Illinois caves to NCAA pressure and scraps its Chief Illiniwek mascot

[CShine]

Unless a judge stops them, University of Illinois officials will announce Friday that Chief Illiniwek, the controversial and storied mascot who has performed for 81 years, is to dance for the last time next week.

University officials had made extensive preparations for Friday's announcement. But according to a source familiar with the university's plan, the process took a turn Thursday when the two students who portray the chief filed a lawsuit against the university and the National Collegiate Athletic Association.

The students are seeking a restraining order that would prevent the university from dumping the chief and would lift the NCAA's sanctions against the university's sports teams. A Champaign County judge will hear their application Friday morning in Urbana.

.......

In 2005 the NCAA ruled that Chief Illiniwek and some mascots at other universities were "hostile and abusive." The resulting sanctions have prevented the university from hosting men's tennis and women's soccer championship games.

Last month, university board of trustees Chairman Lawrence Eppley said a decision about the chief's future would be made this year in response to the NCAA ruling. Eppley did not return a call seeking comment Thursday.

The students' lawsuit against the university and the NCAA alleges that being forced to abandon their positions as chief would violate, among other things, their freedom of speech, academic freedom and future economic earnings.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0702160179feb16,1,3166359.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

[OUWxGuesser]

Guess it is up to our lawsuit (UND). What a mess...

[illinisooner]

The whole situation with the Chief is completely absurd...it's been going on for years, and have yet to hear a rational explanation as to why he's bad. Everything is just too PC I guess. I've seen the Chief perform at halftime of the basketball games and the performance is treated with respect by everyone...no laughing at the funny indian or whatever. The majority of N.A.'s that have been interviewed have either said they don't care about the chief or that he's not degrading to them. It seems that those who do say he's degrading are just looking for a little publicity, media facetime, and maybe some cash. Good to see that the students are stepping up to save a great Illinois tradition.

[KABOOKIE]

Fighting Irish next.......

[DeadSolidPerfect]

Maybe it's not the Indian mascot the N.A.'s are upset about but rather the quality of the teams he represents.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Perhaps Illinios should make a new mascot and work the word F U NCAA into it...Just sayin'

[BoomerJack]

Good for the University of Illinois.

[OUGreg723]

As much as I hate the NCAA, the Chief Illiniwek mascot is offensive to many Native Americans and I'm not gonna lose any sleep over this. No other race is used as mascots for teams and organizations besides the Native Americans. How would a white person feel if a team was called the 'Fighting Whities'? or what about the 'Fighting Blackies'? I'm sure there would be many upset people. Incorrect stereotypes should have no place in an institution of higher education. Even when we had Little Red (Indian organizations at OU actually chose who would play the mascot) here at OU, he was still offensive to many people. We moved on with our mascot and still have wonderful tradition. The Sooner Schooner is now one of the most recognized mascots in all of sports, and now we also have the wonderful horsepigs!

All I'm trying to say is that Native Americans have every right to be offended and we should put ourselves in their situation and see how we would feel.

[mikeelikee]

Yeah, BoomerJack, I agree. Political correctness run amuck helps everyone. :rolleyes:

I'm also looking forward to January 20, 2009. Hopefully, we'll be celebrating the inauguration of a geniune Reagan-conservative!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I love the Fightin' Whities...

But my heritage is demeaned. I am from Viking ancestry.


All I'm trying to say is that Native Americans have every right to be offended and we should put ourselves in their situation and see how we would feel.

Yeah, but who gets to have a comment. UND for instance has Souix backing in ND, but not everywhere else. Who gets to be "offended"? Should I (in Texas) if I were Souix get to be offended and force UND to drop their mascot, even if my (supposed) tribe never had traditional territory in the area?

[OUGreg723]

Also: During Indian Removal thousands of Illiniwek were forced off their land by the US government and forced to relocate to Oklahoma. The remaining Illiniwek are very against the mascot being used by the institution. How could it be an honor to have some inaccurate portrayal of an Illiniwek Chief, dancing in front of thousands of non-natives at sporting events when they were forcibly removed from their own land by these same people? There is no honor in that.

[OUGreg723]

Yeah, but who gets to have a comment. UND for instance has Souix backing in ND, but not everywhere else. Who gets to be "offended"? Should I (in Texas) if I were Souix get to be offended and force UND to drop their mascot, even if my (supposed) tribe never had traditional territory in the area?



That's a good point. I don't know the answer to that one myself. All I know is that the remaining Illiniwek have repeatedly said they are offended and not honored by Chief Illiniwek. I guess, like you said, it just depends on who you're asking. At FSU most Seminoles support the mascot and traditions held there. I guess there really is no right answer, but I can definitely sympathize with those who are offended.

[MojoRisen]

That's a good point. I don't know the answer to that one myself. All I know is that the remaining Illiniwek have repeatedly said they are offended and not honored by Chief Illiniwek. I guess, like you said, it just depends on who you're asking. At FSU most Seminoles support the mascot and traditions held there. I guess there really is no right answer, but I can definitely sympathize with those who are offended.


Sure and agree- too bad though when I was at the final four a couple years back- Illini had by far the best fight song and the big hairdress was relatively intimidating and something too see. All the Illinois fans were walking in big lines though too beat the crowd and I would take humor in bumping into the littlest one at the end of the line.

[illinisooner]

Anytime ethnic heritage names are used for nicknames/mascots, people are bound to be offended. That's just the way it is. Being an Illini fan and from Illinois, I've grown up with the Chief and all of the controversy, and I'm tired of it. Now does U of I have to change their nickname to something other than the Fighting Illini or do they have to drop the Fighting and just become the Illini?

[KABOOKIE]

No other race is used as mascots for teams and organizations besides the Native Americans.

Really?

[SoonerBorn68]

In 2005 the NCAA ruled that Chief Illiniwek and some mascots at other universities were "hostile and abusive." The resulting sanctions have prevented the university from hosting men's tennis and women's soccer championship games.

Hostile indians? Poor choice of wording to be sure in the PC world the libs have created.

[OUGreg723]

Really?

As far as I can think of. If there are others, none are used to the extent that Native Americans are used.

[SoonerBorn68]

Cowboys?

Vikings?

[Doged]

Batteries everywhere are offended by the San Diego team. Airplanes are up in arms over one NY team and large people over the other. Aquatic mammals, land thieves, Irishmen, cattlemen, fish, ranch workers, oil field workers, lizards, horses, cows, chickens, pigs (horse-pigs, too!), rodents, industrial workers, vegetables, pagans, occultists, armed robbers, trees, Norsemen, members of the military (current and former), cats, dogs, birds and the survivors of severe weather events all have right to be offended now, so rejoice and call your local paper about whatever whiney thing it is that offends you, too.

[OUGreg723]

Cowboys?

Vikings?


