is true, but is it? That would give a different impression I think you would agree.

So 17 = 2 dozen? Man I wished I had matriculated at Texas so I could understand that new math.

If Boren, Castiglione and Stoops are dumb enough to to self-report, go to the trouble of obtaining all of the records for all of the players who ever worked at BRSI, turning those records over to the NCAA and then trying to cover something up to protect Peterson then I, for one, think OU deserves the death penalty.

Therefore I am fairly confident that the above didn't happen.

Boren wanted to fire Sampson, the all time winningest basketball coach in OU's history. He's not going to be complicit in any deal to cover up for a cheating player or a dumb@$$ booster.

BTW, I wouldn't be suprised if the DMN ran a 3 page expose on OU and tried to tie in the Bomar/Quinn situation with what the horn fans like to call the "culture of cheating in Oklahoma" by going all the way back to the Wilkinson and Barry Switzer tenures.

[FaninAma]

Fan.. we know Bomar and Quinn lied. If that was the beginning, middle and end of the story, OU would not be facing the NCAA again on April 14. That, unfortunately, for your university is not the end of the story.

Lid,

So in your line of work when you know the opposing counsel's client is lying then the whole case is over at that point? That's all you take with you to present before the judge? You don't go through the nuisance of gathering evidence to support your client's version of events? Or is it that the judges always just take your word for it that opposing counsel's client is a liar and there is no need to hear the evidence or have any formal hearing to review the evidence? I guess you're like Perry Mason....you break down the witness and wrap up all your cases without ever having to have the judge make a ruling.

Give me a f'ing break.

OU initiated a NCAA investigation by self-reporting. Nobody expected anything other than for the process to play out in the usual manner.

I would have thought that an attorney would understand the legal process of evidence gathering, review of that evidence by both interested parties and , finally, a judgement on the merits of the evidence/case by an impartial judge. Are you really suprised that this case is going through the formal steps that every NCAA investigation goes through?

Damn, I guess I'm giving you too much credit for being a semi-objective, intelligent horn fan.

[bakerjrb]

With all the hair-splitting of details about who-knew-what-when being hashed out in this thread, I think that all involved are failing to look at the big picture in this issue.

If the OU athletic department was involved in the payment of Quinn and Bomar by BRSI, does anyone really think that they would approve of an O-lineman to be paid more than the starting QB? :)

[Scott D]

well, since Quinn kept going in and out of the coaching staff's doghouse, he had more free time than the starting QB ;)

[TexasLidig8r]

Lid,


I would have thought that an attorney would understand the legal process of evidence gathering, review of that evidence by both interested parties and , finally, a judgement on the merits of the evidence/case by an impartial judge. Are you really suprised that this case is going through the formal steps that every NCAA investigation goes through?

Damn, I guess I'm giving you too much credit for being a semi-objective, intelligent horn fan.

Oh Sweet Blue Jebus on a bicycle! When I have even insinuated that the process shouldn't be strictly adhered to? If formal steps were not followed, OU would be screaming about lack of due process... and would have a very good case!

It would appear that at this juncture, most people are not privy to all of the material that OU and the NCAA have reviewed and most Texas fans are screaming, "probation, probation, it's the end of the world for OU" and OU fans are screaming, "we self policed.. nothing to see here.. move along." More often than not, reality is ensconced between the two extremes.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Well, we have keystroke monitors and can monitor every phone call made by our employees, so that helps substantially. :)

Fan.. we know Bomar and Quinn lied. If that was the beginning, middle and end of the story, OU would not be facing the NCAA again on April 14. That, unfortunately, for your university is not the end of the story.

As for increasing the likelihood of lessening the ability to cheat, defraud, or run afoul of the rules, compliance could have had their student athletes sign a waiver/consent form requiring them to disclose all of their employers and allowing the university to obtain employment records for those athletes. They could have required those employers (or, those employers who employ multiple athletes) to submit copies of time records to compliance on a pay period basis? Does compliance do that?

Then, they could have more closely monitored the employers by random checks and comparing the pay records received from the employer with records turned in by the athlete. It is not just that the improprieties were not initially caught (although, that in itself raises some concerns) it is also the fact that effective procedures were obviously not implemented to attempt to lessen the likelhood of this happening, especially with a big player.

Keep in mind that Big Red was not an insignificant player. As I understand it, in addition to the 17 - 22 athletes working at Big Red over the course of the past few years, they also supplied cars to the athletic department. The university obviously knew of Big Red's substantial presence within the university community.

In short, many kids, especially athletes who have been pampered their entire life, are going to lie. A university needs to take as many proactive steps as possible to eliminate the probability of athletes and alums and fans from dodging the system.

