Hockey fights vs. Basketball fights

[Frozen Sooner]

Someone made an offhand comment to me yesterday and I can't come up with a good response to it.

The NHL has fights pretty much every night-and fights that involve everyone on the ice at once happen with regularity.

The NBA has, at most, one fight a year.

Why is it that when it happens in the NBA, people talk incessantly about the thuggery and gangster attitudes in basketball, but nobody every really talks about it with hockey?

Now, don't get me wrong-I'm not condoning fighting in sports at all. I've also heard the explanation that hockey needs limited fighting because you've got huge men with sticks and blades running around out there and you have to blow a little steam off or someone's going to get killed when someone blows their top. I don't really buy it, though.

Is it just that nobody really cares about hockey and this would be a bigger deal if more people watched? Because even when hockey was popular I don't recall anyone complaining that much about the fighting.

[jk the sooner fan]

because fights have ALWAYS been a part of hockey.....and from where basketball came....there were none........basketball has evolved into a perception (real or not) of thuggery on the court

while hockey has really stayed pretty much the same

[RacerX]

and that is a great explanation.

Fighting does not belong in sport.

The two "sports" dedicated to fighting are pretty much bull****.

[Frozen Sooner]

I beg to differ, jk. The history of basketball is rife with fights. Sure, it hasn't been real common in the NBA era, but back in the days right after it became a professional sport fights were pretty common.

[King Crimson]

the NBA also markets itself as a kind of hip hop cultural and lifestyle authority.....so, it's an easy elision (logical or spurious, i don't know) to associate on-court misdeeds with off-court marketing persona--real or perceived.

i'm not a hockey fan in general so i can't speculate on it.

[jk the sooner fan]

ok, i could be wrong, i just dont remember it

but really......we see fights in baseball and football as well.....i think the thing that gives basketball a bad name is because it happens on a smaller court and more confined area.....so it always looks more chaotic than it is

football,.......sure, let them beat each other, are they going to hurt each other with all that padding on?

baseball......meh....

i just think alot of basketball's problems with fights is that it appears to be connected to the whole hip hop/rap "thing"

i'm not saying my answer is right, its just mine

[RacerX]

this discussion aside, Carmello, what a puss. He gets in a cheap shot and then runs away.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Typical gangsta move...

[JohnnyMack]

First off, it is my opinion that hockey is far from bull****.

Hockey players are probably pound for pound the most talented athletes of any of the four major professional sports.

Fighting hasn't always been a part of hockey, nor is it nearly as prevalant as it was 15 - 25 years ago (there were a total of 4 fights in the entire NHL Saturday night).

In European and International leagues, fighting is all but non-existent. Fighting in the NHL was pushed by the higher ups as a way to draw attention to the sport, a marketing ploy that kinda got away from them. If you watch much NHL today the sport is really opening up and really becoming a lot more like what is seen in the Olympics and less like the Hanson brothers.

That being said jk is right to a degree, basketball has never had that kind of fighting so it's more noticable. Baseball has its share of brawls, but they don't draw the attention that basketball fights do.

[King Crimson]

Melo's new shoe line just came out a couple weeks ago, i bet the folks at Nike are thrilled.

[Frozen Sooner]

First off, it is my opinion that hockey is far from bull****.

Hockey players are probably pound for pound the most talented athletes of any of the four major professional sports.

Fighting hasn't always been a part of hockey, nor is it nearly as prevalant as it was 15 - 25 years ago (there were a total of 4 fights in the entire NHL Saturday night).

In European and International leagues, fighting is all but non-existent. Fighting in the NHL was pushed by the higher ups as a way to draw attention to the sport, a marketing ploy that kinda got away from them. If you watch much NHL today the sport is really opening up and really becoming a lot more like what is seen in the Olympics and less like the Hanson brothers.

That being said jk is right to a degree, basketball has never had that kind of fighting so it's more noticable. Baseball has its share of brawls, but they don't draw the attention that basketball fights do.

