Sooooo, no one would choose to be gay?

[sooner n houston]

Ever heard that as a defense by gays the "they are that way by heredity argument"? Well read on! :D


Science told: hands off gay sheep
Isabel Oakeshott and Chris Gourlay

Experiments that claim to ‘cure’ homosexual rams spark anger

SCIENTISTS are conducting experiments to change the sexuality of “gay” sheep in a programme that critics fear could pave the way for breeding out homosexuality in humans.

The technique being developed by American researchers adjusts the hormonal balance in the brains of homosexual rams so that they are more inclined to mate with ewes.

It raises the prospect that pregnant women could one day be offered a treatment to reduce or eliminate the chance that their offspring will be homosexual. Experts say that, in theory, the “straightening” procedure on humans could be as simple as a hormone supplement for mothers-to-be, worn on the skin like an anti-smoking nicotine patch.

The research, at Oregon State University in the city of Corvallis and at the Oregon Health and Science University in Portland, has caused an outcry. Martina Navratilova, the lesbian tennis player who won Wimbledon nine times, and scientists and gay rights campaigners in Britain have called for the project to be abandoned.

Navratilova defended the “right” of sheep to be gay. She said: “How can it be that in the year 2006 a major university would host such homophobic and cruel experiments?” She said gay men and lesbians would be “deeply offended” by the social implications of the tests.

But the researchers argue that the work is valid, shedding light on the “broad question” of what determines sexual orientation. They insist the work is not aimed at “curing” homosexuality.

Approximately one ram in 10 prefers to mount other rams rather than mate with ewes, reducing its value to a farmer. Initially, the publicly funded project aimed to improve the productivity of herds.

The scientists have been able to pinpoint the mechanisms influencing the desires of “male-oriented” rams by studying their brains. The animals’ skulls are cut open and electronic sensors are attached to their brains.

By varying the hormone levels, mainly by injecting hormones into the brain, they have had “considerable success” in altering the rams’ sexuality, with some previously gay animals becoming attracted to ewes.

Professor Charles Roselli, the Health and Science University biologist leading the research, defended the project.

He said: “In general, sexuality has been under-studied because of political concerns. People don’t want science looking into what determines sexuality.

“It’s a touchy issue. In fact, several studies have shown that people who believe homosexuality is biologically based are less homophobic than people who think that this orientation is acquired.”

The research is being peer-reviewed by a panel of scientists in America, demonstrating that it is being taken seriously by the academic community.

Potentially, the techniques could one day be adapted for human use, with doctors perhaps being able to offer parents pre-natal tests to determine the likely sexuality of offspring or a hormonal treatment to change the orientation of a child.

Roselli has said he would be “uncomfortable” about parents choosing sexuality, but argues that it is up to policy makers to legislate on questions of ethics.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2524408,00.html

[yermom]

heredity and "born with" aren't the same thing

i fail to see how hormones changing something makes it more likely to be a choice...

[OklahomaTuba]

everyone knows gay sheep are an aggot invention, just like peanut butter slices.

[yermom]

yeah, i knew the Aggie jokes were coming, and soon :D

[Scott D]

“It’s a touchy issue. In fact, several studies have shown that people who believe homosexuality is biologically based are less homophobic than people who think that this orientation is acquired.”

Let's say that this is true...re: being biologically. What other traits to we then begin to decide are desirable for people to have, and what traits we need to 'cure'? The sketchiness of the potential applications are probably on a par with the sketchiness of potential applications when they had the little cloning experiment a decade ago.

[sooner n houston]

Gives a whole new meaning to "Pro-Choice" now doesn't it! :D

[Scott D]

gives a whole new meaning to "God Complex" also.

[OklahomaTuba]

Can we breed out the ability to make a horn sign with ones hands? Both up and down?

[Scott D]

I doubt you can find a way to breed out stupid, it's infected too many gene pools.