Cowboys are not a race of people though. A cowboy is a profession. And Vikings are pretty much ancient history. But I guess you could say Vikings. That is still only one. There are hundreds of teams with Indian mascots.

[illinisooner]

As far as I can think of. If there are others, none are used to the extent that Native Americans are used.

What do you mean by "to the extent that Native Americans are used"?

[OUGreg723]

Batteries everywhere are offended by the San Diego team. Airplanes are up in arms over one NY team and large people over the other. Aquatic mammals, land thieves, Irishmen, cattlemen, fish, ranch workers, oil field workers, lizards, horses, cows, chickens, pigs (horse-pigs, too!), rodents, industrial workers, vegetables, pagans, occultists, armed robbers, trees, Norsemen, members of the military (current and former), cats, dogs, birds and the survivors of severe weather events all have right to be offended now, so rejoice and call your local paper about whatever whiney thing it is that offends you, too.


Haha. You put it in a good perspective.;)

[OUGreg723]

What do you mean by "to the extent that Native Americans are used"?

I just meant that Native Americans are used as mascots more than any other race of people in North America by a long shot. Why is that? I don't know the answer, maybe racism maybe not. It is just something to think about.

[CrimsonChampion]

Contraversy is getting stirred up like a mofo over all kinds of topics. If you're offended by a mascot I'd say you have more things to deal with. People just seem to want to stir things up sometimes. Why? Because WE LET THEM

If something is truly offensive, like a mascot of a whiteman running around with indian hair in his hands, that should be banned. An indian mascot doing a dance is not offensive. I'm not full blood indian, I have alot but not full blood so maybe I'm not qualified to comment, but it just seems like people are trying to get something going that isn't doing any harm at all.

The rebel flag might hold more weight as far as being offensive, however I don't think it's as bad as some might say either. It stands for the south, some say it stands for slavery. The south has some bad history, but it's still history. I'm not saying it's ok to fly the flag at banks and schools because it's not America's flag. A school, however, that has had that flag as a logo or whatever, I don't see the problem.

[illinisooner]

I think it's because they are considered fighters and warriors which most teams want their athletes to emulate. See also, "fighting Irish", "Golden State Warriors". If that's demeaning, I was not aware. If some teams were named, "the drunken Crow" or "the scalping Creek", I could understand Native Americans being upset.

Good points. The "Fightin' Texas Aggies" is a good example of just putting the word fighting in front of any other nickname. I wonder if the Fighting Illini never put Fighting in the nickname, if there would be as much controversy. Most people just call them the Illini anyway.

[bixby28]

I went through this situation last semester with my alma mater. The Redmen mascot was dropped at Northeastern State University and was replaced by the Riverhawks. I graduated with the last class of NSU Redmen, but the mascot change caused a huge PC stink all over the campus.

This makes me sick to see it happen at my dad's alma mater, Illinois.

[Doged]

According to Wikipedia, the Illini weren't even a tribe or nation.


The Illiniwek (also known as the Illini, Illinois, Illinois Confederacy) were a group of six Native American tribes in the upper Mississippi River valley of North America. The tribes were the Kaskaskia, the Cahokia, the Peoria, the Tamaroa, Moingwena and the Michigamea.

I have no idea what that adds to the discussion. It's just a random thing I thought I'd throw out there. :D

[MiccoMacey]

If something is truly offensive...

Not trying to get into a "Sqwa"bble (haha), but that's the point. Who gets to decide what's truly offensive?

Obviously, the example you set forth is offensive to you. And I think most people would agree with you. Yet your next example, you don't see as offensive. But almost an entire race does.

Who gets to decide what's offensive?

[Doged]

Yet your next example, you don't see as offensive. But almost an entire race does.

Has anyone done the numbers to see what percentage of Indians think it's offensive?

[illinisooner]

Has anyone done the numbers to see what percentage of Indians think it's offensive?

Someone takes a poll every so often (I can only speak for the Illini ones) and the majority think it's either not offensive, or they don't care. At least that's what it usually is.

[tnraider1]

The way I look at it, pretty much every school with an Indian nickname has a strong indian background in it's area. Also, one of the most noted things about Native Americans from 200/300 years ago, is what great warriors they were. So how is it that people look at this as a negative thing. To me it would be an honor. I'm half Irish, should Notre Dame offend me? Would anyone care? Not likely. I see the situation with Native Americans and black people being very similar, when it comes to how our country handles thier complaints. Everyone is guilted into giving in to whatever demands are set forth due to things that didn't occur in most of our lifetimes. How do you explain why Jessie Jackson hasn't been killed yet? I'll kill him 5 times over to get MLK back.

[GottaHavePride]

No other race is used as mascots for teams and organizations besides the Native Americans.
Athenians
Argonauts
Barons
Belles
Black Knights (heh, just thought I'd throw that in there)
Britons
Buccaneers
Cavaliers
Celtics
Celts
Claim Jumpers
Colonials
Conquerors
Cowboys
Crusaders
Dirtbags (double-heh)
Dutch
Dutchmen
Flying Dutchmen
Frogs (take THAT, France!)
Gaels
Gauchos
Giants (and THAT, hyper-thyroidic peoples!)
Gothic Knights
Highland Cavaliers
Highlanders
Hilltoppers
Hoosiers
Hustlin' Quakers
Irish
Jersey Devils
Kangaroos (take THAT, Aussie bastards!)
Leathernecks
Loggers
Maccabees
Matadors
Mounties
Nads (seriously, wtf?)
Northmen
Norse
Patriots
Pilgrims
Pirates
Quakers
Ragin' Cajuns
Rebels
Rivermen
Royal Crusaders
Runnin' Rebels
Saints
Saxons
Scots
Scotties
Senators
Shockers
Sooners
Spartans
Swedes
Tarheels
Tartans
Texans
Titans
Tritons
Trojans
Vikings
Wasps (heh)
Women of Troy

So, while a few of those were thrown in for comedic intent, I don't think the claim that Native Americans are the ONLY ethnic group to be used as mascots holds water. I think the Greeks, Irish, Scottish, Swedish, Norse, English, Canadians, Jews, Quakers, Dutch, and Spaniards (at the least) would all argue that point.

[swardboy]

South Carolina "COCKS".....there's HALF the human population!

[Doged]

Black Knights (heh, just thought I'd throw that in there)


The Chartreuse Knights feel excluded.


Nads (seriously, wtf?)

Yeah, baby.. GO NADS!!

[OUFan22]

Yeah, BoomerJack, I agree. Political correctness run amuck helps everyone. :rolleyes:

I'm also looking forward to January 20, 2009. Hopefully, we'll be celebrating the inauguration of a geniune Reagan-conservative!
Amen to that!

[GottaHavePride]

The Chartreuse Knights feel excluded.



Yeah, baby.. GO NADS!!