I agree 100% that fighting in hockey detracts from the game. In fact, it encourages teams to have less-skilled enforcers running around.

It's interesting that there were four fights in the NHL on Sunday, yet they've garnered no discussion while the ONE fight in the NBA this year has been the topic of much consternation.

Yeah, it's probably more noticeable because it happens less often, and I agree that it has to do in part with the culture the NBA associates itself with.

[jk the sooner fan]

the very nature of the fights has alot to do with the difference.......in hockey, its generally very controlled....two guys circling, surrounded by the refs.....they each get a punch in, or a jersey gets pulled over the head and then its over.....generally

in basketball...the fights are generally much more chaotic and look alot like a melee

[JohnnyMack]

the very nature of the fights has alot to do with the difference.......in hockey, its generally very controlled....two guys circling, surrounded by the refs.....they each get a punch in, or a jersey gets pulled over the head and then its over.....generally

in basketball...the fights are generally much more chaotic and look alot like a melee

Very rarely in hockey do you have pandemonium on the ice. It happens, but not very often. In hockey the fights are typically very well thought out. It's kind of a given that if you took a run at Gretzky, you were gonna end up fighting McSorley. Calculated risks if you will.

[Beef]

The NHL is smart enough not to sell seats that are on the ice. The NBA's fights always look bad because of the proximity of the fans to the fights. Or the fans being involved in the fights. MLB looked pretty bad after the Rangers chair incident, the Sheffield deal, and the Cubs thing a couple of years ago.

[Frozen Sooner]

Very rarely in hockey do you have pandemonium on the ice. It happens, but not very often. In hockey the fights are typically very well thought out. It's kind of a given that if you took a run at Gretzky, you were gonna end up fighting McSorley. Calculated risks if you will.

To be fair, what was Wayne going to do? Hit you with his purse?

"Look, I'm going to make Gretzky's head bleed! Look! His head is bleeding and his little legs are kicking on the ice!"

But yeah, the NHL has done a better job of making sure that melees stay between two guys. Most of the fighting in pro hockey is pretty staged for the crowd, anyhow. There's a guy I know who played in the Blues system who flat-out admitted as much-he'd take a dive for the other team's enforcer on their ice and the other dude would dive at his home games. They figured they were both going to get a five-minute anyhow, who cares who "won" the fight? Might as well make the fans happy.

[Scott D]

Actually if you are going with using the NHL, fighting has been declining for years. The rules tend to discourage it for the most part (ie..instigator rule). The types of players that generally get into fights have also been somewhat phased out of the game with the rule changes...nowadays those who can fight also have some skill in other areas of the game.

In hockey, fighting is generally used as a deterrant to the potentially worse things that could happen (ie...the McSorley chop on Brashear, the Bertuzzi tackle on Steve Moore). As jk said, the linesmen are generally right there in the vicinity to break it up before it gets too bad.

That being said, there have actually been a few all out brawls over the course of the past 10 years in the NHL. The two most famous are probably the Colorado/Detroit ones, followed by a couple involving the Islanders.

oh and JM, fighting has always been a part of hockey. It starts in junior hockey, you'd be surprized how many guys end up being 'goons' in professional hockey in North America whom were relatively skilled scorers in junior. European leagues in general have stricter enforcement (ie suspensions) if you fight there, which is why there is little to no fighting over there.

Beef, the NHL isn't smart in that regard, if they could find a way to sell seating there without the threat of a lawsuit for a fan death they'd do it. Even 60-70 years ago they had fences of chicken wire around the boards to prevent an errant puck from killing someone in the stands.

Can't really blame fights in basketball on the 'hip hop culture', because I defy you to explain McHale and Bird throwing fists a few times during their careers, and I definitely want you to explain Danny Ainge going around biting people.

[PhxSooner]

Hey, I saw one of the four fights Saturday, if one between the Coyotes and Flames counts. That fight lasted a pretty long time; my daughter loved it.:D

On a side note, while it's any interesting idea, dancers on the ice are really not that great. My son would disagree, though.

