Should non-citizens be allowed to vote in the US?

[Widescreen]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02202007/news/regionalnews/let_aliens_vote__activists_regionalnews_frankie_ed ozien.htm


February 20, 2007 -- Immigrant-rights activists yesterday renewed their push to allow legal noncitizens to vote in the Big Apple.

A bill that would grant permanent residents and other legal immigrants the right to vote in municipal elections has been stalled in the City Council since last year.

"More than 50,000 adult noncitizen taxpayers in those two districts are disenfranchised by citizenship voting laws," said Cheryl Wertz, of New Immigrant Community Empowerment, referring to today's special election for council seats in Brooklyn and Staten Island.

Councilman Charles Barron (D-Brooklyn), the sponsor of the Voting Rights Restoration Act, said that years ago, when immigrants were mostly European, they had voting rights.

"Then when the complexion of immigrants changes, then all of a sudden, the laws change," he said.

Ron Hayduk, a CUNY professor, concurred, saying immigrants voted in national elections from 1776 through 1926.

I really hate the word disenfranchised. Every time we have elections, some group claims someone was disenfranchised because they saw some cop 500 yards from the voting place and he gave them the evil eye causing them to not be able to vote. I'm pretty sure legal residents are not disenfranchised. If they want to vote, they can probably send in an absentee ballot to their home country.

[mdklatt]

If they can vote, why even bother making a distinction between citizens and non-citizens anymore?

[frankensooner]

Oh, no, it looks like The Gangs of New York all over again!!! ;)

[OUDoc]

Why would I want a non-citizen to vote?

[Hamhock]

are you effin kidding me?

[jk the sooner fan]

are you effin kidding me?

my sentiments exactly

[MamaMia]

No, and neither should people who don't pay taxes.

[frankensooner]

No, and neither should people who don't pay taxes.
Do you mean people who are rich and avoid taxes or poor people who get like earned-income credit?

[jacru]

Better question: Should non-citizens be allowed to live in the US?

[fadada1]

i wonder if one of us lived in say, england... and we wanted to vote in their elections, i wonder what they would say.



are you f-ing serious???!!!??!

[mdklatt]

No, and neither should people who don't pay taxes.

I don't think it's fair to prevent the wealthy from voting.


Here's what we should do: Everybody gets a number votes based on the amount of taxes they pay. You pay more taxes, you get more votes.

[MamaMia]

I don't think it's fair to prevent the wealthy from voting.:D

[Pricetag]

i wonder if one of us lived in say, england... and we wanted to vote in their elections, i wonder what they would say.



are you f-ing serious???!!!??!
Are you sodding serious, chap?

[jacru]

The myth that won't die: the rich don't pay taxes.

[Hamhock]

Do you mean people who are rich and avoid taxes ?


myth

[jk the sooner fan]

i wonder if one of us lived in say, england... and we wanted to vote in their elections, i wonder what they would say.



are you f-ing serious???!!!??!

they'd probably say "are you bloody serious"

they're queer that way

[fadada1]

seriously... wankers.

[royalfan5]

I think we should New York back to the Dutch. Seriously what good are they?

[jacru]

I think we should New York back to the Dutch. Seriously what good are they?
throw in Massachusetts as a bonus.

[KABOOKIE]

I wonder who Osama would vote for?

[crawfish]

"Welcome to America, and welcome to New York Tours! Today we will be visiting the Statue of Liberty, Times Square and the Empire State Building. As an added bonus, we will also be visiting precinct 11 so you can cast a vote for the presidency!!!"

[Tear Down This Wall]

Why would I want a non-citizen to vote?

So they can screw up our country, too, they way they did their own before they had to leave?

Look at the Mexicans...it took them decades to figure out PRI was corrupt. If the non-citizens begin to vote, USA will be Central and South America, part II - crappy socialist leaders who have no concept of how to run an economy, but who know how to promise things to the masses of poor that vote them in.

Gee, that'll be a lot of fun, won't it?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So they can screw up our country, too, they way they did their own before they had to leave?

