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View Full Version : Jim Edmonds HOF worthy?



Collier11
1/8/2007, 06:53 PM
As a Cardinals fan I am biased so I am interested to see what you guys think about his HOF potential. Considering he stays relatively healthy these next two years, you are looking at a CF that has near or over 400 hr's, a 290. ish career avg, 2000 hits, and of course one of the best cf's of all time with 8 current gold gloves and could have 9 or 10 if he stays healthy. He also has a silver slugger and has been in the top 5 of the mvp voting a couple of times plus before this year he was one of the most clutch playoff performers(see amazing catch and walk-off HR against houston three years ago. I say yes but I may have my shades on too tight.

jk the sooner fan
1/8/2007, 06:57 PM
no

starrca23
1/8/2007, 10:37 PM
Yes. I am a Card fan too though.

BeetDigger
1/8/2007, 10:55 PM
Sure he's worthy, they sell tickets to anyone. :D

Scott D
1/9/2007, 01:06 PM
no...he isn't. He doesn't even compare to the centerfielders who are in.

royalfan5
1/9/2007, 01:18 PM
If Frank White isn't worthy, then there is no way in Edmonds is. It's not the Hall of Above Average.

starrca23
1/9/2007, 01:50 PM
Royals fans are not allowed to talk about baseball ;)

starrca23
1/9/2007, 02:21 PM
Hall of Fame Members
Center Fielders

Richie Ashburn
Earl Averill
Max Carey
Ty Cobb
Earle Combs
Joe DiMaggio
Larry Doby
Hugh Duffy
Billy Hamilton
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Kirby Puckett
Edd Roush
Duke Snider
Tris Speaker
Lloyd Waner
Hack Wilson

Collier11
1/9/2007, 03:06 PM
Just a question cus I dont know off the top of my head, do any of them have as many gold gloves as Jim Edmonds??

starrca23
1/9/2007, 05:43 PM
I got the info off of baseball almanac (sp?) webpage, I didn't see the whol gold glove list, but most of those guys are prehistoric. In all honesty I think Jimmy is way better than average, but he will need more psot-season clutch performances to put him in the hall. You half to do it while everyone is watching, like Reggie Jackson.

Collier11
1/9/2007, 09:01 PM
ozzie smith got in cus he was the greates defensive shortstop ever and he had ONE big playoff hr, jimmy is one of the top 5 defensive cf's ever and he has a few big hits and defensive plays in the playoffs...based on that criteria and that he has 4 really good offensive years...I would say yes...as a Cardinals fan ;)

Scott D
1/10/2007, 01:23 PM
I could list 5 centerfielders off of starrca23's list that were better defensively than Edmonds.

Nobody is saying he isn't a good player. But in comparison to deserving players, he's on that list of guys who may get on the ballot but will never really get more than 40% of the vote at best.

starrca23
1/10/2007, 01:48 PM
Okay Scott, name that tune (list your five). I can only find three.

Scott D
1/10/2007, 01:54 PM
Hall of Fame Members
Center Fielders

Richie Ashburn
Ty Cobb
Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Kirby Puckett
Duke Snider
Tris Speaker
Lloyd Waner


There, nine just for you.

jk the sooner fan
1/10/2007, 01:58 PM
i think i could name 5 in todays game that are better than Edmonds

look he's a solid player, he's had a good/great career

just not HOF

Frozen Sooner
1/10/2007, 02:02 PM
No.

On that same token, Junior Griff doesn't deserve the HOF either.

Scott D
1/10/2007, 02:04 PM
No.

On that same token, Junior Griff doesn't deserve the HOF either.

agreed. Leaving Seattle for Cincinnati killed his chances.

Then again, I think 23.8% of voters voting for McGwire this year was too many.

Frozen Sooner
1/10/2007, 02:08 PM
I don't think leaving the Mariners did it, I think it's how much time he missed to injury and how the injuries affected how he plays.

Personally, I think that the old Junior was twice the centerfielder Edmonds is. He just didn't make it on Sportscenter as much because he played in position. Edmonds makes a ton of highlight catches that should be routine.

Scott D
1/10/2007, 02:12 PM
I don't think leaving the Mariners did it, I think it's how much time he missed to injury and how the injuries affected how he plays.

Personally, I think that the old Junior was twice the centerfielder Edmonds is. He just didn't make it on Sportscenter as much because he played in position. Edmonds makes a ton of highlight catches that should be routine.

