I'm not proud to be a Republican!

[8timechamps]

I’m sure this may start a political firestorm here, but hopefully it’ll be friendly conversation with some insight (yeah, right).

Up until about 2 years ago, I was a die hard republican. Towed the party line, good and bad. I know of at least 4 elections (local and national), that I voted the party line just because of my republican affiliation.

But, I’m done. At least for this election. I’m so sick of Iraq. Yesterday, I got word that a third friend of mine was killed outside of Baghdad in a car bomb explosion. Any life taken in Iraq is not worth it. Probably never was, but now it’s become so much more personal.

I am an ex service man, and drank the kool-aid. I went to Iraq in the early 90’s, and did what my president told me to do. But here we are over a decade later, still caught up in this crap. We need to leave. Yesterday.

I’ve lost all confidence in my parties ability to wage, run, or win a war. Much less play policeman to the world. You can throw the “but if we don’t, who will? Or “If we leave now, it’ll be worse than ever!” or even still, “We must fight terror” crap in my face, but my response to you is “What is so much better about living in the USA now than 8, 10, 12 years ago?”

I’m voting democrat in the next presidential election. As a republican, I feel like we’ve had our chance. And we have dropped the ball. It’s time to see what the Dems can do. And I honestly don’t think they can do any worse.

[C&CDean]

Meh.

[8timechamps]

Meh.

Good point. I've changed my view.

[crawfish]

I registered Republican so I could vote for a friend in a primary. I need to get that swapped back to unregistered.

I'm just as unhappy with democrats.

[olevetonahill]

My answer is twofold
#1 Ive never voted a straight party ticket in my life :eek:
#2 My little buddy Troy (who is on his second year long tour there) Says hes proud to be there .
so that pretty much sums up me feelings about us being there :pop:

[SoonerStormchaser]

Ok...so do you have a better plan for how to do the job in Iraq without letting it go into the hands of the terrorists? Cause the Democrats sure as hell don't seem to.

[8timechamps]

Ok...so do you have a better plan for how to do the job in Iraq without letting it go into the hands of the terrorists? Cause the Democrats sure as hell don't seem to.

Well, Bush & Co seem to have a great plan in place. Things are going very well. Anything short of getting the hell outta there isn't a "good" plan.

[C&CDean]

When I read "drank the koolaid" in the same sentence as "I went to war" all I can think of is Tom Cruise in 4th of July. Like I said, meh.

[8timechamps]

My answer is twofold
#1 Ive never voted a straight party ticket in my life :eek:
#2 My little buddy Troy (who is on his second year long tour there) Says hes proud to be there .
so that pretty much sums up me feelings about us being there :pop:

Any service person in Iraq should be proud. And I am proud as hell of all of them. But, I still want them home!

[C&CDean]

Well, Bush & Co seem to have a great plan in place. Things are going very well. Anything short of getting the hell outta there isn't a "good" plan.

So, what you're saying is that you're on some new pain meds?

[Penguin]

Time to play Devil's advocate.


I would much rather have terrorists killing themselves trying to blow up our troops in Iraq than have terrorists killing themselves trying to blow up buildings and innocent civilians here in the U.S.

[8timechamps]

When I read "drank the koolaid" in the same sentence as "I went to war" all I can think of is Tom Cruise in 4th of July. Like I said, meh.

Well, since I want to be nowhere near the mention of freak-o Cruise, let me tell you by saying "drank the koolaid", I meant, I followed orders and believed that there would be a swift end to the whole thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not running to the next rally to waive the flag of piece.

[8timechamps]

We have a much bigger problem brewing in Iran. Of course, you almost never hear mention of ousting that crazy *** government. Our priority seems to be setting up check points at the local Baghdad fruit stand.

[Hatfield]

Time to play Devil's advocate.


I would much rather have terrorists killing themselves trying to blow up our troops in Iraq than have terrorists killing themselves trying to blow up buildings and innocent civilians here in the U.S.


i have never understood this logic...it seems people believe that since we are fighting over there then a magical shield has descended over our great land making us impervious to attack.

[olevetonahill]

Any service person in Iraq should be proud. And I am proud as hell of all of them. But, I still want them home!
He wants to be able to DO THE DAMN JOB , Then come home .
Our troops on the ground DO NOT DESERVE A bunch of mother****ing Hanoi janes giving hope to mother****ing ENIMEY !
:mad:

[8timechamps]

i have never understood this logic...it seems people believe that since we are fighting over there then a magical shield has descended over our great land making us impervious to attack.

Yep,
not to mention that any terrorist with a brain knows that there are much better hiding places than Iraq. And it's crazy to think we can police the world.

[8timechamps]

He wants to be able to DO THE DAMN JOB , Then come home .
Our troops on the ground DO NOT DESERVE A bunch of mother****ing Hanoi janes giving hope to mother****ing ENIMEY !
:mad:

WHAT JOB? Yeah, I wanted to "do the job" in 1990, but guess what?! It didn't happen.

There is no "job" that's going to be finished. That's the problem.

[olevetonahill]

i have never understood this logic...it seems people believe that since we are fighting over there then a magical shield has descended over our great land making us impervious to attack.
Ive never understood that logic
when was the last time there was a major terriost attack here ?

[olevetonahill]

WHAT JOB? Yeah, I wanted to "do the job" in 1990, but guess what?! It didn't happen.

There is no "job" that's going to be finished. That's the problem.

You can Tell him tah in My greatnews Thread .
Or If I can get him to come over and do a Q& A for you Yahoos !;)

[Penguin]

i have never understood this logic...it seems people believe that since we are fighting over there then a magical shield has descended over our great land making us impervious to attack.

I agree. There would be no greater victory for the terrorists than to have a successful attack on American soil while our troops are in Iraq.

[8timechamps]

You can Tell him tah in My greatnews Thread .
Or If I can get him to come over and do a Q& A for you Yahoos !;)
Like I said, I am proud of him (and all others that are in service in Iraq), that you can tell him.

But, I don't want him or any other service person getting wounded or killed for Iraq. We've done enough, and it's time to let them take over their country. Be the police, the military and the government. We've shed more than enough blood for their country.

[sooneron]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, "this won't end well".

Your options are limited, very limited. And I'm saying that from the other side of the aisle.

[bluedogok]

The US either needs to commit fully to win (which has not happened since WWII) or get the hell out. This doing things half-assed does nothing but get people killed.

I considered myself an Oklahoma Republican but still more of a moderate than anything else, when I moved to Texas 4 years ago I became an independent. As the Republican party has swung just to the left of Attilla the Hun combined with Gordon Gekko and the left is...well the lost left. We are screwed until there are real options. All both parties care about anymore is lining their pockets and consolidating power. I don't see any significant difference between them.

