James Cameron is debunking Christianity! [Archive]

Widescreen

2/25/2007, 10:34 AM

http://time-blog.com/middle_east/2007/02/jesus_tales_from_the_crypt.html?xid=rss-mideast

I wonder if he's in this for anything besides money and publicity?

Brace yourself. James Cameron, the man who brought you 'The Titanic' is back with another blockbuster. This time, the ship he's sinking is Christianity.

In a new documentary, Producer Cameron and his director, Simcha Jacobovici, make the starting claim that Jesus wasn't resurrected --the cornerstone of Christian faith-- and that his burial cave was discovered near Jerusalem. And, get this, Jesus sired a son with Mary Magdelene.

No, it's not a re-make of "The Da Vinci Codes'. It's supposed to be true.

Let's go back 27 years, when Israeli construction workers were gouging out the foundations for a new building in the industrial park in the Talpiyot, a Jerusalem suburb. of Jerusalem. The earth gave way, revealing a 2,000 year old cave with 10 stone caskets. Archologists were summoned, and the stone caskets carted away for examination. It took 20 years for experts to decipher the names on the ten tombs. They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua.
Israel's prominent archeologist Professor Amos Kloner didn't associate the crypt with the New Testament Jesus. His father, after all, was a humble carpenter who couldn't afford a luxury crypt for his family. And all were common Jewish names.

There was also this little inconvenience that a few miles away, in the old city of Jerusalem, Christians for centuries had been worshipping the empty tomb of Christ at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Christ's resurrection, after all, is the main foundation of the faith, proof that a boy born to a carpenter's wife in a manger is the Son of God.

But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.

Ever the showman, (Why does this remind me of the impresario in another movie,"King Kong", whose hubris blinds him to the dangers of an angry and very large ape?) Cameron is holding a New York press conference on Monday at which he will reveal three coffins, supposedly those of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. News about the film, which will be shown soon on Discovery Channel, Britain's Channel 4, Canada's Vision, and Israel's Channel 8, has been a hot blog topic in the Middle East (check out a personal favorite: Israelity Bites) Here in the Holy Land, Biblical Archeology is a dangerous profession. This 90-minute documentary is bound to outrage Christians and stir up a titanic debate between believers and skeptics. Stay tuned.
--Tim McGirk/Jerusalem

fadada1

2/25/2007, 10:39 AM

we've all seen TERMINATOR. all kinds of christian overtones there. ok, maybe not.

OklahomaTuba

2/25/2007, 10:45 AM

He should have gone after Islam first.

Oh wait...

Widescreen

2/25/2007, 10:57 AM

He should have gone after Islam first.

Oh wait...
Great. You've just started riots across the middle east. :mad:

fadada1

2/25/2007, 11:01 AM

Great. You've just started riots across the middle east. :mad:
yeah, because they were lacking in that department.

;)

OklahomaTuba

2/25/2007, 11:07 AM

Kind of reminds me about this hoax...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/06/18/jesus.box/index.html

Widescreen

2/25/2007, 11:10 AM

fadada1

2/25/2007, 11:13 AM

But Cameron claims he has DNA evidence. Assuming he was able to extract DNA from a 2000 year old corpse, I wonder what sample he's comparing it to to prove it's Jesus? Did they have a sample of hair from Jesus' hairbrush?
he sent back michael biehn.

OklahomaTuba

2/25/2007, 11:16 AM

Widescreen

2/25/2007, 11:19 AM

It'll be funny if he says that he extracted DNA from the body that's supposedly Jesus and the body that's supposedly Jesus' child, finds that they are linked and pronounces CASE CLOSED!

yermom

2/25/2007, 12:02 PM

Israelity Bites

nice.

is James Cameron trying to become the Christian Salman Rushdie? :D

OklahomaTuba

2/25/2007, 12:06 PM

More like another Dan Brown.

Okieflyer

2/25/2007, 02:48 PM

Yeah I heard he is going to compare the DNA of DaVinci's Great-great-great-great grandson just to be sure!:rolleyes:

soonerhubs

2/25/2007, 06:26 PM

The show's worthless with out Leo and Kate. Just sayin... ;)

crawfish

2/25/2007, 07:38 PM

Dang. Maybe I'll try Scientology now.

Boarder

2/25/2007, 07:40 PM

Dang. Maybe I'll try Scientology now.
Too expensive. I'm going Wicca. Blessed Be.

sanantoniosooner

2/25/2007, 07:46 PM

The Necromongers are on the way.

OklahomaTuba

2/25/2007, 10:38 PM

Too expensive. I'm going Wicca. Blessed Be.

Nah, I suggest dumping all these BS religions, and go with one that has some truth and realism behind, like Hinduism.

http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/envrel/images/vishnu.jpg

yermom

2/25/2007, 10:44 PM

let's not start throwing stones about mythology ;)

Skysooner

2/25/2007, 10:59 PM

Unfortunately, his resurrection isn't the cornerstone of Christianity (his life was).

sanantoniosooner

2/25/2007, 11:23 PM

Unfortunately, his resurrection isn't the cornerstone of Christianity (his life was).
I think you miss something if you separate the two.

jacru

2/25/2007, 11:24 PM

Unfortunately, his resurrection isn't the cornerstone of Christianity (his life was).
Without the resurrection, His life was a lie.

Widescreen

2/26/2007, 12:14 AM

Unfortunately, his resurrection isn't the cornerstone of Christianity (his life was).
The resurrection is absolutely the cornerstone. No resurrection = no Christianity.

Penguin

2/26/2007, 12:25 AM

Christianity has been around for 2000 years. I'm sure whatever Cameron has to say will not bring down Christianity.

Anti-Christians will believe him. Christians will not. Life will go on.

SoonerDood

2/26/2007, 01:21 AM

are these "archaeological experts" overlooking the FACT that coffins weren't used 2,000 years ago?

Ike

2/26/2007, 02:32 AM

are these "archaeological experts" overlooking the FACT that coffins weren't used 2,000 years ago?

It really depends on what they are calling a coffin. Some forms of "burial boxes", for lack of a better general word have been in use for well over 2000 years.

This one for example is at least 3000 years old:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Egypt.KV8.01.jpg

There are probably some that are even older....by thousands of years even. So to say that they are overlooking some fact just based on the fact that they use the word "coffin" is a little disingenuous. What are they talking about when they say "coffin"? I have no idea. I'd be willing to guess it's something other than a box made of pine.

Widescreen

2/26/2007, 01:00 PM

It sounds like they're talking about an ossuary (sp?). Basically a small box containing bones. Like the one that was supposedly the apostle James' that got revealed as a hoax a few years ago.

Ike

2/26/2007, 01:11 PM

It sounds like they're talking about an ossuary (sp?). Basically a small box containing bones. Like the one that was supposedly the apostle James' that got revealed as a hoax a few years ago.

That was kind of what I thought too, but since I haven't seen any of them, I don't know.

Oh, and for the record, I really don't care what anyone thinks about all of this hooplah. Quite frankly, I don't think it's going to change anyones mind. A lot of people that don't want to believe in christianity are going to hail it as evidence that Jesus was a fake without looking critically at the evidence and the methodology used to determine whether or not this was really Jesus and friends ;)
Similarly, people that want to believe in christianity will by and large dismiss it without a critical look at the evidence.

As for me, it's a curiosity, and I'm looking forward to reading the published material. If they don't ever publish these findings along with detailed descriptions of their methodology, you can bet your bippy that it's probably a fake.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that if there isn't already published findings on these boxes with detailed descriptions of the methodology used to determine the identities of those inside, that this is probably all a bunch of BS. One of the first signs of voodoo science is that it often gets pitched directly to the media before it is shown to the scientific community.

OKLA21FAN

2/26/2007, 01:43 PM

a little more detail of the film:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/02/25/tomb_arc.html?category=archaeology&guid=20070225073000

royalfan5

2/26/2007, 01:44 PM

Well, there's always Islam since he hasn't found Muhammed yet.

Hatfield

2/26/2007, 04:22 PM

i never understood why people think this sort of finding would debunk christianity.

and for the record the dna tests would merely be to determine if the child was that of the individuals in the tomb; it isn't meant to show the authenticity that the body is in fact jesus because obviously there is not a sample to compare it to.

and i don't think finding a box of jesus bones makes him a fake. seems more likely that the assention thing got a little hooey in the translation. Would be a better deal if people focused on his message and not where his bones may or may not be

and this place was found in 1980...crazy that the "story" is just now coming to light.

royalfan5

2/26/2007, 04:24 PM

Hatfield

2/26/2007, 04:27 PM

i know. but it is just wierd how people take some aspects of the bible very literal while using interpretation for others....

i am just saying maybe somewhere in the translation the ascension thing was misrepresented...as in they were saying his spirit ascended..who knows.

maybe the spaghetti monster stole him away to his heavenly confines.

Widescreen

2/26/2007, 04:44 PM

Passage Acts 1:9-11:

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
Sounds like they actually saw Him go up. Every translation I've seen indicates the same thing. Pretty tough to misinterpret this.

sooneron

2/26/2007, 04:50 PM

Hatfield

2/26/2007, 05:15 PM

Sounds like they actually saw Him go up. Every translation I've seen indicates the same thing. Pretty tough to misinterpret this.

so we take that passage as literal but not all the other ones? that is what i was getting at earlier with the "well the bible says it" mentality when it says what you (collective... not actually you) want and the "well it is interpretive" when it says something that needs some explanation/interpretation.
all i am saying is that it could just be a misinterpretation or something that changed in translation.

either way...who cares. does the resting place (or lack thereof) really have that much of an importance on his teachings?

jacru

2/26/2007, 05:17 PM

jacru

2/26/2007, 05:27 PM

so we take that passage as literal but not all the other ones? that is what i was getting at earlier with the "well the bible says it" mentality when it says what you (collective... not actually you) want and the "well it is interpretive" when it says something that needs some explanation/interpretation.
all i am saying is that it could just be a misinterpretation or something that changed in translation.

either way...who cares. does the resting place (or lack thereof) really have that much of an importance on his teachings?
take literally what is meant to be taken literally. e.g. declarative statements.
whereas parables and similes illustrate a truth but are not literal statements.

As to whether the resting place (or lack thereof) mattter. It has already been said here, "No resurrection = no christianity. It is foundational"

Hatfield

2/26/2007, 05:31 PM

mdklatt

2/26/2007, 05:52 PM

take literally what is meant to be taken literally. e.g. declarative statements.
whereas parables and similes illustrate a truth but are not literal statements.

