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View Full Version : How is this not illegal???



jeremy885
2/13/2007, 01:05 PM
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2007-02-13T053517Z_01_N13447905_RTRUKOC_0_US-BOFA-CARD.xml&src=rss&rpc=22


BofA aims new credit card at illegal immigrants: report

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Bank of America Corp. has begun offering credit cards to customers without Social Security numbers, typically illegal immigrants, the Wall Street Journal reported on Tuesday.

In recent years, banks across the country have been offering checking accounts and even mortgages to the nation's fast-growing ranks of undocumented immigrants, most of whom are Hispanic, the paper said, adding these immigrants generally have not been able to get major credit cards.

The new Bank of America card is open to people who lack both a Social Security number and a credit history, as long as they have held a checking account with the bank for three months without an overdraft, the Journal said.

Bank of America tested the program last year at five branches in Los Angeles, and last week expanded it to 51 branches in Los Angeles County, home to the largest concentration of illegal immigrants in the U.S., the Journal said.


The bank hopes to roll out the program nationally later this year, the paper said.

A Bank of America spokesman was not immediately available to comment.

How does this not violate the Patriot Act? I have to give my SSN and a copy of my driver's license to bank in Arkansas, just because my company uses it as a depository account.

tbl
2/13/2007, 01:07 PM
I wonder if this would necessitate changing banks...

jeremy885
2/13/2007, 01:09 PM
I was thinking the same and I really like BOA.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 01:09 PM
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2007-02-13T053517Z_01_N13447905_RTRUKOC_0_US-BOFA-CARD.xml&src=rss&rpc=22



How does this not violate the Patriot Act? I have to give my SSN and a copy of my driver's license to bank in Arkansas, just because my company uses it as a depository account.

Not only the PATRIOT Act, if the depository accounts are interest-bearing it violates all kinds of IRS regulations as well.

Either there's something that the story isn't telling us or BofA's lawyers found a loophole.

85Sooner
2/13/2007, 01:19 PM
Our Corrupt Government does not give a rats a$$ that illegal aliens are afforded more rights and anoninimity than US citizens. I am collecting rope.

Widescreen
2/13/2007, 01:29 PM
Basically, BoA has decided that laws are less important than profits. I hope every single one of these credit accounts default.

JohnnyMack
2/13/2007, 01:32 PM
Basically, BoA has decided that laws are less important than profits. I hope every single one of these credit accounts default.

They don't give a ****, they'll sell off the bad debt to collection agencies and up you and I's interest rates in order to make up the shortfall. Sounds good, doesn't it?

yermom
2/13/2007, 01:34 PM
if the illegal immigrants can do it, the terr'ists can too ;)

i really need another identity...

i wonder how easy it is to ID theft someone without an SSN

OklahomaTuba
2/13/2007, 01:34 PM
Maybe they can change their name to Bank of Mexico??

royalfan5
2/13/2007, 01:44 PM
Maybe they can change their name to Bank of Mexico??
They are just going back to their roots. They started as the Bank of Italy, catering to immigrants.

Dio
2/13/2007, 01:47 PM
Well, we always gripe about the illegals not trying to "fit in"- nothing fits in in America like being up to your *** in debt.

Vaevictis
2/13/2007, 01:51 PM
They don't give a ****, they'll sell off the bad debt to collection agencies and up you and I's interest rates in order to make up the shortfall. Sounds good, doesn't it?

Switch banks and credit card issuers.

I'm in the process of moving all of my stuff to USAA 'cause I'm sick of BoA's ****.

OklahomaTuba
2/13/2007, 01:53 PM
They are just going back to their roots. They started as the Bank of Italy, catering to immigrants.

Ahh.

Well maybe they should go back their then, since they don't mind helping people break American law.

royalfan5
2/13/2007, 01:54 PM
Ahh.

Well maybe they should go back their then, since they don't mind helping people break American law.
I don't think they ever left San Francisco. That's where they started.

jeremy885
2/13/2007, 01:55 PM
if the illegal immigrants can do it, the terr'ists can too ;)

i really need another identity...

i wonder how easy it is to ID theft someone without an SSN

Or bail jumpers, prison escapees, and pretty much anyone who wants to stay under the radar.

