Venables

[ADs_Agent]

With all the talent this guy has on defense, and as sucky as a performance that we are getting out of the defense, how does this guy have a job coaching OU football?

[FlatheadSooner]

Well, I guess you've got to give the guy some room considering the last six years, or so, that he's had success.

But, Holy Shiza, the last three games have gotten progressively worse and it seems like our D has their f'in arms cut off. Maybe they need to go and have the OU wrestling coach give a 1-week clinic on f'in take-downs. OUr D seems to be in position and many times make the hit but, for the f'in life of me, cannot watch their belly button and wrap up around their f'in legs. Call the wrestling coach and learn how to take down.

:mad:

[Ark_Sooner]

The D hasn't been the same since M Stoops left. Don't know if it's Venables or the talent of the players or both. I know that Pelini bolted after one year and is doing a lot better at LSU than he did at OU.

[Blue]

Auburn and Lsu, hell even Oregon look good on D. Us, not so much.

It looks like we have 7 guys on the field.

[tulsaoilerfan]

You guys aren't even close in assessing the talent on defense; other than Rufus and Reggie, who exactly on that side of the ball is what you would call a playmaker? The front 4 has been getting their asses kicked, Latimer does make tackles but doesn't have much speed, the other corner whether it be DJ or Lendy is getting torched on a weekly basis(unless Walker is playing), and the safeties are average, at best and miss a ton of tackles; the problem isn't coaching, it's recruiting

[ADs_Agent]

he's got talent, he's got speed, and tackling is something that good coaching improves. Oklahoma got royally hosed, but had our D stopped Oregon on those last two drives, the terrible calls wouldn't have mattered. With all that said, BOOMER SOONER, and let's go win the Big XII

[sooner969]

Vulnerables is completely confused. I'm not sure he's recovered fro getting his *** handed to him by USC yet. I hate to say it but OU does not have the coaching staff to win a championship at this point in time. Wether or not these guys can make the changes nescessary to get there is highly suspect.

[william_brasky]

You guys aren't even close in assessing the talent on defense; other than Rufus and Reggie, who exactly on that side of the ball is what you would call a playmaker? The front 4 has been getting their asses kicked, Latimer does make tackles but doesn't have much speed, the other corner whether it be DJ or Lendy is getting torched on a weekly basis(unless Walker is playing), and the safeties are average, at best and miss a ton of tackles; the problem isn't coaching, it's recruiting

I agree with that.

[DrZaius]

All I know is that since Mike left our defense is getting worse and worse every season. There is a problem somewhere and it needs to get fixed.

[ADs_Agent]

hypothetical question to ponder,

if Mike loses his job at Arizona, will he come back to be the defensive coordinator for Oklahoma?

[letsroll]

no doubt the stoops brothers were a coaching force, but i am afraid the only time we will see them together again will be in the pros.

[sooner969]

Let's all hope IF that does happen he won't be adverse to being a sooner again. We could use him.

[the_ouskull]

Recruiting wasn't a problem when Mike Stoops was turning 2* recruits into All-Americans.

I think the question merits asking. Our defense hasn't been "OU caliber" this year, for sure, and, if you look back on it, the past couple of years now. They're getting beaten to their spots, and they're not making the tackles they used to make routinely.

I hope Mike Stoops has an awful year at Arizona... :D

the_ouskull

[TheGodfather889]

Brent Venables needs to be fired. He hasn't been successful since he took over Mike Stoops' duties.

[FaninAma]

The honeymoon is definitely over for Brent.

[Blue]

no doubt the stoops brothers were a coaching force, but i am afraid the only time we will see them together again will be in the pros.


I've always been a fan of Venables, BUT...


...will they be coaching for Green Bay...?

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:zm7q-5rlVLzpzM:http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/BDX/BDX125/bxp27929.jpg

Get it? Swiss Cheese.

[jbstrick]

The D hasn't been the same since M Stoops left.

Mike Stoops' defense has not been the same either since he left.

[ADs_Agent]

Venables can't cut the mustard and so we need to find someone who can

[GottaHavePride]

You guys aren't even close in assessing the talent on defense; other than Rufus and Reggie, who exactly on that side of the ball is what you would call a playmaker? The front 4 has been getting their asses kicked, Latimer does make tackles but doesn't have much speed, the other corner whether it be DJ or Lendy is getting torched on a weekly basis(unless Walker is playing), and the safeties are average, at best and miss a ton of tackles; the problem isn't coaching, it's recruiting

I disagree. I thought the D looked like they hadn't watched any film on Oregon at all and had no clue what Oregon was about to do. that's bad preparation, and bad preparation is bad coaching.

[sooneron]

Recruiting wasn't a problem when Mike Stoops was turning 2* recruits into All-Americans.


Or trying to turn Bassey into TRRW.

[mightysooner]

I don't think Venables is the guy for the job either and I haven't for 2 years now. All we've seen out of his defenses are units that can't cover anybody and always let their opponents back in the game.
OU is not a place for Bob to help his buddies with career pathing. Bob needs to go out and get proven coaches that can get the job done instead of promoting schmucks from within who have no experience. He's the head coach at a football power, not a career guidance counselor. Chuck Long was worthless as an OC and Venables is proving to be his counterpart on the defensive side of the ball. It's time for us to go get somebody with a track record.......Bob.

[critical_phil]

this board gets ****ing dumber by the day.

really.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

It's time for us to go get somebody with a track record

Uhhh, like the clownshoes messiah of the Nebraska Blackshirts that brought his on your heels, we're gonna keep it underneath and suck the paint off the field Cover 2 named Bo Pellini?

[mightysooner]

Uhhh, like the clownshoes messiah of the Nebraska Blackshirts that brought his on your heels, we're gonna keep it underneath and suck the paint off the field Cover 2 named Bo Pellini?

