How about a nice Wal-Mart rant? [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 10:42 AM

Being Labor Day and all.

Look, I buy some stuff there. They sell some pretty good stuff pretty cheap and the company helps the workin' man stretch his dollar.

Here's the thing though. Would it hurt the Bentonville bottomline too much if they had advanced planning when they put in a new store which incorporated responsible disposition of the old store?

Right here in south river city they are building two Wally-World supa-centers within five miles of each other and I expect the buildings they'll vacate when the new ones are ready will just sit empty until they fall to the ground.

It seems they are committed to a growth plan which guides them to walk away from a site when it becomes rundown instead of renovatiing because they would have to empty the old store of inventory and shutdown for a couple months to do the work and thus lose income.

Instead, they just corporately say "f that" and throw up a new site from which they'll also walk away in ten years.

Hundreds of acres of asphalt parking and big old empty big box buildings are a blight on the landscape. My blonde daughter (the interior design student) tells me they are essentially un-recyclable because precious few businesses other than a big-box retailer can utilize the vacated space without spending more dough to adapt them than it would take to build new. Plus, what to do about the ginormous parking lots?

Therefore, I propose a new state statute which requires Oklahoma municipalities to make as a condition of issuance of a building permit, a requirement that Wally-World (or any other big-box retailer) raze buildings it vacates and remove the parking lots returning the land to its pre-construction state. Alternatively, the retailer may pay a hefty fine which the city must keep in trust and only use to subsidize private renovation of the space to make it suitable for new or existing businesses which are willing to occupy the space.

There, I feel better.

royalfan5

9/4/2006, 10:45 AM

Yep, Gov't regulation always fixes everything. No need to wait for the market to correct this problems.

PrideTrombone

9/4/2006, 10:51 AM

The vacated Wal-Mart in Norman was a church for a while, then Wal-Mart turned it into a Sam's Club.

GrapevineSooner

9/4/2006, 10:55 AM

Same thing essentially happened in my neck of the woods. Wal-Mart was in Southlake, built a Super Wal-Mart over in Grapevine, and vacated the one in Southlake.

Of course, Roger Staubach purchased the land the Wal-Mart was on, tore it down, and built up a new strip shopping center that now houses a bank, a Circuit City, and a McAlester's Deli among the new tenants.

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 10:57 AM

Yep, Gov't regulation always fixes everything. No need to wait for the market to correct this problems.

I am generally not in favor of government regulation as a means to solve societal ills, but seriously, if we didn't have some regulation, we'd be tromping around among all manner of environmental hazards.

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 10:59 AM

The vacated Wal-Mart in Norman was a church for a while, then Wal-Mart turned it into a Sam's Club.

That worked out nicely then. I just propose a legislative means of prodding that along. I wonder if the church leased the space from Wally or if it actually bought it then sold it back to him?

royalfan5

9/4/2006, 11:01 AM

I am generally not in favor of government regulation as a means to solve societal ills, but seriously, if we didn't have some regulation, we'd be tromping around among all manner of environmental hazards.
This isn't an enviromental hazard, it's an empty building. If you start punishing businesses for being successful and moving to bigger quarters, or adding addiditional punishments to failing and leaving behind a vacant building you are starting a slippery slope to providing more and more disincentives to development. Real estate is one of the more consistently valuable items in a capitialist society. Eventually the market will provide economic incentives to get Big Box retailers to do something with vacant stores because it will be in their interest too.

hurricane'bone

9/4/2006, 11:08 AM

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 11:16 AM

I think most of the old Wal-Mart locations here in Tulsa have been turned into something else. The one is SS is a Dollar General, 71st and Riverside is a Church, I think the one in BA turned into a Big Lots. I wouldn't be surprised to see another car dealership go into the location at 42nd & Memorial & that store at 91st is a pit and IS about to fall down.

I wonder what kind of church makes use of these buildings? Do they just fill them with folding chairs and get-r-done?

