More Pat Tillman investigation [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

PhxSooner

11/9/2006, 10:13 AM

I remember that the previous "theory" was more sinister; he had been purposely taken out. This just sounds like a real disaster from the start, not some nefarious plot.

And after the stories I heard from my grandfather (Army Air Corps doctor, South Pacific), this stuff is sadly not uncommon. Horrors of war and all that stuff.

BlondeSoonerGirl

11/9/2006, 10:17 AM

I saw a story on Real Sports on HBO recently about this. Jake Plummer was his very good friend and is all over trying to get the truth. They talked about how the family was lied to, how the story's changed multiple times...it seems very...dirty.

The family just wants the truth. They don't want to blame anyone, they're not after anyone...they just wanna know what really happened.

And Jake Plummer's really pi$$ed about the way it's been handled and he said he's gonna keep it going - keep the story alive - just because Tillman deserves that much. Apparently, he was an extraordinary human being.

Okla-homey

11/9/2006, 10:18 AM

For the record, neither a servicemember, nor his estate, may sue the military. The family may try some negligence cause of action, claiming "loss of consortium" arising out of his death by fratricide, but I'm pretty sure the government's sovereign immunity would bar the suit.

Bottomline, people get killed by "friendly fire" in war. That goes all the way back to the earliest use of projectiles in combat. As an aside, remember that Bannockburn battle scene in "Braveheart" when King Edward ordered his archers to fire on the general melee to their front?

Highly fictionalized I'm sure, because no one wrote "after action reports," but Edward was heard to respond to one of his lieutenants who protested that the arrows would surely kill some of Edward's own troops; "Yes, but they'll hit a lot of the enemy too." :O

usmc-sooner

11/9/2006, 10:24 AM

honestly it's best that his family doesn't know, no good is going to come of it. He died serving his country, looks like friendly fire. He was a special forces member they can't just open those records up to the general public. I know in today's society we think we are entitled to see and know everything, but it's not reality. Jake Plummer is not entitled to anything. I've lost friends in Iraq, I'm not entitled to know all the details nor do I want to. I'll shed a tear and drink a beer to them on this November 10th.

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 10:29 AM

i had a situation "somewhat similar" to this.....a young gal from the tex/mex border killed herself....most likely because her lesbian lover (and supervisor) was leaving iraq and young gal was staying behind, so she locked her lips over the end of her m16 and ended her life

now, the similiarities -- the unit has to tell parents what happened to their child and they'll do it in VERY quick time......what do they say? "your daughter ate a bullet because she couldnt cope?"

no, they told the parents that she died as a result of an accidental shooting

so this is what the parents buried her thinking, she died a hero......so i have to go interview them because now its a full blown suicide investigation

in the 4 months between her death and my meeting the family, the parents have talked to countless army officials.......all probably telling them a slightly different version (hence ALL THE LIES)

its not easy telling a mother her daughter, who she has made a shrine for in the house, has killed herself.......i've done it more times than i can remember

but the point is, that casualty info from the battlefield gets to the NOK very quick and its almost always inaccurate

BeetDigger

11/9/2006, 10:37 AM

The family just wants the truth. They don't want to blame anyone, they're not after anyone...they just wanna know what really happened.

Not really. The brother, who was also a Ranger, is now saying that the war is wrong and that we have no business over there. I don't know if Mom and Dad are aligned, but at least one member of the Tillman family is not just for the truth.

usmc-sooner

11/9/2006, 10:45 AM

In my experiences, people rarely want to hear the truth. They want to hear what they believe.

you could take the two guys who were the closest to him and they'd tell different stories, wouldn't be lies just what they remember seeing. You also have to remember the people that are explaining his death were not the people who were there when he punched out. They are telling the version they put together from the guys in his unit relayed through the chain of command.

and seriously who is Jake Plummer to demand anything? He is and always has been a wacky liberal, even his own team mates will tell you that. Maybe if all the sucky QB's in the NFL got mad they could accomplish something.

