IS IT REALLY all Muhammad Ali's fault?

[TUSooner]

Reading complaints about classless U Fla players gives me an oppportuinity to raise this old proposition again:

Taunting, boasting, arrogant posing, end-zone dances, sack dances, even tackle-for-3-yard-gain dances, and most of all, the obsession with "respect" - getting it, of course, never giving it...
I say it's Muhammad Ali's fault. Ali didn't invent arrogance and its byproducts. This stuff has always been around, and almost always been frowned upon. But Ali made it acceptable -- with the help of intimidated media toadies who didn't want to sound out-of-date, out-of-touch, and racist. Ali made "attitude" a model for the behavior of many young folk. As a result, respect is a notably rare commmodity in sports today. (Isn't there a book or film or something out now that "credits" Ali with inventing Hip-Hop?)

That is why I will never share the adoration most people seem to have for Ali. I'll pity him for his current infirmities, and I'll admit he's the greatest boxer evar. But I cannot admire his role in shaping the modern culture, in or out of sports.

I admit I don't about Ali's private life, but it's his public life that did the damage (so I hold).

Am I wrong? Please show me if I am.

[soonernija]

Reading complaints about classless U Fla players gives me an oppportuinity to raise this old proposition again:

Taunting, boasting, arrogant posing, end-zone dances, sack dances, even tackle-for-3-yard-gain dances, and most of all, the obsession with "respect" - getting it, of course, never giving it...
I say it's Muhammad Ali's fault. Ali didn't invent arrogance and its byproducts. This stuff has always been around, and almost always been frowned upon. But Ali made it acceptable -- with the help of intimidated media toadies who didn't want to sound out-of-date, out-of-touch, and racist. Ali made "attitude" a model for the behavior of many young folk. As a result, respect is a notably rare commmodity in sports today. (Isn't there a book or film or something out now that "credits" Ali with inventing Hip-Hop?)

That is why I will never share the adoration most people seem to have for Ali. I'll pity him for his current infirmities, and I'll admit he's the greatest boxer evar. But I cannot admire his role in shaping the modern culture, in or out of sports.

I admit I don't about Ali's private life, but it's his public life that did the damage (so I hold).

Am I wrong? Please show me if I am.


No. It's your fault.

[ouwapiti]

well said TU...........my feelings exactly!!!!!..i cant believe he allows himself to be put in the public's eye these days.....that coin toss ceremony was hard to watch......

[fadada1]

i blame bear bryant. he invented showmanship from what i understand.

[TexasLidig8r]

Well.. to play the role of...

http://www.londonstimes.us/toons/cartoons/Simeon_DevilsAdvocate.jpg

The bravado, the in your face attitude exhibited by Cassius Clay is only poorly reflected in pale shadows by the pretenders today.

You go to the punks today and say.. ok.. we understand you switched your religion to Islam... now go to war or we will strip away the title from you and throw you in the hoosegow.. most would slink away. Clay stood behind his religious convictions and paid a price for it.

Put Clay back in the very tumultuous 60s in America... the race riots and Civil Rights were not just reflected in history books.. but you were living the time... On June 19, 1967, an all-white jury in Houston found Clay guilty for refusing to submit to the military draft. Although the standard sentence for such a charge was 18 months, Clay was given five years, his passport was confiscated, and he was stripped of the heavyweight title ... eventually leading to three-and-a-half years of inactivity in the prime of his athletic life. All because he stood up for what he believed in.

As Clay explained during his exile: "I'm expected to go overseas to help free people in South Vietnam and at the same time my people here are being brutalized, hell no! I would like to say to those of you who think I have lost so much; I have gained everything. I have peace of heart; I have a clear, free conscience. And I am proud. I wake up happy, I go to bed happy, and if I go to jail I'll go to jail happy."

Clay, off camera, was reported to be an extremely articulate, intelligent person.

Was he a saint? No, of course not. But, he has/had something that the pretenders today do not have.. a purpose, conviction, the strength and will to stand behind that in which he believed.

If you have to blame something or someone for the punks' attitude today.. blame it on the media for its whoring of so called "personalities" over the substance of the games.. blame it on parenting gone bad.. blame it on society's largess in refusing to hold individuals accountable for their own misdeeds.. blame it on the rupturing of the family unit in the African American community where the illegitimacy rate approaches 60%.. blame it on.. hell.. blame it on US for wanting to be entertained by characters instead of witnesses to greatness. We elevate the individual while decrying the team. We laugh at the coaches who do want to instill a sense of family, of cohesiveness on his/her team and only care about... win big or leave.

And we wonder... while individuals continue to shower themselves with self appointed grandiosness all the while being subsidized by corporations that we support with our consumerism..why does it continue to happen?

[Partial Qualifier]

If you have to blame something or someone for the punks' attitude today.. blame it on the media for its whoring of so called "personalities" over the substance of the games.. blame it on parenting gone bad..

right on

[Vic n Tulsa]

Well.. to play the role of...

http://www.londonstimes.us/toons/cartoons/Simeon_DevilsAdvocate.jpg

The bravado, the in your face attitude exhibited by Cassius Clay is only poorly reflected in pale shadows by the pretenders today.

You go to the punks today and say.. ok.. we understand you switched your religion to Islam... now go to war or we will strip away the title from you and throw you in the hoosegow.. most would slink away. Clay stood behind his religious convictions and paid a price for it.