Is Genesis a parable?

jacru

2/26/2007, 05:54 PM

and again maybe they were talking about a spiritual ascention....who knows.

you don't; i don't; and therein lies the need for faith.

however, does a spiritual ascent instead of a corporal one make christ any less of a figure to you....and if so why?
If there was no physical resurrection, Jesus is a liar and the Bible is falsehood.
I, therefore have no credible basis for my faith.

You are right about the need for faith.
Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please Him(God), for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Hamhock

2/26/2007, 05:57 PM

Is Genesis a parable?

I'll bite.

jacru

2/26/2007, 06:01 PM

You believe or you don't.

Some People They Never Believe
by David Meece

Moses led the children out of Pharaoh's hand
Across the Red Sea like God had planned
Well, you'd think that when He opened up that mighty sea
That all the people would surely believe

But you can heal the sick
Raise the dead
Turn the sky from a blue to a red
It don't matter what they hear or what they see
Some people they never believe

Noah was the only man on earth that was good
So God said, "Build an ark of resinous wood."
Well, a lot of people laughed and called him a fool
But Noah didn't mind 'cause he knew for sure

That you can heal the sick
Raise the dead
Turn the sky from a blue to a red
It don't matter what they hear or what they see
Some people they never believe

Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego
Were told that in the fireplace they must go
Well, you'd think that when the people saw
they just wouldn't burn
That all the doubters would finally learn

Jesus came to earth to save all men
To take upon Himself a world of sin
But the people didn't care what He said or He did
They only knew that they wanted Him dead

Though He healed the sick
Yes, He raised the dead
Though He could turn the sky from a blue to red
It didn't matter what they'd heard or what they'd seen
Some people refused to believe

A lot of people now are dying in sin
Waiting for a miracle to prove to them
But though miracles keep happening again and again
They still don't believe and they never will

'Cause you can heal the sick
Raise the dead
Turn the sky from a blue to red
It don't matter what they hear or what they see
Some people they never believe.

Gospel of Luke 16:31-
"But he said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Widescreen

2/26/2007, 06:12 PM

and again maybe they were talking about a spiritual ascention....who knows.
It depends on if you believe the Bible or not. The passage states they watched him physically go up into the clouds. If it was just His spirit, His body would be dead and there's no indication in the text that He was talking to His followers and then dropped dead in front of them. The only interpretation that makes sense is that he physically went up into the sky.

however, does a spiritual ascent instead of a corporal one make christ any less of a figure to you....and if so why?
Good question. The ascension is not the same thing as the resurrection, which is what Cameron is trying to debunk. If the resurrection didn't occur, there is no Christianity. The ascension is different. Other than the question of "if he didn't ascend, where did he go?", the main issue regarding the ascension is that if it didn't happen, the Bible's wrong. If the Bible's wrong what else is the Bible wrong about?

Scott D

2/26/2007, 06:20 PM

It depends on if you believe the Bible or not. The passage states they watched him physically go up into the clouds. If it was just His spirit, His body would be dead and there's no indication in the text that He was talking to His followers and then dropped dead in front of them. The only interpretation that makes sense is that he physically went up into the sky.

Good question. The ascension is not the same thing as the resurrection, which is what Cameron is trying to debunk. If the resurrection didn't occur, there is no Christianity. The ascension is different. Other than the question of "if he didn't ascend, where did he go?", the main issue regarding the ascension is that if it didn't happen, the Bible's wrong. If the Bible's wrong what else is the Bible wrong about?

pork?

mdklatt

2/26/2007, 06:30 PM

If the Bible's wrong what else is the Bible wrong about?

Humans and dinosaurs coexisting?

The story of Noah?

Jonah living in a fish?

jdsooner

2/26/2007, 06:55 PM

If Cameron is not careful, Jesus is going to send him somewhere worse than the Titanic!

jacru

2/26/2007, 06:57 PM

Just exactly what scriptural passages are you questioning?
Or are you just questioning what you've HEARD about the Bible?

jdsooner

2/26/2007, 07:09 PM

This is a remake of an old story.

In 1996, when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television.

"They just want to get money for it," Kloner said.

Cameron said his critics should withhold comment until they see his film.

"I'm not a theologist. I'm not an archaeologist. I'm a documentary film maker," he said.

The film's claims, however, have raised the ire of Christian leaders in the Holy Land.

"The historical, religious and archaeological evidence show that the place where Christ was buried is the Church of the Resurrection," said Attallah Hana, a Greek Orthodox clergyman in Jerusalem. The documentary, he said, "contradicts the religious principles and the historic and spiritual principles that we hold tightly to."

Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem who was interviewed in the documentary, said the film's hypothesis holds little weight.

"I don't think that Christians are going to buy into this," Pfann said. "But skeptics, in general, would like to see something that pokes holes into the story that so many people hold dear."

"How possible is it?" Pfann said. "On a scale of one through 10 — 10 being completely possible — it's probably a one, maybe a one and a half."

Pfann is even unsure that the name "Jesus" on the caskets was read correctly. He thinks it's more likely the name "Hanun." Ancient Semitic script is notoriously difficult to decipher.

Kloner also said the filmmakers' assertions are false.

"It was an ordinary middle-class Jerusalem burial cave," Kloner said. "The names on the caskets are the most common names found among Jews at the time."

Archaeologists also balk at the filmmaker's claim that the James Ossuary — the center of a famous antiquities fraud in Israel — might have originated from the same cave. In 2005, Israel charged five suspects with forgery in connection with the infamous bone box.

"I don't think the James Ossuary came from the same cave," said Dan Bahat, an archaeologist at Bar-Ilan University. "If it were found there, the man who made the forgery would have taken something better. He would have taken Jesus."

Skysooner

2/26/2007, 07:11 PM

Let's be realistic here. We are going off of a Bible that has been translated a number of times. There are many things that don't translate from Spanish to English properly and yet we are placing all sorts of belief in the perfect translations through multiple languages several thousand years ago. Almost none of the different versions totally agree.

I'm one that believes in a spiritual resurrection and not a physical one. Why would Jesus be a liar if it was not a physical resurrection? You are talking about taking literally a rendition of his life that was written down anywhere from 40 to 70 years after his death. Don't you think that stories would change in that time? It comes down to whether you believe in the literalness and infallability of the Bible, and I do not as there are any number of instances where stories just don't match (even when it is the same time and same story told in different ways). The resurrection is no different. The different stories in the main 4 gospels don't even agree on the circumstances.

Finally, much of the idea of a physical resurrection and someone (something) having to die for our sins comes out of the Jewish tradition of the perfect lamb that was slaughtered once a year in the Temple to take away the sins of the Jewish people for another year. Jesus was thus the ultimate sacrifice. Frankly I find the idea of a God requiring a sacrifice to forgive me for something that my ancestors did reprehensible. It is just not for me. This is in no way a slap at the way you worship. There is enough room and uncertainty in the world for people to worship and to find God in their own ways. I don't know if I am right, but it is the right way for me. I believe in evolution (consequently no original sin). I believe that there are multiple valid prophets (Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Moses). This is why I believe in the life of Jesus Christ and the service to others.

I was talking with a guy that goes to my church the other day about how he ended up here (UCC). His dad got cancer when he was about 15 years old. His pastor said it was demons inhabiting his body. That was it for him.

OklahomaTuba

2/26/2007, 07:43 PM

I just cannot believe that even 12 people would give their lives for something if they didn't see it happen, and all 12 did.

I believe it happened as the Gospels and the Roman Record says is does.

Frozen Sooner

2/26/2007, 07:54 PM

I just cannot believe that even 12 people would give their lives for something if they didn't see it happen, and all 12 did.

Really?

'Cause there's millions of people throughout history who have all died for things they haven't seen happen.

OklahomaTuba

2/26/2007, 08:06 PM

Really?

'Cause there's millions of people throughout history who have all died for things they haven't seen happen.

Sorry, I didn't mean just dying for it. I also meant spending the rest of their lives spreading the gospel as well, risking their lives and all eventually dying. Some in some pretty hidious manners.

sitzpinkler

2/26/2007, 08:14 PM

I just cannot believe that even 12 people would give their lives for something if they didn't see it happen, and all 12 did.

I believe it happened as the Gospels and the Roman Record says is does.

wait, what Roman record?

Frozen Sooner

2/26/2007, 08:36 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean just dying for it. I also meant spending the rest of their lives spreading the gospel as well, risking their lives and all eventually dying. Some in some pretty hidious manners.

Is Christianity the only faith that has produced martyrs?

Ike

2/26/2007, 08:48 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean just dying for it. I also meant spending the rest of their lives spreading the gospel as well, risking their lives and all eventually dying. Some in some pretty hidious manners.

The same can be said of the actions of many followers of various cults over the years.

Scott D

2/26/2007, 09:15 PM

this whole scenario reminds me of a scenario where a marketing guy set up an elaborate scheme involving a Turkish delegation searching for a missing princess. It got eaten up even well after the fact it was revealed to be a huge marketing ploy for a movie.

Widescreen

2/26/2007, 09:15 PM

Frankly I find the idea of a God requiring a sacrifice to forgive me for something that my ancestors did reprehensible.
Don't know where you got that idea. If you've sinned, you need Jesus' sacrifice.

There is enough room and uncertainty in the world for people to worship and to find God in their own ways.
Seems to me that if we offend God, He gets to decide how we are to be reconciled to Him. We're not in a position to tell God how we're going to do it.

I was talking with a guy that goes to my church the other day about how he ended up here (UCC). His dad got cancer when he was about 15 years old. His pastor said it was demons inhabiting his body. That was it for him.
UCC. That explains a lot about what you're saying.

By the way, your friend's story sounds a lot like what happened to my great grandfather. I descend from a long line of Irish Catholics. My GGF married a protestant woman and so after they had kids, his priest told him all his kids were bastards. He threw the priest out of his home and left the catholic church. To this day, we're the only branch of our entire family that's protestant.

Widescreen

2/26/2007, 09:16 PM

Humans and dinosaurs coexisting?

The story of Noah?

Jonah living in a fish?
No.

Scott D

2/26/2007, 10:02 PM

Don't know where you got that idea. If you've sinned, you need Jesus' sacrifice.

Seems to me that if we offend God, He gets to decide how we are to be reconciled to Him. We're not in a position to tell God how we're going to do it.

UCC. That explains a lot about what you're saying.

