"How long have you been a black coach?"

[XingTheRubicon]

Tony and Lovie are great HC's. Attn: Jim Nance, Shannon Sharpe, James Brown, and Tom Jackson, etc... There's a reason Tony Dungee had that look on his face when Nance asked him about his skin color right after his team won the AFC CG. It's stupid ****ing question at that moment and TD knows he's going to get beat down for the next 2 weeks.

One of these days, we won't even notice if a Super Bowl coach is black or white or whatever, but not if the media can help it.

[C&CDean]

Yeah, I especially liked it when Shannon Shapre goes "and two black coaches for the first time....er I mean African American coaches..." Even black people hate P.C.

[The_Red_Patriot]

as long as people keep making a big deal about color, it will never go away.


Why cant we just look at them for what they are?

Good coaches


get over the skin color thing

[OUDoc]

One of these days, we won't even notice if a Super Bowl coach is black or white or whatever, but not if the media can help it.
That's what I thought. Not that it's great that we have 2 black coaches in the Super Bowl, but that it's sad we noticed.

[OUmillenium]

I have not even thought about this issue. How pathetic of the media to bring it up. I'm sure they have good reasons in trying to make a complimentary statement but when things are not said properly it really makes for bad journalism. I like both those guys as coaches and think they do a great job.

[SoonerStormchaser]

At least it won't be an *** kicking like Callahan took four years ago!

[olevetonahill]

That's what I thought. Not that it's great that we have 2 black coaches in the Super Bowl, but that it's sad we noticed.
Kinda what I was trying to say last night , Im glad this milestone is behind us now or soon will be ,
May the Best TEAM win

[picasso]

it IS a big deal that there's two in the game for the first time.

Jim Nance is a Nancy Boy.

[starrca23]

They are just two great guys. Period. You can't help but like both of them.

[Desert Sapper]

as long as people keep making a big deal about color, it will never go away.


Why cant we just look at them for what they are?

Good coaches


get over the skin color thing


I agree. These guys are great coaches who happen to be black, not the other way around as Al Sharpton and the neo-racists would have one believe.

It hasn't really been that long that black assistants have been the norm. Now it is, so there will be more black head coaches. That's generally how it works. Jobs that require experience at lower levels hire people that have that experience. Force-feeding people into those jobs without that experience simply because of their skin-color is a bad idea, and has had results that have hurt the marketability of good coaches.

It will be good when race doesn't factor in at all.

[SouthFortySooner]

...surely you guys don't think there are any cultural differences? :rolleyes:

[Collier11]

as long as people keep making a big deal about color, it will never go away.


Why cant we just look at them for what they are?

Good coaches


get over the skin color thing


The reason that it has to be an issue which I find unfortunate also is because there are still IDIOTS out there by the millions that think that Black people are an inferior race and cant see them as just good people or good coaches.

[deweydw]

...surely you guys don't think there are any cultural differences? :rolleyes:

I don't think they do, and please don't call them Shirley. ;) A good coach is a good coach, no matter the pigmintation. Art Shell is a bad coach that happens to be black. TD is a good coach that happens to be.... Get over it media types.

[OK2LA]

Yeah, I especially liked it when Shannon Shapre goes "and two black coaches for the first time....er I mean African American coaches..." Even black people hate P.C.


http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1768623#post1768623


Glad someone else noticed that - didn't see your post until now.

[Paperclip]

This just in: Tony Dungy returned to practice today...

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

One of them will be the first African American to lose the super bowl. What a burden that'll be. ;)
:eek: You're right!

[MojoRisen]

Dungy more resembles that of the Vampire from Salems Lot not a black coach!

Just Kidding-

[CobraKai]

I think it is more relevant that this is the first time a head coach named Lovie has led a team to the Super Bowl. At least I think so. Lovie Howell may have back in the 60s.

[RedstickSooner]

Omigod... Tony Dungee is BLACK???

:D

I believe it's important that we label people - it helps to keep 'em straight for folks who don't remember names very well. But I don't get why color strikes so many folks as the most important, or memorable, feature for a given coach.

