How is Tulsa's stadium a "neutral site" for the Jenks/Enid game?

[achiro]

I mean really?:rolleyes:

[OSUAggie]

If the game were in Stillwater, people would say that that would not be a neutral site.

[Paperclip]

Maybe the construction prevents them from playing in Stillwater which is maybe what, 20 miles closer to Enid than Jenks?

[Mjcpr]

Aren't the sites determined well ahead of time? Or not?

[Sooner_Bob]

If the game were in Stillwater, people would say that that would not be a neutral site.


Why would you think that?

I was actually going to this game if it was played here . . . not now.

[achiro]

Maybe the construction prevents them from playing in Stillwater which is maybe what, 20 miles closer to Enid than Jenks?
At least both teams would have to "travel" for that one. Hell, I hear Jenks' RB is gonna ride his bicycle to the game.

[Sooner_Bob]

Aren't the sites determined well ahead of time? Or not?


I don't think so . . . too many "Site TBD" on the schedule.

[achiro]

Aren't the sites determined well ahead of time? Or not?
Our local newspaper on Sunday said games "neutral site to be determined by yada yada yada"

[Paperclip]

Aren't the sites determined well ahead of time? Or not?

No, the sites are determined somewhat weekly depending on who's playing.

[OSUAggie]

Stillwater is perceived to be much closer to Enid than south Tulsa, even though it's somewhere around a 20 mile difference, as Paperclip noted. I wasn't saying that Stillwater wouldn't be a neutral site, but that a lot of people would say that it wasn't neutral. I think the game should be played in SWO, but I don't the reasoning that it's not played there.

[cb4ou]

In 1983 we had to play Tulsa Washington at Union stadium.

[Paperclip]

Since we're talking high school, Southlake Carroll and Trinity drew over 46k to Texas Stadium last week for a quarterfinal game. SLC and Odessa Permian play this Saturday at Texas Tech. That could be a full house.

[Widescreen]

If the game were in Stillwater, people would say that that would not be a neutral site.
It can't be in Stillwater. What with all the open holes in the ground and the kids potentially stepping all over that tradition that oozes from Lewis field.

[Mjcpr]

OKAY, OKAY!!!! :D

That's weird, I figured they knew where they'd be played before the year even started since they always seem to be at OSU or OU. I don't remember them ever being in Tulsa but I probably didn't pay a lot of attention to it.

[OSUAggie]

Good to hear Permian's back to winning again.

[tulsaOUfan]

it's just as nuetral as the Sugar is for LSU or the Rose is for USC or Orange for Miami

[Paperclip]

I defer to those who know, but the video board and scoreboard were temporary for game days in Stillwater. I suspect those wouldn't be available for a high school playoff game and BPS isn't an option this week.

[Echoes]

No.. this is how it goes..

There is a rule in the OSSAA handbook or whatever it is that the site be neutral, and on east side of the state in even years, and neutral and west in odd years or some crap like that. I have looked it up before, but I can't seem to find it again. I am pretty sure thats how it is anyways..

I think its crap to, I am from Enid but live here in the city now... I will be making the drive once again to the Tulsa area for the game... Good luck Plainsmen!

[OSUAggie]

They're probably wanting to get to work on the WEZ project rather than holding off another week, even though weather won't really permit a whole lot of work getting done in the latter portions of this week.

[royalfan5]

Hmm, In Nebraska playoff games are played on home fields except for the finals in Memorial Stadium. Is having a neutral site that really a big of deal.

[Fraggle145]

All I know is that Austin Box must be the real deal... Enid wasnt that great with him hurt, and now they are blowing people out... including my Owasso Rams. Glad he is coming to OU.

[Sooner_Bob]

Hmm, In Nebraska playoff games are played on home fields except for the finals in Memorial Stadium. Is having a neutral site that really a big of deal.


This is the Class 6A final . . .

[royalfan5]

This is the Class 6A final . . .
Why not just have a permanent site then? It probably wouldn't be a bad recruiting tool to let them play it in Norman every year.

[OSUAggie]

Used to have a permanent site.... Then the west side of the state quit participating in 6A state championships so Tulsa schools got tired of driving to Stillwater to play one another every year. Now it's not a permanent site.

[bluedogok]

In 1983 we had to play Tulsa Washington at Union stadium.
The 1981 class 4A (then the largest) final was PC West against Tulsa McLain at Tulsa Memorial (IIRC maybe 85sooner can confirm) so we had to travel. We also had more fans in the stands than McLain did. I can't remember if the 80 or 82 games were at Taft Stadium but I know there were some championship games held there in the years prior like the PC-PC West final.

[royalfan5]

Used to have a permanent site.... Then the west side of the state quit participating in 6A state championships so Tulsa schools got tired of driving to Stillwater to play one another every year. Now it's not a permanent site.
Quit participating as in all the western team are terrible, or quit participating as in you only have a partial state championship?

[MikeInNorman]

My daughter's Norman High girls' basketball team had to play in the state tournament ( with Jenks as a participant) three consecutive years at the Mabee Center, which is oh so conveniently located in the Jenks School District. So, no, I'm not surprised.

[picasso]

Go Enid, go Corbin Bigheart and Austin Box. spank that Jenks a** and send those trophy Moms home crying in their shiny SUV's.:D

[bluedogok]

None have been very competitive in the past 10-15 years or longer. The east has been very dominant, most of the strong west schools split their high schools up around that time. Most of the Tulsa powerhouses haven't.

[OSUAggie]

Quit participating as in all the western team are terrible, or quit participating as in you only have a partial state championship?

The former.

[royalfan5]

The former.
That's what I figured.

[mfosterftw]

Good to hear Permian's back to winning again.

Permian is average... like 8-3 record or something along those lines. I figure that even with the game in Lubbock that the Dragons are a 2-3 touchdown favorite.

And if Carroll-Trinity in Texas Stadium pulled 46,000+, I doubt Carroll-Permian in Lubbock is going to draw close to that, let alone a sellout.

Marc

[william_brasky]

No.. this is how it goes..

There is a rule in the OSSAA handbook or whatever it is that the site be neutral, and on east side of the state in even years, and neutral and west in odd years or some crap like that. I have looked it up before, but I can't seem to find it again. I am pretty sure thats how it is anyways..

this guy is correct. they alternate from OKC metro to Tulsa metro.

last year was in Norman

[CobraKai]

this guy is correct. they alternate from OKC metro to Tulsa metro.

last year was in Norman

I remember one time in the mid 90s watching Rodney Rideau and MWC beat Jenks in Edmond for the title, so I guess sometimes it works out that way.

[Canyonero]

the true crime is the OSSAA scheduling this game the same time as the OU game. you have a lot of Jenks and Enid fans who are going to miss the Sooners, and a ton of Sooner fans who would watch just to see Box play against a great Jenks D.

[washington's fave]

If the game were in Stillwater, people would say that that would not be a neutral site.


I don't know why the game isn't in Stoolwater - it has to be the most neutral site in the state, after all it is owned by everyone but the local team.

[noose7699]

I remember one time in the mid 90s watching Rodney Rideau and MWC beat Jenks in Edmond for the title, so I guess sometimes it works out that way.

Actually it was in 95, and it was in stoolwater. I was at that game, still the best highschool game I have ever seen. Bombers looked pretty salty this season, bringin everyone back for 07. Hopefully back to the Bombers of old. Hopefully.

But yea, thanks for bringin back the great memory of that game.

While on the subject, what does everyone think the outcome of the game is tonight between jenks and enid, and what channel is it on? I have cox, and I know they been broadcasting some games this year. Didn't know if they would show this one, being that it has been postponed so many times.

[noose7699]

Go Enid, go Corbin Bigheart and Austin Box. spank that Jenks a** and send those trophy Moms home crying in their shiny SUV's.:D

I gotta spread some rep around before greenin you again. I'll get ya though, bruh. :D

[Larry&Leisa]

Bigheart, Chelf, and a couple others are very good players... but Box.. well.. you can tell its all in slow motion for him, but that being said I'm not sure the Big Blue has enough else to stop Jenks.

