When will The Arkansas River Project...

[StoopTroup]

be finished? Will we be able to park there to go to the new Arena? :D

I can't wait to see millions poured onto the sandbar that is the Arkansas River.

Lookout San Antonio...we'll be getting a Sea World before you know it.

Wait...we have an Aquarium...we don't need a stupid Sea World...

What about a really tall Statue of Liberty type Observatory in the likeness of Will Rogers?

Oh the possibilities...

[Boomer.....]

Right after the I-44 widening project...

[sooner_born_1960]

What in the world are you talking about. The Arkansas River doesn't even pass near Oklahoma City.

[bri]

Don't forget our giant injun statue! :rolleyes:

[Jimminy Crimson]

Don't forget our giant injun statue! :rolleyes:

The best part about the statue is that you can take an elevator to the top of it, but not look outside. There are no openings, but you get to watch a video of what it looks like from up there from inside! :confused:

[BigRedJed]

What they aren't telling anybody is that it's not really an elevator. It's actually a little stationary room that looks like an elevator inside and has some equipment bolted on the outside that hums and vibrates as it "goes up." It never leaves the ground. They're gonna save LOTS of money that way.

[BigRedJed]

And seriously, if you want to know about the Tulsa Channels project, go here (http://www.tulsachannels.com/). I can't say if it's going to happen, but it is a cool project, in theory. It also has a lot of private-money horsepower behind it. That said, it will require LOTS of public investment, and T-town has a hard time passing these types of measures, IMO because of the fragmented, combative local government they have in place.

I hope they pull it off.

[bri]

Yeah, that was the point where I was like, "Okay...this is the most retarded idea I've ever heard." That record lasted until the day someone told me, "Hey, did you hear about the islands they're gonna build in the Arkansas?"

So, for those of you keeping score at home, my current top 5 most retarded ideas I've ever heard are:


1) The Islands
2) The American
3) Crystal Pepsi
4) Toby Keith
5) Putting the BoK Arena in the Brookside area

Honorable mention goes to "Threatening to cripple the board with your army of trolls unless you're reinstated/offering $1,000 for reinstatement", KFC Famous Bowls, and Oklahoma State University.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Not to mention floodin' out the west side of the river to make it happen.

And the additional low water dam ahead of Zink lake.

And the primarily residential zoning they're shootin' for which does shiite in generating sales tax revenue.

And the infrastructure load it'll place on the city. Who cuts in the roads? Who collects ad valorem? Exactly how much of it goes to the Creeks?

Insanity. When it takes a quarter of what they're talking about to establish the infrastructure for private development on riverside property so that business interest can actually generate sales tax revenue and get our beloved Mayor Taylor out of the financial hole she's dug for us.

The Channels. Pfffft.

[StoopTroup]

Can you buy a sandbar?

[OUinFLA]

Can you buy a sandbar?

Down here you can.
Bring LOTS of money.

[Mjcpr]

.......get our beloved Mayor Taylor out of the financial hole she's dug for us.

Whaaa??? :confused:

[OklahomaTuba]

And seriously, if you want to know about the Tulsa Channels project, go here (http://www.tulsachannels.com/). I can't say if it's going to happen, but it is a cool project, in theory. It also has a lot of private-money horsepower behind it. That said, it will require LOTS of public investment, and T-town has a hard time passing these types of measures, IMO because of the fragmented, combative local government they have in place.

I hope they pull it off.

Sorry, but its probably the worst idea in the world.

All the pretty pictures are nice, but you notice they don't show the rather large Sun Refinery that would practically be right next door.

Not sure who would spend money to live on a sandbar in a dirty ditch next door to a refinery.

If they wanted to spend a billion dollars one something, just give it to a big *** company to move here or start building a train system in the city connecting the burbs with Tulsa.

[bri]

Or how 'bout we just worry about Tulsa and let the 'burbs fend for themselves? I'm tired of having to worry about what some damn soccer mom in Bixby thinks about the efforts to make TULSA better and more vibrant.

[OklahomaTuba]

Or how 'bout we just worry about Tulsa and let the 'burbs fend for themselves? I'm tired of having to worry about what some damn soccer mom in Bixby thinks about the efforts to make TULSA better and more vibrant.

Well, since the people in Tulsa seem to be fleeing to the burbs in droves these days, it might be a good idea to worry about it.

Besides, 169 is a bitch in the morning.

[bri]

Well then, you shouldn't have moved to a different town. Or maybe you should get a job in Owasso, since it's such a growing, thriving community.

[OklahomaTuba]

Well then, you shouldn't have moved to a different town. Or maybe you should get a job in Owasso, since it's such a growing, thriving community.

I practically work in Owasso anyway. And yes, it is a growing, thriving community for a subarb in my opinion. Tulsa would kill to have the increases in a tax base and population rate that Owasso has seen of late.

Tulsa would also love to have the crime rate and quality of schools of Owasso as well.

But at least Tulsa will have The Channels!

[bri]

Yes, but to do all that, we'd have to be some podunk little **** town with a new Best Buy. No thanks.

[OklahomaTuba]

Yes, but to do all that, we'd have to be some podunk little **** town with a new Best Buy. No thanks.

When did Tulsa turn into lowered expectations state?

Its amazing that no one seems to cares about the little things like out of control crime, stagnating population, declining tax base, **** poor schools. As long as we're building 300 million dollar arenas within sight of the jail and homeless center and a billion dollars on some dumbass sandbar in the middle of a river thats got no water in it, no one can stop us!!!

I think Tulsa is suffering from too much aggot blood. Maybe T. Boone can save us if we rename the town after him and let Cathy Taylor pleasure him regularly.

[bri]

Who the hell said we don't care about what's wrong? And you SERIOUSLY have got to let the arena thing go; not only does it not matter one whit if it's six blocks from the jail, but you live in Owasso.

And I think the whole "stagnating population" thing is giving yourself WAY too much credit.

[BigRedJed]

Wow. Watching Tulsa people eat their own is MUCH more fun than a OKC vs. Tulsa thread.

