NEEDED: TV Guru help with DLP TV question!

[SoonerBBall]

Hey TV guys,

I am seriously considering buying this TV:

Samsung 61" 1080p HD DLP (http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DLPTV/HLS6167WXXAA.asp)

Anyone have any opinions on it?

The price I found is $2189 and includes the Samsung TV stand made for this model.

Is this a good price? Is there somehting else I should be looking for?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[85Sooner]

Hey TV guys,

I am seriously considering buying this TV:

Samsung 61" 1080p HD DLP (http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DLPTV/HLS6167WXXAA.asp)

Anyone have any opinions on it?

The price I found is $2189 and includes the Samsung TV stand made for this model.

Is this a good price? Is there somehting else I should be looking for?

Thanks in advance for your help.


I wouldn't buy a DLP today. Buy the Sony KDS60A2000 you will be glad you did.

[SoonerBBall]

Why wouldn't you buy a DLP today?

[Newbomb Turk]

Why wouldn't you buy a DLP today?

good question - I'd like to know too.

[Getem]

My folks have that exact TV and it is awesome. If you don't see the rainbow effect, then there's no reason not to buy this TV. It's the darling of image science professionals everywhere, because it can be calibrated closer to spec than any other RPTV available to date. That's a great price too, the cheapest I have seen it is $1800 without the stand.

You should watch some black and white material on it to determine if you see rainbows and if they would bother you. I can make myself see them on the right material, but they don't bother me. I have yet to see them on my folks TV.

[Frozen Sooner]

Only reasons I can think of to not buy a DLP are the aforementioned rainbow effects-which, really, any kind of display has some sort of image issues associated with it (i.e. banding and macroblocking with LCD, etc etc.)-and the fact that DLP has so many more moving parts than any other type of display that anecdotally I'm hearing they break down an awful lot. No numbers to back that up, though.

DLPs do give a very nice and sharp picture.

[85Sooner]

Why wouldn't you buy a DLP today?


Too many moving parts and inferior picture.

Notice DLP prices dropping like a stone??????????? It isn't by coincidence.

If you do get an extended warranty.

We are replacing alot of color wheels at 800.00 a pop :)

[SoonerBBall]

Hmm, I don't get this. Some people are saying DLP picture quality is very sharp and nice, and some say it has inferior quality.

Also, when comparing the different types of TVs in Best Buy, it always seems like the DLP picture is very sharp.

What is the difference with the Sony you recommended? Is it an LCD?

Thanks for the information. :D

[Frozen Sooner]

Also, when comparing the different types of TVs in Best Buy, it always seems like the DLP picture is very sharp.

I've said this a few times, and I'll say it again. Best Buy is possibly the worst place you could ever evaluate the picture quality on any display. The lighting conditions are horrible for TV evaluation and it's likely that someone's monkeyed with the calibration to put it into torch mode. The high ambient light washes out your comparison of black levels and diguises banding-which means that DLP and LCDs get a subjective boost vs. plasmas.

I don't think I agree with 85 on the picture quality of DLP, though. I've very rarely heard of any issues with this, though I have heard about the rainbow effect.

[Frozen Sooner]

Hey, 85, since you're a Sony sales guy, maybe you can help me with this technical question:

My Panny 42" plasma has a native resolution of 720p, but will accept 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. My PS3 says that it is auto-detecting the ability to output 1080p, and claims to be outputting that resolution to the display. The display is showing the picture just fine.

Now, here's my question: Is the display actually showing 1080p, is it interlacing the 1080p signal to 1080i, or is it scaling the picture to the 720p native resolution?

[Getem]

Some of the newer plasmas can accept 1080p. Are you using HDMI or component? It would still have to scale that to the 720p native resolution though.

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm using HDMI.

Whoo-hoo! I'm officially format-war protected! ;)

[Getem]

Hmm, I don't get this. Some people are saying DLP picture quality is very sharp and nice, and some say it has inferior quality.

Also, when comparing the different types of TVs in Best Buy, it always seems like the DLP picture is very sharp.