Chuck Bao
2/13/2007, 02:07 PM
Credit card companies are evil and should be put down.

They're allowed to charge paying customers usury rates and they don't care if one-fifth go bad. They still make out like bandits.

I pay my bills. I don't want to subsidize those who don't pay their bills or those who couldn't find credit except from a loan shark.

I pay 19% on my credit cards. Anyone pay cheaper rates?

SoonerJack
2/13/2007, 02:13 PM
^ yeah, 0%. I never carry a balance. Thank you very much, Discover, for financing my new receiver from Crutchfield!

JohnnyMack
2/13/2007, 02:14 PM
I pay 19% on my credit cards. Anyone pay cheaper rates?

We have one at 6%.

The days of banks falling all over themselves to give you great rates has gone for now I believe.

OklahomaTuba
2/13/2007, 02:15 PM
The only card I like besides my debit card is my AMEX card.

I have to pay that thing off every month.

GottaHavePride
2/13/2007, 02:47 PM
I don't think they ever left San Francisco. That's where they started.

Yeah, they were talking about that on a History Channel thing about the 1906 earthquake in San Francisco. Most banks got messed up and didn't have any accessible money in the aftermath, but the guy that ran Bank of Italy happened to have a pretty decent supply that he could get to,so he was pretty much the only source of loans in S.F. at first. Made TONS of money, changed the name to BoA as a marketing ploy.

The show also noted that there were virtually no building codes in S.F. until the 1950s, so when the next REALLY big quake hits out there basically half the city is ****ed.

skycat
2/13/2007, 02:56 PM
Switch banks and credit card issuers.

I'm in the process of moving all of my stuff to USAA 'cause I'm sick of BoA's ****.

You should be using a Credit Union anyway.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 02:57 PM
Well, you should.

I have a BofA card, though. Sorry. Nobody else gives Alaska Airlines miles.

Tear Down This Wall
2/13/2007, 02:58 PM
If I may inject a little reality here...The Bank of America is a private business. They can do whatever they please...even if it's stupid.

Personally, I would care less if they weren't a war or terror going on. It's not the Mexicans exploiting this that concerns me, it's the "students" over here from terrorist countries.

I hope this thing blows up into a big sh*t sandwich and BOA has to eat it.

P.S. - I switched from BOA to Chase 18 months ago and no longer get pinched for stupid fees.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 03:03 PM
If I may inject a little reality here...The Bank of America is a private business. They can do whatever they please...even if it's stupid.

Subject to federal regulation they can.

As several have pointed out here, what they're doing seems to contravene provisions of both the PATRIOT Act and IRS regulations.

Tear Down This Wall
2/13/2007, 03:06 PM
Yeah, I suppose. I freely admit, though, that I've never been harassed via the Patriot Act by Chase. Personally, I could care less. If they wanted to see 50 forms of ID, I'd give it to them.

But, people are mad about this because they slip into "damn Mexican immigrants" mode. If you're going to be indignant about it, be indignant about it for real security reasons. Congress didn't produced the Patriot Act because of the lawnmowing and housecleaning Mexicans.

Mjcpr
2/13/2007, 03:08 PM
How much less could you care?

sanantoniosooner
2/13/2007, 03:10 PM
I could care less.

But at that point........I couldn't care less.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 03:10 PM
And that's cool. I agree somewhat on what you're saying. Like I said above, BofA has some lawyers on staff somewhere that I'm sure have figured out how to do this legally.

Mainly I'm curious to see how BofA is getting around the provisions of Patriot that require a primary ID and a verifiable physical address when opening a financial account. I guess they could use Mexican IDs and utility bills. I guess they can get around the IRS stuff by making all of these accounts non-interest-bearing. You're also required to get an OFAC report on every new account and new loan, so I'm wondering how they're verifying OFAC histories.

And thank you for not being a wiener about providing ID when opening accounts. You'd be surprised at how angry people get when I tell them I can't open an account because the physical address they're giving me doesn't match the one on their ID and I ask them to provide documentation of the address.

GottaHavePride
2/13/2007, 03:19 PM
And thank you for not being a wiener about providing ID when opening accounts. You'd be surprised at how angry people get when I tell them I can't open an account because the physical address they're giving me doesn't match the one on their ID and I ask them to provide documentation of the address.