Pellini is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Bob brouhgt him in for a year because he was fired from Nebraska. Stoops needs to quit looking out for his buddies and go find somebody who can get the job done. I'm a little tired of it......

[sooner969]

I'd settle for a guy that could field a team that acted like they knew what a ****ing film study and a scout team was. These guys look completely lost and they start the game on their heels. The problem is Vulnerables and BJ. They're the picture of ineptitude.

Oh, and the clownshoes messiah just fielded a defensive unit that held Auburn to 7 points. Perhaps he wasn't the problem after all.

[The Consumate Showman]

You guys are blaming Venables...hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the buck stops with the the head coach. He has a head set too and he is the final say so on ALL of the calls. Stoops, for some reason I can;t figure out at ALL, seems to have become more and more conservative on both sides of the ball. Just sayin', take a closer look at our staff before you throw just 1 guy to the wolves out there...

[TheGodfather889]

The defense every week just looks like they haven't watched tape on these teams. They looked lost out there. With the tackling issues: they're trying to bring guys down with just regular arm tackling. I didn't like it that they kept on using a soft prevent defense. These guys have talent but they're not being coached well.

[Blue]

You guys are blaming Venables...hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the buck stops with the the head coach. He has a head set too and he is the final say so on ALL of the calls. Stoops, for some reason I can;t figure out at ALL, seems to have become more and more conservative on both sides of the ball. Just sayin', take a closer look at our staff before you throw just 1 guy to the wolves out there...


We're not getting rid of Stoops. He's the "FACE" of the program. But with recruiting the way it is, we have got to have superior coordinators and coaches. Bottom Line.

[Egeo]

i used to think the coaching blame was BS

but we blitz to much and were getting killed cause opponents are catching us blitzing and then we run nothing but zone defense it seems
we've been getting slaughtered on underneath passes since 2004 against omar jacobs
and then this year our guys are peeking into the backfield too much and getting torched short and deep

with our talent, lets run some man press or something sometimes
how about some cover 2 man (at least every once ina while)
and then on offense.... peterson has 3 guys waiting on him in the "hole" while oregon's spread offense is leaving stewart with huge gaps to run through

something has to change (starting with pac 10 refs)

[arlington]

Its been 3 games now so maybe we should all come around to the fact that this defense is highly overated..Break things down and for every area we seem to be pretty good at(mainly DE depth), we are equally either too young to be differencemakers(secondary) or lack size/talent(Defensive tackles)..Maybe we underated the job Dusty/Remi did last year taking up blocks and clogging the middle..I think we do have defensive gameplan problems which are best shown in how awful we seem to start these games and we also cant seem to recognize who our best guys are anymore either..Nic Harris should have been starting at Free safety from the jump..In limited time he has shown more ability than Debo has in 3 years..And how can you play 2 undersized tackles TOGETHER? And its game 3 and how many cornerbacks are we going to see this year? Its like they dont have a plan, just throw guys out there , close your eyes and pray.

[Texas Golfer]

Venables is proving, to me anyway, that Mike was the brains behind our great defensive years.

Onside kick, notwithstanding, how does our defense, knowing that they're going to be passing the ball, allow two TDs in the last three minutes? How in the hell do you allow anyone to get behind you in this situation?

It's clear to me why Venables hasn't been offered a head coaching job anywhere.

[rainiersooner]

Venables is proving, to me anyway, that Mike was the brains behind our great defensive years.

Onside kick, notwithstanding, how does our defense, knowing that they're going to be passing the ball, allow two TDs in the last three minutes? How in the hell do you allow anyone to get behind you in this situation?

It's clear to me why Venables hasn't been offered a head coaching job anywhere.

I'd like to hear someone counter this. Maybe we do miss dusty; but its been three games and we still can't get any pressure.

[Octavian]

If not for two games worth of monumental officiating ****ups, OU would be riding a 10 game winning streak and this conversation wouldn't be going on...

Can our defense play better? Gawd, I hope so...

But let's keep it in perspective.

[OldGuyinStudentSection]

Pelini coached a defense that overachieved at Nebraska. He comes to OU and is scapegoated for all of the defensive woes in Venables' first year as DC. Bo goes to LSU and proceeds to trot out the best defense in the NCAA with underclassmen this year.

Venables takes what is touted to be OU's most talent laden defense and gives up 400 yards per game.

Playmakers you say? The great majority of those playmakers prior to Venables reign as DC would not have been given a scholarship today. Sad but true.

Venables was a success as a LB coach and recruiter but is a failure as a bigtime defensive coordinator.

[Blue]

Pelini goes to LSU and produces the best defense in the NCAA with underclassmen.

Venables takes OU's most talent laden defense and gives up 400 yards per game.

Playmakers you say? The great majority of those playmakers prior to Venables reign as DC would not have been given a scholarship today. Sad but true.

Venables was a success as a LB coach and recruiter but is a failure as a bigtime defensive coordinator.

I believe you.

[rhombic21]

Our defense is very safety intense. The safeties are what make it tick.

When we had Roy Williams, JT Thatcher, Bradon Everage, and Brodney Pool, it looked great, because those guys made big plays. When you have Darrien Williams and Jason Carter, it doesn't look nearly as good, because those guys don't tackle as well, and don't cover as well.

At some point you guys need to be honest about our talent level. We have issues at LB (Zach Latimer has played poorly for extended time in 3 straight games), Safety, cornerback (Marcus Walker and Reggie Smith are the only guys who have played well consistently) and, to a lesser extent, DT.

Who on this defense compares to Roy Williams, Rocky Calmus, Teddy Lehman, Tommy Harris, Dusty Dvoracek, Brodney Pool, or Derrick Strait? Right now, nobody does.