[Hatfield]

the christian types are probably up in arms over these scientists messing with god's design....or not since it is going at "curing" the gays

[tommieharris91]

Personally, I have actually heard that homosexuality is a reproductive disease much like impotence, and can be cured with drugs and dietary supplements. That said, I like this research. Just my two cents.

But if this cures sheep gayness, what will stillwater folk do for fun?

[leavingthezoo]

Let's say that this is true...re: being biologically. What other traits to we then begin to decide are desirable for people to have, and what traits we need to 'cure'? The sketchiness of the potential applications are probably on a par with the sketchiness of potential applications when they had the little cloning experiment a decade ago.

what other traits can be "cured" with hormones?

bitchiness in the women. check.
growth issues. check.
infertility. check.
and now gayness possibly.

if it's a hormonal imbalance that causes homosexuality, then why shouldn't it be treated hormonally? it sounds like a medical issue then, not a moral issue.

i don't know if it is or isn't... i'm just saying, if it turns out to be true or whatever.

actually, i don't care.

i'd erase all of this but i just spent too much time thinking and typing it. which is sad really that it's not far more impressive.

now i'm rambling.

[Widescreen]

As a parent, if you knew that there was a prenatal way to make sure your children wouldn't become gay (assuming no side-effects, etc), would you do it?

[Scott D]

most medical issues run about a 60% chance of being moral. Interesting story I read about a woman who was getting a dangerous surgery, but refused to sign off to get a blood transfusion, including giving her own blood beforehand to be stored to put back in her due to her religious beliefs.

The doctors in that case followed her wishes despite not being happy with the possibilities. She ended up pulling through fine, but the risk was there to not take the moral route, to take the 'safe' route.

[Scott D]

As a parent, if you knew that there was a prenatal way to make sure your children wouldn't become gay, would you do it?

is having a doctor 'alter' your child in the womb any more moral than aborting it, because you discover during pregnancy the child has down's syndrome?

[MamaMia]

Approximately one ram in 10 prefers to mount other rams rather than mate with ewes, reducing its value to a farmer. Initially, the publicly funded project aimed to improve the productivity of herdsThis is a total waste of money. I'm sure that the 9 heterosexual rams would be more than happy to take care of the ewes being neglected by the gay ram for free.

[Viking Kitten]

This is a total waste of money. I'm sure that the 9 heterosexual rams would be more than happy to take care of the ewes being neglected by the gay ram for free.

Plus, I bet the ewes are thrilled to have one gay ram around. Who else is going to direct and choreograph all the fabulous sheep musicals?

[tommieharris91]

As a parent, if you knew that there was a prenatal way to make sure your children wouldn't become gay (assuming no side-effects, etc), would you do it?

There is. It's called eating healthy. I'm dead serious.

[OklahomaTuba]

My dog humps logs.

i wonder if they can fix that?

[Widescreen]

is having a doctor 'alter' your child in the womb any more moral than aborting it, because you discover during pregnancy the child has down's syndrome?
If there was a way to fix (or prevent) the down's syndrome, I'd do it. How is it moral to allow your child to go through life with a preventable disease?

[crawfish]

This is a total waste of money. I'm sure that the 9 heterosexual rams would be more than happy to take care of the ewes being neglected by the gay ram for free.

Problem is, 2 of 10 ewes prefer the gay rams because they think they're sensitive. :texan:

[Getem]

is having a doctor 'alter' your child in the womb any more moral than aborting it, because you discover during pregnancy the child has down's syndrome?

This will be a sticky one for the libs. How is it ok to kill a fetus, but not alter it? After all, it's not really a human being, is it? No rights whatsoever.

[yermom]

yikes

[OUstud]

Yeah, but again, why not alter it if it will allow him/her to live a healthy life? It's like giving a small child the polio vaccine; they wouldn't think anymore of being cured of something than a fetus would, but it keeps them healthier.

[yermom]

being gay is like having Polio?

[1stTimeCaller]

I thought this thread was about critical_phil. nevermind.

[LoyalFan]

As a parent, if you knew that there was a prenatal way to make sure your children wouldn't become gay (assuming no side-effects, etc), would you do it?