Hence, Lovie Smith isn't black - he's mellow. Really, really mellow. If I didn't know better, I'd say he was a stoner.

Bob Stoops is tense.

Mangino is faaaaaat.

Leach is creepy.

Sean Payton is a zombie.

Not one of those coaches is defined by his color. Except, perhaps, Sean Payton, whose slightly green/grey skin-tinge contributes to his "zombie" label.

[fadada1]

i hate it as well. if the media wouldn't say anything, most of us would never even care/notice. i bet david duke wouldn't have noticed or cared.

apparently, however, all the white coaches were a bunch of morons this year. i'm so ashamed. my heritage is the laughing stock of the football world!!!!:rolleyes:

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

So next Norm Chow will be the first Asian coach to lead a team to the Super Bowl when he takes the Cowboys job.

[elderlysooner]

If a coach is green with pink poladots it makes absolutely no difference in his ability to coach.

[Collier11]

If a coach is green with pink poladots it makes absolutely no difference in his ability to coach.


Thats the point right there, it shouldnt matter and we shouldnt have to make a big deal of it. THe fact of the matter is though, black coaches in Pro and College football have never been given a fair shake based on their abilities.

[soonerlaw]

When Norm Chow gets a head coaching job and then takes his team to the superbowl, he will become the first Asian coach to coach in the Superbowl... now that would interest me....

[CobraKai]

When Les Miles gets a head coaching job and then takes his team to the superbowl, he will become the first flamboyantly gay coach to coach in the Superbowl... now that would interest me....

[soonerlaw]

When Les Miles gets a head coaching job and then takes his team to the superbowl, he will become the first flamboyantly gay coach to coach in the Superbowl... now that would interest me....

Sam Wyche?

[CobraKai]

Sam Wyche?

Oh ya...

[Scott D]

That question being asked of Doug Williams is an urban legend.

[TXBOOMER]

Skin color will overshadow the game.

[royalfan5]

One thing that is interesting to note, is that percentage wise Black Coaches are far more better represented in the NFL than college football. In the NFL there 6 black head coaches out of 32, and the same number give or take one out of 120 in D-1A.

[Scott D]

not going to get into that discussion out of respect for olevet.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

The fact that Lovie made it to the Super Bowl with Grossman should be enough to get him induction into not just only Canton but also the amazing feats wing of the Smithsonian

[opksooner]

It doesn't seem that long ago that sportswriters were bemoaning the lack of black coaches in the NFL.....and now some dooshbag reporter steps on his dick with this question! Harrumph!

[XingTheRubicon]

That question being asked of Doug Williams is an urban legend.

Well, not really urban legend. The question was asked by a reporter from Mississippi and more than one reporter that was there has confirmed it was something close to that. The other reporters did mention feeling bad for him because they knew it wasn't what he was trying to say.

[Stoop Dawg]

THe fact of the matter is though, black coaches in Pro and College football have never been given a fair shake based on their abilities.

Which specific coaches were not given a "fair shake"? If you can go ahead and define what constitutes a "fair shake" while you're at it that would be great.

[Stoop Dawg]

it IS a big deal that there's two in the game for the first time.


Why?

Are you surprised that a black coach was able to reach the pinnacle of his profession in spite of the lack of "fair shakes" being given to them?

Or do you feel that it is an indication that "fair shakes" are becoming more common in today's society?

Just curious.

[astro5169]

Wasn't Switzer Black???????


:cool:

[Scott D]

Well, not really urban legend. The question was asked by a reporter from Mississippi and more than one reporter that was there has confirmed it was something close to that. The other reporters did mention feeling bad for him because they knew it wasn't what he was trying to say.

The question that spawned the entire urban legend was "Doug, obviously you've been a black quarterback your entire life. When did race begin to matter to people?" Somehow it got either misheard or misinterpreted because Williams questioned back to the guy "How long have I been a black quarterback?" The mishearing isn't difficult to believe on Super Bowl media day, the barrage of questions are pretty much rapid fire.

