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olevetonahill
12/5/2006, 05:08 AM
this ole vets asz :mad:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/12/03/legion_chie
f_alters_line_on_war_service/?page=1

Legion chief alters line on war service

By Walter V. Robinson, Globe Correspondent | December 3, 2006

When Paul A. Morin , the national commander of the American Legion, sought
election to the office in August, he described himself in the lead sentence
of his campaign biography as a "Vietnam veteran of the US Army." Since he
was elected Aug. 31, the Legion's website has featured the same description.

And when Morin testified before the House Veterans' Affairs Committee Sept.
20, US Representative Steve Buyer , Republican of Indiana, introduced him as
an Army veteran of Vietnam. Morin registered no objection, according to the
hearing transcript.

And three months ago, Morin said he hopes that servicemen returning from
Iraq will be treated better than those who returned from Vietnam. "When we
came home, life was a little different. We do not want to see any veteran
ever returning to what we did, so we'll be there to be welcoming them home
with open arms," Morin said, according to a transcript of his interview with
the Pentagon Channel , the Defense Department's television network.

But the only place Morin ever returned from was Fort Dix, N.J. According to
his military records, Morin spent his entire two years of Army service, from
1972 to 1974, at that Army training base . In fact, before he sought the
coveted one-year term as national president of the country's largest
veterans' organization, Morin was content to be known as a "Vietnam-era"
veteran -- a signal to other veterans that he did not serve in Vietnam.

Morin, in a telephone interview on Thursday, defended his decision to
describe himself as a Vietnam veteran when he ran for Legion president.
Neither the US government nor the Legion itself makes a formal distinction
between veterans who served in Vietnam and those, like himself, who did not.

"I am a Vietnam veteran," Morin, a Massachusetts resident with a senior
state government position, declared. He said there is no need for his Legion
biography to make it clear that he did not serve in Vietnam.

The Legion's principal spokesman, Joe March , yesterday defended Morin's
right to the label. As far as the Legion is concerned, March said, any
current service member stationed in the United States could claim to be an
Iraq War veteran.

But Morin's description flouts long-standing and widely accepted protocol
among veterans -- that only those who served in the Vietnam theater between
1964 and 1975 should call themselves Vietnam veterans.

Even Morin's five immediate predecessors as national president made it clear
they had not served in Vietnam. Just 3.4 million men and women served in the
Vietnam theater, which included the Gulf of Tonkin, Laos, Cambodia, and
Thailand. Of those, 2.6 million served in South Vietnam. There are more than
5 million other veterans who served elsewhere during those years.

Veterans who know of Morin's claim to be a Vietnam veteran expressed
disbelief and dismay that someone so deeply embedded in the veterans'
culture would lay claim to Vietnam veteran status.

Former US Senator Max Cleland of Georgia, who lost both legs and an arm in
Vietnam, and who has been a Legion member since 1969, expressed concern in
an interview on Friday that by inflating his résumé, Morin has undercut the
credibility of veterans' groups as they seek congressional support for
underfunded veterans' programs.

"For the national commander of the American Legion, who never even served in
the Vietnam theater, to call himself a Vietnam veteran is a lie," Cleland
said.

Cleland, who headed the Veterans Administration during the Carter
administration, expressed incredulity at Morin's and March's justification
for the claim. "This is the American Legion hierarchy changing the rules in
the middle of the game, solely to try to cover the [expletive] of the
national commander now that he's become an embarrassment to the
organization," Cleland said.

Thomas G. Kelley , the Massachusetts Secretary of Veterans Affairs, who was
awarded the Medal of Honor for heroism in Vietnam, said that Morin is being
"disingenuous. When someone says he is a Vietnam veteran, it means he served
in the theater of the war. One would infer from his bio that he served in
Vietnam."

Jim Skiba , a Legion member from Holyoke who was wounded three times in
Vietnam, said he is so upset with Morin that he is considering abandoning
his membership. "For our national leader to be portraying himself as
something he is not is a disgrace," Skiba said in an interview.

Morin, who lives in Chicopee, is perhaps best known in Massachusetts for his
day job: He is the superintendent of the Soldier's Home in Holyoke , a
state-run facility for needy veterans that has 317 beds. He is on unpaid
leave from the position, for which he was paid $110,423 in 2005. The Legion,
for his one-year term, pays him a $100,000 stipend plus expenses.