Put Clay back in the very tumultuous 60s in America... the race riots and Civil Rights were not just reflected in history books.. but you were living the time... On June 19, 1967, an all-white jury in Houston found Clay guilty for refusing to submit to the military draft. Although the standard sentence for such a charge was 18 months, Clay was given five years, his passport was confiscated, and he was stripped of the heavyweight title ... eventually leading to three-and-a-half years of inactivity in the prime of his athletic life. All because he stood up for what he believed in.

As Clay explained during his exile: "I'm expected to go overseas to help free people in South Vietnam and at the same time my people here are being brutalized, hell no! I would like to say to those of you who think I have lost so much; I have gained everything. I have peace of heart; I have a clear, free conscience. And I am proud. I wake up happy, I go to bed happy, and if I go to jail I'll go to jail happy."

Clay, off camera, was reported to be an extremely articulate, intelligent person.

Was he a saint? No, of course not. But, he has/had something that the pretenders today do not have.. a purpose, conviction, the strength and will to stand behind that in which he believed.

If you have to blame something or someone for the punks' attitude today.. blame it on the media for its whoring of so called "personalities" over the substance of the games.. blame it on parenting gone bad.. blame it on society's largess in refusing to hold individuals accountable for their own misdeeds.. blame it on the rupturing of the family unit in the African American community where the illegitimacy rate approaches 60%.. blame it on.. hell.. blame it on US for wanting to be entertained by characters instead of witnesses to greatness. We elevate the individual while decrying the team. We laugh at the coaches who do want to instill a sense of family, of cohesiveness on his/her team and only care about... win big or leave.

And we wonder... while individuals continue to shower themselves with self appointed grandiosness all the while being subsidized by corporations that we support with our consumerism..why does it continue to happen?

Very well said, I agree with your analysis of Ali. Name me one of these so-called 'punks' of today that showed the courage and dignity of Cassius Clay back in the 60's. His arrogance and showmanship was acceptable to me because he delivered when it mattered. For all his boasting and egotism he displayed back then, people admired him because he always delivered on his promises. An athlete nowadays is too eager to boast before he has the credentials to legitmize that showmanship. I can only think of Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods of being equal in stature in their respective sports to equate to Cassius Clay. Only I just can't see them going toe to toe with Howard Cosell as Ali did so many times!

[yermom]

i hate agreeing with Lid

if you are going to blame anyone it's the lowest common denominator, the people that watch NASCAR for the crashes and buy The Enquirer

you could blame the media, but they are just giving the people what they want

[soonerhillbilly]

Wholy cow that was hardcore, Lid.



Boomer Sooner !

[Jimminy Crimson]

...the people that watch NASCAR for the crashes...

There's more to NASCAR than the crashes? :confused: ;)

[GulfCoastBamaFan]

This is much too deep for a football board.

Accordingly, I blame it all on this guy:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2130/040820terrellowensvmedvkj9.jpg

[bluedogok]

Billy "White Shoes" Johnson is the responsible party in football :D

[ruf/nekdad]

Its the pledges.

[TUSooner]

That was a good post, Lid. You could get the Devil off with a slap on the wrist.
I certainly agree that blame must be shared. We get the culture we ask for (and the one we support with our entertainment dollars). PT Barnum and HL Mencken are nodding in agreement ssomewhere.
But, just to be a little stubborn, I'll emphasize your first line, which affirms that the "bravado, the in your face attitude" of which I complain is indeed a reflection, though perhaps a distorted one, of that exhibited by Muhammad Ali.

[Seamus]

Yes, let's play the blame game. Let's blame someone, anyone -- be it the liberals, the conservatives, the blacks, the whites, Muhammed Ali, MTV, the schools, the government, rock stars, athletes, anyone but who should be blamed -- irresponsible parents bringing up irresponsible children/bastidges.

Let's roll up culpability and personal responsibility in a burlap sack and bludgeon them, toss 'em in the back of a '51 Buick, drive them out to a lonely, deserted field in the middle of the night, and pump a few slugs into the back of their skulls. That's why we're where we're at -- nobody accepts responsibility for their actions. It's always someone else's fault.

I swear, you have to have a license to drive, a license to get married, one to practice law and one to practice medicine, to own a business. Why don't they require a license to become a parent? You start making people pass a test to earn the privilege of being a parent, and you'll have fewer bad parents and fewer ****ed-up kids.

[/rant]

[Seamus]

p.s.: pause for effect ... I'm dead serious.

[soonerthanu]

Look at the big brain on Lid

[Collier11]

Very well said, I agree with your analysis of Ali. Name me one of these so-called 'punks' of today that showed the courage and dignity of Cassius Clay back in the 60's. His arrogance and showmanship was acceptable to me because he delivered when it mattered. For all his boasting and egotism he displayed back then, people admired him because he always delivered on his promises. An athlete nowadays is too eager to boast before he has the credentials to legitmize that showmanship. I can only think of Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods of being equal in stature in their respective sports to equate to Cassius Clay. Only I just can't see them going toe to toe with Howard Cosell as Ali did so many times!


But kellen winslow is a F*cking soldier, he can say what he wants...right!! :D

[Funky G]

Reading complaints about classless U Fla players gives me an oppportuinity to raise this old proposition again:

Taunting, boasting, arrogant posing, end-zone dances, sack dances, even tackle-for-3-yard-gain dances, and most of all, the obsession with "respect" - getting it, of course, never giving it...
I say it's Muhammad Ali's fault. Ali didn't invent arrogance and its byproducts. This stuff has always been around, and almost always been frowned upon. But Ali made it acceptable -- with the help of intimidated media toadies who didn't want to sound out-of-date, out-of-touch, and racist. Ali made "attitude" a model for the behavior of many young folk. As a result, respect is a notably rare commmodity in sports today. (Isn't there a book or film or something out now that "credits" Ali with inventing Hip-Hop?)