Heh. The one that drove PG nuts was trying to renew her passport. For some reason they would not accept her expired passport as a form of identification and insisted on seeing a birth certificate. Her reaction was "so you want to see a piece of paper with no photo and no security measures that virtually anyone with Photoshop and a laser printer could fake instead of a government-issued I.D. with my picture on it?"

mdklatt
2/13/2007, 03:20 PM
So what are the odd that this story is just a load of BS? Every online article I can find about it simply regurgitates the WSJ story and offers no independent confirmation.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 03:20 PM
Well, a birth certificate should be a certified copy, so there's SOME security involved, but yeah-that's why you should REALLY guard your birth certificate. If an ID thief gets a hold of that one, you're toast.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 03:21 PM
So what are the odd that this story is just a load of BS? Every online article I can find about it simply regurgitates the WSJ story and offers no independent confirmation.

Well, the WSJ is well-known for just making **** up.

Tear Down This Wall
2/13/2007, 03:23 PM
People who get ID-freaked aggravate the crap out of me. I mean, in some situations, yeah, I'd freak. Say, for instance, if the little girl down the street selling girl scout cookies started asking me my social security number and forms of ID, I'd balk. But, you expect a bank to need that information.

Look, here's a dirty little secret: 50% of me despises the IRS, 50% loves it. The despisal comes from the enforcement of the laws they must enforce. But, they didn't pass the laws. The idiots you and I elected did. If you don't like the IRS laws, elect politicians who also hate taxes.

I love the IRS because they provide an important fraud fighting tool in the private and public sector. Many a thieving jackhole has been snared by IRS problems. Al Capone? Enron? Hey, hate the IRS all you want, but they do make sure the "fair share" gets paid...or else.

sanantoniosooner
2/13/2007, 04:09 PM
I love the idea that banks have my thumbprints at their disposal.

I only home Monk can save me when I get framed.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 04:14 PM
Which bank has your thumbprint at their disposal?

I don't keep anyone's thumbprint. On the rare occasion that I take a thumbprint on a check drawn on us, it's not like I keep the thing.

sanantoniosooner
2/13/2007, 04:15 PM
How do I know what you pinheads do with it after I give it to you?

Exactly my point.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 04:22 PM
Dude, I don't do anything with it. I leave that to the guy I sell it to.

No, seriously-we retain an image of the check, of course, but we truly don't do a darn thing with those thumbprints. They don't go in a database or anything. Every so often we'll get one that's good enough on a fraud check that it's helpful to the police, but not THAT often. Mainly it's a good tool for bluffing out fraudulent checks.

sanantoniosooner
2/13/2007, 04:26 PM
yeah, a bank employee with integrity wouldn't do anything bad with it.

unfortunately, I'm not optimistic enough to think they all are.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 04:28 PM
While I understand your misgivings, what do you think someone's going to do with it? I'm not trying to rag on you, I just can't think of what possible use an ink image of your fingerprints might be to someone unless they wanted to frame you for a crime-and there's MILLIONS of easier ways to get your fingerprints than that.

sanantoniosooner
2/13/2007, 04:31 PM
I just don't like it floating around

OK

:D

Vaevictis
2/13/2007, 04:49 PM
While I understand your misgivings, what do you think someone's going to do with it? I'm not trying to rag on you, I just can't think of what possible use an ink image of your fingerprints might be to someone unless they wanted to frame you for a crime-and there's MILLIONS of easier ways to get your fingerprints than that.

Why do you hate paranoia?

Widescreen
2/13/2007, 05:15 PM
Which bank has your thumbprint at their disposal?

I don't keep anyone's thumbprint. On the rare occasion that I take a thumbprint on a check drawn on us, it's not like I keep the thing.
What is the thumbprint used for? My wife cashed a large check at Chase the other day and they wanted her thumbprint. If the banks don't keep it to track fraudulent activity, why take it in the first place? I'm confoosed.

TheUnnamedSooner
2/13/2007, 05:25 PM
What is the thumbprint used for? My wife cashed a large check at Chase the other day and they wanted her thumbprint. If the banks don't keep it to track fraudulent activity, why take it in the first place? I'm confoosed.

