F-117 being retired

[royalfan5]

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/16104625.htm

[1stTimeCaller]

I'd bet that having one shot down in Serbia or wherever a few years has something to do with the decision.

She was a great aircraft for us. I remember when my dad took me to go see it and a Patriot missile battery at the air show in OKC shortly after Desert Storm. I thought that was the coolest aircraft I had ever seen and was amazed that it was able to fly.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I wonder what we have in the wings that no one knows about...

Just like the SR-171, you know there is something else there, wee just don't know it...

[Okla-homey]

It performed admirably, and that loss in the Balkans was probably a fluke.

That said, the weapons were carried internally and during that brief several seconds when the weapons bay doors opened, the RCS shot up to the range of a standard low-observable (vice "stealth") airplane.

Perhaps, that's when they painted it on their radar...if they ever did.

One more thing, IMHO it was never a fighter. It was a medium bomber. At the time though, the fighter community just coudn't abide having a "TAC" shield painted on anything that was called a bomber.

[1stTimeCaller]

I was thinking that the technology used to make the F-117 'stealth' was gone over by the Russians, Chinese, North Koreans and everyone else that wanted it after the plane was shot down. I just don't think that that aircraft is as stealthy as it once was.

[SicEmBaylor]

One more thing, IMHO it was never a fighter. It was a medium bomber. At the time though, the fighter community just coudn't abide having a "TAC" shield painted on anything that was called a bomber.

If I remember correctly one of the reasons it was designated a "fighter" rather than a "bomber" had to do with funding at the time. Congress was willing to fund the development and production of a new fighter, but not new bombers. I forget the timeline but I believe the B-1 program had just been canceled a few years prior during the Carter administration before being refunded by the Reagan administration. At any rate, I don't know how correct all of this is but I believe when the Reagan administration refunded the B-1 they had a tough time selling the development of the 117 as a bomber and instead simply re-designated it a fighter.

[reevie]

Wow, the KC Star has just now picked up on this? This is part of the package that the Air Force submitted to retire C-21s, U-2s and B-52s to Congress last December. I wonder if they know OU will be playing there Saturday night?

[Jerk]

Wow, the KC Star has just now picked up on this? This is part of the package that the Air Force submitted to retire C-21s, U-2s and B-52s to Congress last December. I wonder if they know OU will be playing there Saturday night?

I thought the AF was going to keep the B-52 well into this century.

So, they're finally going to dump the old beast, eh?

One of my favorite aviation jokes is the B-52 missed approach:

"Everyone grab a throttle! We're going around!"

[KStatePike]

The B-52 is expected to remain in service until 2045. I'm actually really surprised that they're retiring the F-117, although aircraft on the very cutting edge rarely have long service lives. I'm not sure how they can compare the F-117 and the F-22. While both stealthy, the F-117 has a much higher bomb load than the F-22. F-22's are expensive, but they don't carry the $2 billion tag that the B2 does. They have made significant improvements to the B1B also.

And the F-15 and F-16 are on their way out, they're being replaced by the F-22 from what I hear. There is a new concept comming out, I think carrying the designation F-36. Its supposed to be a hybrid of the F-16 and the Harrier. The Air Force is making stealth the #1 priority for new aircraft designs.

Remember: "Air doctrine must not stagnate."

[reevie]

From Defense Industry Daily, 12 Jan 06

http://defenseindustrydaily.com/geographical-focus/americas-usa/us-plans-to-retire-b52s-c21s-f117-u2-for-more-f22s-01736/


US Plans to Retire B-52s, C-21s, F-117 & U-2 for more F-22s
12-Jan-2006 14:53


The end for the U-2?
DefenseTech notes that a draft plan from the US Air Force plan (“program budget decision 720”) intends to retire the USA’s 33 U-2 reconnaissance aircraft, its 55 F-117 stealth fighters, 38 of its 76 C-21 Learjets, and about 40% of its B-52 bomber fleet between FY 2007-2011, in order to free up around $2.6 billion for the purchase of more F-22 Raptor fighters. The EB-52 SOJ [stand-off jammer] aircraft project would also be cancelled.

Some of these measures will be more controversial than others…

The most controversial aspect to this aircraft retirement plan is likely to be the cut of 38 B-52H Stratofortress bombers. Program Budget Decision 720 would apparently reduce the B-52 fleet from 94 to 56 aircraft, and kill the EB-52 SOJ [stand-off jammer] derivative that would have added long-range, persistent jamming capability to US forces.