That is why I will never share the adoration most people seem to have for Ali. I'll pity him for his current infirmities, and I'll admit he's the greatest boxer evar. But I cannot admire his role in shaping the modern culture, in or out of sports.

I admit I don't about Ali's private life, but it's his public life that did the damage (so I hold).

Am I wrong? Please show me if I am.

YOU ARE RIGHT. Ali perfected poor sportsmanship, which was slowly masked by the civil rights supporters to be defined as "Black sense of self". Joe Frazier knocked a lot of that out of him, however, in their first fight. But, it didn't take long for Muhammad to revert back to his insecure self promotion. While he was a model for the black political movement, it cannot be argued that he was a shameless self promoter, and often at the expense of others via personal insults and other petty behaviors.

[SouthFortySooner]

There is a reason taunting is a penalty. It's just wrong. I wish the Sooners would wait until their in the game before they start it. [subdued rant]

[TUSooner]

Yes, let's play the blame game. Let's blame someone, anyone -- be it the liberals, the conservatives, the blacks, the whites, Muhammed Ali, MTV, the schools, the government, rock stars, athletes, anyone but who should be blamed -- irresponsible parents bringing up irresponsible children/bastidges.

Let's roll up culpability and personal responsibility in a burlap sack and bludgeon them, toss 'em in the back of a '51 Buick, drive them out to a lonely, deserted field in the middle of the night, and pump a few slugs into the back of their skulls. That's why we're where we're at -- nobody accepts responsibility for their actions. It's always someone else's fault.

I swear, you have to have a license to drive, a license to get married, one to practice law and one to practice medicine, to own a business. Why don't they require a license to become a parent? You start making people pass a test to earn the privilege of being a parent, and you'll have fewer bad parents and fewer ****ed-up kids.

[/rant]
And your point is....
Blame everybody? Blame nobody? Don't we have to blame somebody for starting the blame game?

;)

[freshchris05]

yeah ali was the first sob to be cocky and proud of his talents yep it all starts there... he deserves everything thats happened to him... its payback from god... yep the first cocky sob.....

[possumfat]

I must admit that feeling of disrespect toward Ali due to his behavior has always stuck with me, though I do respect his talent and ability. I just prefer to form that opinion myself without the actual person telling me.

[C&CDean]

yeah ali was the first sob to be cocky and proud of his talents yep it all starts there... he deserves everything thats happened to him... its payback from god... yep the first cocky sob.....

You must be what, 18?

If you didn't live and were old enough to understand what was going on back in Ali's day, you really shouldn't comment about it. What Ali did back then was so brash, so controversial, no new that people didn't know how to take it. My dad, a 3 war vet, loved Cassius Clay. My dad hated Muhammad Ali and all he stood for.

Yes, the acceptance of taunting (and we're not talking about Babe Ruth calling his shot here) began with Ali. Today's punks have just evolved it into a stupid hip-hop culture thang.

Nothing would warm the cockles of my cold, calloused heart more than seeing Terrell or Ocho Cinco or any of the other ignorant wannabes have a linebacker behead them while they're doing their crap. And I mean be-head them. Take them out of the league. Forever. They've ruined it.

[fadada1]

Its the pledges.
heh. i totally agree.

[ashley]

well said TU...........my feelings exactly!!!!!..i cant believe he allows himself to be put in the public's eye these days.....that coin toss ceremony was hard to watch......

What kind of statement is that. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Desert Sapper]

I would not solely place the onus for unsportsmanship in modern American sports on Ali. It is likely Ali that most directly opened this form of behavior to the public, but it wasn't exactly new behavior prior to that. As I said in the other thread, I don't think the publicity makes the conduct any more unsportsmanlike.

Some people, especially insecure people, feel the need to revel in any success they have. Sports provide a dramatic stage for those that work hard enough and strive enough to achieve success. Some people just handle it differently. Kids (which is what I consider them until they take on the mantle of adult responsibility) that are not properly taught to respect other athletes in competition will not do so.

The young men on Monday night, like many of their contemporaries in NCAA Division IA football, aspire to be like the NFL players that they idolize. What do we see every Sunday (and sometimes Thursday, Sunday Night, and Monday) from players when they have success in the NFL? Every position has a cute little dance. The DL does the squatting move. The receiver does the football dance in the endzone. The RB does the in-your-face shimmy. The other RB frontflips into the endzone (which sometimes scores points). The DB did the high step after the INT and others have imitated. It's just a status of the sport. Players will always want to be like those in the level above them. Ultimately, they all want to be like the NFL players. As long as we allow the out of control celebration in the NFL, the young players will imitate it.

The NCAA can control it fairly easily with penalties, sanctions, and scholarship limitations. I'm just not sure they have the conviction to do so. It starts and ends in the home. If mama tells her baby not to do that embarassing stuff, he won't. If mama does a shimmy dance in everybody's face when baby scores a TD, well...

[yur-out]

And your point is....
Blame everybody? Blame nobody? Don't we have to blame somebody for starting the blame game?

;)
How do you spell blame?....?.....E..S..P..N!! :eek:

How do you make an ESPN highlight? By being more outlandish than the next guy.;)

[freshchris05]

You must be what, 18?

If you didn't live and were old enough to understand what was going on back in Ali's day, you really shouldn't comment about it. What Ali did back then was so brash, so controversial, no new that people didn't know how to take it. My dad, a 3 war vet, loved Cassius Clay. My dad hated Muhammad Ali and all he stood for.

