Top Evangelical Minister Resigns Admist Gay Hooker Sex Scandal

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227159,00.html

I IN NO WAY HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE AS TO THE VALIDITY OF THIS STORY. SO AS NOT TO OFFEND THE TENDER SENSIBILITIES OF THE FINE RESIDENTS OF THE SOUTH OVAL I WILL OFFER UP NO VALUE JUDGMENT ON THIS STORY. READ IT AND EVALUATE IT FOR YOURSELF. PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR ANY EARLIER INSINUATION THAT THE INDIVIDUAL ACCUSED OF SAID ACTS IS ACTUALLY GUILTY OF SAID ACTS. I WILL BE SETTING UP A THREAD IN WHICH WE CAN ALL TALK ABOUT OUR FEELINGS AND HOW THEY'VE BEEN HURT DUE TO THE HEINOUS NATURE OF MY POSTING TECHNIQUES.

[Mjcpr]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38691000/jpg/_38691859_swaggart238.jpg

[birddog]

i do caters at that dude's house twice a week.

[NormanPride]

How many people here watch religious shows on TV? How many people here watch religious services on Sunday rather than going to church? I'm not implying anything, I'm just curious.

[C&CDean]

i do caters at that dude's house twice a week. what a jerk he is.

So, the gay sex rumors are true then?

[birddog]

i'm gonna run over you with my huge tacoma truck.:mad:

[handcrafted]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227159,00.html

Dontcha just love the hypocrisy?

I for one hate hypocrisy.

So does Jesus.

JM, when you stop being a sinner yourself, let us know, mmkay?

[yermom]

i do caters at that dude's house twice a week. what a jerk he is.

he probably doesn't even share his meth ;)


IBTT

[Chuck Bao]

I can just imagine that he was asking for it.

[handcrafted]

BTW the guy categorically denies the relationship, so this may be a case of this homo-ho wanting some money or national attention, or maybe he has the hots for this minister and is ****ed that he can't have him.

I've noticed that homos often act like women when they get jilted.

[Mjcpr]

Or it could be completely true.

[yermom]

I for one hate hypocrisy.

So does Jesus.

JM, when you stop being a sinner yourself, let us know, mmkay?

if he was just a sinner, this wouldn't be much of a story

[fadada1]

http://img285.imageshack.us/img285/8021/babyjesus3oitc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[toast]

what if the male hooker ended up being his half-brother?

[Okla-homey]

How could he be a "top" evangelical minister if I've been an evangelical d00d all my life and never heard of him? He's obviously a poser.

[yermom]

BTW the guy categorically denies the relationship, so this may be a case of this homo-ho wanting some money or national attention, or maybe he has the hots for this minister and is ****ed that he can't have him.

I've noticed that homos often act like women when they get jilted.

ok, maybe he just buys meth from him, that could be the true part (he admits some of it is true)

that would be pretty funny, actually. the gay escort drug dealer gets ****ed that one of his drug-only customers is speaking out against gay marriage

so then he alleges that every time they met for drugs, it's been for sex too. money changed hands and it's not like they kept records for what he was paying for. it's drug dealer escort's word against the preacher's. either way he has to explain that he was buying drugs

[handcrafted]

if he was just a sinner, this wouldn't be much of a story

Okay, help me out here, I want a groupthink on this.

What I hear yermom and JM saying is this: unless you are perfect, you cannot say a certain activity is wrong or sinful.

This is the fallacy of ad hominen tu quoque. Otherwise known as the "you did it too" fallacy. Problem with that is, when Christians say something is wrong or sinful, they are not coming up with that on their own. They are reporting what God says about the subject, and God is perfectly good and holy, therefore infallible. The character of the person speaking is irrelevant to the truth of the proposition.

[C&CDean]

If dude was squeaky clean, he wouldn't have quit. Probably got himself a couple fag hummers. Seems to be all the craze with the preachers these days.

[fadada1]

i get about 4 "Jesus TV" channels on my cable package. they're not good. i'll stop every now and then (for about 3 seconds)... they scare me a bit.

[handcrafted]

Which is preferable? A murderer who says "murder is wrong?" Or a murderer who says "I shot that dude in the face because I didn't like him, and I'm proud of it"?

[SoonerInKCMO]

How could he be a "top" evangelical minister if I've been an evangelical d00d all my life and never heard of him? He's obviously a poser.

You've never heard of the president of the National Association of Evangelicals?

[yermom]

Okay, help me out here, I want a groupthink on this.

What I hear yermom and JM saying is this: unless you are perfect, you cannot say a certain activity is wrong or sinful.

This is the fallacy of ad hominen tu quoque. Otherwise known as the "you did it too" fallacy. Problem with that is, when Christians say something is wrong or sinful, they are not coming up with that on their own. They are reporting what God says about the subject, and God is perfectly good and holy, therefore infallible. The character of the person speaking is irrelevant to the truth of the proposition.


i'm not condoning meth laden gay sex because someone else is doing it.

you don't see the irony in a preacher that openly speaks against gays actually being gay?

i mean not just speaking out against gays, but pushing things politically

[Okla-homey]

You've never heard of the president of the National Association of Evangelicals?

Nope.

[SoonerInKCMO]

What I hear yermom and JM saying is this: unless you are perfect, you cannot say a certain activity is wrong or sinful.


What I hear them saying is that if you're going to lead a national association of 30 million people who have as one of their core beliefs that homosexual activity is wrong then you shouldn't **** dudes.

[handcrafted]

If dude was squeaky clean, he wouldn't have quit. Probably got himself a couple fag hummers. Seems to be all the craze with the preachers these days.

You assume too much, Dean. Ministers often resign if a scandal hits their church even if they were not involved, so as to minimize the effects and not bring reproach on the church. Just like sometimes the Captain of a navy ship gets canned when one of his crew does something tragically stupid.

The minister is responsible for the integrity of his church, and if that integrity is compromised, even falsely, sometimes it's better to get out of the way so you don't make a spectacle of yourself.

[Okla-homey]

If dude was squeaky clean, he wouldn't have quit. Probably got himself a couple fag hummers. Seems to be all the craze with the preachers these days.

Bottomline: People who live in glass houses shouldn't sling rocks (of crystal meth)

[birddog]

he's admitted to some "indiscretions" already. they'll report more today.

[yermom]

Which is preferable? A murderer who says "murder is wrong?" Or a murderer who says "I shot that dude in the face because I didn't like him, and I'm proud of it"?

what if said murderer is STILL killing people while he's saying it's wrong?

[yermom]

What I hear them saying is that if you're going to lead a national association of 30 million people who have as one of their core beliefs that homosexual activity is wrong then you shouldn't **** dudes.

yeah, cause gay dudes are like bitches, and will take you down :D

[birddog]

Nope.


you've heard of him now.

[handcrafted]

What I hear them saying is that if you're going to lead a national association of 30 million people who have as one of their core beliefs that homosexual activity is wrong then you shouldn't **** dudes.

Yes, very true. I was not implying that the guy should not be held to a higher standard. What I am saying is, that we are all hypocrites. All of us say certain things are wrong that we do ourselves, even if unintentionally.

It's wrong for me to take out my bad day on my family by yelling at them and sulking in the computer room. I have done it in the past. I will try not to do it in the future. But I might have a moment of weakness. None of that changes the fact that the behavior is wrong.

[handcrafted]

what if said murderer is STILL killing people while he's saying it's wrong?

That does not change the objective truth of the statment "murder is wrong".

[handcrafted]

Be sad for this guy. I am. I'm sad for the church.

But those of you throwing around the "hypocrite" label better look at your own lives.

[C&CDean]

You assume too much, Dean. Ministers often resign if a scandal hits their church even if they were not involved, so as to minimize the effects and not bring reproach on the church. Just like sometimes the Captain of a navy ship gets canned when one of his crew does something tragically stupid.

The minister is responsible for the integrity of his church, and if that integrity is compromised, even falsely, sometimes it's better to get out of the way so you don't make a spectacle of yourself.

Dude, give it up. Other than Billy Graham, you show me one "big-time preacher" who hasn't screwed the pooch. Or the neighbor's son. Or his best friend's wife. Or who hasn't embezzled $$.

I'm a God fearin' man, but I have zero tolerance for people who spend their entire life "answering their calling" to be a preacher, preach the gospel, then violate half of the gospel they're preaching, then go "dudes, I'm human, so I sinned..."

If preacherman gets a speeding ticket I can understand. Makes an honest mistake on his taxes? No prob. But when you're out BUTT****ING hookers while preaching against BUTT****ING hookers don't you think all credibility goes out the window?

Yes, preachers are humans. I'm a human. I believe BUTT****ING men hookers is wrong. And I don't go around BUTT****ING men hookers. So quit defending/making excuses for dude. He's a POS.

[birddog]

Be sad for this guy. I am. I'm sad for the church.

But those of you throwing around the "hypocrite" label better look at your own lives.

they sure don't have a problem casting stones at homos.

i've never heard them say they feel sorry for them. they just condemn them.

[crawfish]

Why is he a hypocrite? I don't think he ever intended to marry his male escort. :D

However, the timing and this statement:


"I just want people to step back and take a look and say, 'Look, we're all sinners, we all have faults, but if two people want to get married, just let them, and let them have a happy life,'" said Jones, who added that he is gay and is not working for any political group.

...make me a bit leery of the accusations. It seems to me there are DEFINITE political motivations.

I also don't see why people who claim to be "sinful people who make mistakes but have accepted God's grace" can be called hypocrites when they make mistakes.

[handcrafted]

Dude, give it up. Other than Billy Graham, you show me one "big-time preacher" who hasn't screwed the pooch. Or the neighbor's son. Or his best friend's wife. Or who hasn't embezzled $$.

I'm a God fearin' man, but I have zero tolerance for people who spend their entire life "answering their calling" to be a preacher, preach the gospel, then violate half of the gospel they're preaching, then go "dudes, I'm human, so I sinned..."

If preacherman gets a speeding ticket I can understand. Makes an honest mistake on his taxes? No prob. But when you're out BUTT****ING hookers while preaching against BUTT****ING hookers don't you think all credibility goes out the window?

Yes, preachers are humans. I'm a human. I believe BUTT****ING men hookers is wrong. And I don't go around BUTT****ING men hookers. So quit defending/making excuses for dude. He's a POS.