The talent level on defense is pretty good with the underclassmen (Reggie Smith, Granger, McCoy, Bennett, Reynolds, Harris), but we don't have anybody on this defense right now that would even be drafted in the first two rounds of the NFL draft. Rufus is a nice college linebacker, but he's not a Bosworth, Lehman, or Calmus. He's good, but he's not dominant. Reggie Smith has a world of talent, but it's his first year at Corner. Ah You, Birdine, and Thibs are all solid DEs, but are not dominating like Cody did.

It's easy to blame the coaches, but at some point people need to recognize that this OU team still hasn't been able to replinish the talent that we lost off the 2003 and 2004 teams.

[OldGuyinStudentSection]

Blaming the talent? Let's be real about this. The players are only as good as the coaches teaching them the fundamentals and schemes to further help them succeed.

2 of those 4 safeties you mentioned never made an NFL roster.

Torrance Marshall never started in the NFL. Rocky Calmus and Lance Mitchell are out of the league. Lehman started out strong but has been injured.

Derrick Strait and Woolfolk are backups.

This OU squad is LOADED with talent compared to the 2000-02 teams. Where would Corey Heinecke be on the depth chart of the '06 team? I'd put him at #6 or #7 at DE. He was a dependable performer.

Our defense has NEVER missed so many tackles and been so out of position to make plays as this year. At some point you have to stop blaming all of the players on the field and look to where the real talent deficiency exists: on the sidelines. Venables and BJW are not coaches that will take OU's defense to elite status.

[Egeo]

bob stoops had a completely different defensive philosophy at kstate...

[rhombic21]

If you honestly think that Derrick Strait wouldn't be OU's #1 corner right now, you're insane. What about Andre Woolfolk and Michael Thompson? What about Antonio Perkins as a Nickel Back/3rd Corner? Torrence Marshall didn't play in the NFL, but you can't tell me that he wasn't 100 times more athletic than Zach Latimer. Teddy Lehman and Rocky Calmus won the Butkus award - Calmus finished in the top 3 two years in a row. And you're right that 2 of the 4 safeties didn't go to the NFL. Thatcher had a weight issue, and Everage had shoulder problems. But if you think that either Jason Carter or Darrien Williams have NFL in their future, you're ridiculous. Thatcher and Everage were MILES better than Carter or Williams. Harris is potentially a stud, but he's only a sophomore at this point.

Who at DT do you want to argue is as talented as Harris or Dvoracek?

Who at DE do you want to argue is as talented as Dan Cody?

OU's problem on defense is that we lack the kinds of talent at DT, LB, CB, and Safety that we used to have. Our DEs are arguably better than they were in the Mike Stoops era, because of depth, but that's the only position where you can look and say that OU has guys who are better than the people they replaced.

Seriously, let's go back to the 2003 defense. How many players on today's roster do you think would start on that defense? I can't think of one. Maybe Ah You or Thibs over Jonathan Jackson, and maybe Pleasant over Pasha Jackson (and given how often we use 5 DBs, that's barely even a starter), and I guess you could make a case for Reggie Smith over Antonio Perkins (although I don't think so at this point in his career), but that's it.

[gnostic19]

You guys aren't even close in assessing the talent on defense; other than Rufus and Reggie, who exactly on that side of the ball is what you would call a playmaker? The front 4 has been getting their asses kicked, Latimer does make tackles but doesn't have much speed, the other corner whether it be DJ or Lendy is getting torched on a weekly basis(unless Walker is playing), and the safeties are average, at best and miss a ton of tackles; the problem isn't coaching, it's recruiting


Re recruiting...why does a D-I powerhouse have to resort to starting a CB that was once a RB or a WR?

[rhombic21]

Re recruiting...why does a D-I powerhouse have to resort to starting a CB that was once a RB or a WR?
You mean like Andre Woolfolk?

If Marcus Walker hadn't gotten shoulder problems early in his career, he'd be a shut-down corner right now, and our CB situation would be looking solid.

[OldGuyinStudentSection]

I'm not saying those players weren't great college players since they obviously were, and yes, Derrick Strait as the finished product of Mike Stoops would absolutely be the #1 CB on this team. But, what if he had instead been the prodigy of Bobby Jack Wright? That is what I'm saying. Our talented players will not be the impact players they could become under the current defensive regime. OU has brought more talented high school players into the program in the last 3 years than at any time since Barry Switzer was roaming the sidelines. They're just not being developed as much as they could be.

Marcus Walker played over half the snaps at CB today. He'll solidify the field corner position but IMO we need new leadership to help him get to the level of those Sooner legends you mentioned.

Also, Brandon Everage was an option QB in high school. He made the transition to defense pretty well.

[SoonerGM]

i dont understand, what is wrong with BJW? weren't tommie harris and dusty the direct products of BJW?

[OldGuyinStudentSection]

No, they were direct products of Jackie Shipp.

[rhombic21]

Aren't Reggie Smith and Marcus Walker BJW products? Isn't Nic Harris, who had 2 interceptions today? Look at what BJW did last year with a pair of guys who hadn't ever contributed at a high level (Joke and Bassey), along with a converted HB (Wolfe), a true freshman (Smith) and a converted corner (Williams) at FS , and a converted LB (Baker)and true freshman (Harris) at SS.

Reggie Smith is only a Sophomore, and it's his first year at Corner. I don't see how you can be upset with the way that BJW has gotten him to play thus far. Walker, as you mentioned, played great, and if he stays healthy, our CB situation looks really good. I think you grossly over-estimate the talent of Holmes and Wolfe, if you think those guys are better talents than Woolfolk or Perkins. And a lot of CB, particularly in our scheme, is about instincts and technique, not just physical talent. Those guys (particularly Strait and Woolfolk) didn't have all of the physical tools, but they had great ball skills, and they had tremendous instincts/field intelligence. And if you think that Jason Carter or Darrien Williams have anywhere near the physical talent that Bradon Everage, Brodney Pool, and to a lesser extent Donte Nicholson had, you're being ridiculous.