Yeth!

Perthy in Peoria

[sooner_born_1960]

What's wrong with correcting a hormonal imbalance?

[Scott D]

This will be a sticky one for the libs. How is it ok to kill a fetus, but not alter it? After all, it's not really a human being, is it? No rights whatsoever.

it's sticky for both the libs and the cons. Where does the line get drawn in doing 'the right thing' and 'medical meglomania'

[OU Adonis]

being gay is like having Polio?

You really want to play that game? If everyone was gay, we would be whiped out in a generation or two. If everyone had Polio we could still reproduce.

[trey]

maybe we should worry about curing cancer or aids instead of gays. it's amazing to me how much time and money people spend to try and discriminate against a group of people. i don't understand why anyone cares what two consenting adults do behind closed doors. live and let live. one more thing. what the hell does choosing to be gay have to do with this article. i'm sure the 10% of sheep sat around one day and thought to themeselves....hey lets be gay.

[Vaevictis]

This will be a sticky one for the libs. How is it ok to kill a fetus, but not alter it? After all, it's not really a human being, is it? No rights whatsoever.

If it turns out that it really is a hormonal imbalance, then it's not just the libs that are going to have issues -- it's the entire psychological community that's going to have issues, especially from the "gay" groups.

Homosexuality was a psychological disease in the DSM up until version IV (iirc) when they removed it. If it really is an abnormal hormonal imbalance causing it, then it's going to have to go right back into the DSM.

The conservatives are going to have an issue too -- what if we find that it *is* a hormonal imbalance, but have no way to correct it? Suddenly, homosexuality ain't a choice anymore anymore, is it? God made them that way.

Personally, I wouldn't have any trouble with altering the fetus for this purpose. Heterosexuality is currently the most beneficial orientation to have, and ensuring a kid conforms to it ain't a problem.

[sooner n houston]

maybe we should worry about curing cancer or aids instead of gays. it's amazing to me how much time and money people spend to try and discriminate against a group of people. i don't understand why anyone cares what two consenting adults do behind closed doors. live and let live. one more thing. what the hell does choosing to be gay have to do with this article. i'm sure the 10% of sheep sat around one day and thought to themeselves....hey lets be gay.

Have you learned how to comprehend what you read? This is about a study of sheep. You know farmers would like their male sheep to breed, kinda what they have them for. Did your liberal panties get in a wad? :D

[stoopified]

gives a whole new meaning to "God Complex" also.God complex?I don't have a God Complex,I AM God.

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't see how this gives liberals any more of a moral problem than it does conservatives.

If someone was going to be born with a hormonal propensity towards homosexuality, wouldn't it be tampering with the natural order to reorient them medically?

If there's a test to determine latent homosexuality in utero, are we going to see prophylactic abortions from fundamentalist Christians attempting to practice eugenics?

Personally, I don't know what I'd do if my hypothetical wife were carrying a child with homosexual tendencies that could be reoriented. On the one hand, I don't think homosexuality is anything wrong or defective, just abnormal. Lefthandedness is also abnormal, but not something that needs to be "corrected." On the other hand, I know that having "normal" sexuality would make my child's life easier.

Tough questions.

[BigRedJed]

I agree.

[sooner_born_1960]

If someone was going to be born with a hormonal propensity towards morbid obesity, wouldn't it be tampering with the natural order to reorient them medically?

Sorry, Mike. There a lot of things that could be interjected in that one.

[OUstud]

being gay is like having Polio?

No, no, I was saying how altering the child in utero to help improve his/her life shouldn't have anything to do with whether or not he/she has a choice. Kind of like the polio vaccine: it's given at a very young age, and the child doesn't usually have a say in the matter, either.

[Frozen Sooner]

If someone was going to be born with a hormonal propensity towards morbid obesity, wouldn't it be tampering with the natural order to reorient them medically?

Sorry, Mike. There a lot of things that could be interjected in that one.

There's a rather large leap you're making there.