Look at the Mexicans...it took them decades to figure out PRI was corrupt. If the non-citizens begin to vote, USA will be Central and South America, part II - crappy socialist leaders who have no concept of how to run an economy, but who know how to promise things to the masses of poor that vote them in.

Gee, that'll be a lot of fun, won't it?So, who do you recommend, Hillary or Obama?

[soonersweetie]

HELL NO!!!!!

[jacru]

I hear democrats are registering club gitmo detainees.

[NormanPride]

You're all a bunch of racists.

;)

[SoonerGirl06]

This about the dumbest idea I've heard all day. And the mere mention of it just makes me GRRRRRR......

[usmc-sooner]

the rich pay more taxes than anyone in the country. Some up to 52%, now if they have a good accountant they can find many legal ways to claim deductions. I've always wondered why people think rich folk don't pay, when they pay out the arse, it's the poor who don't pay squat. When I was low rank in the USMC, I didn't pay squat. I mean I did pay something but it wasn't much, and I got returns. I actually made so little they waived the Ok state tax.

[jeremy885]

Lets see, my income has gone up 143% since tax year 2004 and my federal tax owed has gone up 215% for 2006 (with educational credits in 2006 for the wife being the only change in deductions and credits).

I think the "rich" pay their fair share.

[AlbqSooner]

I was all in favor of the rich bearing a more substantial portion of the tax burden until I found out the gubmint thinks I am rich.

[85Sooner]

I don't think it's fair to prevent the wealthy from voting.


Here's what we should do: Everybody gets a number votes based on the amount of taxes they pay. You pay more taxes, you get more votes.


ding ding ding

[Chuck Bao]

I wonder who Osama would vote for?

Republican, obviously. :mad:

[soonerjoker]

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mdklatt]

ding ding ding


I was being sarcastic. :rolleyes:

[mdklatt]

Lets see, my income has gone up 143% since tax year 2004 and my federal tax owed has gone up 215% for 2006 (with educational credits in 2006 for the wife being the only change in deductions and credits).

I think the "rich" pay their fair share.


You must not be wealthy enough to pay for a good tax attorney. :texan:

[Hamhock]

You must not be wealthy enough to pay for a good tax attorney. :texan:


you don't seriously believe this carp do you?

[mdklatt]

you don't seriously believe this carp do you?

What? That there are tons of loopholes in the tax code? Why yes, yes I do.

[Hamhock]

What? That there are tons of loopholes in the tax code? Why yes, yes I do.


name one.

[mdklatt]

name one.

Aren't FICA and SS taxes capped at the first $85,000 of salary?

There's one.

[Hamhock]

Aren't FICA and SS taxes capped at the first $85,000 of salary?

There's one.


it's actually higher than that and it's only social security. you know, the plan where you give your own money to the govt and they give it back to you at retirement...



i have many clients who paid the maximum amount of social security tax nearly their entire adult life, only to get zero social security benefits because their income was to high at retirement.

medicare tax never stops.

i still don't understand how the gov't letting someone keep their own money is a loophole.

try again.

"the rich don't pay taxes" is empty rhetoric. admit it.

[Tear Down This Wall]

So, who do you recommend, Hillary or Obama?

Neither. This was an NYC politician pushing the legislation for that city only.

In 2008, if a current Republican Senator is the nominee, I suggest sitting it out until 2012.

[mdklatt]

"the rich don't pay taxes" is empty rhetoric. admit it.

Well boo freakin' hoo, who knew it was such a burden to be wealthy? That's easy enough to fix for people who have a problem with it.

"The poor don't pay taxes" (and illegal immigrants, while we're at it) is empty rhetoric, too. Everybody pays sales taxes and property taxes. And back to the point I was getting at however many pages ago, paying taxes should not be a prerequisite for voting.

[Hamhock]

Well boo freakin' hoo, who knew it was such a burden to be wealthy?

That's right. Just caused you earned all that money doesn't give you the right to keep any of it. :rolleyes:


"The poor don't pay taxes" (and illegal immigrants, while we're at it) is empty rhetoric, too. Everybody pays sales taxes and property taxes. And back to the point I was getting at however many pages ago, paying taxes should not be a prerequisite for voting.