By the way, don't forget that Eric Bassey at Safety was a Mike Stoops product, and we all know how that worked out. And don't forget how bad our secondary looked against aTm and OSU in 2002.

You're kidding yourself if you think OU has as much talent on defense this year or last year as we did in 2000-2003.

I agree that the looked bad at times today, and the missed tackles and coverage breakdowns is certainly cause for concern. I'm just saying that it's not really fair to compare Venables to M. Stoops or Pellini, because he isn't playing with the same deck of cards. Our defense is still very young at a lot of key positions, and at other key positions, the veterans that we thought we could depend on, just aren't answering the bell.

What's killing the defense right now is the play of the Safeties. They just aren't making any plays, and are missing tackles in the open field. For this defense to work, you need playmakers at safety, and we don't have that. Perhaps Keenan Clayton and Nic Harris can develop into those kinds of players at some point, but right now they just aren't there yet, and that's what's really killing the defense. Yes, the tackling needs to get better overall, and our corners need to play a little better, especially in terms of not giving up big plays on obvious passing downs, but I'm telling you that our scheme looks a ton better when those safeties are coming down and tackling people like they should, and making plays on the football in the secondary.

[Blue]

Aren't Reggie Smith and Marcus Walker BJW products? Isn't Nic Harris, who had 2 interceptions today? Look at what BJW did last year with a pair of guys who hadn't ever contributed at a high level (Joke and Bassey), along with a converted HB (Wolfe), a true freshman (Smith) and a converted corner (Williams) at FS , and a converted LB (Baker)and true freshman (Harris) at SS.

Reggie Smith is only a Sophomore, and it's his first year at Corner. I don't see how you can be upset with the way that BJW has gotten him to play thus far. Walker, as you mentioned, played great, and if he stays healthy, our CB situation looks really good. I think you grossly over-estimate the talent of Holmes and Wolfe, if you think those guys are better talents than Woolfolk or Perkins. And a lot of CB, particularly in our scheme, is about instincts and technique, not just physical talent. Those guys (particularly Strait and Woolfolk) didn't have all of the physical tools, but they had great ball skills, and they had tremendous instincts/field intelligence. And if you think that Jason Carter or Darrien Williams have anywhere near the physical talent that Bradon Everage, Brodney Pool, and to a lesser extent Donte Nicholson had, you're being ridiculous.

By the way, don't forget that Eric Bassey at Safety was a Mike Stoops product, and we all know how that worked out. And don't forget how bad our secondary looked against aTm and OSU in 2002.

You're kidding yourself if you think OU has as much talent on defense this year or last year as we did in 2000-2003.

I agree that the looked bad at times today, and the missed tackles and coverage breakdowns is certainly cause for concern. I'm just saying that it's not really fair to compare Venables to M. Stoops or Pellini, because he isn't playing with the same deck of cards. Our defense is still very young at a lot of key positions, and at other key positions, the veterans that we thought we could depend on, just aren't answering the bell.

What's killing the defense right now is the play of the Safeties. They just aren't making any plays, and are missing tackles in the open field. For this defense to work, you need playmakers at safety, and we don't have that. Perhaps Keenan Clayton and Nic Harris can develop into those kinds of players at some point, but right now they just aren't there yet, and that's what's really killing the defense. Yes, the tackling needs to get better overall, and our corners need to play a little better, especially in terms of not giving up big plays on obvious passing downs, but I'm telling you that our scheme looks a ton better when those safeties are coming down and tackling people like they should, and making plays on the football in the secondary.


Brent!? Is that you?!

[OldGuyinStudentSection]

Yes, and Mack Brown always blamed his defense's breakdowns on youth until he got his pal Carl Reese to resign and he brought in a competent DC in Greg Robinson.

Venables/BJW are working with every bit the "deck of cards" that Mike did. Derrick Strait was a freshman while Michael Thompson and Roy Williams were sophomores during OU's national championship. Undrafted seniors Ontei Jones and JT Thatcher (Mosi Tatupu Award winner) filled out the defensive backfield. Overachievers. Only Williams has had a prominent NFL career after the group was fantastic at OU.

Why? Playing as a disciplined, fundamentally sound team does not always translate into NFL stardom. This team has NFL talent in spades. Like the '04 DB group coached by Venables that had 3 NFL draft picks, it won't be as good as its potential.

[zeke]

The OldGuyinStudentSection is absolutly right.
Disiplined, fundamentally sound teams win games. Right now the defense is niether...and while we are talking about disipined & fundamentals, what the heck is the deal with the penalties we commit.
While BV and BJW have done a poor job so far this season getting the defense ready to play, the buck stops with Bob. Its his team & he is responsible for it, all parts of it.
I'm not saying Bob needs to go, but Bob needs to do something about what is lacking.

[Scott D]

Pellini is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Bob brouhgt him in for a year because he was fired from Nebraska. Stoops needs to quit looking out for his buddies and go find somebody who can get the job done. I'm a little tired of it......

seems to me that Pellini is doing a pretty good job over there at LSU....yeah, he was really the problem in his one year here :rolleyes:

[rhombic21]

Hey, how did Pellini's defense do in last year's SEC title game? Just wondering.

[ADs_Agent]

what does it matter how they performed on the pro level? Are they playing in the pro's for Oklahoma university? As long as they cut the mustard in the college level, pro doesn't matter. They are student-athletes and should perform as such. The argument of "they didn't make it in the pro's" is stupid. Calmus, Marshall, Strait, Williams etc were great college players and I would love to have some players with that kind of intensity back on the field.

[OUmillenium]

Auburn and Lsu, hell even Oregon look good on D. Us, not so much.

It looks like we have 7 guys on the field.

Yep, I was thinking during the game...man it looks like we are playing defense with only 9 guys. 7 sounds more accurate. If an RB gets through the line, its like an automatic 20+ yard run. Strange...:confused:

[ADs_Agent]

the defense looked flustered, and spun around like they were lost.

