The Middle East: Are There Any Voices Of Reason?

[FaninAma]

It seems that the entire region is consumed with hate.

Sunni v. Shiite(religious)
Hamas v. Fatah(political)

How long can a society exist on hate?

I have suspected that a goal of the West was to get the different factions in the region to turn their hatred on each other instead of directing it outward on the West.

Cynical view? Yes. But what other solutions are there to combating attacks on the West?

[bri]

It's like the South Oval, only with more sand and oil. :D

[OklahomaTuba]

I thought about that very same thing while reading VDH yesterday. Here is his latest article. Spot on as usual.


Like Watching the Oedipus or Ajax?

The war since 9/11 is sort of like a Greek tragedy whose end we all anticipate, but apparently have no means to avoid. We tried to remove the worst of the Middle East’s murdering regimes, and to offer in their places consensual governments that might serve as models how Muslims need not kill each other, and need not ruin their economies and oppress the innocent. But all the while Islamic jihadism keeps trying to repeat September 11, with the clandestine aid—whether sanctuary, cash, or arms—from Iran, Pakistan, Syria, and Saudi Arabia.

We periodically arrest these wannabe terrorists as we kill jihadists in Afghanistan and Iraq. But at some point, it is likely, whether from sheer exhaustion or from our own internecine squabbling here at home, we will lower, if even for a second, our guard, and thus experience another mass murdering. And then the United States will be in a quandary, realizing that a sophisticated, and complex society cannot long endure with a catastrophic attack on its homeland about every five years from radical Islamists who count on their sponsors claiming deniability of culpability. At that point, we will either unload on host nations, or John Kerry/Jimmy Carter our way out of it through concessions and beseeching. Either way something either frightening or creepy is in store for us all—unless we begin to get serious and secure both Afghanistan and Iraq, and put Syria and Iran on notice that they will be held collectively responsible for any of their jihadist terrorists who kill outside their borders.

http://victordavishanson.pajamasmedia.com/2006/12/15/things_are_coming_to_a_head.php

[Scott D]

It seems that the entire region is consumed with hate.

Sunni v. Shiite(religious)
Hamas v. Fatah(political)

How long can a society exist on hate?

I have suspected that a goal of the West was to get the different factions in the region to turn their hatred on each other instead of directing it outward on the West.

Cynical view? Yes. But what other solutions are there to combating attacks on the West?

seems to be an issue with humanity in general.

[olevetonahill]

It seems that the entire region is consumed with hate.

Sunni v. Shiite(religious)
Hamas v. Fatah(political)

How long can a society exist on hate?

I have suspected that a goal of the West was to get the different factions in the region to turn their hatred on each other instead of directing it outward on the West.

Cynical view? Yes. But what other solutions are there to combating attacks on the West?

How long can they last , you ask ?
I think theres something like 6000 yrs of hate there . just mho

[WILBURJIM]

How long can they last , you ask ?
I think theres something like 6000 yrs of hate there . just mho
I don't think the lineage of this present day hate goes back 6000 years.
The shi'a/sunni split happened roughly 1300 years and Hamas/Fatah only recently began fighting as both organizations are born out of the Palestinian Arab movement that is less than 100 years old.

[Partial Qualifier]

I think what Ole' Vet is saying - they've been killing each other over religious views in that region for 6000+ years. Shiite/Sunni, Muslim/Christian, Dweebies/Dickheads. Pick your era.

[C&CDean]

I think what Ole' Vet is saying - they've been killing each other over religious views in that region for 6000+ years. Shiite/Sunni, Muslim/Christian, Dweebies/Dickheads. Pick your era.

Well I just wish they'd go ahead and finish each other off so we could get that oil peacefully.

[Partial Qualifier]

Well I just wish they'd go ahead and finish each other off so we could get that oil peacefully.

you ain't a-kiddin' :D

[Okieflyer]

Are There Any Voices Of Reason?

Yes, but they will be quickly beheaded!:(

[JohnnyMack]

This is why W is such an a*shole for going in there in the first place. Thinking he could make one tiny speck of difference in these people's world.

[C&CDean]

This is why W is such an a*shole for going in there in the first place. Thinking he could make one tiny speck of difference in these people's world.

