Hummer more 'green friendly' than Prius Hybrid

[Jerk]

clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188 (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188)
Text:

March 7, 2007
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

[Vaevictis]

The nickel plant is teh suck.

As for the rest:

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1632889&postcount=43

The CNW Marketing study is bunk.

[TUSooner]

Why does a Hummer have an expected lifetime of 300k miles and a Toyota only 100k miles?


And is the Prius the only car that uses nickel? Looks like a stretch.

Me skeptical.

[OUDoc]

I think they expect the batteries to only last that long, if you're lucky.

[Ike]

Yeah, Im pretty sure that the study that says the prius only lasts 100K miles is complete and utter hogwash. I haven't read that study as closely as vae did, but (or even at all) but from the anecdotal evidence I have collected from my two friends that own priuses, I'm going to call BS on that one.

[soonerjoker]

sure, because they know that's not true about the nickel in their batteries & also there's never been a jap car built that didn't make 500k miles, most in their 1st year.

[Ike]

sure, because they know that's not true about the nickel in their batteries & also there's never been a jap car built that didn't make 500k miles, most in their 1st year.
I have no idea what the batteries are made of...

However, regarding the 100K miles again, acorrding to an article on about.com, Toyota warranties their batteries at 8 years/100K miles. Cost of replacement batteries is about 3K after warranty, but Toyota claims that they have never had to sell a replacement battery pack yet.

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/hybridcarfaq/f/batterycost.htm
http://hybridcars.about.com/od/hybridcarfaq/f/batterieslast.htm

[SoonerStormchaser]

So the moral of the story is: BUY A HUMMER!!

Woo hoo...as if Asstin needs more hummers on the road...


Idiots.

[Boarder]

Yeah, but all the Hummer drivers are snooty jerks.

[Vaevictis]

Why does a Hummer have an expected lifetime of 300k miles and a Toyota only 100k miles?

I heard an interview by the guy who was in charge of that study. They decided that the Hummer will last 300k miles "because trucks last longer" and that the Toyota will only last 100k miles "because cars last shorter." Seriously. From his description, it was completely arbitrary.


I think they expect the batteries to only last that long, if you're lucky.

As Ike mentioned, Toyota warrants the batteries at 100k miles. In case you don't know anything about how most major manufacturers set warranties, it goes something like this: They figure out what they think the failure curve is on the part -- either by test, analysis of component parts, or just estimation -- and then they say to themselves, "Well, we don't want to have to replace more than X% of these on warranty." And based on the failure curve, they can determine how long (short, really) they need to set the warranty to meet this number.

On an expensive part like these batteries, you can be damned sure that they studied it in depth, and set X to a very low number. Unless they f*cked up somewhere in their engineering (pretty rare for Toyota), there are going to be very few batteries replaced at less than 100k miles. And usually, the way most failure curves work, they curve up sharply eventually, but WELL after the warranty period expires. 100k miles is probably a gross underestimation of the average life of those batteries.

[NormanPride]

BUY A HUMMER YAR YAR YAR!!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX7wzhMvbzo)

[Ike]

I heard an interview by the guy who was in charge of that study. They decided that the Hummer will last 300k miles "because trucks last longer" and that the Toyota will only last 100k miles "because cars last shorter." Seriously. From his description, it was completely arbitrary.

well, it was a marketing study. I don't know of many marketers that know how to look at any kind of real data other than polling data. In fact, if you were to ask them to back up their claim, they would probably conduct a poll and ask how long people would think each of those vehicles would last.

[Oldnslo]

My problem with hybrids and electrics is a bit different:

1) accidents.

What does one of these batteries look like when it's been through an impact of any speed? Is there going to need to be a hazmat team out for accidents?

2) age

How do these batteries do in the salvage yard after a few years of sitting? Again, is this going to be more of an environmental hazard than anyone thinks?

If I were King (of more than the Hillbillies), I'd direct research into making diesels even more efficient and environmentally friendly than they are today.

But, I'm not.

[Vaevictis]

2) age

How do these batteries do in the salvage yard after a few years of sitting? Again, is this going to be more of an environmental hazard than anyone thinks?

I don't know about the accidents, but in the case of the batteries being waste... well, yeah, that's a problem. You can't just dump them in a junkyard -- you have to dispose of them properly. Which, incidentally, is just like any other car battery.



If I were King (of more than the Hillbillies), I'd direct research into making diesels even more efficient and environmentally friendly than they are today.