Flight International reports that a Congressional Electronic Warfare Working Group, led by Rep. Joseph Pitts [R-PA] is gathering to oppose the EB-52 cuts, citing improvements in integrated air defense systems around the world and drawing comparisons to the USAF’s 1990s retirement of the EF-11 Raven.

The C-21 Learjets are unlikely to be hugely missed, though some have been performing light resupply runs and medical missions to front line bases. It will be interesting to see whether these missions stop if and when the fleet is cut, or VIP transport billets become more scarce instead.


F-117A NighthawkThe USA’s 55 F-117A Nighthawks, aka. “Wobblin’ Goblin” stealth attack planes, would be withdrawn from service before their original date of 2018. They would be replaced by far more capable F-22 stealth aircraft currently in inventory, which would combine attack (via the Small Diameter Bomb) and self-escort capability.

Candidly, the F-117 was a wonder weapon in its day, but the F-22/SDB combination more than replaces it. Meanwhile, the J-UCAS UAV program (UPDATE: if it isn’t cancelled, too) offers an unmaned alternative that could closely approximate the Nighthawk’s capabilities for less money by 2011. Even so, this proposed move to cut the F-117 already faces some opposition from Congress.

The famous U-2 Dragon Lady ultra-high altitude reconnaissance plane is increasingly being supplanted by unmanned platforms like the RQ-4B Global Hawk UAV, which recently flew with new SIGINT/ELINT sensors and continues to upgrade its capabilities. Meanwhile, the F-22 brings formidable intelligence and data-sharing capabilities of its own to the table.

Intense nostalgia is a more likely reaction to the U-2’s demise than ferocious opposition, though Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute disagrees. UPI provides more details re: PBD 720’s U-2 retirement plans, and also points out that the US Congress has killed attempts to shelve the U-2 before.

Nevertheless, Congress has historically been extremely resistant to retire weapons systems, and has denied past Pentagon requests to reduce some of these same systems before. In addition to any military considerations that may motivate Congressional action, it’s also worth noting that retired weapons systems tend to mean personnel cuts in the modern era. This means fewer jobs on local bases, of course, and increased likelihood of base closure in US BRAC rounds.

Note that according to this detailed InsideDefense.com report, most of the savings in Program Budget Decision 720 would come via personnel cost reductions.

[Okla-homey]

If I remember correctly one of the reasons it was designated a "fighter" rather than a "bomber" had to do with funding at the time. Congress was willing to fund the development and production of a new fighter, but not new bombers. I forget the timeline but I believe the B-1 program had just been canceled a few years prior during the Carter administration before being refunded by the Reagan administration. At any rate, I don't know how correct all of this is but I believe when the Reagan administration refunded the B-1 they had a tough time selling the development of the 117 as a bomber and instead simply re-designated it a fighter.

Far be it from me to correct you. I was only a serving AF officer at the time. Later in an acquisition billet at WPAFB and worked two years right next to the F-117 SPO. WTF should I know?

[StoopTroup]

Homey...

I worked with a guy that worked at Lockheed. I think he said the paint for those Stealth birds was like $22,000 a gallon. Any truth to that?

If your unable to answer...nod your head with a yes or no. :D

[SicEmBaylor]

Far be it from me to correct you. I was only a serving AF officer at the time. Later in an acquisition billet at WPAFB and worked two years right next to the F-117 SPO. WTF should I know?

I wasn't correcting you.

[Okla-homey]

Homey...

I worked with a guy that worked at Lockheed. I think he said the paint for those Stealth birds was like $22,000 a gallon. Any truth to that?

If your unable to answer...nod your head with a yes or no. :D

The stuff has anechoic properties and is ludicrously expensive. They also don't park those things out in the sunlight because that finish is very delicate.

[Okla-homey]

I wasn't correcting you.

it felt like it.

[1stTimeCaller]

how big did it feel?

[Okla-homey]

how big did it feel?

I felt violated.:(

[1stTimeCaller]

:D

[LoyalFan]

How much ARE tires for that thing anyway.

Think!

LF
We were sailing alonnnng, on Moonlight Bayyyyyy.

[afs]

I'd bet that having one shot down in Serbia or wherever a few years has something to do with the decision.

She was a great aircraft for us. I remember when my dad took me to go see it and a Patriot missile battery at the air show in OKC shortly after Desert Storm. I thought that was the coolest aircraft I had ever seen and was amazed that it was able to fly.
I just left Holloman AFB with 3 years directly supporting the F-117A, including 1 year as the Intel O' for the 8th Fighter Squadron (read shot down F-117A squadron). This all has to do with money. The Iraq War is bleeding the coffers dry as more money is diverted to supporting operations (rightfully so).