I'm gonna keep an eye on the one down here on south Memorial to see what happens to it (the one next to the very cool "Ace Hardware" which I amazed has been able to compete)

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 11:23 AM

This isn't an enviromental hazard, it's an empty building. If you start punishing businesses for being successful and moving to bigger quarters, or adding addiditional punishments to failing and leaving behind a vacant building you are starting a slippery slope to providing more and more disincentives to development. Real estate is one of the more consistently valuable items in a capitialist society. Eventually the market will provide economic incentives to get Big Box retailers to do something with vacant stores because it will be in their interest too.

Don't kid yourself. Sealing hundreds of acres of earth with pavement has profound and long-term local environmental effects. I just don't think business should be able to do that willy-nilly and then split when the mood strikes them.

I'm merely in favor of incentivizing recycling of these buildings instead of allowing Wally to suck them for what juice they can provide then discarding and leaving the massive peel laying there and for someone else to deal with.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

9/4/2006, 11:25 AM

royalfan5

9/4/2006, 11:29 AM

Don't kid yourself. Sealing hundreds of acres of earth with pavement has profound and long-term local environmental effects. I just don't think business should be able to do that willy-nilly and then split when the mood strikes them.

I'm merely in favor of incentivizing recycling of these buildings instead of allowing Wally to suck them for what juice they can provide then discarding and leaving the massive peel laying there and for someone else to deal with.
By and large they do get recycled, it just isn't going to happen overnight. Especially as the real estate market softens. If you're that worried about the enviromental effects, why allow them to be built in the first place? The business's are just waking up one day and saying I think I'll move, it's all part of a bigger strategic plan, there's nothing willy-nilly about it. If you don't want Big Box stores proliferating further and further out, perhaps local gov'ts should cut back on approving sprawling sub-divisions first.

hurricane'bone

9/4/2006, 11:39 AM

I wonder what kind of church makes use of these buildings? Do they just fill them with folding chairs and get-r-done?

I'm gonna keep an eye on the one down here on south Memorial to see what happens to it (the one next to the very cool "Ace Hardware" which I amazed has been able to compete)

You should go check out The Church at Battle Creek. Its in an old mall.

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 11:40 AM

By and large they do get recycled, it just isn't going to happen overnight. Especially as the real estate market softens. If you're that worried about the enviromental effects, why allow them to be built in the first place? The business's are just waking up one day and saying I think I'll move, it's all part of a bigger strategic plan, there's nothing willy-nilly about it. If you don't want Big Box stores proliferating further and further out, perhaps local gov'ts should cut back on approving sprawling sub-divisions first.

Apples and oranges my man. Subdivisions generally last over fifty years before they peter-out and go to seed. Not so Big-Box retail sites. They only last about ten years tops on average and they put about the same amount of soil under asphalt as a typical subdivision.

I quite understand the planned obsolescence of the big boxes is part of the overall corporate strategy. It just seems danged environmentally irresponsible to me. What is wrong about drawing a line and saying you can't build a new box unless you have made appropriate provisions for disposal or reuse of the old one? Would it wreck Wally's bottomline if he had to shut a site down for a quarter to renovate versus building a brand-new one at a new site?

royalfan5

9/4/2006, 11:46 AM

Apples and oranges my man. Subdivisions generally last about fifty years before they peter-out and go to seed. Not so Big-Box retail sites. They only last about ten years tops on average and they put about the same amount of soil under asphalt as a typical subdivision.

I quite understand the planned obsolescence of the big boxes is part of the overall corporate strategy. It just seems danged environmentally irresponsible to me. What is wrong about drawing a line and saying you can't build a new box unless you have made appropriate provisions for disposal or reuse of the old one? Would it wreck Wally's bottomline if he had to shut a site down for a quarter to renovate versus building a brand-new one at a new site?
I'm saying the icreasing sub-divisions fuel the growth new box sites. With less sprawl, you don't have the incentive to continue to develop retail sites further and further out, and the retailers would then have the incentive to maintain themselves at their current sites. In smaller cities around here, they haven't had much of a problem filling vacated Big Box stores with something. It takes entreprenurial spirit, and the best way to kill that spirit is with rules.(e.g. Western Europe).

Frozen Sooner

9/4/2006, 11:48 AM

Wow, Wal-Mart being an irresponsible corporate neighbor?