What is the difference with the Sony you recommended? Is it an LCD?

Thanks for the information. :D

The A2000 is an SXRD (Sony's LCOS) made cheaper than their XBR line. If I were going Sony, I wouldn't get that one, I'd get the XBR2. It's about $500 more I think.

All the HDTV prices have dropped, due to over-stocked inventories brought on by less-than-expected demand. Nothing specific to DLP.

[mrowl]

We are replacing alot of color wheels at 800.00 a pop :)

FYI, before preaching info that is not correct, look it up.

Mine replacement color wheel was $150, after 5 years of service.



and, LCD prices are dropping like stones for the same reasons.

[Getem]

FYI, before preaching info that is not correct, look it up.

Mine replacement color wheel was $150, after 5 years of service.



and, LCD prices are dropping like stones for the same reasons.

What, you haven't read your DLP FUD newsletter this month? It's up to $1000 now ;)

[soonerboomer93]

um, 85 sells them and they probably charge $800.00 a pop where he works

[85Sooner]

FYI, before preaching info that is not correct, look it up.

Mine replacement color wheel was $150, after 5 years of service.



and, LCD prices are dropping like stones for the same reasons.


Funny, I showed your post up here at work. Everyone laughed.
Don't know what to tell ya. The color wheel assemblies go for around 800.00.
BTW we don't service them. But we know several companies here is town that do.
Easy enough to verify. Call a tv wervice center and ask em.

[SoonerBBall]

I'm really just looking for a 57" to 61" HDTV that has a nice picture, will last me for a while with minimum maintenance, i can run my computer through, has 1080p & HDMI, and costs around $2000-$2300.

I don't like the picture on most plasmas because they seem really washed out and the colors bleed together, so I was looking at LCDs and DLPs.

[frankensooner]

Where are you looking at those plasmas? Best Buy?

[SoonerBBall]

No, I have two friends that have plasmas, and i worked at a computer lab with a plasma in the room for a year and a half. The pictures just never seemed very crisp on them.

[Getem]

Funny, I showed your post up here at work. Everyone laughed.
Don't know what to tell ya. The color wheel assemblies go for around 800.00.
BTW we don't service them. But we know several companies here is town that do.
Easy enough to verify. Call a tv wervice center and ask em.

http://ok-wood.com/sammy-color-wheel.jpg

Maybe your "tech" guys don't know the difference between a color wheel and a light engine

[Frozen Sooner]

BBall, if they looked washed out then either they were lower-tier models or they weren't calibrated correctly. They should look darker than an LCD or DLP or whatever, but color saturation should actually be very good.

[Getem]

Yeah, washed out color is not an attribute I'd associate with plasma.

If you want to hook a computer up to the DLP, you probably want the next higher model, the HLS6188. I think to get 1 to 1 pixel mapping, you have to disable overscan, and that feature is not available on the 6187.

[SoonerBBall]

The model i'm looking at is actually the 6167, not 6187. On the website, though, I can't tell what the differences between the two models are.

[Getem]

The model i'm looking at is actually the 6167, not 6187. On the website, though, I can't tell what the differences between the two models are.

Whoops! I'm not familiar with that model. Is that the Costco-only model?

[SoonerBBall]

Didn't see it at Costco, but I'm looking at it at Sams. I wasn't aware they made models for specific stores.

[Getem]

Poking around, it looks like that model is identical inside to the HLS6187. Difference is in the case, and some other external things like # of inputs. What I said about the 6188 still applies, the 6167 doesn't let you turn off the overscan. The difference is apparently not great, but you do get a sharper image.

[Vaevictis]

Too many moving parts and inferior picture.
(...)
We are replacing alot of color wheels at 800.00 a pop :)

Color wheels by themselves (on the DLPs I'm looking at, anyway) can be had for less than $200 each. Same goes for the bulb. Replacing the wheel, however, is non-trivial, and if you were to pay someone to do it, the labor + parts might very well approach $800.