Yeah, and many of the people God used in the Bible to preach his word were not pillars of morality either. Look at Jacob and King David, for example. Jacob was a con man and David stole another man's wife and then had him killed. God uses sinners for his purposes. He has to, because that's all He has to work with.

Dean, when you quit being a POS like the rest of us, let us know.

[mdklatt]

I've noticed that homos often act like women when they get jilted.


Hmmmm....

[jk the sooner fan]

for any christian to defend this guy in any way shape or form is a bad idea

praying for him is one thing, defending his actions is another

[Mjcpr]

3 pages

[crawfish]

Dude, give it up. Other than Billy Graham, you show me one "big-time preacher" who hasn't screwed the pooch. Or the neighbor's son. Or his best friend's wife. Or who hasn't embezzled $$.

I'm a God fearin' man, but I have zero tolerance for people who spend their entire life "answering their calling" to be a preacher, preach the gospel, then violate half of the gospel they're preaching, then go "dudes, I'm human, so I sinned..."

If preacherman gets a speeding ticket I can understand. Makes an honest mistake on his taxes? No prob. But when you're out BUTT****ING hookers while preaching against BUTT****ING hookers don't you think all credibility goes out the window?

Yes, preachers are humans. I'm a human. I believe BUTT****ING men hookers is wrong. And I don't go around BUTT****ING men hookers. So quit defending/making excuses for dude. He's a POS.

I don't know much about Rick Warren personally, but I do know he reverse-tithes (donates 90% of his income), doesn't accept a salary from his church and is heavily involved with "aids in Africa" relief, yet his good works are virtually ignored by the secular world. THAT is hypocrisy, my friend.

[handcrafted]

they sure don't have a problem casting stones at homos.

i've never heard them say they feel sorry for them. they just condemn them.

I feel sorry for homos. I feel sorry for anyone who is living in open rebellion against God. And that goes for all you silly atheist types on this board, too. It just makes me sad.

[crawfish]

3 pages

That's what Mark Foley said.

[handcrafted]

for any christian to defend this guy in any way shape or form is a bad idea

praying for him is one thing, defending his actions is another

Not defending his actions (if the accusations are true). I never said his actions were okay.

[birddog]

you atheists? i sure hope that wasn't aimed at me.

[jk the sooner fan]

ok, scratch defending his actions

any defense of him in any way, bad idea

you have to just call it what it is......there's nothing wrong in doing that.....the kink in the armor is already there, you cant hide it with spin

[C&CDean]

Yeah, and many of the people God used in the Bible to preach his word were not pillars of morality either. Look at Jacob and King David, for example. Jacob was a con man and David stole another man's wife and then had him killed. God uses sinners for his purposes. He has to, because that's all He has to work with.

Dean, when you quit being a POS like the rest of us, let us know.

You're pretty much out there, aren't you? Let me put it in non-religious terms so you might understand. You own Corvettes. You work at a Chevy dealership selling Corvettes. You become a very rich, famous Corvette dealer. You spend all your time preaching about the value of driving a Corvette. You preach about how terrible Dodge Vipers, Ford GTs, and Porsches are. They are the debbil. Then, it's discovered you have a whole garage full of Mustangs, Vipers, and Porsches that you're driving on the side.

Hypocritical? Liar? POS? I'm thinking yes.

And please do not lump me in with BUTT****ING preachers again. I'm a POS, but I ain't one of those POS.

[Mjcpr]

And that goes for all you silly atheist types on this board, too. It just makes me sad.

I think you have your hands full with the evangeli-mo argument at this time. :D

[C&CDean]

I don't know much about Rick Warren personally, but I do know he reverse-tithes (donates 90% of his income), doesn't accept a salary from his church and is heavily involved with "aids in Africa" relief, yet his good works are virtually ignored by the secular world. THAT is hypocrisy, my friend.

Ah, so he's one of those who thinks he's gonna buy his way into heaven. Cool.

[crawfish]

You're pretty much out there, aren't you? Let me put it in non-religious terms so you might understand. You own Corvettes. You work at a Chevy dealership selling Corvettes. You become a very rich, famous Corvette dealer. You spend all your time preaching about the value of driving a Corvette. You preach about how terrible Dodge Vipers, Ford GTs, and Porsches are. They are the debbil. Then, it's discovered you have a whole garage full of Mustangs, Vipers, and Porsches that you're driving on the side.

Hypocritical? Liar? POS? I'm thinking yes.

And please do not lump me in with BUTT****ING preachers again. I'm a POS, but I ain't one of those POS.

Good to know you've been listening to so many of the guy's sermons, Dean. I was unsure exactly what he was teaching. ;)

[mdklatt]

I also don't see why people who claim to be "sinful people who make mistakes but have accepted God's grace" can be called hypocrites when they make mistakes.

There are some "mistakes" that are easy to make, and some that require some effort. We're talking about sex here, not accidentally uttering a four-letter word when you hit your thumb with a hammer. It's really easy to not have sex if you don't want to.

[jk the sooner fan]

It's really east to not have sex if you don't want to.

thats not entirely true

[crawfish]

Ah, so he's one of those who thinks he's gonna buy his way into heaven. Cool.

You save a lot of time when you don't sweat the research before your judging, huh? :)

You would seem to be of those hypocrites who spouts off their mouth without knowing what the heck they're talking about. But at least you ain't a preacher.

[yermom]

I feel sorry for homos. I feel sorry for anyone who is living in open rebellion against God. And that goes for all you silly atheist types on this board, too. It just makes me sad.

believe me, i feel sorry for you too

[C&CDean]

Good to know you've been listening to so many of the guy's sermons, Dean. I was unsure exactly what he was teaching. ;)
Heh. But you're a churchgoer. I spent my entire life up until my late teen years being forcefed the "truth" too. Typically, they cover something between Genesis and Revelations, right? Right. So I'm thinking I've probably heard everything he's teaching - maybe a brazillion times. You have too. Of course neither of us have heard his exact spin on the book, but I think we've both pretty much heard it all spun all the ways it can be spun. No?

[olevetonahill]

Dude, give it up. Other than Billy Graham, you show me one "big-time preacher" who hasn't screwed the pooch. Or the neighbor's son. Or his best friend's wife. Or who hasn't embezzled $$.

I'm a God fearin' man, but I have zero tolerance for people who spend their entire life "answering their calling" to be a preacher, preach the gospel, then violate half of the gospel they're preaching, then go "dudes, I'm human, so I sinned..."

If preacherman gets a speeding ticket I can understand. Makes an honest mistake on his taxes? No prob. But when you're out BUTT****ING hookers while preaching against BUTT****ING hookers don't you think all credibility goes out the window?

Yes, preachers are humans. I'm a human. I believe BUTT****ING men hookers is wrong. And I don't go around BUTT****ING men hookers. So quit defending/making excuses for dude. He's a POS.

So BUTT****ING female hookers is ok ?
Cool had me skeered for a minute :eek:

[mdklatt]

thats not entirely true

Oh no, my clothes accidentally came off and I slipped and fell into a naked gay man!

[C&CDean]

You save a lot of time when you don't sweat the research before your judging, huh? :)

You would seem to be of those hypocrites who spouts off their mouth without knowing what the heck they're talking about. But at least you ain't a preacher.

Dude, you did the research for me. You're the one with the lowdown, I'm just making commentary. And for the record, when I see "Preacher X is donating all his earning to charity" I always think "yeah, right." Especially when he's riding in a limo up to his mansion on the hill.

[Mjcpr]

Did I say 3? I meant 5 pages.

[C&CDean]

5? pffft. I'll call your 5 and raise you 7.

[crawfish]

There are some "mistakes" that are easy to make, and some that require some effort. We're talking about sex here, not accidentally uttering a four-letter word when you hit your thumb with a hammer. It's really east to not have sex if you don't want to.

Shhh...the liberal left is saying the exact opposite thing, especially to our kids.

After reading the article again, I think it's entirely possible he was buying meth from the guy and not having sex with him. The evidence the gay guy is claiming to have would indicate that is a possibility.

[C&CDean]

Shhh...the liberal left is saying the exact opposite thing, especially to our kids.

After reading the article again, I think it's entirely possible he was buying meth from the guy and not having sex with him. The evidence the gay guy is claiming to have would indicate that is a possibility.

Oooh. I feel better about him now. He's just a tweaker, not a fag. Whew.

[Fugue]

Okay, help me out here, I want a groupthink on this.

What I hear yermom and JM saying is this: unless you are perfect, you cannot say a certain activity is wrong or sinful.

This is the fallacy of ad hominen tu quoque. Otherwise known as the "you did it too" fallacy. Problem with that is, when Christians say something is wrong or sinful, they are not coming up with that on their own. They are reporting what God says about the subject, and God is perfectly good and holy, therefore infallible. The character of the person speaking is irrelevant to the truth of the proposition.

I had some of that crap for lunch yesterday. Nasty, veddy bahd. :cool:

[yermom]

Shhh...the liberal left is saying the exact opposite thing, especially to our kids.

After reading the article again, I think it's entirely possible he was buying meth from the guy and not having sex with him. The evidence the gay guy is claiming to have would indicate that is a possibility.

this would be The Yermom Scenario™

[olevetonahill]

Oooh. I feel better about him now. He's just a tweaker, not a fag. Whew.
But wont most tweakers butt **** any crack ?

[crawfish]

Dude, you did the research for me. You're the one with the lowdown, I'm just making commentary. And for the record, when I see "Preacher X is donating all his earning to charity" I always think "yeah, right." Especially when he's riding in a limo up to his mansion on the hill.

I don't remember saying anything about a limo or a mansion. :confused:

When I was a kid, a guy told me that hunting sucked and hunters were all idiots. So I don't go hunting because it sucks and I'm not an idiot. I'm also very proud of myself for not stereotyping. ;)

[crawfish]

Did I say 3? I meant 5 pages.

Mark Foley said that, too!

[crawfish]

Oooh. I feel better about him now. He's just a tweaker, not a fag. Whew.

Errr...I thought your point was he was a hypocrite, not a fag. My mistake.

[crawfish]

FOUR IN A ROW, BABY!!!

[NormanPride]

Connect Four, beyonce!