Box should develop into good player at OU. Look forward to watching him grow even more.

[picasso]

My daughter's Norman High girls' basketball team had to play in the state tournament ( with Jenks as a participant) three consecutive years at the Mabee Center, which is oh so conveniently located in the Jenks School District. So, no, I'm not surprised.
for years and years the state basketball tourney was in OKC. just sayin.

[Jimminy Crimson]

for years and years the state basketball tourney was in OKC. just sayin.

Still is for the small schools.

State Fair Arena, aka 'The Big House' :cool:

[JLMSOONER]

I was wondering if anyone had any info on Austin Box from Enid since he is an OU commit????

[Jimminy Crimson]

I was wondering if anyone had any info on Austin Box from Enid since he is an OU commit????

He is a stud and will win the game single handedly tonight.

[OSUAggie]

I was wondering if anyone had any info on Austin Box from Enid since he is an OU commit????

Try this. (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83996)

[Pricetag]

There was a week in the playoffs where all the East schools had to travel to the home stadium of their West opponents because of scheduling rules--there's no room for bitching about this game being at Skelly. Enid will be able to put as many fans in that stadium as they want.

[#1-Erin-Higgins-Fan]

Anybody wanna try and predict the score? I'll say JENKS 38-24

[noose7699]

I'll say Enid 44 Jenks 0.... hey, same score as when you guys played that team from arkansas last year!! :O:O

But seriously, I think Enid will pull it out, probably by 3 touchdowns. That Box is a sick good athlete. Glad he's going to OU.

[guzziguy]

While on the subject, what does everyone think the outcome of the game is tonight between jenks and enid, and what channel is it on? .

Tulsa Cox #4, starting at 7:30....right now. Jenks scored on the opening kickoff.

Nope, flag.

[noose7699]

just out of curiosity.. do the refs ever throw flags against jenks? I have counted 7 blown penalties in the 3rd quarter alone....

jus sayin...

[starrca23]

Enid should be disappointed this game wasn't last week, thwy were on a role.

[SoonerDood]

The same way Owen Field was a "neutral site" for Mustang- Tulsa Union last season.

[The Preach Man]

Enid should be disappointed this game wasn't last week, thwy were on a role.

your kidding right? I'd think that both teams were on a roll seeing that there in the finals. :rolleyes:

[Okieflyer]

Who won?

[hurricane'bone]

Jenks 28-7

And some of you guys will bitch about anything.

[Sooner_Bob]

Enid had several drive killing penalties that totally took the wind out of their sails.

[soonerjoker]

is Mabee Center in jenks ???

[OUmillenium]

Enid had several drive killing penalties that totally took the wind out of their sails.
...and a couple of penalties on Jenks that allowed them to maintain the TD drive.

[SoonerInKCMO]

is Mabee Center in jenks ???

Not in the city of Jenks but is in the Jenks school disctrict.

[OUmillenium]

While walking up to the stadium, I "predicted" a similar outcome as the Jenks v. Lawton High game(played in Lawton at Cameron Stadium by the way - 3 hour drive for Jenks).

LHS had a scrambling QB that was tough to bring down. Once the Jenks D keyed on him and stopped turning the ball over, it was all Jenks. 29 straight points to win 29-12.

Finals were much the same. Box took a lot of hits and some hard landings on the turf in the 1st half. He did not move too well in the 2nd half.

Was the first play of the game(return) fielded by Jenks in the endzone? I thought he was in the endzone and ran it out without the refs blowing it dead.

Congrats to Enid for a great season. Tom Cobble is a class guy(and a great AD to work for!).

[The_Red_Patriot]

Enid had no offense. Jenks dominated the offensive and defensive lines.

Enid ran out of the spread all night and Jenks shut it down. Enid's only run plays were off tackle and delay handoffs out of spread and Qb run plays. They never once lined up and ran the ball at them.

East high school football is much much much better than west.

Much better

[bigheadtodd]

it's neutral because Enid fans have cars just like Jenks fans do

[Soonerus]

Jenks sucks for not splitting up their school...it's pathetic...

[UberSooner]

Yeah, hitting property owners in a built out district for the extra taxes it would take to buy the real estate and finish out completely new facility is just inexcusable. Luckily that south Tulsa property goes so cheap.

[bluedogok]

Jenks sucks for not splitting up their school...it's pathetic...
That is what killed some of the powers in the west, when Moore and Norman split to two schools and Edmond went from one to three. It gives more kids a chance to play but significantly reduces the talent pool.

I know that when I was in high school we had around 1,500 students in 3 grades (PC West - 82) had about 100 come out for football. When my sister graduated in 94 they were around 1,400 in four grades and you would see about 60 out there. PCW won the big school 4A title in 1981, they really fell off the map when Mike Little left.

Jenks and Union remind me of some of the large high schools down here in Texas, they are pretty much like college teams at the high school level and everyone else is a I-AA school. It seems pretty pathetic for the students that as long as they are dominating the schools seem to have no interest in splitting into smaller schools which might provide a better education for all students and give some a chance to play whose parents might not want to move just to give them a chance to play.

[Soonerus]

That is what killed some of the powers in the west, when Moore and Norman split to two schools and Edmond went from one to three. It gives more kids a chance to play but significantly reduces the talent pool.

I know that when I was in high school we had around 1,500 students in 3 grades (PC West - 82) had about 100 come out for football. When my sister graduated in 94 they were around 1,400 in four grades and you would see about 60 out there. PCW won the big school 4A title in 1981, they really fell off the map when Mike Little left.

Jenks and Union remind me of some of the large high schools down here in Texas, they are pretty much like college teams at the high school level and everyone else is a I-AA school. It seems pretty pathetic for the students that as long as they are dominating the schools seem to have no interest in splitting into smaller schools which might provide a better education for all students and give some a chance to play whose parents might not want to move just to give them a chance to play.

Bingo....

[SoonerInKCMO]

Enrollment numbers (from greatschools.net):
PC North - 2237
Broken Arrow - 2145
Norman North - 2128
Westmoore - 2090
Jenks - 2086
Putnam City - 2030
Edmond - 2008
Moore - 1893
Union - 1853
Yukon - 1833
Norman - 1822
PC West - 1789
Edmond Sante Fe - 1786

Ooh yeah, that Jenks is far and away bigger and badder than everyone.

:les: BREAK UP THE TROJANS!!

:rolleyes:

[bluedogok]

How many grades does that include? Sheer numbers do not tell the whole story.

I know the PC Schools are for grades 9-12, back when Edmond had one high school it was just for grades 11-12 and they had a mid-high for grades 9-10, they had graduating classes in the 1,400 to 1,500 range. My sister went to 9th grade in Jr. high and they switched to the middle school system her sophomore year and the school grew significantly when two classes were added.

I know that Jenks and Union are the class programs in the state right now, they have good coaching that is stable. The main thing is how many players do they have coming out for football? Most of the schools in the west seem to have many less players coming out than there was back when I was in school. I would imagine there is some recruiting of good players to those districts because of the success. We all know that happens everywhere at every level.

Plus....how can you like any school with the name Trojans, seems like sacrilege :D
I know, my jr. high team had that name and I hated it.

[achiro]

East high school football is much much much better than west.

Much better
Is this sarcasm that I missed, you know cause if you are serious well, thats just a silly statement.

[bri]

Enrollment numbers (from greatschools.net):
PC North - 2237
Broken Arrow - 2145
Norman North - 2128
Westmoore - 2090
Jenks - 2086
Putnam City - 2030
Edmond - 2008
Moore - 1893
Union - 1853
Yukon - 1833
Norman - 1822
PC West - 1789
Edmond Sante Fe - 1786

Ooh yeah, that Jenks is far and away bigger and badder than everyone.

:les: BREAK UP THE TROJANS!!

:rolleyes:

Shhhh! Logic only makes 'em cranky.