Well, There are a lot of colors of Knights that I left out. ;)

[SCOUT]

I am most certainly offended by the Texans.

More the team than the name, but still.

[MiccoMacey]

Has anyone done the numbers to see what percentage of Indians think it's offensive?

I was referring to his other example, the one about the Confederate flag. That offends most Black Americans (don't have a statistic handy, but I'd be willing to bet the house it's pretty high).

[insuranceman_22]

Sorry to rant a little here, but people simply need to get over this s**t. I'm a regular old white fella (meaning I'm classifed as white on those forms you fill out), but I have a lot of different heritages mixed in. My wife however is a Choctaw Indian. She believes people need to be a little more concerned of say feeding hungry folks, school & community drug problems, etc.....you get the drift. We both went to school here in Oklahoma at Southeastern in Durant, the home of the Southeastern Savages....up until about a year ago. They caved to NCAA pressure and switched their name to the Savage Storm. Our mascot is gone and replaced by a drawing that nobody can figure out. I played ball here quite a few yrs. ago and still have all my old college "Savage" stuff. I'm wondering if the campus police will arrest me if I wear it to a game next year?

[CrimsonChampion]

Not trying to get into a "Sqwa"bble (haha), but that's the point. Who gets to decide what's truly offensive?

Obviously, the example you set forth is offensive to you. And I think most people would agree with you. Yet your next example, you don't see as offensive. But almost an entire race does.

Who gets to decide what's offensive?

Point well taken, but I'm just saying a dancing mascot isn't hurting anyone. If it symbolizes something degrading to a race then I see. Like I said, I'm am only part indian myself, what Oklahoman isn't? But maybe I just wouldn't understand.

I was saying that the rebel flag holds more weight because of what alot of people think it stands for. It represents the old south, the old south was an area of slave trade so it definately needs to be discussed.

[GottaHavePride]

Sorry to rant a little here, but people simply need to get over this s**t. I'm a regular old white fella (meaning I'm classifed as white on those forms you fill out), but I have a lot of different heritages mixed in. My wife however is a Choctaw Indian. She believes people need to be a little more concerned of say feeding hungry folks, school & community drug problems, etc.....you get the drift. We both went to school here in Oklahoma at Southeastern in Durant, the home of the Southeastern Savages....up until about a year ago. They caved to NCAA pressure and switched their name to the Savage Storm. Our mascot is gone and replaced by a drawing that nobody can figure out. I played ball here quite a few yrs. ago and still have all my old college "Savage" stuff. I'm wondering if the campus police will arrest me if I wear it to a game next year?

That's where my mom and dad went to school.

[goingoneight]

I think the horsepigs are very offensive to errr... horses, BANE THEM!!! :eek:

[Frozen Sooner]

Interesting.

A private entity makes a rule that affects their willing members, get sued (a blatant attempt to bring the courts into the workings of that private organization), and the people who'd normally be making a big stink about this are all on the side of the people suing.

[stoopified]

Fighting Irish next.......You are kiddind BUT.If naming a team after an etnic group and having an ethic mascot is wrong then the Fighting Irish,Trojans,Sprtans,Cowboys,Sooners,Huskers etc. are on the chopping block.Sooners was originally a denigrating term for those who settled Oklahoma SOONER than the OFFICIAL start of the land run . Therefore wouldn't that mean continued use of the nickname and the Schooner are perpetuating a negative stereotype?Spartans and Trojans are protrayed as warlike savages with their swords and sheilds.I thik the whole PC thing is crap.Everybody chooses nicknames and symbols they can be PROUD of,not ones that make fun of or demean their subjects.

If it is so wrong then why does the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT name helicoptersKoiwa,Comanche, and Apache?Why is this not wrong.If native Americans are offended by teams named after them shouldn't they be more angered by instruments of WAR bearing their names?I would be the first to say Savages and Redskins are offenive nicknames BUT Braves,Indians,Warriors etc.?Give me a break.

[OUWxGuesser]

At UND, the main hostility seems to be over the issue itself... and not whether the logo is actually offending anyone. The way I see it, it has the backing of the majority of the tribes that comprise the Sioux. UND has gone out of its way to create plenty of funding/scholarship/organizations for Native Americans in an effort to reach out to those peoples. Heck... the logo was even designed by a native american. We have no tomahawk chant, or any sort of dressesd mascot. At every sport event we are bombarded with a PA about how the logo honors the courage and spirit of the warriors in the past.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0702160179feb16,1,3166359.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed
/me lights his torch and grabs hits pit---assault rifle

[Seamus]

Shockers


Heh. It would be badass it their logo was like this:

http://www.digitalmilitia.com/images/shirt_shocker.jpg

[GottaHavePride]

Sadly, it's more like this:

http://www.wichita.edu/thisis/images/secondary/aboutwsu/aboutwsu-whatsashocker.jpg

[Seamus]

Not to weigh in on this debate too heavily, as my feelings and sensitivities are my own and don't represent anyone outside my corporeal existence, but as a past Irish, part Scotsman, I find it exciting and flattering that my heritage is honored in the form of a university mascot.

http://athletics.wooster.edu/images/old/jpgs/footballhelmet.jpg

[nativesooner]

Most of the Native Americans I know could care less. Some of you seem to think that all the natives are picketing outside the Illini stadium :rolleyes: Last year when this issue came up we had a long discussion on how Indians should be proud and keep their mouths shut. When the daily jokelahoman asked different tribes around Oklahoma what they thought about it they all said they had more important issues to worry about. If the people in Illinois think it's offensive then it should be changed. If not, the NCAA shouldn't bother trying to change that schools tradition. The NCAA tried to say that they got a lot of input from tribes on this matter but come to find out they only got input from a few. In any case of mascots representing a tribe or race, you'll get some who care, some who don't. I think you'll find more natives offended by the fans in cheap costumes and face makeup than the team symbol itself. Believe me, if I saw this guy at a game doing the tomahawk chop dancing in circles I'd certainly want him removed and pimpslapped...

http://www.costume-shop.com/images/products/44230.jpg

[OUstud]

People just need to settle. It's a friggin' sports team's nickname. They should be more worried about improving their many negative stereotypes than what a team has been called for the last 100 years. You don't hear Irish people complaining that ND has a leprechaun mascot.

[DeadSolidPerfect]

I went through this situation last semester with my alma mater. The Redmen mascot was dropped at Northeastern State University and was replaced by the Riverhawks.
Riverhawks?!?!? Oh yeah, that aint' gay. To me, Northeastern State will always be the Redmen.