[Mjcpr]

FOUR IN A ROW, BABY!!!

You will soon be hearing from BRJ's attorney.

[Widescreen]

I think it's too early to defend or condemn him - seeing as how nothing's been proven yet.

Here's my take: If he did the whole gay thing, he should never be allowed to preach again as there are lines you can't cross in various professions and still continue in that profession. If he did the meth thing, he should pay the same legal penalty that anyone else should (which in today's legal system is probably a $20 fine and a stern lecture by the judge :rolleyes:).

Dean, you seem to have a lot of hostility toward preachers - not just in this thread but in a bunch of other religion-oriented threads. In one instance you said you don't go to church because they're ALL filled with hypocrites. Maybe that's because they're all filled with people. Most of the time when I hear people say stuff like that it's more because they don't want to make the effort to find the right church for them and would rather go out hunting on Sunday. I'm a member of a church with a "big-time preacher" who is in his 70's and has never done any of the things all "big-time preachers" supposedly have done. Interestingly, our sermon last Sunday was about homosexuality (which is something he almost never brings up). He was very adamant that we have no business telling sinners of any stripe that God hates them. That makes us just as guilty because it's a flat out lie. He said something like "People generally don't come to the gospel and truth by being told that they're evil and God hates them." I guess I'm not seeing the hypocrisy coming from our pulpit. And it's not just my church - there are a lot of them out there but it may require more effort than an "all churches are led by hypocrites" pronouncement.

[fadada1]

what's worse - a catholic priest loving him some pre-pubescent, silky skinned alter boy - or - jed the snake charming televangelist getting some steamy prison man love????

a question that will haunt mankind for ages....

[royalfan5]

If everyone were LCMS, the world would be a better place. Just sayin.

[Boarder]

I want to chime in that I had never heard of him either.

Not that it matters or anything.

[Oldnslo]

Yes, very true. I was not implying that the guy should not be held to a higher standard. What I am saying is, that we are all hypocrites. All of us say certain things are wrong that we do ourselves, even if unintentionally.

It's wrong for me to take out my bad day on my family by yelling at them and sulking in the computer room. I have done it in the past. I will try not to do it in the future. But I might have a moment of weakness. None of that changes the fact that the behavior is wrong.
My moment of weakness, which, I can assure you, does not include homoerotica in any form, does not have any relationship with another's moment of weakness.

Stealing from a thief is still stealing. And homo's "out" one another all the time.

It's a funny world, isn't it?

[crawfish]

I want to chime in that I had never heard of him either.

Not that it matters or anything.

Actually, I've seem him twice - both were secular propaganda pieces talking about the dangers of faith & religion. They interviewed him as a representative of Christian faith.

There's probably a reason he was chosen. :)

[JohnnyMack]

Okay, help me out here, I want a groupthink on this.

What I hear yermom and JM saying is this: unless you are perfect, you cannot say a certain activity is wrong or sinful.

This is the fallacy of ad hominen tu quoque. Otherwise known as the "you did it too" fallacy. Problem with that is, when Christians say something is wrong or sinful, they are not coming up with that on their own. They are reporting what God says about the subject, and God is perfectly good and holy, therefore infallible. The character of the person speaking is irrelevant to the truth of the proposition.

I didn't say that. I said I thought it was funny that a guy who has made a career out of telling people that being a homo is bad, is in fact a homo.

And Yermom is just a hippie. We don't take him all that seriously. :P

[crawfish]

I didn't say that. I said I thought it was funny that a guy who has made a career out of telling people that being a homo is bad, is in fact a homo.

And Yermom is just a hippie. We don't take him all that seriously. :P

Do you know exactly what he said? Can you be sure, based on the article, that he is, in fact, a homosexual? Can you use as many commas in a sentence as I can?

[Widescreen]

Guess who?

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/5484/campow0.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE

[crawfish]

Darren Stephens?

[mdklatt]

Shhh...the liberal left is saying the exact opposite thing, especially to our kids.



Not exactly...my key phrase was if you don't want to. The libz argument is that teenagers are going to really want to no matter how many times you tell them they're going to burn in hell (that's how God made us, after all), so you'd better make sure they know what a condom is.

[jk the sooner fan]

so none of the allegations have been proven huh?

[yermom]

Do you know exactly what he said? Can you be sure, based on the article, that he is, in fact, a homosexual? Can you use as many commas in a sentence as I can?


i'll let JK chime in on if he is a homo ;)


i don't really care if someone is a buggering meth addict, but the idea that this guy is is pretty funny

makes you question the motives of all the people so opposed to gay marriage, etc...

of course, that is all assuming that The Yermom Scenario™ isn't true

[jk the sooner fan]

i have no idea if he is or isnt

but isnt it hypocritical for the left to believe the allegations before they're proven true or false? i thought the left was the side for "innocent until proven guilty"

[royalfan5]

i'll let JK chime in on if he is a homo ;)


i don't really care if someone is a buggering meth addict, but the idea that this guy is is pretty funny

makes you question the motives of all the people so opposed to gay marriage, etc...

of course, that is all assuming that The Yermom Scenario™ isn't true
So your saying that people opposed to gay marriage are just afraid there will be a smaller supply of gay hookers if gay marriage is legal?

[yermom]

i have no idea if he is or isnt

but isnt it hypocritical for the left to believe the allegations before they're proven true or false? i thought the left was the side for "innocent until proven guilty"


none of that matters in the news :P

[yermom]

So your saying that people opposed to gay marriage are just afraid there will be a smaller supply of gay hookers if gay marriage is legal?

that or they are overcompensating for all the gay sex they are having ;)

[crawfish]

Not exactly...my key phrase was if you don't want to. The libz argument is that teenagers are going to really want to no matter how many times you tell them they're going to burn in hell (that's how God made us, after all), so you'd better make sure they know what a condom is.

Wrong. The argument is that even if kids don't want to, their hormones are going to kick in, or they're going to feel peer pressure, and they're going to have sex anyway, so we need to make sure they have condoms.

For the record, I'm not defending this guy. I have been less than impressed with what I've heard him say when I've heard him (which is very little, to be sure), and I'm guessing at the very least he's a drug addict. I do think the accusation is political in nature, and he could even have been set up. I think it's a good thing he quit and he should not be publicly involved in the church's operations any longer. I believe he still has God's grace and is forgiven.

Where there is money and power, there will be corruption. Doesn't matter if it's in the church, government, business or neighborhood association. Christians are just people and subject to the same things as all other people.

[JohnnyMack]

i have no idea if he is or isnt

but isnt it hypocritical for the left to believe the allegations before they're proven true or false? i thought the left was the side for "innocent until proven guilty"

This isn't some agenda driven rant on my part d00d. It was just ironic and funny. Did you forget your sense-of-humor pills again?

It would be just as funny if the President of PETA was busted plowing through a stack of Quarter Pounders.

[mdklatt]

makes you question the motives of all the people so opposed to gay marriage, etc...


I wonder if the people who make the biggest fuss about homosexuality being a sin are trying to convince themselves of that more than anyone else.

It's like the people who claim that there can be no morality without religion. Maybe that's true for them, and they just assume that everybody else has the same uncontrollable impulses. If that's the case, I'm glad we have religion to keep the people in line that need to be kept in line.

[Widescreen]

I wonder if the people who make the biggest fuss about homosexuality being a sin are trying to convince themselves of that more than anyone else.
Is God included in that - He seemed to make a pretty big fuss about it? Although He's not a person, per se. ;)

[crawfish]

makes you question the motives of all the people so opposed to gay marriage, etc...

Does Cindy Sheehan make you question the motives of all the people opposed to the war?

Does Madalyn Murray O'Hare make you question the motives of all the people opposed to religion?

[mdklatt]

Wrong. The argument is that even if kids don't want to, their hormones are going to kick in, or they're going to feel peer pressure, and they're going to have sex anyway, so we need to make sure they have condoms.


The only way to have sex is if you want to. It's ridiculously easy to not have sex. It requires literally no effort.

[mdklatt]

Is God included in that - He seemed to make a pretty big fuss about it? Although He's not a person, per se. ;)

Did he really make that big a fuss about it? It's not even a commandment.

[85Sooner]

Drudge reporting that the accuser failed polygraph exam. If he is lying he should be thrown to the pervs in prison for a decade or so.

[yermom]

Does Cindy Sheehan make you question the motives of all the people opposed to the war?

Does Madalyn Murray O'Hare make you question the motives of all the people opposed to religion?


Cindy Sheehan may be crazy and an attention whore, but that isn't quite the same thing. last i heard she wasn't off starting wars or something either ;)

and i have no idea who the other beyonce is, but i'd bet she isn't coming out against religion and then starting churches on the side

[crawfish]

The only way to have sex is if you want to. It's ridiculously easy to not have sex. It requires literally no effort.

Thousands of rape victims might disagree with you. :)

Why are you arguing with me, anyway? I agree with you. It's the extreme left that think's you're wrong. :D

[picasso]

Not exactly...my key phrase was if you don't want to. The libz argument is that teenagers are going to really want to no matter how many times you tell them they're going to burn in hell (that's how God made us, after all), so you'd better make sure they know what a condom is.
the difference is that when I was in junior high back in the early 80's, a kiss and dry hump was a big thing. now kids are bonking like crazy.

how you figure that Jack?

[jk the sooner fan]

This isn't some agenda driven rant on my part d00d. It was just ironic and funny. Did you forget your sense-of-humor pills again?

It would be just as funny if the President of PETA was busted plowing through a stack of Quarter Pounders.

but you labeled him a hypocrite without both sides of the story, or any proven facts

so its sorta like you being the president of PETA and plowing thru a stack of quarter pounders

[jk the sooner fan]

The only way to have sex is if you want to. It's ridiculously easy to not have sex. It requires literally no effort.

you're wrong

we are wired sexually, and i would submit to you that those who are crosswired (the guys who like 3 year old thai boys) have little to no control over their impulses......its not ridiculously easy for the deviant.....and it literally requires a mountain of effort

[mdklatt]

Thousands of rape victims might disagree with you. :)


I'm not including that in this particular definition of sex.




Why are you arguing with me, anyway? I agree with you. It's the extreme left that think's you're wrong. :D

Link? I don't think that's the libz argument at all. "They're going to do it anyway" means because they want to, not because they don't have a choice.