And there's a flip side: On DLPs, the parts that fail are generally user-servicable. On LCDs and Plasmas, when bad stuff happens, you're pretty much stuck replacing the whole unit. Dead pixel? Sorry buddy, you're screwed. Burned in image? Good luck with that. But a dead bulb or color wheel? That can be swapped out.

[Getem]

It's non-trivial, but given that there are a number of do-it-yourself walkthroughs on the internet, it shouldn't take more than an hour for an experienced tv tech. So, if they're getting $800 for it, that's quite a labor rate. I took the post to mean the color wheel assembly itself was $800.

[85Sooner]

Color wheels by themselves (on the DLPs I'm looking at, anyway) can be had for less than $200 each. Same goes for the bulb. Replacing the wheel, however, is non-trivial, and if you were to pay someone to do it, the labor + parts might very well approach $800.

And there's a flip side: On DLPs, the parts that fail are generally user-servicable. On LCDs and Plasmas, when bad stuff happens, you're pretty much stuck replacing the whole unit. Dead pixel? Sorry buddy, you're screwed. Burned in image? Good luck with that. But a dead bulb or color wheel? That can be swapped out.

Beat me to it Vaevictis, most of the time they replace the whole assembly. replaceing a color wheel alone is kinda like changing your brake pads without turning the rotors. a short life should be expected.

Havn't seen a dead pixel of any kind in 2 years. Burn in is fairly rare and usually limited to those who do not listen to advice. I konw a few of those types.

LCOS or Sony SXRD+ no moving parts and user changable bulb, Great picture and reasonable price. No Brainer IMO

[85Sooner]

I'm using HDMI.

Whoo-hoo! I'm officially format-war protected! ;)


and giving all your information on everything you do to your cable/sat provider. Congrats!

HDMI is the debil. just wait and see!

[85Sooner]

BTW don't get me wrong, the samsungs are OK Its just I believe the sonys are better and more reliable. they are outselling the HLS's about 20-1 down here.

[Frozen Sooner]

and giving all your information on everything you do to your cable/sat provider. Congrats!

HDMI is the debil. just wait and see!

Er, no, my cable box is hooked up component.

The PS3 and the HD-DVD player are hooked up via HDMI.

[85Sooner]

Er, no, my cable box is hooked up component.

The PS3 and the HD-DVD player are hooked up via HDMI.


Gotcha. You have a temporary reprieve from the above statement:)

[Frozen Sooner]

Heh. I'm not a big fan of HDMI or any of the HDCP standards in the first place, but unfortunately if that's the only hookup I can use to get the PQ or AQ that I want, I gotta use it.

I used to be vehemently opposed to HDMI. Component is sufficient to pass 1080p video with plenty of headroom (as the XBox360 shows us) and optical is sufficient for almost all advanced audio codecs (lossless PCM 5.1 and above and TruHD are the only ones I can think of that it won't) but the damn HDCP standards make it so I can't upscale DVDs over component, and the PS3 won't pass anything more than 480p over component.

[Newbomb Turk]

Heh. I'm not a big fan of HDMI or any of the HDCP standards in the first place, but unfortunately if that's the only hookup I can use to get the PQ or AQ that I want, I gotta use it.

I used to be vehemently opposed to HDMI. Component is sufficient to pass 1080p video with plenty of headroom (as the XBox360 shows us) and optical is sufficient for almost all advanced audio codecs (lossless PCM 5.1 and above and TruHD are the only ones I can think of that it won't) but the damn HDCP standards make it so I can't upscale DVDs over component, and the PS3 won't pass anything more than 480p over component.

I'm trying to learn the HDTV lingo cause I'm getting ready to buy one. But I don't understand a thing Mike just said here.

[Frozen Sooner]

Heh. HDMI is a cabling standard over which both advanced audio and high-definition video can be carried. HDMI supports resolutions up to 1080p and all known audio codecs-including lossless 7.1 and Dolby TruHD, which is the best available commercially.

HDCP is "High Definition Copyright Protection." HDCP standards mandate that standard DVDs cannot be upconverted from 480p without the use of HDCP-compliant cabling-which is right now either HDMI cables or DVI cables. VGA does not fall under HDCP standards, so content can also be upconverted over VGA.