[85Sooner]

As much as I hate the NCAA, the Chief Illiniwek mascot is offensive to many Native Americans and I'm not gonna lose any sleep over this. No other race is used as mascots for teams and organizations besides the Native Americans. How would a white person feel if a team was called the 'Fighting Whities'? or what about the 'Fighting Blackies'? I'm sure there would be many upset people. Incorrect stereotypes should have no place in an institution of higher education. Even when we had Little Red (Indian organizations at OU actually chose who would play the mascot) here at OU, he was still offensive to many people. We moved on with our mascot and still have wonderful tradition. The Sooner Schooner is now one of the most recognized mascots in all of sports, and now we also have the wonderful horsepigs!

All I'm trying to say is that Native Americans have every right to be offended and we should put ourselves in their situation and see how we would feel.


And they offend me by receiving government checks just because they are of Native American Descent. So there. Lets stop that too. Who knows, by getting rid of the mascots, a little more if their cultural recognition goes away. when it is completely gone , they can then blame the "white guy" for that too. All this because of the way things were over 150 years ago. total silliness. IMHO BTW I am Christian, we were slaughtered by the tons. So accordingly I should be holdiong someone responsible today right?

[tommieharris91]

My thoughts:

If these are offensive, then the word "colored" in NAACP and "negro" in UNCF are just as offensive, if not more.

[Soonrboy]

And they offend me by receiving government checks just because they are of Native American Descent. So there. Lets stop that too. Who knows, by getting rid of the mascots, a little more if their cultural recognition goes away. when it is completely gone , they can then blame the "white guy" for that too. All this because of the way things were over 150 years ago. total silliness. IMHO BTW I am Christian, we were slaughtered by the tons. So accordingly I should be holdiong someone responsible today right?

I wasn't going to open my mouth on this subject, just read along with it slighlty amused until you opened your big mouth.

Do you honestly think that all Indians receive some sort of payment from the government?

We are not talking about crap that hapened 150 years ago, my own mother, was sent to a government run boarding school and wasn't allowed to practice any of her heritage or any or her language because the government wanted to "whiten" the Indians... I could go on about the terrible treatment that Indian kids received at this one boarding school, but I would just look like a whining Indian.

We are talking about a culture that is dying. In a few years, there will be no one around to speak the languages or know the "old ways", and that is a shame. There are people who resent universities using the mascots, mainly because it becomes a respect issue. It goes with stereotyping. NOT ALL INDIANS WERE WARRIORS. Learn some history.

Yeah, the tribes do have other things to worry about, but so does the United States as a whole.

[85Sooner]

I wasn't going to open my mouth on this subject, just read along with it slighlty amused until you opened your big mouth.

Do you honestly think that all Indians receive some sort of payment from the government?

We are not talking about crap that hapened 150 years ago, my own mother, was sent to a government run boarding school and wasn't allowed to practice any of her heritage or any or her language because the government wanted to "whiten" the Indians... I could go on about the terrible treatment that Indian kids received at this one boarding school, but I would just look like a whining Indian.

We are talking about a culture that is dying. In a few years, there will be no one around to speak the languages or know the "old ways", and that is a shame. There are people who resent universities using the mascots, mainly because it becomes a respect issue. It goes with stereotyping. NOT ALL INDIANS WERE WARRIORS. Learn some history.

Yeah, the tribes do have other things to worry about, but so does the United States as a whole.


Actually, I agree with your post. I was talking about taking an opinion that was the opposite extreme of the argument made by people who are offended.

Just as all indians were not warriors it is still one of the most recognized symbols of bravery and beauty. Just like the Trojans etc.....That is what these mascots are portraying.

I know not everyone is paid but there are alot of financial arrangements that have been going on for years but that is another topic and discussion.

I think the folks of , in particular, Oklahoma and New Mexico have celebrated the Native American heritage. Its a shame more people don't get to see the traditions, beauty of the different cultures. I think there probably would be more interest if that was the discussion as opposed to who did what to whom, and who is getting what from whom. Yeah?

[elderlysooner]

Anytime ethnic heritage names are used for nicknames/mascots, people are bound to be offended. That's just the way it is. Being an Illini fan and from Illinois, I've grown up with the Chief and all of the controversy, and I'm tired of it. Now does U of I have to change their nickname to something other than the Fighting Illini or do they have to drop the Fighting and just become the Illini?
I've never met an Irishman who was offended by Notre Dame.,

[snp]

At UND, the main hostility seems to be over the issue itself... and not whether the logo is actually offending anyone. The way I see it, it has the backing of the majority of the tribes that comprise the Sioux. UND has gone out of its way to create plenty of funding/scholarship/organizations for Native Americans in an effort to reach out to those peoples. Heck... the logo was even designed by a native american. We have no tomahawk chant, or any sort of dressesd mascot. At every sport event we are bombarded with a PA about how the logo honors the courage and spirit of the warriors in the past.

Major props to the president of UND for his open letter to the NCAA. That was cool.

[proud gonzo]

Athenians
Argonauts
Barons
Belles
Black Knights (heh, just thought I'd throw that in there)
Britons
Buccaneers
Cavaliers
Celtics
Celts
Claim Jumpers
Colonials
Conquerors
Cowboys
Crusaders
Dirtbags (double-heh)
Dutch
Dutchmen
Flying Dutchmen
Frogs (take THAT, France!)
Gaels
Gauchos
Giants (and THAT, hyper-thyroidic peoples!)
Gothic Knights
Highland Cavaliers
Highlanders
Hilltoppers
Hoosiers
Hustlin' Quakers
Irish
Jersey Devils
Kangaroos (take THAT, Aussie bastards!)
Leathernecks
Loggers
Maccabees
Matadors
Mounties
Nads (seriously, wtf?)
Northmen
Norse
Patriots
Pilgrims
Pirates
Quakers
Ragin' Cajuns
Rebels
Rivermen
Royal Crusaders
Runnin' Rebels
Saints
Saxons
Scots
Scotties
Senators
Shockers
Sooners
Spartans
Swedes
Tarheels
Tartans
Texans
Titans
Tritons
Trojans
Vikings
Wasps (heh)
Women of Troy

So, while a few of those were thrown in for comedic intent, I don't think the claim that Native Americans are the ONLY ethnic group to be used as mascots holds water. I think the Greeks, Irish, Scottish, Swedish, Norse, English, Canadians, Jews, Quakers, Dutch, and Spaniards (at the least) would all argue that point.http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2848/ghpwn3d1wd3.jpg

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Fighting Texas Aggies = Fighting Farmers (Farmers Branch) = "Fighting Russell Crowe"

[NormanPride]

http://www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite?CMP=KNC-G-EF

[insuranceman_22]

That's where my mom and dad went to school.

Small world!

[insuranceman_22]

I wasn't going to open my mouth on this subject, just read along with it slighlty amused until you opened your big mouth.

Do you honestly think that all Indians receive some sort of payment from the government?

We are not talking about crap that hapened 150 years ago, my own mother, was sent to a government run boarding school and wasn't allowed to practice any of her heritage or any or her language because the government wanted to "whiten" the Indians... I could go on about the terrible treatment that Indian kids received at this one boarding school, but I would just look like a whining Indian.