Stifle it JM. Your boy Clinton, and all the other donkeys voted to go there too. W may be an *******, but it ain't for going to Iraq.

[Okieflyer]

Stifle it JM. Your boy Clinton, and all the other donkeys voted to go there too. W may be an *******, but it ain't for going to Iraq.

Exactly! It's for playing the P.C. game instead of kickin' A**!

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Like Watching the Oedipus or Ajax?

Oedipus totally banged his mom. Totally.

[SoonerProphet]

Don't forget the potential for civil war in Lebanon. Yet, Sunni and Shia interests converge while thinking of Syria and Iran. Guess the world just ain't that simple.

[dolemitesooner]

It's like the South Oval, only with more sand and oil. :D
and thats just in your vagina:D

[WILBURJIM]

I think what Ole' Vet is saying - they've been killing each other over religious views in that region for 6000+ years. Shiite/Sunni, Muslim/Christian, Dweebies/Dickheads. Pick your era.
I know that is what he meant, but the fighting now is not born out of something that occurred 6000 years ago, or 2000 for that matter.
The hatred that is consuming the region now, where does it originate? Understanding where this hatred comes from is important: KNOW YOUR ENEMY.

[JohnnyMack]

Stifle it JM. Your boy Clinton, and all the other donkeys voted to go there too. W may be an *******, but it ain't for going to Iraq.

Clinton ain't my boy and I ain't a donkey.

Lemming.

[Vaevictis]

The hatred that is consuming the region now, where does it originate? Understanding where this hatred comes from is important: KNOW YOUR ENEMY.

It's just the ****ing culture. It doesn't even matter where any particular beef came from, because if it wasn't from there, it would be from somewhere else.

These people like to have feuds. That's it, end of story. Give em an excuse, and they'll feud/jihad for generations. Once we stuck our nose into the region, it was inevitable that they would start fueding against us too.

IMHO, act like we're getting out of their biz, set them at each other's throats, and laugh all the way to the bank as our agents pump the region for oil.

This is exactly what the British did in India, and it worked pretty damned well... up until the time the British did away the pretense of having their "agents" in charge.

[C&CDean]

Clinton ain't my boy and I ain't a donkey.

Lemming.

Oh. Then exactly WHAT would you call yourself? I mean besides "*******?"

[JohnnyMack]

Oh. Then exactly WHAT would you call yourself? I mean besides "*******?"

I'm a fence sitter. Registered Independent.

Voted for W once. Not the second time though. I'll admit my vote for Kerry was a vote against W.

I think his policy in Iraq is and always has been a fools errand.

[KABOOKIE]

It's pretty easy to poop on either side when you're a fence sitter. I hope the next time you stand on that fence to take a poop, you slip and rack yourself. JonnyRack!

[SoonerProphet]

Oh right, I forget in the South Oval, everything is simple and black and white. Couldn't have a debate or an issue where you feel you are being under-represented...that involves shades of gray.

[JohnnyMack]

It's pretty easy to poop on either side when you're a fence sitter. I hope the next time you stand on that fence to take a poop, you slip and rack yourself. JonnyRack!

Lemme guess, you're either with us, or you're against us. Right?

SP summed it up, there are no shades of gray around this place.

[OklahomaTuba]

It's pretty easy to poop on either side when you're a fence sitter. I hope the next time you stand on that fence to take a poop, you slip and rack yourself. JonnyRack!

Heh.

Its much easier to be right after the fact, than actually having the vision and spine to be right in the first place.

[FaninAma]

Oh right, I forget in the South Oval, everything is simple and black and white. Couldn't have a debate or an issue where you feel you are being under-represented...that involves shades of gray.

What are the gray areas? It's hard to discern gray areas or find the nuances in a situation in which a significant segment of a society seems to thrive on hate and vengeance.

If you and I don't like each other to the point that you feel like you need to kill me to settle the dispute I am not going to be too willing to listen to the reasons why you want to kill me. Now, if you made and abided by a promise to desist from actively seeking my extinction I might be a little bit more willing to listen to the complaints you have against me.

The lack of a gray area, IMO, is due to the perception that nothing will appease the violent, hate-filled segment of Middle-Eastern society.