[JohnnyMack]

This goes back to that whole debate that people not from Tulsa don't understand that Jenks and Union really aren't that big in terms of the size of their district. It's really due to the direction in which the city is growing and the kind of demographics that Jenks/Union have to pull from. Just because Jenks/Union have built powerful programs don't be hatin'.

[Soonerus]

Enrollment numbers (from greatschools.net):
PC North - 2237
Broken Arrow - 2145
Norman North - 2128
Westmoore - 2090
Jenks - 2086
Putnam City - 2030
Edmond - 2008
Moore - 1893
Union - 1853
Yukon - 1833
Norman - 1822
PC West - 1789
Edmond Sante Fe - 1786

Ooh yeah, that Jenks is far and away bigger and badder than everyone.

:les: BREAK UP THE TROJANS!!

:rolleyes:

I do not think those numbers are accurate, I'll try to find the real one's...

[JohnnyMack]

I would imagine there is some recruiting of good players to those districts because of the success. We all know that happens everywhere at every level.

Why do you hate KeJuan Jones?

[The Preach Man]

The fact is: Anytime a program(or 2 in this case) is dominant everyone else get jealous and cries about it. Im not saying that I dont do this, Im just not doing it because I live in the Tulsa area.

Stop crying!!!!

[bigheadtodd]

Losers make excuses.....Jenks is better, has been for a long time now.....They have great coaches....and if I had a young man that I thought had some ability to make it to college...i would want him to be coached by the best....that's why people move their kids to Jenks...

[bluedogok]

I guess it would be alright with all of the Tulsa Sooner fans if USC won the MNC for 10 years straight, all would be well then :rolleyes:

When there is that kind of dominance, something is not right with the system that is in place.

Yes, Jenks has some sort of system in place that is better than everyone else (even better than Union) and coaching stability is a big part of that. But every other league makes adjustments for competitive balance, something needs to be looked at. I don't know what could be done, but I also know that the west needs to improve what they are doing.

[Soonerus]

Jenks enrollment is at 3000 or above, Broken Arrow and Union are both above 4000...I can't cut and paste them but those are the true numbers, everybody else is 2000's or below......no reason to try to hide or mis-lead the true facts.....

[tulsaoilerfan]

Losers make excuses.....Jenks is better, has been for a long time now.....They have great coaches....and if I had a young man that I thought had some ability to make it to college...i would want him to be coached by the best....that's why people move their kids to Jenks...
I always thought it was because they offered the parents better paying jobs?:D

[tulsaoilerfan]

I guess it would be alright with all of the Tulsa Sooner fans if USC won the MNC for 10 years straight, all would be well then :rolleyes:

When there is that kind of dominance, something is not right with the system that is in place.

Yes, Jenks has some sort of system in place that is better than everyone else (even better than Union) and coaching stability is a big part of that. But every other league makes adjustments for competitive balance, something needs to be looked at. I don't know what could be done, but I also know that the west needs to improve what they are doing.

I could care less about any football above Henryetta's class(2A), but when two schools have won every state championship in the largest class in the state for over a decade, it does make me wonder what in the hell is going on with that and how they can sustain that success for so long

[The_Red_Patriot]

Is this sarcasm that I missed, you know cause if you are serious well, thats just a silly statement.


When was the last time a team from the west has won 6A?

[CatfishSooner]

Jenks is gay.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Enrollment numbers (from greatschools.net):
PC North - 2237
Broken Arrow - 2145
Norman North - 2128
Westmoore - 2090
Jenks - 2086
Putnam City - 2030
Edmond - 2008
Moore - 1893
Union - 1853
Yukon - 1833
Norman - 1822
PC West - 1789
Edmond Sante Fe - 1786

Ooh yeah, that Jenks is far and away bigger and badder than everyone.

:les: BREAK UP THE TROJANS!!

:rolleyes:

Not sure where they got their numbers, but according to the OSSAA classification schedule for 2006-07 the ADM for the schools is as follows

1. BA 4326.55
2. Union 4044.83
3. Jenks 2839.20
4. Westmoore 2821.00
5. Moore 2681.00

The Top 10 largest schools in 6A are all over 2,000 ADM, while at the bottom of the scale is Tulsa Washington with a little over 1200 ADM; Enid, the runner up to Jenks, has an ADM of 1646.4. Now tell me again how it's fair for these schools to be in the same class with those 5 schools?

[CatfishSooner]

how does BA have .55 of a kid?

[PrideTrombone]

Hell, Broken Arrow sucks at football. If it was just sheer enrollment numbers they'd win ever year.

[bri]

Sounds to me the supporters of the "other" schools in 6A need to either quit their bitching and make more babies, or petition to have their poor widdle schools dropped down a class where they can be more competitive.

[CatfishSooner]

OR maka a class 7A and let BA, Union, and Jenks all play themselves.

[tulsaoilerfan]

how does BA have .55 of a kid?
They have a midget mascot i guess:D

[tulsaoilerfan]

OR maka a class 7A and let BA, Union, and Jenks all play themselves.
I was thinking the same thing, but even if you take the top 16 schools and make a new class you still have an enrollment gap of 2600 kids from the top school in BA to the bottom school, which would be Charles Page; again, i could care less, just trying to bring some numbers into this discussion:pop:

[OUAndy1807]

Rooting for Jenks or Union is like rooting for the Yankees, or the ****ing Roman Empire.

seriously, it's sad that it's gotten this bad. I mean, it's fair that someone has to play a school with more than double the students? If these schools aren't going to split up the governing bodys should make some kind of new class for them.

[tulsaoilerfan]

I have been told that back in the 60's or early 70's, Union was so small a district that they played Dewar, which is a town of around 900 people 3 miles northeast of here; Dewar plays 8 man football now with an ADM of 124 students; pretty amazing!!

[bluedogok]

Well, Texas does have two sets of playoffs for Class 5A, it is broken into divisions based on school population. That allows the teams to play each other during the regular season but once the playoffs come they are split. At first I thought it was goofy being used to the Oklahoma system but it makes sense as long as there are a few schools that insist on being so large.

With a difference of 3100 students from top to bottom, make the cutoff about 2500 students between Div. 1 and Div. 2 playoffs or a 7A class.

[CatfishSooner]

Maybe they should just let Norman, Moore, and Edmond field just one team each to even it up a little bit?

[bri]

It sounds to me that you should be airing your grievances with the school boards of the districts that split their schools, rather than with the Jenks and Union boards.

And I think it's simply not right that Jenks and Union get to put 4,000 players on the field at the same time, when the other team is limited to 11.

[OUAndy1807]

It sounds to me that you should be airing your grievances with the school boards of the districts that split their schools, rather than with the Jenks and Union boards.

And I think it's simply not right that Jenks and Union get to put 4,000 players on the field at the same time, when the other team is limited to 11.
yes, because this is not a forum to discuss things. in fact, let's just shut down the board all together because I believe that any grievance that anyone could possibly have would probably be more productively handled if it was directed somewhere else.

also, since enrollment doesn't seem to matter to the quality of teams put on the field, let's just do away with the divisions. Round 1 next year could be Slapout vs. Jenks.

[OU4LIFE]

Stillwater is perceived to be much closer to Enid than south Tulsa, even though it's somewhere around a 20 mile difference, as Paperclip noted. I wasn't saying that Stillwater wouldn't be a neutral site, but that a lot of people would say that it wasn't neutral. I think the game should be played in SWO, but I don't the reasoning that it's not played there.


I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been posted. You can thanks Holder for the game not being in Stw. When the stadium wasn't ready for the game on Tues. OSU was contacted about the possibility of hosting the champ game. Holder instantly asked for $14,500 for the use of the facilities. (OU offered to host for $6,000). The officials in charge told him they would call him back...after coming to a decision, they called Holder back at which time he withdrew the offer and told him they had no interest in hosting the game.

Just another dick move in a long line of dick moves by Holder. I guess a "team on the rise" means they are too good to mingle with the lower class people of high school football in Oklahoma. And all this time I thought they were a PUBLIC university.