We are talking about a culture that is dying. In a few years, there will be no one around to speak the languages or know the "old ways", and that is a shame. There are people who resent universities using the mascots, mainly because it becomes a respect issue. It goes with stereotyping. NOT ALL INDIANS WERE WARRIORS. Learn some history.

Yeah, the tribes do have other things to worry about, but so does the United States as a whole.

You make good points here. My wife & kiddo's are Choctaw Indians. We don't receive anything from that, they have income limits on it......I know that can open another can of worms, but it does help a lot of people out. They do suppliment students for attendance and good grades, they subsidize housing for the elderly and disabled, etc...... I'm not saying it's a completely fair deal for either side, but the tribes do a lot to help people to. I'm pretty much agreeing with you on this, just trying to add a little support to it! By the way, the languages are dying out, but several of the tribes are trying to teach it in summer programs.

[soonerx7]

As much as I hate the NCAA, the Chief Illiniwek mascot is offensive to many Native Americans and I'm not gonna lose any sleep over this. No other race is used as mascots for teams and organizations besides the Native Americans. How would a white person feel if a team was called the 'Fighting Whities'? or what about the 'Fighting Blackies'? I'm sure there would be many upset people. Incorrect stereotypes should have no place in an institution of higher education. Even when we had Little Red (Indian organizations at OU actually chose who would play the mascot) here at OU, he was still offensive to many people. We moved on with our mascot and still have wonderful tradition. The Sooner Schooner is now one of the most recognized mascots in all of sports, and now we also have the wonderful horsepigs!

All I'm trying to say is that Native Americans have every right to be offended and we should put ourselves in their situation and see how we would feel.
If you are born in America, you are a Native of America.
If you want to get picky about degrading mascots, what about the COWBOY of oSwho.
Now that is down right degrading.
They work hard for a living and shouldn't be treated like that.

[mfosterftw]

Major props to the president of UND for his open letter to the NCAA. That was cool.

As a hockey writer I've been following this on the UND side of things for quite awhile... and Kupchella has got some major balls. The only argument he left out in his letter would be that "hostile and offensive" would be to rename UND after the 7th Cavalry (that's Custer's outfit, the one responsible for most of the massacres).

This is a really good read, folks...

http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/openletter_6-07-06.html


A private entity makes a rule that affects their willing members, get sued (a blatant attempt to bring the courts into the workings of that private organization), and the people who'd normally be making a big stink about this are all on the side of the people suing.

Actually, read the letter... a major portion of UND's argument is that the NCAA didn't go through their normal process at any stage. This was not enacted legislation, but executive fiat. The NCAA has not followed their own procedures (which ARE legally binding) through any of the process.

And remember kids, according to the NCAA, Aztecs are not Native Americans...

I've said it before and I'll say it again... this PC movement about Native American names, mascots, and imagery is a form of ethnic cleansing. Here's something I wrote on a college hockey forum:

It's too bad the NCAA can't look in the mirror and discover the "hostile behavior" is coming from Indianapolis (an ironic place name for the headquarters of the NCAA), because once the landscape has been removed of every mascot and place name with a Native American reference, they will have successfully completed another stage of ethnic cleansing, and we will be on our way to forgetting that Native Americans ever existed in this country.

Part of the problem is that the average tenure of a university president isn't what it used to be. The president at OKC U. who made the change, for example, was around for about 18 months (if that). These guys bounce around from school to school, and thus develop no deep loyalty or appreciation for the traditions of their institutions. If I lost anyone in this rant, I'll remind you these short timers are the same people who make the rules in the NCAA.


Anyway... that's enough from me...

BTW, OUWxGuesser, there's a greater than zero chance I'll be relocating to Grand Forks in the near future... If I come up, I'll show you my chase credentials (OU SoM '89-'92)...

Marc

[stoopified]

I've never met an Irishman who was offended by Notre Dame.,
You have now.I hate ND and their gold helmets and leprachaun ascot.It is demeaning and offensive.Don't even get me started on Touchdown Jesus.The whole place is offensive and should be burned to the ground along with Regis Philbin.:D Ok so not all my hatred for ND stems from their demeaning the Irish people.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

We are talking about a culture that is dying. In a few years, there will be no one around to speak the languages or know the "old ways", and that is a shame. There are people who resent universities using the mascots, mainly because it becomes a respect issue. It goes with stereotyping. NOT ALL INDIANS WERE WARRIORS. Learn some history.

I'm sorry, I strongly disagree. Many Native languages are being revived and taught to Native children as young as three. More so today than anytime in the past fifty years are Native American languages being taughts and traditions being revived. Even any public universities, including OU, teach a wide variety of Native American languages that not only teach you the language but teaches you part of the heritage. I know because I am taking a Cherokee class at OU this semester. To say that no one will be around to speak any of the languages is absurd.

[tommie15]

Did anyone see the halftime show on ESPNU last night? It was one of the funnier things I have seen in CBB.

The Indian danced around the court for about 5 minutes. After it was over, ESPN kept cutting to all these Illini fans that were crying. Dozens of them.

IT'S A FREAKING MASCOT!!

[Seamus]

Yeah, pride and tradition are so unimportant.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

BTW, OUWxGuesser, there's a greater than zero chance I'll be relocating to Grand Forks in the near future... If I come up, I'll show you my chase credentials (OU SoM '89-'92)...

Marc

By chance are you related to Mike Foster, OU SoM grad. We were classmates.

Eric '82 B.S. Metr.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Did anyone see the halftime show on ESPNU last night? It was one of the funnier things I have seen in CBB.

The Indian danced around the court for about 5 minutes. After it was over, ESPN kept cutting to all these Illini fans that were crying. Dozens of them.

IT'S A FREAKING MASCOT!!

How would you feel if the NCAA arbitrarily made OU drop the Sooners, the poney's and the schooner from our identity? The NCAA is just wrong on this.

[royalfan5]

How would you feel if the NCAA arbitrarily made OU drop the Sooners, the poney's and the schooner from our identity? The NCAA is just wrong on this.
I bet as a Nebraska fan he would think it's kind of funny.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I bet as a Nebraska fan he would think it's kind of funny.

Ooh, you're right...

Change that to Cornhusker, corn boy & dad, corn hats, black shirts and bug eaters....;)

[Scott D]

Ooh, you're right...

Change that to Cornhusker, corn boy & dad, corn hats, black shirts and bug eaters....;)

I'd rather the NCAA force them to go back to being the bugeaters.

[soonerspudman]

We have a high-school near by nicknamed the Savages, they're being forced to change their names, apparently some thought it referenced Indians in a demeaning way. Fooled me, I thought they were referenceing lawyers...

[soonerspudman]

South Carolina "COCKS".....there's HALF the human population!