The warrior mantle Morin has donned is new: When he was the ranking member
of the Legion's Massachusetts Department, the state website correctly
identified him as a Vietnam-era veteran who had been a supply technician and
lineman stationed in New Jersey.

But that changed this year with Morin's campaign brochure. Under the
headline, "The American Legion Department of Massachusetts Proudly Presents
Paul A. Morin for National Commander," it described him as a Vietnam veteran
in the first line.

The "Vietnam era" reference is no longer on the state website. The Legion's
national website put up a biography describing Morin as a "Vietnam veteran
of the U S Army." The lead paragraph on the Legion's news release
proclaimed: "A U S Army Vietnam veteran from Chicopee, Mass., has been
elected national commander of the nation's largest veterans ' organization."

March said he wrote the news release and the website biography with Morin's
approval. "I asked him, 'Is this fine with you?', and he said, 'Great,' "
March said.

In October, even the Massachusetts Legion publication, The Legionnaire,
identified Morin as a Vietnam veteran. The only reference to Morin's
stateside service has been a brief mention deep in a profile of him that
appeared in the Legion's monthly magazine the same month.

But the "Vietnam veteran" moniker has created an indelible imprint. As Morin
travels the country speaking to Legion groups, news accounts -- from
Indiana, Ohio, and New York -- regularly describe him as a Vietnam veteran.

His Vietnam status is also highlighted in notices of his upcoming
appearances. California's American Legion department is trumpeting Morin's
visit to Legion facilities there starting on Dec. 11 -- complete with the
Vietnam claim. The Legion's state convention in Ohio in January has Morin,
as Vietnam veteran, as its featured speaker.

According to Morin's military and Selective Service records, he was an
unlucky 18-year-old when the draft lottery was held in 1971. His birthdate
was number 36, making it virtually certain he would be conscripted. In June
1972, he was ordered to report for induction. He enlisted, for a two-year
period, the next month -- and spent the two years at Fort Dix. He was
awarded a marksman's badge and -- like everyone else who served honorably in
the military -- a National Defense Service Medal.

With the biography as backdrop, Morin's public statements can leave an
erroneous impression. Asked, for example, about his statement about how he
was treated when he came home, Morin said he believes that even servicemen
who returned home from New Jersey were shunned.

During an October visit to an American Legion post in Indiana, Morin said,
according to a newspaper report: "One thing we must never do, that was done
during my war, is to separate the warrior from the war."

Morin, who confirmed that he made the remark, said he did not intend it to
mean that he served in Vietnam. "By 'my war,' I meant the war that occurred
during the period of time I was in the military," he said.

And when We came Home the legion said we had not been in a war

SicEmBaylor
12/5/2006, 05:20 AM
I went to high school with this girl whose uncle was some sort of honcho in the American Legion. She'd always get the various American Legion awards that were given out to high school students including a scholarship.

Well, this one year a group of us, including her, went on a trip to France. Our group hooked up with this group from Nova Scotia once we were over there and she made friends with a couple of people from their group.

We went to Normandy but visiting the invasion site (Omaha and Gold) and the American cemetery at St. Laurent wasn't on the menu. I sort of insisted we go and managed to talk our tour guide into detouring that way. My great-uncle is buried at Omaha Beach and I am the only member of the family to visit his resting place.

Anyway, for whatever reason this really ****ed her off and she complained about it rather vocally. It got worse when we got to the cemetery and she made a statement along the lines of, "I don't want to spend my time in France at some damned cemetery." Well, the day went on and eventually we were on the bus and back on our normal schedule when the day's events led to a discussion on Vietnam among her and her Canadian Friends. I don't remember everything she said but she said something along the lines of "I think it's disgusting what our troops did to the Vietnamese people."

