Good Morning: Original "separation of church and state" dissenter arrives here

[Okla-homey]

Feb. 5, 1631: Roger Williams arrives in America

On this day, 376 years ago, Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island and an important American religious leader, arrives in Boston in the Massachusetts Bay Colony from England.

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/6974/roglandingwilliams8km.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Feb. 5, 1631, Roger Williams first sets foot on American soil

Williams, a Puritan, worked as a teacher before serving briefly as a colorful pastor at Plymouth and then at Salem. Within a few years of his arrival, he alarmed the Puritan theocracy of Massachusetts by speaking out against the right of civil authorities to punish religious dissension and to expropriate Indian land simply because the Indians had been deemed "heathens" and thus not possesed of any property rights.

Williams' dissent is the first documented significant opposition to the enforcement of church law by the courts in what would someday become the United States. It should be noted that Williams did not have a problem with the notion of a "state religion," nor did he take issue with state funding of religion. He just couldn't abide religious law being the stuff of criminal proceedings. IOW, he did not approve of religion being stuffed down peoples' throats under penalty of criminal punishment.

In October 1635, the Puritan leadership of Massachusetts had had enough of Williams' badgering and his unconventional notion that the state shouldn't be involved in enforcing church law. Williams was "banished" from the Massachusetts Bay Colony by order of the General Court.

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After his banishment from Massachusetts, Williams was forced to wander in the winter New England wilderness. Encountering friendly Narragansett Indians, they allowed him to shelter among them in what would become the Rhode Island colony

After leaving Massachusetts, Williams, assisted by his new Narragansett Indian friends, established a settlement at the junction of two rivers near Narragansett Bay, located in present-day Rhode Island.

Williams declared the settlement open to "all those seeking freedom of conscience and the removal of the church from civil matters," and many dissatisfied Puritans came. Taking the success of the venture as a sign from God, Williams named the community "Providence."

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/9801/rogrwill8fb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Williams monument in Providence. Founded by Williams, the smallest state also has the longest name. Rhode Island's official name is "The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations."

Among those who found a haven in the religious and political refuge of the Rhode Island Colony were Anne Hutchinson--like Williams, exiled from Massachusetts for religious reasons--and some of the first Jews to settle in North America, as well as the Quakers. In Providence, Roger Williams also founded the first Baptist church in America and edited the first dictionary of Indian languages.

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I've always thought the Rhode Island state flag was elegantly simple and beautiful. The anchor has dual significance. Apart from its maritime connotation, it is also used because, at least since the 16th century, the anchor has been symbolic of the concept of hope.

So, from a hillbilly who has been a Baptist since nine months before he was born, here's to you "Mr First Baptist in the Western Hemisphere".

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Roger Williams died in 1687 and is buried in Providence.

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[sooneron]

Newport is a great town. That is all I have to say about the ocean state.

[usmc-sooner]

if you read papers written by some of the constitutions writers later, they say that America should strive to stay a Christian nation. People have however since twisted seperation of church and state into something it was never intended to do.

[royalfan5]

if you read papers written by some of the constitutions writers later, they say that America should strive to stay a Christian nation. People have however since twisted seperation of church and state into something it was never intended to do.
The problem with America is that it should have been a Lutheran Nation. Do you see the Swedes, Danes, Fins, and Norewegians have people run around all uppity.

[Frozen Sooner]

if you read papers written by some of the constitutions writers later, they say that America should strive to stay a Christian nation. People have however since twisted seperation of church and state into something it was never intended to do.

That's interesting, because in official documents later they wrote that the United States is not a Christian nation.

[def_lazer_fc]

why do some people feel the need for the country they live in to be a christian one? are they that insecure in their faith? last time i checked, you could still go to church, still read the bible, still pray, and still pretty much worship however you like. just b/c you cant do it on state property, have organized prayer in school, and some guy in some small town doesn't want "one nation under god" in the pledge, does NOT mean you are being persecuted. move to a middle eastern country and praise jesus there. changing a christmas parade to a holiday parade would be the least of your concerns.

[TopDawg]

if you read papers written by some of the constitutions writers later, they say that America should strive to stay a Christian nation. People have however since twisted seperation of church and state into something it was never intended to do.

I'm not sure what papers you're referring to (not saying they don't exist), but saying "American should strive to be/stay a Christian nation" is A LOT different than saying "America's government should stive to be/stay a Christian government."

[OklahomaTuba]

That's interesting, because in official documents later they wrote that the United States is not a Christian nation.
And in documents written even later than that, it said that it is.

Of course, this is like saying this is not an english speaking nation.

[Frozen Sooner]

And in documents written even later than that, they wrote that it is.

Really? In which official documents do any of the framers specifically refer to the United States as a Christian nation? Official documents, mind you, not letters and personal documents.

[mdklatt]

And in documents written even later than that, they wrote that it is.

And the seperation of church and state interpretation of the Supreme Court came even later than that. Huh.

[OklahomaTuba]

Really? In which official documents do any of the framers specifically refer to the United States as a Christian nation? Official documents, mind you, not letters and personal documents.

Does a pre-amble of a founding states constitution work??