South Carolina V. Oregon State headlines:

"Beavers take Cocks"
"Cocks stick it to Beavers"
"Beavers too much for Cocks"
"Cocks getting up for Beavers"

I can't imagine anything more insulting, ban them...

[soonerloyal]

Yeah. As someone with Cherokee blood, I know I'm so offended over Native mascots. All that respect for the Warrior culture, the nod to honor and courage, the blatant admiration of brave and victorious history...oh, the friggin' horror.


Homer: By the way, I was being sarcastic.
Marge: Well, duh.

[85Sooner]

So what is going to become of the chicago Blackhawk??????????

[Scott D]

the NCAA has no domain over professional teams. Besides, it's named after an Army unit.

[Seamus]

the NCAA has no domain over professional teams. Besides, it's named after an Army unit.

Per Wikipedia:

The Chicago Black Hawks joined the NHL in 1926 as part of the league's successful foray into United States-based teams. They were founded by coffee tycoon Frederic McLaughlin. Most of the Hawks' original players came from the Portland Rosebuds of the Western Canada Hockey League, which had folded the previous season.

McLaughlin had been a commander with the 333rd Machine Gun Battalion of the 86th Infantry Division during World War I. The division was named after a Native American; Chief Black Hawk, who was a prominent figure in the history of Illinois, and is one of many sports team names using Native Americans as icons.

[Scott D]

Which means that yes, the Blackhawks can hide behind the fact that they were named by the owner after an Army unit. The Washington Redskins can't make the same claim (probably the most legitimate beef there is in regards to a team name in this country imo)

[soonergirlNeugene]

This whole discussion reminds me of something that happened back in 2000 when my family and I made the trip down to Florida to cheer on the Sooners against FSU for the national title. We were making our way across the parking lot to the stadium and enjoying all the pageantry, etc from both sides when some drunken bald middle aged white guy decked out in FSU colors, face paint, and a headdress to boot ran up to a group of Sooner fans ahead of us and performed a mock scalping on one of them.

I found myself instantly incensed at the guy and after he started whooping and tomahawk chopping in our direction I warned the guy that these were Oklahomans he was messing with and while his actions might not raise an eyebrow with a different crowd, the way he was behaving was lampooning traditions that were sacred to many of us, our ancestors having been forcibly removed from these lands long ago. He just stood there dumbstruck and we continued on our way to the stadium.

I was a little shocked at the way it affected me. I'd never really been offended by the use of an Indian mascot by a team or its fans before but to see the way that my people were being caricatured in that manner just really offended me. I was irritated and embarrassed at the same time for the fan, his school, and their football team for associating themselves with that sort of thing. At that point I realized that while there may be nothing inherently wrong with a school wanting to adopt a tribal mascot for itself, if doing so gives rise to the kind of behavior and misrepresentation that I witnessed, it does nobody any favors and really just isn't worth it.

I realize I'll probably get negged for sharing this but since it made up my mind over the issue I thought I'd share it here.

[tommieharris91]

Hmm, I've always heard that most Seminoles and the Seminole tribe find their mascot to be an honor, especially in the way the school represents and uses the mascot.

[Scott D]

two branches of the Seminole tribe...the Florida ones are ok with it, the Oklahoma ones aren't.

[SteelClip49]

speaking of nicknames, I never really understood why Oklahoma went from the Boomers to the Sooners. Hell, the first nickname was the best..the Rough Riders. Also, the horsepigs need to go and we need another Mex.

[soonergirlNeugene]

It's not so much about what the official position is, but the sort of fan behavior such mascots can give rise to. It's almost like giving every drunken idiot free license to make a mockery of a people and its traditions. Painting up your face and running around whooping at people and carrying on like that is similar to a person putting on blackface and running around making fun of black people. Despite whatever respect a university may show on the field for the people it's chosen as its mascot, they still give free license to their fans to run around mocking a race of people. It's pretty disgusting to see it in action and really shouldn't have a place in modern sports.

[Scott D]

darlin, if they could legislate stupid they would.

[SoonerJLB]

As much as I hate the NCAA, the Chief Illiniwek mascot is offensive to many Native Americans and I'm not gonna lose any sleep over this. No other race is used as mascots for teams and organizations besides the Native Americans. How would a white person feel if a team was called the 'Fighting Whities'? or what about the 'Fighting Blackies'?

You are kidding right? What about the Fighting Irish, Celtics, Vikings, Huns?

[mfosterftw]

From the issue dated March 2, 2007
Illinois Lawmaker Seeks to Punish NCAA for Chief Illiniwek's Ouster

By PETER SCHMIDT

For at least one Illinois lawmaker the fight over Chief Illiniwek rages on.

State Rep. Chapin Rose, a Republican and University of Illinois alumnus, is upset that the National Collegiate Athletic Association criticized and punished his alma mater until it gave up its American Indian mascot. He has proposed legislation calling for the association to be charged a 10-percent tax on revenues it earns in the state.

Mr. Rose argues that the low graduation rates among men's basketball players show that the NCAA has abandoned its educational mission and therefore does not deserve its tax-exempt status. "They could care less about the players," he says.

Mr. Rose acknowledges that his tax proposal is directly in response to the Chief Illiniwek controversy. In an interview last week, he said, "If the NCAA had never meddled in the affairs of everyone else, no one would have taken this close a look at the affairs of their own house."
http://chronicle.com
Section: Government & Politics
Volume 53, Issue 26, Page A22

[mfosterftw]

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=158460

NCAA wants documents kept secret
By Dale Wetzel, Associated Press
Published Sunday, March 04, 2007

BISMARCK – North Dakota should be required to keep secret NCAA documents that outline internal discussions of the association’s policy against American Indian sports team nicknames, its attorneys say.

Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem is opposing the requirement, saying it would violate the state’s open records law. A judge who is hearing the University of North Dakota’s lawsuit against the NCAA may not have the authority to order the secrecy the association wants, Stenehjem said.

One of the lawsuit’s arguments is that the NCAA policy, which penalizes the use of the university’s “Fighting Sioux” sports nickname and others deemed “hostile and abusive,” was drafted in violation of the NCAA’s own rules. The association’s wish for secrecy lends new validity to that argument, Stenehjem said.

“A large part of the reason for the lawsuit in the first place is our unhappiness with the non-transparent activities of the NCAA,” Stenehjem said.

“I think, frankly, that I want as much of the information to be brought out into the sunshine as we possibly can.”
The university is challenging an NCAA edict that bars UND from hosting NCAA postseason events as long as it uses the “Fighting Sioux” nickname and a logo that shows the profile of an American Indian warrior.

The NCAA disclosed more than 4,000 pages of documents last month to respond to requests for information by university attorneys.

In a court filing, the NCAA’s lawyers say some documents that UND wants describe internal deliberations by the association’s 20-member executive committee, and should be kept confidential.