[OK2LA]

Well, not really urban legend. The question was asked by a reporter from Mississippi and more than one reporter that was there has confirmed it was something close to that. The other reporters did mention feeling bad for him because they knew it wasn't what he was trying to say.

The story I remember hearing was - it came from a foreign reporter, and there was a little "lost in the translation" thing going on there with his engrish.

[OK2LA]

Well, not really urban legend. The question was asked by a reporter from Mississippi and more than one reporter that was there has confirmed it was something close to that. The other reporters did mention feeling bad for him because they knew it wasn't what he was trying to say.

I also heard the same story, but the guy had a hook on his foot.

[Collier11]

Which specific coaches were not given a "fair shake"? If you can go ahead and define what constitutes a "fair shake" while you're at it that would be great.


The fact that African American coaches have rarely until the past two or three years been given a Fair oppurtunity to become head coaches or to even get interviews. They had to put in a mandatory minority interview just to force some owners and AD's to give these guys a chance.

[TXBOOMER]

Let's not go where this is going. There are a shat load of qualified Black and White coaches that will never ever get considered for a head job. It is all about big supply and little demand.

[Collier11]

Let's not go where this is going. There are a shat load of qualified Black and White coaches that will never ever get considered for a head job. It is all about big supply and little demand.



We cant just disregard the ignorance of some of these people by making that blanket statement. Look at how many D1 and NFL head coaching jobs there are(by my estimate around 151) and how many exactly are African-American??? I bet its not even 15%.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

The fact that African American coaches have rarely until the past two or three years been given a Fair oppurtunity to become head coaches or to even get interviews. They had to put in a mandatory minority interview just to force some owners and AD's to give these guys a chance.

This is bull crap really though..I mean seriously do you think Jerry Jones was going to hire some black guy he was forced to interview

[Collier11]

This is bull crap really though..I mean seriously do you think Jerry Jones was going to hire some black guy he was forced to interview


I feel ya Gandalf...Im not saying the requirements to have to interview a minority are right, but it is sad that they HAD to institue such a lame practice just to get people to actually interview a black guy

[usmc-sooner]

We cant just disregard the ignorance of some of these people by making that blanket statement. Look at how many D1 and NFL head coaching jobs there are(by my estimate around 151) and how many exactly are African-American??? I bet its not even 15%.

I think what hurts black coaches the most is the fact that the ones that get hired don't do that well. You've got a few that are really good and a lot of Boo Blakes, guys that get hired because they are black. The fact of the matter is we live in a results driven society. If I hire a lawyer I want one that wins, regardless of color, If I hire a broker I want one that makes me money, black or white. If I hire a guy I want a hard worker not a race. If I work for someone I want the highest paying guy who treats me fairly. I think all this crying over and making a big deal is BS. How can we go back and change something we didn't do. We can't. Every race has a history of slavery, every race has been screwed over at one point or other. This BS idea of making things up to people is stupid.

[Collier11]

Ya but how many white coaches dont do well and they keep re-hiring them. There are just so many white coaches that it doesnt seem the same as when they get fired

[usmc-sooner]

Ya but how many white coaches dont do well and they keep re-hiring them. There are just so many white coaches that it doesnt seem the same as when they get fired

fired is fired even when your white.

[Collier11]

NO, what I was saying was in response to you saying that when they do get hired they dont do well. I said the reason it doesnt seem the same with blacks is because there are so few black coaches and so many white coaches.

[usmc-sooner]

NO, what I was saying was in response to you saying that when they do get hired they dont do well. I said the reason it doesnt seem the same with blacks is because there are so few black coaches and so many white coaches.

if you look at most census polls, black people tend to occupy about the same spot in the in job market as they do in their population in the US.

answer me this? How many employees of companies like FUBU are white? How many times does JET magazine or BET require that they interview white people.

Is there not a black man running for President of the US?

I think it's a retard arguement. People will hire the best, if not they lose, and if they do they can lose to their hearts content.