But sir, where did those injuries take place?

I think Jeter is a first balloter when he's on the ballot, and ARod is either a first or second balloter when it's histurn.

jk the sooner fan
1/10/2007, 02:15 PM
when arod is done, he'll be a first ballot

Scott D
1/10/2007, 02:17 PM
maybe. we still have yet to see how the stain of the steroid era will affect players with lofty numbers, even the clean ones. I think that's what benefitted Gwynn and Ripken so much this year. Their numbers indicated clean throughout their careers. Both had a bad year here and there thrown in with their good years.

Frozen Sooner
1/10/2007, 02:19 PM
But sir, where did those injuries take place?

I think Jeter is a first balloter when he's on the ballot, and ARod is either a first or second balloter when it's histurn.

Junior was showing injury-proneness in Seattle. Remember when he broke his wrist against the Kingdome pads making a great catch? Still came down with the ball in the injured stem.

Jeter and A-Rod are both first-ballot guys.

I don't think Edgar makes it because he wasn't a position player, which is a shame.

Scott D
1/10/2007, 02:28 PM
I'm not saying those guys shouldn't be. But the voters are more out of touch with a lot of things than is reasonable based upon how some of them talk about why they vote the way they do. Most of them look for reasons to NOT vote for a guy before they'll decide to vote for him. It wouldn't surprize me if one or both ended up being a second balloter though.

Edgar might make it eventually, but he may end up being a veterans committee awardee.

as for Junior's injuries. How many of his injuries in Cincy have been of the 'freakish' nature. Then looking at how much of his time in Cincy has been spent on the DL. When he's healthy now, all he can do is hit home runs. Somewhere along the line he's lost the ability to hit for average, and clearly the leg and knee injuries have taken their toll on his fielding and running ability.

I think Griff has fallen into the same category as Mantle in the "what could have been" scenario.

starrca23
1/10/2007, 02:40 PM
Scott, I beg to differ, based on errors along. Some of these guys have twice as many a year alone. Tris Speaker? Tell me you actually know anything about that guy?!

BeetDigger
1/10/2007, 03:21 PM
Do we know that Ripken didn't use anything? The benefit of steroids is not just muscle but healing. Remember, the guy played 2,600+ games in a row. (BTW - the answer is Ryan Minor). Palmeiro didn't look like a steroid user but that obviously didn't mean anything. If the writers voted for Gwynn and Ripken because they didn't "look" like they used steroids, then they (the writers) are placing themselves in a more lofty position than they deserve.

The job of policing the sport belongs to MLB and the commissioner, not the writers. We fans, if we suspect cheating, can choose to support the game or not. We can vote with our dollars.

Beef
1/10/2007, 04:05 PM
Along all these lines, is Juan Gonzalez a HOFer? If he ever retires.

BeetDigger
1/10/2007, 04:35 PM
Here is a blog by a guy that I talk to via another sports board. He breaks down a number of candidates and discusses their credentials.

Rule V Blog (http://www.darowski.com/rulev/?cat=3)

He discusses Juan's credentials here: HOF Case: Juan (http://www.darowski.com/rulev/?p=16)

Based upon Black Ink, Gray Ink and HOF Standards, his score is below the average hall of fame member. However his HOF Monitor rank is 121, above the 100 mark they use as a guide for HOF inclusion.

If voters continue to judge players based upon perceived use of steroids, he probably won't make it, or it will take a number of votes. If voters just use numbers and don't instill their steroid sentiment, then it looks like he has a decent, but not guaranteed, shot at enshrinement.

Beef
1/10/2007, 04:46 PM
Interesting analysis. I'm curious what impact the 2 MVP's have on his candidacy, if any. Your link doesn't seem to take those into consideration at all, unless I missed something.

Collier11
1/10/2007, 05:12 PM
I have no problem admitting that JE may not be a HOF'er but to say that there are that many cf's better than him is crazy! He is regarded by all that are considered to be "experts" to be the best cf'er of the past twenty years minus andruw jones and griffey. You are not gonna convince me in any way that there are 5 better ones than him in the game now, let alone for the last decade or two

Scott D
1/10/2007, 05:15 PM
Scott, I beg to differ, based on errors along. Some of these guys have twice as many a year alone. Tris Speaker? Tell me you actually know anything about that guy?!