They only use the thumbprint if that paticular check your wife cashed was fraudulant to help catch her (they then turn it over to the police). Banks don't keep fingerprints on file, it's too costly.

As far as the Patriot Act thingy, we don't have to get SS#'s as long as they have a passport or other form of ID. In this instance from mexico, we require Matricular ID's. Which don't look too difficult to make. Also, if someone doesn't have a SS#, all we have to have is a copy of the application for one.

TheUnnamedSooner
2/13/2007, 05:27 PM
I just don't like it floating around

OK

:D

So, do you just wear rubber gloves 24 hours a day?

Widescreen
2/13/2007, 05:38 PM
In this instance from mexico, we require Matricular ID's. Which don't look too difficult to make.
Doesn't sound too secure since they hand those out as prizes as you cross the border.

TheUnnamedSooner
2/13/2007, 06:01 PM
Doesn't sound too secure since they hand those out as prizes as you cross the border.


My point exactly. From a bank standpoint, the Patriot Act is not supposed to regulate illegal aliens, but to help detect/find/identify money launderers.

Dio
2/13/2007, 06:34 PM
My point exactly. From a bank standpoint, the Patriot Act is not supposed to regulate illegal aliens, but to help detect/find/identify money launderers.

"I can't believe we're looking up 'money laundering' in the dictionary"

Dio
2/13/2007, 06:34 PM
And, we just ask for fingerprints cause we like watching people turn 3 shades of red.

Frozen Sooner
2/13/2007, 07:23 PM
They only use the thumbprint if that paticular check your wife cashed was fraudulant to help catch her (they then turn it over to the police). Banks don't keep fingerprints on file, it's too costly.

As far as the Patriot Act thingy, we don't have to get SS#'s as long as they have a passport or other form of ID. In this instance from mexico, we require Matricular ID's. Which don't look too difficult to make. Also, if someone doesn't have a SS#, all we have to have is a copy of the application for one.

Exactly. That, and a potential fraudster is just going to walk away if you ask for the thumbprint.

If you don't get the SSN, then do you limit them to non-interest accounts? How do you do 1099-I reporting if there's no SSN?

sanantoniosooner
2/13/2007, 08:21 PM
So, do you just wear rubber gloves 24 hours a day?
The idea of having a document with my signature and fingerprint strikes me differently than leaving a Mountain Dew bottle in a trashcan that you can fetch out.

mdklatt
2/13/2007, 11:58 PM
If you don't get the SSN, then do you limit them to non-interest accounts? How do you do 1099-I reporting if there's no SSN?

From the LA Times:


The banks instead allow the immigrants to establish accounts by using individual taxpayer identification numbers, or ITINs, issued by the Internal Revenue Service.

Frozen Sooner
2/14/2007, 12:01 AM
Fair enough, but how in hell do illegals have ITINs?

I mean, yeah, I'll open an account for someone with a TIN.

jeremy885
2/14/2007, 12:04 AM
You have to file tax returns to get a ITIN from the IRS (I needed one for my wife before she came over). I doubt that many illegals take the risk in actually filling out the paperwork for it.

mdklatt
2/14/2007, 12:17 AM
Fair enough, but how in hell do illegals have ITINs?



I call BS on the WSJ and the lazy media in general again, not for making anything up but for playing up the "illegal" angle. BoA's official story is they are "test-marketing credit cards for Spanish-speaking customers who may not have Social Security numbers." It may be true that most of these people are illegal, but BoA is not specifically targeting illegals. They no doubt don't care if these new customers are illegal or not, but immigration enforcement is not their job.

If we're going to penalize businesses who are only trying to take advantage of a new customer base (capitalism, anyone?), we can hardly bitch about illegals being a "drain on the economy".

SoonerAtKU
2/14/2007, 12:22 AM
...potential fraudster...

Just my note to say I love the term fraudster. Flows so much better than "person attempting fraud" does.

Plus, it reminds me of Napster. Ah, Walker in the days of ethernet, but no DRM.

jeremy885
2/14/2007, 12:23 AM
I call BS on the WSJ and the lazy media in general again, not for making anything up but for playing up the "illegal" angle. BoA's official story is they are "test-marketing credit cards for Spanish-speaking customers who may not have Social Security numbers." It may be true that most of these people are illegal, but BoA is not specifically targeting illegals. They no doubt don't care if these new customers are illegal or not, but immigration enforcement is not their job.

