View Full Version : My first "here's your sign moment" of this school year
Mrs. Norm
9/7/2006, 10:08 PM
I gave my 6th graders a spelling worksheet to complete. One of their spelling words is birch. They were to find misspelled words in a paragraph and then write them correctly. Some of the words were correct/some were not. A student actually circled the word "birch" and wrote in "bitch". I called him up and asked him why he did this? The sad thing about it is that he really did think that was wrong!! It's going to be a long year. :O
usmc-sooner
9/7/2006, 10:13 PM
so what the hell happened in grade 1-5
****bird teachers
sanantoniosooner
9/7/2006, 10:15 PM
I knew this poplar ash birch when I was in school.
Mrs. Norm
9/7/2006, 10:20 PM
so what the hell happened in grade 1-5
****bird teachers
I wish I knew. I have 28 students. 25 of them are FAR BELOW level. Not just "Below", mind you. FAR BELOW!!! I believe 18 of them are reading at a third grade level or below. This group's composite score on Reading was 38 last year. (Yes, that's out of 100). I would love to see what our 5 grade teachers did last year. However, one of them retired, one moved away in the middle of the year, and one is now a 3rd grade teacher. But there is no excuse for my 6th graders to be 3rd grade or below!
BajaOklahoma
9/7/2006, 10:23 PM
School started on August 9th.
We've already had CPS come to our school twice and take kids to the Advocacy Center to be interviewed. Very sad.
Mrs. Norm
9/7/2006, 10:27 PM
School started on August 9th.
We've already had CPS come to our school twice and take kids to the Advocacy Center to be interviewed. Very sad.
What the heck is going on?? It seems that every year the classes get worse. I work my behind off to get them on level or above. I've been successful every year, but I'm really concerned about this class.
usmc-sooner
9/7/2006, 10:41 PM
seems like a lot of teachers have dropped the ball, it's not fair to the students or the teachers who get them later.
leavingthezoo
9/7/2006, 10:44 PM
life's a birch, and then you wilt.
Viking Kitten
9/7/2006, 11:07 PM
You'll have to keep these kids engaged to really facilitate learning, Mrs. Norm. You might try a friendly classroom game of "dirty words count double" Scrabble, or have your students diagram the various ways "f**k" can be used as parts of speech. They'll be amazed at its versatility! I know my friends always are!
GottaHavePride
9/8/2006, 12:09 AM
well one of the reason teachers get so behind is political agenda's instead of just teaching.
and too many damn assessments preventing teachers from actually teaching.
Oh, and Oklahoma's pay scale for teachers driving the young, competent educators to look for jobs in other states that pay WAY more. (No offense to Mrs. Norm - I'm talking about the brand-new college grads with ed degrees.)
SicEmBaylor
9/8/2006, 12:47 AM
and too many damn assessments preventing teachers from actually teaching.
Oh, and Oklahoma's pay scale for teachers driving the young, competent educators to look for jobs in other states that pay WAY more. (No offense to Mrs. Norm - I'm talking about the brand-new college grads with ed degrees.)
How the hell does pay scale only affect/disaffect the quality of teachers? This is often an argument used by the most contemptable political organization in the country...the NEA. Pay scale affects the volume of teachers not the quality of teachers. The only extent to which your mentioned argument holds true is that with a greater pool of teachers available you have the opportunity to higher a greater number of quality teachers. That doesn't work though since the hiring process isn't all that discerning especially in states with a shortage.
Increased pay doesn't help you identify better teachers. What it does do is help you retain quality teachers to stop them from moving to other states/districts where the pay is better. Therefore, you have to have an effective system in place to identify the teachers that you WANT to retain (the quality ones) and then pay them well in order to keep them in the state and district.