[bri]

This isn't Tulsa people "eating their own". This is a Tulsan having to deal with a goddamn Owasso resident trying to tell him what to do with his town.

[BigRedJed]

Well, for the sake of conversation I'm referring to the Tulsa metro as "Tulsa." My point is that the Tulsa burbs are parasitic, cannibalizing and neutering T-town. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the outlying towns really couldn't give a flying **** about Tulsa's well-being, could they? Add to that the fragmented leadership over the past decade-plus in Tulsa proper... ...those people can't agree on what time lunch is. All things being equal, if Tulsa had enjoyed the type of (overall) quality leadership OKC has over the past decade and a half, Tulsa would be kicking OKC's *** in just about every significant category.

I'm sincere in saying I want to see Tulsa turn it around and thrive; for the state to compete, we need BOTH metro areas hitting on all cylinders.

[bri]

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

(Especially on the "parasitic" suburbs comment. :D)

[C&CDean]

You know why this thread is funny? Cause folks are carrying on like anybody GIVES A FLYING **** what happens in Tulsa. That's some funny **** right there boy.

[Mjcpr]

My point is that the Tulsa burbs are parasitic, cannibalizing and neutering T-town.

How are Tulsa's different than any other large city with suburbs? Or are they? Seriously....I don't know, it seem to me there would be similar results anywhere the suburbs experienced huge growth. But here it seems like the suburbs thrive at the expense of Tulsa.

[NormanPride]

How are Tulsa's different than any other large city with suburbs? Or are they? Seriously....I don't know, it seem to me there would be similar results anywhere the suburbs experienced huge growth. But here it seems like the suburbs thrive at the expense of Tulsa.

The biggest thing I've seen is that the suburbs don't think they're part of the same system. I lived in a suburb of San Antonio, but everyone there just ignored the suburb and paid attention to San Antonio goings-on. Nobody said they were from whatever small town surrounding the metro they lived in, everyone was from "San Antonio". It doesn't count if your city hall is a mile away from the line between you and the big city.

[King Crimson]

no mention of the Camelot hotel yet? try THAT one on for size Owasso.

[BigRedJed]

How are Tulsa's different than any other large city with suburbs? Or are they? Seriously....I don't know, it seem to me there would be similar results anywhere the suburbs experienced huge growth. But here it seems like the suburbs thrive at the expense of Tulsa.
Well, it might be that Oklahoma City is unusual in this respect, and that is what has created such a dynamic climate in the past 10 years in a city that traditionally WASN'T very dynamic. But in OKC, the 'burbs have generally cooperated with the city itself on plans like MAPS and MAPS for Kids. There also hasn't been much in the way of attempts to steal away economic development from the city. This has been thanks in part to efforts by the OKC Chamber, which is actually the GREATER Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce. They have not only worked on positive things inside the boundaries of OKC, but have, for instance, led efforts to save Tinker, which is located in Midwest City but employs thousands from all over the metro.

There have been A FEW attempts to grab projects that OKC was luring, such as MWC's attempt to steal Bass Pro away after Oklahoma City had put forth the effort to lure them, or Boren's attempt to get Dell to locate to Norman after the OKC Chamber and MAPS put us on Dell's radar and had all but negotiated the deal. Both of those companies tried to play the johnny-come-lately suburbs against OKC, but OKC wouldn't have any of it. Typically the Chamber has been very successful in shutting coup attempts like this down.

The suburbs were also suffering greatly when OKC passed MAPS in 1993. So when MAPS kickstarted the metro economy, and their own economies started warming up too, they recognized that a high tide floats all boats and that it was good for Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, etc. if OKC proper were thriving, and not a burned-out inner city surrounded by candyland 'burbs.

It really just boils down to leadership. OKC's leadership has had more horespower than outlying towns', so they had the luxury of cooperating when it served the interests of all parties, and yet the ability to put the 'burbs in their place if they had to.

[OklahomaTuba]

I usually just say I am from Tulsa, cause that's where I am from.

The reason I moved is I just got sick of the **** poor schools and crime, so I moved to a place that had good schools and next to no crime. The reason I moved to Owasso was the location to me and my wife's employer. Plus the people are great, its a very religious community and has a small town feel still to it. All huge benefits for this town that is growing very fast.

And yes, I do worry about Tulsa cause I own property there and I am from there and want to see the city do well, not decline as it has for lo these many years.

[BigRedJed]

The biggest thing I've seen is that the suburbs don't think they're part of the same system. I lived in a suburb of San Antonio, but everyone there just ignored the suburb and paid attention to San Antonio goings-on. Nobody said they were from whatever small town surrounding the metro they lived in, everyone was from "San Antonio". It doesn't count if your city hall is a mile away from the line between you and the big city.
And see, that's the difference, IMO. Everything I hear about Tulsa is that the suburbs see themselves as separate, and would cut Tulsa's throat to get a leg up. Factor in that Tulsa proper's elected leadership all hate each other and spend more time on infighting than fighting for Tulsa, and not much gets done. It's really a shame, because in many ways Tulsa will ALWAYS have more to work with than other cities in the region. They just haven't been putting it to work.

[JohnnyMack]

Hey suburb haters, wasn't Vision 2025 a COUNTY issue, not a city issue? The city couldn't get the arena funded, it took a COUNTY initiative.

I was born and raised in Tulsa and my wife and I (mistakenly) moved to Owasso a year and a half ago. Now we're looking to move back to Tulsa, so I hope the resident Tulsa snob can accept my take on this when I say that they city of Tulsa isn't about to get its **** together anytime soon. The lack of vision and leadership in this town is appalling. Tulsa has done a horrible job of keeping up with the Joneses. The arena alone ain't gonna cut it.

TULSA'S BACK!!!!!

Heh.