Constitution of the State of Massachusetts 1780, stated:

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence [an opportunity to form a compact]; ... and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, ... [establish this Constitution]. ¹

The Governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to his office, unless, at the time of his election ... he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion. ²

Chapter VI, Article I [All persons elected to State office or to the Legislature must] make and subscribe the following declaration, viz. "I, _______, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth." ³

Part 1, Article II It is the right, as well as the duty, of all men in society, publicly, and at states seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the Great Creator and Preserver of the Universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and seasons, most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience. 4

Part I, Article III And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law. 5



Again, while the government may not be Christian, the states and the people are.

Kind of like speaking english.

[SicEmBaylor]

Does a pre-amble of a founding states constitution work??

Now you've opened up an entirely different can of constitutional worms and I'm not sure you realize it.

[OklahomaTuba]

Now you've opened up an entirely different can of constitutional worms and I'm not sure you realize it.

;)

[mdklatt]

Does a pre-amble of a founding states constitution work??


And why exactly are we beholden to political realities from more than 200 years ago?

[OklahomaTuba]

found this interesting. (sorry for the copy and paste)



Alabama 1901: We the people of the State of Alabama , invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.
Alaska 1956: We, the people of Alaska , grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.
Arizona 1911: We, the people of the State of Arizona , grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution…
Arkansas 1874: We, the people of the State of Arkansas , grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government…
California 1879: We, the People of the State of California , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.
Colorado 1876: We, the people of Colorado , with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.
Connecticut 1818: The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.
Delaware 1897: Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshiping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.
Florida 1885: We, the people of the State of Florida , grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution…
Georgia 1777: We, the people of Georgia , relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution…
Hawaii 1959: We , the people of Hawaii , Grateful for Divine Guidance .. Establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889: We, the people of the State of Idaho , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.
Illinois 1870: We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil l, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
Indiana 1851: We, the People of the State of Indiana , grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.
Iowa 1857: We, the People of the State of Iowa , grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution.
Kansas 1859: We, the people of Kansas , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891: We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties…
Louisiana 1921: We, the people of the State of Louisiana , grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.
Maine 1820: We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity .. And imploring His aid and direction.
Maryland 1776: We, the people of the state of Maryland , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty…
Massachusetts 1780: We…the people of Massachusetts , acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe .. In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction…
Michigan 1908: We, the people of the State of Michigan , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.
Minnesota 1857: We, the people of the State of Minnesota , grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:
Mississippi 1890: We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Al mighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.
Missouri 1845: We, the people of Missouri , with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .. Establish this Constitution.
Montana 1889: We, the people of Montana , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution…
Nebraska 1875: We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom . Establish this Constitution.
Nevada 1864: We the people of the State of Nevada , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution…
New Hampshire 1792: Part I. Art. I. Sec. V . Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.
New Jersey 1844: We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
New Mexico 1911: We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty…
New York 1846: We, the people of the State of New York , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.
North Carolina 1868: We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those…
North Dakota 1889: We, the people of North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain…
Ohio 1852: We the people of the state of Ohio , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common…
Oklahoma 1907: Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty … establish this.
Oregon 1857: Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences…
Pennsylvania 1776: We, the people of Pennsylvania , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance…
Rhode Island 1842: We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing…
South Carolina 1778: We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
South Dakota 1889: We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties…
Tennessee 1796: Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience…
Texas 1845: We the People of the Republic of Texas , acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.
Utah 1896: Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.
Vermont 1777: Whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man…
Virginia 1776: Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other…
Washington 1889: We the People of the State of Washington , grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution…
West Virginia 1872: Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God…
Wisconsin 1848: We, the people of Wisconsin , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility…
Wyoming 1890: We, the people of the State of Wyoming , grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution.


I think we can agree at least, this is hardly a secular nation.

[OklahomaTuba]

Article 22 of the Constitution of Delaware (1776) required all officers to profess:

"faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scripture of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

[OklahomaTuba]

And why exactly are we beholden to political realities from more than 200 years ago?

The ACLU keeps asking that question as well.

Oh well, history sucks sometimes.

[TUSooner]

The PRINCIPLE of separation is great, I don't want Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson ruling over me any more than I want some Ayatollah Assahollah doing it.
But the application of the principle has gone off track.

I think it's pretty well established the Framers' concerns about religion were limited, and they meant only to ensure that the new Gubment would not enforce the collection money for any church, and that no church could appoint gubment officials or use the gubment to punish folks for breaking church rules. I think we got off track when the SCT decided that a person had standing to sue under the 1st Amendment if the "injury" was ony emotional -- or something like that. :confused: Law school was a long time ago; maybe law student whiz-kid (whiz-pop?) Homey is more up to date with what I'm thinking of.

[Okla-homey]

The PRINCIPLE of separation is great, I don't want Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson ruling over me any more than I want some Ayatollah Assahollah doing it.
But the application of the principle has gone off track.

I think it's pretty well established the Framers' concerns about religion were limited, and they meant only to ensure that the new Gubment would not enforce the collection money for any church, and that no church could appoint gubment officials or use the gubment to punish folks for breaking church rules. I think we got off track when the SCT decided that a person had standing to sue under the 1st Amendment if the "injury" was ony emotional -- or something like that. :confused: Law school was a long time ago; maybe law student whiz-kid (whiz-pop?) Homey is more up to date with what I'm thinking of.