[85Sooner]

Heh. HDMI is a cabling standard over which both advanced audio and high-definition video can be carried. HDMI supports resolutions up to 1080p and all known audio codecs-including lossless 7.1 and Dolby TruHD, which is the best available commercially.

HDCP is "High Definition Copyright Protection." HDCP standards mandate that standard DVDs cannot be upconverted from 480p without the use of HDCP-compliant cabling-which is right now either HDMI cables or DVI cables. VGA does not fall under HDCP standards, so content can also be upconverted over VGA.


See? clear as a bell! I would add that Standard DVD 480p on a good 1080p display is not much different (almost un-noticable) than the upconverted one from those 129.00 dvd players that are 720p/1080i compliant.

[Frozen Sooner]

Well, yeah. That 1080p TV probably has a pretty nice line doubler and scaler built into it. :D

[Okieflyer]

The A2000 is an SXRD (Sony's LCOS) made cheaper than their XBR line. If I were going Sony, I wouldn't get that one, I'd get the XBR2. It's about $500 more I think.

All the HDTV prices have dropped, due to over-stocked inventories brought on by less-than-expected demand. Nothing specific to DLP.

Yes, but is it worth the extra money?

Is there that much difference in picture to justify the price?

Which BTW, the XBR prices I've seen are about $800 to $1000 more than the A2000.

Is it going to matter if your looking to buy now? Or should you wait for the BXR line to come down in price, which may not be until next year?

[Newbomb Turk]

Heh. HDMI is a cabling standard over which both advanced audio and high-definition video can be carried. HDMI supports resolutions up to 1080p and all known audio codecs-including lossless 7.1 and Dolby TruHD, which is the best available commercially.

HDCP is "High Definition Copyright Protection." HDCP standards mandate that standard DVDs cannot be upconverted from 480p without the use of HDCP-compliant cabling-which is right now either HDMI cables or DVI cables. VGA does not fall under HDCP standards, so content can also be upconverted over VGA.

Mike - thanks for the explaination.
85 - appreciate all of the info.

[Newbomb Turk]

Yes, but is it worth the extra money?

Is there that much difference in picture to justify the price?

Which BTW, the XBR prices I've seen are about $800 to $1000 more than the A2000.

Is it going to matter if your looking to buy now? Or should you wait for the BXR line to come down in price, which may not be until next year?

you are an overpaid government worker :P - just spend your money you tightwad.

[Okieflyer]

85Sooner,

you recommend the Sony KDS-**A2000? What about viewing angle. Is it good?

I never buy the warranty. Why should I?

[Taxman71]

85Sooner,

you recommend the Sony KDS-**A2000? What about viewing angle. Is it good?

I never buy the warranty. Why should I?

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/2/137540.html

I bought the Sony A10 (LCD rear projection) last year (due to lots of research and 85's advice). No regrets whatsoever. I saw the same TV at Sam's the other day and it stills blows the other pictures away IMO (for a grand cheaper than last year).

However, I did get a 4 year warranty to please the wife.

[85Sooner]

85Sooner,

you recommend the Sony KDS-**A2000? What about viewing angle. Is it good?

I never buy the warranty. Why should I?


Veiwing angle is good. No warr. needed.

[85Sooner]

Yes, but is it worth the extra money?

Is there that much difference in picture to justify the price?

Which BTW, the XBR prices I've seen are about $800 to $1000 more than the A2000.

Is it going to matter if your looking to buy now? Or should you wait for the BXR line to come down in price, which may not be until next year?


Believe it or not with our sales price we are selling the 60A2000 for 2397.00
and the 60XBR for 2997.00. Keep in mind that the XBR comes with an additionaly lamp so that is worth some of the cost difference.

The XBR is brighter and sharper than the 2000

[Okieflyer]

Believe it or not with our sales price we are selling the 60A2000 for 2397.00
and the 60XBR for 2997.00. Keep in mind that the XBR comes with an additionaly lamp so that is worth some of the cost difference.