BlondeSoonerGirl

11/9/2006, 10:47 AM

I'm sure they're just hurting and trying to deal somehow. I can't relate so I'll just leave it at that.

But yeah - I was kinda surprised that Jake Plummer was all up in the middle of it.

Ike

11/9/2006, 01:01 PM

In my experiences, people rarely want to hear the truth. They want to hear what they believe.

This is certainly true. However, when told what they want to believe, it's usually only a matter of time before they find out the truth, as in JK's story, or through some other method like somebody who was there talking with someone who talks to someone, etc. I submit that the truth hurts a lot more then than it would if it were given at the start. Not that I know for sure that the military could have given his family the truth from the start or not, but once alternate versions of the story start to roll in...from anyone really, the damage has already been done as far as that families trust in the military. At that time, I submit that it is best to just get them the facts and all the facts and move on. But thats just my take.

you could take the two guys who were the closest to him and they'd tell different stories, wouldn't be lies just what they remember seeing. You also have to remember the people that are explaining his death were not the people who were there when he punched out. They are telling the version they put together from the guys in his unit relayed through the chain of command.

and seriously who is Jake Plummer to demand anything? He is and always has been a wacky liberal, even his own team mates will tell you that. Maybe if all the sucky QB's in the NFL got mad they could accomplish something.

I'm not nearly as concerned about what any NFL players think here, but I do feel that this is an issue where the military needs to repair the trust that has been broken (whether rightly or wrongly) with the Tillman family.

But thats just my .02

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 01:12 PM

i'd bet any amount of money that this investigation has two purposes 1) to validate the previous investigation already done, 2) to exonerate anybody from "neg homicide" allegations

i'm fairly certain the army knows what happened.....but the family and everybody else who feels they have a dog in this hunt, are pushing for a "full investigation"

so in comes CID.....and when we investigate a combat related death, its got to have an offense to go with it....otherwise what the hell are we investigating?

so now the CID is investigating "neg homicide"

in the end this will be ruled an unfortunate fratricide case, just like it was in the beginning

Vaevictis

11/9/2006, 01:32 PM

Whoever is pushing these investigations needs to die.

That's a bit harsh; there are members of his family pushing it. The Army didn't exactly tell them the full truth when they reported his death, and now they don't really trust the Army to do so.

Given the circumstances of his death (as we understand them), I think it's understandable that the Army wouldn't want to tell them the whole truth. How do you tell the family that their son/brother/father is dead because somebody on his own side shot him?

And given the circumstances of his death and the initial lack of full disclosure, I think it's understandable that the family wants a full accounting. How do you go back to believing the Army about something like that once it's lied to you? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that somebody's *** is being covered.

It's just bad stuff all around.

Mex

11/9/2006, 01:41 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=tillmanpart1

fadada1

11/9/2006, 02:07 PM

sh*t happen. and bad sh*t happen in war.

very unfortunate, no doubt. but there have been about 3000 "unfortunate incidents" since this started.

usmc-sooner

11/9/2006, 02:24 PM

That's a bit harsh; there are members of his family pushing it. The Army didn't exactly tell them the full truth when they reported his death, and now they don't really trust the Army to do so.

Given the circumstances of his death (as we understand them), I think it's understandable that the Army wouldn't want to tell them the whole truth. How do you tell the family that their son/brother/father is dead because somebody on his own side shot him?

And given the circumstances of his death and the initial lack of full disclosure, I think it's understandable that the family wants a full accounting. How do you go back to believing the Army about something like that once it's lied to you? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that somebody's *** is being covered.

It's just bad stuff all around.

the military is under no obligation to give full disclosure to his family. They have the obligation to file his life insurance claim and to make sure his family gets his benefit. I doubt if anyone's *** is being covered. Rangers are a tight bunch and the watch each other's back, I can guarentee you Tillman wouldn't want someone in his unit charged with neg homicide, or at least I wouldn't.

Personally I don't think they should have let it get out to his family that he got fragged. They should tell them he died valiently serving his country end of story.