Paragraph 2 here gets to the heart of the problem. And that is, what audit rights to BRSI's records does OU have? I'm guessing that the only audit rights OU has are granted by release forms that the players sign saying OU can audit their employment records. OU would have no right to sift through all of BRSI's employment records unless granted that right by BRSI, and I'm guessing there are privacy concerns that may prevent that.

Given this, when OU went in to audit all they had were the forms from the players that properly filed these employment forms with the University. Given that Bomar and Quinn did not file a form, the University would not be looking for those records. The only way they could have discovered it was to ask questions of employees there. I would certainly be interested to know if the auditors talked to employees there and asked questions about any other players that might have worked there. But again, BRSI would be under no obligation to even allow the auditors access to its employees. This is not an SEC required financial audit.

So if the NCAA comes down with sanctions for OU here, then it sets a precedent that will effect all member universities. Essentially, compliance offices will have to become spy agencies. I wonder about the legal implications of that.

[Big Red Cop]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/040507dnspooucars.35bdb26.html

[Funky G]

The fact that the horn fans are wildly interested in this issue, and truly want probation from the bottom of their hearts, is a tremendous illustration of their fear of OU.

In the Stoops era they have won games against OU, but know that their greatest test every year is OU. Is Texas OU's greatest test? Three national championship games and 5 BCS bowls may indicate differently.

[TexasLidig8r]

The fact that the horn fans are wildly interested in this issue, and truly want probation from the bottom of their hearts, is a tremendous illustration of their fear of OU.

In the Stoops era they have won games against OU, but know that their greatest test every year is OU. Is Texas OU's greatest test? Three national championship games and 5 BCS bowls may indicate differently.

Do you honestly believe that if the roles were reversed, the anticipatory elation on this site wouldn't approach biblical proportions?

And.. I imagine Texas' test against the then, proclaimed best team in the history of God in the Rose Bowl was a bit more significant than the OU beatdown.

[King Crimson]

Do you honestly believe that if the roles were reversed, the anticipatory elation on this site wouldn't approach biblical proportions?

And.. I imagine Texas' test against the then, proclaimed best team in the history of God in the Rose Bowl was a bit more significant than the OU beatdown.

it's hard for us to imagine the roles being reversed, as godly and pure and white as UT football has always been.

we all know the reason the SWC folded was because all the OTHER conference schools were cheating to try and compete with the virtue of Texas.

that pulls a heart string, don't it? if i had a dollar for everytime i read that on hornfans in the late 90's and early 2000's....i'd be as rich as the UT grad i wish i was. :rolleyes:

[soonerboy_odanorth]

And.. I imagine Texas' test against the then, proclaimed best team in the history of God in the Rose Bowl was a bit more significant than the OU beatdown.

Yeah, but our beatdowns on you are bigger than your beatdowns on us... so nanny-nanny boo-boo...:P

[FaninAma]

Do you honestly believe that if the roles were reversed, the anticipatory elation on this site wouldn't approach biblical proportions?



Most likely. But I would have no sympathy for any Sooner fan going over to a horn fan board trying to rub it in...not saying that you have necessarily done that.

The problem I have with horn fans is that they, in general, take the rivalry to a more bitter, nastier, more personal level and really do convey the impression that Oklahoma, it's fans and those who live here are inferior human beings. They carry the rivalry between the 2 schools to a level I would consider to indicate outright bigotry on the part of horn fans. If you don't believe me please go and read the threads on hornfans.com regarding this issue.

And when a group of people hold that vitriolic a view of my family, and the state I live in and was born and raised in, I tend to hold a slightly negative view of that entire group.

[King Crimson]

Most likely. But I would have no sympathy for any Sooner fan going over to a horn fan board trying to rub it in...not saying that you have necessarily done that.

The problem I have with horn fans is that they, in general, take the rivalry to a more nitter, more personal level and really do convey the impression that Oklahoma, it's fans and theose who live here are inferior human beings. They carry the rivalry between the 2 schools to a level I would consider bigotry. If you don't believe me please go and read the threads on the hornfans regarding this issue.

And when a group of people hold that vitriolic a view of my family, and the state I live in and was born and raised in I tend to hold a slightly negative view of that entire group.


this is exactly true. especially the last two paragraphs. in the late 90's i used to post at hornfans.....and this was exactly the mentality....it's the same at texags.

i find it kind of funny, as does most of the rest of the nation....

[TexasLidig8r]

Most likely. But I would have no sympathy for any Sooner fan going over to a horn fan board trying to rub it in...not saying that you have necessarily done that.

The problem I have with horn fans is that they, in general, take the rivalry to a more bitter, nastier, more personal level and really do convey the impression that Oklahoma, it's fans and those who live here are inferior human beings. They carry the rivalry between the 2 schools to a level I would consider to indicate outright bigotry on the part of horn fans. If you don't believe me please go and read the threads on hornfans.com regarding this issue.