By the way, your friend's story sounds a lot like what happened to my great grandfather. I descend from a long line of Irish Catholics. My GGF married a protestant woman and so after they had kids, his priest told him all his kids were bastards. He threw the priest out of his home and left the catholic church. To this day, we're the only branch of our entire family that's protestant.

so now that makes you an irresponsible bastard :D

Widescreen

2/26/2007, 10:08 PM

No, that would've been my grandfather who was the bastard. I'm just irresponsible. Don't label me. :mad:

Boarder

2/26/2007, 10:10 PM

What's UCC?

Widescreen

2/26/2007, 10:10 PM

http://www.ucc.org

Scott D

2/26/2007, 10:11 PM

No, that would've been my grandfather who was the bastard. I'm just irresponsible. Don't label me. :mad:

you are the bastard of a bastard's bastard...and irresponsible :D

Boarder

2/26/2007, 10:12 PM

United Church Of Christ? OK. Didn't know.

Skysooner

2/26/2007, 10:36 PM

Don't know where you got that idea. If you've sinned, you need Jesus' sacrifice.

I just don't buy into the whole notion that we are condemned before we ever start. In one of the versions of the 10 Commandments (there are 3 btw), there is talk about how God is a jealous God and will punish unto the 4th and 5th generations for the sins of the fathers. This is left out on the Reader's Digest version of the 10 Commandments. If I believe in evolution, Adam and Eve becomes just a nice little story that the Jewish writers in the early days put down to explain where we come from. The Jesus gospels (excluding John) were written for a Jewish audience primarily. They would have understood the redemption via a sacrifice idea as portrayed. However, if I don't believe in original sin, I don't believe that God needs to forgive me through a sacrifice of another sentient being. I spent my childhood listening to preachers talk about how 35-40% of the world's population was going to hell just because they couldn't be exposed to the teachings of Jesus. If God (as defined by that explanation) is so powerless, then it isn't a God I would ever worship.

Again, I'm not condemning other ways of thought. I have found what makes sense to me, and I'm able to live with it. It sure has made me a better person and much more willing to help others.

jacru

2/26/2007, 11:09 PM

Gospel of John
chapter 3
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

chapter 14
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Book of Acts
chapter 4
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Hatfield

2/26/2007, 11:41 PM

widescreen, i don't think (and I think even cameron and the forces behind the show) have said they are trying to debunk the resurrection.

and again i think it is important to point out that the resurrection and the ascent are 2 separate acts.

Hatfield

2/26/2007, 11:43 PM

has anyone read "Ishmal" and/or "The Story of B" by Daniel Quinn?

interesting reads.

TopDawg

2/27/2007, 12:10 AM

The show's worthless with out Leo and Kate. Just sayin... ;)

I'm the king of the afterworld!

OklahomaTuba

2/27/2007, 01:04 AM

The same can be said of the actions of many followers of various cults over the years.

I doubt many cult followers have first and second person sourcing and historical evidence to back up the events surrounding what Jesus went through.

Or even had to face the wrath of the mighty Roman empire for centuries.

OklahomaTuba

2/27/2007, 01:08 AM

wait, what Roman record?
The History of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus.

About this time lived Jesus, a man full of wisdom, if indeed one may call Him a man. For He was the doer of incredible things, and the teacher of such as gladly received the truth. He thus attracted to Himself many Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. On the accusation of the leading men of our people, Pilate condemned Him to death upon the cross; nevertheless those who had previously loved Him still remained faithful to Him. For on the third day He again appeared to them living, just as, in addition to a thousand other marvellous things, prophets sent by God had foretold. And to the present day the race of those who call themselves Christians after Him has not ceased.

TopDawg

2/27/2007, 01:22 AM

I just cannot believe that even 12 people would give their lives for something if they didn't see it happen, and all 12 did.

I doubt many cult followers have first and second person sourcing and historical evidence to back up the events surrounding what Jesus went through.

Or even had to face the wrath of the mighty Roman empire for centuries.

I'm confused about your message. Because it seems like in quote #1 you're saying that it's hard for you to believe that people would give their lives for something they didn't see, and then in quote #2 it seems like you say that many other people have given their lives for things they didn't see.

Are you just saying that cult followers have been witnesses to much less "convincing" events than the ones Jesus' disciples witnessed?

Hot Rod

2/27/2007, 09:20 AM

James Cameron is just looking for publicity. The funny thing is you'd think archeologists would've "found" this by now instead of this movie director...if it were true, but it isn't.

TUSooner

2/27/2007, 09:26 AM

Really?

'Cause there's millions of people throughout history who have all died for things they haven't seen happen.

I think Tuba's point is this:

Many people have died for a lie, but they believed the lie and did not know it was a lie. But those who were condemned, or who risked their lives or devoted their lives, because they actually saw the resurrected Jesus, would know if that were a lie. So people might often die for a "mistaken belief", but not so much for what they KNOW is a lie. Or something.

Chuck Bao

2/27/2007, 09:38 AM

The History of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus.

This is widely disputed now. I think you forgot to mention that part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 09:42 AM

Widescreen

2/27/2007, 09:55 AM

you know this was found in 1980 right?
Right. I think his point is that if this had any validity, it would be trumpeted as one of the greatest archaeological discoveries of all time. Instead it takes a filmmaker to come along and do a PT Barnum act to bring attention to it.

landrun

2/27/2007, 09:56 AM

James Cameron is just looking for publicity. The funny thing is you'd think archeologists would've "found" this by now instead of this movie director...if it were true, but it isn't.

Exactly. Yet you have people on this forum now questioning the 'interpretation' of scripture because of a MOVIE MAKER. :rolleyes:

In spite of the fact that this finding was discovered almost 30 years ago and archaeologists knew then (and have restated now) that there is nothing substantial about this finding and that the MOVIE MAKER is 'dishonest' when insinuating that they have 'found Jesus', you still have people asking about the validity of Christianity. - Mission accomplished before the latest documentary is even shown on tv. :confused:

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 10:13 AM

Exactly. Yet you have people on this forum now questioning the 'interpretation' of scripture because of a MOVIE MAKER. :rolleyes:

In spite of the fact that this finding was discovered almost 30 years ago and archaeologists knew then (and have restated now) that there is nothing substantial about this finding and that the MOVIE MAKER is 'dishonest' when insinuating that they have 'found Jesus', you still have people asking about the validity of Christianity. - Mission accomplished before the latest documentary is even shown on tv. :confused:

my posts have nothing to do with basing interpretations or questioning due to a movie maker.

i will watch it (which is more than those criticizing the doc. have done) and see what it has to say on both sides of the issue.

Hot Rod

2/27/2007, 10:46 AM

Right. I think his point is that if this had any validity, it would be trumpeted as one of the greatest archaeological discoveries of all time. Instead it takes a filmmaker to come along and do a PT Barnum act to bring attention to it.

Yes that is my point. I'm sorry I didn't make it more clearer.

Landrun makes a good point. However, this move on Cameron's part hasn't shaken my foundation a bit.

Widescreen, "tell us we will die like dogs!"

landrun

2/27/2007, 10:49 AM

my posts have nothing to do with basing interpretations or questioning due to a movie maker.

i will watch it (which is more than those criticizing the doc. have done) and see what it has to say on both sides of the issue.

btw, the problem according to reports about his movie is that you won't see both sides of the issue. Just a dishonest, distorted explanation about the 30 year old discovery.

I will watch it too. But what he says on the issue is sort of irrelevant when he says himself he's not an archaeologist and you have archaeologists who have already seen his movie say that he is being 'dishonest'. Along with the fact that this has been considered and irrelevant discovery for almost 30 years. Now, suddenly it means something and may even be 'earth shattering' because an award winning movie maker wants to make a movie about it.

The issue is that in spite of however dishonest he is or what half truths he presents, if his movie making abilities and the 'presentation' wow you enough then you'll have people believe anything he tells them, regardless of what the experts say. :rolleyes:

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 10:54 AM

The History of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus.

oh, I thought you meant something worth a crap

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 10:54 AM

again a lot of people speaking out against the movie haven't seen the movie.

everybody has bias and agenda....even the experts who need this to not be the tomb of christ.

to me i don't consider the tomb, if it is his tomb, the ruination of christianity...as it just means some time after the resurrection his body died and he ascended to heaven. which in no way would make him a liar just that either the translation was a little hooey or it is just something that is to be interpreted....similar to how jonah didn't live in the belly of no stinking whale.

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 10:59 AM

This is widely disputed now. I think you forgot to mention that part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

not to mention what he wrote could hardly be considered Roman record

I thought Tuba meant Roman record as in recorded by and for the Roman authorities

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 11:01 AM

similar to how jonah didn't live in the belly of no stinking whale.

he didn't?

Widescreen

2/27/2007, 11:05 AM

I'm going to watch it. Ironically, I thought their "The Exodus Decoded" documentary was very good - mainly because I agreed with their assertions. Here, not so much.

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 11:14 AM

hamhock,

it was more of a co-op than a firm living situation*

(you really believe he did live in the belly of a whale??)

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 11:17 AM

hamhock,

it was more of a co-op than a firm living situation*

(you really believe he did live in the belly of a whale??)

yes. you don't?

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 11:22 AM

no.

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 11:25 AM

no.

so, I'm wrong and you're right?

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 11:32 AM

i made no assertions on the veracity/validity of your beliefs, merely stated that I don't think he did.

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 11:35 AM

i made no assertions on the veracity/validity of your beliefs, merely stated that I don't think he did.

similar to how jonah didn't live in the belly of no stinking whale.

uhm, ok.

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 11:39 AM

uhm, ok.

(oh did you think you proved something?)

a truer statement, would be yes.

I think you are wrong, but don't know that you are....thusly that doesn't in and of itself make you wrong or me right.

which means i gave a correct answer to your question.

landrun

2/27/2007, 11:43 AM

i made no assertions on the veracity/validity of your beliefs, merely stated that I don't think he did.

:rolleyes: Of course you did. Man up and quit being such a politically correct weenie.
Its a yes/no question. If you say no and he says yes, you obviously think he's wrong. Or are we to believe you think you're wrong? :rolleyes:

Fugue

2/27/2007, 11:44 AM

http://4fxearth.net/phpBB2/smilies_mod/upload/1beb8b2ae6d61633f35d740313c6c610.gif

:texan:

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 11:45 AM

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 11:47 AM

good thing i have a tolerance to iocane powder

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 11:50 AM

Is Genesis a parable?

I bit and nothing?

Is this like the tons of tax loopholes for the rich?

picasso

2/27/2007, 11:50 AM

my carbon footprint is 327.

@#tches.