[FormerSoonerProf]

The defense suckked... that is all. Otherwise Sooners would have won... bad calls or not...

[OUmillenium]

Yep, what FSP said ^

[BIG_IKE]

i dont understand, what is wrong with BJW? weren't tommie harris and dusty the direct products of BJW?

Tommie Harris is a product of Ellison High School in Killeen,Texas.

I think you guys are putting too much of the players value and worth on the coaches. These coaches dont teach these guys how to play. They provide a sytem for them to play in. These guys LEARNED how to play well before they ever came to OU. The responsibility of the OU coaches is to create a scheme and instruct the players in the proper way to execute that scheme. A Division 1 College coach should NOT be wasting time teaching guys how to tackle. and do basic stuff people should have learned before they get a scholarship...come on, be serious.

[ADs_Agent]

Tommie Harris is a product of Ellison High School in Killeen,Texas.

I think you guys are putting too much of the players value and worth on the coaches. These coaches dont teach these guys how to play. They provide a sytem for them to play in. These guys LEARNED how to play well before they ever came to OU. The responsibility of the OU coaches is to create a scheme and instruct the players in the proper way to execute that scheme. A Division 1 College coach should NOT be wasting time teaching guys how to tackle. and do basic stuff people should have learned before they get a scholarship...come on, be serious.

a good coach knows how to intertwine fundamentals and a system.

[CtheB]

Two things: 1.) Venables doesn't have the talent that M Stoops had, and 22.) Venables doesn't have a Venables like M Stoops had.

[ADs_Agent]

I disagree, there is speed and great talent on the defensive side of the ball, remember these are all million star athlets, they just need to be coached.

[TrophyCollector]

Not sure it's all talent and lack of aggression. We seem to blitz either 2 LBs or 1 LB and a safety on every 3rd (or 4th)down and 3 or more yards to go. The blitzes are never faked and you can always spot who is coming well before the blitz. That's why we get a CB 1 on 1 who get's tourched on most of those downs.

Didn't we used to mix up our blitzes? Run a zone blitz? In some way mix up or disguise a blitz? Get pressure with just the front 4?

It seemed like yesterday late in the game, we did drop back in zone coverage a bit and our SS came up with 2 picks. Other than that it was blitz, don't get there, get burnt.

So I'm just saying that in addition to a lack of quality depth (i.e. recruiting) and exceptionally poor fundamentals (i.e. how to tackle) that it seems our D play calling is also very suspect.

[ADs_Agent]

so in other words the D Sucks

[rhombic21]

I want to know who these super athletic freaks that you guys are talking about are. Roy Williams was a freak of nature who could hit like a linebacker and cover like a safety, which is why he's currently going to pro-bowls. Brodney Pool had a 40 something inch vertical. Teddy Lehman ran a sub 4.4 40 time as a linebacker. Tommie Harris was a 300 pound guy who could run like a DE. Who on this defense do you think possesses those kinds of athletic gifts.

And let's also not forget that the defense did hold Oregon, which happens to have one of the best offenses in the nation, to 10 points over a 51 minute span between the first quarter and the final minute and a half of the ballgame. And it probably would have been 3 points if Marcus Walker doesn't get cramps during the second half, which is why Lendy Holmes was in the game on their 4th down TD that made it 20-20.

The defense simply ran out of gas at the end. And we probably made the mistake of going to a conservative defense too early, on their second to last drive.

Let's also not forget that it was Brent Venables and BJW who held this Oregon team to 14 points in the Holiday bowl.

[MamaMia]

You guys aren't even close in assessing the talent on defense; other than Rufus and Reggie, who exactly on that side of the ball is what you would call a playmaker? The front 4 has been getting their asses kicked, Latimer does make tackles but doesn't have much speed, the other corner whether it be DJ or Lendy is getting torched on a weekly basis(unless Walker is playing), and the safeties are average, at best and miss a ton of tackles; the problem isn't coaching, it's recruitingDont the coaches do the recruiting?

[SoonerLB]

I agree with tulsaoilerfan, the talent level is not what we have become used to in the past. And the performance on the field, well, from watching Venables reactions on the sidelines, they are not doing what they have been coached to do it would seem.
We all know they have been taught and told to wrap up when they tackle, but I have noticed on several occassions that a couple of our linebackers think they can just knock someone down, not even raising their arms.
And I'm pretty sure he has not told the D backs to lay off or let opposing receivers run on by them. It takes not only physical talent, but brains too, and the defensive IQ is a little questionable IMO.

[okcusooner]

The D hasn't been the same since M Stoops left. Don't know if it's Venables or the talent of the players or both. I know that Pelini bolted after one year and is doing a lot better at LSU than he did at OU.

The loss OU took with Mike Stoops leaving has progressively became more obvious. Our defense hasn't been the same since he took off, i couldn't agree more.

[Newbomb Turk]

Dont the coaches do the recruiting?

heh

[tulsaoilerfan]

I'm not saying those players weren't great college players since they obviously were, and yes, Derrick Strait as the finished product of Mike Stoops would absolutely be the #1 CB on this team. But, what if he had instead been the prodigy of Bobby Jack Wright? That is what I'm saying. Our talented players will not be the impact players they could become under the current defensive regime. OU has brought more talented high school players into the program in the last 3 years than at any time since Barry Switzer was roaming the sidelines. They're just not being developed as much as they could be.

Marcus Walker played over half the snaps at CB today. He'll solidify the field corner position but IMO we need new leadership to help him get to the level of those Sooner legends you mentioned.