Let me go on by asking exactly why you have labeled these young teachers "competent?" Exactly what criteria have you applied in order to make that determination? No such criteria effectively exists unless you make the assumption, as the NEA does, that virtually EVERY teacher is competent. In addition, you meanted ED degreed educators; personally, I would love to eliminate education degree requirements for the junior high/high school levels and instead require those teachers to hold a degree in whatever subject they want to teach. If you want to teach history then get a history degree.
GottaHavePride
9/8/2006, 01:11 AM
Increased pay doesn't help you identify better teachers. What it does do is help you retain quality teachers to stop them from moving to other states/districts where the pay is better. Therefore, you have to have an effective system in place to identify the teachers that you WANT to retain (the quality ones) and then pay them well in order to keep them in the state and district.
Let me go on by asking exactly why you have labeled these young teachers "competent?" Exactly what criteria have you applied in order to make that determination?
About bolded section #1: that's exactly what I meant. The level of pay in Oklahoma sucks, thus the best and most-qualified teachers coming out of Oklahoma don't stay in OK to teach - they move to other states (like Texas, Georgia, Oregon, and that's just people I know personally) where they'll get paid what they're worth. That leaves the less-qualified teachers (obviously, since the higher-paying districts wouldn't hire them...) in Oklahoma. Which is exactly what you said, so I don't know why you're disagreeing with me. ;)
About bolded section #2: I certainly don't consider an ed degree proof of competence. My criteria involve actually knowing the material you're trying to teach to kids and demonstrable ability to actually get the kids to learn. Which is basically the same as me saying "I've been around a lot of teachers; I know which ones are ****ty teachers, and I don't need any criteria to help me figure it out." Arrogant? Possibly so. Accurate? High probability. ;)
Which leads me to a side rant about educational standards and criteria. My theory: criteria are only necessary to someone that doesn't know what the hell they're supposed to be judging. If a teacher can't tell how well a kid is learning a subject without using criteria developed by administrators, they aren't qualified to be teaching that subject. School districts should be spending less time making up criteria and standardized tests and a whole lot more time on ensuring their teachers actually know what they're teaching.
How the hell does pay scale only affect/disaffect the quality of teachers? This is often an argument used by the most contemptable political organization in the country...the NEA. Pay scale affects the volume of teachers not the quality of teachers. The only extent to which your mentioned argument holds true is that with a greater pool of teachers available you have the opportunity to higher a greater number of quality teachers. That doesn't work though since the hiring process isn't all that discerning especially in states with a shortage.
Firstly, increased pay does help you get better teachers through increased volume. Think about it for a second. A lare number of highly qualified individuals are not even going to think about a career in teaching when the pay is so low. It won't even cross their mind. Instead, the people who decide to teach when the pay is so low are either a) really really passionate about teaching, or b) people that can't find anything else to do. I submit that there are not enough people in category a and too many in category b. By creating a dramatic increase in applicants for a teaching position through higher salaries, the school has the oppurtunity to be more selective in who it hires. It's hard to be very selective when there aren't many people to choose from in the first place.
Increased pay doesn't help you identify better teachers. What it does do is help you retain quality teachers to stop them from moving to other states/districts where the pay is better. Therefore, you have to have an effective system in place to identify the teachers that you WANT to retain (the quality ones) and then pay them well in order to keep them in the state and district.
this goes without saying, but without increased pay, the likelihood of identifying better teachers is smaller than it is with increased pay, because higher pay will lead to more highly qualified applicants.
Let me go on by asking exactly why you have labeled these young teachers "competent?" Exactly what criteria have you applied in order to make that determination? No such criteria effectively exists unless you make the assumption, as the NEA does, that virtually EVERY teacher is competent. In addition, you meanted ED degreed educators; personally, I would love to eliminate education degree requirements for the junior high/high school levels and instead require those teachers to hold a degree in whatever subject they want to teach. If you want to teach history then get a history degree.
To finish off with a real life example of what I am talking about....