Boarder

2/27/2007, 11:52 AM

You step in carbon or something?

picasso

2/27/2007, 12:02 PM

You step in carbon or something?
I meant to put that in the Al Gore thread.

it's all the same I guess.:D

Ike

2/27/2007, 02:12 PM

I think Tuba's point is this:

Many people have died for a lie, but they believed the lie and did not know it was a lie. But those who were condemned, or who risked their lives or devoted their lives, because they actually saw the resurrected Jesus, would know if that were a lie. So people might often die for a "mistaken belief", but not so much for what they KNOW is a lie. Or something.

OK...But there are two tricky things here: a) from the outside looking in, it is impossible to differentiate between those who have died for a lie that they did not know was a lie, and those who died for something that wasn't a lie. Neither you, me, Tuba, or anyone else alive today can make an accurate estimation that the disciples were right and all followers of cults throughout history that have died for their beliefs were wrong. Because we can't see what they saw.
b) Is it impossible for followers of cults to see something that might be termed a "miracle", (or several) in other settings to strengthen or create their belief in their cult of choice? I submit that it is not impossible, and that at the very least, many cult followers are convinced that they have seen some miracle or another. Just as there are many people who are convinced that they have seen aliens, ghosts, and sasquatches. How does a rational person decide which miracles really happened and which ones didn't?

FaninAma

2/27/2007, 02:13 PM

I think this is just another unhappy atheist/humanist who is unhappy with his own belief sytem and wants to put as much doubt in the minds of people who do believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God because he(Cameron) can't stand the fact that there is a large group of people who believe there is a higher authority than man, who seem happy that there is a higher purpose in their lives and welcome the fact that higher, non-fluctuating principles guide their lives.

I personally have had my doubts that God exists but if there is no God what is the purpose of life? If there is no higher being to give human beings rights, purpose and hope then this world is nothing but a sh*t hole and what's deemed right is whatever the hell the people with power and the money say is right and it is up to them to determine what freedoms and rights other humans should have.

Personally I think there's something to this Jesus and God thing. Those of you who don't believe can just keep on living a life without purpose and try adjusting to a set of humanistic values that is constantly shifting.

Now, did that statement violate the political correctness sensitivities of the board?

Fugue

2/27/2007, 02:15 PM

:pop:

Scott D

2/27/2007, 02:38 PM

the important thing discovered in this thread is that Widescreen comes from a long line of bastards...his being irresponsible is his own personal twist on bastardness. :D

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 02:57 PM

I think this is just another unhappy atheist/humanist who is unhappy with his own belief sytem and wants to put as much doubt in the minds of people who do believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God because he(Cameron) can't stand the fact that there is a large group of people who believe there is a higher authority than man, who seem happy that there is a higher purpose in their lives and welcome the fact that higher, non-fluctuating principles guide their lives.

I personally have my doubts that God exists but if there is no God what is the purpose of life? If there is no higher being to give human beings rights, purpose and hope then this world is nothing but a sh*t hole and what's deemed right is whatever the hell the people with power and the money say is right and it is up to them to determine what freedoms and rights other humans should have.

Personally I think there's something to this Jesus and God thing. Those of you who don't believe can just keep on living a life without purpose and try adjusting to a set of humanistic values that is constantly shifting.

Now, did that statement violate the political correctness sensitivities of the board?

no.

but according to your own feelings, then you are going to hell.

sorry about your luck.

;)

and the bolded part makes little sense...as it is a bit contradictory as in you claim to not think he/she exists and then seem to lump yourself in with the true believers

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 03:34 PM

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 03:37 PM

try again and this time make more sense

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 03:42 PM

why should i buck the trend?

imjebus

2/27/2007, 03:47 PM

FaninAma

2/27/2007, 04:21 PM

It's funny because I feel like I have more reason or purpose to my life now then I did when I believed god to be real. Just because people don't believe in a higher power does not mean that their existence is empty. It is actually quite full with making the best out of this life because I believe it is all we have. Just my humble opinion.

I felt like you did for most of my life. I now recognize that the more I felt like I was in control and that I was in charge of making my life purposeful the emptier my life was.

Living for the day is a hollow lifestyle. Making you life's epicenter out of money, career, entertainment or even personal relationships is fleeting and not purposeful.

Again, without God there is no definitive right or wrong. There is no grace. There is no forgiveness. There is no compassion. Without God all we are left with is a set of ever changing human values.

Faith was a very difficult concept for me to grasp. My background requires evidence in black and white. I need the double-blinded placebo controlled study before I believe anything. Faith is just something you have to arrive at on your own based on your life's experience.

I will never criticize another's lifestyle because I know you can't argue or talk another person into a life based on faith. It's something they have to achieve in their own good time.

FaninAma

2/27/2007, 04:34 PM

no.

but according to your own feelings, then you are going to hell.

sorry about your luck.

;)

and the bolded part makes little sense...as it is a bit contradictory as in you claim to not think he/she exists and then seem to lump yourself in with the true believers

I'm still trying to figure out the whole heaven and hell thing. Right now just buying the whole concept of faith and admitting I can't control the uncontrollable is a quantum leap in my personal philosophy.

*Ed: And I see the source of your confusion. I went back and edited. I have no qualms about admitting that this is an ongoing process that has taken years if not decades to arrive at the point I am at now. And I know I'm far, far awy from where I need to be in terms of absolute faith. But I have started the journey.

sanantoniosooner

2/27/2007, 04:59 PM

I don't have time to read this whole thing.

Is it OK for me to still believe in Jesus?

yermom

2/27/2007, 05:02 PM

no, sorry

;)

sanantoniosooner

2/27/2007, 05:02 PM

crap.

imjebus

2/27/2007, 05:10 PM

I felt like you did for most of my life. I now recognize that the more I felt like I was in control and that I was in charge of making my life purposeful the emptier my life was.

Living for the day is a hollow lifestyle. Making you life's epicenter out of money, career, entertainment or even personal relationships is fleeting and not purposeful.

Again, without God there is no definitive right or wrong. There is no grace. There is no forgiveness. There is no compassion. Without God all we are left with is a set of ever changing human values.

Faith was a very difficult concept for me to grasp. My background requires evidence in black and white. I need the double-blinded placebo controlled study before I believe anything. Faith is just something you have to arrive at on your own based on your life's experience.

I will never criticize another's lifestyle because I know you can't argue or talk another person into a life based on faith. It's something they have to achieve in their own good time.

I disagree, without god there is still right and wrong. Religion is how the majority of us were taught right and wrong. But that doesn't mean it is the only measurement of morals. I do not have god but I do have forgiveness, compassion....etc. I work hard everyday to be the person I believe I should be. I don't have a changing set of values they stay the same 24/7.

jk the sooner fan

2/27/2007, 05:18 PM

I will never criticize another's lifestyle

so joining a fraternity is now ok with you?

Xstnlsooner

2/27/2007, 05:19 PM

Wasn't it Marx who said that if there is no god, EVERYTHING is permissible??

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 05:20 PM

if you do the "right" thing out of fear that god will punish you for doing the "wrong" thing...are you really doing the "right" thing

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 05:23 PM

if you do the "right" thing out of fear that god will punish you for doing the "wrong" thing...are you really doing the "right" thing

i can agree with this.

Doing the right thing out of fear of punishment is the wrong motive.

Widescreen

2/27/2007, 05:29 PM

the important thing discovered in this thread is that Widescreen comes from a long line of bastards...his being irresponsible is his own personal twist on bastardness. :D
:pop:

Oh wait, that was directed at me.

:mad:

Widescreen

2/27/2007, 05:33 PM

if you do the "right" thing out of fear that god will punish you for doing the "wrong" thing...are you really doing the "right" thing
This is precisely why Christianity (specifically evangelical) is so different from other world religions. Christianity is the only religion where doing the right thing is (or is at least supposed to be) a love response to God - it's not in an attempt to gain something or forestall wrath. That's not to say that non Christians don't do good works. But from a religion perspective, the motivations are very different between Christianity and all other religions.

jk the sooner fan

2/27/2007, 05:34 PM

what i find interesting is the number of people world wide who claim to be non believers and claim to think believing in christ is just a waste of time, yet they spend even more time continuing to try and prove what they dont believe in

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 05:36 PM

jacru

2/27/2007, 05:37 PM

Good works glorifies God.

Matthew 5:16 - Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 05:43 PM

Good works glorifies God.

Matthew 5:16 - Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

No offense, and this is not a shot at Christians or Christianity, but you may as well be quoting Mother Goose or The Three Little Pigs. To those who aren't Christians, that stuff is meaningless.

I'm not saying don't post it, I'm just saying if your intent is persuade the non-theists, that's not going to do the trick.

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 05:43 PM

How is the threat of hell not supposed to generate fear?

it may generate fear, but fear is an insufficient motivator when one is naturally inclined to behave in the opposite manner. good works (doing right) is/should be motivated by a desire to please a holy Creator.

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 05:46 PM

:rolleyes: Of course you did. Man up and quit being such a politically correct weenie.
Its a yes/no question. If you say no and he says yes, you obviously think he's wrong. Or are we to believe you think you're wrong? :rolleyes:

You should read the post right above yours. Hatfield clearly states he believes Hamhock is wrong.

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 05:48 PM

it may generate fear, but fear is an insufficient motivator when one is naturally inclined to behave in the opposite manner. good works (doing right) is/should be motivated by a desire to please a holy Creator.

That's not the general message being put forth by Christianity (especially here in the south). I hear more about fear and hell than anything else.

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 05:50 PM

You should read the post right above yours. Hatfield clearly states he believes Hamhock is wrong.

but only after being called on it, which is what landrun is referring to.

Hamhock

2/27/2007, 05:51 PM

That's not the general message being put forth by Christianity (especially here in the south). I hear more about fear and hell than anything else.

make no mistake about it, "Christianity" is Christianity's biggest problem.

Boarder

2/27/2007, 05:51 PM

No offense, and this is not a shot at Christians or Christianity, but you may as well be quoting Mother Goose or The Three Little Pigs. To those who aren't Christians, that stuff is meaningless.

I'm not saying don't post it, I'm just saying if your intent is persuade the non-theists, that's not going to do the trick.
You seemed to be wondering what a Christian's motivation was to do good works. He was just telling you what part of a Christian's handbook said to do good works to glorify God.

Boarder

2/27/2007, 05:52 PM

I hear more about fear and hell than anything else.

Yes, that's too bad, too.

jacru

2/27/2007, 05:52 PM

No offense, and this is not a shot at Christians or Christianity, but you may as well be quoting Mother Goose or The Three Little Pigs. To those who aren't Christians, that stuff is meaningless.