[JohnnyMack]

but you labeled him a hypocrite without both sides of the story, or any proven facts

so its sorta like you being the president of PETA and plowing thru a stack of quarter pounders

How am I being hypocritical in this situation? I said I thought it was funny that a man who is campaigning against gay marriage is ALLEGEDLY a peter puffer.

And we're not in some court of law where I need hard facts to post a story on the SO and comment on them.

[crawfish]

Cindy Sheehan may be crazy and an attention whore, but that isn't quite the same thing. last i heard she wasn't off starting wars or something either ;)

and i have no idea who the other beyonce is, but i'd bet she isn't coming out against religion and then starting churches on the side

Cindy Sheehan is hugging warmongers (albeit liberal ones) on international TV.

The other woman was the prominant atheist of her time. She was the first one to challenge prayer/bible in public schools. She came out on numerous occasions calling Christians a bunch of hypocritical theives. She was president of American Atheists. Eventually, it was discovered that she'd been stealing money from the organization and she was kicked out. She was eventually kidnapped and killed by a fellow atheist.

[jk the sooner fan]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227159,00.html

Dontcha just love the hypocrisy?


your post, not mine

[crawfish]

How am I being hypocritical in this situation? I said I thought it was funny that a man who is campaigning against gay marriage is ALLEGEDLY a peter puffer.

Of couse, you are allegedly one as well, if howzit is to be believed. The man can brag... :texan:

[crawfish]

your post, not mine

Could that be...hypocrisy?

:pop:

[JohnnyMack]

your post, not mine

Would it make you feel all better if I went back and qualified my statement?

:rolleyes:

[JohnnyMack]

Of couse, you are allegedly one as well, if howzit is to be believed. The man can brag... :texan:

HE'S A DAMNED LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WAS PASSED OUT!!!!!!! STUPID ROOFIES!!!!!!!!!!

:mad:

[jk the sooner fan]

sure, are you going to give the preacher a chance to qualify his side of the story?

[mdklatt]

How am I being hypocritical in this situation? I said I thought it was funny that a man who is campaigning against gay marriage is ALLEGEDLY a peter puffer.


I don't think it's necessarily inconsistent to be gay and be also be opposed to gay marriage. Just sayin'.

[jk the sooner fan]

lol, yeah alot of hetero's are opposed to straight marriage! :)

[SoonerInKCMO]

Dang, this thread done blew the **** up. :D

[Oldnslo]

Wait a minute:

The president of PETA was found chugging through a stack of quarter pounders? Aren't those Royalls?

[crawfish]

Would it make you feel all better if I went back and qualified my statement?

:rolleyes:

Arguments accusing one of hypocrisy are typically more compelling when they don't contain hypocrisy of their own.

I'm just sayin'...

[JohnnyMack]

Arguments accusing one of hypocrisy are typically more compelling when they don't contain hypocrisy of their own.

I'm just sayin'...

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1633151&postcount=1

All better?

[C&CDean]

Still going huh.

Widescreen: I'm glad you found your dream church. I'm glad your 70 year old preacher is righteous. I'm glad yours and by your account several other churches got it all going on. Of course I ain't buying it (certainly not all of it) but if it makes you feel better, rock on.

crawfish: You're analogy to hunting was way off the mark. Why? Cause you said "so when I was a kid somebody told me all hunters were bad so now they're bad" or some such. You see, I spent every Sunday of my life from the first Sunday after I was born until I left home in church. And Sunday School. And Sunday night service. And Wednesday night prayer meeting. And Thursday night youth. And 2-week summer camps.

When I got caught shoplifting a candy bar when I was about 9 I had to spend several hours with Pastor Thomas and Brother Hipple confessing my sins to God, begging for forgiveness, and swearing "I'm sad I did it not that I got caught doing it."

Every minute of my mother's life is consumed with religion. Every thing that comes out of her mouth is based on religion. If you see a hooker on the corner she's like "Matthew 3:21 says selling of the flesh will get your *** burning in the brimstone quicker than you can blink an eye..."

My first wife was Catholic. I got married in her church. Full mass, etc. I went through Engaged Encounter. I asked the priest all kinds of pointed questions. "Why is Jesus still on y'all's cross? I thought he was resurrected." And "why are you smoking a cigar and drinking wine while you counsel us? I thought those were sins." And "why do you have statues of saints and Mary all over the place? They creep me out." He gave lots of good answers too. Things like "do you carry a picture of your girlfriend in your wallet? Why? So you can remember her. That's why we have statues."

I know me some religion. And my opinion of it and the people who get into it for a living are based on years and years of living it, not on what some goober told me when I was 7. I've tried lots of different churches in my adult life. Methodist. Baptist. Rock & Roll (New Life, Journey, etc.). And they always lead to one thing. Politics. Especially when the church begins to have growth. Power. Greed. Deceit. Adultery. Lies. You know, all the things that the church is supposed to be against?

So, when I speak my mind about organized religion it's not based on what I've heard or what I've been told. It's based on my life.

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the power of prayer. I believe in doing good deeds. I believe that there's lots of really, really good people who walk through the doors of churches every Sunday. And I do NOT believe in organized religion. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to interpret the Bible. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to think. It's between my God and me.

[SoonerInKCMO]

D00d - Journey was a good band but I'd hardly consider them a religion.

[OklahomaTuba]

Not sure what to say really, but I guess we have to hate the sin, and not the sinner if this is true.

And to thank God for sending his only son, so that we may all be forgiven for all of our transgression.

Just tired of this BS. But people sin, and Christianity is a religion of sinners.

[C&CDean]

D00d - Journey was a good band but I'd hardly consider them a religion.

I actually chuckled.

[picasso]

the worst thing about churches IMO, is they tend to judge other churches more than Joe Sinner on the street.
MOST churches want to pray for that person and help them. you guys quickly forget how much money and time is given to missions (just an example).
the folks in my church in downtown Tulsa do more for the homeless there than the average person.

and you guys can't throw all us believers into the same boat. because I don't hate on gays, drunks, liberals or even follks with bad haircuts.:)

[Mjcpr]

D00d - Journey was a good band but I'd hardly consider them a religion.

Don't stop.....be-lievin'.....

[TexasSooner01]

....peter puffer..

"peter puffer" That made me giggle!

[Xstnlsooner]

I knew Ted Haggard in undergrad school back in the 70's and I have to say
I am "shocked" to say the least about these allegations. Not saying they
are not true, the facts have yet to all be made public. I consider myself
a pretty hardcore Christian, but I know that I have been and am still at
times, a hypocrit, although I don't do male prostitutes or meth. Still, no
Christian has ever done it all right and never messed up and that is not
the point of what being a Christian is, doing everything right. Being a
Christian is about the relationship I have with God the Father through
God the Son, Jesus, because of his death for me.

It is very sad if these things are true about Ted, but it won't derail
God's train. He knows where it's headed and when it going to get there.

[OklahomaTuba]

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the power of prayer. I believe in doing good deeds. I believe that there's lots of really, really good people who walk through the doors of churches every Sunday. And I do NOT believe in organized religion. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to interpret the Bible. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to think. It's between my God and me.

I think that is the best way of putting it.

Only thing that matters to me is salvation thru my Lord Jesus Christ.

[OklahomaTuba]

Still, no
Christian has ever done it all right and never messed up and that is not
the point of what being a Christian is, doing everything right. Being a
Christian is about the relationship I have with God the Father through
God the Son, Jesus, because of his death for me.

People should remember who was on the crosses with Jesus that day, and what Jesus said to them.

A fact that many people forget I think.

[crawfish]

crawfish: You're analogy to hunting was way off the mark. Why? Cause you said "so when I was a kid somebody told me all hunters were bad so now they're bad" or some such. You see, I spent every Sunday of my life from the first Sunday after I was born until I left home in church. And Sunday School. And Sunday night service. And Wednesday night prayer meeting. And Thursday night youth. And 2-week summer camps.

When I got caught shoplifting a candy bar when I was about 9 I had to spend several hours with Pastor Thomas and Brother Hipple confessing my sins to God, begging for forgiveness, and swearing "I'm sad I did it not that I got caught doing it."

Every minute of my mother's life is consumed with religion. Every thing that comes out of her mouth is based on religion. If you see a hooker on the corner she's like "Matthew 3:21 says selling of the flesh will get your *** burning in the brimstone quicker than you can blink an eye..."

My first wife was Catholic. I got married in her church. Full mass, etc. I went through Engaged Encounter. I asked the priest all kinds of pointed questions. "Why is Jesus still on y'all's cross? I thought he was resurrected." And "why are you smoking a cigar and drinking wine while you counsel us? I thought those were sins." And "why do you have statues of saints and Mary all over the place? They creep me out." He gave lots of good answers too. Things like "do you carry a picture of your girlfriend in your wallet? Why? So you can remember her. That's why we have statues."

I know me some religion. And my opinion of it and the people who get into it for a living are based on years and years of living it, not on what some goober told me when I was 7. I've tried lots of different churches in my adult life. Methodist. Baptist. Rock & Roll (New Life, Journey, etc.). And they always lead to one thing. Politics. Especially when the church begins to have growth. Power. Greed. Deceit. Adultery. Lies. You know, all the things that the church is supposed to be against?

So, when I speak my mind about organized religion it's not based on what I've heard or what I've been told. It's based on my life.

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the power of prayer. I believe in doing good deeds. I believe that there's lots of really, really good people who walk through the doors of churches every Sunday. And I do NOT believe in organized religion. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to interpret the Bible. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to think. It's between my God and me.

Well, perhaps I could change the analogy. My dad dragged out hunting until I left the house with his crazy friends" or something like that. I don't want to get in this with you again - you know my opinion, that solitary Christianity is empty, like an apple tree with no apples on it.

I've seen good and bad in organized religion. Most people outside the church, or barely involved, tend to focus on the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff. Don't be putting words in our mouths because of what you've seen.

[jk the sooner fan]

mods are slipping around here, you used to get banned for "peter puffer" ;)

[SoonerProphet]

So...are the Sea Otters going to take over anytime soon? What about flying spaghetti?

[Taxman71]

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the power of prayer. I believe in doing good deeds.