You've framed the controversy nicely. The modern Court has broadened the notion of separation, specifically government endorsement of a particular faith, to where we are now.

I'm convinced the Establishment clause was included in the "greatest document yet devised for the government of mankind" because the framers did not want Congress to establish a state religion, as was the case in Merry Olde Officially Anglican England.

Since 1789, we've arrived at a place where anything government (at any level) does which smacks of official government endorsement of religious expression in the public arena is a no-go.

The leading Establishment clause case is Agostini v. Felton, 521 U.S. 203 (1997). By a 5-4 decision, SCOTUS announced a new Establishment clause three-pronged test to decide whether governmental aid in any form advances a particular religion: 1) does it result in indoctrination? or 2) define the recipient of the governmental aid in terms of religion? or 3) create an excessive entanglement with religion?

In short, this is why the schoolkids themselves can have a prayer if they lead it, and no one feels pressured to join in. Alternatively, if the coach, who is a school official, and therefore an agent of the state says, "huddle-up men we're going to have a prayer now," that violates the first prong of the test. That's also what allows bible clubs/studies in public schools if the kids form and administer them and no one feels pressured to join.

Prong #2 means the gubmint can't decide to give cash to parochial schools or churches, even if they are engaged in worthy work to help out the less fortunate.

Prong #3 is, as I'm sure you recognize, pretty squishy. "Excessive entanglement" is in essence a pretty subjective notion. IMHO, but it can easily be used as a hammer to smackdown a broad range of even limited government involvement with religious groups. It can also be used as a hammer to keep a Nativity scene off public property at Christmas, unless of course, there is also a menorrah, kwanzaa candlabra, statue of Buddha and a Islamic crescent situated prominently nearby.;)

[BigRedJed]

Dangit. He beat my great, great, great, great... ...grandfather and his siblings here by two years. Now we're just a footnote. Thanks a lot, Roger.

[Frozen Sooner]

Does a pre-amble of a founding states constitution work??



Again, while the government may not be Christian, the states and the people are.

Kind of like speaking english.

Yep. Didn't think you had anything.

Reread the question and answer it please.

While you're at it, explain why this particular passage-which was approved by the Senate unanimously and published widely in the papers of the time with virtually no comment-means that the United States was a Christian nation.


As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

[TopDawg]

In short, this is why the schoolkids themselves can have a prayer if they lead it, and no one feels pressured to join in. Alternatively, if the coach, who is a school official, and therefore an agent of the state says, "huddle-up men we're going to have a prayer now," that violates the first prong of the test. That's also what allows bible clubs/studies in public schools if the kids form and administer them and no one feels pressured to join.


In order for it to result in indoctrination, there have to be people present who are not doctrinated, right? You can't indoctrinate someone who is already doctrinated, right? If so, is it okay for a Christian coach to say a Christian prayer to a team made up of Christians...or, for that matter, okay for a Muslim coach to say an Islamic prayer to a team made up of Muslims?

Isn't the idea less about keeping religion out of the schools (or government) than about making sure that insubordinates are not subjected to their superiors' religious beliefs (and practice thereof) without recourse?

I probably didn't do a good job of expressing that, but do you catch my drift?

[Jerk]

I don't think I could make an argument that we were founded as a "Christian nation."

However, I don't think that it would be too much of a stretch to say that we were "founded under God."

That's all I've got to say about that

[usmc-sooner]

In order for it to result in indoctrination, there have to be people present who are not doctrinated, right? You can't indoctrinate someone who is already doctrinated, right? If so, is it okay for a Christian coach to say a Christian prayer to a team made up of Christians...or, for that matter, okay for a Muslim coach to say an Islamic prayer to a team made up of Muslims?

Isn't the idea less about keeping religion out of the schools (or government) than about making sure that insubordinates are not subjected to their superiors' religious beliefs (and practice thereof) without recourse?

I probably didn't do a good job of expressing that, but do you catch my drift?

I think you make a good point. My objection would be that nobody is subjecting insubordinates to their superiors beliefs. (as far as I know) I grew up in rural conservative Oklahoma, we had a girl can't remember her religion but for some reason she was allowed to not say the pledge, and other stuff that had anything to do with religion.

I think you hit on the very point of church vs state. You can't force religion on anyone but it was obviously not meant to keep all religion from state or government.

TD, Mike I wish I had a link to the papers I was refering to. It was so long ago and the class I was in was taught by a pretty liberal guy who disagreed with the content of the paper but was positive that it was the intent of the writers of the constituion.

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't think I could make an argument that we were founded as a "Christian nation."

However, I don't think that it would be too much of a stretch to say that we were "founded under God."

That's all I've got to say about that

I'd be willing to buy the argument that the United States was not intended to be a Christian nation but that the founders themselves were Christian and much of their thought was influenced by Christian doctrine. I'd even be willing to buy the argument that the United States, while not a Christian nation, is a nation of Christians (for the most part.)

[SicEmBaylor]

the United States as a single entity was not founded as a Christian nation. That wasn't the point. The states collectively unified into what we call the "United States" did so based on political not religious reasons.