[tulsaoilerfan]

It sounds to me that you should be airing your grievances with the school boards of the districts that split their schools, rather than with the Jenks and Union boards.

And I think it's simply not right that Jenks and Union get to put 4,000 players on the field at the same time, when the other team is limited to 11.
Ok, i guess we are wrong in thinking that having 1600 more kids in your school isn't an advantage; it's all coaching and facilities.

[tulsaoilerfan]

yes, because this is not a forum to discuss things. in fact, let's just shut down the board all together because I believe that any grievance that anyone could possibly have would probably be more productively handled if it was directed somewhere else.

also, since enrollment doesn't seem to matter to the quality of teams put on the field, let's just do away with the divisions. Round 1 next year could be Slapout vs. Jenks.
The difference in enrollment between Jenks and BTW is roughly the same as the difference between Henryetta(2A) and Putnam City(6A), but i guess that wouldn't be the reason we lost if we had to play them

[bri]

yes, because this is not a forum to discuss things. in fact, let's just shut down the board all together because I believe that any grievance that anyone could possibly have would probably be more productively handled if it was directed somewhere else.

also, since enrollment doesn't seem to matter to the quality of teams put on the field, let's just do away with the divisions. Round 1 next year could be Slapout vs. Jenks.

I'm sorry, you lost me after the second "wah".

I didn't say you mewing nancies couldn't bitch and whine all you wanted on the Sooner Football board about...um, non-Sooner football. What I WAS saying was that instead of being ****ed at the school districts that haven't split their high schools, perhaps the blame falls on those districts that have.

[achiro]

and if I had a young man that I thought had some ability to make it to college...i would want him to be coached by the best....that's why people move their kids to Jenks...
Yup, and this has been going on for a long time. Jenks and Union have kids moving in JUST to play football. It doesn't hurt a bit that it's a decent, some would even say desirable, location. It's not violating any recruiting laws because the parents move to the district. Then again a commute to downtown from 121st is a bit different than a commute from Enid.


When was the last time a team from the west has won 6A?
but you acted like it was a coaching issue.(LIke a west coast offense type thing). See above for the real reason, It's not just coaching, its the pool of players that the school has to choose from. I have to wonder what the numbers of kids "trying out" for the football team are? It wasn't too many years ago that folks around here wondered if there were enough kids trying out to even make up an entire team let alone a JV squad.

[1stTimeCaller]

I'm sorry, you lost me after the second "wah".

I didn't say you mewing nancies couldn't bitch and whine all you wanted on the Sooner Football board about...um, non-Sooner football. What I WAS saying was that instead of being ****ed at the school districts that haven't split their high schools, perhaps the blame falls on those districts that have.

I thought you were better than this.

Instead of addressing any point that Andy made you resort to petty name calling. His logic has bested you and this was your retort.

nice.

[OU4LIFE]

:pop:

[The_Red_Patriot]

The east teams are better than the west.


This is old news.

How many times do I have to say this

[OUAndy1807]

The east teams are better than the west.


This is old news.

How many times do I have to say this
thanks for the insightful post.

[SoonerInKCMO]

Not sure where they got their numbers, but according to the OSSAA classification schedule for 2006-07 the ADM for the schools is as follows

1. BA 4326.55
2. Union 4044.83
3. Jenks 2839.20
4. Westmoore 2821.00
5. Moore 2681.00

The Top 10 largest schools in 6A are all over 2,000 ADM, while at the bottom of the scale is Tulsa Washington with a little over 1200 ADM; Enid, the runner up to Jenks, has an ADM of 1646.4. Now tell me again how it's fair for these schools to be in the same class with those 5 schools?

ADM is the average daily attendance for grades 9-12. The numbers I posted are the enrollment numbers for just the high schools themselves which aren't always 9-12. Union, for example is only 11-12; do kids in 9-10 play on the high school team?

[#1-Erin-Higgins-Fan]

Well, looks like I was right. STATE CHAMPS!!!......AGAIN!!!!! :D

[1stTimeCaller]

ADM is the average daily attendance for grades 9-12. The numbers I posted are the enrollment numbers for just the high schools themselves which aren't always 9-12. Union, for example is only 11-12; do kids in 9-10 play on the high school team?

If they are good enough.

[OUmillenium]

If it all comes down to attendance, why doesn't BA win state in everything they compete in? Great girls softball program, some wrestling, but that is about it. Oh yeah, great band at BA also.

[achiro]

If it all comes down to attendance, why doesn't BA win state in everything they compete in? Great girls softball program, some wrestling, but that is about it. Oh yeah, great band at BA also.
Because the parents with really good football players move into the other districts to get the exposure of those schools. If your "jr" was really good at football, would you want him to be the best player on a very mediocre team or a top player on a championship level team? Duh...Keep up.:D

[bri]

I thought you were better than this.

Instead of addressing any point that Andy made you resort to petty name calling. His logic has bested you and this was your retort.

nice.

Okay, if you think so. Yes, I was thouroughly defeated by his stunning Vulcan logic and had no counter-point in my post. Oh, wait, I did. I forgot that you're only programmed to see the "personal attacks and name-calling" and let all the other words in my posts fade into the background.

By the way, isn't it refreshing to openly dislike me, instead of doing it behind my back like a catty 13 year old girl?

[OUAndy1807]

it's shocking that I'm not sensing a ton of outrage from the jenks/tulsa contingent.

[JohnnyMack]

People who hate on Jenks are whinny crybabbies. Period. End of story. Get better. They aren't some monster of a school district like BA, they're just better than everyone else. To cry that Jenks needs to be busted up is moronic.

Also, I like Andy's avatar.

[bri]

I live in Tulsa, yes, but I didn't attend any TPS, Union, or Jenks schools. I am a graduate of Pryor High, and we were one of the smallest schools in 4A year in and year out. So yeah, I know the competitive disadvantage you can be at going up against schools that have larger talent pools and better facilities. But my point is that the West is lagging behind Jenks and Union because of self-inflicted wounds; THEY chose to split the schools, so I think it's laughable to decry Union and Jenks for not splitting.

[OUmillenium]

Because the parents with really good football players move into the other districts to get the exposure of those schools. If your "jr" was really good at football, would you want him to be the best player on a very mediocre team or a top player on a championship level team? Duh...Keep up.:D


It also happens in other sports at other schools. You think Owasso's baseball championships were won soley by homegrown Owasso boys? Or Union's baseball championships?

[1stTimeCaller]

Okay, if you think so. Yes, I was thouroughly defeated by his stunning Vulcan logic and had no counter-point in my post. Oh, wait, I did. I forgot that you're only programmed to see the "personal attacks and name-calling" and let all the other words in my posts fade into the background.

By the way, isn't it refreshing to openly dislike me, instead of doing it behind my back like a catty 13 year old girl?

If you will remember when you took that job at a hospital doing something with inventory of computers and couldn't post very much I remember making a post that said "Whatever kind of a bedpan cleaning job that keeps him off of here is alright with me."

That seems like a pretty open statement of dislike.

Please point out your counter in your response to Andy. Please do it. You can either use your super duper well connected poster skillz or your spek reading skills, your choice.

Keep up the solid work, DEC.

[JohnnyMack]

I live in Tulsa, yes, but I didn't attend any TPS, Union, or Jenks schools. I am a graduate of Pryor High, and we were one of the smallest schools in 4A year in and year out. So yeah, I know the competitive disadvantage you can be at going up against schools that have larger talent pools and better facilities. But my point is that the West is lagging behind Jenks and Union because of self-inflicted wounds; THEY chose to split the schools, so I think it's laughable to decry Union and Jenks for not splitting.

Edison pwns Pryor. At least we did back in tha day. I'm sure it still does.

[OUmillenium]

it's shocking that I'm not sensing a ton of outrage from the jenks/tulsa contingent.


Same stuff comes around every year.

[colleyvillesooner]

Now we're talking.

[hurricane'bone]

This thread is still incredibly dumb

[hurricane'bone]

Edison pwns Pryor. At least we did back in tha day. I'm sure it still does.