[jk the sooner fan]

Matthew Barnaby....who i guess is pretty well known for his fights, now plays with the Stars....before the season, they were interviewing him on the ticket and he said that alot of the rookie's coming up want to scrum with him just so they can say they've been in a fight with Barnaby....kind of silly, but whatever

[Scott D]

Matthew Barnaby....who i guess is pretty well known for his fights, now plays with the Stars....before the season, they were interviewing him on the ticket and he said that alot of the rookie's coming up want to scrum with him just so they can say they've been in a fight with Barnaby....kind of silly, but whatever

real silly...because it's Barnaby. He's as much of a ***** as Darcy Tucker :)

[King Crimson]

Can't really blame fights in basketball on the 'hip hop culture', because I defy you to explain McHale and Bird throwing fists a few times during their careers, and I definitely want you to explain Danny Ainge going around biting people.

i, for one, am not blaming the Anthony/Smith/Collins fight on hip hop culture, i'm saying that it enters into the way many people begin to attribute blame or look for social "causes" for perceived "thuggery". It's intellectually sloppy, but it appears to be a pretty consistent response when the NBA is criticized for a panoply of things ranging from quality of play to league image and player dress codes etc. .

[Frozen Sooner]

Actually if you are going with using the NHL, fighting has been declining for years. The rules tend to discourage it for the most part (ie..instigator rule). The types of players that generally get into fights have also been somewhat phased out of the game with the rule changes...nowadays those who can fight also have some skill in other areas of the game.

In hockey, fighting is generally used as a deterrant to the potentially worse things that could happen (ie...the McSorley chop on Brashear, the Bertuzzi tackle on Steve Moore). As jk said, the linesmen are generally right there in the vicinity to break it up before it gets too bad.

That being said, there have actually been a few all out brawls over the course of the past 10 years in the NHL. The two most famous are probably the Colorado/Detroit ones, followed by a couple involving the Islanders.

oh and JM, fighting has always been a part of hockey. It starts in junior hockey, you'd be surprized how many guys end up being 'goons' in professional hockey in North America whom were relatively skilled scorers in junior. European leagues in general have stricter enforcement (ie suspensions) if you fight there, which is why there is little to no fighting over there.

Beef, the NHL isn't smart in that regard, if they could find a way to sell seating there without the threat of a lawsuit for a fan death they'd do it. Even 60-70 years ago they had fences of chicken wire around the boards to prevent an errant puck from killing someone in the stands.

Can't really blame fights in basketball on the 'hip hop culture', because I defy you to explain McHale and Bird throwing fists a few times during their careers, and I definitely want you to explain Danny Ainge going around biting people.

Yes, the fighting in the NHL is declining. The NHL is trying to clean up their image, and the influx of Euro talent isn't hurting. The NHL also thinks the solution to their ratings woes is a more wide-open high-scoring game-and the fewer goons you have to have on your roster the more snipers you can have out there.

I've heard the reasoning that the fights are used as a pressure valve, but I just don't buy it. Watch Euro hockey sometime. Fights are VERY rare, and I can't recall hearing about anyone taking off a skate and stabbing someone with it.

I don't think anyone was blaming the fights on hip-hop culture-at least I wasn't. The connection was that America gets more riled up about it BECAUSE of the connection to hip-hop culture. Two dudes with mullets mix it up outside a bar, and it's a drunken bar fight. Two dudes with cornrows and tats mix it up downtown and it's a gang war.

[JohnnyMack]

oh and JM, fighting has always been a part of hockey. It starts in junior hockey, you'd be surprized how many guys end up being 'goons' in professional hockey in North America whom were relatively skilled scorers in junior. European leagues in general have stricter enforcement (ie suspensions) if you fight there, which is why there is little to no fighting over there.

I wasn't saying it wasn't always part of it, just that the fighting became much more prevalant and actually peaked about 15-20 years ago.