Yes, the acceptance of taunting (and we're not talking about Babe Ruth calling his shot here) began with Ali. Today's punks have just evolved it into a stupid hip-hop culture thang.

Nothing would warm the cockles of my cold, calloused heart more than seeing Terrell or Ocho Cinco or any of the other ignorant wannabes have a linebacker behead them while they're doing their crap. And I mean be-head them. Take them out of the league. Forever. They've ruined it.


Im older than 18, im not 50, but i know about ali... and im glad i didnt live in the 60's because being black in the 60's didnt look fun;)

If you want to talk about taunting go back further... because a man named jack johnson was doing it long before ali...

I dont enjoy taunting in sports but its been around forever. As far as hating all ali stands for i would like an explaination with limited sarcasm...

Whether you agree with it or not ali's pride help to make alot of blacks proud to be black... When you are getting put down and treated as inferior and some one on such a high stage lets you know its ok to be you, it helps...

Like i said before i dont like taunting but i respect ali and he is one of my favorite athletes and historical figure of all time...

[Seamus]

Im older than 18, im not 50, but i know about ali... and im glad i didnt live in the 60's because being black in the 60's didnt look fun;)



I was black in the '60s but I'm white now. :cool:

Seriously, I love Ali. Mum hated the lad, but I liked him a lot. And it really didn't start with Ali. He was just the first high-profile black man to say "boo." Do a little reading on Ty Cobb. One could argue it started with that bastard.

[wishbonesooner]

What really caused Ali to be disliked bywhite America was not his boasting and bravado. It was because he was the first black American to tell the white man publicly to kiss his ***, and to be so talented that no one could beat him.

[OUmillenium]

Yes, it's Ali's fault. But someone else would have come along and been the harbinger of poor sportsmanship if he had not been the first.

Would spek you but I gotta spread some around!

[Desert Sapper]

Do a little reading on Ty Cobb. One could argue it started with that bastard.

He was definitely a SOB by all acounts, but I'm almost certain taunting and unsportsmanship has been around longer than that. Maybe it started with the first organized olympics. Maybe it's even older than that. Regardless, idiots make idiots of themselves and always have.

[Scott D]

The ignorance in attempting to blame Ali is laughable at best.

While we're at it, let's blame warriors back in a pre-medieval times whom tended to go to battle naked in an excited state. Screaming and yelling taunts and curses at each other. Certainly that was the fault of a man whom wasn't to be born for nearly 1800 years later.

As for Ali selling himself in public. Hello, he was a boxer. You don't get much more individual when it comes to a sport. To sell tickets, fighters have to in some way sell themselves to bring in more people via the gate and ppv.

Dean's far more on point than anyone else in this matter. However, 'feeling disrespected', showing 'classlessness and excessive arrogance' dates back to wars and battles from a pre-christianity era. It's called being human.

[BoomerJack]

The TexLid hits the nail on the head IMO.

And if your old enough to remember, it was the WR's in the NFL that really began that crap. One did not see much of it when guys named Butkus, Nischke, Huff and Curtis were playing defense.

[Scott D]

you can apply that to pretty much any sport.

How many of today's hitters would stand around and admire a home run if they hit it off of a Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, or Bob Feller. All three of those guys would have aimed their next pitch for that showboater's head.

[C&CDean]

What really caused Ali to be disliked bywhite America was not his boasting and bravado. It was because he was the first black American to tell the white man publicly to kiss his ***, and to be so talented that no one could beat him.

Black didn't have much to do with it. My pop loved Sonny Liston and loved Cassius Clay even more when he knocked Sonny out. And he loved Sugar Ray Robinson. What ****ed it all up was more the Islam/draft dodging piece. To veterans, a guy who chickens out of going to war is as bad as it gets. To christians, a guy dropping Jesus and adopting Mohammad is as bad as it gets.

[Seamus]

Oh, boy ... the Falwell chant begins to pick up volume ...

[TUSooner]

Black didn't have much to do with it. My pop loved Sonny Liston and loved Cassius Clay even more when he knocked Sonny out. And he loved Sugar Ray Robinson. What ****ed it all up was more the Islam/draft dodging piece. To veterans, a guy who chickens out of going to war is as bad as it gets. To christians, a guy dropping Jesus and adopting Mohammad is as bad as it gets.

I'm with your pop on that.

I add:
Ali gets too much credit for "standing up for what he believed in." What if what you stand up for is 100% crap? Must I still respect you? Nazis, Bolsheviks, and Islamo-fascists stand up for what they believe. Besides, lots of people have suffered worse injustices and stood up for better causes in much classier ways than Ali. (Jackie Robinson comes immediately to mind.)

More to the point, although some have offered justifications for Ali, nobody has yet shown me that Ali was not the pioneer, trailblazer, and model for the poor sportsmanship of today.

[TUSooner]

The ignorance in attempting to blame Ali is laughable at best.

While we're at it, let's blame warriors back in a pre-medieval times whom tended to go to battle naked in an excited state. Screaming and yelling taunts and curses at each other. Certainly that was the fault of a man whom wasn't to be born for nearly 1800 years later.

As for Ali selling himself in public. Hello, he was a boxer. You don't get much more individual when it comes to a sport. To sell tickets, fighters have to in some way sell themselves to bring in more people via the gate and ppv.

Dean's far more on point than anyone else in this matter. However, 'feeling disrespected', showing 'classlessness and excessive arrogance' dates back to wars and battles from a pre-christianity era. It's called being human.