BlondeSoonerGirl

11/9/2006, 02:37 PM

Personally I don't think they should have let it get out to his family that he got fragged. They should tell them he died valiently serving his country end of story.

I ask this with all due respect: why is that? If you were 'fragged' why wouldn't you want your family to how it happened? And I'm not saying that the military/government would be at fault or that they would owe anyone anything - I'm just asking about whether or not you'd want your family to know how you died?

Just to save them the pain?

Vaevictis

11/9/2006, 02:40 PM

the military is under no obligation to give full disclosure to his family.

No, they aren't. But it shouldn't be suprising that the family would want it, and think that maybe, just maybe, something is nefarious is going on if they didn't get it initially.

I doubt if anyone's *** is being covered.

I doubt it also. But it's not inconceivable, so it should not be shocking that certain people in his family react the way they do when they've not been told the whole truth.

Personally I don't think they should have let it get out to his family that he got fragged. They should tell them he died valiently serving his country end of story.

Again, I agree. But to say that the family should "die" because they're pushing the investigation is a bit extreme (as jaux suggested), for the reasons I mentioned previously.

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 02:41 PM

Vaevictis

11/9/2006, 02:44 PM

and are apparently pushing for some sort of action against the soldiers that accidentally shot Tillman......thats the shame of it....the Army has a duty to protect them as well

Yep. If it was an accident (and I am not implying that it wasn't), you know the parties responsible already feel bad enough about it already. It doesn't need to be pursued any further than that.

BlondeSoonerGirl

11/9/2006, 02:46 PM

personally i think as tough as it is to tell a family, they have the right to know how their son sacrificed his life for his country

whether its a fratricide or not......i think the difficulty comes in a case like this where the family is not letting go at all, and are apparently pushing for some sort of action against the soldiers that accidentally shot Tillman......thats the shame of it....the Army has a duty to protect them as well

its a really tough situation all around

I'm thinking that if you had a 'military family' that you were confident wouldn't freak out and try to sue anyone or anything this wouldn't really be an issue. You join - you know this could happen and it might not happen in a traditional combative way and that's just the way it is. They know this and they accept it.

But then you might have a family that is ignorant to how all this stuff works and might call Johnny Frockling Cochran and try to sue someone or make the government look bad because they don't agree with their loved one being deployed in the first place (like his brother is supposedly doing).

I guess you can't change the laws depending on who you're dealing with.

Very complicated, indeed...

usmc-sooner

11/9/2006, 03:39 PM

I ask this with all due respect: why is that? If you were 'fragged' why wouldn't you want your family to how it happened? And I'm not saying that the military/government would be at fault or that they would owe anyone anything - I'm just asking about whether or not you'd want your family to know how you died?

Just to save them the pain?

pretty much and what good is going to do. I'd still be dead. I personally don't think I'd want the details of my family members death.

I think it would add feelings of resentment, confusion and a certain bitterness that I wouldn't want them to have because I really believe in what I've done as a Marine, and the men I work with.

Personally I talked with my wife, parents and kids when I got my orders I told them all the stuff you'd normally tell in these situations. It was my wish that if something bad happened that none would feel the need to put down the Marine Corps or the President. I told my wife I'd want her to get over it and move on. Re-marry, at 31 she was too young to live like a widow, and let her know I wanted her to live life and have fun and not dwell on me. You know when you think of me. I wrote my kids letters, and gave them too my wife only to be opened if I didn't come back.

That's just how I would want things to be.

Let's say I'm taking a dump and someone trips and falls discharging a weapon and it kills me. Is that the last image I want my loved ones to have of me. No.

Kinda like jk's example but in that example someone's going to know that she committed suicide when her SGLI doesn't pay up.

BlondeSoonerGirl

11/9/2006, 03:42 PM

Interesting thoughts.

Thanks.

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 03:42 PM

au contraire, SGLI is no fault insurance and pays out on suicide

usmc-sooner

11/9/2006, 03:46 PM

au contraire, SGLI is no fault insurance and pays out on suicide

really, now that I did not know.