Edison sucks gigantic donkey balls.

[OU4LIFE]

me to this whole thread:

wah

[achiro]

Why don't we apply your same argument to college football and break up D-1 into different classes. I mean...how fair is that a little old school like OU has to play a school twice its size like Texas.
Apples and Watermelons

[CobraKai]

Can someone look at the numbers again and explain why, despite the facts, that people keep insisting that Jenks dramatically outnumbers the West-side schools? Union and BA? Yes. Jenks? No. Jenks is bigger than the Moore schools by a few students (btw...Jenks has grown like crazy...when they won their 6 in a row there were several OKC school that were as big or bigger). Everyone keeps posting how much bigger the 3 Tulsa schools are, and seems to ignore the fact that there are either 2 giant schools (BA and Union), or there are 5 (BA, Union, Jenks, Westmoore, and Moore). Saying there are 3 is kind of like they way OSU always points out that they have won 5 of the last 12, somehow cutting the stats off at the arbitrary number that makes their argument look better.

If you want to be a hater, that is fine. Just say that Jenks recruits players and pays off officials and cheats, or whatever, but if you want to claim that there are 3 superschools attendence-wise then you have to add Moore and Westmoore, and you have to go back and revise history to explain Jenks' past success, when they were not larger than the PCs and Edmonds of the world.

[hurricane'bone]

Apples and Watermelons


That's why I edited it, I hadn't thought out my argument, due to lack of sleep, but that still doesn't change the fact that this thread is gayer than gay.

[CobraKai]

That's why I edited it, I hadn't thought out my argument, due to lack of sleep, but that still doesn't change the fact that this thread is gayer than gay.

Are you changing the subject to the OU Horsepigs mascot debate again?

[bri]

If you will remember when you took that job at a hospital doing something with inventory of computers and couldn't post very much I remember making a post that said "Whatever kind of a bedpan cleaning job that keeps him off of here is alright with me."

That seems like a pretty open statement of dislike.

Please point out your counter in your response to Andy. Please do it. You can either use your super duper well connected poster skillz or your spek reading skills, your choice.

Keep up the solid work, DEC.



I didn't say you mewing nancies couldn't bitch and whine all you wanted on the Sooner Football board about...um, non-Sooner football. What I WAS saying was that instead of being ****ed at the school districts that haven't split their high schools, perhaps the blame falls on those districts that have.

Reading comprehension: Your friend for life.

[soonerjoker]

is it true that a new HS is being built in BA ???

plano has 3 hi-schools, (only jr. & sr.) & 2 of them are in the top 5
largest in tejass.

keeping in mind that sports are not the most important thing in school,
i think more schools need to be built for the benefit of the overall
student body.

JMHO

[JohnnyMack]

I think the main reason a school district splits itself up is for the benefit of the students, not for the benefit of the football program. But I may be dumb.

[OU4LIFE]

I can pee farther than any of you.

[achiro]

I can pee farther than any of you.
It's because of all that back pressure from your prostate.

[Pricetag]

These people will really be crying in their beers when Booker T busts out a state championship.

[CobraKai]

I think the main reason a school district splits itself up is for the benefit of the students, not for the benefit of the football program. But I may be dumb.

True, but Union and BA have a different philosophy on splitting. they have actually both split...twice. However, they do not split in half vertically, they split horizontally. They build a new school for the 9th graders, and one for the 10th graders, and one for 11th and 12th, rather than splitting 9-12 into 2 schools of 9-12s. I spoke with a principal of Union's 7th grade center once and asked when they were going to split. Her response was that Union strongly believes that 9th graders should not be in school with 12th graders (that they actually have alot more in common with 8th graders than 12th graders, and putting them together is like sending the lambs to teh wolves/aggies). So, when they first split, they built a new school and instead of moving half the 9-12s to the new school, they moved the 9-10 to the new school, and left the 11-12 at one school. The other reason was because she said their facilities are so amazing (and they are), that any split would likely result in half of the students getting stuck with inferior facilities. Given that Union schools are now land-locked and are unlikely to experience much more growth they felt that splitting 9s and 10s away from the older kids was more practical. I'm not saying it is right, but that is why they (and BA) have done it this way.

[OUmillenium]

True, but Union and BA have a different philosophy on splitting. they have actually both split...twice. However, they do not split in half vertically, they split horizontally. They build a new school for the 9th graders, and one for the 10th graders, and one for 11th and 12th, rather than splitting 9-12 into 2 schools of 9-12s. I spoke with a principal of Union's 7th grade center once and asked when they were going to split. Her response was that Union strongly believes that 9th graders should not be in school with 12th graders (that they actually have alot more in common with 8th graders than 12th graders, and putting them together is like sending the lambs to teh wolves/aggies). So, when they first split, they built a new school and instead of moving half the 9-12s to the new school, they moved the 9-10 to the new school, and left the 11-12 at one school. The other reason was because she said their facilities are so amazing (and they are), that any split would likely result in half of the students getting stuck with inferior facilities. Given that Union schools are now land-locked and are unlikely to experience much more growth they felt that splitting 9s and 10s away from the older kids was more practical. I'm not saying it is right, but that is why they (and BA) have done it this way.



And Jenks.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Can someone look at the numbers again and explain why, despite the facts, that people keep insisting that Jenks dramatically outnumbers the West-side schools? Union and BA? Yes. Jenks? No. Jenks is bigger than the Moore schools by a few students (btw...Jenks has grown like crazy...when they won their 6 in a row there were several OKC school that were as big or bigger). Everyone keeps posting how much bigger the 3 Tulsa schools are, and seems to ignore the fact that there are either 2 giant schools (BA and Union), or there are 5 (BA, Union, Jenks, Westmoore, and Moore). Saying there are 3 is kind of like they way OSU always points out that they have won 5 of the last 12, somehow cutting the stats off at the arbitrary number that makes their argument look better.

If you want to be a hater, that is fine. Just say that Jenks recruits players and pays off officials and cheats, or whatever, but if you want to claim that there are 3 superschools attendence-wise then you have to add Moore and Westmoore, and you have to go back and revise history to explain Jenks' past success, when they were not larger than the PCs and Edmonds of the world.
Actually when i posted the ADM, i listed the top 5 schools in 6A which include Westmoore and Moore; i was shocked at the difference from 1 to 32 on that list as i didn't realize there was that big of a gap in 6A

[CobraKai]

Actually when i posted the ADM, i listed the top 5 schools in 6A which include Westmoore and Moore; i was shocked at the difference from 1 to 32 on that list as i didn't realize there was that big of a gap in 6A

Oh ya...I wasn't questioning your post at all. There have just been several follow-ups to your post where people have somehow concluded that there are 3 schools that far outpace the rest. I was just wondering how they arrived at that conclusion, with the 2 OKC schools excluded.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Oh ya...I wasn't questioning your post at all. There have just been several follow-ups to your post where people have somehow concluded that there are 3 schools that far outpace the rest. I was just wondering how they arrived at that conclusion, with the 2 OKC schools excluded.
Yeah, no prob; you could even almost include Owasso in that discussion with Moore and Westmoore as they are only a couple hundred kids smaller; there's no doubt that the Big 2 are way above their counterparts in the West; are the facilities at Jenks and Union that much better than the 2 Moore's?

[OUAndy1807]

so can the big schools that are divided up by grade pull from the lower schools (no "I don't think they do that" answers please, I know in my high school, when they had a stud 9th grader he played up with the high schoolers)

secondly, splitting up the schools by grade is a pretty ingenious way to get around the system, but is still kind of like skating on a technicality. it's the equivalent of OU starting a smaller state school with a Div 1 program, then using that schools scholarships to develop twice as many freshmen and sophomores, then transfering the students up to a team of only juniors and seniors (still with twice as many scholarships to give). And obviously this example doesn't take into consideration the NCAA transfer rules, because it's just an example and transfer rules don't apply to high schools (I think)

[The Preach Man]

Because the parents with really good football players move into the other districts to get the exposure of those schools. If your "jr" was really good at football, would you want him to be the best player on a very mediocre team or a top player on a championship level team? Duh...Keep up.:D

If that's the case then it has nothing to do with the size of the Jenks district. It has to do with the talent of the coaching staff and the players of the recent past.