Wasn't that a song by Don Williams?

[JohnnyMack]

mods are slipping around here, you used to get banned for "peter puffer" ;)

Heh. I had forgotten about that.

[jk the sooner fan]

and fwiw, i'm just pushing buttons for the sport of it! :)

[TexasLidig8r]

. . .

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the power of prayer. I believe in doing good deeds. I believe that there's lots of really, really good people who walk through the doors of churches every Sunday. And I do NOT believe in organized religion. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to interpret the Bible. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to think. It's between my God and me.

Agree with that part 1000%.

Dayum.. I'm gonna have Dean wearing bow ties and drinking cabernet before you know it. :D

[OCUDad]

Handcrafted, when you stop being a pompous holier-than-thou expert on all things Christian, let us know, mmkay? :rolleyes:

[handcrafted]

Did he really make that big a fuss about it? It's not even a commandment.

What on earth are you smoking today, MD? I mean, generally speaking, you usually talk out your butt, but this time you've gone over the top.

Leviticus 18: "you shall not lie with a man as with a woman. It is an abomination."

Sounds like a commandment to me.

[Xstnlsooner]

The thing about truth is that it is NOT arbitrary, but what is arbitrary
is what is truth, huh! As for people telling others how to interpret
the Bible, some are much more qualified to do that. It was not
written in King James English, nor Latin and the Greek language
is more proficient in being specific about meanings of words.
People who don't know Greek do have a tendence to misinterpret
and I especially mean preachers!!, but laymen do it too!

[handcrafted]

Still going huh.

Widescreen: I'm glad you found your dream church. I'm glad your 70 year old preacher is righteous. I'm glad yours and by your account several other churches got it all going on. Of course I ain't buying it (certainly not all of it) but if it makes you feel better, rock on.

crawfish: You're analogy to hunting was way off the mark. Why? Cause you said "so when I was a kid somebody told me all hunters were bad so now they're bad" or some such. You see, I spent every Sunday of my life from the first Sunday after I was born until I left home in church. And Sunday School. And Sunday night service. And Wednesday night prayer meeting. And Thursday night youth. And 2-week summer camps.

When I got caught shoplifting a candy bar when I was about 9 I had to spend several hours with Pastor Thomas and Brother Hipple confessing my sins to God, begging for forgiveness, and swearing "I'm sad I did it not that I got caught doing it."

Every minute of my mother's life is consumed with religion. Every thing that comes out of her mouth is based on religion. If you see a hooker on the corner she's like "Matthew 3:21 says selling of the flesh will get your *** burning in the brimstone quicker than you can blink an eye..."

My first wife was Catholic. I got married in her church. Full mass, etc. I went through Engaged Encounter. I asked the priest all kinds of pointed questions. "Why is Jesus still on y'all's cross? I thought he was resurrected." And "why are you smoking a cigar and drinking wine while you counsel us? I thought those were sins." And "why do you have statues of saints and Mary all over the place? They creep me out." He gave lots of good answers too. Things like "do you carry a picture of your girlfriend in your wallet? Why? So you can remember her. That's why we have statues."

I know me some religion. And my opinion of it and the people who get into it for a living are based on years and years of living it, not on what some goober told me when I was 7. I've tried lots of different churches in my adult life. Methodist. Baptist. Rock & Roll (New Life, Journey, etc.). And they always lead to one thing. Politics. Especially when the church begins to have growth. Power. Greed. Deceit. Adultery. Lies. You know, all the things that the church is supposed to be against?

So, when I speak my mind about organized religion it's not based on what I've heard or what I've been told. It's based on my life.

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the power of prayer. I believe in doing good deeds. I believe that there's lots of really, really good people who walk through the doors of churches every Sunday. And I do NOT believe in organized religion. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to interpret the Bible. I simply don't want somebody else telling me how to think. It's between my God and me.

Then I'd like your interpretation of this:

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

--Hebrews 10:24-25

And this:

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers.

--1 John 3:14

[OklahomaTuba]

What on earth are you smoking today, MD? I mean, generally speaking, you usually talk out your butt, but this time you've gone over the top.

Leviticus 18: "you shall not lie with a man as with a woman. It is an abomination."

Sounds like a commandment to me.

I don't think it is a commandment HC. Those are ancient hebrew laws.

I believe God instructions to us to not commit adultery probably covers it all.

Thankfully though, Jesus died for our sins, if we choose to accept him into our hearts.

[handcrafted]

Handcrafted, when you stop being a pompous holier-than-thou expert on all things Christian, let us know, mmkay? :rolleyes:

Well, gee. I've studied the Bible. So that makes me pompous and holier-than-thou? The truth I speak is not my own, it comes from God's Word. You think I make this stuff up, or what? The sad fact is that the vast majority of American Christians don't know a tenth of what they should. That's why the church is in trouble. I know more than most, simply because I've made an effort to study it, because it's the most important thing a person can do. I am preparing myself to teach at my church, so I kinda want to know what I'm talking about. Good idea, doncha think?

BTW I happen to be just about the least holy person I know. Thank God that He sent Jesus, or I'd be doomed.

And to those cowards who sent me anonymous negspek, it's a good thing I have you God-haters to straighten me out. :rolleyes:

[Widescreen]

And to those cowards who sent me anonymous negspek, it's a good thing I have you God-haters to straighten me out. :rolleyes:
Dude, become a sponsor so you can see who's sending you anonymous negspek. I've never received any because everything I post, everyone agrees with. But that's just how I roll. ;)

[Mjcpr]

And to those cowards who sent me anonymous negspek, it's a good thing I have you God-haters to straighten me out. :rolleyes:

This is why I believe He gave us the powers of Sponsorship.

Amen.

[Octavian]

Then I'd like your interpretation of this:

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

--Hebrews 10:24-25

And this:

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers.

--1 John 3:14

but that's his point. It's all interpretation.

Neither of those passages (especially the second one) is necessarily an endorsement of organized religion to me.

They can be interpreted a number of ways...

Many people just don't want other human beings telling them how they should do that.

[Scott D]

Well, perhaps I could change the analogy. My dad dragged out hunting until I left the house with his crazy friends" or something like that. I don't want to get in this with you again - you know my opinion, that solitary Christianity is empty, like an apple tree with no apples on it.

I've seen good and bad in organized religion. Most people outside the church, or barely involved, tend to focus on the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff. Don't be putting words in our mouths because of what you've seen.

That's because you are perceiving it as Christianity...Dean's beliefs are more of a belief in Spirituality....

And Dean, Handcrafted still thinks you are going to hell. :D

[handcrafted]

I don't think it is a commandment HC. Those are ancient hebrew laws.

I believe God instructions to us to not commit adultery probably covers it all.

Thankfully though, Jesus died for our sins, if we choose to accept him into our hearts.

And, we should strive to live a life in conformity to that fact, correct?

Here's something that opened my eyes wide to proper understanding of the OT, especially the mosaic law. Take a look on wikipedia or google and search the terms "moral law" "ceremonial law" or "Old Testament laws". You should come up with some articles describing the different types of law in the OT and their uses. Leviticus 18 is a moral imperative. The civil punishment for homosexuality is elsewhere in the book; that's the part that is "ancient Hebrew law" which does not apply to us today. Behind every civil punishment there is a moral imperative.

[Scott D]

Well, gee. I've studied the Bible. So that makes me pompous and holier-than-thou? The truth I speak is not my own, it comes from God's Word. You think I make this stuff up, or what? The sad fact is that the vast majority of American Christians don't know a tenth of what they should. That's why the church is in trouble. I know more than most, simply because I've made an effort to study it, because it's the most important thing a person can do. I am preparing myself to teach at my church, so I kinda want to know what I'm talking about. Good idea, doncha think?

BTW I happen to be just about the least holy person I know. Thank God that He sent Jesus, or I'd be doomed.

And to those cowards who sent me anonymous negspek, it's a good thing I have you God-haters to straighten me out. :rolleyes:

One day wisdom will come your way handy..

and such babies to anon negspek handy for having conviction in his beliefs.

[handcrafted]

That's because you are perceiving it as Christianity...Dean's beliefs are more of a belief in Spirituality....

And Dean, Handcrafted still thinks you are going to hell. :D

Don't put words in my mouth. Dean may very well be saved, in fact I would say he is, from what I can tell (but only God knows the heart).

However, I DO believe that in Heaven, Dean will be getting my coffee. :D

[handcrafted]

One day wisdom will come your way handy..

and such babies to anon negspek handy for having conviction in his beliefs.

I pray for wisdom daily, Scott. It's an approved-of sort of request. King Solomon found that out.

[Octavian]

The truth I speak is not my own, it comes from God's Word. You think I make this stuff up, or what?

your truth is exactly that. It's your truth because it's the way you interpret it.

Cause that's like, your oppinion, man.

Other people may differ with you and your interpretations...that doesn't mean they don't have their owns truths for themselves...

[Scott D]

Don't put words in my mouth. Dean may very well be saved, in fact I would say he is, from what I can tell (but only God knows the heart).

However, I DO believe that in Heaven, Dean will be getting my coffee. :D

Dean's going to hell, because he'd get bored in Heaven :D

[handcrafted]

but that's his point. It's all interpretation.

Neither of those passages (especially the second one) is necessarily an endorsement of organized religion to me.

They can be interpreted a number of ways...

Many people just don't want other human beings telling them how they should do that.

Yes, to put it another way, many people are not teachable.

There is only 1 (ONE) correct interpretation. That is, the author's original intent. There is a correct meaning, and we can figure out what it is.

There are, however, many different applications of a given text. Those are the things that are debateable and perhaps create legitimate differences of opinion that are unresolveable.

[handcrafted]

your truth is exactly that. It's your truth because it's the way you interpret it.

Cause that's like, your oppinion, man.

Other people may differ with you and your interpretations...that doesn't mean they don't have their owns truths for themselves...

There is only one truth, dude. You are addicted to the post-modern kool-aid. Spit it out and seek reality.

[handcrafted]

Dude, become a sponsor so you can see who's sending you anonymous negspek. I've never received any because everything I post, everyone agrees with. But that's just how I roll. ;)

Most people are afraid to neg you because you advocate sweeping the leg.