HOWEVER, the individual states are another story. The early leaders of some of most of the states fully intended for those states to be built upon a Christian foundation. The nation as a whole though was not nor should it be.

[BigRedJed]

...I grew up in rural conservative Oklahoma, we had a girl can't remember her religion but for some reason she was allowed to not say the pledge, and other stuff that had anything to do with religion...
The girl was probably a Jehovah's Witness. They don't celebrate secular or religious holidays, birthdays, or say the pledge of allegience, ascribing all higher power to God and his governement. If I remember right, they also take literally the commandment against graven images and consider the flag to be such a thing (visual representation of a higher power).

Don't think she got to refuse to say the pledge due to the good nature of her fellow Americans, though. Back in the '40s they were expelled from school for not reciting it, and had to sue to be allowed to attend public schools without doing it. Remember, they weren't suing to get the schools to stop doing the pledge; only to be allowed to take a pass on it themselves. I think that's an important difference, and one I think is appropriate. They also have sued to keep their kids from being forced to participate in Christmas pageants, etc., but to my knowledge didn't ever try to get everyone else to stop, unlike a lot of the ACLU lawsuits these days.

After they prevailed they then encouraged their children to either remain seated or to stand respectfully while others were doing it. I think the refusal to celebrate Christmas added to the popular perception that they don't believe in Jesus Christ or consider themselves Christian, which is false, BTW.

And before you ask, no, I'm not one, but I have a close family member who is. I also have LDS family members. I think my family must be a little odd.

[Frozen Sooner]

the United States as a single entity was not founded as a Christian nation. That wasn't the point. The states collectively unified into what we call the "United States" did so based on political not religious reasons.

HOWEVER, the individual states are another story. The early leaders of some of most of the states fully intended for those states to be built upon a Christian foundation. The nation as a whole though was not nor should it be.

Let me ask you a question:

If a group of 50 people group together, and all 50 are Christians, is the group by definition Christian?

[usmc-sooner]

The girl was probably a Jehovah's Witness. They don't celebrate secular or religious holidays, birthdays, or say the pledge of allegience, ascribing all higher power to God and his governement. If I remember right, they also take literally the commandment against graven images and consider the flag to be such a thing (visual representation of a higher power).

Don't think she got to refuse to say the pledge due to the good nature of her fellow Americans, though. Back in the '40s they were expelled from school for not reciting it, and had to sue to be allowed to attend public schools without doing it. Remember, they weren't suing to get the schools to stop doing the pledge; only to be allowed to take a pass on it themselves. I think that's an important difference, and one I think is appropriate. They also have sued to keep their kids from being forced to participate in Christmas pageants, etc., but to my knowledge didn't ever try to get everyone else to stop, unlike a lot of the ACLU lawsuits these days.

After they prevailed they then encouraged their children to either remain seated or to stand respectfully while others were doing it. I think the refusal to celebrate Christmas added to the popular perception that they don't believe in Jesus Christ or consider themselves Christian, which is false, BTW.

And before you ask, no, I'm not one, but I have a close family member who is. I also have LDS family members. I think my family must be a little odd.

I think you're right. I think she was a JW. Hell I was a little kid, I just know she wasn't treated badly.

Way back in the day when I was a Cpl of Marines my Lt. was a Morman, I didn't agree with his religion but I respected the hell out of him as a man and a Marine.

[SicEmBaylor]

Let me ask you a question:

If a group of 50 people group together, and all 50 are Christians, is the group by definition Christian?

Ostensibly. Though that doesn't mean they grouped together just because they are Christian.

[usmc-sooner]

Let me ask you a question:

If a group of 50 people group together, and all 50 are Christians, is the group by definition Christian?

Mike

the definition of Christian is found in the Bible. It doesn't matter what you claim, it matters how you live. There are a lot of people who claim to be Christian that aren't.

[Frozen Sooner]

Ostensibly. Though that doesn't mean they grouped together just because they are Christian.

But that's exactly the point.

A group of 50 people who band together to watch OU Football isn't a Christian group, no matter how many of the 50 are Christian. At least not in my estimation they aren't.

[Frozen Sooner]

Mike

the definition of Christian is found in the Bible. It doesn't matter what you claim, it matters how you live. There are a lot of people who claim to be Christian that aren't.

I know that, and you know that. That wasn't really my point, though.

[SicEmBaylor]

But that's exactly the point.

A group of 50 people who band together to watch OU Football isn't a Christian group, no matter how many of the 50 are Christian. At least not in my estimation they aren't.

And I agree, going back to my original point that the United States itself was neither built as a "Christian nation" nor is it one in fact.

[TopDawg]

I think you make a good point. My objection would be that nobody is subjecting insubordinates to their superiors beliefs. (as far as I know) I grew up in rural conservative Oklahoma, we had a girl can't remember her religion but for some reason she was allowed to not say the pledge, and other stuff that had anything to do with religion.

I think you hit on the very point of church vs state. You can't force religion on anyone but it was obviously not meant to keep all religion from state or government.

TD, Mike I wish I had a link to the papers I was refering to. It was so long ago and the class I was in was taught by a pretty liberal guy who disagreed with the content of the paper but was positive that it was the intent of the writers of the constituion.