I am going to get my PhD in particle physics this semester. During the times when I was a first and second year grad student, I also had to teach discussion sections (as well as some full summer classes) to college kids. I found that I kind of like teaching. Its fun to see the look on a students face when they finally "get it". However, there is no way in hell that I would ever consider teaching below the college level, and that is for one reason and one reason alone. The pay stinks. I've already spent enough years being underpaid as a grad student to get this far, and theres no way in hell I would consider living the rest of my life at roughly the same pay scale. Yeah, thats right...Grad students in particle physics get paid roughly the same amount as starting teachers in Oklahoma. I know this because my mom is a teacher. Now, if the pay were quite a bit better, yeah, I'd entertain the idea. It probably wouldn't be my first choice, but it would be an option I would put on the table. As it is now, it's not even an option.
BoogercountySooner
9/8/2006, 05:44 AM
Son of a Birch would be an Alder right?
sanantoniosooner
9/8/2006, 07:00 AM
I knew this poplar ash birch when I was in school.
surely/shirley somebody can work more than three into a sentence.........
Norm In Norman
9/8/2006, 07:36 AM
SicEm just thinks all teachers suck. If he ever owns a business and thinks he's going to have a better work force by paying them less than his competitors ... well, I can't wait to see his business fail.
Sooner_Bob
9/8/2006, 07:40 AM
life's a birch, and then you wilt.
dang spek limits . . .
Hatfield
9/8/2006, 07:45 AM
my mother is a teacher and this is one of her biggest frustrations. she notices every year the kids want to learn less and less and they feel they are entitled to just be given the grades.
we deserve everything we get when we allow our youth to be raised ignorant.
the_ouskull
9/8/2006, 07:46 AM
I have a kid in my 9th grade English class that speaks absolutely 0 English. None. I know this because I speak Spanish.
I asked him how long he'd been in American, and he said, "less than a year." He's in Freshman English and speaks NO English. He's not doing any of the work, either. I've started giving him assignments to do in Spanish 'cause I don't know what else to do. It's a lot more work for me, but I don't want to just give up on him, ya know? I still have NO idea why he's in MY class... College-Bound Frosh English... Geez.
the_ouskull
usmc-sooner
9/8/2006, 07:51 AM
I have a kid in my 9th grade English class that speaks absolutely 0 English. None. I know this because I speak Spanish.
the_ouskull
So you wouldn't know this unless you spoke Spanish?
I have a kid in my 9th grade English class that speaks absolutely 0 English. None. I know this because I speak Spanish.
I asked him how long he'd been in American, and he said, "less than a year." He's in Freshman English and speaks NO English. He's not doing any of the work, either. I've started giving him assignments to do in Spanish 'cause I don't know what else to do. It's a lot more work for me, but I don't want to just give up on him, ya know? I still have NO idea why he's in MY class... College-Bound Frosh English... Geez.
the_ouskull
all of this sad. There's no recourse with the admins? Is he being pushed through to keep up appearances? This is a disservice to everyone: this particular student, his classmates, you, society...Because instead of having an opportunity to actually educate everyone (not only the kid, but his classmates by opening up everyone to learning new things - not just about the what's on the curriculum - about the world and different people from different places), I'm afraid this is going to be trumped as another case of a failed education system and an opportunity to bash foreigners who "don't want to learn our culture." Just sad.
By the way, as someone who has taught at the college level.
Why in the hell can't my college students write a freakin' essay?
Why is their vocabulary virtually nil?
How the hell did they get into college?
And speaking of English, why can't my native English speaking 'merican students write in coherent English?
Is it that we don't teach students in grade school, simply push them to take the standardized tests?
Norm In Norman
9/8/2006, 08:10 AM
I have a kid in my 9th grade English class that speaks absolutely 0 English. None. I know this because I speak Spanish.