And it's not suprising that now that the combatants are finally achieving some roles in the emerging governments in Iraq and Palestine that they cannot co-exist with other factions from their own society. They don't know how and probably don't even care to co-exist with those they have disagreements with. When the hate was directed toward the West they used religion and sovereignty(ie. Israel v. Plaestinians) as an excuse. Now that they're killing each other what will the excuse be?

And the cause for this state of continual anger and hostility is where we are expected to see the gray areas, I suppose?

[JohnnyMack]

Heh.

Its much easier to be right after the fact, than actually having the vision and spine to be right in the first place.

I've been saying this since the outset of this crusade and you know it. Don't give me any "after the fact" crap.

[JohnnyMack]

What are the gray areas? It's hard to discern gray areas or find the nuances in a situation in which a significant segment of a society seems to thrive on hate and vengeance.

If you and I don't like each other to the point that you feel like you need to kill me to settle the dispute I am not going to be too willing to listen to the reasons why you want to kill me. Now, if you made and abided by a promise to desist from actively seeking my extinction I might be a little bit more willing to listen to the complaints you have against me.

The lack of a gray area, IMO, is due to the perception that nothing will appease the violent, hate-filled segment of Middle-Eastern society.

And it's not suprising that now that the combatants are finally achieving some roles in the emerging governments in Iraq and Palestine that they cannot co-exist with other factions from their own society. They don't know how and probably don't even care to co-exist with those they have disagreements with. When the hate was directed toward the West they used religion and sovereignty(ie. Israel v. Plaestinians) as an excuse. Now that they're killing each other what will the excuse be?

And the cause for this state of continual anger and hostility is where we are expected to see the gray areas, I suppose?

Are you talking about the SO or the Middle East?

[FaninAma]

I think the "crusade" is almost over. I think the Crusaders are about to withdraw. What happens then?

Does the entire region incinerate itself in a massive civil war? Or does this society finally find some aspects of its humanity and learn to co-exist with themselves as well as other societies?

[FaninAma]

Are you talking about the SO or the Middle East?

I guess it depends on whether or not we've had any suicide bombings or mass kidnappings/murders carried out by members of the SO.

[C&CDean]

Meh. JM is the new LAS. Only the lower caloried, less toxic "lite" version.

What JM fails to understand is that we were going into Iraq irregardless of who was sitting in the White House. But GWB can't talk real good, so he just joined up with the group that finds meaningless **** to hate people about. Why? Cause he's an official fence-sitter; he can just sit back and say "I told you your guy was ****ed up." Riding the fence = being a political *****.

Maybe he'll get his wish and get the Hillary/osbama ticket voted in in 2008 - but being the official fence-sitter, he'll sit back and after they do something stupid, he'll be "well all along I said having a woman and a colored in office wasn't gonna work." Like I said, meh.

[Scott D]

I think the "crusade" is almost over. I think the Crusaders are about to withdraw. What happens then?

Does the entire region incinerate itself in a massive civil war? Or does this society finally find some aspects of its humanity and learn to co-exist with themselves as well as other societies?

I thought the line of thinking in the South Oval was 'who cares'. I mean if they go ahead and kill each other off, doesn't that mean free oil for us?

[JohnnyMack]

Meh. JM is the new LAS. Only the lower caloried, less toxic "lite" version.

What JM fails to understand is that we were going into Iraq irregardless of who was sitting in the White House. But GWB can't talk real good, so he just joined up with the group that finds meaningless **** to hate people about. Why? Cause he's an official fence-sitter; he can just sit back and say "I told you your guy was ****ed up." Riding the fence = being a political *****.

Maybe he'll get his wish and get the Hillary/osbama ticket voted in in 2008 - but being the official fence-sitter, he'll sit back and after they do something stupid, he'll be "well all along I said having a woman and a colored in office wasn't gonna work." Like I said, meh.

I don't agree with your assessment that we would have gone into Iraq regardless of who was in the WH. I think a more practical President would have leaned harder on Afghanistan/Pakistan after 09/11 and not gone headlong into Iraq thinking he could cake walk his way through it without ****ing the entire hate-filled region off. It was a failed effort at regional stability. Made necessary by our failures as a nation at developing our own sources of fuel. But go ahead and paint me as some kind of chicken**** traitor because I think the whole undertaking was a horrific idea.