Also, Brandon Everage was an option QB in high school. He made the transition to defense pretty well.
I will agree that the Sooners have brought in a ton of talented players, but being a high school stud doesn't always equal college stud; some of the studs have transferred to other schools and some of the others have just not lived up to the hype; position wise, the only player on the D that could possibly start for previous Stoops teams would be Reggie Smith, and maybe Rufus, so how can this team be more talented than previous ones? I just don't see it

[tulsaoilerfan]

I disagree, there is speed and great talent on the defensive side of the ball, remember these are all million star athlets, they just need to be coached.
You are kidding about the speed, right? Collectively, this is the slowest looking group of linebackers and DB's I think i've ever seen at OU

[westcoast_sooner]

IMO, you never go away from a defense that is working. Why switch to a "prevent" in the latter stages of the game, if you haven't been playing that way before. It didn't appear to me that the guys were out of gas, it looked to me like we were just not physical enough. Our front four were being blown off the ball like a DivII defense. UO seemed faster than we were, especially in the first half and late in the game.

[goingoneight]

Why don't we all just ignore OUr defense looking like something that belongs in Mack Brown's program and continue to let Baylor, Oklahoma State, Kansas and UAB's of this world continue to rack up close games and victories on us. They really are the "best defense of the Stoops era," aren't they? For the comment about "we wouldn't be having this conversation if it wasn't for bad officiating," you tell me how many Roy Williams's it would have taken to tackle a skinny Oregon receiver, and then tell me why seven of our starters couldn't do it.

Venables does recruit big-time talent that everyone else tends to drool over, and always has them in superb physical shape, but since when does the University of Oklahoma not know what an option, wishbone or a reverse is??? I don't want BV fired, he has the highest of respect among OUr players, offensive and defensive, he recruits well. I do think it seems obvious something needs to be tweaked and not ignored. I'm sick and tired of hearing Sooner faithful kiss up to this garbage we have called a defense lately... even if there is only a few of them left. The complaints are legit, like it or not, folks...

[wishbonesooner]

"A Division 1 College coach should NOT be wasting time teaching guys how to tackle. and do basic stuff people should have learned before they get a scholarship...come on, be serious."
I could not disagree more. The coaching of fundamentals in high school has been lacking for nearly 20 years. You do have to coach kids in fundamental football, even at a powerhouse. I think that's what Mike did better than anyone.
I posted last year that I thought the USC debacle was evident in the TCU game. I got soundly bashed, I think it was from Dean, for my trouble. From that night on, I think we play not to lose.

[Jewstin]

Not sure it's all talent and lack of aggression. We seem to blitz either 2 LBs or 1 LB and a safety on every 3rd (or 4th)down and 3 or more yards to go. The blitzes are never faked and you can always spot who is coming well before the blitz. That's why we get a CB 1 on 1 who get's tourched on most of those downs.

This is a big part of it. There is no variation in the blitz packages we bring. Everybody on the planet knows on 3rd and 4th down, OU's bringing the house.

Not to mention that vaunted defensive line has virtually no pass rush whatsoever. I haven't heard Ah You's name called once this year, except when he missed an easy tackle on Stewart's touchdown run in the first quarter. He tried to strip the ball. Nothing more.

I was going to point this out as well, but it seems someone else has ... the play of the safeties is probably the biggest factor. Keenan Clayton was being hailed as the next Roy Williams in all the campus publications, but I think he's proven that comparison is simply delusional.

If you guys think back to all the big games where we went up against a QB as mobile as Dixon (the '03 and '04 Vince Young years not withstanding), you'll see we've always had a problem in these sort of situations. Those great defenses of ours gave up big points in 2000 at aTm and in 2002 (hell, even 2004). I know exactly why Nic Harris got torched ... he was probably worried about Dixon pulling it down and making another 20 yard scramble for a TD.

I know our defenses seemed unstoppable under Mike Stoops, but there were games where we brainfarted, just like now.

We also benefitted from Mike Stoops' brilliant play calling. I think this is probably the biggest difference between then and now. I think Venables prepares really well prior to games, but on the field, he is not a good defensive mind (KState in '03 and USC in the Orange Bowl come to mind).

[rhombic21]

I just don't think it's fair to pass judgement on Venables right now, because I see a lack of athletes at key positions (namely MLB and Safety) that are responsible for a lot of our problems. Harris is a good athlete at Safety, I'll give you that, but he's also a true sophomore, so you expect some growing pains. Keenan Clayton looks like he could potentially be a good player, but he's only a redshirt freshman, and he's not there yet. Lofton may ultimately be the answer at MLB, but again, he's only a sophomore, and we lack depth at OLB because of the Reynolds injury, so we may not be able to play him over Latimer.

Let's give this defense some time to grow up a little bit before we rant and rave about how terrible BV is as a coach. And again, our defense played very well for a big part of the game. We didn't outscore them 27-7 in the first 28 minutes of the second half without playing some solid defense.

If Walker stays healthy, then I think that alone will make our defense a lot better. We looked pretty damn good during the second and third quarters when he played most of the snaps opposite Reggie.

And let's also be realistic. Oregon has a damn good offensive scheme and a bunch of nice athletes. We helped them out with some poor plays, but those guys are probably better (offensively) than anyone that we'll play in the Conference (possible exception being Texas).

[OldGuyinStudentSection]

How is it not fair? He's in his third year as DC, and he was here as a co-defensive coordinator for the 5 years before that.

[rhombic21]

How is it not fair? He's in his third year as DC, and he was here as a co-defensive coordinator for the 5 years before that.
Because the talent level right now is not where it used to be, partly because we graduated a bunch of guys that were big contributers over the past 3-4 years.

[OldGuyinStudentSection]

Who aside from Dvoracek and Ingram who were difference makers on defense? The rest returned with a year's experience, plus we got back Birdine. Graduation is a part of college football. That doesn't stop other programs from trotting out a top 10 defense every year.

This discussion has become eerily similar to those about Florida State's offense. Mark Richt leaves for Georgia after the 2000 season, FSU's offense sinks under Jeff Bowden's leadership and the failure are blamed on a lack of offensive playmakers. Same song and dance.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Who aside from Dvoracek and Ingram who were difference makers on defense? The rest returned with a year's experience, plus we got back Birdine. Graduation is a part of college football. That doesn't stop other programs from trotting out a top 10 defense every year.