[8timechamps]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, "this won't end well".

Your options are limited, very limited. And I'm saying that from the other side of the aisle.

The sad thing is, you're probably right.

[Widescreen]

when was the last time there was a major terriost attack here ?
Last night in Los Angeles. Suitcase bomb.


It’s time to see what the Dems can do.
Isn't that what the 90's was about? And Clinton didn't have to deal with terrorist attacks on US soil, major natural disasters and a recession.

[sooneron]

NO






I am right.

[FaninAma]

In my opinion, I think the entire region was destined to have a massive meltdown anyway. It didn't matter whether the US was over there or not.....it's just coming a lot sooner than if the US had not gotten directly involved.

The silver lining to bringing the Baathists down in Iraq is now the various factions are turning more of their hatred inward on each other as the batle to fill the void vacated by Saddam and his Baathist henchmen instead of focusing it on Israel and the United States. The zealots in Iran can spend money helping out the Shiites and the extremists in Saudia Arabia can spend their money on helping out the Sunnis.

Oh, I'm sure that there are some Islamists over there that would love to detonate a nuke in NYC if they could but perhaps their efforts and resources will be a bit more tied up in the civil war brewing in the region.

Not a good situation for the civilian population in the region but there is nothing the west can do to change what is going to happen over there. The hatred and thirst for revenge have been centuries old in their develpment.

And I am of the opinion that the inevitable meltdown is better cominng now than later when my kids would have to deal with it.

[sooneron]

Isn't that what the 90's was about? And Clinton didn't have to deal with terrorist attacks on US soil, major natural disasters and a recession.
Uh, There were no hurricanes in the 90's?

[8timechamps]

NO






I am right.


I got yer right.......:eek:

[olevetonahill]

Like I said, I am proud of him (and all others that are in service in Iraq), that you can tell him.

But, I don't want him or any other service person getting wounded or killed for Iraq. We've done enough, and it's time to let them take over their country. Be the police, the military and the government. We've shed more than enough blood for their country.
Ok , Im gonna type real slow here :P
OUR Troops ARE there , And In my opinion anyone who is screaming for em to get is a "hanoi jane "
you Me nor anyone else will change that fact Nor get em home sooner ( heh Sooner )
I was in the stinkin Jungle while all the nacy boys ( thanks SAS ) were screaming get us OUT of Nam . Guess what? after all the dam protest and **** we didnt get near as many " Chu Hois ) as before why ? because they had gained hope that we were gonna pull up our collective pants and come home !
Guess what That shat worked It got us OUT of nam with a job undone
so **** the nacyboys !

[8timechamps]

In my opinion, I think the entire region was destined to have a massive meltdown anyway. It didn't matter whether the US was over there or not.....it's just coming a lot sooner than if the US had not gotten directly involved.

The silver lining to bringing the Baathists down in Iraq is now the various factions are turning more of their hatred inward on each other as the batle to fill the void vacated by Saddam and his Baathist henchmen instead of focusing it on Israel and the United States. The zealots in Iran can spend money helping out the Shiites and the extremists in Saudia Arabia can spend their money on helping out the Sunnis.

Oh, I'm sure that there are some Islamists over there that would love to detonate a nuke in NYC if they could but perhaps their efforts and resources will be a bit more tied up in the civil war brewing in the region.

Not a good situation for the civilian population in the region but there is nothing the west can do to change what is going to happen over there. The hatred and thirst for revenge have been centuries old in their develpment.

And I am of the opinion that the inevitable meltdown is better cominng now than later when my kids would have to deal with it.


I will agree that life for a "normal" Iraqi citizen is probably better than it was 10 years ago, but can the same be said for a citizen of the US?

[olevetonahill]

Last night in Los Angeles. Suitcase bomb.


Isn't that what the 90's was about? And Clinton didn't have to deal with terrorist attacks on US soil, major natural disasters and a recession.
Link to the suitcase thing ?
I very seldom turn on a TV .

[Widescreen]

Uh, There were no hurricanes in the 90's?
Not the severity of what we've had recently - and not as many.

[8timechamps]

Ok , Im gonna type real slow here :P
OUR Troops ARE there , And In my opinion anyone who is screaming for em to get is a "hanoi jane "
you Me nor anyone else will change that fact Nor get em home sooner ( heh Sooner )
I was in the stinkin Jungle while all the nacy boys ( thanks SAS ) were screaming get us OUT of Nam . Guess what? after all the dam protest and **** we didnt get near as many " Chu Hois ) as before why ? because they had gained hope that we were gonna pull up our collective pants and come home !
Guess what That shat worked It got us OUT of nam with a job undone
so **** the nacyboys !

First of all, I do think "we" can get them out. We can speak clearly at the polls. Secondly, speaking as a person that served time in the gulf, I can say without reserve that I want our troops home. While the war may seem similar to that of Vietnam, the public sentiment isn't the same. At least not on my end.

[bluedogok]

In my opinion, I think the entire region was destined to have a massive meltdown anyway. It didn't matter whether the US was over there or not.....it's just coming a lot sooner than if the US had not gotten directly involved.
That area of the world has been fighting each other for centuries and the only thing that has ever stopped the ethnic wars is fear from a dictator. Look at what happened to Yugoslavia after the fall of communism, they continued their centuries old hatreds after the totalitarian regime failed. Their fear stopped them acting out their hatred for 50 years, you would think after 50 years some of it would have gone away.

To think that an open society like in the US would work over there is a fallacy at best, you have to have a majority of people who are willing to ensure that it will be that way before it can be sustainable. As long as there are others who hate just because of ethnicity or religious views you will never have peace, for those regions, I doubt that we will ever see peace over there.

[Widescreen]

Link to the suitcase thing ?
I very seldom turn on a TV .
http://www.fox.com/24/episodes/9am.htm

Scroll down to 9:58am.

[Mjcpr]

While the war may seem similar to that of Vietnam, the public sentiment isn't the same. At least not on my end.

That's true folks, I've seen his end.

[olevetonahill]

Then we need to Bring EVERY American Home and just Israel Handle it
They will turn the whole place into a big parking lot :D

[Jerk]

I understand people being mad at Republicans. And it's just not Iraq, it's other things like the size and scope of the Federal Gov't and lack of solutions for the immigration problem. But just because I'm mad at Republicans, doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to vote for Democrats. I did vote for some local Dems last election, like Brad Henry, but he's not a flaming liberal. But I won't vote for Dems on a national level- I'll vote libertarian first.

[Frozen Sooner]

Ive never understood that logic
when was the last time there was a major terriost attack here ?

Are we really wanting to establish "Nobody's flown a plane into a building recently" as the standard of competence?