[OklahomaTuba]

Well, it might be that Oklahoma City is unusual in this respect, and that is what has created such a dynamic climate in the past 10 years in a city that traditionally WASN'T very dynamic. But in OKC, the 'burbs have generally cooperated with the city itself on plans like MAPS and MAPS for Kids. There also hasn't been much in the way of attempts to steal away economic development from the city. This has been thanks in part to efforts by the OKC Chamber, which is actually the GREATER Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce. They have not only worked on positive things inside the boundaries of OKC, but have, for instance, led efforts to save Tinker, which is located in Midwest City but employs thousands from all over the metro.

There have been A FEW attempts to grab projects that OKC was luring, such as MWC's attempt to steal Bass Pro away after Oklahoma City had put forth the effort to lure them, or Boren's attempt to get Dell to locate to Norman after the OKC Chamber and MAPS put us on Dell's radar and had all but negotiated the deal. Both of those companies tried to play the johnny-come-lately suburbs against OKC, but OKC wouldn't have any of it. Typically the Chamber has been very successful in shutting coup attempts like this down.

The suburbs were also suffering greatly when OKC passed MAPS in 1993. So when MAPS kickstarted the metro economy, and their own economies started warming up too, they recognized that a high tide floats all boats and that it was good for Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, etc. if OKC proper were thriving, and not a burned-out inner city surrounded by candyland 'burbs.

It really just boils down to leadership. OKC's leadership has had more horespower than outlying towns', so they had the luxury of cooperating when it served the interests of all parties, and yet the ability to put the 'burbs in their place if they had to.

Unfortunately, Tulsa has had NO leadership, has an extremely overbearing good ol' boy system made up of children of old oil money and current business owners (the southern hills set) and combative suburbs who believe Tulsa is the past and Jenks and BA are the future.

[OklahomaTuba]

I was born and raised in Tulsa and my wife and I (mistakenly) moved to Owasso a year and a half ago.

Well, Owasso and Bixby do sound a lot alike. Happens all the time I hear. :D

[JohnnyMack]

This isn't Tulsa people "eating their own". This is a Tulsan having to deal with a goddamn Owasso resident trying to tell him what to do with his town.

Where did you go to High School again?

[JohnnyMack]

Well, Owasso and Bixby do sound a lot alike. Happens all the time I hear. :D

Shoulda used Google maps.

[BigRedJed]

Vision 2025 WAS a county-wide issue, because Tulsa couldn't get its **** together and failed two previous initiatives modeled after MAPS. V2025 is full of too many compromises, it's too regional, not focused, and hard to measure. It's chock full of corporate welfare for companies that will turn their back on the city the first time the going gets tough. What if OKC had passed big economic incentives for GM instead of doing MAPS? I shudder to think of the outcome.

More capital improvements and more money spent on TULSA schools would have been a better investment. Other than the arena, there's really no "wow" factor. But they got what they got, which was FAR better than nothing.

[BigRedJed]

And, BTW, MAPS grew out of a failed attempt to lure a new United maintenance facilty to OKC. Voters passed it, but United went to Indianapolis instead of OKC, even though OKC's incentive package was better. The reason they chose Indy was because of quality of life concerns for their employees. They felt like OKC had none. That motivated then-Mayor Ron Norick and others to take a good hard look at making OKC a better place so that companies would come looking for us, instead of us bribing them to do business here.

Ironically, United closed the Indy facility that we competed for. Thank goodness they didn't choose OKC and tie up our sales tax dollars for years to come.

[Mjcpr]

I believe our current Mayor has Tulsa's best interests at heart and will make decisions based on what is best for the city. I hope she is successful in moving Tulsa forward.

[bri]

Where did you go to High School again?

That would really have some bearing if we were discussing Tulsa, circa 1991. But since we're talking about Tulsa NOW, and I am a Tulsan NOW...feel free try again, slappy.

[BigRedJed]

Hee hee. I always enjoy seeing someone call someone else "Slappy." It always makes me giggle, regardless the subject matter or the posters involved.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Hee hee. I always enjoy seeing someone call someone else "Slappy." It always makes me giggle, regardless the subject matter or the posters involved.

That is so true, slappy!

[bri]

Yeah, I'm forever indebted to Lil for that one. :D

[yermom]

i probably wouldn't want to claim Pryor either ;)

[royalfan5]

What kind of Annexation laws does Oklahoma have. Omaha has been able to annex suburbs unilateraly to keep from getting boxed in. In Nebraska, Cities (Lincoln and Omaha) can annex town under 10,000 when they want to. So Omaha grabs suburbs before they get to big or cut a deal.

[Frozen Sooner]

What kind of Annexation laws does Oklahoma have. Omaha has been able to annex suburbs unilateraly to keep from getting boxed in. In Nebraska, Cities (Lincoln and Omaha) can annex town under 10,000 when they want to. So Omaha grabs suburbs before they get to big or cut a deal.

That's freaking awesome.

What happens when the suburb doesn't want to be annexed? Do you send in the tanks?

Please tell me you send in the tanks.

[JohnnyMack]

That would really have some bearing if we were discussing Tulsa, circa 1991. But since we're talking about Tulsa NOW, and I am a Tulsan NOW...feel free try again, slappy.

Yes because I don't live in Tulsa NOW I have NO vested interest in what happens in that town. I was a midtown snob like yourself once. Then I grew up and had a family.

[royalfan5]

That's freaking awesome.

What happens when the suburb doesn't want to be annexed? Do you send in the tanks?

Please tell me you send in the tanks.
Usually they just mailing some kleenexs for the tears. When Omaha annexed Millard first thing they did was to paint over Millard on the watertower to show them what's up. There is a plethora of lawsuits over Omaha trying to take Elkhorn because Elkhorn tried to annex some developments to get above 10K when Omaha made their move, however it takes longer for Elkhorn to annex than it does Omaha, so Omaha will win easily since Elkhorn doesn't have any legal leg to stand on.

[Frozen Sooner]

Usually they just mailing some kleenexs for the tears. When Omaha annexed Millard first thing they did was to paint over Millard on the watertower to show them what's up. There is a plethora of lawsuits over Omaha trying to take Elkhorn because Elkhorn tried to annex some developments to get above 10K when Omaha made their move, however it takes longer for Elkhorn to annex than it does Omaha, so Omaha will win easily since Elkhorn doesn't have any legal leg to stand on.