[Collier11]

I dont believe that at all. Those examples are African-American companies aimed at African Americans, The NFL and D1 football are not race specific companies

[usmc-sooner]

I dont believe that at all. Those examples are African-American companies aimed at African Americans,


ah so there is difference between race specific companies? Sounds like the KKK in reverse.

[Collier11]

That is the stupidest thing ive heard on this thread. I guarantee you the % of whites working for those companies is more than double that of head coaches who are black

[usmc-sooner]

That is the stupidest thing ive heard on this thread. I guarantee you the % of whites working for those companies is more than double that of head coaches who are black

would you bet?

I don't think you understand things like basic %. Oh well if it's the stupidest thing you've ever heard..consider yourself enlightened.

[Collier11]

Im not the one that needs some enlightening, if you cant face the fact that blacks havent historically gotten a fair shake when it comes to head coaching oppurtunities then go do some research. I dont agree with some of the methods being implemented to force AD's and GM's to interview certain people, but if thats what it takes then I guess thats the way it has to be.

[usmc-sooner]

I think all teams should have to interview at least one American Indian, one Black person, an Asian, a Hispanic,

I also wonder if they should be forced to interview midgets, gay people, women.

I want an interview, they should be forced to interview me.

this is retarded

[MojoRisen]

I believe since this became a topic of conversation about 5 years ago or so- that the interest level rose and thus so did qualified applicants... I am guessing but I would bet that the number of Black head coaches are up over 5000% in that time frame...

Not because they are getting a better shake at it- but now there are more qualified applicants that happen too be black...

[Collier11]

I think all teams should have to interview at least one American Indian, one Black person, an Asian, a Hispanic,

I also wonder if they should be forced to interview midgets, gay people, women.

I want an interview, they should be forced to interview me.

this is retarded


I just agreed with you on that, my only point is that I as a white male have taken 4 African-American studies classes, have written over 10 papers, watched countless movies, and done a ton of research and I can say with a lot of conviction that African Americans have not gotten a fair look as far as head coaching positions go. Hell, look at the senate, look at CEO's of big corporations, it is on all levels but since we are talking about football we dont need to go into that. I truly wish that the big story could be Tony Dungy a great coach that never won the big game finally has made it to the SB and the Bears are back for the first time in 21 years. It is very unfortunate that it cant be about that, but it is something that deserves discussion ya know?

[usmc-sooner]

I just agreed with you on that, my only point is that I as a white male have taken 4 African-American studies classes, have written over 10 papers, watched countless movies, and done a ton of research and I can say with a lot of conviction that African Americans have not gotten a fair look as far as head coaching positions go. Hell, look at the senate, look at CEO's of big corporations, it is on all levels but since we are talking about football we dont need to go into that. I truly wish that the big story could be Tony Dungy a great coach that never won the big game finally has made it to the SB and the Bears are back for the first time in 21 years. It is very unfortunate that it cant be about that, but it is something that deserves discussion ya know?


well you do have classes, and have seen movies.

I'm a white boy who also has his CDIB I find this hilarious.

[Collier11]

I too have a CDIB...your point? I really doubt youve done any real research on it as I have so you continue being ignorant, stubborn, and insensitive to racial issues and I can go on trying to educate myself on real social issues. We can leave it at that!!!

[usmc-sooner]

my point is I've grown up around all different kind of races, I don't need to take classes, or watch tv shows about it. Yeah I'm insenitive to it because I think that racism is not the issue it was in the 60's. In fact I think we've over corrected the problem to where we have created a reverse racisism society.
I think our society, ninnies and whines and looks for our next great problem or social issue to conquer to the point that we make them up or make mountains out of molehills.
I don't see any orientals, Indians, very few Hispanics, women, Arabs, coaching and nobody is whining about that.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I am going to let you in on a little secret about the NFL, if Charles Manson could design complex defensive schemes and showed incredible skills developing young talent, I can guarantee you at least 5 NFL teams would be at his next parole hearing :P

[Sooner_Bob]

The fact that Lovie made it to the Super Bowl with Grossman should be enough to get him induction into not just only Canton but also the amazing feats wing of the Smithsonian


and a spot on Ripley's Believe It or Not . . .