I just think marriage of church and state could open up a bad can of worms. So we decide to be a Christian nation. Okay. What does that mean? Who decides what set of Christian beliefs we're going to use? They're certainly not all the same. Will it be illegal for women to preach or illegal to KEEP women from preaching? etc...

[SoonerInKCMO]

If you idjit hillbillies would finally wise up and realize that the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the one true faith, we would be a hell of a lot better off.

[SleestakSooner]

It seems to me the point of all this is seperation is a good concept and even though it causes issues (like what to call the winter solstace parade) it is something we should all strive to maintain.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are a perfect example of why I say this. They ARE Christians. As Christians they are often lumped in with the rest. But they don't worship nearly in the same manner as 90% of other christians.

Let's say the religious right do win out and America adopts an official church of the state. Which Christian version would it be? Personally I can't think of a better way to start another civil war in this country.

[BigRedJed]

I'm a member of this church (http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=104426420&MyToken=e60d68ae-848e-476b-a88a-23fe970419fb), FWIW. Join us. Everybody's welcome!

[BigRedJed]

We even have our own T-shirt! (http://www.flaminglips.com/store/detail.php?section=home&product=ivan_t)

http://www.flaminglips.com/store/productDetails/ivan_t/mainImage.jpghttp://www.flaminglips.com/store/productDetails/ivan_t/mainImage2.jpg

[OklahomaTuba]

Yep. Didn't think you had anything.

Reread the question and answer it please.

While you're at it, explain why this particular passage-which was approved by the Senate unanimously and published widely in the papers of the time with virtually no comment-means that the United States was a Christian nation.

See the point made by sic Mike. I was to busy today to try to make it.

My point at the beginning was that this is a Christian nation, as much as this is an english speaking nation.

And to say 12 of the nations 13 founding colonies being officially Christian somehow doesn't mean anything is digging at best.

[OklahomaTuba]

Let's say the religious right do win out and America adopts an official church of the state. Which Christian version would it be? Personally I can't think of a better way to start another civil war in this country.

The "Religious Right" doesn't want an offical state Church. What we want is simply have the full rights that the constitution has given us, which is freedom of religion, instead of being sued and harassed legally by neo-facist anti-Christian atheist hate groups such as the ACLU.

And if the trend of banning God and the judeo-Christian traditions and history this nation was founded on continues by the "progressives" and leftists, I think you will see a backlash, and even more so considering the holy war we now find ourselves in against radical islam.

[OklahomaTuba]

Hmmm...

May 16, 1776, the Continental Congress appointed an official national day of fasting and prayer for the colonies:

The Congress....Desirous...to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God's superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely...on His aid and direction...Do earnestly recommend Friday, the 17th day of May be observed by the colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewailed our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease God's righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain this pardon and forgiveness.

[SicEmBaylor]

I don't want to offend anyone, but it scares the bejebees out of me when evangelical Christians start talking politics.

[OklahomaTuba]

And of course, one of my fav quotes by one of our founding fathers..

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.


Patrick Henry

I may have just found my new sig ;)

[OklahomaTuba]

I don't want to offend anyone, but it scares the bejebees out of me when evangelical Christians start talking politics.

Any particular reason??

Seems many of the founding fathers and the founding states are saying the exact same thing.

[def_lazer_fc]

it scares me too. i know this is going to sound bad, but.....evangelicals are sheep. whatever the master/preacher tells them to do, they will do. and in great numbers. thats why i dont like them messing with politics. they see that one politician is against, lets say abortion, and its "we aint voting for that guy". do they look at the other issues? no. they see the one "wedge" issue and lay the hammer down, all the while voting for some prick, who oddly enough, hates homosexuals, but is one behind closed doors. look at the record. its all homophobes and pedophiles. the ones they hate the most are the ones that are elected.

[Okla-homey]

it scares me too. i know this is going to sound bad, but.....evangelicals are sheep. whatever the master/preacher tells them to do, they will do. and in great numbers. thats why i dont like them messing with politics. they see that one politician is against, lets say abortion, and its "we aint voting for that guy". do they look at the other issues? no. they see the one "wedge" issue and lay the hammer down, all the while voting for some prick, who oddly enough, hates homosexuals, but is one behind closed doors. look at the record. its all homophobes and pedophiles. the ones they hate the most are the ones that are elected.

Well, I understand what you're saying, and there may be some who do as you say, but I'm an evangelical (i.e. Southern Baptist) and I do my own thinking and vote the way I choose. FWIW, in 47 years on the planet, I have never heard any of my pastors tell me or anyone else how to vote. I have heard them say we should vote our conscience.

Finally, so far, I'm thinking Rudy may be my guy in '08 if he decides to mount a campaign. I disagree with him on abortion and guns, but I agree with his professed policy on national security and for me, that's the most important issue facing America for the foreseeable future.

[TopDawg]

The "Religious Right" doesn't want an offical state Church. What we want is simply have the full rights that the constitution has given us, which is freedom of religion, instead of being sued and harassed legally by neo-facist anti-Christian atheist hate groups such as the ACLU.


I love freedom of religion. It's part of what makes this country so great. But freedom FROM religion is another part of what makes this country so great. And that's what the ACLU, as misguided as some of their efforts are, is trying to preserve.

Has the ACLU ever sued YOU for practicing your freedom of religion? They're not after individuals expressing their freedom of religion, they're after governments supporting their religious beliefs over others.