You know what would really show them?

Find a statue to knock over. That usually gets the rabble good and fired up.

I may have to move to Nebraska just because this is the most awesome form of local government I've ever seen. ****ing Palmer and Wasilla wouldn't stand a chance.

[yermom]

JM, i never did hear why you didn't like Owasso...

[royalfan5]

You know what would really show them?

Find a statue to knock over. That usually gets the rabble good and fired up.

I may have to move to Nebraska just because this is the most awesome form of local government I've ever seen. ****ing Palmer and Wasilla wouldn't stand a chance.
Next time I go through Elkhorn I will check for a statue. The school district laws are fun too, Omaha's attempt to take some more land ended up with plan to resegregate the schools. Nebraska gov't is always entertaining.

[Frozen Sooner]

This discussion is making me happier than I've been in a long time.

As an aside: I live in a pretty darn good neighborhood. It isn't awesome, but it's solidly upper-middle-class. You see a lot of high-end cars driving through-Cayennes, E-Classes, ML-Classes, BMW 5 series.

I recently found out that there's a section of town in Anchorage that's so whitebread that they force bus kids from my neigborhood to that part of town just so they'll have some minorities going to school there.

[Frozen Sooner]

All I know is that I'm going to the next Anchorage Assembly meeting and demanding that we annex Palmer and Wasilla. All them bastards work in Anchorage anyhow, they should be at least contributing to the property tax base.

[royalfan5]

All I know is that I'm going to the next Anchorage Assembly meeting and demanding that we annex Palmer and Wasilla. All them bastards work in Anchorage anyhow, they should be at least contributing to the property tax base.
There you go. Get everyone in the same boat and make them start rowing.

[JohnnyMack]

JM, i never did hear why you didn't like Owasso...

Primary reason is proximity to work. Half an hour to work, half an hour home. I can't ever go home for lunch and see my brat, there's just not enough time. By the time I get home at night I get about an hour to an hour and a half to spend with him before he's lights out.

The other reason is that all the stuff we like to do is in Tulsa. The restaurants we like, the places we like to shop at etc. are all in Tulsa.

Owasso isn't a bad place to live, in fact it's a great place to raise a family, it just isn't the best fit for us.

[mrowl]

What kind of Annexation laws does Oklahoma have. Omaha has been able to annex suburbs unilateraly to keep from getting boxed in. In Nebraska, Cities (Lincoln and Omaha) can annex town under 10,000 when they want to. So Omaha grabs suburbs before they get to big or cut a deal.

so its directly opposite of Dallas. :D

I don't know what the texas laws are, but since Dallas sat on their hands and did nothing. Houston did do something.

[bri]

Yes because I don't live in Tulsa NOW I have NO vested interest in what happens in that town. I was a midtown snob like yourself once. Then I grew up and had a family.

That's right, there are NO families in Tulsa proper.

I wish I could completely turn off logic and reason just so I can be Cool Abrasive Contrarian Internet Dude and oppose everyone.

[JohnnyMack]

That's right, there are NO families in Tulsa proper.

I wish I could completely turn off logic and reason just so I can be Cool Abrasive Contrarian Internet Dude and oppose everyone.

No, I took issue with the fact that you called out Tuba:


This isn't Tulsa people "eating their own". This is a Tulsan having to deal with a goddamn Owasso resident trying to tell him what to do with his town.

Saying he didn't have a right to offer input on what happened in Tulsa. Tuba used to live in Tulsa and now lives in Owasso. Just like me. You were being indignant towards Tuba and you know it.

And for the record, Tuba's idea (arena in Brookside) is the goddamned dumbest idea I think I've ever heard.

[bri]

I'm indignant towards anyone who flees for a suburb, yet thinks they should maintain a say in the town they left behind. Kind of like how Tuba and his ilk always get their unders in a knot whenever some "liberal Hollyweird type" who is living out of the country gets quoted saying ANYTHING about 'Merica.

I appreciate that we have some serious issues to deal with here in Tulsa, and if certain people would rather say "**** it" and move, hey, great. The rest of us will stay here, stick it out, and try to turn this thing around.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm indignant towards anyone who flees for a suburb, yet thinks they should maintain a say in the town they left behind. Kind of like how Tuba and his ilk always get their unders in a knot whenever some "liberal Hollyweird type" who is living out of the country gets quoted saying ANYTHING about 'Merica.

I appreciate that we have some serious issues to deal with here in Tulsa, and if certain people would rather say "**** it" and move, hey, great. The rest of us will stay here, stick it out, and try to turn this thing around.

So since I was born in Tulsa, raised in Tulsa, went to High School Tulsa, moved back to Tulsa after I graduated from OU, still work in Tulsa, spend about 95% of my free time in Tulsa, but my head hits the pillow in Owasso and somehow I'm less worthy of a say in things than you? **** off.

[Frozen Sooner]

I have never lived in Tulsa. I did not go to high, elementary, middle, or pre school there. I fact, I think I've only been to Tulsa like five times in my entire life.

However, I think that what Tulsa should definitely do is mount gigantic turbines on itself and raise itself in the air, SHIELD Heli-carrier style.

That's get people's attention.

[Mongo]

Tuba and JM in the same city? The political apocolypse is upon us.

[JohnnyMack]

Tuba and JM in the same city? The political apocolypse is upon us.

The near proximity of our opposing magnetic poles keep the planet balanced.

[hurricane'bone]

J. Mack -

I think you put yourself into a fight that you don't belong, I think this is what Bri is talking about.




Coming out of Subway at lunch in Owasso towne, and I happened upon a Tulsa Police Vehicle.

It was a new Cadillac Escalade (with rims!)

WTF is that about? Was the Yukon just not luxurious enough for them?

I bet that car could pay for one extra cop a year, which might have been enough to save my neighbors little girl from being beaten, raped and murdered, then dumped in a dumpster.