THE FACT IS!!!!! IF YOUR NOT CRYING ABOUT BROKEN ARROW NOT BEING SPLIT YOUR JUST UPSET BECAUSE JENKS IS BETTER THAN YOU.

[OUAndy1807]

If that's the case then it has nothing to do with the size of the Jenks district. It has to do with the talent of the coaching staff and the players of the recent past.

THE FACT IS!!!!! IF YOUR NOT CRYING ABOUT BROKEN ARROW NOT BEING SPLIT YOUR JUST UPSET BECAUSE JENKS IS BETTER THAN YOU.
or because Broken Arrow just sucks that bad.

[The Preach Man]

or because Broken Arrow just sucks that bad.


I guess that throws out the "jenks and union are good because of there enrollment" argument. right?

[OUAndy1807]

no, it brings the "Broken Arrow sucks despite their large advantage due to huge enrollment" argument into play.

[achiro]

I guess that throws out the "jenks and union are good because of there enrollment" argument. right?
I don't think that I ever used that argument. Size of enrollment is just one part of the equation.

[The Preach Man]

I don't think that I ever used that argument. Size of enrollment is just one part of the equation.

Then you shouldnt have a problem with my post. However, some are saying that it isnt fair because of how big the schools are.

The Broken Arrow thing proves that a large enrollment doesnt make a football team good. Can it help? yes

[OUAndy1807]

Then you shouldnt have a problem with my post. However, some are saying that it isnt fair because of how big the schools are.

The Broken Arrow thing proves that a large enrollment doesnt make a football team good. Can it help? yes
if enrollment doesn't matter, then let's drop the classes altogether. Drumright can play Jenks in the first round and everything will be fair, right?

just because Broken Arrow sucks as bad as they do at football doesn't mean that enrollment doesn't matter and that having twice as many kids to draw from isn't a huge advantage. It means Broken Arrow sucks, that's all.

[CobraKai]

secondly, splitting up the schools by grade is a pretty ingenious way to get around the system, but is still kind of like skating on a technicality.)

For footbal, yes, but keep in mind that Jenks and Union score VERY favorably in academics relative to other schools in the state. You can call them football factories, but to question their success academically is silly. The reason they split the schools this way has nothing to do with sports and everything to do with their education philosophy. Sports is a beneficiary of this, no question, but the exact quote the Union principal told me was "9th graders have alot more in common with 8th graders than they do 12th graders, and we DO NOT want them in the same building."

[SoonerInKCMO]

secondly, splitting up the schools by grade is a pretty ingenious way to get around the system, but is still kind of like skating on a technicality.

No it isn't - because ADM is calculated based on kids in grades 9-12. Union's ADM includes the kids in the high school and the intermediate-mid-junior-whateverit'scalled-high that houses the 9th and 10th graders.

[JohnnyMack]

There was a time when Ada (at the 4A level) would have kicked the **** out of whoever got in their way, regardless of what class they were from.

[CobraKai]

There was a time when Ada (at the 4A level) would have kicked the **** out of whoever got in their way, regardless of what class they were from.

You got that right. I would not be surprised to someday see Booker T start kicking everyone, despite being a tiny 6A school.

[OUAndy1807]

No it isn't - because ADM is calculated based on kids in grades 9-12. Union's ADM includes the kids in the high school and the intermediate-mid-junior-whateverit'scalled-high that houses the 9th and 10th graders.

so they never pull from the lower schools? It's still one big school rather than 2 seperate schools, football-wise.

and I'm not crapping on their academics at all, just saying that the setup is a nice way to keep from having to break up their football factory by splitting into two schools.

9th graders have been in schools with 12th graders forever. I would venture to say that 1st graders have a lot more in common with pre-schoolers than with 5th or 6th graders. Do the Jenks schools split up their elementaries?

[OSUAggie]

You people are arguing the wrong way. Schools should be incorporating rather than splitting, especially so just outside of the city limits of the two major metro areas in the state.

Oklahoma has 541 public school districts (+ 192 private k-12 school districts) for 624,000 students. For the non-math majors, that would equate to an avg. of a little under 100 students per class, per district for public schools. Ridiculous....

If the more rural districts would incorporate a bit, this argument about Jenks/Union/BA/whatever other Tulsa suburb would be nullified. The quality of football may even get better, who knows... Better quality of high school football in Oklahoma = better recruiting for the state schools.

[CobraKai]

so they never pull from the lower schools? It's still one big school rather than 2 seperate schools, football-wise.

and I'm not crapping on their academics at all, just saying that the setup is a nice way to keep from having to break up their football factory by splitting into two schools.

9th graders have been in schools with 12th graders forever. I would venture to say that 1st graders have a lot more in common with pre-schoolers than with 5th or 6th graders. Do the Jenks schools split up their elementaries?

Yes, actually they do. They offer K-4, then a 5th and 6th grade center, 7th and 8th grade center, 9th grade center, etc.

I know that 9-12 have always been together. They were when I was in HS too. Jenks, BA, and Union have a philosophy that splitting by grade is more appropriate. You can certainly argue that philosophy. There are many reasons to do it that way...maturity and facilities are a few. There are reasons not to do it that way (mainly because "this is the way we've always done it"). As a parent of young girls I appreciate the fact that if my kids went to Jenks my 14 year old daughters will not be thrown in there with 18 year old boys. That doesn't mean they will never get in trouble with kids their own age, but I do think it is a far more practical and "well thought out" approach. Just my 2 cents. Obviously many of you disagree.

[CobraKai]

Better quality of high school football in Oklahoma = better recruiting for the state schools.

Now your talking...

;)

[achiro]

You people are arguing the wrong way. Schools should be incorporating rather than splitting, especially so just outside of the city limits of the two major metro areas in the state.

Oklahoma has 541 public school districts (+ 192 private k-12 school districts) for 624,000 students. For the non-math majors, that would equate to an avg. of a little under 100 students per class, per district for public schools. Ridiculous....

If the more rural districts would incorporate a bit, this argument about Jenks/Union/BA/whatever other Tulsa suburb would be nullified. The quality of football may even get better, who knows... Better quality of high school football in Oklahoma = better recruiting for the state schools.
Apples and watermelons

[Mjcpr]

9th graders have been in schools with 12th graders forever.

Not anywhere that I've lived or went to school. When I was in high school in Muskogee, Jr High was 7-9 and HS was 10-12. Here in the Broken Arrow district, high school is just 11th and 12th (I THINK) isn't it? I could definitely be wrong on the BA part, I'm sure somebody knows.

[picasso]

not going to read all of the pages but anyone defending Jenks or BA is crazy.
BA has one school just for frickin 8th graders!!! ask any teacher, it's a joke.

no way in China my kid is going to Jenks or one of the other corporate sports entities.

[CobraKai]

Not anywhere that I've lived or went to school. When I was in high school in Muskogee, Jr High was 7-9 and HS was 10-12. Here in the Broken Arrow district, high school is just 11th and 12th (I THINK) isn't it? I could definitely be wrong on the BA part, I'm sure somebody knows.

That is correct.

[JohnnyMack]

Not anywhere that I've lived or went to school. When I was in high school in Muskogee, Jr High was 7-9 and HS was 10-12. Here in the Broken Arrow district, high school is just 11th and 12th (I THINK) isn't it? I could definitely be wrong on the BA part, I'm sure somebody knows.

I was in school with 9 - 12, but that was due to the fact that the school I went to (Edison) was declining in size. When my brothers had gone there before me it was 10 - 12 in HS and 7 - 9 in Jr. High. They shifted it to 6 - 8 in Middle School and 9 - 12 in High School before I got there because of declining enrollment.

I also miss Bean Chowder day at school. But that is a whole different thread.