Ali was a trend-setter; that's not laughable ignorance, mon frere.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

I was black in the '60s but I'm white now. :cool:

Seriously, I love Ali. Mum hated the lad, but I liked him a lot. And it really didn't start with Ali. He was just the first high-profile black man to say "boo." Do a little reading on Ty Cobb. One could argue it started with that bastard.


TU was talking about Ali being the guy that made taunting a media event to watch. Ty Cobb may have been a prick, but the point is that I have to research it to find out.

Ali's antics are well known because the media fell all over themselves to broadcast his boastfulness. He was brash and, many times, funny. It equated to entertaining news.

Ali does seem to mark a shift in the behavior of the "on camera" athlete.

[Scott D]

Ali was a trend-setter; that's not laughable ignorance, mon frere.

you've yet to corroborate a viable reasoning between individual sports that rely on promotion versus team sports which don't rely on individual promotion. Boxing has always been about selling an image. You could just as well blame Joe Namath for the attention whoring in the NFL as you could blame Ali.

I mean really, your argument is akin to me blaming Elvis for the existence of the Backstreet Boys and N'sync.

[leavingthezoo]

i heard it started with david and goliath. if david hadn't taunted the giant until his eyes were blurry with tears, he would've seen that first stone coming and ducked. :P

[freshchris05]

Black didn't have much to do with it. My pop loved Sonny Liston and loved Cassius Clay even more when he knocked Sonny out. And he loved Sugar Ray Robinson. What ****ed it all up was more the Islam/draft dodging piece. To veterans, a guy who chickens out of going to war is as bad as it gets. To christians, a guy dropping Jesus and adopting Mohammad is as bad as it gets.


I respect all vets, my uncle is a vet, but seriously carrying a gun and risking your life and then coming home and all you get is " We dont serve your kind here." Coward? no.. Practical...


If it were me i'd say f*ck it too... but its not like he went to canada...

Think about it this way :

"When I came back to my native country, after all the stories about Hitler, I couldn't ride in the front of the bus. I had to go to the back door. I couldn't live where I wanted. I wasn't invited to shake hands with Hitler, but I wasn't invited to the White House to shake hands with the President, either." Jesse Owens, after returning from the 1936 Olympics

[Dio]

Oh, boy ... the Falwell chant begins to pick up volume ...

Better the Falwell chant than the Osama chant. How many infidels has Jerry beheaded lately? How many planes has he flown into office buildings?

[TUSooner]

I respect all vets, my uncle is a vet, but seriously carrying a gun and risking your life and then coming home and all you get is " We dont serve your kind here." Coward? no.. Practical...


If it were me i'd say f*ck it too... but its not like he went to canada...

Think about it this way :

"When I came back to my native country, after all the stories about Hitler, I couldn't ride in the front of the bus. I had to go to the back door. I couldn't live where I wanted. I wasn't invited to shake hands with Hitler, but I wasn't invited to the White House to shake hands with the President, either." Jesse Owens, after returning from the 1936 Olympics

Yeah, and that Jessie talked some TRASH, too !!

not

[Desert Sapper]

You could just as well blame Joe Namath for the attention whoring in the NFL as you could blame Ali.

Agree. Joe Namath was an egotistical jackass, too.


I mean really, your argument is akin to me blaming Elvis for the existence of the Backstreet Boys and N'sync.

Why do you hate Elvis?:D

[TUSooner]

you've yet to corroborate a viable reasoning between individual sports that rely on promotion versus team sports which don't rely on individual promotion. Boxing has always been about selling an image. You could just as well blame Joe Namath for the attention whoring in the NFL as you could blame Ali.

I mean really, your argument is akin to me blaming Elvis for the existence of the Backstreet Boys and N'sync.

My question was meant to be provocative, so it exaggerates a bit. And you are certainly not unreasonable.

However, I don't see the need to "corroborate" individual sports with team sports. If you are saying that Ali was justified by being in an individual sport, OK. But that doesn't address his influence on others in other sports. Not every boxer promoted himself like Ali, and not every Ali imitator is a boxer.

And you CAN blame Elvis for the Backstreet Boys. And you can blame Elvis for the Beatles; and you can blame the Beatles for almost every rock band, good or bad, since 1964, and for a lot other of things too, not all of which are universally regarded as good. People copy people; trends are set; Ali, Elvis, & the Beatles set trends.

Namath? His trend might have been "pimpy white guys," but not disrespect for opponents. He was flashy off the field, but I don't recall him ever being unsportsmanlike on the field, except maybe for his prediction that the Jets would beat the Colts. (I was for the Colts. :( )

I realize, of course, that Ali was part of a bigger picture that included Elvis and the Beatles and all kinds of other new, radical, and scary stuff, so I don't say Ali was the anti-Christ or that he is singlehandedly responsible for every bad act of every follower and imitator (some of whom may not even know who they imitate). But I am old enough to have seen Ali in the light of his times and to have followed sports before-Ali and after-Ali. There was a difference between before and after, and Ali was a difference-maker. So I still regard Ali as the first major athlete who "legitimized" showboating, arrogance, and disrepect for one's opponent in modern times, and who served as the model and trend setter for many imitators in all sports.

If everybody agreed with me, life would be boring. You and Lidi make a nice defense of Ali, and lots of people will always admire him because of his influence, or despite it. I don't propose anything very radical or unreasonable. I think it's as unreasonable to deny Ali's influence as it is to deny Elvis's. Ali's influence was a strong influence and generally a negative one on sportsmanship.