After 25 years of service, the plane is requiring more and more $$$ to keep flying. It was only intended for 10-15 years of use and the thing is just old. being that there are only 50 some odd F-117A in the fleet, there isn't a surplus of parts which = expensive parts when the weird ones break.

To top it off, nearly everyone at Holloman only supports the F-117A, so there are 3000-5000 person who are the only people qualified for the stealth which decreases the # of persons the USAF has to deploy to support on going ops.

$$$ is the name of the game, not a decrease in capabilities.

[1stTimeCaller]

I just left Holloman AFB with 3 years directly supporting the F-117A, including 1 year as the Intel O' for the 8th Fighter Squadron (read shot down F-117A squadron). This all has to do with money. The Iraq War is bleeding the coffers dry as more money is diverted to supporting operations (rightfully so).

After 25 years of service, the plane is requiring more and more $$$ to keep flying. It was only intended for 10-15 years of use and the thing is just old. being that there are only 50 some odd F-117A in the fleet, there isn't a surplus of parts which = expensive parts when the weird ones break.

To top it off, nearly everyone at Holloman only supports the F-117A, so there are 3000-5000 person who are the only people qualified for the stealth which decreases the # of persons the USAF has to deploy to support on going ops.

$$$ is the name of the game, not a decrease in capabilities.

Whatever d00d. Maybe you missed my qualifications: I saw the plane at an airshow one time. :D

I guess I have a small tinfoil hat.

[reevie]

But good news for Holloman, bye bye F-117. Hello F-22.

[slickdawg]

The F-117 is not a fighter, never has been, never will be. It's a light to medium bomber.

IMHO, The F-117 was nothing but pork from day one. The same can be said for the B-2. These planes are ludicrously expensive that require ultra-high maintenance. But some in the Air Force and at Lockheed had the "dream of a flying wing". And by God, they were going to make one no matter how much it cost and no matter how feasable it was.

So we end up with a "fighter" that can't sit in the sun and can't defend itself.

Now the F-22 appears to be the ultra-cool aircraft, but again, how much are the aircraft companies gouging us for?

B-52 BABY, WAY UP IN THE SKY, COME DROP YOUR LOVIN' ON ME CHILD!!!!!

[soonerjoker]

"dream of a flying wing", came from northrop.

i suppose they are now part of lockheed.

[Pricetag]

After 25 years of service, the plane is requiring more and more $$$ to keep flying.
The F-117 has been around for 25 years? Wow. I don't remember hearing much about it until 1990 or so.

[Okla-homey]

The F-117 has been around for 25 years? Wow. I don't remember hearing much about it until 1990 or so.

Much of its existence, it operated out of the mysterious air field at Indian Springs NV (a/k/a Area 51 among the tinfoil hat crowd)

I went out there in the 80's on official business and had to sign a monstrous non-disclosure agreement. It's all been cleared now of course.

BTW, the cool part was, most folks ho worked out there flew in from McCarron in LV aboard a contract fleet of 737's. The guys would go to work on Monday morning at 0-dark thirty and come home on Friday evening...as I recall.

[Ike]

The stuff has anechoic properties and is ludicrously expensive. They also don't park those things out in the sunlight because that finish is very delicate.

There is an interesting story about the discovery of stealth technology, that may or may not be true...but this is how it has been told to me by someone that I consider likely to know. Apparently, the underlying principles involved with stealth technology originated with a russian materials science paper. The ruskies had no clue what the implications of their paper could mean, obviously, because it was published in a fairly well respected journal. The jump from the phenomenon observed by the ruskies to steath technology was made by some US government scientists that read that paper. Interstingly, the original russian paper was then classified by the US government. Which meant that if you lived in America, you had to have clearance to read the paper. But if you lived anywhere else, you just had to go to the local library.


Again, this may all be a bunch of hogwash, but this thread made me think of it.

[Phil]

Much of its existence, it operated out of the mysterious air field at Indian Springs NV (a/k/a Area 51 among the tinfoil hat crowd)

I went out there in the 80's on official business and had to sign a monstrous non-disclosure agreement. It's all been cleared now of course.

BTW, the cool part was, most folks ho worked out there flew in from McCarron in LV aboard a contract fleet of 737's. The guys would go to work on Monday morning at 0-dark thirty and come home on Friday evening...as I recall.

A guy my little brother went to Test Pilot School with got transferred out there last year. Lives in Vegas and gets on the unmarked 737 every morning and comes home the same way every night.