The secrecy is needed for committee members “to brainstorm, weigh options, consider alternatives, debate strategies, engage in candid exchanges and otherwise explore solutions to issues facing the association,” the association’s lawyers said in a court filing.

“It would cripple the NCAA’s very fabric – its committee structure – if committee members were chilled in their deliberations by a fear that candid communications would not only be discoverable, but public,” the filing says.

Northeast Central District Judge Lawrence Jahnke has scheduled a hearing Wednesday in Grand Forks to hear attorneys’ arguments on the issue.

Jahnke has already issued an injunction barring the NCAA from penalizing the university for its “Fighting Sioux” nickname until the lawsuit is resolved. A trial is not expected until December at the earliest.

Attorneys in the lawsuit are in the process of demanding information from each other, a procedure called discovery. Stenehjem said attorneys for the two sides met recently to discuss the NCAA’s wish that UND’s attorneys keep many documents confidential that were acquired during discovery.

“I told them I couldn’t do that. First of all, I thought it was bad public policy. Second of all, I don’t think that North Dakota law permits us, by agreement, to close records that otherwise are open records,” the attorney general said.

The NCAA’s executive committee has already rejected a UND appeal that it be allowed to keep its nickname and logo without penalty.

A list of schools that were targeted by the NCAA policy, which was issued in August 2005, have had mixed success in their appeals.

The NCAA decided to let the Florida State Seminoles, the Utah Utes and the Central Michigan Chippewas keep their nicknames without penalty. Appeals by UND, the Bradley Braves and the Newberry College Indians were rejected.

Carthage College, of Kenosha, Wis., changed its nickname from Redmen to Red Men, a reference to the color of the school’s athletics uniforms, and removed feathers from the school’s logo. Its women’s teams are called the Lady Reds.

The University of Illinois was allowed to keep its “Fighting Illini” nickname, but a mascot dressed in buckskins and headdress, named Chief Illiniwek, was banned. The mascot gave its last performance Feb. 21.

[OklahomaRed]

I'm Irish. I'm offended by the media portrayal of all Irishmen as short red headed guys with green hats. I'm offended by the little guy in the trousers at the Notre Dame games. I'm offended by the term "Fighting Irish." Where's the NCAA when you need them ! I cry "unfair" ! :D

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Hell, the first nickname was the best..the Rough Riders.

After USC decided to name themselves after a brand of condoms, we decided we didn't want any part of that.

[mfosterftw]

This has made the rounds a few times, but I thought I'd toss it onto this thread...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b137/moosenb/sue.jpg

[illinisooner]

If enough "Irish" people complained about the Notre Dame nickname, do you think the NCAA would take them seriously?

[chantundefeated]

Mark up trojans and spartans as other races of people that are used as mascots.

[crimson&cream]

Damn I'm glad we don't have any Mexican mascots think about what that would be like....The Border Crosser's or Border Sneaker's or the Santa Ana's, etc Oh the uproar! Animal rights activist will be next protesting animal mascot's ...why not these days it's open season on any mascot that could give rise to some group or Org being upset.
I think people today are bit to touchy- to many thin skin not necessarily only Redskin people getting upset.
Maybe now all the States with Indian names or derived from Indian language will change their state name like Illinois,Okla( we could become Twister or Tornado or Rain State Ole Dust Bowl, etc) and 24 other states------don't want to offend anybody now. However, I've always thought Indian mascots were choosen out of admiration of how fierce the Indians defended their lands, traditions and beliefs-guess many of us are wrong about that?.:pop:

[illinisooner]

Damn I'm glad we don't have any Mexican mascots think about what that would be like....The Border Crosser's or Border Sneaker's or the Santa Ana's, etc Oh the uproar! Animal rights activist will be next protesting animal mascot's ...why not these days it's open season on any mascot that could give rise to some group or Org being upset.
I think people today are bit to touchy- to many thin skin not necessarily only Redskin people getting upset.
Maybe now all the States with Indian names or derived from Indian language will change their state name like Illinois,Okla( we could become Twister or Tornado or Rain State Ole Dust Bowl, etc) and 24 other states------don't want to offend anybody now. However, I've always thought Indian mascots were choosen out of admiration of how fierce the Indians defended their lands, traditions and beliefs-guess many of us are wrong about that?.:pop:

About the Mexican mascots...it's a small example but the Houston MLS team was originally going to be called the "1836", which offended the greater H-town Mexican population I guess. Apparently there was some war with Mexico...some last stand thing in San Antonio? Anyway, the team is now called the Dynamo.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

About the Mexican mascots...it's a small example but the Houston MLS team was originally going to be called the "1836", which offended the greater H-town Mexican population I guess. Apparently there was some war with Mexico...some last stand thing in San Antonio? Anyway, the team is now called the Dynamo.

This was crap! Too many Santa Anna lovers here...This is Houston for cripes sake and "some" (perhaps a vocal one or two) complained that the 1836 was racist. Yeah, Texan's and Tejano's win the war and defeat a general and in part claim sovereignty.

BTW, love the hockey jersey!

I would love to see the NCAA's dirty laundry aired out!

[crimson&cream]

This was crap! Too many Santa Anna lovers here...This is Houston for cripes sake and "some" (perhaps a vocal one or two) complained that the 1836 was racist. Yeah, Texan's and Tejano's win the war and defeat a general and in part claim sovereignty.

BTW, love the hockey jersey!

I would love to see the NCAA's dirty laundry aired out!

Last Sat when the Hispanic's were cellabrating/protesting here in Tulsa they had a sign up that tells you how they really feel "How can you fight terrorism if you can't control your borders"
I couldn't get out of my townhouse complex because of all their demonstartions. No Santa Ana lover here. If they want to be here legally -no problem.
Just don't call some team the "Sombrero's" or they'll probably protest it's derogatory.Thats the way things are nowdays.

[47straight]

But there is a mexican mascot - the san diego padres, which doubles up by making a religious group a mascot too!

[Piware]

Anytime ethnic heritage names are used for nicknames/mascots, people are bound to be offended. That's just the way it is. Being an Illini fan and from Illinois, I've grown up with the Chief and all of the controversy, and I'm tired of it. Now does U of I have to change their nickname to something other than the Fighting Illini or do they have to drop the Fighting and just become the Illini?

The direct blood descendants of the Illini are tired of it too. We have been asking U of I to knock it off for years and they just blew us off. BTW, it wasn't one tribe (aka known as domestic sovereign nations) but two, the National Congress of American Indians and a myriad of other Native American organizations that objected strenuously to the chief.

The Illinois administration wasn't interested in retiring the clown just because it was the right thing to do. When the NCAA pulled the plug, it finally got their attention. Same they weren't that respectful to Native people - they just ignored us AND the Justice Dept.