[C&CDean]

You guys crack me up. Like who you vote for will make any difference in this world.

This ship is so huge, on a vast ocean, going full speed ahead. Do you know how long it takes to turn a massive ship going full speed ahead? Especially when there's dimwits at the helm?

Your vote doesn't count for ****. Mainly because the people with the $$/power/stroke to run for higher office ain't worth killing.

[Jerk]

You guys crack me up. Like who you vote for will make any difference in this world.

This ship is so huge, on a vast ocean, going full speed ahead. Do you know how long it takes to turn a massive ship going full speed ahead? Especially when there's dimwits at the helm?

Your vote doesn't count for ****. Mainly because the people with the $$/power/stroke to run for higher office ain't worth killing.

I did in Florida back in 2000

[olevetonahill]

Are we really wanting to establish "Nobody's flown a plane into a building recently" as the standard of competence?
Aint what Im saying atall Mike
Just, you have to admit that AQs ability to hit Us has been severely hurt

[olevetonahill]

You guys crack me up. Like who you vote for will make any difference in this world.

This ship is so huge, on a vast ocean, going full speed ahead. Do you know how long it takes to turn a massive ship going full speed ahead? Especially when there's dimwits at the helm?

Your vote doesn't count for ****. Mainly because the people with the $$/power/stroke to run for higher office ain't worth killing.
Yup
I agree Deano
The libs , cons. really dont make a difference . Its the Money /power brokers who rule the roost !:mad:

[Vaevictis]

I agree. There would be no greater victory for the terrorists than to have a successful attack on American soil while our troops are in Iraq.

They clearly don't think so. If Al Qaeda was determined to get an attack off on our soil, do you think that we could stop them? It wouldn't take much to slip one African Muslim through the system, have him go into some old school in the Northeast, and drop some Clorox and Ammonia from the janitor closet into the boiler in the boiler room.

No, the greatest victory for them is to have us in Iraq where they can undermine our plans for it, destabilize the country, and have the whole goddamn place bleed our military and economic strength for years and years and years.

If we withdraw, well, that's a nice propoganda victory, but nothing next to bleeding.

We either need to win it -- now -- or withdraw. And we're clearly not winning. 20k isn't going to do ****.

[C&CDean]

They clearly don't think so. If Al Qaeda was determined to get an attack off on our soil, do you think that we could stop them? It wouldn't take much to slip one African Muslim through the system, have him go into some old school in the Northeast, and drop some Clorox and Ammonia from the janitor closet into the boiler in the boiler room.

No, the greatest victory for them is to have us in Iraq where they can undermine our plans for it, destabilize the country, and have the whole goddamn place bleed our military and economic strength for years and years and years.

If we withdraw, well, that's a nice propoganda victory, but nothing next to bleeding.

We either need to win it -- now -- or withdraw. And we're clearly not winning. 20k isn't going to do ****.

Bull**** on the first part of your post, and we could do wonders with 20K more troops. But only if they're allowed to do their job. Putting 20K more people over there - and then tying their hands behind their backs - makes me agree with your second part.

[jk the sooner fan]

both the democrats and republicans voted to go to war.....based on what is now deemed faulty intelligence.....but both parties voted on it

so both parties started it....one wants to finish it, the other doesnt

war is hell, people die...so a friend of yours dies and now you've all of a sudden decided its the republicans fault? (because thats who you've decided to "punish")

i'm sorry for your loss, truly i am......but alot of others have lost their life or been seriously injured....they are just as important as anybody we know personally......they all matter......from the VERY FIRST casualty to the one that counted 3026

its my personal belief that leaving now is a huge mistake....i think the attempts that are about to be made is a fair request and better idea than any idea i've heard from the democrats (there is no plan - "just leave")

we dont hear about iran in the news? are you kidding? i've seen it on the news everyday for months.....

instability in that region is trouble for us, whether we're there or not.....

[Ike]

Aint what Im saying atall Mike
Just, you have to admit that AQs ability to hit Us has been severely hurt

I'm not so sure that this is true. I think the "fighting em over there" argument works because the terrorists view the entire middle east as "their turf", and they will fight like mad for control of it now that the violence is out in the open.

I don't think we have hurt their ability to hit us here, but I do think we have re-focused them on their own backyard. I think that they know that terror attacks here really won't accomplish much except to make us over-react even more.


personally, I think the terrorists wanted to provoke us into a fight (or fights) in the middle east with 9/11. I think they wanted us over there because they figured that the arab world would more quickly unite against us if we came to the Middle East with guns a' blazin.

[jk the sooner fan]

i think there's alot of truth to what Ike says about them wanting to draw us on to their soil......however, they sure talk alot about hitting us here where we live...and there have been several plots foiled both here and abroad (outside of the immediate middle east)

[Vaevictis]

Bull**** on the first part of your post

Bull**** on it being easy to hit us? Seriously, just how hard do you think it would be to send some African muslim in to a school and use stuff available on site to nerve gas all the kiddies?

Or *two* trained Muslim pilots to Max Westheimer Airport (aka, "What do you mean, security?" Airport) in the fall, snatch one of those commuter jets and fly it into the stadium before anyone can do a goddamn thing?

Not hard at all.


, and we could do wonders with 20K more troops. But only if they're allowed to do their job. Putting 20K more people over there - and then tying their hands behind their backs - makes me agree with your second part.

20k troops won't win it, not even close. 20 per 1000 residents is -- at least according to the military -- the bare minimum for counter-insurgency. So, 20k will cover 2 million people, if you assume all of them are set on counter-insurgency.

Baghdad alone has 6 million people; if you assume our 30k or so troops already there are also all dedicated to COIN, then you've got a 70k troop shortfall, right? Where are we going to make that up?

[olevetonahill]

I'm not so sure that this is true. I think the "fighting em over there" argument works because the terrorists view the entire middle east as "their turf", and they will fight like mad for control of it now that the violence is out in the open.

I don't think we have hurt their ability to hit us here, but I do think we have re-focused them on their own backyard. I think that they know that terror attacks here really won't accomplish much except to make us over-react even more.


personally, I think the terrorists wanted to provoke us into a fight (or fights) in the middle east with 9/11. I think they wanted us over there because they figured that the arab world would more quickly unite against us if we came to the Middle East with guns a' blazin.
Ok so your sayin we havnt hurt their traning camps ? havnt hurt their recruting , havnt hurt their Finaces ?
WTF :confused:

[C&CDean]

Bull**** on it being easy to hit us? Seriously, just how hard do you think it would be to send some African muslim in to a school and use stuff available on site to nerve gas all the kiddies?

Or *two* trained Muslim pilots to Max Westheimer Airport (aka, "What do you mean, security?" Airport) in the fall, snatch one of those commuter jets and fly it into the stadium before anyone can do a goddamn thing?