Anyway, this was a girl who was continually honored by the American Legion. I wouldn't have given her a god damned thing but that's just me.

olevetonahill
12/5/2006, 05:32 AM
Spek to ya sicem
I have family buried in Flanders

frankensooner
12/5/2006, 10:20 AM
My pops served in the CBI theater in WWII. He never joined any group except for the CBI veterans group. They had a meeting several years back out in Cali. I don't think there are many of them left.

tbl
12/5/2006, 10:26 AM
I would have buried her there if it wouldn't have been dishonoring to the valiant men that died there... :mad:

fadada1
12/5/2006, 11:09 AM
I have not been in an American Legion since 1973. The Junction City, Kansas legion hall refused to serve a fellow squad leader of mine because of his skin color.
good for you, jaux.

my dad was a communications officer in the air force from 67-71 (did not have to go to the jungle). anyway, one of the non-coms was unwilling to share his tent with a black airman. basically, my dad told him he had 2 choices. sleep in the same tent, or start walking back to tinker from ponca city.

there simply is no skin color in wartime (or any other time for that matter).

1stTimeCaller
12/5/2006, 11:12 AM
being in the AF he was probably just ****ed that he had to sleep in a tent. :D

fadada1
12/5/2006, 11:13 AM
being in the AF he was probably just ****ed that he had to sleep in a tent. :D
good point:D

KABOOKIE
12/5/2006, 11:23 AM
Anyone remember that Admiral of the Navy that shot himself because the media found out he really didn't have a Combat Accomadation?


Navy's top officer dies of gunshot,
apparently self-inflicted
Letter left behind offers clues

May 16, 1996
Web posted at: 10:10 p.m. EDT

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The nation's top Navy officer, Adm. Jeremy Michael Boorda, died Thursday from an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound hours after learning Newsweek magazine was raising questions about the legitimacy of some of his combat medals.

CNN has learned from Pentagon sources that Boorda wrote two letters before he died, one to his family and one addressed to sailors.

Sources said that in the typewritten note to the sailors, Boorda explained that he took his life because of the questions raised about his wearing of "V" for valor medals on his combat ribbon from Vietnam.

Navy officials had not yet decided whether to release the letters.

A U.S. Navy official who met with Boorda in the hours preceding his death said Boorda was "obviously concerned" about a scheduled meeting Thursday with two Newsweek reporters pursuing the story.

The 57-year-old chief of naval operations was rushed to D.C. General Hospital after he was found outside his quarters at the Washington Navy Yard, the Navy said. An emergency room physician said Boorda arrived with a gunshot wound to the chest. Five minutes later, at 2:30 p.m. EDT, he was pronounced dead.

According to Newsweek editor Maynard Parker, the news magazine was working on a story that called into question two medals Boorda received during the Vietnam war.

According to Navy sources, the magazine claimed to have uncovered evidence that Boorda had for more than 20 years inappropriately displayed "V" for valor on the medals.

According to a source who has seen Boorda's note to the sailors, Boorda wrote that he wore the Vs because he thought he rated them.

Boorda told the sailors how much he thought of them, and said that some people will not think he did the right thing, the source said. He ended the letter with a reference to "critics in the media" who have been "hard on the Navy," saying "I have given you more to write about," the source said.

The "V" for valor on such awards is reserved for acts "involving direct participation in combat operations," according to military code. The Navy released documents late Thursday which indicate that Boorda was not authorized to wear a combat "V" decoration.

Rear Adm. Kendell Pease, who was with Boorda a little over an hour before the shooting, said that when he told Boorda, at about 12:30 p.m., what the subject of the interview was, the admiral abruptly announced he was going home for lunch instead of eating the meal that had been brought to his office.

"Admiral Boorda was obviously concerned," said Pease, the Navy's top public affairs officer.

He said that Boorda had asked him how they should handle the Newsweek questions, then without waiting for a reply had answered his own question: "We'll just tell him the truth."


The Navy would not say if Boorda's wound was self-inflicted, and Navy Secretary John Dalton said Washington, D.C., police were investigating Boorda's death.

Earlier, a Pentagon source told CNN that Boorda's death was "definitely a suicide."

According to sources familiar with the investigation, a .38 caliber pistol was used in the shooting. The gun belonged to his son-in-law, sources said.

President Clinton expressed his grief at Boorda's sudden and violent death. Opening a briefing to announce a new U.S. policy on land mines, the president asked for a moment of silence in honor of Boorda. He bowed his head, prayed silently, then whispered, "Amen."

Earlier, during a discussion with business leaders, Clinton, who appointed Boorda to his position in 1994, was handed a note from an aide informing him of the shooting. After reading the note, the president's shoulders slumped and he grimaced. (800K QuickTime movie)

He continued the discussion for 20 minutes, without mentioning Boorda. On returning to the White House, he headed for an Oval Office meeting with several somber aides.