[Piware]

How would you feel if the NCAA arbitrarily made OU drop the Sooners, the poney's and the schooner from our identity? The NCAA is just wrong on this.

You are wrong, young'un. OU retired our Indian mascot, Little Red, year ago and no one made them do it. OU did it because it is a classy institution and always has been.

[Jello Biafra]

cmon guys.......everything's gonna be all white....



http://www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite?CMP=KNC-G-EF

[Jello Biafra]

i personally like the nova scotian university fatazzed drunkards......

i don't take it personally...at all.

thats me. at times. i don't worry about it.

[whitehelmutsagain]

I DISAGREE WITH ILLINOIS DECISION. I ATTENDED THE 2001-2002 SUGAR BOWL AND WITNESSED THIS MASCOT FIRST HAND.:eek:

[opksooner]

.........speaking of nicknames.......Hell, the first nickname was the best..the Rough Riders.

That name would be banned too. Women's libbers would object, ya know.

[crimson&cream]

But there is a mexican mascot - the san diego padres, which doubles up by making a religious group a mascot too!
Yep but they, San Diego, doesn't have the NCAA to worry about. :pop:
Some people and groups are just to uptight about every little thing ethnic, if there was a mascot the "Honkies" I'd think it was funny.
Piware- are you offended that the state name Illinois is indian?. OH I know Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaats different.

[Piware]

Yep but they, San Diego, doesn't have the NCAA to worry about. :pop:
Some people and groups are just to uptight about every little thing ethnic, if there was a mascot the "Honkies" I'd think it was funny.
Piware- are you offended that the state name Illinois is indian?. OH I know Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaats different.

Let's set the recod straight. No one ever objected to Fighting Illini, the name of the state of Illinois, etc. The objection was to a barefooted clown jumping around in a Hollywood costume that implied that he was representative of a Native nation. Thaaaaaaats different and you don't have a dog in this fight.

On numerous occasions, the descendants of the Illini asked them to stop - U of I refused. Once a year, they would show up in Oklahoma, ask for a tribal endorsement, get turned down and go back home. I will also tell you that the only time the good folks of U of I ever acknowledged, consulted or otherwise contacted the Illini descendants was when they wanted something.
To get rid of them once and for all two tribes issued Tribal Resolutions, which are tribal law, that we did not nor would we ever endorse Chief Illiniwek. That was because the Justice Department was about to pay them a visit and they contended that "not everyone was offended". Tribal resolutions from two different Indian nations let the air out of that balloon.

Trying another tact they went into the whole "honor" thing. That's like saying your mother wears combat boots but we honor her as a veteran. They also argued that the Chief Illiniwek costume was "authentic" because they had asked a Sioux man to make it. Well, that's like asking somebody who lives in Scotland to dress an authentic Australian. The only they have in common is that they are Caucasian.

The bottom line, IMHO, was that this was about money. The University of Illinois had big bucks tied up in the whole mascot gig and they weren't about to go down without a fight. Maybe for some it was about tradition but for the boys behind the big desks it was about cash.

As for your Honkies observation, there is not a chance in the world that would ever happen to either the Caucasian race or any other for that matter so your bravado is pure speculation. But thanks for your sensitivity and insight.

Now - anybody want to talk Sooners football?

[crimson&cream]

But thanks for your sensitivity and insight.:texan:

Now - anybody want to talk Sooners football?[/QUOTE]

I think the next to last sentence gets to the crux of the matter and that is maybe your TO sensitive. I'm not insensitive I just belive that in our ever undying overly persistent pursuit for political correctness we've become to sensitive.
Applying your sensitivity would eliminate the clowns at Rodeo's that in some situations saves lives. Now I know that a stretch, but it so seems in our society today we're thin skinned about almost everything.
If I rememer right the majority of Cherookee's and other Indians didn't want NSU changing from REDMEN to RIVERHAWKS, but the NCAA was breathing dwon on NSU and they caved. Therefore most all NSU students past & present emotions kicked in and will still wear their REDMEN stuff to athletic events in Tahlequah.

[Piware]

But thanks for your sensitivity and insight.:texan:

Now - anybody want to talk Sooners football?

I think the next to last sentence gets to the crux of the matter and that is maybe your TO sensitive. I'm not insensitive I just belive that in our ever undying overly persistent pursuit for political correctness we've become to sensitive.
Applying your sensitivity would eliminate the clowns at Rodeo's that in some situations saves lives. Now I know that a stretch, but it so seems in our society today we're thin skinned about almost everything.
If I rememer right the majority of Cherookee's and other Indians didn't want NSU changing from REDMEN to RIVERHAWKS, but the NCAA was breathing dwon on NSU and they caved. Therefore most all NSU students past & present emotions kicked in and will still wear their REDMEN stuff to athletic events in Tahlequah.[/QUOTE

You still don't get it. It wasn't about a NAME!!!! It was about a mascot at a university that has no ties to Indian anything, especially the Illini. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree and you are right - the rodeo clown is a stretch but thanks for putting Illiniwek in the same category. Don't know that he ever saved anything, i.e. Illinois football. :P

[FaninAma]

FOA.

[Frozen Sooner]

For the record: complaining about anonymous negative reputation after posting quasi-racist ramblings behind an anonymous screen name is ludicrous. Pony some sponsor cash and you can find which anonymous screen name posted the comment. And it wasn't me.

[OU_Sooners75]

For the record: complaining about anonymous negative reputation after posting quasi-racist ramblings behind an anonymous screen name is ludicrous. Pony some sponsor cash and you can find which anonymous screen name posted the comment. And it wasn't me.

I think I am well aware how things can and do work around here.

[Frozen Sooner]

Apparently you weren't.

[BoomerJack]

"You are wrong, young'un. OU retired our Indian mascot, Little Red, year ago and no one made them do it. OU did it because it is a classy institution and always has been."

I disagree. I was enrolled at OU at the time and there was some pressure but it just wasn't very vocal.

[FaninAma]

This board resembles hornfans.com more and more each day.

[CORNholio]

It all just boils down to people over-idenifying with thier race. Some people make a habit of wearing thier race on thier sleeve, keeping it in the forefront of thier conscience. Get over it people. We are all Americans now. That's the real world. If someone chose to honor my heritage (and yes it is an honor for a team to name themselves after you) then I would be flattered. Hyper-sensitivity is killing the nation.

[nativesooner]

The objection was to a barefooted clown jumping around in a Hollywood costume that implied that he was representative of a Native nation

This folks, is what bothers some Native Americans. Not a name, a picture or a helmet sticker. It's not an "honor" to any tribe to see some 19 year old kid with a fake costume and halloween face paint jumping up and down doing a horrible rendition of a sacred tribal dance. OU's Little Red actually did represent his tribe well and was very proud of doing that. He once said that he was sad when OU decided not to let him dance any more, but did understand why they did it.