[CobraKai]

not going to read all of the pages but anyone defending Jenks or BA is crazy.
BA has one school just for frickin 8th graders!!! ask any teacher, it's a joke.


Explain why this is bad? My wife is a teacher and loves the concept. We've always done private school, but will probably end up at Jenks someday, for the academics BTW, not the sports.

[Mjcpr]

I don't really have a stake in this, but I wouldn't call those 3 districts "corporate sports entities". All I have ever heard is that those are the top 3 school districts in this area.....not for sports but for academics. The vast majority of parents with kids in these districts probably do not have a child involved in athletics.

[CobraKai]

I don't really have a stake in this, but I wouldn't call those 3 districts "corporate sports entities". All I have ever heard is that those are the top 3 school districts in this area.....not for sports but for academics. The vast majority of parents with kids in these districts probably do not have a child involved in athletics.

That is 100% why I would go there. I went to Kelley and we were planning to send our kids to Kelley or Metro. However, looking at the college numbers it appears that Jenks and Union are sending just as high of a % of kids to college as Bishop Kelley and Metro are. For $8000 per year! I always hated Jenks, mainly because I'm a hater by nature ;) (same reason I hate USC, Miami, Duke, etc...), but I'm coming around to the concept...especially when I write those checks for private school!

[CobraKai]

Incidently, we will eventually move to Jenks DESPITE the sports, not because of them. I want my girls to get to play varsity soccer, tennis, or whatever. At a place like Jenks or Union you have to be a superstar to sniff any varsity sports teams. I would prefer they NOT be so competitive, because my daughters are not Mia Hamms!

[JohnnyMack]

My kid ain't goin' to no fancy school. We're moving to Bug Tussle. I want him to be a salt of the earth kinda guy.

[CobraKai]

My kid ain't goin' to no fancy school. We're moving to Bug Tussle. I want him to be a salt of the earth kinda guy.

I've always felt the same, but when it came time to send my striking, sweet, blonde-headed girls to school I panicked. ;)

I am coming around though...just a brief sidetrack. Ironically (given my side of these arguments), I lived in Union schools when I panicked...partially because the size of the school freaked me out! :)

[picasso]

My kid ain't goin' to no fancy school. We're moving to Bug Tussle. I want him to be a salt of the earth kinda guy.
heh.

look, I have cousins who went to Jenks and one in particular was good in football and all-state in 2 other sports. I'm just not interested in putting my kid in that enviornment. plus the fact that my future wife went to Booker T. and depises all that is Jenks and Union.

I also happen to know Trimble (he was recently at a family funeral).

[JohnnyMack]

I hate to act like this, but by the time he (and his siblings) are of age, they will probably end up at either HH or CH. I don't see him doing the TPS thing and I don't see him doing the South Tulsa factory school thing.

[noose7699]

Sounds to me the supporters of the "other" schools in 6A need to either quit their bitching and make more babies, or petition to have their poor widdle schools dropped down a class where they can be more competitive.

bring a few hot brunettes, and I'll help you with that babies part.. :D

[Pricetag]

Broken Arrow does not suck at football. They're not Jenks or Union, but in the past decade or so, they've been right up there in that echelon just below them. They even particpated in that streak of years when the West Siders didn't even have a team in the 6A final.

[Pricetag]

One thing nobody is talking about is youth football. How are the programs over in the west side of the state? The ones that Jenks and Union are running are incredibly organized--by the time those kids get to high school, they've already been playing together for five-plus years. It makes a difference.

[OUAndy1807]

Broken Arrow does not suck at football. They're not Jenks or Union, but in the past decade or so, they've been right up there in that echelon just below them. They even particpated in that streak of years when the West Siders didn't even have a team in the 6A final.
if they have twice as many people as other schools in their division and don't dominate, they are sucking hind teat

again, it's shocking to me how the sides are alligning on this. the people from Tulsa are all for these semi-pro football teams and every other person in the state sees that they are unfair.

[CobraKai]

if they have twice as many people as other schools in their division and don't dominate, they are sucking hind teat

again, it's shocking to me how the sides are alligning on this. the people from Tulsa are all for these semi-pro football teams and every other person in the state sees that they are unfair.

But the people from Tulsa also listened to people from the westside complain about Jenks recruiting and paying players 10 years ago when Jenks was still dominating, but was actually smaller or the same size as compared to all of the OKC area schools. The fact remains that if the Tulsa schools split and still won people would come up with other reasons, as they did when Jenks was NOT bigger than the schools they dominated. It is a FACT that when Jenks won 6 straight they were NOT bigger than most of the OKC area schools. They were right in the middle of the pack with 2000 or so students. Of course back then we heard they were winning only because they recruited.

I'm sure westsiders will get equally defensive years from now if the tides turn and eastsiders start accusing them of cheating/paying players/recruiting.

Jenks has a great coaching staff and is winning right now. At some point the staff will leave and things will change. Look at Union.

[OUAndy1807]

so basically what it comes down to is that I think it's wrong to cheat and all the Tulsa folks think it's ok.

maybe we should just agree to disagree.

[CobraKai]

so basically what it comes down to is that I think it's wrong to cheat and all the Tulsa folks think it's ok.

maybe we should just agree to disagree.

Please. If by "cheat" you mean follow each and every rule TO THE LETTER, and offer a nationally recognized award winning education, then yes.

Was it cheating when George Foreman boxed Holyfield? I mean, after all, Foreman outweighed him by 60 pounds... no fair! The Tulsa schools play in the largest classification allowed in the state. It has no upper limit, according to the rules. If you can't hack it, keep splitting and drop down to a smaller division. Also, until you annex Moore into Tulsa and start painting them with your same brush this screams sour grapes to me. Also, please explain how Jenks cheated in the 90s, when they were smaller or the same size as 50% of the schools in 6A. I assume they were recruiting then. Right?

[OUAndy1807]

I thought it was obvious that I was joking, but I guess I should have included one of these ;)

[SoonerMajic]

not going to read all of the pages but anyone defending Jenks or BA is crazy.
BA has one school just for frickin 8th graders!!! ask any teacher, it's a joke.

no way in China my kid is going to Jenks or one of the other corporate sports entities.

I have been following this thread for awhile, and am somewhat surprised by all of the negative feelings toward Jenks and Union.

I have 3 kids in the Jenks district: a 12th grader, a 7th grader and a 3rd grader.

The size of the campuses can be a bit intimidating to some, but the quality of the education is first rate. My 7th grader takes Algebra, Chinese and Strings. My third grader is already learning geometry. You just cannot get that kind of education at most public schools in Oklahoma particularly smaller schools. (I know there are trade-offs, having graduated from a Class A high school)

The structure of any school should be based upon educating students, not to help create school districts equal in size for athletic purposes.

The argument that Jenks and Union should split their districts in order to equalize the population of the various 6A teams is just silly.

[CobraKai]

I thought it was obvious that I was joking, but I guess I should have included one of these ;)

My bad...normally I pick up on this (given that sarcasm is my middle name), but I've grown to be a little sensitive on this topic, mainly because until a few years ago I was one of those people that loved to bash Jenks. Now I'm planning to send my kids there, so I have been forced to re-think my opinion. No hard feelings hopefully...I jsut get a little worked up on this subject because it is so personal, and of course we all like to think we are doing what is best for our kids.

:)

[achiro]

Yup, and this has been going on for a long time. Jenks and Union have kids moving in JUST to play football. It doesn't hurt a bit that it's a decent, some would even say desirable, location. It's not violating any recruiting laws because the parents move to the district. Then again a commute to downtown from 121st is a bit different than a commute from Enid.

So we can get back on topic...
nobody(that I saw) even addressed this comment, does that mean that everyone agrees?:pop:

[SoonerMajic]

Jenks and Union do benefit from move-ins by:

a. people who move out of Tulsa Public Schools and surrounding areas in to their districts (Kejaun Jones did that when he went to Jenks), and

b. people who are relocating into the metro area from out of state who shop the schools before deciding where to live. (Jenks has recently been getting killed on those move-ins because their facilities were so poor compared to Union's UMAC)

People move into districts for both educational and athletic reasons. I do not know how you can keep that from happening short of an out right 1 year ban on any participation for everyone who has moved into a district.