Just sayin'. :D

[JohnnyMack]

I've never received any because everything I post, everyone agrees with. But that's just how I roll. ;)

:les:YES SENSEI!!!!!!!!!!

[Octavian]

...many people are not teachable.

heh.


There is only 1 (ONE) correct interpretation. That is, the author's original intent. There is a correct meaning, and we can figure out what it is.


there's about 20 centuries worth of history that disagrees with you.

[Xstnlsooner]

Most people who have bought into "the truth being relative" hoax
haven't thought it through. Tolerance is such a by-word these
days and so seemingly noble, but it's a bunch of hooweeeee!!

If something is true, it will not contradict itself!

[JohnnyMack]

One day wisdom will come your way handy..

and such babies to anon negspek handy for having conviction in his beliefs.

I should anonymously negspek you for your Tigers performance.

[Octavian]

There is only one truth, dude.

lemme guess...it's yours?

[Scott D]

There is only one truth, dude. You are addicted to the post-modern kool-aid. Spit it out and seek reality.

not going to argue the semantics of religion, but that phrase seems to have been passed down from pre-christianity religion. The scriptures and beliefs are just guidelines for the journey...too many interpret them to in fact be the journey.

[Scott D]

I should anonymously negspek you for your Tigers performance.

If you think that...then I'd like to know when my name became Paperclip.

[picasso]

anybody else wonder about the timing of this story? being election time and all.

just sayin.


;)

[Sooner_Bob]

Haven't we already discussed and re-discussed 99% of this thread?

[Octavian]

Haven't we already discussed and re-discussed 99% of this thread?

at least twice ;)

[handcrafted]

heh.



there's about 20 centuries worth of history that disagrees with you.

Let me ask you something. Let's say there is a math class with 30 students, and they are given a test. On the test there is one question that the entire class gets wrong. Does it then necessarily follow that there was no right answer to the question?

By saying there is only one correct interpretation, I am by no means implying that it is certain that I have it. In some cases I know that I do, in others I am less certain, and still others I have no clue. But I am always searching.

[olevetonahill]

There is only one truth, dude. You are addicted to the post-modern kool-aid. Spit it out and seek reality.
Lets see, it seems most folk around the world believe in some sort of GOD.
and have one form of religion or another. But you have to agree with me in this statement . MORE harm has been done to humanity in the name of religion. than in any other form
True or not true ?

[handcrafted]

lemme guess...it's yours?

*bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* no, I'm sorry, thank you for playing, the correct answer is "God's truth". We also would have accepted "true reality".

[handcrafted]

Lets see, it seems most folk around the world believe in some sort of GOD.
and have one form of religion or another. But you have to agree with me in this statement . MORE harm has been done to humanity in the name of religion. than in any other form
True or not true ?

Not true.

More harm has been done in the name of atheism. Stalin and Hitler killed more people in 20 years than all the religious wars in history.

[olevetonahill]

Let me ask you something. Let's say there is a math class with 30 students, and they are given a test. On the test there is one question that the entire class gets wrong. Does it then necessarily follow that there was no right answer to the question?

By saying there is only one correct interpretation, I am by no means implying that it is certain that I have it. In some cases I know that I do, in others I am less certain, and still others I have no clue. But I am always searching.
Not to me, it would mean that all 30 are dip****s :pop:

[C&CDean]

Don't put words in my mouth. Dean may very well be saved, in fact I would say he is, from what I can tell (but only God knows the heart).

However, I DO believe that in Heaven, Dean will be getting my coffee. :D

You will be getting my coffee, bitch.

When you bring individual, out-of-context scriptures into any argument you've automatically lost. People who do this (you, crawfish, and my mother are a few I can think of off the top of my head) pick those snippets that enforce their way of thinking and then wear them out.

I don't begrudge anybody their religion fix. My wife loves going to church up at 1st Baptist Lex. It energizes and refreshes her. When I go with her, I enjoy the music, and sometimes the message is entertaining, but I just can't get over all the people who go "amen!" and "praise the lord!" who I also know have cheated neighbors of mine or are in adulterous relationships or who are downright mean, rotten, hateful, SINFUL people. Why in the hell anybody wants to go up there every Sunday and hang out with a bunch of liars is beyond me.

Some folks, like Crawfish, feel it's their religious duty. They feel it's a requirement to get into the kingdom of heaven. They feel that my apple tree is empty cause I ain't hobnobbing and playing a part in the church drama with all the other sinners at the church house. That's cool. But for this heathenistic hillbilly, I'll take my dose of God out where God is. I figure he's more bound to pay attention to my prayers since I'm simply one sinner admiring His handiwork and praising and thanking Him for it, not a whole building full of sinners begging Him for riches and crap.

And for the most part, there's more truth and honesty going down in the 89er Club than up at the church house.

[olevetonahill]

Not true.

More harm has been done in the name of atheism. Stalin and Hitler killed more people in 20 years than all the religious wars in history.
:rolleyes: ok :rolleyes:

[Octavian]

Not true.

More harm has been done in the name of atheism. Stalin and Hitler killed more people in 20 years than all the religious wars in history.

you realize Nazi Germany professed to be fighting for Christianity right?

[crawfish]

Some folks, like Crawfish, feel it's their religious duty. They feel it's a requirement to get into the kingdom of heaven. They feel that my apple tree is empty cause I ain't hobnobbing and playing a part in the church drama with all the other sinners at the church house. That's cool. But for this heathenistic hillbilly, I'll take my dose of God out where God is. I figure he's more bound to pay attention to my prayers since I'm simply one sinner admiring His handiwork and praising and thanking Him for it, not a whole building full of sinners begging Him for riches and crap.

Thanks for telling me what I believe. I was confused. :rolleyes:

You honestly don't know what I think or believe. You simplify Christianity - and pretty much everything else, for that matter - to fit into your fairly limited worldview. Amusing and entertaining, it is, but it's also putting words in the mouths of others that don't (necessarily) belong there.

Just don't get mad when other people do the same to you. ;)

[crawfish]

you realize Nazi Germany professed to be fighting for Christianity right?

He probably meant Mao.

However, Hitler was a pagan, to be honest, although Germany itself was overwhelmingly Christian.

[picasso]

you realize Nazi Germany professed to be fighting for Christianity right?
on the surface. but those dudes were into the occult. not catholicism.

[Widescreen]

My wife loves going to church up at 1st Baptist Lex. It energizes and refreshes her. Why in the hell anybody wants to go up there every Sunday and hang out with a bunch of liars is beyond me.
To be energized and refreshed?


you realize Nazi Germany professed to be fighting for Christianity right?
Yeah, right alongside all the occult practices that they actually believed in.

[Scott D]

psst craw...Christianity is simple...along with every other myth driven religion...oh wait, 'myth driven religion' is redundant since all religion is driven by myths.

[crawfish]

My wife loves going to church up at 1st Baptist Lex. It energizes and refreshes her. Why in the hell anybody wants to go up there every Sunday and hang out with a bunch of liars is beyond me.

To be energized and refreshed?


Because she's used to it at home?






(I'm kidding, I'm kidding.)

[crawfish]

psst craw...Christianity is simple...along with every other myth driven religion...oh wait, 'myth driven religion' is redundant since all religion is driven by myths.

The strict definition of "myth" doesn't mean something is false. ;)

ALL belief systems - nation, politics, etc - are driven by myth, btw. You don't think George actually chopped down that cherry tree, do you?

[C&CDean]

Dude, I know where your pop lives. He's still big enough to give you a whoopin'.

And pray tell, why do you feel the need to go to the church house then if it ain't to save your soul?

[mdklatt]

Leviticus 18: "you shall not lie with a man as with a woman. It is an abomination."

Sounds like a commandment to me.

It's not a Commandment.

[leavingthezoo]

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers.

--1 John 3:14

see? a gay dude could take this passage (as it stands alone) and swear up and down it's why it's not only ok, but encouraged to boink a brother.

interpretation is a crazy thing. and it's always influenced by what works best for us. IMO.

[Ike]

on the surface. but those dudes were into the occult. not catholicism.


which further separates Nazi Germany from the original assertion that they killed in the name of atheism. Atheists do not believe in supernatural anythings. Occultists certainly do.



just sayin.

[C&CDean]

see? a gay dude could take this passage (as it stands alone) and swear up and down it's why it's not only ok, but encouraged to boink a brother.

interpretation is a crazy thing. and it's always influenced by what works best for us. IMO.

Careful there. I smell a burning at the stake coming...at the hands of Handcrafted the Chosen One, and Crawfish the Crusader...:eek:

[leavingthezoo]

Careful there. I smell a burning at the stake coming...at the hands of Handcrafted the Chosen One, and Crawfish the Crusader...:eek:

i hope there are marshmallows. :D

[Widescreen]

And pray tell, why do you feel the need to go to the church house then if it ain't to save your soul?
Because I enjoy hearing God's Word in different ways that I can apply to my daily life. Also, it gives me another chance to serve Him.

My soul's been saved for 30 years so, for me, going to church has nothing to do with that.

[crawfish]

Dude, I know where your pop lives. He's still big enough to give you a whoopin'.

And pray tell, why do you feel the need to go to the church house then if it ain't to save your soul?

My dad is harder-headed than me (or you, for that matter). That hard-headedness is a major reason the TTC is still in Norman instead of California. He's also a heck of a lot more conservative. He'd probably get onto me for not being tough enough on ya. :D

We have a God-given responsibility to be there for others, to be a positive influence and to tend to his children. Going to heaven is ALL grace - my good works (or bad works) don't have a lick of effect on my eternal salvation whatsoever. However, God calls and I answer, and I can't imagine it any other way.

[PhilTLL]

Let me ask you something. Let's say there is a math class with 30 students, and they are given a test. On the test there is one question that the entire class gets wrong. Does it then necessarily follow that there was no right answer to the question?

By saying there is only one correct interpretation, I am by no means implying that it is certain that I have it. In some cases I know that I do, in others I am less certain, and still others I have no clue. But I am always searching.

I never thought I'd have to remind anyone that mathematics is not religion or philosophy.

[sanantoniosooner]

I never thought I'd have to remind anyone that mathematics is not religion or philosophy.
You'd be surprised to know how much philosophy and mathematics overlap.

It's called logic, and they both use the same notation.