I think there's a difference between being a political ***** and going off half cocked into a situation that was unwinnable at best, but with the Hawks that had W's ear it was inevitable that they'd try and ride into Babylon and bring their brand of western justice to the streets of Baghdad.

And when the **** did I say I wanted HRC/Obama in the White House? You hear what you want to hear and paint everyone with your broad strokes.

[C&CDean]

OK, JM, who do you want in the White House? Oh yeah, and why?

And this "more practical" president would have been........???

Yeah, like I said, it's EASY to be a fence jockey. Any chump can do it.

[OklahomaTuba]

I don't agree with your assessment that we would have gone into Iraq regardless of who was in the WH.

Just FYI, the last two donks who lost to W both advocated invading Iraq.

Kerry spent years saying we needed to invade and even voted for it (before he voted against funding it).

Clinton even signed a bill called the Iraq Liberation Act.

The Iraq War was coming, 9-11 just sped up the need for it IMO. And this war is simply a precursor to the larger conflict that is looming with Iran.

Why Bush just ignores Iran I have no idea, but its ****ing me big time.

[JohnnyMack]

OK, JM, who do you want in the White House? Oh yeah, and why?

And this "more practical" president would have been........???

Yeah, like I said, it's EASY to be a fence jockey. Any chump can do it.

I was hoping that either Mark Warner or Evan Bayh had decided to run. Accomplished Democrat Governors. I'm always a fan of voting for a Governor over a Senator as I feel they have a better pedigree in terms of being prepared to manage a country. Kinda like getting called up from the minors. And the reason I wanted a D was that I feel like the R's in power have had their run and I'd like to see what a D would do in terms of foreign policy.

As it is with our ****ty political "popularity contest" system we're going to end up choosing from McCain, Guiliani, HRC and Obama. I'd vote for Rudy G if that ends up happening.

[JohnnyMack]

Just FYI, the last two donks who lost to W both advocated invading Iraq.

Kerry spent years saying we needed to invade and even voted for it (before he voted against funding it).

Clinton even signed a bill called the Iraq Liberation Act.

The Iraq War was coming, 9-11 just sped up the need for it IMO. And this war is simply a precursor to the larger conflict that is looming with Iran.

Why Bush just ignores Iran I have no idea, but its ****ing me big time.

I still contend that the right thing to do was to press the issue with Afghanistan and Pakistan. That's my opinion anyway.

[OklahomaTuba]

Rudy is the only guy that can bring a hawk conservative like me and a social liberal like JM together. Something has to be said for that.

[C&CDean]

I was hoping that either Mark Warner or Evan Bayh had decided to run. Accomplished Democrat Governors. I'm always a fan of voting for a Governor over a Senator as I feel they have a better pedigree in terms of being prepared to manage a country. Kinda like getting called up from the minors. And the reason I wanted a D was that I feel like the R's in power have had their run and I'd like to see what a D would do in terms of foreign policy.

As it is with our ****ty political "popularity contest" system we're going to end up choosing from McCain, Guiliani, HRC and Obama. I'd vote for Rudy G if that ends up happening.

That's reasonable.

However, we can all Monday morning QB and say "I was hoping so & so would have been put in there..." That's the easy way out.

And I totally agree about our political system being nothing more than a popularity contest. But I have to completely blame the Ds for that. They own the media, and the media is what tells the ignurnt masses what to do, and then they do it. En masse. And beyond the whole popularity contest thing is the $$ it takes to run. When I watch the prez (whoever it may be) giving a speech I always think "I bet there's 50 people sitting in that room that would be a better president."

The only way your child is gonna become the POTUS is if you win the lottery.

[Mixer!]

I think the "crusade" is almost over. I think the Crusaders are about to withdraw. What happens then?

Does the entire region incinerate itself in a massive civil war? Or does this society finally find some aspects of its humanity and learn to co-exist with themselves as well as other societies?

It was discussed here (sorta). (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81515)


:pop:

[SoonerProphet]

What are the gray areas? It's hard to discern gray areas or find the nuances in a situation in which a significant segment of a society seems to thrive on hate and vengeance.