Not hard at all.



20k troops won't win it, not even close. 20 per 1000 residents is -- at least according to the military -- the bare minimum for counter-insurgency. So, 20k will cover 2 million people, if you assume all of them are set on counter-insurgency.

Baghdad alone has 6 million people; if you assume our 30k or so troops already there are also all dedicated to COIN, then you've got a 70k troop shortfall, right? Where are we going to make that up?

If it were that easy to "hit us," they would have already. Don't kid yourself for a minute. Yes, they could sneak into a school and poison some kids. That isn't what I call "hitting us."

And the troops we have over there now could end this ****ing thing. If they weren't hogtied by our own "leadership." If it were up to me, I'd call all the military commanders together and say "I'm gonna give you 90 days to end this thing. All rules of engagement are off. Rock and roll, hoochy coo. Let me know what equipment you need, and God bless." Of course our leaders don't have the gut for that. They'd just rather have our boys die one-by-one. It looks better that way...

[Ike]

i think there's alot of truth to what Ike says about them wanting to draw us on to their soil......however, they sure talk alot about hitting us here where we live...and there have been several plots foiled both here and abroad (outside of the immediate middle east)

yeah, I know that there have been several plots foiled, and a few successful ones abroad, but I think that those are more about provoking the west into a clash of civilizations.


You have to understand that I think these people have some huge delusions of grandeur. I think they figure that if the entire western world descends upon the middle east, that they can somehow unite every muslim to stand up and fight us and drag us into a war that bleeds us dry. Once they have bled us dry, they'll probably go after israel figuring that she will be all alone now and that no one will come to her aid, and then after that's done they think they will be able to rule the entire arab world under one flag, simply by saying "look at all we have done under our leadership. we'll do more!"

of course, this is just my opinion of how they think, but this is how I perceive their aims. The terror attacks abroad, in my opinion, serve two purposes...firstly to provoke a fight, and then to diminish the will to fight if and when they decide that they want to take on israel. These people know that in order to unite the arab world behind them, they are going to have to "win" a few battles. I think they figure that if they can kick us out of Iraq, they'll claim a victory and immediately win more support from the rest of the arab world.

[Ike]

Ok so your sayin we havnt hurt their traning camps ? havnt hurt their recruting , havnt hurt their Finaces ?
WTF :confused:
yes, we've hit training camps.
I think it's pretty obvious that their recruiting is as strong as it's ever been.
maybe we've hurt their finances...certainly their finances in the states, but their financal backing in the arab world...not so sure about that.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Your options are limited, very limited. And I'm saying that from the other side of the aisle.Kudos, a dim with some common sense.

[Vaevictis]

Yes, they could sneak into a school and poison some kids. That isn't what I call "hitting us."

High schools often have a thousand or more kids in them. You could potentially annihilate all of them. If that's not "hitting" us, then almost nothing is.


If it were that easy to "hit us," they would have already. Don't kid yourself for a minute.

The issue is that they want to pull of the spectacular ops -- they have a fetish for blowing up airplanes. They haven't become desperate enough yet to go for the easy targets.

As far as it being that easy -- well, it is that easy. Don't kid yourself for a minute. They're not hitting the easy targets because they don't want to.


And the troops we have over there now could end this ****ing thing. If they weren't hogtied by our own "leadership." If it were up to me, I'd call all the military commanders together and say "I'm gonna give you 90 days to end this thing. All rules of engagement are off. Rock and roll, hoochy coo. Let me know what equipment you need, and God bless." Of course our leaders don't have the gut for that. They'd just rather have our boys die one-by-one. It looks better that way...

Okay, fair enough. The question you have to ask about that is: What do you do about the reprecussions from that act?

(like for example, Pakistan saying, "You know what? We don't like these ****ing barbarians anymore. Here Mr. Bin Laden, have a nuke or three.")

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

http://www.fox.com/24/episodes/9am.htm

Scroll down to 9:58am.

This is comedy gold :P

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I will agree that life for a "normal" Iraqi citizen is probably better than it was 10 years ago, but can the same be said for a citizen of the US?Don't know if you've noticed, but the economy is booming and, old stupid "W" has accidentally presided over NOT EVEN ONE terrorist attack in the uSA since 9-11
Nobody likes war, or wants it, but we have been attacked by an enemy who says they want us all dead.
I think we all hope the ROE become less politically correct, and the he*l with the MSM.

[Ike]

my shoes protect me from tiger attacks.

[Jimminy Crimson]

LOUD NOISES!!!!








Seriously, though, this is not a (R) or (D) issue.

[olevetonahill]

This is comedy gold :P
Yup lol

[olevetonahill]

my shoes protect me from tiger attacks.
So you saying we need to run From the tiger ?

[Ike]

So you saying we need to run From the tiger ?


nope. Just that I haven't been attacked by a tiger since I bought my shoes.

[jk the sooner fan]

weak

[olevetonahill]

nope. Just that I haven't been attacked by a tiger since I bought my shoes.
And I havnt been attacked By a tiger since I bot My Mini 14 and 3 cases of ammo , so whats your point ?:D

[leavingthezoo]

with your ammo and his shoes, you could probably win the war in iraq. :D

[olevetonahill]

Ok a quick Reality check here ok ?
For those who say that we not doing good OVER there .
There are something like 50,000 plus unattended air feilds In merica , at least ok ?
Whats stopping those bastages from sending 50,000 idjits here to learn to fly small planes ? Whats stopping those said idjits from getting a small plane loading that bastage up with lots of extry fuel tanks and then flying em into all the football stadiums in America On a big sat. ?
Its pretty simple . My friends
Its the effort put out By OUR troops to hit the bastages where they LIVE .
Yall should think about that while you sit in your Ivory towers and debate this shat !

[leavingthezoo]

olevet... i like you man. but i don't agree with you all the time. past hits by these extremists show they do not attack out of convenience, but after prolonged, careful planning. it's when we forget about them they strike. i think it might be a little of both realities here. the war has the interest of some, but no way do i believe ALL who would do harm to this country are hanging out in Iraq. unless they are really, really, really stupid. neither do i believe there isn't careful, patient plotting going on somewhere. in fact, it is the patience of these people that i find scariest.

[olevetonahill]

olevet... i like you man. but i don't agree with you all the time. past hits by these extremists show they do not attack out of convenience, but after prolonged, careful planning. it's when we forget about them they strike. i think it might be a little of both realities here. the war has the interest of some, but no way do i believe ALL who would do harm to this country are hanging out in Iraq. unless they are really, really, really stupid. neither do i believe there isn't careful, patient plotting going on somewhere. in fact, it is the patience of these people that i find scariest.