[PhilTLL]

The strict definition of "myth" doesn't mean something is false. ;)

ALL belief systems - nation, politics, etc - are driven by myth, btw. You don't think George actually chopped down that cherry tree, do you?

Fortunately, the Constitution and Declaration of Independence aren't centered around that apocryphal story, they're centered around universal concepts and (usually) logic. I'm not seeing the mythological portion of the right to free speech or trial by jury.

[crawfish]

Fortunately, the Constitution and Declaration of Independence aren't centered around that apocryphal story, they're centered around universal concepts and (usually) logic. I'm not seeing the mythological portion of the right to free speech or trial by jury.

"Separation of church and state"

;)

[sanantoniosooner]

interpretation is a crazy thing. and it's always influenced by what works best for us. IMO.
Interpretation of scripture is very similar to interpretation of every day stuff.

If you cut out a little snippet you can make it sound like whatever you want.

If you take a larger portion and take it with the context of the times and the culture involved, you are way less likely to get a wild interpretation.

[PhilTLL]

You'd be surprised to know how much philosophy and mathematics overlap.

It's called logic, and they both use the same notation.

Philosophy that uses logic does so for internal consistency, but my point was that a math test has concrete and correct answers, unlike the great metaphysical questions.

[Widescreen]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/03/D8L5PJLO0.html


Talking to reporters outside his house Friday, Haggard denied the sex allegations but said that he did buy meth from the man because he was curious.

"I bought it for myself but never used it," he said. "I was tempted, but I never used it."
He must be a disciple of Clinton. He didn't inhale either.

[Ike]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/03/D8L5PJLO0.html


He must be a disciple of Clinton. He didn't inhale either.

wow...thats funny right there, I don't care who you are.

especially if this message is true:



"Hi Mike, this is Art," one call began, according to the station. "Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply."

[crawfish]

See, NOW we find out what a weasel he is. Wait until he opens his mouth next time, guys. ;)

[Jerk]

sorry. nm

(just keeping things here a goin')

[leavingthezoo]

Interpretation of scripture is very similar to interpretation of every day stuff.

If you cut out a little snippet you can make it sound like whatever you want.

If you take a larger portion and take it with the context of the times and the culture involved, you are way less likely to get a wild interpretation.

i'm not disagreeing. i'm just pointing out to handcrafted that he can hand pick scripture (that was his hand picked scripture, btw) and so can the gay guys.

[OCUDad]

And to those cowards who sent me anonymous negspek, it's a good thing I have you God-haters to straighten me out. :rolleyes:Trust me, if I cared enough about your opinions to send you any kind of spek at all, it wouldn't be anonymous.

[Jerk]

i'm not disagreeing. i'm just pointing out to handypants that he can hand pick scripture (that was his hand picked scripture, btw) and so can the gay guys.

I don't argue with people about religion anymore. They want to tell you about their beliefs, but they don't want to hear yours.

[Mjcpr]

Settle down guys, I read where he just got a massage and bought a little meth.

Nothing to see here, move along.

[leavingthezoo]

Settle down guys, it was me who got a massage and bought a little meth.

Nothing to see here, move along.


:eek:

[C&CDean]

My dad is harder-headed than me (or you, for that matter). That hard-headedness is a major reason the TTC is still in Norman instead of California. He's also a heck of a lot more conservative. He'd probably get onto me for not being tough enough on ya. :D

We have a God-given responsibility to be there for others, to be a positive influence and to tend to his children. Going to heaven is ALL grace - my good works (or bad works) don't have a lick of effect on my eternal salvation whatsoever. However, God calls and I answer, and I can't imagine it any other way.

I will attest that your dad's head is probably the hardest I've seen. Ever. But that's what I liked about working for him. We had a saying that went something like this (don't take it the wrong way cause it really is a compliment) "he's an *******, but he's a predictable, stable, rock solid, never wavering *******, and I can deal with that. You always know what you're gonna get."

I guess the biggest difference between you and I is that we simply don't agree on what "tending to God's children" and "God calls" entails. I do not like church. I have attended church many times out of guilt, but have finally gotten to a point that I honestly feel God understands me. I do not feel "blessed" in church. I'm pretty much just wishing it'd hurry up and get over with so we could get to the galdanged fried chicken.

OTOH, I feel extremely blessed in solitude. I simply have never, and don't believe I could ever feel closer to God than I do when I'm in the woods or on a mountain top. In church, people **** it all up.

I feel extremely blessed when I can help others in need out. Changing a flat tire for somebody, giving somebody some gas who's run out, giving some advice to a dumbass teenager, etc. My wife and I often say when we're walking around the ranch "what did we do to deserve all this?" And the answer we come up with is "we believe that God gave it all to us for a reason and it is our job to caretake it, caretake the animals, and to praise Him for it." So we do. Her at the church house, me in a deer stand or on a tractor or just walking through the woods or across a meadow.

[Jerk]

Ain't no way I'd ever let a gay dude give me a message. The guy at least had to be more than curious. -signed Captain Obvious

There is a verse in the Bible about wolves in sheeps clothing who get into the church....but it ain't for me to judge...but...it may apply...I aint saying it does here, though. I'm just sayin.

[Mjcpr]

Sweet, when do you think he's gonna give me mines?

[leavingthezoo]

what cracks me up most is a drug dealin' hooker just outted himself in the outting. that's got to be bad for business.

[soonerspiff]

which further separates Nazi Germany from the original assertion that they killed in the name of atheism. Atheists do not believe in supernatural anythings.


Well, technically, I think Atheism is the belief that there is no "God", or a supreme being. God is a loaded term, usually meaning an omniscient, omnipotent being. So if you reject that definition of God, you could call yourself an atheist, while still believing in something.


Just sayin'.

[mdklatt]

what cracks me up most is a drug dealin' hooker just outted himself in the outting.

It's called advertising. :D

[C&CDean]

And to those cowards who sent me anonymous negspek, it's a good thing I have you God-haters to straighten me out. :rolleyes:

I just saw this snippet.

Who in the **** do you think you are? Now when people disagree with you or negspek you they're God-haters? I disagree with you on many points (especially your holier-than-thou out-of-context Bible verse quoting tired-*** schtick), and would negspek you simply on GP, but you're an arrogant SOB to think that just because folks disagree with you makes them a God-hater.

Bad form. And shame upon you.

[JohnnyMack]

Not true.

More harm has been done in the name of atheism. Stalin and Hitler killed more people in 20 years than all the religious wars in history.

But couldn't it be argued that the people Hitler killed in the Holocaust were a tad bit religious?

[sanantoniosooner]

But couldn't it be argued that the people Hitler killed in the Holocaust were a tad bit religious?
I think killing someone because of your religion is a little different than killing someone because of theirs.

But whatever works for you.

[olevetonahill]

I think killing someone because of your religion is a little different than killing someone because of theirs.

But whatever works for you.
Its still in the NAME of religion .
Then again, as has been said, according to Bill it ALL depends on what your definition of IS is ;)

[Jerk]

I think Hitler, who believed that Christianity was the greatest "trick" that the Jews ever pulled on society, killed the Jews - not because of religion, but because he believed that they were as smart or smarter than his "superior" aryan race. I admit that it's just theory, but "killing the competition" does happen. All of the propaganda about Jews being inferior was to get that whole society on-board with his "final solution" plans.

[crawfish]

I will attest that your dad's head is probably the hardest I've seen. Ever. But that's what I liked about working for him. We had a saying that went something like this (don't take it the wrong way cause it really is a compliment) "he's an *******, but he's a predictable, stable, rock solid, never wavering *******, and I can deal with that. You always know what you're gonna get."

I guess the biggest difference between you and I is that we simply don't agree on what "tending to God's children" and "God calls" entails. I do not like church. I have attended church many times out of guilt, but have finally gotten to a point that I honestly feel God understands me. I do not feel "blessed" in church. I'm pretty much just wishing it'd hurry up and get over with so we could get to the galdanged fried chicken.

OTOH, I feel extremely blessed in solitude. I simply have never, and don't believe I could ever feel closer to God than I do when I'm in the woods or on a mountain top. In church, people **** it all up.

I feel extremely blessed when I can help others in need out. Changing a flat tire for somebody, giving somebody some gas who's run out, giving some advice to a dumbass teenager, etc. My wife and I often say when we're walking around the ranch "what did we do to deserve all this?" And the answer we come up with is "we believe that God gave it all to us for a reason and it is our job to caretake it, caretake the animals, and to praise Him for it." So we do. Her at the church house, me in a deer stand or on a tractor or just walking through the woods or across a meadow.

Thanks. He was the same with us kids...tough but fair. I still smart from the tough part. :)

You shouldn't go to chuch because of guilt. That's the wrong reason. I am quite possibly the most introverted person on the planet, and being a software guy/SciFi geek-type there are very few people in the church like me anyway. Yet, I value those relationships I've forged here with people I have very little in common with. I treasure those opportunities I've had to connect with and help people in need, and when I've been able to be a strength to others when they're weak. I've had more than a few run-ins with self-rightous jerks and people who repel me...yet, I still wouldn't trade going to church for anything. Church offers an opportunity to serve in some capacity every time I go. My wife and I have found more than once that we've done some good without even knowing it (being there to talk to someone who really needed what we had to say, adding a personal experience to class that aided someone's current personal struggle, etc.). It's a privilige to serve the Lord, and I get as much out of it as anybody.

[JohnnyMack]

I think killing someone because of your religion is a little different than killing someone because of theirs.

But whatever works for you.

Is the killing based in a religious context or not?

[Taxman71]

I think this thread can be summed up in the words of George Jones (as can most things): the only difference between sinners and saints, one group is saved while the other one ain't.

I believe going to church is important to me and my family (our preacher is down to earth, non self-righteous small town kind of preacher, despite being in Norman). However, if you worship better elsewhere, I don't think it denies you entry into Heaven. God knows what is in your heart, which scares me sometimes.

[olevetonahill]

Oh and as far as hard heads go . I dont think there is a harder head than Dean , cept maybe me :D

[crawfish]

I think Hitler, who believed that Christianity was the greatest "trick" that the Jews ever pulled on society, killed the Jews - not because of religion, but because he believed that they were as smart or smarter than his "superior" aryan race. I admit that it's just theory, but "killing the competition" does happen. All of the propaganda about Jews being inferior was to get that whole society on-board with his "final solution" plans.