I'm not saying don't post it, I'm just saying if your intent is persuade the non-theists, that's not going to do the trick.
The word of God is never meaningless even if it is despised and rejected.
Many do care what the bible says, though they may not accept it.

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 05:55 PM

The word of God is never meaningless even if it is despised and rejected.
Many do care what the bible says, though they may not accept it.

Sure, whatever floats your boat.

jacru

2/27/2007, 06:08 PM

God will do what He says He will do. His word isn't wasted.

Jeremiah 1:12 - Then the LORD said to me, "You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it."

Isaiah 55:11 - ...so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 06:51 PM

AN ASTRONOMER used to go out at night to observe the stars. One
evening, as he wandered through the suburbs with his whole
attention fixed on the sky, he fell accidentally into a deep
well. While he lamented and bewailed his sores and bruises, and
cried loudly for help, a neighbor ran to the well, and learning
what had happened said: "Hark ye, old fellow, why, in striving to
pry into what is in heaven, do you not manage to see what is on
earth?' - Aesop, The Astronomer

sanantoniosooner

2/27/2007, 07:05 PM

sitzpinkler

2/27/2007, 07:12 PM

One time my uncle was walking at the river walk down here and was watching his step only to have a bird crap on his head.-sanantoniosooner, The Poster

The Astronomer is the name of the fable, silly. :D

sanantoniosooner

2/27/2007, 07:14 PM

"Poster" is my occupation.

Pays well too.

landrun

2/27/2007, 07:36 PM

You should read the post right above yours. Hatfield clearly states he believes Hamhock is wrong.

He was posting at the same time I was and his went through first.

When I started that post, Hatfield's post wasn't there.

Hatfield is still a weenie though. :D

Hatfield

2/27/2007, 08:00 PM

but only after being called on it, which is what landrun is referring to.

not accurate.

i was in the process of editing in a complete answer when i was "called out"

and as far as a weenie thing...yeah that is actually pretty accurate

Widescreen

2/27/2007, 08:25 PM

How is the threat of hell not supposed to generate fear?
For the non-Christian, it should. But that has nothing to do with Christians doing good works. Christians have no fear of hell.

Stoop Dawg

2/27/2007, 08:44 PM

I'm the king of the afterworld!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TopDawg again.

Stoop Dawg

2/27/2007, 08:56 PM

def_lazer_fc

2/27/2007, 09:35 PM

i dont feel the need to believe in god to give purpose to my life. i have plenty of purpose on my own. to those of you who do need something greater to believe in, great. to those who don't, great.

sanantoniosooner

2/27/2007, 09:41 PM

i dont feel the need to believe in god to give purpose to my life. i have plenty of purpose on my own. to those of you who do need something greater to believe in, great. to those who don't, great.
great.

jacru

2/27/2007, 11:24 PM

The great physician says, "you have a malignant cancer but I can heal you."
Some say, "thank you. Please heal me." and he does.
Others say, "I don't believe I have cancer, dont bother." and he doesn't.
There is truth and what you believe doesn't change it.

Stoop Dawg

2/27/2007, 11:45 PM

jacru

2/27/2007, 11:47 PM

As always, the parable is full of false assumptions. Good try, though.
Please be good enough to point them out.

Stoop Dawg

2/27/2007, 11:54 PM

For starters, it presupposes that there is a "great physician".

Second, it supposes that this "great physician" (if he/she exists) can not only diagnose cancer with 100% accuracy, but also cure it!

Third, it assumes that everyone has cancer! EVERYONE!

Fourth, it doesn't address the fact that everyone dies anyway. Die of cancer, die in a traffic accident, die from having too much sex, what does it matter? You still die, so what's the big deal about choosing to skip the chemo?

Now, what was the point of the parable again? Oh yeah, it doesn't matter what you believe because it doesn't change the truth. Well, on that we agree.

jacru

2/28/2007, 12:19 AM

Biblically (I know. I just lost some of you.:))
1. The Great physician is Jesus Christ.
2. Yes, He is infallible
3. Yes, everyone needs a savior.
4. We will experience a death of this body but for believers life will go on eternally. No chemo instant healing. For unbelievers death will go on eternally.
5. Hey, we agree on something. :D

I'm not out to brow beat anybody. It's a love thing.

Stoop Dawg

2/28/2007, 12:43 AM

Thanks for spelling it out, but I got it the first time.

My point, if I can make it clearly, is that your parable essentially tries to make those who do not believe in Christianity appear to be idiots. I mean, who would refuse an instant, painless cure for cancer? That would be downright stupid.

But the parable only addresses the lack of belief in the context of an assumption that Christianity is a universal truth. That's fine from a Christian's point of view, because a Christian has already conceeded that assumption. But it does nothing for those of us who have not. If I don't believe in Jesus Christ then your parable is rendered meaningless to me. The statement at the end that my belief (or lack thereof) doesn't change the truth, while accurate, also doesn't logically support the parable. I can simply choose to take the statement to mean that your belief in Christianity doesn't make Jesus Christ the savior of the human race.

I'm not really interested in yet another full-blown debate on the merits of Christianity. I just felt compelled to comment on the relatively weak 4 lines of prose that flow off the tongue like honey but sting like .... errrrr .... something that doesn't sting very bad.

jacru

2/28/2007, 06:37 AM

Thanks for spelling it out, but I got it the first time.

...your parable essentially tries to make those who do not believe in Christianity appear to be idiots. I mean, who would refuse an instant, painless cure for cancer? That would be downright stupid.

...I can simply choose to take the statement to mean that your belief in Christianity doesn't make Jesus Christ the savior of the human race.

If you thought the Dr. had credibility, refusal would be stupid. Those refusing the cure think the Dr. is a quack. So, they think it a smart move.

You're right. My belief proves no more than your unbelief. The point is to find the truth as best you can. If it were true you had cancer, you'd need to accept that truth even if you didn't like it.

Chuck Bao

2/28/2007, 08:19 AM

This is precisely why Christianity (specifically evangelical) is so different from other world religions. Christianity is the only religion where doing the right thing is (or is at least supposed to be) a love response to God - it's not in an attempt to gain something or forestall wrath. That's not to say that non Christians don't do good works. But from a religion perspective, the motivations are very different between Christianity and all other religions.

Our good and most merciful god! You’re an authority on world religions?

First of all, I don’t think that’s the case. Love of god is a very basic tenet in almost all modern religions, although god may be interpreted in quite different ways from Christianity. To say that people of other faith are acting only on desire for benefit or forestalling wrath seems to imply that you’ve missed some crucial points about their religious faith.

I’ve yet to meet one Buddhist believer who was speculating on kind works or a donation bumping them up one notch in the next life. Maybe some think that. Who knows?

But, to make that statement, you’d need to see into people’s thoughts and motivations. Okay, I can’t do that either, so we have to look at their actions.

As I travel around the world, I struck by one thing – people are the same whatever their religion and wherever they are. You can quote Bible verses of “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do men light a lamp, and put it under the peck-measure, but on the lamp stand; and it gives light to all who are in the house.”

But, in my opinion there is pretty much uniform kindness and spite everywhere. That is except in places of sectarian violence like Northern Ireland in the 70s, Iraq today or Israel for like forever.

Honestly, I don’t want to challenge anyone’s faith with rhetoric. That’s like reading Bible verses to non-believers. The proof will be in our actions of how much we truly love God.

Widescreen

2/28/2007, 09:10 AM

As I travel around the world, I struck by one thing – people are the same whatever their religion and wherever they are.
:rolleyes:

We all know that people are the same where ever we go
There is good and bad in everyone,
We learn to live, we learn to give
Each other what we need to survive together alive.

You get an A+ for flowery rhetoric.

Stoop Dawg

2/28/2007, 11:11 AM

If you thought the Dr. had credibility, refusal would be stupid. Those refusing the cure think the Dr. is a quack. So, they think it a smart move.

You're right. My belief proves no more than your unbelief. The point is to find the truth as best you can. If it were true you had cancer, you'd need to accept that truth even if you didn't like it.

You've almost got it.

Those refusing the cure (or some of us, anyway) think there may not even be a doctor .... or cancer.

Other than that, we're agreed.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 11:19 AM

You've almost got it.

Those refusing the cure (or some of us, anyway) think there may not even be a doctor .... or cancer.

Other than that, we're agreed.

That's a nasty mole on your arm. ;)

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 11:29 AM

jacru

2/28/2007, 11:35 AM

You've almost got it.

Those refusing the cure (or some of us, anyway) think there may not even be a doctor .... or cancer.

Other than that, we're agreed.
yeah, A Dr. that doesn't exist would have no credibility. :)

jacru

2/28/2007, 11:39 AM

i have a hard time picturing God as a lonely old man, hoping someone is smart enough and chooses Him.
I don't know how lonely He is, but He loved us enough to die that we might be with Him, if we choose.:cool:

yermom

2/28/2007, 11:58 AM

If you thought the Dr. had credibility, refusal would be stupid. Those refusing the cure think the Dr. is a quack. So, they think it a smart move.

You're right. My belief proves no more than your unbelief. The point is to find the truth as best you can. If it were true you had cancer, you'd need to accept that truth even if you didn't like it.

you know, i haven't met the Dr.

all i've met are the people that "know" he exists and try to tell me how great he is, nevermind the fact that i'm not sure if he only exists in their minds

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 12:04 PM

I don't know how lonely He is, but He loved us enough to die that we might be with Him, if we choose.:cool:

Why didn't Esau choose? Romans 9:13

yermom

2/28/2007, 12:10 PM

wait, who died?

Esau predates Jesus by a few years...

FaninAma

2/28/2007, 12:36 PM

Honestly, I don’t want to challenge anyone’s faith with rhetoric. That’s like reading Bible verses to non-believers. The proof will be in our actions of how much we truly love God.

I can appreciate those sentiments. I agree with a previous poster stated that the desire to help others should be motivated by a desire to help others find the grace offered by Christ and not because it fills up a "Get to Heaven" piggy bank.

And you're right....only God knows the motivations of others so I'm not pointing to any other religions as being more guilty of the practice of buying one's way into heaven than other religions. I think it happens in all religions.