I asked him how long he'd been in American, and he said, "less than a year." He's in Freshman English and speaks NO English. He's not doing any of the work, either. I've started giving him assignments to do in Spanish 'cause I don't know what else to do. It's a lot more work for me, but I don't want to just give up on him, ya know? I still have NO idea why he's in MY class... College-Bound Frosh English... Geez.
the_ouskull
Mrs. Norm's school is like 90% Hispanic. She doesn't allow them to do any assignments in Spanish (I don't think). When she was teaching 3rd grade there was a boy in her class that had came from mexico like 2 days before school started. He spoke 0 english. She made him learn a few english words per day and by the end of the year he was fairly fluent.
I'd say if you don't force him to do at least some of his work in english (especially in an English class) he is never going to learn. More than likely his parents don't speak English and don't care to, so he has nobody to encourage him to learn it except you.
BTW, I'm not trying to bash teachers. Many of my wife's family are educators in K-12 and I know that many (maybe not all) teachers work their butts off, want to see their kids learn, and try to do their best in what seems to me to be a flawed system.
But I seriously would wonder sometimes when grading "college level" work, what the heck are these kids doing in high school so that they come to college unprepared to engage in college level assignments.
1stTimeCaller
9/8/2006, 08:57 AM
By the way, as someone who has taught at the college level.
Why in the hell can't my college students write a freakin' essay?
Why is their vocabulary virtually nil?
How the hell did they get into college?
And speaking of English, why can't my native English speaking 'merican students write in coherent English?
Is it that we don't teach students in grade school, simply push them to take the standardized tests?
I've always wondered why I needed to write essays. I've never written one outside of a classroom.
GottaHavePride
9/8/2006, 09:02 AM
BTW, I'm not trying to bash teachers. Many of my wife's family are educators in K-12 and I know that many (maybe not all) teachers work their butts off, want to see their kids learn, and try to do their best in what seems to me to be a flawed system.
But I seriously would wonder sometimes when grading "college level" work, what the heck are these kids doing in high school so that they come to college unprepared to engage in college level assignments.
Heh. Very true. Despite my ranting, I think it's the administrative viewpoint that's flawed in the schools - the teachers are mostly just trying to teach within a goofy system as best they can.
And too few college students had high school freshman english teachers like mine. He gave us a grammar textbook on the first day and told us "There are 26 unit exams in this book. You can take them whenever you want, but you must take them in order, and you must pass one before you can move to the next. If you do not pass, you have to continue to retake the exam until you do pass. Passing is 85%... the first time. Each time you re-take the exam the required passing grade goes up 5%. If you have not passed ALL 26 exams by the end of the year, you will fail English. No exceptions."
Skysooner
9/8/2006, 09:12 AM
I've always wondered why I needed to write essays. I've never written one outside of a classroom.
You have never had to write a technical report in your job? No, you do not normally need to write essays in work, but I have to write project updates to the executive committee of our company. They usually run 2 to 3 pages and have an introduction, body, conclusion with supporting documentation.
1stTimeCaller
9/8/2006, 09:18 AM
Nope. My biggest problem with essays was the length. If I can tell you everything in two pages why should I have to fluff it up to make 10?
Bosses don't have time to read fluff and BS.
Nope. My biggest problem with essays was the length. If I can tell you everything in two pages why should I have to fluff it up to make 10?
Bosses don't have time to read fluff and BS.
So, are you or aren't you a fluffer?
1stTimeCaller
9/8/2006, 09:40 AM
yes
I've always wondered why I needed to write essays. I've never written one outside of a classroom.
Yeah, maybe. It depends on what you do once you graduate. But I'd always try to remind my students that, no matter what you do, communicating through writing will be an important skill in your life. Most jobs will require you to write a report, executive summary, etc., etc., etc. - writing in different disciplines hones skills that will help you do these things.
Skysooner
9/8/2006, 09:43 AM
Nope. My biggest problem with essays was the length. If I can tell you everything in two pages why should I have to fluff it up to make 10?
Bosses don't have time to read fluff and BS.
Agreed. It still helps to be able to write coherently. I kind of lost the skill through college when I was mainly doing long-term scientific studies where we were presenting technical results. I had to relearn the skill when I did my MBA years later.