The poor don't pay income taxes. not only do they not pay income taxes, but they are handed money via the earned income credit.

people who don't own land don't pay property taxes.

sales tax is not a tax that is levied on the poor, but not the rich, as people claim with income tax.

i'm still waiting to hear about the "tons" of loopholes. i wanna start using some of them.

[usmc-sooner]

That's right. Just caused you earned all that money doesn't give you the right to keep any of it. :rolleyes:



The poor don't pay income taxes. not only do they not pay income taxes, but they are handed money via the earned income credit.

people who don't own land don't pay property taxes.

sales tax is not a tax that is levied on the poor, but not the rich, as people claim with income tax.

i'm still waiting to hear about the "tons" of loopholes. i wanna start using some of them.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an answer from him.

[mdklatt]

That's right. Just caused you earned all that money doesn't give you the right to keep any of it. :rolleyes:


Advise your clients to quit making as much money, and they'll lower their tax burden significantly. Imagine all the taxes Bill Gates pays. It sure sucks to be him. Man, I hope I never get a raise ever again--more taxes!!

Look, I see where you're coming from philosophically. But in the real world, complaining that you pay a lot of taxes because you make a lot of money isn't going to get you much sympathy.



people who don't own land don't pay property taxes.

Bull****, bull****, bull****, bull****. You don't think property taxes are factored into rent??

[usmc-sooner]

Advise your clients to quit making as much money, and they'll lower their tax burden significantly. Imagine all the taxes Bill Gates pays. It sure sucks to be him. Man, I hope I never get a raise ever again--more taxes!!

Look, I see where you're coming from philosophically. But in the real world, complaining that you pay a lot of taxes because you make a lot of money isn't going to get you much sympathy.




Bull****, bull****, bull****, bull****. You don't think property taxes are factored into rent??

BS that's not even the argument, you tried to say the wealthy don't pay taxes, when they do. You're the only one trying to make it out as if someone is saying it sucks to be wealthy.

[Okieflyer]

Should non-citizens be allowed to vote in the US?


:mad:

[Widescreen]

Bull****, bull****, bull****, bull****. You don't think property taxes are factored into rent??
By that standard, anything you purchase (even if it's sales tax free) is you indirectly paying the business owner's taxes. I don't think you can stretch the taxes thing that far.

[Vaevictis]

By that standard, anything you purchase (even if it's sales tax free) is you indirectly paying the business owner's taxes. I don't think you can stretch the taxes thing that far.

Sure you can. A business is going to include all of its expenses -- and don't kid yourself, taxes are an expense -- when determining how much they need to charge to make a target profit.

Renters don't directly pay property taxes, that's true, but you can bet that any property manager worth his or her salt is going to consider those taxes (and upkeep, etc) when setting the rents.

Put another way, sure, renters don't pay property tax, but just where do you think the property owner is getting the money to pay those taxes from?

[Vaevictis]

And when it comes to letting non-citizens vote, I'm actually with TDTW on this one.

In general, people from Latin America and the Carribean are notoriously tolerant of corruption and government that is inept even by our standards. You need look no further than what the Cubans did to Miami for evidence of that. (For those who don't know, Miami went bankrupt and doesn't exist as an entity anymore -- it was absorbed by the county)

If you want to let non-citizens vote in your city, that's fine by me, but when they bankrupt the city and the place is crawling with violence and corruption, don't say I didn't warn you.

[Octavian]

the gubmint needs taxes from the wealthy now more than ever....it's gonna be expensive funding all these liberation campaigns across the globe.


The wealthy wanted Pub leaders in office....Pub leaders decided we needed to democratize the globe, and the wealthy applauded....so those who put those masterminds in postions of power should bear the burden for our wars of liberation.


Let us poor heathens keep our pitiful social worker salaries.....TAX THE RICH! TAX THE RICH!!


;)

[Octavian]

...and no....non-citizens should not be allowed to vote.