The XBR is brighter and sharper than the 2000

What's the difference between the BR1 and BR2?

Hey I would also like to thank you guys for answering people's questions on this board. I know it takes time and sometimes you never see any benefit for it.

[Boomer.....]

HDMI is the debil. just wait and see!

Why do you say that? I have heard that there is not much difference in picture quality between HDMI cable and component cables, but could a HDMI cable hurt your tv?

[Taxman71]

What's the difference between the BR1 and BR2?


BR1 vs. BR2 (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-2nj54S8dQT7/cgi-bin/ProdComp.asp?g=147350&c=16&s=0&cc=01&pt2=0&compareitems=158SR60XBR&compareitems=158SR60XB2&x=8&y=2)

[Frozen Sooner]

Why do you say that? I have heard that there is not much difference in picture quality between HDMI cable and component cables, but could a HDMI cable hurt your tv?

It depends on the quality of the D/A converter built into your TV. Most TVs have better D/A converters than the ones built into the source, so HDMI to the TV gives a sharper picture than component. In other cases, the source has a better D/A converter and can give you a better picture over component. Both component and HDMI can carry resolution up to 1080p, so there's no real huge picture difference in the cabling, though there are artificial restrictions placed on resolutions by DVDs and possibly soon on HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray.

HDMI can also support better sound than optical if you can plug it into your receiver.

HDMI has some problems with some TVs. HDMI allows communication between the TV and the source, so there can sometimes be issues where the TV gives a command to the source that the source doesn't understand. For example, I had a DVD player that decided to shut itself off when I'd switch between sources, which could be annoying if all I was doing was checking a score. Theoretically, HDMI could also be used by a cable company to collect information on your TV usage.


edit: D/A=Digital to Analog

[Frozen Sooner]

What's the difference between the BR1 and BR2?

Hey I would also like to thank you guys for answering people's questions on this board. I know it takes time and sometimes you never see any benefit for it.

My benefit to answering questions is that more people get into high definition. The more people who get into high definition, the more high definition contect becomes available. I want one HD optical disk system to win so that I can start expanding my library!

[OUstud]

Two words: Sony Wega.

[Newbomb Turk]

Hey I would also like to thank you guys for answering people's questions on this board.

you are welcome. ;)

[Newbomb Turk]

edit: D/A=Digital to Analog

oh, sure. Mike throws HDTV acronyms around like they are going out of style. He finally uses one I know, and he defines it! :mad:

;)

[85Sooner]

Why do you say that? I have heard that there is not much difference in picture quality between HDMI cable and component cables, but could a HDMI cable hurt your tv?


HDMI w HDCP is the industries way of creating a standard connection that will allow providers to monitor all your veiwing habits and prevent recording and duplication of video

[Frozen Sooner]

Well, duplication anyhow. The DVR people are never going to allow recording of TV shows to die out.

[Okieflyer]

you are welcome. ;)

Not you! Your the one guy on here that knows less than I do! :P

[Newbomb Turk]

I wouldn't buy a DLP today. Buy the Sony KDS60A2000 you will be glad you did.

Okieflyer and I went to Circuit City after work yesterday, and looked at the KDS60A2000. It was beside two DLP sets (one Mitsubishi, can't remember the other). The A2000 looked much better than the other two.
Okie is so gonna get one of these.

We also checked out a 1080p Sony flat-panel LCD that was being fed by a Blu-Ray player. Absolutely unbelievable how crisp the picture was. Couldn't believe the difference between 720p and 1080p.

[mrowl]

Funny, I showed your post up here at work. Everyone laughed.
Don't know what to tell ya. The color wheel assemblies go for around 800.00.
BTW we don't service them. But we know several companies here is town that do.
Easy enough to verify. Call a tv wervice center and ask em.

your right. the assemblies cost around $800, I priced it. But the color wheel by itself is all you need to replace. $150.