Nope. My biggest problem with essays was the length. If I can tell you everything in two pages why should I have to fluff it up to make 10?
Bosses don't have time to read fluff and BS.
I would have thanked and rewarded any student who could use brevity effectively. Fluff usually = BS, which was not what I wanted, was always easy to sniff out, and was discouraged.
I would have thanked and rewarded any student who could use brevity effectively. Fluff usually = BS, which was not what I wanted, was always easy to sniff out, and was discouraged.
I bet you could smell 1TC's fluff a mile away.
Scott D
9/8/2006, 10:04 AM
The best english teacher I had was german. How do you like that for irony? :)
Scott D
9/8/2006, 10:05 AM
Firstly, increased pay does help you get better teachers through increased volume. Think about it for a second. A lare number of highly qualified individuals are not even going to think about a career in teaching when the pay is so low. It won't even cross their mind. Instead, the people who decide to teach when the pay is so low are either a) really really passionate about teaching, or b) people that can't find anything else to do. I submit that there are not enough people in category a and too many in category b. By creating a dramatic increase in applicants for a teaching position through higher salaries, the school has the oppurtunity to be more selective in who it hires. It's hard to be very selective when there aren't many people to choose from in the first place.
this goes without saying, but without increased pay, the likelihood of identifying better teachers is smaller than it is with increased pay, because higher pay will lead to more highly qualified applicants.
To finish off with a real life example of what I am talking about....
I am going to get my PhD in particle physics this semester. During the times when I was a first and second year grad student, I also had to teach discussion sections (as well as some full summer classes) to college kids. I found that I kind of like teaching. Its fun to see the look on a students face when they finally "get it". However, there is no way in hell that I would ever consider teaching below the college level, and that is for one reason and one reason alone. The pay stinks. I've already spent enough years being underpaid as a grad student to get this far, and theres no way in hell I would consider living the rest of my life at roughly the same pay scale. Yeah, thats right...Grad students in particle physics get paid roughly the same amount as starting teachers in Oklahoma. I know this because my mom is a teacher. Now, if the pay were quite a bit better, yeah, I'd entertain the idea. It probably wouldn't be my first choice, but it would be an option I would put on the table. As it is now, it's not even an option.
Ike did I mention that there is an opening in the Physics Dept. at the Univ. of Maryland-Baltimore? My uncle retired after last spring.
BTW, I'm not trying to bash teachers. Many of my wife's family are educators in K-12 and I know that many (maybe not all) teachers work their butts off, want to see their kids learn, and try to do their best in what seems to me to be a flawed system.
But I seriously would wonder sometimes when grading "college level" work, what the heck are these kids doing in high school so that they come to college unprepared to engage in college level assignments.
you aren't the only one. When I was a TA, I was absolutely shocked by the number of times I saw students break out their calculators to multiply or divide by 10, or do something equally as trivial. And these were engineering and pre-med students.
Scott D
9/8/2006, 10:06 AM
you aren't the only one. When I was a TA, I was absolutely shocked by the number of times I saw students break out their calculators to multiply or divide by 10, or do something equally as trivial. And these were engineering and pre-med students.
I think part of that is that students today as a reflection of America are far too dependant on technology for everything.
Ike did I mention that there is an opening in the Physics Dept. at the Univ. of Maryland-Baltimore? My uncle retired after last spring.
sweet! I'm searching for who I need to send my CV to now :D
Actually though, it may not be a job for the likes of me. Typically, when Physics departments hire, they are looking for someone with a specific background. They may have all the particle physicists they want, and be looking for someone in AMO, or solid state, or whatever. But thanks for the heads up :)
Scott D
9/8/2006, 10:09 AM
I'll have to get his email from my mother again. I don't think I wrote it down last time she gave it to me.
I bet you could smell 1TC's fluff a mile away.
eeeewwww!!!!!
I think part of that is that students today as a reflection of America are far too dependant on technology for everything.