[usmc-sooner]

I am going to let you in on a little secret about the NFL, if Charles Manson could design complex defensive schemes and showed incredible skills developing young talent, I can guarantee you at least 5 NFL teams would be at his next parole hearing :P


exactly

[David Earl]

I have an idea!

How about: "There are no black or white coaches. There are just coaches."

I can dream, can't I?

[fadada1]

I have an idea!

How about: "There are no black or white coaches. There are just coaches."

I can dream, can't I?
i totally agree. i'm almost positive lovie smith was not hired by the bears because he is black. i would hazard a guess that he was hired because... well... HE CAN COACH!!! and interestingly enough, he proved it this year.

and can we stop with the "african-american" label. lovie smith and tony dungie are no more african-american than any one of us. oh, and i'm white. i'm not referred to as a "german-american". WE ARE AMERICANS. all these words we use to describe another race are just that... words. my grandparents used the word "colored", my parents used a different word (and by saying, "the N word"... it's just as bad as saying the word itself - lets not dance around the issue), my generation used the word "black", and the current generation uses the word "african-american". they all mean the same thing.

i'm white and i'm proud of it. my heritage is german, scottish, and irish. and i'm proud of that too. but i am an AMERICAN. plain and simple.

[stoopified]

That's what I thought. Not that it's great that we have 2 black coaches in the Super Bowl, but that it's sad we noticed.So true.

[David Earl]

i'm white and i'm proud of it. my heritage is german, scottish, and irish. and i'm proud of that too. but i am an AMERICAN. plain and simple.

Dude, don't you know that white is not a color, therefore pride in that heritage is not allowed? :rolleyes:

Virtually everyone of us have mixed ancestry. Being Christian, I believe I share the same root ancestry with everybody. There's nothing special about any color. GADOCADWI! So I trace my lineage through a few different tribes. Big, fat, hairy deal! Most "African/Amercians" have white ancestry as well. Why does that not make them as much "Anglo/Saxon" as it does "Aftrican"? Is it because the dark skin genes are dominant and the light skin genes are recessive? People, it's ignorance gone to seed.

King had it right. Content of the character, not color of the skin. Thing is, people sitting around the table playing their race cards don't believe that as much as I do.

[Collier11]

Im not saying that they were hired because they were black, what I am saying is that blacks were not given a fair shot at jobs because of their skin color up until recently. Numbers prove it out. The NFL has been around for how long, 40 some odd years, and I bet there havent been 20 black head coaches total in that entire time. Now they are beginning to be looked at as good coaches and not just black coaches and that Is why more people are hiring them.

[Collier11]

and can we stop with the "african-american" label. lovie smith and tony dungie are no more african-american than any one of us. .


You need to understand where this comes from before you act like you know what you are talking about. I am not coming after you or being rude, but you need to realize why they prefer to be called African-American rather than just American before you say that it does not exist and that they are no more african-american than you are.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

First of all, the label "African American" is the dumbest, most persistently used phrase in our vernacular. Every time you call someone an "African American," you're making at least two assumptions about the person:

1. That the person is an American. For example, if you saw this guy walking along on a street, you would probably think:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/african_american_lol2.jpg ...which is fine, except for one small detail: this man is British, which makes you a presumptuous ****.
2. That the person is African (because it's inconceivable that black people could come from Haiti, India, Trinidad, Dominican Republic, Brazil, Australia, or Jamaica). Nevermind that; BLACK PEOPLE ONLY COME FROM AFRICA.

Not to mention that every time you give a black person the distinction of being "African American" out of a mixed group, you're making an assumption about an entire continent; not everyone from Africa is black. I guarantee all you politically correct morons out there have never called a white person an African American. Of course you could avoid all these problems by using the same standards on blacks as you would on whites by simply assuming that all whites are from Africa just as you do for all blacks, but that might be too forward, and in a polite society like ours, people would be all too pleased to point out which of the 192 countries you didn't guess they were actually from.