If we're going to penalize businesses who are only trying to take advantage of a new customer base (capitalism, anyone?), we can hardly bitch about illegals being a "drain on the economy".


If they aren't targeting illegals, why go after people without SSNs? If you were born here or have legal status, getting a CC is not a problem. I dated a girl from Hungary when we were both students at OU and she didn't have a problem getting a bank account or CC. The reason why? SHE WAS LEGAL.

mdklatt
2/14/2007, 12:24 AM
I dated a girl from Hungary when we were both students at OU and she didn't have a problem getting a bank account or CC. The reason why? SHE WAS LEGAL.

She had a SSN?

jeremy885
2/14/2007, 12:29 AM
She had a ITIN and then a SSN before she left in 2005. The furtherest she got paperwork wise was a H1-b, before she decided to go home for personal reasons.

mdklatt
2/14/2007, 12:30 AM
She had a ITIN

Without being illegal....

jeremy885
2/14/2007, 12:33 AM
yeah, she was on a student visa, graduated, used the year of practical training, and then had an H1-B until she left.

mdklatt
2/14/2007, 12:43 AM
yeah, she was on a student visa, graduated, used the year of practical training, and then had an H1-B until she left.

So then it's possible for somebody who only has an ITIN to be here legally, and wouldn't it be nice if they could get a credit card?

Frozen Sooner
2/14/2007, 12:47 AM
I guess what's confusing me here is why is it a big deal for someone with a TIN of any sort to obtain an account? They've been able to do so for years. I've opened any number of them based on student visas.

I generally won't lend to them, but our credit policies are a bit tighter than most.

jeremy885
2/14/2007, 12:47 AM
Yeah, but banks have been marketing to them for years. The % of legals that I knew in school and the company I worked for in OKC (it had a 90% international workforce) had bank accounts and CCs in the same % as US citizens.

mdklatt
2/14/2007, 01:00 AM
I guess what's confusing me here is why is it a big deal for someone with a TIN of any sort to obtain an account? They've been able to do so for years.

But years ago, the media couldn't have exploited that for more readers and ratings. "Wedge issues" are a ciruclation department's best friends.

Frozen Sooner
2/14/2007, 01:06 AM
You know, Wells Fargo used to set up a deal that was specifically targeted to "undocumented workers." They never really said as much, but the entire operation was concentrated along the Rio Grande.

What they did was issue plastic cards to people without bank accounts, then allow them to use the cards to cash checks at ATMs that could read printed payroll checks for a hefty service fee. No, I don't know the specific mechanics, just I remember reading about this in the corporate newsletter when I worked at the stagecoach.

Wonder how that's working now?

TheUnnamedSooner
2/14/2007, 08:55 AM
Exactly. That, and a potential fraudster is just going to walk away if you ask for the thumbprint.

If you don't get the SSN, then do you limit them to non-interest accounts? How do you do 1099-I reporting if there's no SSN?

Usually, but we do open a lot of Savings accounts for them. We don't report 1099-I if the interest earned is less than $100 for the year. For CD's we do have to have some kind of tax-id #. Same as you, our lending is pretty strict

Gandalf_The_Grey
2/14/2007, 09:39 AM
I would think the only problem would be if they hit 7000$ in their account, then the Bank Secrecy Act would get them so we will get rich drug dealing illegals at least ;)

Frozen Sooner
2/14/2007, 12:33 PM
Usually, but we do open a lot of Savings accounts for them. We don't report 1099-I if the interest earned is less than $100 for the year. For CD's we do have to have some kind of tax-id #. Same as you, our lending is pretty strict

I thought 1099-I triggering was $10.

TheUnnamedSooner
2/14/2007, 01:24 PM
I thought 1099-I triggering was $10.

I'm not sure what the actual law or requirement is, I just know what we report.

Stoop Dawg
2/14/2007, 04:07 PM
Yeah, but banks have been marketing to them for years.

So why is it so shocking that BoA is marketing to them now?