I think a bigger part of that is a complete lack of self confidence when it comes to working with numbers. They don't trust their own brains.
stoopified
9/8/2006, 10:12 AM
Life is a birch when you can't get a cherry piece of ash anymore.
Scott D
9/8/2006, 10:13 AM
I think a bigger part of that is a complete lack of self confidence when it comes to working with numbers. They don't trust their own brains.
Yeah, but I think part of that lack of trust is dependency on technology. Why should they try to do the math in their heads when they'll likely be using a computer or calculator in the field. Why does a kid who lives two blocks from a high school drive there as soon as he/she gets a license. My brother thought I was nuts because I sometimes had to walk 2.5 miles from a 'city' bus stop back to our house on base if I didn't ride with my friends or wasn't going to be getting back from school at a time where a parent would be waiting for me due to JROTC or Sports. (Mind you my HS was about 30 miles away from where we lived) He was riding to Moore High School as soon as either he or a friend was able to drive. They live about a block and a half away from the school.
Yeah, but I think part of that lack of trust is dependency on technology. Why should they try to do the math in their heads when they'll likely be using a computer or calculator in the field. Why does a kid who lives two blocks from a high school drive there as soon as he/she gets a license. My brother thought I was nuts because I sometimes had to walk 2.5 miles from a 'city' bus stop back to our house on base if I didn't ride with my friends or wasn't going to be getting back from school at a time where a parent would be waiting for me due to JROTC or Sports. (Mind you my HS was about 30 miles away from where we lived) He was riding to Moore High School as soon as either he or a friend was able to drive. They live about a block and a half away from the school.
Thats probably a fair assesment. Perhaps a lot of this is due to the fact that we teach people that using technology is "the way it's done" instead of showing them that technology is just a tool to make our lives easier. Knowing how the tool works is every bit as important as knowing how to use it. (especially in the case of computers and calculators...I can't tell you how many times I've seen students write down some obviously wrong solution to a problem because it was what the calculator spit out. )
The best english teacher I had was german. How do you like that for irony? :)
As ironic as my post about communicating through writing being filled with typo's?:eek:
I only deal with numbers and cuss words. My high school education in tejas hooked me up on the swearing and OU hooked me up on the numbers.
Skysooner
9/8/2006, 10:46 AM
Thats probably a fair assesment. Perhaps a lot of this is due to the fact that we teach people that using technology is "the way it's done" instead of showing them that technology is just a tool to make our lives easier. Knowing how the tool works is every bit as important as knowing how to use it. (especially in the case of computers and calculators...I can't tell you how many times I've seen students write down some obviously wrong solution to a problem because it was what the calculator spit out. )
A large part of my job involves making quick risk assessments based on information presented at meetings. Sometimes I have a calculator, but most of the time it is just me and a knack for being able to quickly calculate numbers in my head. My boss will be looking to me for an answer, and I have to be able to provide it then. If I were like these kids, I would be in trouble.
A large part of my job involves making quick risk assessments based on information presented at meetings. Sometimes I have a calculator, but most of the time it is just me and a knack for being able to quickly calculate numbers in my head. My boss will be looking to me for an answer, and I have to be able to provide it then. If I were like these kids, I would be in trouble.
ya know, its funny because in most situations, the human brain is much faster at running numbers than it takes to plug them into a calculator. Especially if an approximation will do. Granted, there are some things that technology makes faster, like say, some funny functions...but for the big 2 (addition and multiplication), our brains can usually make a decent approximation before you'd be finished pushing buttons on the calculator.
You have never had to write a technical report in your job? No, you do not normally need to write essays in work, but I have to write project updates to the executive committee of our company. They usually run 2 to 3 pages and have an introduction, body, conclusion with supporting documentation.
Your executives actually read? If we took a 2-3 page written report to ours we'd be asked to never give another update. All they want is PowerPoint, 3-4 bullets per page, and no details.
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