Dalton praised Boorda as "a sailor's sailor," and after a pause said, "He will be missed." (196K AIFF sound or 196K WAV sound)

The Navy secretary said he met with Boorda on Wednesday and found him in "great spirits."

Boorda, whose name was Jeremy, preferred to be called Mike.

Born in South Bend, Indiana, Boorda was married to Bettie May Moran and had four children. He received a bachelor's degree in political science from the University of Rhode Island in 1971 and postgraduate degrees from the Naval War College in 1971 and 1983.


He was commissioned as an ensign in the U.S. Navy in 1962 and advanced through the ranks to admiral in 1984. A top NATO commander, Boorda was in charge of American naval forces in Europe and commander in chief of allied forces in southern Europe before being chosen for the Navy's top job.

CNN Correspondent Jamie McIntyre contributed to this report

C&CDean
12/5/2006, 02:40 PM
I still get recruiting stuff from the Legion in the mail. My ex-FIL was the post commander of a legion hall in Tucson back when I lived there. He was always pimping the legion to me, but I would'nt go or join because I didn't/don't consider myself a combat veteran. Yes, I'm a "Vietnam era vet" like this guy, but my unit was already back when I joined them. All their recruitment stuff says that's OK, but it ain't OK with me.

Harry Beanbag
12/5/2006, 04:39 PM
I still get recruiting stuff from the Legion in the mail. My ex-FIL was the post commander of a legion hall in Tucson back when I lived there. He was always pimping the legion to me, but I would'nt go or join because I didn't/don't consider myself a combat veteran. Yes, I'm a "Vietnam era vet" like this guy, but my unit was already back when I joined them. All their recruitment stuff says that's OK, but it ain't OK with me.


Same with me. I served in the Navy for 6 years in the '90s, four of which was onboard a combat ship where we trained to go to war every day, but I don't consider myself a veteran because nobody tried to kill me and I never had to kill anybody else.

I'm proud as hell to have served even though it was miserable, but what I endured doesn't even begin to compare to what guys like my grandfather did in Europe during WWII. I refuse to get a veterans license plate for the same reasons.

olevetonahill
12/5/2006, 04:44 PM
IF you put on this Nations Uniform and were serving honorably , and ready to go to war . , which if you were serving honorably you would have been ready .
You have My spek . Just cause circumstances kept you out of harms way does NOT belittle your service . You ARE a Veteran , and should be proud of that fact .
Hats Off to all who served

Frozen Sooner
12/5/2006, 05:09 PM
From the standpoint of this Joe Civilian, I respect anyone who entered military with the full expectation that they could be called on to fight a war at any time. The act of courage I'm honoring is the enlistment itself. There's other awards for people who get in the way of bullets and stuff.

jk the sooner fan
12/5/2006, 05:13 PM
I still get recruiting stuff from the Legion in the mail. My ex-FIL was the post commander of a legion hall in Tucson back when I lived there. He was always pimping the legion to me, but I would'nt go or join because I didn't/don't consider myself a combat veteran. Yes, I'm a "Vietnam era vet" like this guy, but my unit was already back when I joined them. All their recruitment stuff says that's OK, but it ain't OK with me.

yeah i got the same stuff and feel the same way, but i joined just to give them the money.....i dont attend meetings or belong to a particular lodge....its more of a donation

i AM a life member of the DAV however

usmc-sooner
12/5/2006, 07:07 PM
hopefully this doesn't **** anyone off but most of the guys hanging out at the VFW and American Legion are ugh how shall I say this nicely --alcoholics and their war stories get better the more they drink.

I consider all the guys who served in that era as vets, not everyone is required to go abroad but their jobs are to support and back the war effort and it takes both the ones who leave and the ones who stay to win. I have a great respect for those who served but didn't go. I had a good friend in an admin unit, and the hours this guy put in were unreal. Plus you got to think about the people in logistics, supply, intel, finance, mps, mechanics, DI's, SOI instructors. They all work together for one goal.

olevetonahill
12/5/2006, 07:38 PM
What USMC said
Also the Only Org Im a member of is the DAV pd up life member

Rogue
12/5/2006, 07:51 PM
I was an officer at our local VFW in Texas. The VFW, the American Ex-Prisoners of War, and the Military Order of the Purple Heart are the only groups I know of that insist on combat service for membership. Actually AXPOW has spouses and family members as full-fledged members, the only veterans group I know of that does this. Anyhow, back to the VFW...things got bad when the guys tried to start a bar at the post. It didn't work out, I think, for the better of the group.