If that's the way TPD is going to waste tax-payers money, than F'em I say. Glad I moved the hell outta that town. Cause obviously the driver of said escalade wasn't to worried about spending his hard earned money in Tulsey town.

(I have the picture on my cell phone. I will try to post later. )




Well, it was a pretty sweet ride, thats for sure.

Obviously fuel economy isn't a problem for our cash strapped city workers.

I do wonder how much they could sell said vehicle for though. Might be enough to train a new cadet? Who knows.

I am just glad they didn't go out and buy it when they just cut the next two police acadamies (even though crime in Tulsa is out of control now) and have to raise utilities an average of 30-50% to make up for money shortages.



Good.

In other news, the Tulsa Public School system has 38 schools that can't meet minimum state standards. What a joke!

And Bells Amusment Park and The Drillers will be leaving Tulsa and be moving to Jenks.

Oh, and the wonderful Arena still hasn't been started.


What Medlock wants to do is copy OKC's government system. This is what OKC does, and what my town of Owasso does, and it works and works well.
(post continues)
(Emphasis Added)

[OUTromBoNado]

Parasitic suburb resident proudly leeching on Tulsa, right here. Although, Glenpool is getting a Wal-Mart Supercenter in 2 years, so I don't have to go to 81st and Lewis anymore.

Anytime Glenpool wants attention, we set oil tanks on fire.






BTW, The Channels = stupidest. idea. evar.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Coming out of Subway at lunch in Owasso towne, and I happened upon a Tulsa Police Vehicle.

It was a new Cadillac Escalade (with rims!)

WTF is that about? Was the Yukon just not luxurious enough for them?

I bet that car could pay for one extra cop a year, which might have been enough to save my neighbors little girl from being beaten, raped and murdered, then dumped in a dumpster.

If that's the way TPD is going to waste tax-payers money, than F'em I say. Glad I moved the hell outta that town. Cause obviously the driver of said escalade wasn't to worried about spending his hard earned money in Tulsey town.

(I have the picture on my cell phone. I will try to post later. )

Just to clarify, that escalade, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is a vehicle commandeered in a drug seizure.

[Boomer.....]

Primary reason is proximity to work. Half an hour to work, half an hour home. I can't ever go home for lunch and see my brat, there's just not enough time. By the time I get home at night I get about an hour to an hour and a half to spend with him before he's lights out.

The other reason is that all the stuff we like to do is in Tulsa. The restaurants we like, the places we like to shop at etc. are all in Tulsa.

Owasso isn't a bad place to live, in fact it's a great place to raise a family, it just isn't the best fit for us.
We just moved to the Tulsa area after graduating and getting a job in south Tulsa. Everything that we looked at was way to expensive in Tulsa. We found a nice house in BA (129th & 81st) which is less than 5 miles from my work or anything else you could ever want to do or place you want to eat. It has a nice quiet feel without all of the Tulsa crime and bad school systems (in the Tulsa Union school district). It is a perfect location because we have everything that we want nearby, a short commute, and a safe part of town.

[yermom]

Just to clarify, that escalade, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is a vehicle commandeered in a drug seizure.

we've pretty much been over that ;)

that was a fun thread

[JohnnyMack]

J. Mack -

I think you put yourself into a fight that you don't belong, I think this is what Bri is talking about.


No the point is that Bri is acting like the self-appointed midtown snob. His attitude is that anyone who lives in a suburb of Tulsa sucks.

Tuba is acting like Tuba. He doesn't really know any better.

[bri]

No the point is that Bri is acting like the self-appointed midtown snob. His attitude is that anyone who lives in a suburb of Tulsa sucks.

Tuba is acting like Tuba. He doesn't really know any better.

No, I'm acting like someone who doesn't like it when someone leaves Tulsa and then continues carrying on as if we should listen to what he has to say. I actually WAS talking to Tuba. You just interjected yourself because that's what you do. You're a miserable, insufferable person who lives to start sh*t on this board, and I'm pretty sick of it. Also, I have a ban button, so that could be something to keep in mind next time you decide to lob so witty a bon mot as "**** off".

[yermom]

lots of people are affected by what happens in Tulsa without continuing to live there...

[JohnnyMack]

lots of people are affected by what happens in Tulsa without continuing to live there...

NO! YOU'RE WRONG! IF YOU DON'T LIVE IN TULSA, SHUT YOUR DAMN MOUTH!!!!!!!!!

FOLLOW ME! FOLLOW ME TO BROOKSIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!.........errrrrrr...... FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mjcpr]

:pop:

[bri]

NO! YOU'RE WRONG! IF YOU DON'T LIVE IN TULSA, SHUT YOUR DAMN MOUTH!!!!!!!!!

FOLLOW ME! FOLLOW ME TO BROOKSIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!.........errrrrrr...... FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I actually despise Brookside. But hey, keep trying. You may accidentially stumble upon a clue one day.

[OklahomaTuba]

Primary reason is proximity to work. Half an hour to work, half an hour home. I can't ever go home for lunch and see my brat, there's just not enough time. By the time I get home at night I get about an hour to an hour and a half to spend with him before he's lights out.

The other reason is that all the stuff we like to do is in Tulsa. The restaurants we like, the places we like to shop at etc. are all in Tulsa.

Owasso isn't a bad place to live, in fact it's a great place to raise a family, it just isn't the best fit for us.

Which neighborhood are you at? I moved to bailey ranch about 2 years ago. Thinking about upgrading over by Garth's house in Clear Brook though.

And I agree with you on the stuff in Tulsa, its a bitch to drive there to do anything, but I like being "away" from it all sometimes. And I only work 10 min away.

[OklahomaTuba]

Yeah, I actually despise Brookside. But hey, keep trying. You may accidentially stumble upon a clue one day.

Bri's an 11th street kinda guy. ;)

[Mjcpr]

Which neighborhood are you at? I moved to bailey ranch about 2 years ago. Thinking about upgrading over by Garth's house in Clear Brook though.

You better make damn sure your Yukon will fit in the garage.