Some of you wail and gnash teeth over the government spending your tax dollars to support "lazy people", but then don't understand why non-Christians get upset when their tax dollars go to support Christian beliefs or practicies.

[TopDawg]

Well, I understand what you're saying, and there may be some who do as you say, but I'm an evangelical (i.e. Southern Baptist) and I do my own thinking and vote the way I choose.

I like the distinction Brian McLaren makes in his book A Generous Orthodoxy. I don't have it on hand so I won't try to describe it, but he uses the term "evangelical" (little e) for some and "Evangelical" (big e) for others.

[BigRedJed]

Apparently nobody's impressed by the fact that my family arrived in 1633. Or by the Church of Michael Ivins' Hair.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Or by the Church of Michael Ivins' Hair.

I want me one of those shirts.

Let us pray...

[mdklatt]

The "Religious Right" doesn't want an offical state Church. What we want is simply have our religious dogma enacted into law.

:pop:

[Okieflyer]

The Jehovah's Witnesses are a perfect example of why I say this. They ARE Christians. As Christians they are often lumped in with the rest. But they don't worship nearly in the same manner as 90% of other christians.

No there aren't christians. Ask one. That would be offensive to them.

But back the other subject. I agree that the church should not be running the country. That's from a Religious Right Winged Extremist. But they shouldn't allow all of this running around the aclu does, trying to remove every hint of religion from society just because it's "on public land".

If your offended by the 10 commandments...good!


The "Religious Right" doesn't want an offical state Church. What we want is simply have our religious dogma enacted into law.

That's funny mdklatt. Typical liberal response when laws have any kind moral position to it's must be religious dogma. :rolleyes: I mean hey you can't murder someone, but you can tell lies (except under oath), isn't that enough?

[yermom]

No there aren't christians. Ask one. That would be offensive to them.


JWs consider themselves Christians, now they might disagree with you on whether or not other religions are...

Tuba, what exactly has the ACLU tried to do that infringes on the way you practice your religion?

[BigRedJed]

Seriously. They absolutely, 100% consider themselves Christians. In fact, they refer to themselves as TRUE Christians, supporting what Sleestak said. They consider themselves the only true adherants to the teachings of Christ himself and the first-century Christians. They believe the Romans, and eventually the Roman Catholic Church that grew from the teachings of the early Christians, bastardized the faith.

The main difference you'll see between JWs and other Christians is their God-centric beliefs. They do not believe in a Holy Trinity in the same way many Christians do (ie, that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same being). They believe that Jesus was a separate being, God's favorite archangel and only son, but still a subordinate to God. They believe he was the Messiah, sent to save mankind (or at least those who repent).

The other major difference is that they believe the majority of people won't go to Heaven, but that God intends to restore the earth to his original purpose, a paradise home for a sin-free and obedient mankind. They believe that Satan exists, was originally also an Angel who got twisted and power-hungry, and that he will be destroyed by God and Jesus at the time that they restore the earth to its original purpose. They believe that only a small select group of humans will go to Heaven, and that they will serve as intermediaries between God and mankind.

They also believe it's their God-given duty to convert other people to this way of thinking, to "save" them.

Other than that, they are pretty much run-of-the mill evangelical Christians. They don't believe in premarital or extramarital sex, smoking, illegal drugs, stealing, lying... ...in fact if you ever get a chance to hire one for a position that requires trust you should probably do it. They take the lying, stealing thing REALLY serious.

They do, contrary to popular belief, drink alcohol (in moderation). They drink caffeine (it's the Mormons who don't). They dance. They don't speak in tongues. They don't do faith healings.

But to say that they don't consider themselves to be Christians, or would be offended by the moniker, shows an ABSOLUTE ignorance of their beliefs. To sum up, they consider themselves to be Christian. They just don't consider THE REST OF YOU to be Christians.

Next post, I'll explain LDS beliefs. Believe me, I've been dragged into plenty of discussions about both because of having close family members who were devout in both faiths, and have even attended many, many church meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses, when I was a kid.

BTW, I was raised Methodist.

And, I was also kidding about explaining Mormonism.

[royalfan5]

My Mormon officemate thought my joke about Mormons taking up amway because of their mission experience was funny. Either way, the Mormons should be running this country.

[BigRedJed]

And before you come back at me all huffy about me saying that your statement belies an ignorance of their beliefs, I suggest you check out their website (http://www.watchtower.org/). Do a search on the word "Christian." YWIA.

[jeremy885]

And before you come back at me all huffy about me saying that your statement belies an ignorance of their beliefs, I suggest you check out their website (http://www.watchtower.org/). Do a search on the word "Christian." YWIA.

#2 on this list is interesting

Negotiating a Reasonable BRIDE-PRICE

http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1998/9/15/article_01.htm

[def_lazer_fc]

everybody needs to ditch that jesus dude, (seriously, homeboy is a square) and get with the new scene. Yahweh Ben Yahweh (http://www.yahwehbenyahweh.com/).

[Mongo]

everybody needs to ditch that jesus dude, (seriously, homeboy is a square) and get with the new scene. Yahweh Ben Yahweh (http://www.yahwehbenyahweh.com/).


Are you refering to Jesus as a square?