This discussion has become eerily similar to those about Florida State's offense. Mark Richt leaves for Georgia after the 2000 season, FSU's offense sinks under Jeff Bowden's leadership and the failure are blamed on a lack of offensive playmakers. Same song and dance.
In case we all forget, the defense last season was, statistically, the worst since 99 even with Dusty and Ingram; so, is the problem the players or the coaches? I would like to hear the input of NFL scouts as to exactly which players on our 2 deep on Defense have any kind of future on Sundays; i'm not guessing very many at this point. :pop:

[meoveryouxinfinity]

Aren't Reggie Smith and Marcus Walker BJW products? Isn't Nic Harris, who had 2 interceptions today? Look at what BJW did last year with a pair of guys who hadn't ever contributed at a high level (Joke and Bassey), along with a converted HB (Wolfe), a true freshman (Smith) and a converted corner (Williams) at FS , and a converted LB (Baker)and true freshman (Harris) at SS.

Reggie Smith is only a Sophomore, and it's his first year at Corner. I don't see how you can be upset with the way that BJW has gotten him to play thus far. Walker, as you mentioned, played great, and if he stays healthy, our CB situation looks really good. I think you grossly over-estimate the talent of Holmes and Wolfe, if you think those guys are better talents than Woolfolk or Perkins. And a lot of CB, particularly in our scheme, is about instincts and technique, not just physical talent. Those guys (particularly Strait and Woolfolk) didn't have all of the physical tools, but they had great ball skills, and they had tremendous instincts/field intelligence. And if you think that Jason Carter or Darrien Williams have anywhere near the physical talent that Bradon Everage, Brodney Pool, and to a lesser extent Donte Nicholson had, you're being ridiculous.

By the way, don't forget that Eric Bassey at Safety was a Mike Stoops product, and we all know how that worked out. And don't forget how bad our secondary looked against aTm and OSU in 2002.

You're kidding yourself if you think OU has as much talent on defense this year or last year as we did in 2000-2003.

I agree that the looked bad at times today, and the missed tackles and coverage breakdowns is certainly cause for concern. I'm just saying that it's not really fair to compare Venables to M. Stoops or Pellini, because he isn't playing with the same deck of cards. Our defense is still very young at a lot of key positions, and at other key positions, the veterans that we thought we could depend on, just aren't answering the bell.

What's killing the defense right now is the play of the Safeties. They just aren't making any plays, and are missing tackles in the open field. For this defense to work, you need playmakers at safety, and we don't have that. Perhaps Keenan Clayton and Nic Harris can develop into those kinds of players at some point, but right now they just aren't there yet, and that's what's really killing the defense. Yes, the tackling needs to get better overall, and our corners need to play a little better, especially in terms of not giving up big plays on obvious passing downs, but I'm telling you that our scheme looks a ton better when those safeties are coming down and tackling people like they should, and making plays on the football in the secondary.Reggie is NATURAL talent. Saying that he's just a sophomore and as good as he is just proves this point. Hell, he could've been on a NFL roster as a junior in high school.

[the_ouskull]

We have two stars on this defense...

Rufus.
Reggie.

Everybody else is a warm-body type. Granger isn't the second coming of Tommie Harris, Birdine isn't going to remind anybody of Dan Cody anytime soon, and Clint Ingram isn't Rocky Calmus.

We have a very good defense, with decent talent, but yes, the LB's are relatively slow... especially if you compare them to our recent LB's... although Rocky wasn't the fastest guy in the world, his instincts pretty much made sure he was always in the right place...

...those, and the coaching. (Mike Stoops took a slow, white kid and made him a Butkus winner... Now we have someone as gifted as Rufus. Let's see what happens.)

the_ouskull

[OldGuyinStudentSection]

Let me ask this: is the talent on the field worthy of a 97th ranked defense? Name me 15 teams with better defensive talent than the Sooners.

[rhombic21]

We are 3 games into the season.

Let's see what those stats look like after a few more games.

[stoopified]

Skull .ole Buddy Ingram ain't on this team,(wish he was)I'm guessing that you are referencing Lattner as not being Calmus.Aside from that you are right,Reggie and Rufus are our only D studs as of now.

[Soonerman08]

We have two stars on this defense...

Rufus.
Reggie.

Everybody else is a warm-body type. Granger isn't the second coming of Tommie Harris, Birdine isn't going to remind anybody of Dan Cody anytime soon, and Clint Ingram isn't Rocky Calmus.

We have a very good defense, with decent talent, but yes, the LB's are relatively slow... especially if you compare them to our recent LB's... although Rocky wasn't the fastest guy in the world, his instincts pretty much made sure he was always in the right place...

...those, and the coaching. (Mike Stoops took a slow, white kid and made him a Butkus winner... Now we have someone as gifted as Rufus. Let's see what happens.)

the_ouskull


Mike Stoops had nothing to do with making Rocky Calmus or Teddy Lehman for that matter a Butkus winner. Venables is the linebackers coach and the Butkus is a linebacker's award. Now Mike Stoops did get Strait the Thorpe award.

[Texas Golfer]

Thank you all for the trip down "Memory Lane" but the players of the past are not the issue. The players of today are not doing the job and it's the responsibility of the coaches to insure that they do.

All the preseason hype by the pundants had OU's defense as one of the best, if not the best, in the country...with these players, not the players of yesteryear.