:D

[OklahomaTuba]

You better make damn sure your Yukon will fit in the garage.

:D

Yeah, no kidding. They don't make those 3 car garages like they used too.

[yermom]

Which neighborhood are you at? I moved to bailey ranch about 2 years ago. Thinking about upgrading over by Garth's house in Clear Brook though.

And I agree with you on the stuff in Tulsa, its a bitch to drive there to do anything, but I like being "away" from it all sometimes. And I only work 10 min away.

we lived in El Rio Vista right there, being so close to 169 was nice

there were times with the highway situation that i could hit places in Tulsa from Owasso faster than other places in Tulsa :D

although, the work commute on 169 has to be a bee-atch, i was generally only driving to class or to goof off

[OklahomaTuba]

there were times with the highway situation that i could hit places in Tulsa from Owasso faster than other places in Tulsa :D

although, the work commute on 169 has to be a bee-atch, i was generally only driving to class or to goof off

Its gotten worse recently for some reason. I really hope 169 gets a few new lanes in the near future. It can be a parking lot at times at rush hour.

[OklahomaTuba]

we lived in El Rio Vista right there, being so close to 169 was nice

Thats cool. Its weird how everything is so new off 96th St N, and right there is some 70's era neighborhood.

[Mjcpr]

Its gotten worse recently for some reason. I really hope 169 gets a few new lanes in the near future. It can be a parking lot at times at rush hour.
If it does, Owasso should pay for it.

[OklahomaTuba]

If it does, Owasso should pay for it.

Does Tulsa pay for its highways?

A lot of the improvements need to be made in areas that Tulsa owns.

[yermom]

169 needs more lanes all the way to freaking Kansas

[Mjcpr]

Does Tulsa pay for its highways?

A lot of the improvements need to be made in areas that Tulsa owns.

Settle down, it was a joke.

[OklahomaTuba]

Settle down, it was a joke.

Well, I thought so, but I wasn't sure. I kept thinking of something like the BA expansion. I thought some local money went to that. Probably not.

Personally, I don't give a **** who pays for it, just needs to be done asap.

[OklahomaTuba]

Personally, I think those redneck bastard retards up in Collinsville should be footing the bill on this stuff. They are the reason Owasso has to have a sign on the way into town that says some **** like "unmuffled jackoffing is prohibited"

[Fugue]

Personally, I think those redneck bastard retards up in Coffeyville should be footing the bill on this stuff.

you mean cvs?

:pop:

[SoonerInKCMO]

169 needs more lanes all the way to freaking Kansas City

Fixed.

[yermom]

that's really what i meant :D

[BigRedJed]

Its gotten worse recently for some reason. I really hope 169 gets a few new lanes in the near future. It can be a parking lot at times at rush hour.
Good luck with that. It's now pretty well established that highway widening is HARDLY a panacea. It actually creates more congestion, not only during the construction (http://www.transact.org/report.asp?id=169), but also after the widening (http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/roadbuilding-futility.html), due to induced demand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand).

The solution to this is to create a livable community that has goods and services close to home, that has housing close to work, etc. This reduces road demand, and also has benefits such as reduced fuel consumption and time savings for citizens. Reducing windsheild time could literally save all of you suburbanites more than a week of your life each year. If your standard commute is 30 minutes one way, and you can change that to ten minutes, a year full of workdays would require 173 hours less commuting time, more than seven days' worth. This doesn't factor in the time saving you can achieve if the grocery store and the doctor's office, for instance, are around the corner instead of 10-15 miles away.

I know that I'm suddenly sounding like Al Gore here, but I can actually make a very strong fiscally conservative case for sprawl reduction, seeing as how suburban sprawl creates a lifestyle for which its participants don't bear the true costs. In other words, I have to subsidize someone else's lifestyle, while they don't pay their own way. The true cost of a mile on the roads, or a gallon of gas, is far more than drivers pay in car payments or gasoline tax. Most of the burden is bourne on the backs of everybody else in the paying of income taxes, sales taxes and other levys. We don't really understand the true costs of our "free" roads, and sprawl, because economically it's a huge shell game.

Now, do I blame people for not wanting to live in a suckass city? Not a bit. But I think everyone should be motivated to improve said suckass city rather than let it rot from the inside. Trust me, those shiny new communities in sprawlville will be tomorrow's crappy blightville, with murderous commutes and people bypassing them to move even further from the city's center. Fixing the city helps everybody.

[Boomer.....]

There will not be any widening on US 169. It is already 3-4 lanes in each direction. There are many other problems and roadways that will get fixed. The I-44 expansion will take quite a while.


Does Tulsa pay for its highways?

A lot of the improvements need to be made in areas that Tulsa owns.

Tulsa pays for their city roads. They also pay 20% of highway work. ODOT pays the other 80%.

[yermom]

well, Tuba said it was only 10 minutes for him ;)

it's not like you have to go to Tulsa for "goods" all the time if you live in the parasitic burbs

i see where you are going but it's not like you should be forced to pay double to live closer to where you work if you don't want to, or live in some ****ty neighborhood

what city is a good model for what you are thinking? and what do they do with the crackhouses?

[C&CDean]

5 ****ing pages on a thread about Tulsa that only like 3 people give a **** about? Two of the biggest liberals in the history of liberals fighting like a couple of high school chicks? ****ing hillbillies accusing each other of snobbery?

I ask you folks, could it get any better than this?