Keep in mind most of these guys didn't play in the cookie cutter stadiums that today's players play in. Have you ever seen the design of the outfield in Ebbet Field? Old Fenway? The Polo Grounds? Even Yankee Stadium of today is a shell of what it was pre Steinbrenner.

Speaker was pretty much the original Ichiro with his bat.

The worst problem in a discussion like this is even with a site like Baseball-reference.com which has the ability to project how players from the past would do with a modern schedule it's not a real good representation of what a player from then would do these days.

Oh, and had he been a CF his career, I'd put Joe Jackson ahead of Edmonds also :D

BeetDigger
1/10/2007, 05:16 PM
I'm curious what impact the 2 MVP's have on his candidacy, if any.

I believe that the folks who do the ratings (Black Ink, ....) do consider them when coming up with their numbers. It is also factored in, in sort of an indirect way when he (Mike D.) considers dominant or great years. I don't know how Juan compares to Andre Dawson, but that is who comes to my mind when I compare recent players. Dawson won the one MVP playing for the last place Cubs and he is still falling short of the number to get in. There is no doubt that the two MVP's will help Juan, but not sure that they will be enough to get him in.

Scott D
1/10/2007, 05:23 PM
Do we know that Ripken didn't use anything? The benefit of steroids is not just muscle but healing. Remember, the guy played 2,600+ games in a row. (BTW - the answer is Ryan Minor). Palmeiro didn't look like a steroid user but that obviously didn't mean anything. If the writers voted for Gwynn and Ripken because they didn't "look" like they used steroids, then they (the writers) are placing themselves in a more lofty position than they deserve.

The job of policing the sport belongs to MLB and the commissioner, not the writers. We fans, if we suspect cheating, can choose to support the game or not. We can vote with our dollars.

Ripken never hit more than 34 hr in a season, never drove in more than 114 runs in a season, and his highest batting average was .340 which came in a season where he only played in half the games in the final years of his career. The thing with him, as pretty much anyone who watched a lot of Baltimore games over the years would attest to is that usually he was struggling at either the plate or in the field a lot during his career, and he played hurt a lot in 1990 and 1992, probably more so than he did in any other season. The Balt. papers would alternate regularly between ripping the guy for his performance because of maintaining the streak rather than the team winning. When he won the MVP in 91, it was more because his numbers reflected what he could do when he wasn't out there day in and day out with nagging injuries.

BeetDigger
1/10/2007, 05:34 PM
All circumstantial evidence. The fact is, he never took a test, so we don't know. Do I think he did them? No. But I don't know for sure, and neither do the voters. Nor do they know if McGwire took them either, since he never took a test. Now if the voters didn't vote for McGwire because they don't think he has hall of fame credentials, then fine. But if they didn't vote for him because they "think" he took steroids, then not fine.

Scott D
1/10/2007, 05:41 PM
All circumstantial evidence. The fact is, he never took a test, so we don't know. Do I think he did them? No. But I don't know for sure, and neither do the voters. Nor do they know if McGwire took them either, since he never took a test. Now if the voters didn't vote for McGwire because they don't think he has hall of fame credentials, then fine. But if they didn't vote for him because they "think" he took steroids, then not fine.

I believe a few voters admitted that they didn't vote for McGwire because of well....McGwire's train wreck in front of Congress. Ironically it appears those whom vote for the HoF in his regard "Aren't here to talk about the past, they're here to discuss the future". Never did he think such a terrible position recommended by his lawyer would come back to bite him in the ***. The worst part is, the guy wants to be a hitting instructor with a team be it in the minors or at the major league level. But, until this whole 'controversy' surrounding him mainly based upon his well, quite frankly 'non-staetments' to Congress, there will be those who never think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

The funny part, is that I heard recently the statute of limitations in regards to the testimony for Congress has passed. So he's no longer in danger of perjuring himself by admitting to doing steroids if he did do them. From what some of those whom vote for the HoF have said, they basically want something definitive from McGwire before they'll consider voting yes for him.

He will eventually get in I believe.

On the bright side, his ole 'buddy' Jose will never again be on the ballot with his stellar 1.1% of yes votes.

GrapevineSooner
1/10/2007, 07:06 PM
when arod is done, he'll be a first ballot

No he won't.

His relative lack of production come playoff time will hurt him, IMO.

That's not to say he won't get in at all. Just not on a first ballott.

jk the sooner fan
1/10/2007, 07:11 PM
agree to disagree on arod - his overall numbers will be too much to ignore

gwynn and ripken did what in all those postseasons? they each had ONE

as for Juan Gone....no, no HOF...