And that last sentence is about as concise as anything I'll ever write on this subject.

[C&CDean]

Oh, boy ... the Falwell chant begins to pick up volume ...

Oh. So you say the word "christian" and suddenly you're a Falwell guy? Blow me.

[LSUdeek]

Oh, boy ... the Falwell chant begins to pick up volume ...

wtf?

[yermom]

Oh. So you say the word "christian" and suddenly you're a Falwell guy? Blow me.

you of all people should be ok with broad generalizations ;)

[Scott D]

My question was meant to be provocative, so it exaggerates a bit. And you are certainly not unreasonable.

However, I don't see the need to "corroborate" individual sports with team sports. If you are saying that Ali was justified by being in an individual sport, OK. But that doesn't address his influence on others in other sports. Not every boxer promoted himself like Ali, and not every Ali imitator is a boxer.

And you CAN blame Elvis for the Backstreet Boys. And you can blame Elvis for the Beatles; and you can blame the Beatles for almost every rock band, good or bad, since 1964, and for a lot other of things too, not all of which are universally regarded as good. People copy people; trends are set; Ali, Elvis, & the Beatles set trends.

Namath? His trend might have been "pimpy white guys," but not disrespect for opponents. He was flashy off the field, but I don't recall him ever being unsportsmanlike on the field, except maybe for his prediction that the Jets would beat the Colts. (I was for the Colts. :( )

I realize, of course, that Ali was part of a bigger picture that included Elvis and the Beatles and all kinds of other new, radical, and scary stuff, so I don't say Ali was the anti-Christ or that he is singlehandedly responsible for every bad act of every follower and imitator (some of whom may not even know who they imitate). But I am old enough to have seen Ali in the light of his times and to have followed sports before-Ali and after-Ali. There was a difference between before and after, and Ali was a difference-maker. So I still regard Ali as the first major athlete who "legitimized" showboating, arrogance, and disrepect for one's opponent in modern times, and who served as the model and trend setter for many imitators in all sports.

If everybody agreed with me, life would be boring. You and Lidi make a nice defense of Ali, and lots of people will always admire him because of his influence, or despite it. I don't propose anything very radical or unreasonable. I think it's as unreasonable to deny Ali's influence as it is to deny Elvis's. Ali's influence was a strong influence and generally a negative one on sportsmanship.

And that last sentence is about as concise as anything I'll ever write on this subject.

The problem here is that showboating took place on the playgrounds long before Cassius Clay went pro as a boxer. Either Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Wilt Chamberlain had a book where they mentioned that there was a lot of showboating and taunting on the basketball courts at Rucker Park.

[Seamus]

Oh. So you say the word "christian" and suddenly you're a Falwell guy? Blow me.

Pass.

Let's try to be a little more civil. Geez ...

[Seamus]

Better the Falwell chant than the Osama chant. How many infidels has Jerry beheaded lately? How many planes has he flown into office buildings?


Why do we have to choose either? The lesser of two evils? Seriously ...? Why does it have to be "my way or the highway" when it comes to religion? And please don't insult intelligence by saying "because God says so." That would be total nonsense.

I believe in Jesus, but it's asshats like Falwell that give the broader religion a black eye. That, and Catholic priests that can't keep their hands off little boys' lsudeeks.

Oh, and to make sure this is football-related, Patrick Collins was underrated as a wishbone halfback. The dude had jets, as evidenced by the 1987 pwnage of Nebbish in their house.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

Why does it have to be "my way or the highway" when it comes to religion? And please don't insult intelligence by saying "because God says so." That would be total nonsense.



Actually, the bible AND the Koran say it's my way or the highway. If you believe that one of these books is that literal word of God, then you believe that the other is hell bound. Both books say that you are supposed to murder a non-believer. Harsh, but true.

Murder. Reminds me of the bcs championship game the other night.

[TUSooner]

The problem here is that showboating took place on the playgrounds long before Cassius Clay went pro as a boxer. Either Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Wilt Chamberlain had a book where they mentioned that there was a lot of showboating and taunting on the basketball courts at Rucker Park.
I'm sure that's true, and I'm sure Ali learned it on those playgrounds and street corners like that. Long ago I heard something about Ali's poetry coming from "doing the dozens" or something which was kind of a rap-like arty/slangy way of doing putdowns among the the people then known as "colored." Maybe we can at least agree that Ali played a major role in bringing these things into the "mainstream", by which I mean the attention of white people.

[LSUdeek]

Actually, the bible AND the Koran say it's my way or the highway. If you believe that one of these books is that literal word of God, then you believe that the other is hell bound. Both books say that you are supposed to murder a non-believer. Harsh, but true.

Murder. Reminds me of the bcs championship game the other night.

Show me scripture where it is commanded in Mosaic law for a person to kill an unbeliever? Even in the Qu'ran it says if an "infidel enter your tent and eat your salt, he is to be protected".

[Desert Sapper]

Oh, and to make sure this is football-related, Patrick Collins was underrated as a wishbone halfback. The dude had jets, as evidenced by the 1987 pwnage of Nebbish in their house.

True...and don't forget that TD against saxet in '85. Pure athletic brilliance. :D

[footballfanatic]

Reading complaints about classless U Fla players gives me an oppportuinity to raise this old proposition again:

Taunting, boasting, arrogant posing, end-zone dances, sack dances, even tackle-for-3-yard-gain dances, and most of all, the obsession with "respect" - getting it, of course, never giving it...
I say it's Muhammad Ali's fault. Ali didn't invent arrogance and its byproducts. This stuff has always been around, and almost always been frowned upon. But Ali made it acceptable -- with the help of intimidated media toadies who didn't want to sound out-of-date, out-of-touch, and racist. Ali made "attitude" a model for the behavior of many young folk. As a result, respect is a notably rare commmodity in sports today. (Isn't there a book or film or something out now that "credits" Ali with inventing Hip-Hop?)