[Egeo]

i used to think the coaching blame was BS

but we blitz to much and were getting killed cause opponents are catching us blitzing and then we run nothing but zone defense it seems
we've been getting slaughtered on underneath passes since 2004 against omar jacobs
and then this year our guys are peeking into the backfield too much and getting torched short and deep

with our talent, lets run some man press or something sometimes
how about some cover 2 man (at least every once ina while)
and then on offense.... peterson has 3 guys waiting on him in the "hole" while oregon's spread offense is leaving stewart with huge gaps to run through

something has to change (starting with pac 10 refs)
watching the stoops replay it doesnt seem like our schemes are that bad

we ran a bit out of the spread, and it was probably only slightly more successful than our I form runs

and the last td we gave up, we were in man coverage

we do blitz alot, but we didnt blitz at all on their second to last drive
im not sure but our blitz % might be ok - its just were not any good at it

the players just need to execute and we need our dl to dominate.
playcalling could be a little better, but hindsight is 20/20

[TrophyCollector]

We are 3 games into the season.

Let's see what those stats look like after a few more games.

Yea, after playing the Big XII schedule maybe we can really improve and claw our way up into the low 70s. :rolleyes:

[Scott D]

In case we all forget, the defense last season was, statistically, the worst since 99 even with Dusty and Ingram; so, is the problem the players or the coaches? I would like to hear the input of NFL scouts as to exactly which players on our 2 deep on Defense have any kind of future on Sundays; i'm not guessing very many at this point. :pop:

I'm sure that you are aware that part of the issue statistically with last season's defense is in relation to last season's offense. I don't care what team you are, if your offense has trouble moving the ball at times (which we did), you could have the Ravens defense, and you'd have worse stats than you would with an offense that could move the ball consistently.

[LSUdeek]

Uhhh, like the clownshoes messiah of the Nebraska Blackshirts that brought his on your heels, we're gonna keep it underneath and suck the paint off the field Cover 2 named Bo Pellini?
yeah, that guy ****ing sucks

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2006&div=4&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org

IA National Team Report
Total Defense


Year: 2006Thru: 09/30/06 Minimum Pct. of Games Played
Rank Name Games Plays Yds Avg TDs Ydspgm
1 LSU (http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2006/Internet/ranking_summary/2006000000365.HTML) 5 284 967 3.40 4 193.40

[T_Boner]

IMO, the defense has just gotten a little worse every year since Mike Stoop has been gone. You definitely have to look at the current defensive coaches, and I think the blame starts with Venables and trickles down to his assistants. Player execution is very inconsistent, and you gotta ask yourself “why aren’t they executing” (i.e. tackling, overrunning plays, getting blown off the line, letting receivers get behind them, etc). This is fundamental football!!! And OU has excellent talent. Every team has young inexperienced players, so I don’t see that as a valid excuse. Bo Pellini got a lot of the blame, but he sure seemed to do well at Nebraska and currently at LSU.

[KingDavid]

It is worth noting that Bo Pelini is now coaching the #2 defense (maybe the best?) in the nation. I'm not sure what it means . . . but it perhaps raises an eyebrow as to why he's doing it there but did not produce as good of a defense the year he was here. Probably just time . . . and control.

I think BV is going to have the defense humming this week . . . and this thread will drift into oblivion. I hope so.

[Scott D]

[nebraska slappy]Oh yeah! Well Mike Stoops did it with John Blake's players![/nebraska slappy]

[ashley]

Our talent on D is obviously not as good as rated. Real players make plays and ours are not doing that. It has very little to do with coaching.

[T_Boner]

Our talent on D is obviously not as good as rated. Real players make plays and ours are not doing that. It has very little to do with coaching.

They have talent, they're just not playing very well, IMO that has a lot to do with coaching. This is a big year for BV.

[FormerSoonerProf]

Our Defense looks predictable... so...Offenses take advantage against our D, If we lose to Texas with bad defense, Venables will be packing soon!

[usmc-sooner]

Hey, how did Pellini's defense do in last year's SEC title game? Just wondering.

how did Venables defense do in last year's title game? just wondering? How has his defense fared in any title game since Mike Left?
0-2 2003
1-1 2004
no title games in 2005

that being said, Bob's office probably aint to far from Brent's and Bob was the at one time the best DC in the business.

[goingoneight]

This isn't like teaching Barry's wishbone guys a modern passing offense when they're in the midst of a dominant running gameplan, it is simple technique.

Hopefully Bob just sticks his nose in the defensive scheme from now on... Has anyone else noticed how much the guys improve when Bob himself "takes it over temporarily?" Best example is the Holiday Bowl offense before KW was named coordinator. If it wasn't for a little spike and a fumbled snap, OUr O was potent against a damn good Oregon D. Bob also said he would focus individually with his defensive guys after giving up 500 total yards to Oregon, and though it was Middle Tennessee BRSI A&M Tech State's University, OUr guys started to wrap up and cover better. Once again, not playing Texass, but definitely looking sharper fundamentally.

IMHO, If everyone tackled like Rufus, Reggie or Nic Harris, we'd be in good shape...

[Texas Golfer]

Our talent on D is obviously not as good as rated. Real players make plays and ours are not doing that. It has very little to do with coaching.

If coaching has little to do with performance, why don't we fire the entire staff and save millions.

[mustangsooner]

The D hasn't been the same since M Stoops left. Don't know if it's Venables or the talent of the players or both. I know that Pelini bolted after one year and is doing a lot better at LSU than he did at OU.

Pelini fell into a very good situation. He fell into some really good players. I am not saying that he is not a good coach. Hook 'em Hook 'em Hook 'em

[Geekboy]

Bo goes to LSU and proceeds to trot out the best defense in the NCAA with underclassmen this year.

Bo did pretty damn good against Auburn. I'd read the reason Auburn struggled against South Carolina was because they were still banged up from the LSU game.
We're going to find out alot more this weekend against the Florida spread offense.

[man00]

OU does lack speed on defense, also you notice when its one on one in open field more times than not the OU player will miss the tackle. IMO OU just doesn't
have the talent they once had..

[SouthFortySooner]

I have never been one to say coachin ain't dis or dat. But our D has been a weak handshake.