I'm shocked.

Shocked.

OUHOMER

9/4/2006, 12:10 PM

VeeJay

9/4/2006, 12:10 PM

Wow!

If this is applied to WM, then shouldn't it be appled equally to any business operator?

IOW, if a beautician operates a two chair salon, becomes hugely successful, then moves into a nice new sparkling strip mall with a well known anchor tenant, shouldn't they provide for the economic well being of the old property, like WM's required to do?

And what are the parameters imposed on the successful business owners as regards to the tax base?

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 12:19 PM

I'm saying the icreasing sub-divisions fuel the growth new box sites. With less sprawl, you don't have the incentive to continue to develop retail sites further and further out, and the retailers would then have the incentive to maintain themselves at their current sites. In smaller cities around here, they haven't had much of a problem filling vacated Big Box stores with something. It takes entreprenurial spirit, and the best way to kill that spirit is with rules.(e.g. Western Europe).

There are precedents in case law for denying residential zoning in areas too remote from existing services, although the leading case (Ramapo) decided by the NY supremes in 1972 held a town couldn't do it without the legislature passing a law allowing such municipal ordinances.

The leading growth management case is probably Construction Industry Assoc. v. City of Petaluma, affirmed by the Ninth Circuit in 1976 which was a case about a CA town's ordinance limiting residential construction to no more than 500 houses per year and designed to promote orderly development. The Ninth said "the Petaluma plan represents a reasonable and legitimate exercise of the police power."

As an aside, IMHO the best way to stem sprawl is to fix the schools. Families move to suburban hinterlands to escape crappy urban school districts more than anything else.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

9/4/2006, 12:20 PM

royalfan5

9/4/2006, 12:23 PM

There are precedents in case law for denying residential zoning in areas too remote from existing services, although the leading case (Ramapo) decided by the NY supremes in 1972 held a town couldn't do it without the legislature passing a law allowing such municipal ordinances.

The leading growth management case is probably Construction Industry Assoc. v. City of Petaluma, affirmed by the Ninth Circuit in 1976 which was a case about a CA town's ordinance limiting residential construction to no more than 500 houses per year and designed to promote orderly development. The Ninth said "the Petaluma plan represents a reasonable and legitimate exercise of the police power."

As an aside, IMHO the best way to stem sprawl is to fix the schools. Families move to suburban hinterlands to escape crappy urban school districts more than anything else.
I don't disagree with that. Of course then you have to figure out how to fix the schools.

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 12:24 PM

How would you enforce it? How much would it cost to tear down the old Lucent plant, or the GM plant? Would you have new business that comes to town put up a million dollar bond in case they grow, go out of biz. Or maybe have them just turn the title over to the county, city, state..

Don’t know if I build a new biz in Okla. if I was looking for a new place if these rules were in place.

Can’t the city already tear down anything this is considered a hell hole.

Going out of business is one thing. You shouldn't and can't regulate that. However, deciding to abandon an old site and build a new one in the same locale is something entirely different. I don't believe we'd let industry do that without cleaning up the old place first. Why let Big Box retailers get away with it?

royalfan5

9/4/2006, 12:25 PM

Going out of business is one thing. You shouldn't and can't regulate that. However, deciding to abandon an old site and build a new one in the same locale is something entirely different. I don't believe we'd let industry do that without cleaning up the old place first. Why let Big Box retailers get away with it?
Well, you could always turn Big Box sites over to Superfund.

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 12:25 PM

I don't disagree with that. Of course then you have to figure out how to fix the schools.

And as long as the teachers unions remain in power, there won't be any crappy school fixing allowed.;)

royalfan5

9/4/2006, 12:29 PM

And as long as the teachers unions remain in power, there won't be any crappy school fixing allowed.;)
It depends on the state, I suppose. Teacher's unions aren't a problem in Nebraska, the biggest strain on schools is the influx of ESL students. Of course, Nebraskan's aren't very sympathic to unions as a general rule either, so teacher's union is basically a club.

Newbomb Turk

9/4/2006, 01:18 PM

Of course then you have to igure out how to fix the schools.