And when a group of people hold that vitriolic a view of my family, and the state I live in and was born and raised in, I tend to hold a slightly negative view of that entire group.

Fan, you will find moronic fans in any fanbase. The internet has now given a voice, albeit, anonymous, to an entirely new generation of fans and exposure to so many fans which would in years past, would have stayed undercover.

But, let's face it, the vitriole and hated on here, for not only UT, but the State of Texas, is legend. Younger fans and alums are particularly guilty of that.. from both schools. Texas' fans can be condescending and arrogant. Oklahoma fans can be spiteful and short sighted.

However, I don't agree that an entire fan base can, or should be condemned because of the irresponsible views of others in that fan base.

[FaninAma]

Fan, you will find moronic fans in any fanbase. The internet has now given a voice, albeit, anonymous, to an entirely new generation of fans and exposure to so many fans which would in years past, would have stayed undercover.

But, let's face it, the vitriole and hated on here, for not only UT, but the State of Texas, is legend. Younger fans and alums are particularly guilty of that.. from both schools. Texas' fans can be condescending and arrogant. Oklahoma fans can be spiteful and short sighted.

However, I don't agree that an entire fan base can, or should be condemned because of the irresponsible views of others in that fan base.

Lid, I understand that you are looking at this from a perspective that is 180 degrees from mine. But I really feel that my perspective is the more accurate. I have lived in Texas for a while before moving back to God's country last year. I knew and had a lot of friends who were Texans. By and large, Texans are good people and share a lot of the same admirable traits with the people who live in Oklahoma.

Understanding that, I have always taken the opportunity to chastise any Sooner fan who seems to lump all Texans in with that arrogant, condescending breed of fan that follows the program down in Austin. I honestly don't ever recall having to do that more than a few times. On the other hand, once an OU/Oklahoma/Okie bashing rant type thread gets started on a horn board the posts roll on and on and on trashing everything about this state. I have yet to see one single burnt-orange supporter step up and remind his fellow @$$holes that there are some good people living in Oklahoma and not all of them are Sooner fans.

I will give it up to you if you can find even a single example of a horn fan doing that. I won't hold my breath. You would think that if there were a few decent fans among the burnt-orange clad horde that at some point a reasonable voice would appear on a horn board and remind posters to separate their hatred of the OU program from the state of Oklahoma and it's citizens. Again, I have never seen a horn fan do this on a message board.

If fans regard texas fans as arrogant and pathetically ego-driven it's because that is the image presented by almost 100% of the fans who post on message boards.

[stoopified]

I would put "going on 25," but we don't use Bama math. ;)If you did it would be 28 anyhow.

[footballfanatic]

what's funny is UT is known as the University that "takes care of their players"

they are know nationwide as being very corrupt as far as dealing with players. How many of Mack's misfits have their cases thrown out or dismissed?
One of my fellow Marines had a brother who was physical therapist for their football team and he said that everyone was hooked up or taken care of.

Yes, we have problem players. Who doesn't? The difference between the Universities has been that UT problems have been around players solely making bad choices. The problems at OU have been more institutional; A coach making 500 illegal phone calls, or a dealership with close ties to the University illegally rewarding the players. (Yes, I know, I know, the players were lying about their hours, but don't tell me people at the dealership didn't know--they knew, and some of them were upset about it. That is why the NCAA has been investigating OU and not UT, and why OU is awaiting punishment. Fair? Probably not, but things that look more institutional get most of the attention from th NCAA. We'll see what falls out at USC.

[Funky G]

Yes, we have problem players. Who doesn't? The difference between the Universities has been that UT problems have been around players solely making bad choices. The problems at OU have been more institutional; A coach making 500 illegal phone calls, or a dealership with close ties to the University illegally rewarding the players. (Yes, I know, I know, the players were lying about their hours, but don't tell me people at the dealership didn't know--they knew, and some of them were upset about it. That is why the NCAA has been investigating OU and not UT, and why OU is awaiting punishment. Fair? Probably not, but things that look more institutional get most of the attention from th NCAA. We'll see what falls out at USC.

To think that UT and many other schools are not violating rules is not being very intelligent..

[sooner518]

We'll see what falls out at USC.
Im gonna go ahead and guess: absolutely nothing.

what do i win?

[footballfanatic]

To think that UT and many other schools are not violating rules is not being very intelligent..

I don't know if UT is violating rules--it's sort of like Lance Armstrong. The french all say he cheated but they never proved it. UT runs a clean program. Texas doesn't have to bend the rules, because people want to come there. Where Texas falls down is in graduation rates, which are low. but the player problems have been worse than reported. There are two cases of two former players which I happen to know for a fact were worse than reported.