And self-rightous do gooders and pontificators of any religion are a huge turnoff and obstacle to helping somebody move closer to God.

def_lazer_fc

2/28/2007, 01:17 PM

I don't know how lonely He is, but He loved us enough to die that we might be with Him, if we choose.:cool:
so essentially, god created us so that we can worship him. is he that hard up for a self esteem boost? that's like me getting a whole bunch of cats so i can feel loved. and yeah, i just compared god to a crazy cat lady.:D

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 01:21 PM

so essentially, god created us so that we can worship him.

yep

OKLA21FAN

2/28/2007, 01:28 PM

so essentially, god created us so that we can worship him. is he that hard up for a self esteem boost? that's like me getting a whole bunch of cats so i can feel loved. and yeah, i just compared god to a crazy cat lady.:D
which leads to the question

just what the heck did god do before those '6 days' in Genesis?

must have been pretty boring.

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 01:30 PM

which leads to the question

just what the heck did god do before those '6 days' in Genesis?

must have been pretty boring.

He used to play a lot of Yahtze.

Widescreen

2/28/2007, 01:31 PM

I'm impressed at the number of 'enlightened' people in this thread. Kudos.

def_lazer_fc

2/28/2007, 01:31 PM

which leads to the question

just what the heck did god do before those '6 days' in Genesis?

must have been pretty boring.

lots of solitaire. which he invented by the way. maybe some knitting too.

def_lazer_fc

2/28/2007, 01:33 PM

I'm impressed at the number of 'enlightened' people in this thread. Kudos.
eh, don't mention it.;)

def_lazer_fc

2/28/2007, 01:34 PM

He used to play a lot of Yahtze.
and he looketh down upon the dice that he hath rolleth. and he sayeth unto thine self, "thou hast rolled a yatzee, and it is good"

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 01:35 PM

wait, who died?

Esau predates Jesus by a few years...

Romans talks about God's sovereign choosing of Isaac over Esau while still in the womb.

the idea that we "choose" God is driving a lot of the problems with today's Christianity. It creates a marketing driven product that cheapens the Gospel and encourages emotional "decisions" which result in people who really aren't changed by their faith.

Widescreen

2/28/2007, 01:36 PM

Romans talks about God's sovereign choosing of Isaac over Esau while still in the womb.
That's the doctrine of predestination. I still struggle with that.

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 01:40 PM

That's the doctrine of predestination. I still struggle with that.

Me too, at times. However, studying the whole scriptures, one cannot avoid the doctrine. It must be dealt with.

That's another problem with today's Christianity. The preaching is a feel-good topical sermon, where the preacher grabs 2 or 3 different verses from different parts of the Bible, from different translations, to make his point. Many of the tougher passages (like those dealing with election) are never addressed and much of the context is lost.

def_lazer_fc

2/28/2007, 01:42 PM

this is kinda off topic, but i always had trouble with the notion of judas as a traitor. i mean, jesus had to be executed for christianity to exist. he had to be given up. so, in a way, wasn't judas just doing god's work. and if so, should he have been villified for what he did?

Scott D

2/28/2007, 01:42 PM

I'm impressed at the number of 'enlightened' people in this thread. Kudos.

well if it's any comfort to you, your being a bastard sure has put a smile on my face :D

C&CDean

2/28/2007, 01:44 PM

Meh. I ain't getting into it with you ****ing heathens. All I know is this: when we're laying there taking our last gasp of atmosphere, some of us are going to have that easy peaceful feeling, some will not. I've experienced enough death in my lifetime to know that those who denounce a God/higher being/etc. go down hard. Those that have the faith die much more peacefully.

So, like everyone is saying, you do your thing and I'll do mine. But come the day, we're all gonna know...

Sooner_Bob

2/28/2007, 01:46 PM

I guess it was about time for another religious debate thread.

sitzpinkler

2/28/2007, 01:49 PM

I've experienced enough death in my lifetime to know that those who denounce a God/higher being/etc. go down hard. Those that have the faith die much more peacefully.

hahaha, that's nonsense

C&CDean

2/28/2007, 01:51 PM

hahaha, that's nonsense

Really? How many people have you watched die?

Widescreen

2/28/2007, 01:53 PM

well if it's any comfort to you, your being a bastard sure has put a smile on my face :D
You're right. That is comforting. Thanks for that.

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 02:03 PM

He used to play a lot of Yahtze.
You callin' Albert Einstein a liar?

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 02:04 PM

You callin' Albert Einstein a liar?

Why? What did Al say God played?

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 02:05 PM

"God does not play dice..."-Albert Einstein.

Xstnlsooner

2/28/2007, 02:07 PM

But come the day, we're all gonna know...

I gotta agree with Dean here. We can argue all we want(and we do)
and think we're all pretty smart(and we do), but like the U2 song,
when we die, we'll all be "one step closer to knowing."(and we ALL will)

OhU1

2/28/2007, 02:07 PM

Only a fool would play dice or poker with God. It's not that God does not want to play.

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 02:09 PM

Only a fool would play dice or poker with God. It's not that God does not want to play.

"How does this guy ALWAYS know when I'm bluffing? Are my tells THAT obvious?"

sitzpinkler

2/28/2007, 02:09 PM

Really? How many people have you watched die?

both of my parents (both of massive heart attacks), my sister-in-law(cancer), two step-brothers(one in a fire, the other in a motorcycle accident), both grandmothers (one by cancer, the other by stroke)

all of them were Christians, none of them died peacefully

Scott D

2/28/2007, 02:09 PM

OhU1

2/28/2007, 02:10 PM

I gotta agree with Dean here. We can argue all we want(and we do)
and think we're all pretty smart(and we do), but like the U2 song,
when we die, we'll all be "one step closer to knowing."(and we ALL will)

Or we're gone, the "lights are out", and no one knows anything whatsoever if there is no consciousness after death. No one will be around to report back who was wrong or right.

jk the sooner fan

2/28/2007, 02:12 PM

crawfish

2/28/2007, 02:13 PM

so essentially, god created us so that we can worship him. is he that hard up for a self esteem boost? that's like me getting a whole bunch of cats so i can feel loved. and yeah, i just compared god to a crazy cat lady.:D

I don't think so. I think worship is for us rather than God, to help us keep our minds on the one thing that matters - the ultimate purpose of choosing our way or God. We're here because we're getting a chance to be with God. It's up to us to either accept or reject His grace.

Hamhock, I know we've had these conversations before in PMs so I won't discuss predestination with you again. However, I do take offense that the "choice" matter is what is causing the feelgood form of Christianity to prosper, or that those of us who believe in choice are ignoring bits of scripture. The vast majority of non-Calvinist churches and Christians don't match that assertion.

Xstnlsooner

2/28/2007, 02:13 PM

Or we're gone, the "lights are out", and no one knows anything whatsoever if there is no consciousness after death. No one will be around to report back who was wrong or right.

Really....there goes all that money I paid to the psychic hotline!!
DAMN!!

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 02:19 PM

There's been some really good stuff on here from some of the Christians. Widescreen, in particular, brought up a great point when he talked about how fear of Hell isn't supposed to be the motivation behind faith. It's unfortunate that more don't realize this-I get asked about whether I'm scared of going to Hell all the time when people find out that I'm a nonbeliever. I think the message of Christianity could be spread much more effectively among those who have made a conscious decision to not believe if it were presented more along the lines that faith is the correct action and should be practiced for that reason rather than from the standpoint of what might happen to you if you don't believe.

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 02:24 PM

Oh, and for the record, I'm a humanist and an atheist (the terms are not redundant, though they are generally linked.) I have a code of ethics that I live by. I have a moral system that aligns rather closely to what you get with most major religions, though of course my reasons for adherence to that moral system aren't what those religions think they should be. I don't feel that my life is empty or without meaning at all, and I'm not particularly concerned with what happens after I die, as I've seen no credible proof that my consciousness survives my death. I choose to take action in my life to improve the quality of the life here on Earth, because I don't think there is anything afterwards.

This is not meant to impugn or deride anyone who does have faith. Hier steh ich, ich kann nicht anders. If you feel like you've seen sufficient proof that your consciousness survives your death and that what you do in life effects what happens to you afterwards and that your position in the afterwards can be improved by taking certain actions, then your actions are rational and I don't have any issue with them so long as they don't affect me negatively.

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 02:25 PM

God does not play dice.

I ALREADY QUOTED EINSTEIN!!! :mad: :mad:

JOKE STEALER!

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 02:26 PM

OhU1

2/28/2007, 02:26 PM

The notion that if I believe a particular thing I will have some kind of "peace" or whatever is not real compelling to me IF the belief is not actually true.

Nor does the claim (if true) that those who believe in a higher power die in peace really do much to sway me that the belief is true. I'm kind of hard headed though.

C&CDean

2/28/2007, 02:28 PM

both of my parents (both of massive heart attacks), my sister-in-law(cancer), two step-brothers(one in a fire, the other in a motorcycle accident), both grandmothers (one by cancer, the other by stroke)

all of them were Christians, none of them died peacefully

Try hanging out at a hospice. You know, a place where people absolutely know they ain't coming out alive. Or work geriatrics. Or just talk to someone who does.

I won't comment on your specific relatives and what was going on in their own minds/lives when they checked out.

Ike

2/28/2007, 02:30 PM

"God does not play dice..."-Albert Einstein.

Believe it or not, this was one of those statements that Einstein wound up being wrong about.

He used this statement to express his deep discomfort with quantum mechanics. QM basically says that fundamentally at the smallest scales, there is no more causality...only sets of probabilistic outcomes from a given initial state. Einstein spent a great deal of time showing that QM leads to some very strange effects, which he believed were so counter-intuitive that they should justify the rejection of the theory. However, in later years, those strange effects have been shown to occur exactly the way Einstein said they would.

Scott D

2/28/2007, 02:31 PM

so Ike is saying that Einstein was wrong about the fact that you shouldn't go to Church, because you can find God in some alley playing craps.

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 02:32 PM

Believe it or not, this was one of those statements that Einstein wound up being wrong about.

He used this statement to express his deep discomfort with quantum mechanics. QM basically says that fundamentally at the smallest scales, there is no more causality...only sets of probabilistic outcomes from a given initial state. Einstein spent a great deal of time showing that QM leads to some very strange effects, which he believed were so counter-intuitive that they should justify the rejection of the theory. However, in later years, those strange effects have been shown to occur exactly the way Einstein said they would.

Yeah, I know. ;)

It's also a quote that has been taken out of context over and over to "prove" that Einstein was a theist. He wasn't, and he later explained his comments as meaning, well, what you said they were.

OhU1

2/28/2007, 02:38 PM

Yeah, I know. ;)

It's also a quote that has been taken out of context over and over to "prove" that Einstein was a theist. He wasn't, and he later explained his comments as meaning, well, what you said they were.