[David Earl]

Grey wizzard! Stop using logic!!!!

[Collier11]

First of all, the label "African American" is the dumbest, most persistently used phrase in our vernacular. Every time you call someone an "African American," you're making at least two assumptions about the person:

1. That the person is an American. For example, if you saw this guy walking along on a street, you would probably think:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/african_american_lol2.jpg ...which is fine, except for one small detail: this man is British, which makes you a presumptuous ****.
2. That the person is African (because it's inconceivable that black people could come from Haiti, India, Trinidad, Dominican Republic, Brazil, Australia, or Jamaica). Nevermind that; BLACK PEOPLE ONLY COME FROM AFRICA.

Not to mention that every time you give a black person the distinction of being "African American" out of a mixed group, you're making an assumption about an entire continent; not everyone from Africa is black. I guarantee all you politically correct morons out there have never called a white person an African American. Of course you could avoid all these problems by using the same standards on blacks as you would on whites by simply assuming that all whites are from Africa just as you do for all blacks, but that might be too forward, and in a polite society like ours, people would be all too pleased to point out which of the 192 countries you didn't guess they were actually from.

African-American is not an assumption of what region you are from, it is a term used by black Americans to allow themselves to hold on to their African heritage as well as their American heritage. African-Americans don't claim to JUST be American because they do not want to be linked solely to a country that brutalized their people unjustly for hundreds of years.

adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of Americans of African ancestry; "Afro-American culture"; "many black people preferred to be called African-American or Afro-American"

noun
1. an American whose ancestors were born in Africa

Yes, often times they were not directly from Africa, but as I previously said they choose the term as a way to hold on to their African Heritgage.

[Collier11]

I wish everyone could be color blind and see each other as human-beings rather than a skin tone, but unfortunately we live in a world where that will never happen because people are full of fear and cowardice and false presumptions.

[bluedogok]

NO, what I was saying was in response to you saying that when they do get hired they dont do well. I said the reason it doesnt seem the same with blacks is because there are so few black coaches and so many white coaches.Tony Dungy was hired by the Colts right after being fired by the Buccaneers, he was hired because of his coaching abilities and not skin color. Dennis Green was hired again by Arizona after getting fired by the Vikings, granted it took a couple of years but that is not uncommon with coaches, look at how many former head coaches are now coordinators and assistants with other teams.

If Boo Blake or Bob Simmons had been successful they might have been hired away by someone else. If they had eventually been fired after being successful, someone would have hired them. Their skin color had nothing to do with them being fired, poor performance was just as it is with white coaches. There were plenty of white coaches fired this year because of poor performance. Poor performance and getting fired for that reason is independent of skin color.

[Collier11]

Tony Dungy was hired by the Colts right after being fired by the Buccaneers, he was hired because of his coaching abilities and not skin color. Dennis Green was hired again by Arizona after getting fired by the Vikings, granted it took a couple of years but that is not uncommon with coaches, look at how many former head coaches are now coordinators and assistants with other teams.

If Boo Blake or Bob Simmons had been successful they might have been hired away by someone else. If they had eventually been fired after being successful, someone would have hired them. Their skin color had nothing to do with them being fired, poor performance was just as it is with white coaches. There were plenty of white coaches fired this year because of poor performance. Poor performance and getting fired for that reason is independent of skin color.


Tony Dungy took the Bucs(before he got there a horrible franchise) to the nfc title game and missed out on the SB by 5 pts. Denny green led the vikes to the playoffs a few times. They were successful and that is why they were rehired

[bluedogok]

Tony Dungy took the Bucs(before he got there a horrible franchise) to the nfc title game and missed out on the SB by 5 pts. Denny green led the vikes to the playoffs a few times. They were successful and that is why they were rehired
That is what I was stating, they were not rehired because of color, they were rehired because of their success. Just like turds don't get rehired for lack of success no matter what color they are. Where is Keith Burns (former Tulsa coach) now?

You are right, color should not be an issue and I think in the NFL it isn't much of one anymore.