Personally, I'd think that many conservatives would find the idea of designer babies somewhat repugnant.

[jk the sooner fan]

Vaevictus got it right imo.....the last thing the gay community wants is for their "lifestyle" to be classified as fixable, or better yet, a medical condition.....they dont want to be "handicapped"

and if my wife were carrying a homosexually disposed fetus, and it could be changed.....then yes....i'd go for that

we're already doing inutero medical procedures...

[sooner_born_1960]

There's a rather large leap you're making there.

Personally, I'd think that many conservatives would find the idea of designer babies somewhat repugnant.
Not much of a leap at all. They are both conditions that I, if given the chance, would take measures to protect against. I'm sure there are many other conditions that fit.

[Sooner_Bob]

If there was a way to fix (or prevent) the down's syndrome, I'd do it. How is it moral to allow your child to go through life with a preventable disease?


Very true . . .

[Widescreen]

If someone was going to be born with a hormonal propensity towards homosexuality, wouldn't it be tampering with the natural order to reorient them medically?

I don't think so, any more than a surgeon repairing a heart defect in-utero. Of course this also assumes that the hormones can somehow change sexual orientation implying that it's a medical condition and that's not been proven.

[Frozen Sooner]

Not much of a leap at all. They are both conditions that I, if given the chance, would take measures to protect against. I'm sure there are many other conditions that fit.

Where do you draw the line? Or do you?

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't think so, any more than a surgeon repairing a hard defect in-utero. Of course this also assumes that the hormones can somehow change sexual orientation implying that it's a medical condition and that's not been proven.

Why is it a "defect" any more than red hair, left handedness, or not being a genius-level IQ?

[Sooner_Bob]

There's a rather large leap you're making there.



Really? How so? Isn't it all supposedly genetics . . . ??

[Widescreen]

Why is it a "defect" any more than red hair, left handedness, or not being a genius-level IQ?
Sorry, I misspelled. I meant "heart defect".

Edit: BTW, I liked your use of the word "abnormal" earlier. It's correct, too. Generally when a trait someone possesses is called abnormal they get ****ed but the real meaning is "not typical". Kind of like when you tell someone they're ignorant about something and they think you're telling them they're stupid.

[Frozen Sooner]

Really? How so? Isn't it all supposedly genetics . . . ??

One is patently life-threatening. The evidence that homosexuality is life-threatening in and of itself is somewhat suspect.

Question:

If you REALLY wanted a boy, and it appears that you were going to have a girl instead, would it be OK to use a medical treatment to reassign their gender in utero?

[Frozen Sooner]

Sorry, I misspelled. I meant "heart defect".

Edit: BTW, I liked your use of the word "abnormal" earlier. It's correct, too. Generally when a trait someone possesses is called abnormal they get ****ed but the real meaning is "not typical". Kind of like when you tell someone they're ignorant about something and they think you're telling them they're stupid.

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, that makes more sense that way.

Thanks.

[Scott D]

Vaevictus got it right imo.....the last thing the gay community wants is for their "lifestyle" to be classified as fixable, or better yet, a medical condition.....they dont want to be "handicapped"

and if my wife were carrying a homosexually disposed fetus, and it could be changed.....then yes....i'd go for that

we're already doing inutero medical procedures...

what if your wife were carrying a left handed disposed fetus, or a violently disposed fetus, or a mentally or physically disabled fetus, or a fetus that would develop one blue and one brown eye.

[jk the sooner fan]

i had a sheep dog once that had a blue eye and a brown eye

we kept it

[Scott D]

look out, Dean will come after you for comparing a child with a pet ;)

[yermom]

You really want to play that game? If everyone was gay, we would be whiped out in a generation or two. If everyone had Polio we could still reproduce.

is that what you are worried about?

those lesbians are pretty handy with a turkey baster ;)


i think this experiment is more about how it happens then how to cure it in humans

if someone is actually born gay, how does that change people's perceptions?

if they figure this out it doesn't really solve anything, there will just be a different fight about it