Here in TN I pretty much do what was described above, give 'em some money each year. Since I work at the VA I send lots of guys to the DAV and state dept of veteran's affairs to file claims for things they don't know they can get, help with home loans, etc..

Even Rolling Thunder, which doesn't require veteran status for membership, is good here. Most of these organizations occasionally have some petty bickering as with any group but these folks genuinely go out of their way for their comrades and I can't say enough about the good that they do - usually quietly and behind the scenes but sometimes vocally and in front of congress, for veterans and families of veterans.

To me the biggest tragedy of the article about the "wanna-be" guy heading the Legion and the response to it is that it sort of confirms my fear that these organizations aren't going to be around to advocate for veterans issues. The greatest generation was instrumental in getting the benefits that veterans have today. They were vocal, respected, organized, and dedicated. I don't see as much of that today with the exception of the loud younger veterans with "entitlement-itis" that do as much or more harm than good for the image of the veterans service organizations.

Not to overgeneralize, but the Korean vets got used to the role of being "forgotten." The Vietnam vets got mad and found their own way (gubmint be damned), and the younger vets just aren't as politically active. Some of the 'Nam vets are coming back to make sure things are better than they were then but many still hold a grudge against the VFW and similar organizations for previous transgressions.

When was the last time you saw a "Veterans Vote" bumper sticker or the majority of congress with honorable discharges?

This is what I've been riled-up about for a couple days:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6576505

The military has come a long way, but still has some work to do:



All Things Considered, December 4, 2006 · Army studies show that at least 20 percent to 25 percent of the soldiers who have served in Iraq display symptoms of serious mental-health problems, including depression, substance abuse and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Administration officials say there are extensive programs to heal soldiers both at home and in Iraq.

But an NPR investigation at Colorado's Ft. Carson has found that even those who feel desperate can have trouble getting the help they need. In fact, evidence suggests that officers at Ft. Carson punish soldiers who need help, and even kick them out of the Army.

Soldier Tyler Jennings says that when he came home from Iraq last year, he felt so depressed and desperate that he decided to kill himself. Late one night in the middle of May, his wife was out of town, and he felt more scared than he'd felt in gunfights in Iraq. Jennings says he opened the window, tied a noose around his neck and started drinking vodka, "trying to get drunk enough to either slip or just make that decision."

Five months before, Jennings had gone to the medical center at Ft. Carson, where a staff member typed up his symptoms: "Crying spells... hopelessness... helplessness... worthlessness." Jennings says that when the sergeants who ran his platoon found out he was having a breakdown and taking drugs, they started to haze him. He decided to attempt suicide when they said that they would eject him from the Army.

"You know, there were many times I've told my wife -- in just a state of panic, and just being so upset -- that I really wished I just died over there [in Iraq]," he said. "Cause if you just die over there, everyone writes you off as a hero."

Services Out of Reach for Soldiers

Jennings isn't alone. Other soldiers who've returned to Ft. Carson from Iraq say they feel betrayed by the way officials have treated them. Army files show that these were soldiers in good standing before they went to Iraq, and that they started spinning out of control upon their return.

Since the war in Vietnam, military leaders have said that soldiers who are wounded emotionally need help, just like soldiers missing limbs.

"The goal, first and foremost, is to identify who's having a problem," says William Winkenwerder, assistant secretary of defense for health affairs. "Secondly, it's to provide immediate support. And finally, our goal is to restore good mental health."

The Army boasts of having great programs to care for soldiers. The Pentagon has sent therapists to Iraq to work with soldiers in the field. And at Army bases in the United States, mental-health units offer individual and group therapy, and counseling for substance abuse. But soldiers say that in practice, the mental-health programs at Ft. Carson don’t work the way they should.