Also, the claim that Einstein was a theist falls under the logical fallacy of an "appeal to authority" - basically that if some smart guy believes a claim is true the claim is proven.

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 02:38 PM

However, I do take offense that the "choice" matter is what is causing the feelgood form of Christianity to prosper, or that those of us who believe in choice are ignoring bits of scripture. The vast majority of non-Calvinist churches and Christians don't match that assertion.

I apologize if you feel I've used too broad a brush. However, having been involved in leadership in a "big" church, read countless "how to grow your church" books, and attended many conferences, I stand by my statement.

I disagree with your statement that "the vast majority of non-calvinist churches and Christians don't match" the assertion. I have many armenian friends that I highly respect. I certainly don't mean to imply that all armenian's believe in feelgood Christianity or ignore scripture. Many, many don't. That many, though, in my opinion, don't equate to the vast majority. It is my experience that if you feel man is free to choose, then it makes sense that the presenter would make the message as non-offensive as possible and require as little as possible out of "converts" in order to "win" more souls.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 02:51 PM

I apologize if you feel I've used too broad a brush. However, having been involved in leadership in a "big" church, read countless "how to grow your church" books, and attended many conferences, I stand by my statement.

I disagree with your statement that "the vast majority of non-calvinist churches and Christians don't match" the assertion. I have many armenian friends that I highly respect. I certainly don't mean to imply that all armenian's believe in feelgood Christianity or ignore scripture. Many, many don't. That many, though, in my opinion, don't equate to the vast majority. It is my experience that if you feel man is free to choose, then it makes sense that the presenter would make the message as non-offensive as possible and require as little as possible out of "converts" in order to "win" more souls.

I might agree with you if you said "most large (>1000) churches". Most Christians do not belong to large churches, though. Also, most "brands" of Christianity either outright ignore some scripture or downplay it. This does include the Calvinist brands as well. ;)

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 03:00 PM

I Also, most "brands" of Christianity either outright ignore some scripture or downplay it. This does include the Calvinist brands as well. ;)

i'm fairly new to calvinist teachings. i'd be interested to know what scriptures you feel calvinists ignore. seriously.

C&CDean

2/28/2007, 03:03 PM

i'm fairly new to calvinist teachings. i'd be interested to know what scriptures you feel calvinists ignore. seriously.

To be a calvinist you have to wear an OU helmet with a face shield and go "paper?"

FaninAma

2/28/2007, 03:08 PM

The notion that if I believe a particular thing I will have some kind of "peace" or whatever is not real compelling to me IF the belief is not actually true.

Absolutely correct. Abiding by Christian tenets without a real belief in the origin or purpose of the tenets holds very little benefit for the practioner.

Nor does the claim (if true) that those who believe in a higher power die in peace really do much to sway me that the belief is true. I'm kind of hard headed though.

Look at how Jesus died. I don't think God or Christianity promises a peaceful demise. Faith in Christ doesn't turn you into a non-human machine unable to feel pain or sadness. It will provide comfort and strength during those times and the fact that you are able to realize you can't control or understand all things is what I have found to be the most helpful.

def_lazer_fc

2/28/2007, 03:11 PM

def_lazer_fc

2/28/2007, 03:15 PM

You, sir, apparently have little experience with cats.
you, sir, apparently haven't met The Baroness. and, so what, i named my cat after a gi joe character.

FaninAma

2/28/2007, 03:37 PM

that just makes god seem a little arrogant. that he'd create humans and assume that hanging out with him would be an ulitimate goal. and if we decided we didn't want to hang out with him for eternity (which i don't care who you are, i'd get sick of you after a while), we'd be punished. if it was that important that we believe in him, then why is there no evidence of his existence. and the bible doesn't count. surely, if we risk being tortured in hell forever, he'd at least show himself to you. then you'd have the choice of rejecting him. the fact that i don't believe in god is not to say i reject god. it's just that i don't see him, have never seen him, and have heard of no evidence suggesting otherwise. eternal happiness and eternal torture shouldn't be decided by blind faith. but that's just one man's opinion.

I think that all of those are valid and reasonable arguments. Proof of God's existence will have to be made on other than physical evidence. I know a lot of people never cross that bridge....it's a difficult bridge to cross for those of us who have always demanded absolute physical proof of something before we believe in it. I understand now that the only evidence I willl ever get that God exists is spritual evidence and it has taken me 49 years to grasp that concept.

BTW, it helps to not focus in on the negatives....like the "wrath of God" and the threats of a punintive God. Christianity is really a very positive philosophy if you read the teachings of Christ.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 03:47 PM

that just makes god seem a little arrogant. that he'd create humans and assume that hanging out with him would be an ulitimate goal. and if we decided we didn't want to hang out with him for eternity (which i don't care who you are, i'd get sick of you after a while), we'd be punished. if it was that important that we believe in him, then why is there no evidence of his existence. and the bible doesn't count. surely, if we risk being tortured in hell forever, he'd at least show himself to you. then you'd have the choice of rejecting him. the fact that i don't believe in god is not to say i reject god. it's just that i don't see him, have never seen him, and have heard of no evidence suggesting otherwise. eternal happiness and eternal torture shouldn't be decided by blind faith. but that's just one man's opinion.

I'm sure if I could create an entire universe I'd be a little arrogant, too. ;)

HOWEVER: I don't know WHY we were given the opportunity to make a choice. To say "we can't understand the mind of God" is often seen as a cop-out, but then again, who could possibly comprehend the purposes of a being unbound by time and space? It's more logical for my dog to question why I don't let him poop on the carpet.

"Evidence" is a tricky thing. I don't have any evidence that would be compelling to somebody who didn't have faith. I have evidence that's very compelling to me and to anyone who trusts my faith. Note that I immerse myself in atheist dogma from time to time, and there has never been a question that has arisen that I haven't found an adequate answer to.

The act of not accepting God is rejecting. My understanding is you don't face "eternal torment", per se, but "eternal separation from God". I don't think we can be sure of exactly what that means, but that it's not the desirable state.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 03:49 PM

you, sir, apparently haven't met The Baroness. and, so what, i named my cat after a gi joe character.

You're being fooled. Your cat would kill you if she could figure out how to get those cans open herself...

Scott D

2/28/2007, 03:50 PM

I'm sure if I could create an entire universe I'd be a little arrogant, too. ;)

HOWEVER: I don't know WHY we were given the opportunity to make a choice. To say "we can't understand the mind of God" is often seen as a cop-out, but then again, who could possibly comprehend the purposes of a being unbound by time and space? It's more logical for my dog to question why I don't let him poop on the carpet.

"Evidence" is a tricky thing. I don't have any evidence that would be compelling to somebody who didn't have faith. I have evidence that's very compelling to me and to anyone who trusts my faith. Note that I immerse myself in atheist dogma from time to time, and there has never been a question that has arisen that I haven't found an adequate answer to.

The act of not accepting God is rejecting. My understanding is you don't face "eternal torment", per se, but "eternal separation from God". I don't think we can be sure of exactly what that means, but that it's not the desirable state.

or in your case, eternal boiling in a pot of gumbo.

Fugue

2/28/2007, 03:52 PM

or in your case, eternal boiling in a pot of gumbo.

mmmmmmmm, IN.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 04:04 PM

i'm fairly new to calvinist teachings. i'd be interested to know what scriptures you feel calvinists ignore. seriously.

BTW, I'm not ignoring you. It's been a long time since I've studied the concept of "resistible vs. irresistible grace", but since I came to the conclusion of the former you might assume that I'm referring to that particular scripture. :)

It'd take some time to put together a list. Note that I don't necessarly mean "ignore", but "downplay".

Octavian

2/28/2007, 04:16 PM

Christianity is really a very positive philosophy if you read the teachings of Christ.

heh, yep. Like, the most important part? :D

I'm not sure why so many Christians place so much relevance on biblical aspects which do not pertain to Christ or his message.

Given the origins of the Bible itself, the only part of the Good Book that carries much weight with me are the aspects which deal directly with Jesus and His teachings.

Christianity as a religion, with its emphasis on dogma, and belief and faith over action....dont seem very Christian at all to me.

Oh well, there's always Buddhism ;)

Stoop Dawg

2/28/2007, 04:19 PM

so essentially, god created us so that we can worship him. is he that hard up for a self esteem boost?

You're only scratching the surface. Not only did He create us for "companionship" (which requires free will), but eventually He will destroy the Earth and all humans will be taken to Heaven or sent to Hell.

Which, of course, leaves Him right back where He started - no "companions".

Unless we retain our free will after death. In which case, won't I be able to "accept" God after I die?

The bottom line, I believe, is this: There is no way to reach a belief in Christianity from a purely logical path. You can take Pascal's Wager (like Dean), I suppose, but most Christians will tell you that even that doesn't really work. You can't just be a Christian because it makes you feel good when you die. You can't believe because it's convenient. You must actually have faith.

Christians can be quite adept at backing up their faith with logic, but it's impossible to reach faith via pure logic.

You just gotta believe. Period.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 04:32 PM

The bottom line, I believe, is this: There is no way to reach a belief in Christianity from a purely logical path. You can take Pascal's Wager (like Dean), I suppose, but most Christians will tell you that even that doesn't really work. You can't just be a Christian because it makes you feel good when you die. You can't believe because it's convenient. You must actually have faith.

Christians can be quite adept at backing up their faith with logic, but it's impossible to reach faith via pure logic.

You just gotta believe. Period.

I completely agree with this.

When one comes to God, one does it from a point of faith. There is plenty of evidence to back it up from a standpoint of faith; without faith, though, that evidence is not compelling in and of itself to bring somebody TO faith.

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 04:33 PM

I completely agree with this.

When one comes to God, one does it from a point of faith. There is plenty of evidence to back it up from a standpoint of faith; without faith, though, that evidence is not compelling in and of itself to bring somebody TO faith.

where does faith come from?

C&CDean

2/28/2007, 04:36 PM

You're only scratching the surface. Not only did He create us for "companionship" (which requires free will), but eventually He will destroy the Earth and all humans will be taken to Heaven or sent to Hell.

Which, of course, leaves Him right back where He started - no "companions".

Unless we retain our free will after death. In which case, won't I be able to "accept" God after I die?

The bottom line, I believe, is this: There is no way to reach a belief in Christianity from a purely logical path. You can take Pascal's Wager (like Dean), I suppose, but most Christians will tell you that even that doesn't really work. You can't just be a Christian because it makes you feel good when you die. You can't believe because it's convenient. You must actually have faith.