I thought that was what the lottery was for? :confused:

They turned the old wallyworld in Warr Acres into an Incredible Pizza. I liked it better when it was a vacant building.

yermom

9/4/2006, 03:55 PM

i'd be pretty ****ed if the only Wal-Mart in my area was closed for 3 months

Jimminy Crimson

9/4/2006, 04:21 PM

The original WM in Edmond is about to shut in about 2 weeks to move a few miles down the road to a *new* Supercenter.

There's already a developer who has bought the land and is working on some mixed-use plans for the space. Of course, it helps that the location is at Edmond's busiest intersection...

Frozen Sooner

9/4/2006, 04:25 PM

Much as I don't really like Wal-Mart, it doesn't seem like they move out of their boxes willy-nilly without having a plan for the land. It doesn't seem to make very good business sense-why would you WANT to hang on to a huge chunk of commercially-zoned real estate as a non-performing asset?

I can only really see it happening when they move away from an economically depressed area-and I can't really fault a company from closing a non-performing store to move to a better location in the same community.

Here's a tip for real-estate speculation, by the way: if you find out McDonald's bought any land, buy land nearby before they start to build.

OUinFLA

9/4/2006, 04:40 PM

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah............................

Alternatively, the retailer may pay a hefty fine which the city must keep in trust and only use to subsidize private renovation of the space to make it suitable for new or existing businesses which are willing to occupy the space.

There, I feel better.

I suspect if you will investigate, the "fine" you wish to have imposed, most likely already exists. It is called property taxes.
Bare land gets taxed as ...........well, bare land. Even down here in Florida, bare land isnt taxed for very much.

However...............throw up a building, and it is taxed by the square foot of the size of the building. That tax down here in Florida is ...... well, huge.

I imagine you will find that Wally-debil is paying a huge tax bill on that "abandoned" building each year while they are "in the market" for a buyer of the property. Taxes help us all you know. :D

Our abandoned 10 yr old Wally-debil building which was vacated for the new SuperCenter 2 miles north, sat vacant for over 3 years. It is now a brand spankin new Lowes. Lowes tore it all down, including the parking lot, and rebuilt.

Ask yourself this, if you owned a piece of land with a building on it, and decided to close up, relocate, or needed to expand beyond that lot's capability, would you want to tear down the structure? Or, would you prefer to try to sell the facilites to someone who actually might find a use for the existing structure? Not every one purchasing a facility has the bank roll of Wally debil. Along with the capability of tearing down and rebuilding.

Think in terms of owning a farm, with a house and a barn. Retiring, and moving to the lakefront cottage you have bought. Would you want to "have" to tear down the home and barn? Or, sell it as is?

I know you remember me telling you about our church buying an older mall in downtown Lakeland a few years ago. It was about 1/4 Sam's Club and WM was still paying the building owners rent on the Sam's portion for 5 more years at the time we bought it. That amounted to an income of about 3.5 mil to the owners(which got passed to my church when we bought the mall). WM had closed that Sam's club 5 years earlier. So, I am assuming that WM has built into their profit structure long-term tax and lease payments before they ever break ground on new structures.

Jimminy Crimson

9/4/2006, 04:54 PM

I think in Edmond, if you vacate a business, unless it sells, you are responsible for the upkeep and maintainance of said property - be it landscaping or structure.

MamaMia

9/4/2006, 05:20 PM

Why do they close ALL the self-check lanes when all the lanes they do have open are jammed with at least a 20 minute waiting period?

SoonerInKCMO

9/4/2006, 05:45 PM

Lawyerin' school is turning Homey into a liberal. Next summer, I bet he's interning at the local ACLU office.

;)

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 07:05 PM

Lawyerin' school is turning Homey into a liberal. Next summer, I bet he's interning at the local ACLU office.

;)

No. I'm not a liberal. I just love Oklahoma and a don't like seeing her soil despoiled by a bunch of rich arseholes over in western Arkansas. I bet if Sam's wife were still alive (an OU grad BTW) she'd make 'em cut it out.