[yermom]

maybe if there was some felching

[BigRedJed]

well, Tuba said it was only 10 minutes for him ;)

it's not like you have to go to Tulsa for "goods" all the time if you live in the parasitic burbs

i see where you are going but it's not like you should be forced to pay double to live closer to where you work if you don't want to, or live in some ****ty neighborhood

what city is a good model for what you are thinking? and what do they do with the crackhouses?
No, people should be forced to pay double to live in the 'burbs. Houses are currently a great value in sprawlville, because the residents don't have to pay the true cost of the development. All the developer and homeowner pay for is for cheap land, typically farm land, and for the building of the house. They may also pay for the streets and sewer lines, etc., INSIDE THE DEVELOPMENT. The taxpayers then pay for new infrastructure that comes right to their new front door. Sewer, water, road widenings, traffic signals replacing stop signs, post offices, police stations and personnel, fire stations and personnel, libraries... ...I could go on and on. The cost for these items is borne by the entire community, not by the homeowner. The homeowner also burns more gasoline, which is heavily subsidized by the federal government in the form of, primarily, our Persian Gulf military presence. If you added to the price of gasoline the cost of our entire Arabic Peninsula (aircraft carriers, bases, personnel, etc.) military investment, which is solely there to guarantee a stable and cheap oil supply, I guarantee you that people would forget that they wanted to live in the suburbs at one point.

I live on the northern edge of downtown. When I take a dump, it flows down a sewer main that has probably been there 100 years+. It goes to a sewer treatment plant that has already been paid for. The streets are mostly the same as they were pre-WWII. Sure, you have to maintain and upgrade infrastructure in the center of the city, but you also eventually have to do that to any new additions to the city, too.

As a consumer, I create a very light footprint on the taxpayer's wallet. Probably as light as just about anyone in the community. Shouldn't I be rewarded for that? And by rewarded, I don't mean that I should get a discount on my housing, only that others should have to pay more of their fair share, and I should experience a corresponding tax abatement. Therefore, when some developer wants to build in the hinterlands, he should also have to help pay for the resultant road widenings, stoplight installations, increased police presence, increased garbage routes, etc. through appropriate fees. The cost would be passed to the home buyer. If people were paying the true cost of living in the suburbs, it might make more people consider investing in the core of their community instead.

The city can be whatever people want it to be. If they want to turn their back on it and let it fester into a bunch of crack houses, oh well. But there are plenty of cities that have reinvented themselves as vibrant urban centers where more and more people choose to live.

[Mongo]

maybe if there was some felching

post reported

[SoonerInKCMO]

Uh-oh. Jed's been reading his Kuntsler books again. ;)

[Mjcpr]

Jed's been reading his Kuntsler books again. ;)

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif

[SoonerInKCMO]

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif

Heh. Every time I see his name I'm like "are you sure that's how you spell that?"

[BigRedJed]

Uh-oh. Jed's been reading his Kuntsler books again. ;)
Yeah, Kunstler is good, as are Norquist, Hudnut, Jane Jacobs...

The problem is, I could type about this until my fingers bled and not change much. The things I'm talking about bring blank stares from both conservatives AND liberals. I sound like a whackjob to both sides. Car culture is too ingrained in the American psyche to change much right away. I think it just needs to be a "build it and they will come" mentality. Re-build cities right, from the inside-out, and eventually the 'burb dwellers will come downtown for a baseball game, or a concert, or dinner, and they'll look around and say "why the **** am I living in the 'burbs again?"

I posted quite a bit on this subject about a year ago in this (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46509) thread.

[yermom]

i'm still not quite following... so how is Tulsa paying for Owasso's sewers?

why not just have more actual jobs in the outlying areas where people actually want to live?

you know like if Dell was in Norman instead of some crappy part of OKC that no one wants to live in so they have to commute from somewhere (this is mostly speculation)

[BigRedJed]

Heh. Every time I see his name I'm like "are you sure that's how you spell that?"
And then you go "doh! That's right, it's K-U-N-S-T-L-E-R!"

[yermom]

Yeah, Kunstler is good, as are Norquist, Hudnut, Jane Jacobs...

The problem is, I could type about this until my fingers bled and not change much. The things I'm talking about bring blank stares from both conservatives AND liberals. I sound like a whackjob to both sides. Car culture is too ingrained in the American psyche to change much right away. I think it just needs to be a "build it and they will come" mentality. Re-build cities right, from the inside-out, and eventually the 'burb dwellers will come downtown for a baseball game, or a concert, or dinner, and they'll look around and say "why the **** am I living in the 'burbs again?"

I posted quite a bit on this subject about a year ago in this (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46509) thread.

btw, i'm not trying to be adversarial here, i mostly agree with you, i'm trying to get what you are saying straight in my head. you never did give me an example

i mean, i hate the idea of commuting, and will resist moving or changing jobs as long as i can due to my current personal situation on that...

[SoonerInKCMO]

And then you go "doh! That's right, it's K-U-N-S-T-L-E-R!"

Aww crap. I done gone even stupider than I was. :O

[C&CDean]

****ing city slickers. Meh.

[SoonerInKCMO]

Aww crap. I done gone even stupider than I was. :O

Especially stupid since I have three of his books on my shelves right now.

[bri]

5 ****ing pages on a thread about Tulsa that only like 3 people give a **** about? Two of the biggest liberals in the history of liberals fighting like a couple of high school chicks? ****ing hillbillies accusing each other of snobbery?

I ask you folks, could it get any better than this?

**** off dip****

:D

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Re-build cities right, from the inside-out, and eventually the 'burb dwellers will come downtown for a baseball game, or a concert, or dinner, and they'll look around and say "why the **** am I living in the 'burbs again?"

Then they'll remind themselves it's because they don't want to live in a city with one of the best EMS systems in the nation (top 5 in save rates and a planning model across the country) and fire protection that's a fire service standard in citizen coverage, response times, trained personnel and customer service. But THEN they'll remind themselves about the comparative cost of housing, the assfest of secondary education, the lack of available land in quantity, and an excessive sales tax rate.

Tough decision, I gotta admit. But I'd be doing myself a disservice to not remind you all about the mutual aid agreements the City of Tulsa has with her outlying communities, and how when the poop hits YOUR fan, if it hits ours too, you're just screwed. Staffing in Tulsa's suburbs is such a far cry from NFPA 1710 and any reasonably accepted response time (excluding Broken Arrow), I wouldn't light a fart outside of Tulsa, let alone want my place to set off.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Heh...a fireman just said 'light a fart'...