Christians can be quite adept at backing up their faith with logic, but it's impossible to reach faith via pure logic.

You just gotta believe. Period.

Don't be lumping me up in your diatribe. Just cause I stated folks who believe die better doesn't put me in your little box.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 04:42 PM

where does faith come from?

It comes from seeing God work in your life - or in the lives of others. I was raised in the church and have always had a good amount of bible knowledge. I know I didn't gain true faith until later in life when I felt God working on me and my family, and in the lives of friends.

There was a time when only the thin thread of family was keeping me a believer. I could very well have become agnostic or atheist. God was able to turn my heart around, though, and I haven't looked back since.

Widescreen

2/28/2007, 05:00 PM

Oh, and for the record, I'm a humanist and an atheist
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6712/malachiin5.gif

OUTLANDER!!!!!!!!

Widescreen

2/28/2007, 05:10 PM

I'm not sure why so many Christians place so much relevance on biblical aspects which do not pertain to Christ or his message.

Given the origins of the Bible itself, the only part of the Good Book that carries much weight with me are the aspects which deal directly with Jesus and His teachings.
I'm glad you brought this up.

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
The Word of God is Christ. So for the Christian, Christ effectively inspired the entire Bible - Genesis to Revelation. There is no biblical aspect that does not pertain to Christ (to the Christian).

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 05:21 PM

God was able to turn my heart around,

sounds like the irresistable grace of election to me ;)

FaninAma

2/28/2007, 05:21 PM

heh, yep. Like, the most important part? :D

I'm not sure why so many Christians place so much relevance on biblical aspects which do not pertain to Christ or his message.

Given the origins of the Bible itself, the only part of the Good Book that carries much weight with me are the aspects which deal directly with Jesus and His teachings.

Christianity as a religion, with its emphasis on dogma, and belief and faith over action....dont seem very Christian at all to me.

Oh well, there's always Buddhism ;)

IMO, if you place too much emphasis on the legalistic rituals found in the Old Testament you are making the same mistake the Pharises made.....making ritual more imprtant than faith without extending grace to other human beings. The Pharises sure weren't a forgiving lot.

yermom

2/28/2007, 05:22 PM

The Word of God is Christ. So for the Christian, Christ effectively inspired the entire Bible - Genesis to Revelation. There is no biblical aspect that does not pertain to Christ (to the Christian).

i hope you don't eat pork then :eek:

Scott D

2/28/2007, 05:23 PM

does putting crawfish the poster in gumbo qualify as eating pork?

yermom

2/28/2007, 05:24 PM

i don't think you can eat crawfish either ;)

Sooner_Bob

2/28/2007, 05:24 PM

I don't think so. I think worship is for us rather than God, to help us keep our minds on the one thing that matters - the ultimate purpose of choosing our way or God. We're here because we're getting a chance to be with God. It's up to us to either accept or reject His grace.

Hamhock, I know we've had these conversations before in PMs so I won't discuss predestination with you again. However, I do take offense that the "choice" matter is what is causing the feelgood form of Christianity to prosper, or that those of us who believe in choice are ignoring bits of scripture. The vast majority of non-Calvinist churches and Christians don't match that assertion.

When I think of worship I think of how we praise God and thank Him for all He's blessed us with and that it's more for Him than us. Coming from a similar church background as you do I can say that I've seen way too many folks become too focused on a specific way to worship and get all bent out of shape if something is done "out of place" or if the order of worship gets changed.

So I kinda feel that when we think too much that it is for us or about us is when we have problems in churches.

"Feelgood christianity" is prospering IMO because churches have found that if they sugarcoat the message that more folks will show up and fill the pews. Not really considering that the short term gain in numbers/cash means nothing if these folks lose their faith within a month or two.

Teach the message so that folks can understand it, but don't leave parts out if you're afraid they might get turned off because being a christian isn't as easy as they thought.

FaninAma

2/28/2007, 05:32 PM

Teach the message so that folks can understand it, but don't leave parts out if you're afraid they might get turned off because being a christian isn't as easy as they thought.

Which things, in your opinion, make being a Christian hard? I agree it becomes very hard if you think it's totally up to you to live up to a set of rules and standards that are set really, really high.

You don't earn the grace offered by Christ.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 05:36 PM

sounds like the irresistable grace of election to me ;)

Well...if that was the case why would God need to have turned me around? ;)

Scott D

2/28/2007, 05:37 PM

Well...if that was the case why would God need to have turned me around? ;)

because his cooking pot was behind you :D

Sooner_Bob

2/28/2007, 05:39 PM

Which things, in your opinion, make being a Christian hard?

Depending on what part of the world you live in being killed for your faith comes to mind.

Things like not conforming to the world around you and caving in to the opinions/wishes of others. Living a life of honesty and respect and not reverting back to our old habits. Helping others less fortunate. Being a good witness for Christ. It's not all fun and games.

I agree it becomes very hard if you think it's totally up to you to live up to a set of rules and standards that are set really, really high.

You don't earn the grace offered by Christ.

I don't think for a second that I can earn anything. To the contrary, I don't think that I can confess my belief in Christ one day and revert back to my old habits the next and everything be just fine.

We will be known by the fruit we bare and how we use the talents God has given us.

Widescreen

2/28/2007, 05:43 PM

"Feelgood christianity" is prospering IMO because churches have found that if they sugarcoat the message that more folks will show up and fill the pews. Not really considering that the short term gain in numbers/cash means nothing if these folks lose their faith within a month or two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

Frozen Sooner

2/28/2007, 05:45 PM

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6712/malachiin5.gif

OUTLANDER!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I know. It's amazing that I've managed to keep myself from raping and burning across the country so far.

Ike

2/28/2007, 05:46 PM

It's not all fun and games.

So you're saying that I shouldn't join a church just because I want to play in their softball league?

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 05:47 PM

Well...if that was the case why would God need to have turned me around? ;)

we were once all going the wrong way need turned around.

swardboy

2/28/2007, 05:50 PM

So you're saying that I shouldn't join a church just because I want to play in their softball league?

Wouldn't that be like joining the Nazi's because you like brown boots?

crawfish

2/28/2007, 05:50 PM

When I think of worship I think of how we praise God and thank Him for all He's blessed us with and that it's more for Him than us. Coming from a similar church background as you do I can say that I've seen way too many folks become too focused on a specific way to worship and get all bent out of shape if something is done "out of place" or if the order of worship gets changed.

So I kinda feel that when we think too much that it is for us or about us is when we have problems in churches.

I do agree with that. My point was that God wants us to worship not because he has this innate desire to be worshiped, but because he knows that we have an innate need to worship as a way to keep our commitment to Him and others alive. Most certainly, from our perspective worship is all about God.

"Feelgood christianity" is prospering IMO because churches have found that if they sugarcoat the message that more folks will show up and fill the pews. Not really considering that the short term gain in numbers/cash means nothing if these folks lose their faith within a month or two.

Teach the message so that folks can understand it, but don't leave parts out if you're afraid they might get turned off because being a christian isn't as easy as they thought.

Agree with this, too. There are a number of Osteen-like churches who tell people things like "God wants you to be healthy", "God wants you to prosper", etc., which is an incredibly dangerous theology. Eleven of Jesus' disciples were killed in His name, and those were who He loved the most on this earth - what makes us think we're going to be exempt from hardship? It will end up weakening one's faith when that person discovers that the message is false.

swardboy

2/28/2007, 05:52 PM

"Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe."

I still wish Jesus would have walked up to Pilate after the resurrection and said, "Remember me?"

crawfish

2/28/2007, 05:52 PM

we were once all going the wrong way need turned around.

If I was "predestined" before I was born, then that should have taken place long before it did.

I really, really don't want to get into this discussion, btw. All I wanna do is stay out of the gumbo.

crawfish

2/28/2007, 05:53 PM

Yeah, I know. It's amazing that I've managed to keep myself from raping and burning across the country so far.

I attribute it to the satisfying whirr of the 50HP hooker disposal.

Ike

2/28/2007, 05:55 PM

Wouldn't that be like joining the Nazi's because you like brown boots?
I wonder if anybody ever did this...

"Gee, I'm not so keen on the whole killing the Jews thing, but those armbands sure are snazzy. Where do I sign up to get one?"

Hamhock

2/28/2007, 05:56 PM

If I was "predestined" before I was born, then that should have taken place long before it did.

if you weren't, what does Romans 8:29-30 mean?

Widescreen

2/28/2007, 05:57 PM

if you weren't, what does Romans 8:29-30 mean?

I really, really don't want to get into this discussion, btw.
:pop:

FaninAma

2/28/2007, 05:59 PM

Depending on what part of the world you live in being killed for your faith comes to mind.

The amount of faith that would cause you to risk your and, even more difficult, your family's life for your faith is asking a lot. But , as with other Christian tenets, being forgiven for shortcomings is a part of the deal. If you fail but have accepted Christ then you continue to get stronger in your faith. It's not like one day you wake up and you are as strong as one of the martyrs in the New Testament. Even the Apostles denied Christ but they grew in their faith and didn't denyhim later on. If you stumble and start thinking you're not worthy and that there's no use in even trying then you have made a tragic mistake.

Things like not conforming to the world around you and caving in to the opinions/wishes of others. Living a life of honesty and respect and not reverting back to our old habits. Helping others less fortunate. Being a good witness for Christ. It's not all fun and games.

Again, growing in faith is a journey and everybody progresses at different speeds on that journey. Now I agree that if you really haven't accepted the grace of God through Christ then your actions will reflect that. But if you have really accepted what Christ offers then you keep growing and trying to become more Chrisitian through your actions. Those who don't continue to grow will eventually fall away and get tired of going through the act.

I don't think for a second that I can earn anything. To the contrary, I don't think that I can confess my belief in Christ one day and revert back to my old habits the next and everything be just fine.

We will be known by the fruit we bare and how we use the talents God has given us.

Again, true Christians fall short of God's expectations just like non-Christians do. What matters is if you accept forgiveness and try to grow in grace and as you do your actions reflect that.

I'm sure my view of faith sounds pretty contrived to some and I don't disagree with what your saying about deeds reflecting your faith, but I think too many people shut the door and give up too quickly because they think it's too hard and that they can't possibly live up to the standards God sets. In reality it only matters that God knows the intent of your heart and whether your professions of faith are truly motivated by an acceptance of Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter whetehr I or any body else approves of your actions. If you expect to never come up short of God's expectations you're setting yourself up for failure.