For the record, I'm delighted we won that chicken sh1t case in which we sued those monstrous Arkie pig and chicken outfits which are draining their slops into our watercourses and water table.

I'm also pretty PO-ed that metro OKC/Moore/Norman is hankering to pipe off water from my beloved Arbuckle-Simpson Aquifer to water golf courses and such. (see my sig for details on that little fandango)

No, I'm not a liberal, but I'm an enivironmentalist after a fashion...one who believes its okay to hunt and kill game too.

Okla-homey

9/4/2006, 07:07 PM

I think in Edmond, if you vacate a business, unless it sells, you are responsible for the upkeep and maintainance of said property - be it landscaping or structure.

That's good, cuz there ain't no way property taxes on the empty building alone could cover it.

BajaOklahoma

9/4/2006, 10:22 PM

When Food Lion closed so many of their old stores in our area, the school bought several of them for various reason - two special programs centers (alternative schools, one for the younger kids and one for the older ones), warehouse space, offices for auxillary staff (support staff for vision and hearing impaired students) and so on.
One building now houses the Child Advocacy Center. CPS rents space in their, so everything a child in crisis needs is in one place. Wonderful place.

The WalMart closest to our house was remodeled about 2 years ago. It already looks like ****. Cheap construction and customers with no respect for other's property. I avoid that one.

OUinFLA

9/4/2006, 10:34 PM

The WalMart closest to our house was remodeled about 2 years ago. It already looks like ****. Cheap construction and customers with no respect for other's property. I avoid that one.

When our Nigerian money comes in, you will never have to shop there again.
Seriously :D

Scott D

9/5/2006, 05:14 AM

heh this thread amuses me. Homey, if WalMart chose to remodel a store they could do it, and do it without closing the store. Instead they are choosing to build (more than likely 99% of the time) a larger store at a relatively nearby location that shows they should get 'more' traffic in the store than their current location.

Target generally chooses to remodel their stores rather than build new ones, and the remodeling project generally takes a few months depending on what they are doing to it.

TUSooner

9/5/2006, 11:06 AM

RiddlerOK

9/5/2006, 11:13 AM

Best use for an emptied big-box retailer:

Turn the empty building into an Incredible Pizza Company!

There you go! Problem solved!

royalfan5

9/5/2006, 12:40 PM

No commenst on the "Age of WalMart or whatever that show was on CNBC yesterday afternoon (it was boring day, and I was tired after all the lawn mowing.) I thought it was a pretty fair and thorough look at both the good and the bad of the megalo corporation.

In a nutshell: It seemed almost cult-like and spooky, but modern and impressive. Much to admire, and some stuff to fear.

Bottom line:
Cutting costs & prices is a two-edged sword.
I just read the Wal-Mart Effect by Charles Fishman yesterday. It covered a lot of the stuff that documenatary did. Wal-Mart truly does provide a lot of good and a lot of bad, and are the most secerative public company around. However, Wal-Mart has wrung the costs so much, that they are starting to paint themselves into a little bit of a corner domesticallly in terms of future growth. Same store growth is starting to stagnate, and their attempts to move upscale may be more difficult than they anticipated because they culture isn't geared to do that well.

sooner n houston

9/5/2006, 03:47 PM

Homey knows not of which he speaks, ok post. :D

Wal-Mart spend millions a year to sell or donate old stores to charities. As pointed out earlier, paying taxes on an abandoned building is not much fun for any corp. WM has a division, right here in Bentonville, that does nothing but deal with what to do with old stores/warehouses.

LoyalFan

9/5/2006, 11:26 PM

I HATE going to WalMart. Those down here are crawling with beaners, their unruly, squalling, runny-nosed brats (See: In/Over-breeding), and other assorted hairballs.
I have been there exactly once in six months, and only so I could stop by the hunting/fishing department to offer condolences to the guy that usually mans that post. "Bob" is a super nice guy whose wife of many years passed away recently. He was sincerely sympathetic and supportive when my true love died (age 34) in '03 so I was willing to enter that hellhole, however briefly.
After I got out of there, I stripped naked in the parking lot and burned my clothing.

Loyal"The Streak"Fan