[mrowl]

I was wrong... its $111.13


http://www.partstore.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductSKU=3803880&s=cjfeed

http://pictures.partsearch.com/8a0/8a0c905b81b94cdd8e430b36049c65be.jpg

[Okieflyer]

Some other things I didn't understand...

The XBR1 under the heading of "1080p compatable" says Conversion. While the XBR2 and A2000 say Conversion Direct Input.

CableCard Compatable. Would this do me any good if I have a Directtv Receiver with TIVO?

The IEEE 1394 inputs. What would hook up to that?

What other than Blu-Ray would you get 1080p. Is this something that will be coming soon. i.e. broadcasts in 1080p. or is this something in the distant future?

Please be gentle to me. I'm just an ignorant Sooner HDTV wanter.

[mrowl]

NBC, Universal HD, CBS, The CW, HBO, Showtime, Starz!, INHD, HDNet ,TNT, and Discovery HD Theater currently broadcast 1080i content.

1080p I have only seen used by some film makers, and is used in some theaters.


Cable card has nothing to do with DirecTV. But if you just used a stand alone tivo, you can put a cable card supplied by cable company, or Fios, in the tivo, or your tivo, and have no need for a seperate box.

IEEE 1394 (Firewire), can be used for connections like high end audio, video stuff, camcorders, digital cameras, etc... but the device must have a firewire 1394 connection, and I haven't seen very many.

[85Sooner]

Some other things I didn't understand...

The XBR1 under the heading of "1080p compatable" says Conversion. While the XBR2 and A2000 say Conversion Direct Input.

CableCard Compatable. Would this do me any good if I have a Directtv Receiver with TIVO?

The IEEE 1394 inputs. What would hook up to that?

What other than Blu-Ray would you get 1080p. Is this something that will be coming soon. i.e. broadcasts in 1080p. or is this something in the distant future?

Please be gentle to me. I'm just an ignorant Sooner HDTV wanter.


The XBR1 was 1080p resolution with 720p inputs. The xbr2 and 2000 series have 1080p inputs.

Cable card is cor cable companies only and was taken off the new models because the structure of the way cable will be delivered to your house in the future is changing and requires a two way communication device (currently Cable cards are one way)

IEEE1394 hook up for digital camcorders

Broadcast in 1080p are being discussed and planned on as soon as mpeg 4 really gets rolling.

Anything else?

[85Sooner]

Well, duplication anyhow. The DVR people are never going to allow recording of TV shows to die out.


But they are going to install a device that auto erases after a certain time period without payment and they will cease allowing duplication of material even for low res content.

Also notice the little thingy that Directv just ceased their partnership woth Tivo. hum so long, farewell, goodbye.

[Frozen Sooner]

1080p is currently available on the following sources:

Blu-Ray
HD-DVD
XBox 360
PS3

[OUAndy1807]

so is my 42" Grand Wega not a high definition tv because it only goes up to 1080i?

[85Sooner]

so is my 42" Grand Wega not a high definition tv because it only goes up to 1080i?


Your 42" is high def. Actually your tv goes up to 720p (higher than 1080i)

[OUAndy1807]

but wait, 720 is lower than 1080.

I don't get tv's.

also, I'm kind of ****ed, because I think I could have shoehorned a 46" version of our same TV into the entertainment center.

[Frozen Sooner]

There's debate as to whether 1080i or 720p is a better resolution. 1080i will technically give you a sharper picture, but 720p will give you less "jaggy" effect on movement and fewer artifacts. Both 1080i and 720p are high definition standards.

[JohnnyMack]

I have a DLP. Fine for now. However I gotta say that my gut feel is that DLP and Plasma's are lame duck technologies. LCD and SED will rule the roost 5 years from now.

Remember I posted this and see how smart I am on 12/28/11.

[Getem]

I was wrong... its $111.13


http://www.partstore.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductSKU=3803880&s=cjfeed

http://pictures.partsearch.com/8a0/8a0c905b81b94cdd8e430b36049c65be.jpg

That IS the color wheel assembly. The only parts on a DLP that would cost $800 are the light engine and the DMD chip assembly.