I guess it could've been the higher ups trying to keep us straight we were told that it would not pay out if we killed ourselves, died without a seat belt, died in a DUI, or doing anything else illegal.

Actually we were specifically told that if we ever got depressed and pussed out and bit the bullet that our families would not receive SGLI.

I know two Marines who died in a DUI and I don't think they got theirs, I could be wrong.

Sooner Born Sooner Bred

11/9/2006, 03:47 PM

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 03:47 PM

yeah i've been told a dozen or more times that it wouldnt be paid for a number of reasons

not true

i believe prudential is the company that underwrites sgli, or they used to be anyway

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 03:49 PM

Why is it when a family member wants answers they're basically told to STFU and labeled as whack jobs? I would think someone might need that closure whether the death happened in war or in every day life.

it really depends on the nature of the information

i had a woman that just demanded to see her dead husbands remains, i begged and begged her not to do it

she insisted

she regretted it later

another one begged and begged to see the suicide letter........BIG mistake.....it was not a "surviving wife" friendly letter

Tillman was an INSTANT hero......the whole country had ceremonies for him, he symbolized the new war on terror

and then in an instant all of that is gone......would you rather just remember your departed one as a hero? or a sap who got shot by his own side?

Sooner Born Sooner Bred

11/9/2006, 03:52 PM

I don't think it's going to change their idea of him as a hero. I think they just want a straight answer, not one that's seemingly full of holes.

usmc-sooner

11/9/2006, 03:53 PM

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 03:53 PM

he got shot during combat

period, end of story

Sooner Born Sooner Bred

11/9/2006, 03:54 PM

And FWIW, JK, I do not envy the job that you did for so many years. When my brother was in the Navy, he opened a supply closet on Christmas Day to find that one of his fellow crew members had capped himself in the head.

Sucks to be the person that had to tell the family.

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 03:55 PM

so jk would it pay out for dying in a DUI wreck? or died doing something illegal? I've heard of guys who killed their girlfriends/wives and then themselves, your telling me they still pay out for these? I'm just curious.

yeah it will pay out on a dwi death.......i remember during an in processing, the general at fort sill had very strict orders on motorcycle usage.....if you died without a road guard vest on, NO SGLI

not true

and yes, they still pay out on the SGLI.....if they kill their girlfriend wives, then thats a whole other policy

but on suicide......everytime, $$$$

jk the sooner fan

11/9/2006, 03:56 PM

Sucks to be the person that had to tell the family.

there is nothing worse than talking to a family just after they've gotten the news

i've done it too many times..

usmc-sooner

11/9/2006, 03:57 PM

I don't think it's going to change their idea of him as a hero. I think they just want a straight answer, not one that's seemingly full of holes.

SBSB it's not going to do them any good.

and most of these stories are naturally going to be so full of holes you could drive a truck through. People get really freaking fuzzy about what they see and hear during war. It's why people get fragged. They get so pumped up with adrenaline and they think they see, hear, smell things that aren't there. Plus when bullets are flying people are taking cover, moving and getting down, thinks move so fast, your so scared, full of adrenaline you probably could get a 100 different stories on how one soldier fell.

Sooner Born Sooner Bred

11/9/2006, 03:58 PM

Oh I know. I just hate it for everyone involved.

usmc-sooner

11/9/2006, 04:03 PM

I should not have posted that.
I'm angry that resources and time are being spent on a soldier who is dead; resources better spent on killing the bad guys. Our armed forces are stretched thin as is. In combat you don't have time to grieve over the body of your buddy. That's why we have veterans groups and reunions and history books. If I was in war now, I would tell those investigators to stow their questions and grab a rifle. They're just doing their job, I know. But good god folks, let's get this thing won and then anguish over the dead and figure out how we screwed up. Some folks wonder why I use the acronym, REMFS. This is why. Not a good term and I apologize to those it offends but it helps me deal. Thanks.

I think everyone knows what you meant.

I think one person took it out of context.