Being able to Disagree in a agreeable fashion is what its all about :cool:
What i was referring to was their finances have been hit hard, their ability to hit us has been hit hard . sometimes I drink to much and My thots get muddled ;)
Oh and as an aside I like Dean and Agree with MOST of what he says Not all Most :D
Their fanaticism is what skeeres Me :eek:

[swardboy]

WHAT JOB? Yeah, I wanted to "do the job" in 1990, but guess what?! It didn't happen.

There is no "job" that's going to be finished. That's the problem. What am I missing here? Wasn't the Gulf War about getting Saddam out of Kuwait? I thought we did a GREAT JOB of accomplishing the mission. Bush 1 did exactly what he set out to do. What is happening now is NOT related to the misson of Gulf I. You should be very proud of how that one went down.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I would have to say the British group YES is the best band EVAR, Beatles #2, Led Zeppelin #3, Doors #4 and Moody Blues #5.

[olevetonahill]

Yea but the Johnnies were the best .
You know Johnny Horton , Johnny cash .
Johnny comes marching home ! ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

my shoes protect me from tiger attacks.

Exactly.

[Scott D]

Being able to Disagree in a agreeable fashion is what its all about :cool:
What i was referring to was their finances have been hit hard, their ability to hit us has been hit hard . sometimes I drink to much and My thots get muddled ;)
Oh and as an aside I like Dean and Agree with MOST of what he says Not all Most :D
Their fanaticism is what skeeres Me :eek:

Why sir does the Taliban seem to think that now they have us right where they want us?

[8timechamps]

The old "there hasn't been any attacks on US soil since 9-11, thanks to our anti-terror efforts" just doesn't hold water with me. How long prior to 9-11 did we go without a terrorist attack on the US? So, by that reasoning, couldn't Clinton have said "Terrorist didn't attack the US on my watch!". It's all so relative.

I do think it's harder for terrorists to enter the US and plan a major attack on us now. But, I don't think for a minute that it's not possible.

I've calmed down since I started this thread, but I still hold the opinion that we need to get the hell out of Iraq.

As for JK's comment about "not being able to just leave", I say "why?". As I said before, Iran poses a much greater threat than Iraq.

I am up to my armpits in financial news daily as part of my chosen career, and if you are thinking that this country is so much better off financially than we were 10 years ago, then you are fooling yourself. As with any administration, there are things that are better off, and things that are worse. So, I don't care about which party has the "best" fiscal plan...and Dean was right about this part, this ship is too big to just turn around (even over 8 years).

My issue right now is Iraq. Which ever party can present the best plan to get out of there in the least amount of time as possible...that's who I will vote for.

I think there has been some good exchange in this thread, but some posters still crack me up over how personal they take politics. Given a lively debate between two presidential hopefuls and a Thursday night college football/basketball game on ESPN, I'd take the later 10 times out of 10.

[OklahomaTuba]

They clearly don't think so. If Al Qaeda was determined to get an attack off on our soil, do you think that we could stop them?

You do realize we have foiled about 12 major attacks since 9/11, right?

Please tell me you at least know that.

[OklahomaTuba]

The old "there hasn't been any attacks on US soil since 9-11, thanks to our anti-terror efforts" just doesn't hold water with me. How long prior to 9-11 did we go without a terrorist attack on the US? So, by that reasoning, couldn't Clinton have said "Terrorist didn't attack the US on my watch!". It's all so relative.

Remember the first WTC bombing?

Do you remember the USS Cole? The African Embassies? The Assassinated US ambassador?

What was done to stop those or to respond to those???

Nothing, thats what was done.

[Mongo]

Remember the first WTC bombing?

Do you remember the USS Cole? The African Embassies? The Assassinated US ambassador?

What was done to stop those or to respond to those???

Nothing, thats what was done.

I think he meant US soil, but others across the globe dont count:rolleyes:

[8timechamps]

Remember the first WTC bombing?

Do you remember the USS Cole? The African Embassies? The Assassinated US ambassador?

What was done to stop those or to respond to those???

Nothing, thats what was done.

Was the first WTC bombing really considered a terrorist attack? (kidding)

My point is that it really wouldnt have mattered who is in the white house on 9/11, the result would have been the same.

But, if you really believe that a terrorist organization couldn't infiltrate the US given the financial and strategic planning to do so, then you maybe you put too much faith in the airport "security officers".

[Frozen Sooner]

So we haven't had any terrorist attacks on US servicemen overseas recently?

'Cause I know quite a few members of the Stryker brigade that'd disagree with that assessment.

[8timechamps]

I think he meant US soil, but others across the globe dont count:rolleyes:

Dude, relax. It wasn't meant to be personal. I promise, I wasn't attacking you. I promise.

[OklahomaTuba]

As for JK's comment about "not being able to just leave", I say "why?". As I said before, Iran poses a much greater threat than Iraq.

So you want to leave AQ and Iran the #3 largest oil producing country in the earth?

Imagine Afghanistan with trillions in oil funds before 9/11. You don't see a problem with this, huh?


I am up to my armpits in financial news daily as part of my chosen career, and if you are thinking that this country is so much better off financially than we were 10 years ago, then you are fooling yourself.
I guess you are right, if you don't count unemployment being just as low if not lower than it was 10 years ago, home ownership at its highest ever, the dow at its highest ever, and incomes and household assets being higher than anytime in history.

So except for that, you're spot on. :rolleyes:

[OklahomaTuba]

So we haven't had any terrorist attacks on US servicemen overseas recently?

'Cause I know quite a few members of the Stryker brigade that'd disagree with that assessment.

Heres the problem Mike,

Before when they were getting killed, they were getting killed with no response by us, like on the USS Coal.

Now they are getting killed fighting back in a global war being waged in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, etc.

Big difference. I thought even you could figure that one out.

[Mongo]

So we haven't had any terrorist attacks on US servicemen overseas recently?

'Cause I know quite a few members of the Stryker brigade that'd disagree with that assessment.

I was refering to the use of "we havent had an attack in the US since 9/11". Clinton's terms suffered more terror attacks without retribution than W.

Well, tell your boys that my hat is off to them. Question: are they recieving terror attacks, or fighting a war?

[Mongo]

Dude, relax. It wasn't meant to be personal. I promise, I wasn't attacking you. I promise.


I am relaxed, just having good SO banter

[OklahomaTuba]

Was the first WTC bombing really considered a terrorist attack? (kidding)

My point is that it really wouldnt have mattered who is in the white house on 9/11, the result would have been the same.

But, if you really believe that a terrorist organization couldn't infiltrate the US given the financial and strategic planning to do so, then you maybe you put too much faith in the airport "security officers".