Frozen Sooner
1/10/2007, 07:18 PM
agree to disagree on arod - his overall numbers will be too much to ignore

gwynn and ripken did what in all those postseasons? they each had ONE

as for Juan Gone....no, no HOF...

Gwynn had two, and captured NL pennants in both.

Gwynn and Ripken are also getting good guy bonus points, based on their staying with the team they came up with. Gwynn in particular got bonus votes for that. Ripken got bonus points for the streak.

A-Rod is going to take a hit from a bunch of writers for his contract and for being a nomad, though it's not deserved at all. He'll still be a first ballot guy, but there's a bunch of sportswriters, particularly on the west coast, who REALLY don't like the guy.

Scott D
1/10/2007, 09:59 PM
come on people..now is the time we mock Jose Canseco for getting 1.1% of the vote (which of the 540 morons voted yes for him) and ensuring he'll never appear on another ballot :P

BeetDigger
1/10/2007, 10:14 PM
Unfortunately, there have been people with credentials that are weaker who have garnered more votes. Remember, the HOF is SUPPOSED to be about credentials, not other things. The media, who make a decision based upon off field transgressions, were more than happy to make money based upon the players on field performance.

Cam
1/11/2007, 08:21 PM
No.

On that same token, Junior Griff doesn't deserve the HOF either.
I'm with you on both accounts.

starrca23
1/12/2007, 03:35 PM
Scott, I agree on Shoeless Joe, but the bar has been raised since guys like Tris (who comitted over one hundred errors). Which is why I would say that Jim is still better than all but about three of those guys on the list. By the way the line in right field in Yankee stadium was actually under 300 in the original stadium

Scott D
1/12/2007, 03:38 PM
of course it was. You didn't want ole George Herman getting too tired to swing his 42 ounce bat did you?

jk the sooner fan
1/12/2007, 03:45 PM
what will the voters do with barry bonds?

Scott D
1/12/2007, 03:57 PM
I wouldn't be surprized to see him get at least 80% on the first ballot. But I think it may take at least 2 or 3 years for him to get in. Too many of the current voters have said that he was a shoo-in before the 98 season began.

jk the sooner fan
1/12/2007, 03:58 PM
alot has transpired since 98

sad thing about Griffey...he was a lock several years ago

Scott D
1/12/2007, 04:00 PM
yes, but that was voters saying that a week ago. I should have clarified better.

Voters a week ago, said that Bonds' career prior to 98 would have merited him getting in. It'll be interesting to see how that works out though.

jk the sooner fan
1/12/2007, 04:00 PM
i dont think he's a first ballot, but it will be interesting to see

Collier11
1/12/2007, 05:06 PM
If you dont let Mcgwire in how do you let Bonds in. Even though Mcgwire has acted suspicious, he has never tested positive and never been proven to take anything. Bonds not only failed a test for amphetimines, but the evidence against him taking roids is stronger than Mcgwires is. Also, to whomever said Arod isnt first ballot...wrong wrong wrong. By the time he retires if he never tests positive for anything, he will have some of the greatest stats ever and thats what they base it off of. If not, then people like Paul Oneill and David eckstein would get in.

Beef
1/12/2007, 05:35 PM
I don't think Bonds and McGwire are a good comparison other than the steroids part. I don't buy that McGwire's a HOFer even if he didn't take steroids. He was just a more successful Dave Kingman in my book. Barry Bonds is a statistical freakshow. His stats are pretty amazing even if he is roiding.

Scott D
1/12/2007, 05:49 PM
If you dont let Mcgwire in how do you let Bonds in. Even though Mcgwire has acted suspicious, he has never tested positive and never been proven to take anything. Bonds not only failed a test for amphetimines, but the evidence against him taking roids is stronger than Mcgwires is. Also, to whomever said Arod isnt first ballot...wrong wrong wrong. By the time he retires if he never tests positive for anything, he will have some of the greatest stats ever and thats what they base it off of. If not, then people like Paul Oneill and David eckstein would get in.

Prior to either of them breaking the 70 home run plateau, the only thing McGwire had on Bonds was a World Series win. Well that and at least 30 lbs. The biggest problem you have with McGwire now, is because of what he said in the congressional hearings. It now makes you wonder how much of what Canseco said in his book was actually true about the Bash Brother days.