[XingTheRubicon]

UT runs a clean program.


Travis county judges sitting on the 50 doesn't hurt.

[utex74]

How about we lose that one.....and another one for good measure.....and still end up conference champs while UT sucks hind tit? Works for me.

Something like that could NEVER happen. :O

[utex74]

The funny thing about this is you probably don't know squat about the OU compliance office. They have been changing and strengthening their tools and staff. Anyone who has taken the time to take a serious look at the department can see that.

In addition to improving the compliance dept., it would have made a huge statement to ban McCrary from OU for life instead of only five years. It would also have sent a serious meesage to any other over zealous boosters out there that they could lose all contact with OU if they put it in jeopardy.

[picasso]

Lid, it took my first trip to the RRS game to realize UT fans arrogance. by the 3rd trip, I was tired of hearing state and school smack. it was sad. and it mostly came from 30 something drunks wearing polo shirts and cowboy boots.

get a ****ing life man.

[King Crimson]

Texas fans are hilarious. in their world some guy huffing paint thinner under a bridge in New Braunfels is GREATER than any other guy on planet Earth becuase....BY GOD, he's a Texan!

though, i have to admit...i find ATM fans the most despicable about "state" smack.

[OU_Sooners75]

Why are you all arguing this with a Whorn fan?

Seriously, he is just going off what the DMN prints about it.

Myles Brand, NCAA President: "(OU) acted with integrity in taking swift and decisive action," on this matter.

Granted Brand does not oversee the infractions committee, but when the head honcho that seems hell bent on ruining big schools says something of this nature, it means something good.

If OU receives infractions, when is USC going to receive infractions concerning Dwayne Jarrett and Reggie Bush?

[jrsooner]

It would also have sent a serious meesage to any other over zealous boosters out there that they could lose all contact with OU if they put it in jeopardy.What's funny in my discussion that I had with a compliance rep from OU, they stated that the NCAA takes the attitude "once a booster, always a booster". So if you "banned" them, they would still be considered a booster from the NCAA.

I'm a "booster" (a little fish compared to others that I know), but I still have very little contact with OU besides tax deductions and the alumni clubs down here in Katy. I see the girls play softball whenever they are near Houston. Saying that I'm banned from the games don't mean much to me. If OU didn't take my money, then I'm pretty sure I can find other organizations I could use for a tax write-off. In fact, it could backfire on OU, because then I could really do some damage if you read the rules. There are a ton of little "rules" that boosters can break that would get the University in trouble.

Banning doesn't mean much. It's not "enforceable", and if they state this person is banned, and the person shows up without being caught by OU, then you'd have them saying OU wasn't exercising their controls.

[jrsooner]

This is a cool link....

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.MI_Search_Input?p_Cmd=Go_Sea rch

Quick summary on all the major infractions per school in the NCAA.

[goingoneight]

In addition to improving the compliance dept., it would have made a huge statement to ban McCrary from OU for life instead of only five years. It would also have sent a serious meesage to any other over zealous boosters out there that they could lose all contact with OU if they put it in jeopardy.
I don't think McRae is coming back anytime soon, sounds to me like he's on probation for five years, but doesn't want anythign else to do with OU beyond that. Think about it, he's ****ed and thinks everyone "made him out to be the bad guy," because he got banned. He doesn't have his job at BRSI anymore, so why go back? He's not very well liked to begin with, and that dates back to the beginning of his career at BRSI.

[insuranceman_22]

October 2008 - OU 38 UT 24 - Put it in the bank.

[TexasLidig8r]

Pic, it took my first trip to the RRS game to realize OU fans blind, irrational hatred for all things UT. by the 3rd trip, I was tired of hearing state and school smack. it was sad. and it mostly came from 30 something drunks wearing OU jerseys and tennis shoes.

get a ****ing life man.

It's all perspective.

[colleyvillesooner]

It's all perspective.

We're like that cause you guys are **** suckers. :D

[sooner518]

i dont like UT because I am an OU fan and they are our rival.

I never really cared about Texas, the state, until I got to college (OU) and anyone I met from Texas talked crap about how Texas was so much better than Oklahoma at everything (and how they are allowed to fly their flag at the same height as the US flag which is idiotic and horribly arrogant). After being repeatedly beaten down by that arrogance, I have grown to dislike the state.

and I swear, if I hear another of my friends refer to Texas as a country, I am going to choke someone.

[BASSooner]

I was born a texan and I do love the state(northern Texas), however, a vast majority of the people there are just absolutely obnoxious.


I also agree with sooner518. Texan or not, anyone who says that it is a country should be shot.

[Pricetag]

Texas' fans can be condescending and arrogant. Oklahoma fans can be spiteful and short sighted.
Jebus, the dude tries to brag even when ripping both sets of fans.