No, it will happen, I have no doubt of that. Our borders are a mess and no one is dealing with that. So, it will happen.

And yes, it does matter who is in the WH. President Gore has one enemy, and thats global warming. What makes you think he would have treated 9/11 any different than the first trade center bombing?? Probably just let the FBI handle that one when they are busy burning people alive in small texas towns and such.

I don't see him making movies about terrorists, just how bad we all are as Americans for ****ing up the earth.

We are the enemy, not radical Islam.

[8timechamps]

So you want to leave AQ and Iran the #3 largest oil producing country in the earth?

Imagine Afghanistan with trillions in oil funds before 9/11. You don't see a problem with this, huh?


I guess you are right, if you don't count unemployment being just as low if not lower than it was 10 years ago, home ownership at its highest ever, the dow at its highest ever, and incomes and household assets being higher than anytime in history.

So except for that, you're spot on. :rolleyes:


Oh, I forgot, we are the world's police force. Right?! If not for us, the world would be in ruins. Those poor AQ troops and their underfunding.

AS for our economy, PM me your email, I'd be more than happy to provide you (count by count) where our financial system has fallen over the past 10 years. Are you serious about the Dow? What a joke. Take a look at the mean average of all major indexes over the last 6, 8 and 10 year terms relative to historic performances. Then come back and tell me "how great it is"...My clients would love to hear that. Withdraw the real estate indexing, then tell me what source you have that shows household assets being higher than ever before? I'd LOVE to see that.

If you want to go blow for blow over the financials of this country, I'd love to do that with you.

[8timechamps]

I am relaxed, just having good SO banter

I know, sorry, I guess I don't know you too well. I am rarely serious. This has actually been a fairly civil thread.

[Frozen Sooner]

I was refering to the use of "we havent had an attack in the US since 9/11". Clinton's terms suffered more terror attacks without retribution than W.

Well, tell your boys that my hat is off to them. Question: are they recieving terror attacks, or fighting a war?

Where do you draw the line?

And if it's military targets, is there a line that can be drawn between guerrilla warfare and terrorism?

Clinton did attempt retribution for terror attacks. As I recall, he was roundly criticized for blowing up aspirin factories and firing missiles at AQ camps.

[85Sooner]

I’m sure this may start a political firestorm here, but hopefully it’ll be friendly conversation with some insight (yeah, right).

Up until about 2 years ago, I was a die hard republican. Towed the party line, good and bad. I know of at least 4 elections (local and national), that I voted the party line just because of my republican affiliation.

But, I’m done. At least for this election. I’m so sick of Iraq. Yesterday, I got word that a third friend of mine was killed outside of Baghdad in a car bomb explosion. Any life taken in Iraq is not worth it. Probably never was, but now it’s become so much more personal.

I am an ex service man, and drank the kool-aid. I went to Iraq in the early 90’s, and did what my president told me to do. But here we are over a decade later, still caught up in this crap. We need to leave. Yesterday.

I’ve lost all confidence in my parties ability to wage, run, or win a war. Much less play policeman to the world. You can throw the “but if we don’t, who will? Or “If we leave now, it’ll be worse than ever!” or even still, “We must fight terror” crap in my face, but my response to you is “What is so much better about living in the USA now than 8, 10, 12 years ago?”

I’m voting democrat in the next presidential election. As a republican, I feel like we’ve had our chance. And we have dropped the ball. It’s time to see what the Dems can do. And I honestly don’t think they can do any worse.


Unfortunatley , I agree with you and disagree with you. I believe the Repubs todays are spineless. Either fight the war or get out. My choice would be to fight it and let God sort out the details. As for voting democrat your just going to get more of the same . I agree its a sad time for all in the United States, and personally believe we should be split up into The conservative/low tax/ take care of yourself side , and the namby pamby whiners who want someone else to take care of them side. Only one rule. Once yu decide which side you want obe on. You must stay there. I don't think I would have a problem with this choice and neither would alot of americans. However the socialist/communist sector of society continue to want it both ways.

[8timechamps]

Unfortunatley , I agree with you and disagree with you. I believe the Repubs todays are spineless. Either fight the war or get out. My choice would be to fight it and let God sort out the details. As for voting democrat your just going to get more of the same . I agree its a sad time for all in the United States, and personally believe we should be split up into The conservative/low tax/ take care of yourself side , and the namby pamby whiners who want someone else to take care of them side. Only one rule. Once yu decide which side you want obe on. You must stay there. I don't think I would have a problem with this choice and neither would alot of americans. However the socialist/communist sector of society continue to want it both ways.

My post was done in a frayed state of mind. I guess as I get older, I see myself a little less conservative and a little more liberal. I still consider myself Republican, and probably always will. I am (just as are most Americans) frustrated.

[OklahomaTuba]

Oh, I forgot, we are the world's police force. Right?! If not for us, the world would be in ruins. Those poor AQ troops and their underfunding.

Since when is defending ourselves considered being the world's police force?



AS for our economy, PM me your email, I'd be more than happy to provide you (count by count) where our financial system has fallen over the past 10 years. Are you serious about the Dow? What a joke. Take a look at the mean average of all major indexes over the last 6, 8 and 10 year terms relative to historic performances. Then come back and tell me "how great it is"...My clients would love to hear that. Withdraw the real estate indexing, then tell me what source you have that shows household assets being higher than ever before? I'd LOVE to see that.

If you want to go blow for blow over the financials of this country, I'd love to do that with you.

Are you comparing now to the bubble economy of the late 90's?

Cause if you are, I think thats really crazy.

Oh, and then there is this...


U.S. Household Wealth Hits Record
By James R. Hagerty and Deborah Lagomarsino Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
Word Count: 571

WASHINGTON -- Rising house and stock prices pushed the total net worth of U.S. households to a record $44.41 trillion at the end of 2003, the Federal Reserve reported.

That measure of household wealth surpassed the peak of $43.58 trillion reached in the first quarter of 2000, just before the bursting of the stock-market bubble began to put cracks in many Americans' nest eggs. The recovery in wealth reflects a rebound in the stock market as well as the rapid appreciation in home values in the past few years. The figures aren't adjusted for inflation.http://users1.wsj.com/lmda/do/checkLogin?mg=wsj-users1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1078 40687431146472.html%3Fmod%3Deconomy_lead_story_lsc

BTW, I am not economist, nor do I claim to be one, but I am an investor and I do a lot of market research for the company I work for, and everything I have seen the last few years shows a pretty damn solid economy. Sure, there are cracks here and there, but for being 5 years away from the largest attack on US soil ever and being in the middle of a war, and energy crisis, historic hurricanes, terrorist states building nukes, etc, I have to say things are pretty damn sweet.