[StoopTroup]

I think I'm going to start a Jenks to the Arena / Gilcrease Museum / Fairgrounds / Cherokee Casino Monorail Thread next. :D

[bri]

I'll give it 10 posts before Tuba says that instead of wasting millions on light rail, they should just make 169 10 lanes in each direction from Owasso to his office and give him a pony. :D

[BigRedJed]

i'm still not quite following... so how is Tulsa paying for Owasso's sewers?

why not just have more actual jobs in the outlying areas where people actually want to live?

you know like if Dell was in Norman instead of some crappy part of OKC that no one wants to live in so they have to commute from somewhere (this is mostly speculation)
Well, Tulsa might not be. I don't know the particulars of that area. However, if it's typical, like OKC, Owasso is also drawing developement towards it, in the boundaries of Tulsa. Creating new development in the outlying areas in Tulsa would cause the same problems. Plus, I'm guessing Owasso is pretty much all suburban, so they are ultimately creating the same problems for themselves, long-term.

But the real problem you see in a lot of this type of suburban development is what you see here in OKC. People covet Edmond schools, for instance, but want OKC utilities. So there are entire areas in far north OKC where the Edmond school district overlaps OKC's boundaries. What that causes is this: the property taxes from expensive homes goes exclusively to the Edmond school district, which becomes awash in cash, while OKC sees no property tax benefit. At the same time, OKC taxpayers have to provide water, sewer, trash, police and fire protection to these homes. Pretty much the only income for OKC's general fund is sales tax. Guess what? The people in these homes do most of their shopping in Edmond, who gets the sales tax. So OKC residents are footing the bill for services they are not being reimbursed for, OKC schools fail to benefit from the homes that OKC services support, and people like me who live and shop in OKC have to pay their way.

As for the Dell thing, it really makes more sense to have it centrally located in the metro, as it is. Locating it in Norman would create a situation where, sure, those living in Norman would have a short commute, but the huge population bases of Edmond, Yukon, OKC, MWC, etc., would have increased commutes or have to move to Norman. Not to say Norman shouldn't (or hasn't) successfully implemented large employers like Hitachi, the Postal Center, York, etc.

But it was OKC's economic development and incentive efforts that brought Dell here. OKC threw extra incentives at them because they are now focused on developing the river, and they want to bring the relatively high-paying jobs to OKC, not outlying communities. Sure, the area around the Dell campus is sketchy today, but it is cornerstone for revitalization of that corridor. OKC could have pushed to locate it along Memorial or somewhere else, but wants to stabilize and improve the river. They GAVE them land valued in the tens of millions. Believe me, it wasn't by chance that it was located there.

[yermom]

why does Edmond's school district overlap OKC's boundaries?

it sounds like the problem is in the politics and lawmakers' area, not the consumers

i don't think that you can blame individuals for leaving one crappy situation for more favorable a more situation for themselves

[bri]

You can blame them when it makes the crappy situation crappier. :D

[Tulsa_Fireman]

why does Edmond's school district overlap OKC's boundaries?

Probably the same reason why Jenks school district occupies a large part of south Tulsa. The reason I've heard being that at the time, that was nothing but farm land and open territory, and the actual cost saving measure in regards to transportation was to let the rural districts simply have it. Fast forward 50 years, and blam. You got massive development, no foresight by Tulsa's earlier elected representatives, and a community in Jenks that is simply taking advantage of its lumbering, slow-moving neighbor in Tulsa.

However, with the explosion in growth, basic public safety services are suffering. It's all well and good for Jenks to cut in a multimillion dollar fire station in its new build, low instance district. But in 25 years when those districts are 25 years old and sprawl has ceased on a refocus to the urban center because of the simple inconvenience to the citizenry, without a concerted effort by the populace, you get a cutrate service, limited funds to even keep it, and a half-a$$ system that saves a lot of foundations and apologizes to a lot of widows.

[BigRedJed]

Well, there you go.

[JohnnyMack]

Probably the same reason why Jenks school district occupies a large part of south Tulsa. The reason I've heard being that at the time, that was nothing but farm land and open territory, and the actual cost saving measure in regards to transportation was to let the rural districts simply have it. Fast forward 50 years, and blam. You got massive development, no foresight by Tulsa's earlier elected representatives, and a community in Jenks that is simply taking advantage of its lumbering, slow-moving neighbor in Tulsa.

However, with the explosion in growth, basic public safety services are suffering. It's all well and good for Jenks to cut in a multimillion dollar fire station in its new build, low instance district. But in 25 years when those districts are 25 years old and sprawl has ceased on a refocus to the urban center because of the simple inconvenience to the citizenry, without a concerted effort by the populace, you get a cutrate service, limited funds to even keep it, and a half-a$$ system that saves a lot of foundations and apologizes to a lot of widows.

Well you certainly took that handoff and made a nice cutback.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

It's all about punchin' it in for six, my friend. ;)

[oklaclarinet]

why does Edmond's school district overlap OKC's boundaries?


It isn't just Edmond. Moore, Putnam City, Mid-Del, Mustang, Yukon, and pretty much any district surrounding OKC has a piece of OKC proper in it. Of course, OKC's official city limits are so large that it just about has to be that way. You even have districts like Western Heights for which there is no actual city. It is just another district within the city limits.

Now the good thing about OKC being so large is that a lot of the suburban area is still considered OKC. (On the other hand, Tulsa proper isn't anywhere near as large, so most of the surrounding suburbs are separate cities.) Of course, you do have the property tax issues, but a strong city infrastucture helps keep plenty of sales tax money for OKC. Let's take the Moore School District for example. The entire western half of that district is in OKC, so the property taxes in the quickly growing SW area of OKC help the Moore Schools. But that part of the city also has plenty of businesses for the residents of the area, so OKC still gets all the sales tax.

[JohnnyMack]

no foresight by ANY OF Tulsa's elected representatives, and a community in Jenks, BROKEN ARROW, BIXBY, OWASSO that is simply taking advantage of its lumbering, slow-moving neighbor in Tulsa.

Yup.