That is why I will never share the adoration most people seem to have for Ali. I'll pity him for his current infirmities, and I'll admit he's the greatest boxer evar. But I cannot admire his role in shaping the modern culture, in or out of sports.

I admit I don't about Ali's private life, but it's his public life that did the damage (so I hold).

Am I wrong? Please show me if I am.

Very, very interesting post. Not sure if Ali enirely responsible for that. he did respresent a culture of rage, but remember, before Ali, there were NO black people who spoke up for themselves. No one. I just want to say that I watched the recent docmentary titled Ali 65 on ESPN HD. I got to watch all of his speeches about why he wouldn't serve in Vietnam. It is impossible to watch these without being deeply impressed with his courage. He made many speeches about it, and he pointed out rightly, that unlike rich, white kids, he wasn't fleeing the country. He was staying, and willing to face the results of his actions. He didn't mince his words. He even publicly wondered how Joe Namath got a physical deferment, then went on to play pro football! This was not a swaggering, punk hooting to the cameras. This was a serious, honest, and courageous young man, who wasn't afraid to put himself in harm's way for his beliefs. Oh, and by the way, he was right--it was a war where brave, young Americans died for very ultimately little reason.

[footballfanatic]

To add to the fire, why is disgraceful to refuse to serve in an insane war, but not disgraceful to start one under false pretenses? (Tonkin Gulf, Weapons of Mass Destruction, battleship Maine, etc) Why aren't our public leaders held up the same scrutiny as our young men who go have to risk their lives for someone else's mess?

[Stoop Dawg]

Oh. So you say the word "christian" and suddenly you're a Falwell guy? Blow me.

Kinda like Islam = terrorist.

Sucks being a victim of the same types of prejudices that you yourself possess, eh?

[Scott D]

I'm sure that's true, and I'm sure Ali learned it on those playgrounds and street corners like that. Long ago I heard something about Ali's poetry coming from "doing the dozens" or something which was kind of a rap-like arty/slangy way of doing putdowns among the the people then known as "colored." Maybe we can at least agree that Ali played a major role in bringing these things into the "mainstream", by which I mean the attention of white people.

Meh, white people used to make silly wars between themselves grease themselves up pull a few tugs on mr. johnson and scream insults at the other greased up mr johnson tugged white people with weapons screaming insults and bragging about their real or imagined achievements before attempting to carve each other up with pointy knives.

too many people try to compare sports to battle, but yet is not this metaphorically the same scenario...sans the lack of clothing and pointy knives?

[TexasLidig8r]

Show me scripture where it is commanded in Mosaic law for a person to kill an unbeliever? Even in the Qu'ran it says if an "infidel enter your tent and eat your salt, he is to be protected".

Here's a start:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

[TUSooner]

Meh, white people used to make silly wars between themselves grease themselves up pull a few tugs on mr. johnson and scream insults at the other greased up mr johnson tugged white people with weapons screaming insults and bragging about their real or imagined achievements before attempting to carve each other up with pointy knives.

too many people try to compare sports to battle, but yet is not this metaphorically the same scenario...sans the lack of clothing and pointy knives?
I was going to add that, sure, white people did that stuuf too... back in the in the 400s or so. BUT, here's the deal I'm talking about.

By the 1900s (and really long before tkat I'd bet) sports had evolved as a civilised, "gentlemanly" undertaking. It included all the things we call sportsmanship: respect, modesty, giving it your best but leaving it on the field, not taking an unfair advantage, and, as Kipling said, meeting with triumph and disaster and treating those two imposters just the same. All that sort of noble idealism took the place of insults. The roots of sportmanship could probably be traced to Christian ethics.
Of course there were bad guys, like Ty Cobb. (As I recall, Cobb was not much liked because he was such an a-hole). But they were not highlky rehrded and surely not worshipped. When I was growing up, the ideal of sportsman was still mostly sought after and taught and encouraged, especially in the face of unsporting behavior. Some of it might have been hypocritical, but it was still an ideal worth attaining. And it still is

Ali appeared in the middle of the rest of the 1960s "revolt" and seemed to stand against all of that. I gotta stop.

[footballfanatic]

Here's a start:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51


This is getting too off-topic and is not appropriate for this forum.

[TexasLidig8r]

This is getting too off-topic and is not appropriate for this forum.

I thought it was Muhammad Ali who wrote all that stuff!!! :confused:

and I an NEVER.... NEVER.. guilty of thread jacking.

[footballfanatic]

I thought it was Muhammad Ali who wrote all that stuff!!! :confused:

and I an NEVER.... NEVER.. guilty of thread jacking.

Ha ha. Speaking of thread jacking, shame about Ryan Paranoid. Seems he's gotten himself into a little trouble.

[TexasLidig8r]

Ha ha. Speaking of thread jacking, shame about Ryan Paranoid. Seems he's gotten himself into a little trouble.

lol.. That breaks my heart! HOLLA! :D

[Ash]

I was going to add that, sure, white people did that stuuf too... back in the in the 400s or so. BUT, here's the deal I'm talking about.