You can't have a good dictatorship without a good scapegoat, and Jews fit the bill quite often. Self-contained, separated from society in many ways and often better-off financially than their non-Jewish peers. Quite an easy mark. It had less to do with him feeling them "superior" than him able to take the financial woes of a country and lay it at the feet of a specific group that was less financially stressed than the majority.

Jews always tend to be in the scapegoat category because they are very rarely the majority. Thus is the justification of the nation of Israel.

[crawfish]

Is the killing based in a religious context or not?

See my quote above...but I believe the killing was less about Jewishness as a religion than Jews as a minority society. WWII was NOT a religous war by any means.

[sanantoniosooner]

Is the killing based in a religious context or not?
You could focus on a culture and use their religion as an earmark is all I'm saying. You don't hate their religion so much as you hate them, but the religion is a good point of recognition.

That makes the religion a relevant point, but not the real focus.

[Scott D]

The strict definition of "myth" doesn't mean something is false. ;)

ALL belief systems - nation, politics, etc - are driven by myth, btw. You don't think George actually chopped down that cherry tree, do you?

oh noes....my faith in the United States is gone because George didn't chop down the cherry tree...I hope you are proud of yourself now Craw :mad:

I didn't mean to imply that myth meant that something was false. But rather, that it's been a recurring theme throughout time. I think in the future, if there is a solidified future, there will likely be new types of religion based in part off of the myths of current religions, just how there are sections of current religions based off of the myths of religions that were dominant before them.

[JohnnyMack]

You can't have a good dictatorship without a good scapegoat, and Jews fit the bill quite often. Self-contained, separated from society in many ways and often better-off financially than their non-Jewish peers. Quite an easy mark. It had less to do with him feeling them "superior" than him able to take the financial woes of a country and lay it at the feet of a specific group that was less financially stressed than the majority.

Jews always tend to be in the scapegoat category because they are very rarely the majority. Thus is the justification of the nation of Israel.

I think that for this argument I'm going to have to allow that Jews killed by the Nazis were done so because of their Socio-economic status AS WELL AS their religious affiliation. So I'm gonna say I'm at least part right.

[Fugue]

Oh and as far as hard heads go . I dont think there is a harder head than Dean , cept maybe me :D

or maybe the calf that blasted his sack.

[crawfish]

oh noes....my faith in the United States is gone because George didn't chop down the cherry tree...I hope you are proud of yourself now Craw :mad:

I didn't mean to imply that myth meant that something was false. But rather, that it's been a recurring theme throughout time. I think in the future, if there is a solidified future, there will likely be new types of religion based in part off of the myths of current religions, just how there are sections of current religions based off of the myths of religions that were dominant before them.

Ideas - even those in the Bible, which I accept as God's word, are written using the vernacular and understandings of the people of the time they are presented. Thus, there are many other-mythological elements incorporated into the Bible as it is. You can even present the creation story as a reaction to the creation stories of the area - rather than as a "this is how God did it", it's more of "God created it all, and I'm going to deny each of the stories you've heard one by one in my retelling".

I'm trying to not open up another can of worms, for the record. This thread is already long enough. :)

[crawfish]

I think that for this argument I'm going to have to allow that Jews killed by the Nazis were done so because of their Socio-economic status AS WELL AS their religious affiliation. So I'm gonna say I'm at least part right.

I'm saying it was neither - it was their convenience as a homogeneous minority that did them in. Their specific beliefs and socio-economic status was simply a method by which to mark them as outsiders.

It could've been the Elks or the Masons, if they were as large and easily distinguished.

[OSUAggie]

Wow, there are a few more crazy protestants than I gave this nutty state credit for.

[Scott D]

Ideas - even those in the Bible, which I accept as God's word, are written using the vernacular and understandings of the people of the time they are presented. Thus, there are many other-mythological elements incorporated into the Bible as it is. You can even present the creation story as a reaction to the creation stories of the area - rather than as a "this is how God did it", it's more of "God created it all, and I'm going to deny each of the stories you've heard one by one in my retelling".

I'm trying to not open up another can of worms, for the record. This thread is already long enough. :)

Oh I know..but I also know that out of the ones speaking from the for lack of a better way to phrase it 'side' of the importance of church and it's influence..both intended and unintended upon the masses of humanity. You would be one of the few who would be willing to see what Joseph Campbell was referring to in his work, without immediately dismissing him as a Christianity hater.

[sanantoniosooner]

Wow, there are a few more crazy protestants than I gave this nutty state credit for.
Don't make us break out the beastiality scriptures.

[olevetonahill]

or maybe the calf that blasted his sack.
Spek and trudat lol
Now as far as pastor X goes or klinton or any one else
If you buy dope from , AND buy a massage from a fag you are guilty of being a fag , just sayin :eek:

[sanantoniosooner]

Spek and trudat lol
Now as far as pastor X goes or klinton or any one else
If you buy dope from , AND buy a massage from a fag you are guilty of being a fag , just sayin :eek:
being curious is dad gum near guilt.

[olevetonahill]

being curious is dad gum near guilt.
OOOOkay so I can buy dope and get a massage from a fag and not be a fag ? :confused:

[crawfish]

Don't make us break out the beastiality scriptures.

Heh.

[sanantoniosooner]

OOOOkay so I can buy dope and get a massage from a fag and not be a fag ? :confused:
no.

I suggested that if you even entertain the thought for more than a blink, you are one.:D

[olevetonahill]

no.

I suggested that if you even entertain the thought for more than a blink, you are one.:D
I see said the blind man ;)

[Stoop Dawg]

I think Hitler, who believed that Christianity was the greatest "trick" that the Jews ever pulled on society, killed the Jews - not because of religion, but because he believed that they were as smart or smarter than his "superior" aryan race. I admit that it's just theory, but "killing the competition" does happen. All of the propaganda about Jews being inferior was to get that whole society on-board with his "final solution" plans.

I think you're close, but I don't think Hitler feared the Jews so much as they just made a nice scapegoat. JMO, of course.

[Scott D]

I think you're close, but I don't think Hitler feared the Jews so much as they just made a nice scapegoat. JMO, of course.

not to mention that he blamed a Jew or two for his failure as an artist, and his family being poor when he was a kid or something.

[Kels]

I never heard of the man, and I'm not familiar with this organization. I guess my retreat from political activism 14 years ago has really worked.

I'm saddened by the news. It reflects badly on Christians, and on ministers in particular like me. People are going to enjoy raking this guy over the coals. It happens anytime someone who speaks out on morality gets caught living a lie. No one likes that brand of hypocrisy, and it does take some of the heat off of the rest of us for a while when the tables are turned.

Jesus spent a lot of energy blasting religious hypocrites in His day. He also reminded us that any standard we use to judge others will in turn be applied to us. He knew that none of us live up to our own expectations, let alone someone else's.

Some Christians seem to get one thing backwards, the New Testament prescribes strict policing for those within the Church, and little expectation for those on the outside of the Church to live righteously. Some try to apply this in reverse.

My concern is for his wife and children. How horrible! It reminds me of something my mentor once told me, "Sin takes you farther than you want to go, keeps you longer than you want to stay, and makes you pay more than you want to pay."

[OCUDad]

I don't argue with people about religion anymore. They want to tell you about their beliefs, but they don't want to hear yours.Arguing politics, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. :D

[crawfish]

Guess who?

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/5484/campow0.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE


Darren Stephens?

Most underrated post in this thread, IMO.

Probably needed a picture.

http://www.underconsideration.com/speakup/archives/kingsley_dick_york.jpg

[Widescreen]

Your own post is the most underrated in your opinion? And you follow that up with the tripod logo? Awesomeness-ity! :D

[sanantoniosooner]

everybody knows that gdc was the only one allowed to rate underratedness around here.

[49r]

I think it'd be really funny if I just turned this into the drunkytown thread.

:twinkies:

[49r]

:les: ONE BOURBON, ONE SCOTCH, AND ONE BEER!!!!

[olevetonahill]

I think it'd be really funny if I just turned this into the drunkytown thread.

:twinkies:
Geterdone
Im on a beer run be back :D

[sanantoniosooner]

I think it'd be really funny if I just turned this into the drunkytown thread.

:twinkies:
I don't drink, but you can bet that I wouldn't start in a thread about faggotry.

[crawfish]

Your own post is the most underrated in your opinion? And you follow that up with the tripod logo? Awesomeness-ity! :D

Fixed now. :O

[tbl]

For those not familiar, the NAE is a HUGE lobbying platform for conservative Christians. All the big name guys are on there and this guy is the head of the organization. Yet another big blow to the republicans...

I for one do not agree with the primary motive of the NAE since I believe we as believers should be more concerned with evangelizing the lost than trying to impose our beliefs on others through the law. I think most of these guys hearts are in the right place, but they are definitely taking the wrong approach.

If the NAE spent more time holding other believers accountable instead of trying to hold sinners accountable for doing what comes natural (sin by way of drunkenness, sexual perversion, drug use, etc), we might not see scandals like this within the Church. IMO the Bible is very clear that the Church has no place in establishing a theocracy in world governments. Christ Himself did not do that, though He will in the future (but lets not get into an argument on our eschatology).

I also find it amazing that this guy is only "on leave" from the 14,000 member Church which he pastors over. Since he admitted to the Church that some of the accusations are true, he should automatically be removed from the pulpit if he wasn't willing to step down voluntarily.

[Ike]

Well, technically, I think Atheism is the belief that there is no "God", or a supreme being. God is a loaded term, usually meaning an omniscient, omnipotent being. So if you reject that definition of God, you could call yourself an atheist, while still believing in something.


Just sayin'.

Everyone believes in "Something". With Atheism, that something is the belief that there are no supernatural beings. Make no mistake that that in and of itself is a belief. All definitions of God are rejected.

[Sooner_Bob]

Wow . . . this thread went just as I predicted.

[Scott D]

Bob, nobody believes you predicted the attempted drunkytown threadjack.

[sanantoniosooner]

I'm glad that I was banned for most of this thread.

[Scott D]

I'm glad this thread had crawfish, who has the ability to say 'you are wrong' without sounding offensive or condescending about it :)