[Widescreen]

Sure you can. A business is going to include all of its expenses -- and don't kid yourself, taxes are an expense -- when determining how much they need to charge to make a target profit.

Renters don't directly pay property taxes, that's true, but you can bet that any property manager worth his or her salt is going to consider those taxes (and upkeep, etc) when setting the rents.

Put another way, sure, renters don't pay property tax, but just where do you think the property owner is getting the money to pay those taxes from?
I understand all of that. But to claim that paying rent or buying sales-tax free medicine is the same as paying taxes is a stretch. What % of the purchase price of a loaf of bread is actually going to pay the storeowner's income taxes? I doubt anyone even knows because it would be microscopic. The only time I can see it being significant would be if you're dealing with a rental situation with a single home. Obviously the homeowner is going to pass the entire burdern of property taxes on the renter. In the case of a large apartment complex, the % is going to be extremely small on a per-unit basis.

[Hamhock]

i don't object to the rich paying lots of taxes. i object to people saying the rich pay zero taxes. quit trying to twist my argument

i guess the rent/property tax issue makes my point. everyone pays the same tax. no preference to the rich or poor.

still waiting on the loopholes in the tax system that are available only to the rich.

lunch was delicious

[Vaevictis]

I understand all of that. But to claim that paying rent or buying sales-tax free medicine is the same as paying taxes is a stretch.

Do the taxes cost them? Yes. Is their rent/purchase driving tax revenue? Yes.

It's not the same as paying taxes, but the dollars still end up in the tax man's wallet.


What % of the purchase price of a loaf of bread is actually going to pay the storeowner's income taxes? I doubt anyone even knows because it would be microscopic.

I bet the store owner or his accountant could tell you. :D

I will say that income taxes are a little harder to deal with because they vary with actual income. There are other taxes that are fixed with respect to income that are easier to account for though -- payroll, property, etc.


In the case of a large apartment complex, the % is going to be extremely small on a per-unit basis.

As a percentage of the total property tax paid on the apartment complex? Sure. But I bet it's around 100% of the property tax attributable to the particular apartment, plus a portion of the property taxes due on any public amenities.

[jeremy885]

Sure you can. A business is going to include all of its expenses -- and don't kid yourself, taxes are an expense -- when determining how much they need to charge to make a target profit.

Renters don't directly pay property taxes, that's true, but you can bet that any property manager worth his or her salt is going to consider those taxes (and upkeep, etc) when setting the rents.

Put another way, sure, renters don't pay property tax, but just where do you think the property owner is getting the money to pay those taxes from?

I worked for a real estate management company that had apartments in Norman. We always took property taxes into account when determining rental rates.

[Octavian]

i guess the rent/property tax issue makes my point. everyone pays the same tax. no preference to the rich or poor.


we have a flat tax now?

[Hamhock]

we have a flat tax now?


is my property tax calculated different than the rich guy's?

[Octavian]

is my property tax calculated different than the rich guy's?


wait....I thought you were the rich guy. :confused:


this thread is going nowhere fast

[Hamhock]

wait....I thought you were the rich guy. :confused:


this thread is going nowhere fast


nope.

believe it or not, even I, the poor guy, can see the bullshiatness of saying the rich don't pay taxes.

[StoopTroup]

Americans should be allowed to vote in every Country in the World IMO.

Put that in your pipe and smoke on it for awhile...:D

[OUDoc]

Americans should be allowed to vote in every Country in the World IMO.

Put that in your pipe and smoke on it for awhile...:D
Well, duh. I thought we were talking about people from other countries. ;)

[mdklatt]

By that standard, anything you purchase (even if it's sales tax free) is you indirectly paying the business owner's taxes.

It's the retailers responsibility to remit sales tax, so I guess I don't pay sales tax either. I also don't pay gasoline tax, airport tax, telephone tax...no tax except income tax. Hurray!

[Harry Beanbag]

Some people's thought processes scare me.

[mdklatt]

you tried to say the wealthy don't pay taxes, when they do.

Which was supposed to be a joke, by the way.