[HoserSooner]

As a huge hockey fan, I do not like the new "pussified" version of the NHL that the twitchy little prick of a commisioner has ushered in. Fighting has been in hockey for as long as anyone can remember, and it adds excitement to the game. Banning fighting to me makes as much sense as banning stealing in baseball, the 24 second shot clock in basketball, and the 2 point convert in football.

And to quote Don Cherry, when is the last time someone went to get a beer during a fightt? If you are in the stands at a game, and a fight breaks out, the whole arena is on its feet.

But some would suggest that fighting isn't popular with fans.

:rolleyes:

[jk the sooner fan]

I wasn't saying it wasn't always part of it, just that the fighting became much more prevalant and actually peaked about 15-20 years ago.

you mean when roller derby was popular?

[Frozen Sooner]

Fighting is popular with hockey's current fanbase. If hockey wants to expand beyond that fanbase, they're going to have to appeal to more than the five people currently watching.

[Scott D]

Fighting is appealing in hockey the way that the 5 people that watch NASCAR watch to see a wreck.

[bri]

Whenever people ask me who I root for in NASCAR, I always reply, "Wall."

I think the big thing between hockey fights and NBA brawls is that hockey is a physical, contact sport, whereas basketball is a (supposedly) non-contact sport. So, you know, a bench-clearing donneybrook erupting during a basketball game is as seemingly strange and alarming as someone throwing a chair at the national spelling bee.

[JohnnyMack]

Whenever people ask me who I root for in NASCAR, I always reply, "Wall."

I think the big thing between hockey fights and NBA brawls is that hockey is a physical, contact sport, whereas basketball is a (supposedly) non-contact sport. So, you know, a bench-clearing donneybrook erupting during a basketball game is as seemingly strange and alarming as someone throwing a chair at the national spelling bee.

Or having your first orgasm at said spelling bee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1RXN5r2CpE

[BigRedJed]

...I don't think anyone was blaming the fights on hip-hop culture-at least I wasn't. The connection was that America gets more riled up about it BECAUSE of the connection to hip-hop culture. Two dudes with mullets mix it up outside a bar, and it's a drunken bar fight. Two dudes with cornrows and tats mix it up downtown and it's a gang war.
I agree. Since I was never a huge NBA fan before the Hornets started playing here, I was pleasantly surprised by the LACK of thugginess in the league. I was falling into the same old intellectual laziness a lot of non-fans fall into. I bought tickets to support my city, but was drawn in by the quality of play and the surprisingly family friendly atmosphere. And yes, I have been to games in markets other than OKC.

For the most part, the players all know each other and seem to like each other. Lots of hugs, high-fives etc. before and after games, lots of friendly small talk during games.

That said, there is certainly trash talk and ultra-competitive posturing during games. Remember, these guys are some of the premier athletes in the world and are highly competitive. But I see WAY more trash talk in college football, for instance, than I do in NBA games. The NBA actually does a lot more to enforce rules against verbal abuse than most other sports.

As for ridiculous brawls, like Froze said there's what, one per year? There are more than 700 games played in an NBA season and pre-season. As far as I can figure, that's about roughly the same as the TOTAL NUMBER OF FOOTBALL GAMES played by all teams in all BCS conferences, COMBINED. If you factor in the post season, there are far more NBA games played in a season than in the entirety of BCS-conference college football.

As physical as the game now is, somebody is bound to take exception to a hard foul at least once or twice per season. I'll guarantee you that there are as many, if not more brawls at college football games than there are at NBA games, but nobody's comparing college football to pro wrestling.

[BigRedJed]

And believe me, the NBA is definitely NOT a non-contact sport these days.

[bri]

I know it isn't; that's why I hate it.

Basketball is a non-contact sport; "Ballin'" is.

[Frozen Sooner]

Pfft. Basketball is and always has been a contact sport.

[Scott D]

And believe me, the NBA is definitely NOT a non-contact sport these days.

Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard and Shaquille O'Neal disagree with you.