[Vaevictis]

You do realize we have foiled about 12 major attacks since 9/11, right?

You do realize that I said that if they were as desperate and hard hit as everyone says, they wouldn't be planning these elaborate "major" attacks, right?

Elaborate attacks like the ones they plan get busted much easier than simple ones like the ones I mention. They're patient mother****ers and they don't care how many get busted as long as they *eventually* slip one through -- which they will.

Two things:
1. Desperate people aren't patient. They'd be trying simpler plans that would be harder for us to break up.
2. Clearly, if we've foiled 12 "major attacks", the line about "we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here" is complete and utter bull**** -- we are fighting them here.

[Mongo]

Where do you draw the line?

And if it's military targets, is there a line that can be drawn between guerrilla warfare and terrorism?

Clinton did attempt retribution for terror attacks. As I recall, he was roundly criticized for blowing up aspirin factories and firing missiles at AQ camps.

terrorism is the act of frightening the populous with terror tactics. They want to change our way of life to conform to theirs, if those tactics dont work, **** it, they killed a bunch of infidels and will recieve Allahs reward. Oh, by hitting military and CIVILIAN TARGETS.

I truly believe that our boys are fighting terrorists and arabic hillbillies with AK's(freedom fighters). They are doing their job with great success. But they are at war in Iraq. They are fighting AQ, which makes it a GWOT.

Clinton had a great strategy of letting terrorists suffer from migranes, so they could not plan an attack, let alone shoot a high powered rifle at US servicemen due to a splitting headache.:D

[8timechamps]

Since when is defending ourselves considered being the world's police force?



Are you comparing now to the bubble economy of the late 90's?

Cause if you are, I think thats really crazy.

I still can't see how our stint in Iraq can qualify as "defending ourselves". I guess on that point, we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for the economy, I am saying that our economy hasn't made great strides since Bush was elected, and before you jump on me for Bush-bashing, I'm not, simply saying that the last 8 to 10 years haven't been great for the US economy.

As for the link, it's what I thought. It represents growth over the last 6 years. Due in large part to the market rebound from the bust of the late 90's. Just because the word "record" is used, doesn;t mean the economy is so strong that more people are getting rich, it's because in 2000, more people were killed by the bust that it took 5 years to recover.

I work with a U.S. economist/analyst, and he released a report on Friday that addressed the issue of a sluggish economy over the last decade. Money and economies are moving alright, just not here. It's in Asia.

Also in that link was this little phrase "The figures aren't adjusted for inflation."...if you did that math, that "record" wouldn't be as appealing as many think.

[8timechamps]

Alright, I'm done with my "big boy" talk. I'm going back to telling stories about people farting in the elevator.

But seriously Tuba, if you want to talk more about economic issues, send me your email. It may sound wrong, but I love talking about that stuff.

[OklahomaTuba]

You do realize that I said that if they were as desperate and hard hit as everyone says, they wouldn't be planning these elaborate "major" attacks, right?

Maybe the problem is they have to be elaborate to escape the security that has been put into place???

Terrosts go for the big bang, thus the terrorist label.

[OklahomaTuba]

I still can't see how our stint in Iraq can qualify as "defending ourselves". I guess on that point, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Well, one just has to look at the reason we went there in the first place, to take away what everyone thought was a threat, Saddam and his WMD.

We had more reason to go into Iraq than we had to go into WW1, and that is a fact.



As for the economy, I am saying that our economy hasn't made great strides since Bush was elected, and before you jump on me for Bush-bashing, I'm not, simply saying that the last 8 to 10 years haven't been great for the US economy.

As for the link, it's what I thought. It represents growth over the last 6 years. Due in large part to the market rebound from the bust of the late 90's. Just because the word "record" is used, doesn;t mean the economy is so strong that more people are getting rich, it's because in 2000, more people were killed by the bust that it took 5 years to recover.

I work with a U.S. economist/analyst, and he released a report on Friday that addressed the issue of a sluggish economy over the last decade. Money and economies are moving alright, just not here. It's in Asia.

Also in that link was this little phrase "The figures aren't adjusted for inflation."...if you did that math, that "record" wouldn't be as appealing as many think.

Well, I don't know how the economy can be considered sluggish over the last 10 years when looking at everything from the tech boom to the bust and to the energy and housing boom and record unemployment, but maybe thats just me. ;)

But sure, email some info, I am game to see [email protected]

[OklahomaTuba]

Alright, I'm done with my "big boy" talk. I'm going back to telling stories about people farting in the elevator.

But seriously Tuba, if you want to talk more about economic issues, send me your email. It may sound wrong, but I love talking about that stuff.

no problem man, always a good thing to debate these things, its healthy.

I just do not think anything good can come from raising the white flag and running away in Iraq.

The LAST thing we need is another Afghanistan in the middle east with the access to oil and the money that would help fund global terror.

Just allowing Iran to have influence over that oil would help destroy our way of life, which they say is their #1 mission in life right now.

Just look what is going on in Venezuela right now, Iran and Venezuela are conspiring against us.

We must defeat this, or it will defeat us. We need to come together on this stuff, and remember that not paying attention to this kind of evil lead to 9.11 in the first place.

[Vaevictis]

Maybe the problem is they have to be elaborate to escape the security that has been put into place???

Simple plans that don't get busted involve one or two people, who don't have to smuggle a goddamned thing.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve some black muslim from Africa who gets a job at a high school as a janitor, who goes into the janitorial closet, puts all of the bleach and ammonia supplies in a big ol' trash can, and carts them to the HVAC system and poisons all the students with them.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a terrorist who flies an RC helicopter loaded with home-made nitroglycerin into the bright yellow propane tank in the middle of a refinery.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a pair of pilots who go to Max Westheimer Airport on gameday, hijack an executive jet that someone going to the game brought in, and fly it into Gaylord Memorial Stadium a minute after take-off.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a crazy university engineering student who **** up carrying unstable explosives and blows himself up outside of the football stadium.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a couple of people who drive a rented truck under the WTC building and blow it up.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve two guys, a Ryder truck, and explosives made out of every day materials in a place (OKC) and on a target (Federal Building) you'd never expect.

Elaborate plans involve fifty people, 10 airplanes flying over the Atlantic, and require the terrorists to smuggle explosives onto the plane. Elaborate plans get busted.