By the 1900s (and really long before tkat I'd bet) sports had evolved as a civilised, "gentlemanly" undertaking. It included all the things we call sportsmanship: respect, modesty, giving it your best but leaving it on the field, not taking an unfair advantage, and, as Kipling said, meeting with triumph and disaster and treating those two imposters just the same. All that sort of noble idealism took the place of insults. The roots of sportmanship could probably be traced to Christian ethics.
Of course there were bad guys, like Ty Cobb. (As I recall, Cobb was not much liked because he was such an a-hole). But they were not highlky rehrded and surely not worshipped. When I was growing up, the ideal of sportsman was still mostly sought after and taught and encouraged, especially in the face of unsporting behavior. Some of it might have been hypocritical, but it was still an ideal worth attaining. And it still is

Ali appeared in the middle of the rest of the 1960s "revolt" and seemed to stand against all of that. I gotta stop.

What about the Babe?

And has anyone surmised where little white boys from Ada like Jeremy Shockey learn to act like *******s on the field? Did he grow up wanting to be Ali? Maybe, I doubt it.

[Scott D]

I was going to add that, sure, white people did that stuuf too... back in the in the 400s or so. BUT, here's the deal I'm talking about.

By the 1900s (and really long before tkat I'd bet) sports had evolved as a civilised, "gentlemanly" undertaking. It included all the things we call sportsmanship: respect, modesty, giving it your best but leaving it on the field, not taking an unfair advantage, and, as Kipling said, meeting with triumph and disaster and treating those two imposters just the same. All that sort of noble idealism took the place of insults. The roots of sportmanship could probably be traced to Christian ethics.
Of course there were bad guys, like Ty Cobb. (As I recall, Cobb was not much liked because he was such an a-hole). But they were not highlky rehrded and surely not worshipped. When I was growing up, the ideal of sportsman was still mostly sought after and taught and encouraged, especially in the face of unsporting behavior. Some of it might have been hypocritical, but it was still an ideal worth attaining. And it still is

Ali appeared in the middle of the rest of the 1960s "revolt" and seemed to stand against all of that. I gotta stop.

Let's see...Dick Butkus has admitted to attempting to intentionally injure opposing players. A couple of pitchers during the 20s-30s admitted to attempting to intentionally injure batters on opposing teams. My good sir, the belief that sports prior to the 1960s in this country on a professional level were above the board and completely full of good sportsmanship is a falsehood. There have always been brash personalities in sports, business, and politics. We certainly can't blame all of that on Ali, now can we.

Me thinks you doth protest too much, to the point where it seems your issue isn't with a percieved behavior pattern. But that your problem is with a man who is arguably one of the greatest heavyweight fighters to ever lace up a pair of gloves is a more personal matter. As for the refute that other boxers didn't ham it up, that also is a falsehood.

[Scott D]

What about the Babe?

And has anyone surmised where little white boys from Ada like Jeremy Shockey learn to act like *******s on the field? Did he grow up wanting to be Ali? Maybe, I doubt it.

He probably wanted to be Tommy Morrison ;)

[royalfan5]

He probably wanted to be Tommy Morrison ;)
he wanted to be someone who got knocked down at the drop of a hat?

[footballfanatic]

Don't forget about Jack Johnson. He was the heavyweight champion around 1915. A black man, he was supposed to be really outspoken. he dressed in the finest clothes, smoked fine cigars, wiped out anyone in the ring, and worst of all, dated white women. He was eventually murdered for doing so.

[TUSooner]

Let's see...Dick Butkus has admitted to attempting to intentionally injure opposing players. A couple of pitchers during the 20s-30s admitted to attempting to intentionally injure batters on opposing teams. My good sir, the belief that sports prior to the 1960s in this country on a professional level were above the board and completely full of good sportsmanship is a falsehood. There have always been brash personalities in sports, business, and politics. We certainly can't blame all of that on Ali, now can we.

Me thinks you doth protest too much, to the point where it seems your issue isn't with a percieved behavior pattern. But that your problem is with a man who is arguably one of the greatest heavyweight fighters to ever lace up a pair of gloves is a more personal matter. As for the refute that other boxers didn't ham it up, that also is a falsehood.
Except for the phrase "all Muhammad Ali's fault" which was meant to be provocative, I have taken undue care to avoid absolute statements like "other boxers didn't ham it up." So, please don't attribute more extreme positions to me than I deserve. But I did intend to provoke, so I won't protest too much.

And my problem IS DEFINITELY with a behavior pattern; I just happen to believe that Ali helped promote that pattern. He didn't invent it, and others have perverted, but his poplarity and charisma and the time in which he flourished did help promote it. That's what I'm saying.

And as for other athletes who have not been sportsmankinlike (a long list), I'll just say this: The failure of some people to live up to an ideal does not make the ideal unworthy. And relatedly, another person's hypocrisy is not an excuse for my immorality.

To many people, including you and Bob Stoops, Ali will always be a hero. I don't hate y'all for it; I just disagree with you. And I started this thread just to explain why.

[Scott D]

he wanted to be someone who got knocked down at the drop of a hat?

that plus overrated, and a minor star in Rocky 8 ;)

[Scott D]

Don't forget about Jack Johnson. He was the heavyweight champion around 1915. A black man, he was supposed to be really outspoken. he dressed in the finest clothes, smoked fine cigars, wiped out anyone in the ring, and worst of all, dated white women. He was eventually murdered for doing so.

Johnson dressed well because he could afford to, he smoked fine cigars because he could afford to. Jim Jeffries ducked him by hiding behind racism for years.

As for being murdered. How does one get murdered in a car accident at the age of 68?