[DustySooner]

Maybe alot of it has to do with the role model factor. Alot of kids look up to players like Kobe, Wade, Carmello, and Lebron and have dreams to be just like them when they're older. That's why the players can't let their emotions get the best of them. You rarely hear about kids idolizing hockey players from some reason..unless they're from up north maybe.

[Scott D]

but yet youth hockey enrollment has increased in southern states every year for the past decade.

[soonerboomer93]

Can't really blame fights in basketball on the 'hip hop culture', because I defy you to explain McHale and Bird throwing fists a few times during their careers, and I definitely want you to explain Danny Ainge going around biting people.

Maybe because Danny Ainge is a little bitch???

:D

[85Sooner]

First off, it is my opinion that hockey is far from bull****.

Hockey players are probably pound for pound the most talented athletes of any of the four major professional sports.

Fighting hasn't always been a part of hockey, nor is it nearly as prevalant as it was 15 - 25 years ago (there were a total of 4 fights in the entire NHL Saturday night).

In European and International leagues, fighting is all but non-existent. Fighting in the NHL was pushed by the higher ups as a way to draw attention to the sport, a marketing ploy that kinda got away from them. If you watch much NHL today the sport is really opening up and really becoming a lot more like what is seen in the Olympics and less like the Hanson brothers.

That being said jk is right to a degree, basketball has never had that kind of fighting so it's more noticable. Baseball has its share of brawls, but they don't draw the attention that basketball fights do.


You sir are brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hockey is the only sport that has a "penalty" for fighting during a game. definitely not a politically correct sport.

ITS MAN LAW

[tbl]

oh and JM, fighting has always been a part of hockey. It starts in junior hockey, you'd be surprized how many guys end up being 'goons' in professional hockey in North America whom were relatively skilled scorers in junior. European leagues in general have stricter enforcement (ie suspensions) if you fight there, which is why there is little to no fighting over there.

Absolutely. My boss was a hardcore defensemen growing up in Minnesota in the early 80's and he fought all the time through high school and the secondary leagues. It's just the nature of the beast.

[Vaevictis]

Appearances matter. How many NHL players look like and dress like Allen Iverson? How many NBA players do?

If you do your goddamn best to look and act like a thug, don't be suprised when people think you're a thug.

The NHL has long considered itself a "gentleman's game" and the players have typically comported themselves as such off the ice. NBA players? Not so much.

The end.

[royalfan5]

Appearances matter. How many NHL players look like and dress like Allen Iverson? How many NBA players do?

If you do your goddamn best to look and act like a thug, don't be suprised when people think you're a thug.

The NHL has long considered itself a "gentleman's game" and the players have typically comported themselves as such off the ice. NBA players? Not so much.

The end.
There have been a bunch of NHL players that have done prison time too. Bob Probert, Danny Heatley, Mike Danton, and Craig Mactavish come to mind immediately. I remember reading about a WHA player that was on work release with his team, that guy was the basis for Ogie Oglethorpe in Slapshot. The NHL has had more than it's share of ne'er do wells, they are just much less publicized than the NBA.

[soonerboomer93]

I think the other thing is that when you look at an NHL player, they're all dressed in pads and helmets and protective gear. NBA players are in shorts and a jersey, no heavy padding. That may make it seem much worse

[Frozen Sooner]

Heh. Bob Probert. The guy who broke out of alcohol treatment and took a bunch of underagers drinking with him on the escape.

[RacerX]

First off, it is my opinion that hockey is far from bull****.

I wasn't talking about hockey. I was talking about boxing and "professional" wrestling.

[Scott D]

Heh. Bob Probert. The guy who broke out of alcohol treatment and took a bunch of underagers drinking with him on the escape.

I've got a bunch of Probert stories :)

the guy is a good guy....when sober.

Vae, blaming 'hip hop style' for a 'thug' image in the NBA is still inaccurate. Look at the NBA from the mid 70s through the mid 80s. I'm sure you'll find it was considered pretty 'thuggish' back then also.

[royalfan5]

I've got a bunch of Probert stories :)

the guy is a good guy....when sober.