[KaiserSooner]

I don't want to offend anyone, but it scares the bejebees out of me when evangelical Christians start talking politics.

Heh. Join the club.

[OklahomaTuba]

Heh. Join the club.
You must really hate reading about 99% of the founders of this nation then.

[OklahomaTuba]

JWs consider themselves Christians, now they might disagree with you on whether or not other religions are...

Tuba, what exactly has the ACLU tried to do that infringes on the way you practice your religion?

I think it all starts in the school system really. The ACLU and other anti-Christian groups have done their best to take this nations traditional Judeo-Christian underpinnings and rip them to shreds. No more singing traditional Christmas songs during the season, no more mention of the 1o commandments, no more relgious history, etc.

Hell, teachers are even afraid to talk about some of the most important parts of our history in public schools because all things Christian must be censored and kept from Children. Pretty crazy in a nation 80% Christian founded by Christians. Where does it stop? Since when did Humanism become the national religion?

Not to different of a situation existed in nazi Germany, Stallins Soviet Union and Mao's China in regards to the organized effort to snuff out one particular religous group and culture if you think about it.

But then again, the stated goal of the ACLU's founder kind of fits that catagory.."Communism is the goal".

[yermom]

you can't just teach that stuff at home? isn't that what Sunday School is for?

i don't think i want my kids learning about morality, etc... from school

[BigRedJed]

Seriously. Heck, I personally could care less about Christmas carols, or Valentine's Day cards, or even a moment of quiet reflection that some students utilize for prayer (we used to call it "lunch hour"). But actually indoctrinating kids with religion in public schools? I don't think that's the right place. Like someone mentioned before, anyway, if I'm a Christian parent, how can I be sure that your version of Christianity matches up with my version? Catholics and Protestants killed each other by the hundreds of thousands over slightly different interpretations of the New Testament.

Teach my kids about reading, writing, and arithmetic. Heck, throw in some good old fashioned values, even. I'm all for it. But let me handle their religious learning, if you don't mind.

[SoonerGirl06]

The ACLU was founded in 1920 by a man named Roger Baldwin who was a self proclaimed socialist. According to a biographer, he believed in the disarmamment of the citizens, sought social ownership of property, abolishment of the propertied class and of the state. He formed the ACLU under those beliefs. When he realized that the views were too radical and a majority of Americans didn't agree with him, he decided to hide under the premise of looking out for our civil liberties in order to steer the country into a more secular direction... a more socialist direction.

In order to do that, the removal of Christian beliefs and traditions from our society must be accomplished. Which they are doing repeatedly, ie: removing the Pledge of Allegiance from classrooms, removing Christian symbols (Nativity scenes, Crosses, 10 Commandments) from public viewing, abolishing public prayer before athletic events (we're now allowed a moment of silence), Christmas plays or parties from schools, taking away parental rights, defending the rights of sexual predators (NAMBLA) and it goes on and on and on.

In the eyes of the ACLU, it's okay to express your religious beliefs, as long as it's not Christian.

This country was founded on Christian values. Our Constitution was based upon the 10 Commandments. The Purpose of the Separation between Church and State has nothing to do with keeping Christian values out of societal decisions, it has to do with the government dictating which religion to believe in. If you don't believe in the Christian philosophy, that's your right. You have the right to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance or participate in a public prayer, a school Christmas play. You have the right to look away when you see a display of the Nativity or a cross. But allow me the right to participate in those activites or to say a pledge to my country under the name of God.

To me it's important to keep the morals and values this great country of ours were founded on. If we don't America will cease to exist. As the great communicator once said, [U]“If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.”

[SoonerGirl06]

you can't just teach that stuff at home? isn't that what Sunday School is for?

i don't think i want my kids learning about morality, etc... from school


Does that include teaching your kids about homosexuality, the proper use of a condom, clinics to go to to have an abortion... all of which the ACLU and their supporters are forcing school districts to indoctrinate in their curriculum?

I wouldn't want my child to learn about those things in school either, but the ACLU and their liberal friends feel differently... they're taking away parental rights and forcing their beliefs and their values upon us whether we like it or not.

[SoonerGirl06]

Seriously. Heck, I personally could care less about Christmas carols, or Valentine's Day cards, or even a moment of quiet reflection that some students utilize for prayer (we used to call it "lunch hour"). But actually indoctrinating kids with religion in public schools? I don't think that's the right place. Like someone mentioned before, anyway, if I'm a Christian parent, how can I be sure that your version of Christianity matches up with my version? Catholics and Protestants killed each other by the hundreds of thousands over slightly different interpretations of the New Testament.

Teach my kids about reading, writing, and arithmetic. Heck, throw in some good old fashioned values, even. I'm all for it. But let me handle their religious learning, if you don't mind.


If you're a Christian parent, do you want the school to teach your child about homosexuality, or provide your child with a local clinic that performs abortion? Those are the things the ACLU and liberals are forcing school districts to indoctrinate into their curriculum. Yeah, their taking out Christian values, but their forcing their values on you as well.

I'm not against homosexuality and if an adult woman chooses to have an abortion, I am not one to judge. But to force those agendas on children without parental consent is wrong.