But, I'm not.

No argument there. Diesels are damned good tech.

[mdklatt]

From the CNW Research (the authors of the "study") web site:


This is a general-consumer report, not a technical document per se. It includes breakdowns of each vehicle’s total energy requirements from Dust to Dust but does not include issues of gigajuelles, kW hours or other unfriendly (to consumers) terms. Perhaps, in time, we will release our data in such technical terms.

It's possible that this is just a typo (and it's not even close) from the liberal arts major responsible for the web page, or it's possible that CNW Research is completely full of ****.

[OUDoc]

As Ike mentioned, Toyota warrants the batteries at 100k miles. In case you don't know anything about how most major manufacturers set warranties, it goes something like this: They figure out what they think the failure curve is on the part -- either by test, analysis of component parts, or just estimation -- and then they say to themselves, "Well, we don't want to have to replace more than X% of these on warranty." And based on the failure curve, they can determine how long (short, really) they need to set the warranty to meet this number.

On an expensive part like these batteries, you can be damned sure that they studied it in depth, and set X to a very low number. Unless they f*cked up somewhere in their engineering (pretty rare for Toyota), there are going to be very few batteries replaced at less than 100k miles. And usually, the way most failure curves work, they curve up sharply eventually, but WELL after the warranty period expires. 100k miles is probably a gross underestimation of the average life of those batteries.

I'm not trying to pick sides on the article (I didn't even read it), but the major concern, like Oldnslo said, is the batteries. Most automotive experts agree on that. No one, not even Toyota, knows how well they'll perform in the long run in real-life situations. My point is, maybe the warranty is 100,000 miles BECAUSE that's the major concern everyone has with hybrids. I'm sure Toyota feels reasonably confident in how long they will last, or they probably wouldn't offer it. However, with a usual 5 year/50,000 mile warranty, battery replacement would seriously factor into a decision to buy/not buy a Prius. Offering the warranty eases that concern.

[yermom]

my buddy has a Prius and you have to be very active in the way you drive it to get mileage approaching the estimated MPG, so the extra $$$ that takes 60 months to break even on, is even a bit more skewed

he said he'd be better off with a Corolla

i don't know about the Prius, but i heard the Honda Insights had a lot of problems with their batteries not lasting very long and being very expensive to replace

i had heard something about BMW working on using capacitors instead of batteries, that seems like it would solve a lot of these problems

[royalfan5]

Either way, I am still going to assume that the person driving a Hummer or Prius is a complete jackass. I have seen nothing to disprove that theory.

[Ike]

From the CNW Research (the authors of the "study") web site:


This is a general-consumer report, not a technical document per se. It includes breakdowns of each vehicle’s total energy requirements from Dust to Dust but does not include issues of gigajuelles, kW hours or other unfriendly (to consumers) terms. Perhaps, in time, we will release our data in such technical terms.


It's possible that this is just a typo (and it's not even close) from the liberal arts major responsible for the web page, or it's possible that CNW Research is completely full of ****.

wow...thats even worse than the understandable "gigajewels"

[Ike]

my buddy has a Prius and you have to be very active in the way you drive it to get mileage approaching the estimated MPG, so the extra $$$ that takes 60 months to break even on, is even a bit more skewed

he said he'd be better off with a Corolla

i don't know about the Prius, but i heard the Honda Insights had a lot of problems with their batteries not lasting very long and being very expensive to replace

i had heard something about BMW working on using capacitors instead of batteries, that seems like it would solve a lot of these problems
They wouldn't solve all of them though...especially considering that a short to ground would cause a very rapid discharge. :eek:

[mdklatt]

wow...thats even worse than the understandable "gigajewels"

You almost expect to see "one point twenty-one jigawatts" somewhere in that report.

[rufnek05]

Yeah, but all the Hummer drivers are snooty jerks.

so are hybrid drivers.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/img/content/season10/1002.gif

[Boarder]

Either way, I am still going to assume that the person driving a Hummer or Prius is a complete jackass. I have seen nothing to disprove that theory.
No kidding. Hippies and Earth haters, all of them.

[Vaevictis]

i had heard something about BMW working on using capacitors instead of batteries, that seems like it would solve a lot of these problems

Not necessarily; high capacitance capacitors are quite expensive, and capacitors can suffer from dialectric deterioration. Worse, most of the high capacitance ones are electrolytic capacitors, which have a nasty habit of springing leaks.