For instance, soldiers fill out questionnaires when they return from Iraq that are supposed to warn officials if they might be getting depressed, or suffering from PTSD, or abusing alcohol or drugs. But many soldiers at Ft. Carson say that even though they acknowledged on the questionnaires that they were having disturbing symptoms, nobody at the base followed up to make sure they got appropriate support. A study by the investigative arm of Congress, the Government Accountability Office, suggests it's a national problem: GAO found that about 80 percent of the soldiers who showed potential signs of PTSD were not referred for mental health follow-ups. The Pentagon disagrees with the GAO's findings.

Soldiers at Ft. Carson also say that even when they request support, the mental-health unit is so overwhelmed that they can't get the help they need. Corey Davis, who was a machine gunner in Iraq, says he began "freaking out" after he came back to Ft. Carson; he had constant nightmares and began using drugs. He says he finally got up the courage to go to the Army hospital to beg for help.

"They said I had to wait a month and a half before I'd be seen," Davis said. "I almost started crying right there."

Intimidated by Superiors

Almost all of the soldiers said that their worst problem is that their supervisors and friends turned them into pariahs when they learned that they were having an emotional crisis. Supervisors said it's true: They are giving some soldiers with problems a hard time, because they don't belong in the Army.

Jennings called a supervisor at Ft. Carson to say that he had almost killed himself, so he was going to skip formation to check into a psychiatric ward. The Defense Department's clinical guidelines say that when a soldier has been planning suicide, one of the main ways to help is to put him in the hospital. Instead, officers sent a team of soldiers to his house to put him in jail, saying that Jennings was AWOL for missing work.

"I had them pounding on my door out there. They're saying 'Jennings, you're AWOL. The police are going to come get you. You've got 10 seconds to open up this door,'" Jennings said. "I was really scared about it. But finally, I opened the door up for them, and I was like 'I'm going to the hospital.'"

A supervisor in Jennings' platoon corroborated Jennings' account of the incident.

Disciplined, Then Purged from the Ranks

Evidence suggests that officials are kicking soldiers with PTSD out of the Army in a manner that masks the problem.

Richard Travis, formerly the Army's senior prosecutor at Ft. Carson, is now in private practice. He says that the Army has to pay special mental-health benefits to soldiers discharged due to PTSD. But soldiers discharged for breaking the rules receive fewer or even no benefits, he says.

Alex Orum's medical records showed that he had PTSD, but his officers expelled him from the Army earlier this year for "patterns of misconduct," repeatedly citing him on disciplinary grounds. In Orum's case, he was cited for such infractions as showing up late to formation, coming to work unwashed, mishandling his personal finances and lying to supervisors -- behaviors which psychiatrists say are consistent with PTSD.

Sergeant Nathan Towsley told NPR, "When I'm dealing with Alex Orum's personal problems on a daily basis, I don't have time to train soldiers to fight in Iraq. I have to get rid of him, because he is a detriment to the rest of the soldiers."

Doctors diagnosed another soldier named Jason Harvey with PTSD. At the end of May this year, Harvey slashed his wrists in a cry for help. Officials also kicked Harvey out a few months ago for "patterns of misconduct."

A therapist diagnosed Tyler Jennings with PTSD in May, but the Army's records show he is being tossed out because he used drugs and missed formations. Files on other soldiers suggest the same pattern: Those who seek mental-health help are repeatedly cited for misconduct, then purged from the ranks.

Most of these soldiers are leaving the Army with less than an "honorable discharge" -- which an Army document warns "can result in substantial prejudice in your civilian life." In other words, the Army is pushing them out in disgrace.

Anne Hawke produced this report for broadcast.

Rogue
12/5/2006, 08:03 PM
Oh yeah, one more thing...
If you raised your right hand, took the oath, and did your duty, you are a veteran. If you had the good fortune to serve during peacetime or in a location that was "friendly" or if you were drafted into combat or sent to trade shots fired in anger...thank you for your service.

olevetonahill
12/5/2006, 08:47 PM
Oh yeah, one more thing...
If you raised your right hand, took the oath, and did your duty, you are a veteran. If you had the good fortune to serve during peacetime or in a location that was "friendly" or if you were drafted into combat or sent to trade shots fired in anger...thank you for your service.

Amen Bro
Thanks for your service to Vets
My son has a double wammy , being raised by Me :( , then having to go into Bosnia , and the Iraq invasion .
Yet he wont seek help , go figure