I just pointed out some gray areas. Syria and Iran, one an Arab country dominated by Sunni's, the other a Persian nation dominated by Shia. They have a convergence of interest in their support of Hezbollah in Lebanon. In the glory days of pan-Arabism many Arab nations rejected Nasserism and still reject it. Today the Sadrist segment of Iraq supports a national government and rejects Iranian meddling in the affairs of the Iraqi state...yet they are both Shia. You see it is not that simple of a picture to paint and far from accurate.

Significant segment? How do you arrive at that calculus.


The lack of a gray area, IMO, is due to the perception that nothing will appease the violent, hate-filled segment of Middle-Eastern society.

Well, let us just say I don't agree with that opinion. I think the shades of gray issue has been addressed. This is a part of the globe where borders have been designed by outside forces. That fact alone goes a long way in fostering violence and civil strife, but from within Middle-Eastern governments and without.


And it's not suprising that now that the combatants are finally achieving some roles in the emerging governments in Iraq and Palestine that they cannot co-exist with other factions from their own society. They don't know how and probably don't even care to co-exist with those they have disagreements with. When the hate was directed toward the West they used religion and sovereignty(ie. Israel v. Plaestinians) as an excuse. Now that they're killing each other what will the excuse be?

And the cause for this state of continual anger and hostility is where we are expected to see the gray areas, I suppose?

The excuse is that their are a lot of competing interests at stake and nobody is willing to give up those interests. This foolish attempt to remake the world in our image and import democracy has ripped the lid off. The only folks who can determine the course of events are the ones who have to live there when we finally get out, whether we are delaying that process or not is for a different thread, but we are past helping.

[OklahomaTuba]

I just pointed out some gray areas. Syria and Iran, one an Arab country dominated by Sunni's, the other a Persian nation dominated by Shia. They have a convergence of interest in their support of Hezbollah in Lebanon.
Actually, you are wrong.

While Syria is in fact a Sunni nation, The eye doctor turned evil dictator Assad and the ruling class are not Sunni. They belong to a sect of Shi'a called Alawi, or as my Iranian-American colleague here at work says, Turkish Shia.

[SoonerProphet]

Actually, you are wrong.

While Syria is in fact a Sunni nation, The eye doctor turned evil dictator Assad and the ruling class are not Sunni. They belong to a sect of Shi'a called Alawi, or as my Iranian-American colleague here at work says, Turkish Shia.

Yeah, so what. Assad is a Mormon amongst Christians, they are still 74% Sunni. WTF is your point again.

[OklahomaTuba]

Yeah, so what. Assad is a Mormon amongst Christians, they are still 74% Sunni. WTF is your point again.

Well, when you have one of your main points incorrect, it doesn't help the case with the others, you know? ;)

[OklahomaTuba]

BTW, wasn't Saddam in the minority in Iraq? I guess that didn't matter now, did it?

Probably another one of those "shades of gray" things.

[SoonerProphet]

Well, when you have one of your main points incorrect, it doesn't help the case with the others, you know? ;)

My point is this, they are an Arab nation dominated by Sunnis, they are incahoots with a Persian nation dominated by Shias. If the **** hits the fan, they will fall in line with the rest of their Sunni and Arab kin.

How, by the way is my point incorrect...are they not a Sunni nation?

[SoonerProphet]

BTW, wasn't Saddam in the minority in Iraq? I guess that didn't matter now, did it?

Probably another one of those "shades of gray" things.

Yep, and when he invaded Iran he had Arab Shia's fighting in HIS army. One of those shades of gray things, sometimes nationalism trumps religion.

[WILBURJIM]

My point is this, they are an Arab nation dominated by Sunnis, they are incahoots with a Persian nation dominated by Shias. If the **** hits the fan, they will fall in line with the rest of their Sunni and Arab kin.

How, by the way is my point incorrect...are they not a Sunni nation?
Syria is an Arab nation with a MAJORITY sunni population. They do not dominate as a political ruling power.

[SoonerProphet]

Syria is an Arab nation with a MAJORITY sunni population. They do not dominate as a political ruling power.

It would also be wrong to claim ths Sufis dominate ruling power as well, the Minister of Defense has long gone to a Sunni to prevent Allawism from creeping into the armed forces. Even today a Sunni is the MoD.

Just think it is to narrow of a view to condemn the violence in the region to a Shia-Sunni split. The region has many complex issues to deal with and will deal with them like so many before have, beating each other with sticks.