By the way, this goes both ways, people move out of the big districts to a smaller district so their kids can play sports, or be raised in a more rural environment.

[CobraKai]

Yup, and this has been going on for a long time. Jenks and Union have kids moving in JUST to play football. It doesn't hurt a bit that it's a decent, some would even say desirable, location. It's not violating any recruiting laws because the parents move to the district. Then again a commute to downtown from 121st is a bit different than a commute from Enid.

I don't debate that one bit, but it is not just Jenks/Union. I know kids transfer into Booker T too. I know when I was at Bishop Kelley we had kids that came there simply because they were in TPS and the coaching was better (for some sports). My cousin played baseball at Union and was recruited away to play at Bishop Kelley after 9th grade. He later was All State and played D1 baseball in the Big 12 (have some interesting firsthand stories about a certain school down south that does not give extra incentives to players BTW).

I'm sure that parents move their kids to Jenks/Union for sports. I'm sure of it. Of course I moved into that district because I believe it will best prepare my kids academically, so I guess it is the same thing.

I would not call that "recruiting" though (not that I don't think HS programs recruit...ALL of them). The flip side is that you can look up and down the rosters of several other Tulsa area schools and find kids that transferred out of Jenks and Union to other schools because they thought they would get more playtime.

[JohnnyMack]

b. people who are relocating into the metro area from out of state who shop the schools before deciding where to live.

Isn't that what happened with the kid (Petersen I think was his name) who transferred in from Nebraska, went to Jenks and then committed went to Saxet? You think it was dumb luck his parents ended up in the Jenks district and not in the Memorial district?

[CobraKai]

Isn't that what happened with the kid (Petersen I think was his name) who transferred in from Nebraska, went to Jenks and then committed went to Saxet? You think it was dumb luck his parents ended up in the Jenks district and not in the Memorial district?

Not at all. Jenks has won two Malcom Baldridge awards in as many years (as one of the top few school systems in America). I doubt it is dumb luck that when anyone new transfers to the Tulsa area they look long and hard at Jenks first. BTW, if you haven't been to Tulsa in a while you will find that hardly anyone transfers into Memorial these days. Edison, yes. Memorial? No.

[SoonerMajic]

Isn't that what happened with the kid (Petersen I think was his name) who transferred in from Nebraska, went to Jenks and then committed went to Saxet? You think it was dumb luck his parents ended up in the Jenks district and not in the Memorial district?


The vast majority of families moving into the Tulsa metro area deliberately select Jenks or Union over other districts in the area because of educational and athletic issues so there is nothing unusual about that family. That is why real estate values are higher in those districts, more of a demand.

Should you punish someone for trying to make the most of their opportunities and skills, or force them to attend a mediocre school?

[CobraKai]

Should you punish someone for trying to make the most of their opportunities and skills, or force them to attend a mediocre school?

Are we changing the subject to OSU again? ;)

[noose7699]

Jenks is the state's 3rd largest school, even during their dominating era. They may not admit to it, but that doesn't take away the truth. But in my days at good ol MCHS, we were around 1400-1500 kids or so, and we dominated. In fact, the state championship came down between the two teams a few times in one way or another.

I remember playing carl albert, and.. well, let's just say don't send a titan to do a Bomber's job. It was bad. And they jumped up saying " oh, yall have so many more kids than we do" yada yada. You've heard it all. BEFORE the game, they ran their mouths, saying they were gonna run it up on us, ect. Then all of a sudden, it had to do with all the student body. I didn't know every student went out for football. In fact, we had less than 100 go out every season, probably still do. I think the size of the school has something to do with it.. I mean, it's obvious you got more players to pick from, and it IS an unfair advantage. But Booker T, the smallest of the 6A schools... beat jenks, AT jenks I think it was.

And after all is said and done.. there is still 11 players on offense, and 11 on defense..

[CobraKai]

enks is the state's 3rd largest school, even during their dominating era.

My wife graduated with 500 from Jenks HS in the 90s. My cousin graduated with 550 from PCN one year before. Jenks WAS NOT the state's 3rd largest school. The insane amount of growth in Jenks has been recent, within the last 7-8 years. Prior to that, during parts of the 6 in a row run, Jenks was the same size or smaller than Moore, Westmoore, PCs, Edmonds and Normans. Jenks has grown a ton over the last 7-8 years. Fact. Nobody cried about it then.

Incidently Jenks' championships started when Trimble arrived. They rarely to never happened before that, not that it could have anything to do with this argument.

[noose7699]

well, giving trimble credit for those championships is like giving phil jackson credit for all those championships during his days in chicago. :)

He hasn't hurt the program, however. :)

[Mjcpr]

Incidently Jenks' championships started when Trimble arrived. They rarely to never happened before that, not that it could have anything to do with this argument.

Didn't Ron Lancaster win at least one?

[SoonerMajic]

People are forgetting that Perry Beaver had some good teams in the 70s and 80s. Here a great article that refers to the evolution of Jenks football.

http://www.gtrnews.com/jenks-gazette/362/jenks-football-remains-premier

It's interesting that Perry attributes so much to the influence of busing and white-flight.

[Pricetag]

Should you punish someone for trying to make the most of their opportunities and skills, or force them to attend a West school?
Fixed that.

[noose7699]

Didn't Ron Lancaster win at least one?

He did in 93.. I was at the semi final game against Midwest City, they beat us, 13-12. We missed BOTH xtra points. ehhh. hate thinkin bout it. They went on to beat Kelly Gregg and Edmond in the finals, 21-14.

But in 95, we got our revenge. 34-31 in OT.... I think that's where he got fired at, because from what I heard, he was shoving a player or jerking him around or something on the sidelines..

One of the best games I ever seen, to this day...

[OUmillenium]

Hell, Broken Arrow sucks at football. If it was just sheer enrollment numbers they'd win ever year.


That's what I've been saying for years. Numbers do matter but the program, coaching, and off-season conditioning count for a lot as well. It's not just the size.

[OUmillenium]

I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been posted. You can thanks Holder for the game not being in Stw. When the stadium wasn't ready for the game on Tues. OSU was contacted about the possibility of hosting the champ game. Holder instantly asked for $14,500 for the use of the facilities. (OU offered to host for $6,000). The officials in charge told him they would call him back...after coming to a decision, they called Holder back at which time he withdrew the offer and told him they had no interest in hosting the game.

Just another dick move in a long line of dick moves by Holder. I guess a "team on the rise" means they are too good to mingle with the lower class people of high school football in Oklahoma. And all this time I thought they were a PUBLIC university.


Wow, did not hear that. Thanks for the info.

[OUmillenium]

Yeah, no prob; you could even almost include Owasso in that discussion with Moore and Westmoore as they are only a couple hundred kids smaller; there's no doubt that the Big 2 are way above their counterparts in the West; are the facilities at Jenks and Union that much better than the 2 Moore's?


Yes, both have constructed new football training and weight facilities in the last few years. Jenks' is brand new.

[OUmillenium]

For footbal, yes, but keep in mind that Jenks and Union score VERY favorably in academics relative to other schools in the state. You can call them football factories, but to question their success academically is silly. The reason they split the schools this way has nothing to do with sports and everything to do with their education philosophy. Sports is a beneficiary of this, no question, but the exact quote the Union principal told me was "9th graders have alot more in common with 8th graders than they do 12th graders, and we DO NOT want them in the same building."


This is the same philosophy at Jenks. Recently announced our 12 National Merit Semi-finalists by the way. Congrats to Jenks baseballer Damon Freeman(son of ex-major leaguer Jim Freeman) on making the list.

[OUmillenium]

You got that right. I would not be surprised to someday see Booker T start kicking everyone, despite being a tiny 6A school.


Booker T. kicked us this year on our home field. If you have the program and the athletes you can win - anytime...anywhere.