On another note, the same little brother worked on one of the UAV projects mentioned in that article quoted above: J-UCAS. Also worked on Predator before transferring out to White Sands Missile Range a few months ago.

Cool thing about his new gig is that he can just get the keys to the Trinity Site and go out there whenever he wants. Did it over Thanksgiving, in fact. It's a several hour round trip, but it beats waiting for the two days a year when the place is open to the public. I'm gonna make him take me out there when we spend a few days at his place on the way to the Fiesta Bowl.

[Pricetag]

Much of its existence, it operated out of the mysterious air field at Indian Springs NV (a/k/a Area 51 among the tinfoil hat crowd)

I went out there in the 80's on official business and had to sign a monstrous non-disclosure agreement. It's all been cleared now of course.

BTW, the cool part was, most folks ho worked out there flew in from McCarron in LV aboard a contract fleet of 737's. The guys would go to work on Monday morning at 0-dark thirty and come home on Friday evening...as I recall.
I feel cheated. As cool as I thought it was in high school, I would have thought it was even cooler as a younger kid.

[SicEmBaylor]

There is an interesting story about the discovery of stealth technology, that may or may not be true...but this is how it has been told to me by someone that I consider likely to know. Apparently, the underlying principles involved with stealth technology originated with a russian materials science paper. The ruskies had no clue what the implications of their paper could mean, obviously, because it was published in a fairly well respected journal. The jump from the phenomenon observed by the ruskies to steath technology was made by some US government scientists that read that paper. Interstingly, the original russian paper was then classified by the US government. Which meant that if you lived in America, you had to have clearance to read the paper. But if you lived anywhere else, you just had to go to the local library.


Again, this may all be a bunch of hogwash, but this thread made me think of it.

I've heard that story as well. Especially the part about the Russians classifing their own stuff, but being able to find it in any library in the US and vice versa.

[afs]

There is an interesting story about the discovery of stealth technology, that may or may not be true...but this is how it has been told to me by someone that I consider likely to know. Apparently, the underlying principles involved with stealth technology originated with a russian materials science paper. The ruskies had no clue what the implications of their paper could mean, obviously, because it was published in a fairly well respected journal. The jump from the phenomenon observed by the ruskies to steath technology was made by some US government scientists that read that paper. Interstingly, the original russian paper was then classified by the US government. Which meant that if you lived in America, you had to have clearance to read the paper. But if you lived anywhere else, you just had to go to the local library.


Again, this may all be a bunch of hogwash, but this thread made me think of it.

true.

it was a paper regarding Radar Cross Section and shapes. A Russian mathmetician developed the idea that you could reduce reflectable surface area if you had a shape in the form of a diamond. The russians didn't have the techonology to design or test these theories from the 40s and put the document on the shelf.

along comes the US, Kelly Johnson and Denys Overholser, they find the paper and have the ambition to make it work.

not sure about the truth concerning classification of the russian documents.

[afs]

The F-117 has been around for 25 years? Wow. I don't remember hearing much about it until 1990 or so.

Yep, Holloman celebrated the 25th anniversary this october and the 250,000 flying hour of the fleet. I've got some cool pictures of 25 F-117As in a flyby on base that i'll find.

[afs]

The F-117 is not a fighter, never has been, never will be. It's a light to medium bomber.

IMHO, The F-117 was nothing but pork from day one. The same can be said for the B-2. These planes are ludicrously expensive that require ultra-high maintenance. But some in the Air Force and at Lockheed had the "dream of a flying wing". And by God, they were going to make one no matter how much it cost and no matter how feasable it was.

So we end up with a "fighter" that can't sit in the sun and can't defend itself.

Now the F-22 appears to be the ultra-cool aircraft, but again, how much are the aircraft companies gouging us for?

B-52 BABY, WAY UP IN THE SKY, COME DROP YOUR LOVIN' ON ME CHILD!!!!!

The F-117 and B-2 have done things in Gulf War I, Operation Allied Force, and Operation Iraqi Freedom that other USAF planes physicall cannot do without being removed from the sky. Besides with the F-117, it you want pinpoint accuracy, nothing beats a pilot overtop the target with a laser. GPS is good but not that good.

[reevie]

"dream of a flying wing", came from northrop.

i suppose they are now part of lockheed.


Nope, that sale didn't go through. Northrop is still it's own company.