Vae, blaming 'hip hop style' for a 'thug' image in the NBA is still inaccurate. Look at the NBA from the mid 70s through the mid 80s. I'm sure you'll find it was considered pretty 'thuggish' back then also.
Have you ever read Loose Balls by Terry Pluto about the ABA? It's a wildly entertaining book. Folks would really lose it if basketball players still acted like that.

[Scott D]

Eh, I lived in Denver and went to games in the days of the ABA.

[royalfan5]

Eh, I lived in Denver and went to games in the days of the ABA.
Did you see Larry Brown coaching in overalls?

[Scott D]

I saw Doug Moe in some godawful suits that fit right in during that decade.

[mxATVracer10]

I'll tell you who the NBA should be blaming.... those God Damned And 1 Mixtapes!!!! :texan:

[Frozen Sooner]

I've got a bunch of Probert stories :)

the guy is a good guy....when sober.

Vae, blaming 'hip hop style' for a 'thug' image in the NBA is still inaccurate. Look at the NBA from the mid 70s through the mid 80s. I'm sure you'll find it was considered pretty 'thuggish' back then also.

I'll bet you do. Probert is a Detroit legend.

For every Detroit Pistons Bad Boys you've got a Philly Broad Street Brawlers...

[Scott D]

I'll tell you who the NBA should be blaming.... those God Damned And 1 Mixtapes!!!! :texan:

I'm sure the And1 Mixtapes are to blame for Kermit Washington rearranging Rudy Tomjanovich's face.

[mxATVracer10]

sorry, before my time chief :D

Just read a USA Today story about it though, pretty interesting...

[royalfan5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVnlPq_kYns

NBA brawl from the 80's with A.C. Green

[BigRedJed]

L.A. Lakers fast break makers
Kings of the court shake and bake all takers
Back to back is a bad *** fact a claim that remains in tact
M-A-G-I-C see you on the court
Buck has come to play his way and his way is to thwart
M-A-G-I-C magic of the buck
Other teams pray for dreams
But he don't give a ****
Penetrating the lane like a bullet train
Comes the magic blood a telepathic brain
Knucklehead suckers better duck
When the buck comes through like a truck
Scott stops pops and drops it in
On his way back gets a little skin
From the hand of a man named A.C. Green
Slam so hard break your T.V. screen
Worthy's hot with his tomahawk
Take it to the hole make your mamma talk
I hate to burst your bubble but triple double trouble
Is coming to your town and he's going to make rubble
L.A. Lakers fast break makers
Kings of the court shake and bake all takers
Back to back is a bad *** fact a claim that remains in tact
Lakers are the team that I watch on the telly
'Cause they got more moves
Than a bowl full of jelly
The buck stops here - pops - then cheers
A roar through the Forum
That deafens my ears
The one and only know if his kind
Sits in a throne
Not for the records that he holds
But for being bald and bold
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
All time great super super star
I hate to burst your bubble but triple double trouble
Is coming to your town and he's going to make rubble
Does anybody want some Magic Johnson
L.A. Lakers fast break makers
Kings of the court shake and bake all takers
Back to back is a bad *** fact a claim that remains in tact

[mxATVracer10]

I picture Run DMC laying that rap down.... is that right?

[Scott D]

that'd be a negative

[BigRedJed]

I picture Run DMC laying that rap down.... is that right?
Uhh... ...no.

[Sooner_Havok]

I think the US could compete better in international hockey play if they would cut out the fighting in the NHL. But I m only a long time hockey fan who doesn't enjoy the fighting all that much.

[Scott D]

I think the US could compete better in international hockey play if they would cut out the fighting in the NHL. But I m only a long time hockey fan who doesn't enjoy the fighting all that much.

nah, the problem with US Hockey is the same as US Soccer. We are so into teaching structure and rigidity to children when they are small we all but stifle creativity. Push creativeness in youth hockey and find a way to make our rinks international sized and we wouldn't do so poorly.