[OklahomaTuba]

Simple plans that don't get busted involve one or two people, who don't have to smuggle a goddamned thing.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve some black muslim from Africa who gets a job at a high school as a janitor, who goes into the janitorial closet, puts all of the bleach and ammonia supplies in a big ol' trash can, and carts them to the HVAC system and poisons all the students with them.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a terrorist who flies an RC helicopter loaded with home-made nitroglycerin into the bright yellow propane tank in the middle of a refinery.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a pair of pilots who go to Max Westheimer Airport on gameday, hijack an executive jet that someone going to the game brought in, and fly it into Gaylord Memorial Stadium a minute after take-off.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a crazy university engineering student who **** up carrying unstable explosives and blows himself up outside of the football stadium.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a couple of people who drive a rented truck under the WTC building and blow it up.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve two guys, a Ryder truck, and explosives made out of every day materials in a place (OKC) and on a target (Federal Building) you'd never expect.

Elaborate plans involve fifty people, 10 airplanes flying over the Atlantic, and require the terrorists to smuggle explosives onto the plane. Elaborate plans get busted.

Well then, its a good thing we have things like the NSA wiretapping thing going on, and other counter terrorist things going on.

Maybe thats one of the reasons many of these things have not happened.

[Vaevictis]

Well then, its a good thing we have things like the NSA wiretapping thing going on, and other counter terrorist things going on.

Maybe thats one of the reasons many of these things have not happened.

I expect that our efforts wrt wiretapping, funds tracing, and other counter-terrorism things have something to do with it.

"Fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" ain't one of them. They're quite capable of both, else we wouldn't have busted any attempted major attacks.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Somehow, I totally missed American Idol tonight. Did they have any good performers, or just the usual schlock they feature in the early rounds?

[FaninAma]

There is no good way to approach a situation in which a group of people hate your guts with a burning passion. Add to this the fact that these are not reasonable people for whom our cultural values of peace, love for human life and compromise hold great value. And the sad thing is that there probably won't be a change in their deep rooted hatred and thirst for blood anytime soon.

I can guarantee you that if we weren't still in Iraq a great portion of the muslim society in the region would still hate us. And whether we are in Iraq or not there is a good chance that eventually there is going to be a successful terrorist attack on the West or the US in the future that will claim many times the number of soldier's lives that have been lost in the Iraqi war to date.

Our presence in the area offers two advantages: It ties up a lot of the enemy's manpower and resources and it allows us to gather intelligence about their operations in order to develop new ways to combat their terrorist infra-structure. With our military camped out on Iran and Syria's border how much more intelligence are we gathering on these 2 scumbag regimes as opposed to Saddam still being in power? Intelligence gathering is the only thing that will lessen the chances in the near future for a succesful, crippling attack on US soil.

I also feel a military presence in the region with a quick strike capability will lessen the odds that one of the regimes in the area will risk being tied to a terrorist plot on US soil. If it takes a military presence like the one we have in Korea to keep the lunatics under a sembalnce of control then it is well worth the price.

The "Let's Hide Under The Bed And Hope They Go Away" mentality is certainly a recipe for diaster based on the fact that even the limited attack on 9-11 severely crippled our economy. A more widespread attack due to the fact that we weeren't actively engaging these Satanic groups would be devestating.

[C&CDean]

Simple plans that don't get busted involve one or two people, who don't have to smuggle a goddamned thing.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve some black muslim from Africa who gets a job at a high school as a janitor, who goes into the janitorial closet, puts all of the bleach and ammonia supplies in a big ol' trash can, and carts them to the HVAC system and poisons all the students with them.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a terrorist who flies an RC helicopter loaded with home-made nitroglycerin into the bright yellow propane tank in the middle of a refinery.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a pair of pilots who go to Max Westheimer Airport on gameday, hijack an executive jet that someone going to the game brought in, and fly it into Gaylord Memorial Stadium a minute after take-off.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a crazy university engineering student who **** up carrying unstable explosives and blows himself up outside of the football stadium.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve a couple of people who drive a rented truck under the WTC building and blow it up.

Simple plans that don't get busted involve two guys, a Ryder truck, and explosives made out of every day materials in a place (OKC) and on a target (Federal Building) you'd never expect.

Elaborate plans involve fifty people, 10 airplanes flying over the Atlantic, and require the terrorists to smuggle explosives onto the plane. Elaborate plans get busted.

Dude, it almost sounds like you've been attending some meetings. Anything you wanna share?

[Vaevictis]

Dude, it almost sounds like you've been attending some meetings. Anything you wanna share?

Grandfather was an AF officer who was convinced we were going to have a nuclear war and taught my father survival and how to make weapons and explosives out of everyday objects.

Best man at my parents wedding is an expert on terrorism. Father studied it extensively in college. Family friends were Marine Recon, Special Forces, SAS, CIA, etc.

You grow up in a house where people like that are the ones making the dinner conversation, you start asking yourself "How would I attack this building and how do I get out of here if that happens" when you're out and about.

[OklahomaTuba]

There is no good way to approach a situation in which a group of people hate your guts with a burning passion. Add to this the fact that these are not reasonable people for whom our cultural values of peace, love for human life and compromise hold great value. And the sad thing is that there probably won't be a change in their deep rooted hatred and thirst for blood anytime soon.

I can guarantee you that if we weren't still in Iraq a great portion of the muslim society in the region would still hate us. And whether we are in Iraq or not there is a good chance that eventually there is going to be a successful terrorist attack on the West or the US in the future that will claim many times the number of soldier's lives that have been lost in the Iraqi war to date.

Our presence in the area offers two advantages: It ties up a lot of the enemy's manpower and resources and it allows us to gather intelligence about their operations in order to develop new ways to combat their terrorist infra-structure. With our military camped out on Iran and Syria's border how much more intelligence are we gathering on these 2 scumbag regimes as opposed to Saddam still being in power? Intelligence gathering is the only thing that will lessen the chances in the near future for a succesful, crippling attack on US soil.

I also feel a military presence in the region with a quick strike capability will lessen the odds that one of the regimes in the area will risk being tied to a terrorist plot on US soil. If it takes a military presence like the one we have in Korea to keep the lunatics under a sembalnce of control then it is well worth the price.

The "Let's Hide Under The Bed And Hope They Go Away" mentality is certainly a recipe for diaster based on the fact that even the limited attack on 9-11 severely crippled our economy. A more widespread attack due to the fact that we weeren't actively engaging these Satanic groups would be devestating.

All fantastic, common sense points. Unfortunately some people don't have enough sense to understand this, and prefer defeat and retreat.

[C&CDean]

Grandfather was an AF officer who was convinced we were going to have a nuclear war and taught my father survival and how to make weapons and explosives out of everyday objects.

Best man at my parents wedding is an expert on terrorism. Father studied it extensively in college. Family friends were Marine Recon, Special Forces, SAS, CIA, etc.

You grow up in a house where people like that are the ones making the dinner conversation, you start asking yourself "How would I attack this building and how do I get out of here if that happens" when you're out and about.
Ah, so you come by your paranoia honestly. I'm cool with that.