[reevie]

The F-117 and B-2 have done things in Gulf War I, Operation Allied Force, and Operation Iraqi Freedom that other USAF planes physicall cannot do without being removed from the sky. Besides with the F-117, it you want pinpoint accuracy, nothing beats a pilot overtop the target with a laser. GPS is good but not that good.


The B-2 didn't play in Desert Storm.

[1stTimeCaller]

you sure that you're not thinking about the B-1 not playing?

I heard that their pilots were to skeered to fly over Iraq. ;)

or that the conversion from nuke only to conventional munitions hadn't been completed.

[reevie]

The F-117 is not a fighter, never has been, never will be. It's a light to medium bomber.

IMHO, The F-117 was nothing but pork from day one. The same can be said for the B-2. These planes are ludicrously expensive that require ultra-high maintenance. But some in the Air Force and at Lockheed had the "dream of a flying wing". And by God, they were going to make one no matter how much it cost and no matter how feasable it was.

So we end up with a "fighter" that can't sit in the sun and can't defend itself.

Now the F-22 appears to be the ultra-cool aircraft, but again, how much are the aircraft companies gouging us for?

B-52 BABY, WAY UP IN THE SKY, COME DROP YOUR LOVIN' ON ME CHILD!!!!!


The big reason the B-2 is so expensive is because the government cut the order from 132 to 21 jets, without a change in the R&D cost. Same thing has happened with the F-22. Ten years ago the order was for over 700, then 432 and today it's like 380. It's not that the companies are gouging the government, it's more like the government keeps changing it mind.

In terms of pork, the good ole USA got an exception bomber in the B-2 (unlike the B-1), but I can't speak for the F-117's quality.

[soonerjoker]

i worked for north american aviation (swallowed up by rockwell) when the order
for the B-70(triple sonic bomber) was cut from 3 to 2.

original order was 36, but bobby McNamara cut it to 3.

[mrowl]

what happens to the pilots and crews that were trained on the F-117? Will they be transfered to another type?

[1stTimeCaller]

they're gonna be flying rubber dog **** from Hong Kong

[mrowl]

http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Top_Gun_NES_ScreenShot2.jpg

[Okla-homey]

i worked for north american aviation (swallowed up by rockwell) when the order
for the B-70(triple sonic bomber) was cut from 3 to 2.

original order was 36, but bobby McNamara cut it to 3.

That Valkyrie was one cool motorscooter. If we'd have built 'em, Ivan would have had fits trying to develop his air defense system to stop 'em. FWIW, the MiG-25 "Foxbat" was the bird they developed to counter it. We fooled 'em!

If memory serves, McNamara decided the hypersonic "Skybolt" AGM carried by BUFF's in underwing pods was a better choice.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5563/ppppppppppppppxb70pn2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
B-70

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/4583/skyboltef2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Skybolts (two on each wingroot)...I believe they were the largest air-to-ground missiles ever built. Mach 4 and carried the equivalent of a Titan warhead in the 20 megaton range.

[1stTimeCaller]

That Valkyrie was one cool motorscooter. If we'd have built 'em, Ivan would have had fits trying to develop his air defense system to stop 'em. FWIW, the MiG-25 "Foxbat" was the bird they developed to counter it. We fooled 'em!

If memory serves, McNamara decided the hypersonic "Skybolt" AGM carried by BUFF's in underwing pods was a better choice.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5563/ppppppppppppppxb70pn2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
B-70

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/4583/skyboltef2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Skybolts (two on each wingroot)...I believe they were the largest air-to-ground missiles ever built. Mach 4 and carried the equivalent of a Titan warhead in the 20 megaton range.

That's not what SicEm told me. ;)

[reevie]

you sure that you're not thinking about the B-1 not playing?

I heard that their pilots were to skeered to fly over Iraq. ;)

or that the conversion from nuke only to conventional munitions hadn't been completed.


The B-1 also did not play in Desert Storm because of that conventional conversion wasn't complete. So they couldn't drop bombs.

There wasn't enough B-2 built in 1991. They were still in test (first flight was 1989).

[reevie]

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5563/ppppppppppppppxb70pn2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
B-70



The one on display at Dayton doesn't seem that big

[afs]

The B-2 didn't play in Desert Storm.

correct. it was called a generalization in the paragraph.

as for the F-117A pilots, if they are young enough they'll get to go back to their original airframe. all F-117 pilots must have at least 500 hours in another fighter aircraft beore transitioning (F-18,15,E,A-10,18,14).

For the older pilots (middle majors and up), they might get to move back or more likely they will transition to white jets or possible enter the UAV field, or simply go fill staff jobs from now to eternity.