I don't think BMW is going to get much in the way of additional reliability or cost savings from capacitors; I bet they're probably looking at them more as performance enhancers, because I bet your average high voltage capacitor can discharge faster than your average high voltage battery.

(Oh, and frankly, I definately would feel uncomfortable sitting on top of a bank of capacitors. I bet the EF from them would be unhealthy. Batteries are bad enough.)

[rufnek05]

Not necessarily; high capacitance capacitors are quite expensive, and capacitors can suffer from dialectric deterioration. Worse, most of the high capacitance ones are electrolytic capacitors, which have a nasty habit of springing leaks.

I don't think BMW is going to get much in the way of additional reliability or cost savings from capacitors; I bet they're probably looking at them more as performance enhancers, because I bet your average high voltage capacitor can discharge faster than your average high voltage battery.

(Oh, and frankly, I definately would feel uncomfortable sitting on top of a bank of capacitors. I bet the EF from them would be unhealthy. Batteries are bad enough.)

how the hell do u know that off the top of you head. but i could see them using performance enhancers.

[yermom]

Not necessarily; high capacitance capacitors are quite expensive, and capacitors can suffer from dialectric deterioration. Worse, most of the high capacitance ones are electrolytic capacitors, which have a nasty habit of springing leaks.

I don't think BMW is going to get much in the way of additional reliability or cost savings from capacitors; I bet they're probably looking at them more as performance enhancers, because I bet your average high voltage capacitor can discharge faster than your average high voltage battery.

(Oh, and frankly, I definately would feel uncomfortable sitting on top of a bank of capacitors. I bet the EF from them would be unhealthy. Batteries are bad enough.)

i said "these" problems ;)

is the EF that much different than for anything else?

[Vaevictis]

how the hell do u know that off the top of you head. but i could see them using performance enhancers.

Which part? Some of it is education, and some of it is just guesses based off of education.


is the EF that much different than for anything else?

I'm not really certain. I just have a feeling that they'll probably have to ramp the caps to much higher voltages to get the same charge as on a battery, which of course results in stronger EF.

(Mind you, you'd have to be sitting pretty close for it to matter, so it depends on where they put them... Really, I doubt that there are any particular hazards, I'm just a paranoid individual.)

[rufnek05]

capacitors can suffer from dialectric deterioration. Worse, most of the high capacitance ones are electrolytic capacitors, which have a nasty habit of springing leaks.


this part. i'm in engineering physics 2 and i didn't even know that

[Boarder]

this part. i'm in engineering physics 2 and i didn't even know that
Well, Vaevictis obviously had Engineering Physics 3. Duh.

[yermom]

that sounds like more of an Engineering than Physics thing, i mean even in E&M we didn't talk much about specific applications of capacitors

[rufnek05]

Well, Vaevictis obviously had Engineering Physics 3. Duh.

wew, good, i don't feel so bad. i thought falling asleep in class was damaging my gpa

[Vaevictis]

this part. i'm in engineering physics 2 and i didn't even know that

Take a bunch of ECE classes, especially EE Lab III (which doesn't exist anymore), and you'll pick it up somewhere in there.

[Scott D]

why would anyone buy a hummer when there are plenty of women who will give them for free? :confused: ;)

[rufnek05]

why would anyone buy a hummer when there are plenty of women who will give them for free? :confused: ;)


heyooooo

[rufnek05]

Take a bunch of ECE classes, especially EE Lab III (which doesn't exist anymore), and you'll pick it up somewhere in there.

too bad i just switched majors to "construction science". no more math or physics, just lots of buisness and construction classes

[85Sooner]

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188


So here is one for all the Prius Drivers out there. I am sure they wioll now sell theirs and head to the hummer dealership.

[mdklatt]

:les: Gigajuelles!

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Moige.

Heh.

[mdklatt]

The mods are on the ball today.

[Soonerus]

You guys are mostly full of shi-at...I have 74,000 miles on an Insight and for the life of the car it has averaged over 52 MPG...pretty darn good...safety rating are good....emissions rating are the best...I like Hummers, I just choose not to drive one...personal choice, everybody else is free to do what they choose...btw, its not my only car but I love the great mileage for commuting....

[soonerboomer93]

have you taken into consideration the usage of flux capacitors?


set it to return them to the age of dinosaurs, that might keep everyone under 88mph, or might keep them all speeding, i'm not sure:D

[goingoneight]

Smug Alert!!! (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1846993057)