[def_lazer_fc]

why do so many christians have such a crazy persecution complex? the relationship between the US and christianity is a far cry from nazi germany. we should spend more time on worrying about things that really matter. not whether or not the 80 year old wal mart greeter says merry christmas or happy holidays. because at the end of the day, does it really matter? are you somehow less of a christian than before? no.

[def_lazer_fc]

If you're a Christian parent, do you want the school to teach your child about homosexuality, or provide your child with a local clinic that performs abortion? Those are the things the ACLU and liberals are forcing school districts to indoctrinate into their curriculum. Yeah, their taking out Christian values, but their forcing their values on you as well.

I'm not against homosexuality and if an adult woman chooses to have an abortion, I am not one to judge. But to force those agendas on children without parental consent is wrong.

home school em if you're that concerned. and why is teaching a child about homosexuality a problem? are you worried your youngster might decide to become gay after learning about the existence of homosexuality? god forbid they teach kids tolerance these days.

[def_lazer_fc]

Are you refering to Jesus as a square?

yes

[yermom]

If you're a Christian parent, do you want the school to teach your child about homosexuality, or provide your child with a local clinic that performs abortion? Those are the things the ACLU and liberals are forcing school districts to indoctrinate into their curriculum. Yeah, their taking out Christian values, but their forcing their values on you as well.

I'm not against homosexuality and if an adult woman chooses to have an abortion, I am not one to judge. But to force those agendas on children without parental consent is wrong.

wow, the ACLU is a one-stop shop of all the things wrong with this country isn't it?

IMO it's pretty beneficial to the community if kids know that turning the condom inside-out isn't a good idea

that and beating up the kid with two dads probably isn't that great either

it's not like they are going to show them gay pr0n or something, maybe sex ed has changed since i had it

[SoonerGirl06]

home school em if you're that concerned. and why is teaching a child about homosexuality a problem? are you worried your youngster might decide to become gay after learning about the existence of homosexuality? god forbid they teach kids tolerance these days.



I could care less one way or another if an individual is a homosexual or not.

Why is teaching a child about homosexuality a problem? Because it shouldn't be left up to the schools to do that. That is a parent's responsibilty and a parents decision. Some parents views on homosexuality may be different that those that are being taught.

It's not about tolerance. It's about indoctrination of values and morals.

[Octavian]

This country was founded on Christian values. Our Constitution was based upon the 10 Commandments.

no it wasn't....and no it wasn't.



If you don't believe in the Christian philosophy, that's your right. You have the right to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance or participate in a public prayer, a school Christmas play. You have the right to look away when you see a display of the Nativity or a cross. But allow me the right to participate in those activites or to say a pledge to my country under the name of God.

...and you still have the right to do all of those things you mentioned.


the government doesn't have the right to promote or endorse them.


pretty reasonable.



To me it's important to keep the morals and values this great country of ours were founded on. If we don't America will cease to exist.


the "good ole days" only occurred in your elementary history books.

[yermom]

the founding fathers also owned slaves and didn't think women should vote

why can't we keep the vision our forefathers had for this country?

[def_lazer_fc]

somebody needs to teach them tolerance, b/c the people opposed to kids learning about it are the ones that are intolerant of it. but, who am i to say. its your kids. im pretty sure you can take your kids out of school on sex ed day, unless its changes since i went to school.

p.s. did anyone hear about that Ted Haggard guy becoming straight again after 3 weeks of "intensive" bible study. thats rich.

[Octavian]

the founding fathers also owned slaves and didn't think women should vote

why can't we keep the vision our forefathers had for this country?


wha??? thats crazy talk....


everyone knows the Founding Fathers wanted a theocratic government


thats why they wrote an inflexible religious doctrine which denounced the progressive ideals of Lockean Liberalism.


crazy talk, yermom

[yermom]

somebody needs to teach them tolerance, b/c the people opposed to kids learning about it are the ones that are intolerant of it. but, who am i to say. its your kids. im pretty sure you can take your kids out of school on sex ed day, unless its changes since i went to school.

p.s. did anyone hear about that Ted Haggard guy becoming straight again after 3 weeks of "intensive" bible study. thats rich.

he was probably hanging out with this guy:

http://www.eveningservice.com/Video

[def_lazer_fc]

he was probably hanging out with this guy:

http://www.eveningservice.com/Video

unfortunately the video is no longer hosted. but from the look of the guy i can only imagine how incredible it is.

[yermom]

"incredible" is a great choice of words

[def_lazer_fc]

thank you

[1stTimeCaller]

why anyone posted after TU's post is beyond me.

TU Sooner nails it once again.

[BigRedJed]

If you're a Christian parent, do you want the school to teach your child about homosexuality, or provide your child with a local clinic that performs abortion? Those are the things the ACLU and liberals are forcing school districts to indoctrinate into their curriculum. Yeah, their taking out Christian values, but their forcing their values on you as well.

I'm not against homosexuality and if an adult woman chooses to have an abortion, I am not one to judge. But to force those agendas on children without parental consent is wrong.
Hmm... ...I've read my post again and again, and for the life of me I STILL can't find anywhere where I mentioned homosexuality and abortion.

Let's see... ...reading? Check. Writing? Check. Arithmetic? Check. Old-fashioned values? Check. Nope, nope... ...still don't see anything in there about homosexuality or abortion. I'll keep checking and get back to you...