Jesus Camp

[CShine]

Hmmmm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE)

[yermom]

i think i know some people that went there

[SicEmBaylor]

i think i know some people that went there

I know quite a few myself. All of them scare the hell out of me.

[Rogue]

At 5 I got saved because I just wanted more out of life.


We're being trained to be God's army.


This means war! This means war!

I'll be seeing these kids in therapy in about 20 years.

[12]

I've never fully understood the "saved vs. not saved" thing. So at five, had he died crossing the street, he would have rotted in hell?

[Okla-homey]

I've never fully understood the "saved vs. not saved" thing. So at five, had he died crossing the street, he would have rotted in hell?

I think the age of accountability varies depending on the person.

At least these kids aren't being indoctrinated to brutally kill those who don't agree with their beliefs like kids their age are in jihaadi arabia and jihaadistan.

[sanantoniosooner]

I've never fully understood the "saved vs. not saved" thing. So at five, had he died crossing the street, he would have rotted in hell?
There is a point of accountability when you have enough understanding to make your own decisions.

I see this thread possibly getting ugly and this will probably be my only post in it.

[12]

I didn't mean to stir the pot. But earlier this year, there was an awkward situation in my life involving the "saved" issue, and I have thought about it much since then.

[fadada1]

that.... was somewhat disturbing.

nothing like using a military message to promote jesus (at least that's the way i saw that).

[Okla-homey]

that.... was somewhat disturbing.

nothing like using a military message to promote jesus (at least that's the way i saw that).

Nothing new. I grew up in the 60's and 70's in a mainstream Southern Baptist church in Ardmore singing a very popular hymn called "Onward Christian Soldiers"

[sanantoniosooner]

There is a strong theme of spiritual warfare in the bible.

While you can use soldier metaphors to get the point across, it has nothing to do with jihads on your fellow man.

[Okla-homey]

There is a strong theme of spiritual warfare in the bible.

While you can use soldier metaphors to get the point across, it has nothing to do with jihads on your fellow man.

Yep. Exactly, and we used to "pledge allegiance to the Christian flag" during Vacation Bible School just like those kids. For the record, I did not evolve into a crazed fanatical whack-job nor did anyone with whom I pledged:


I Pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Savior for whose Kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again with life and liberty to all who believe.

Everytime I hear this hymn, it brings back happy memories. Its not sung too much anymore because its not PC. In fact, its now not even included in many hymnals. Originally composed and written during the Civil War.


Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Refrain

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;
On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.

Refrain

Like a mighty army moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.
We are not divided, all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.

Refrain

What the saints established that I hold for true.
What the saints believèd, that I believe too.
Long as earth endureth, men the faith will hold,
Kingdoms, nations, empires, in destruction rolled.

Refrain

Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane,
But the church of Jesus constant will remain.
Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail;
We have Christ’s own promise, and that cannot fail.

Refrain

Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng,
Blend with ours your voices in the triumph song.
Glory, laud and honor unto Christ the King,
This through countless ages men and angels sing.

Refrain

[Octavian]

While you can use soldier metaphors to get the point across, it has nothing to do with jihads on your fellow man.

that's a very slippery slope.

Combining the language of war w/ the language of God and then expecting people to differentiate the metaphor from the message is, at best, dangerous.

Human beings will do absolutely anything if they believe they're serving a diety and He has their back.

[sanantoniosooner]

that's a very slippery slope.

Combining the language of war w/ the language of God and then expecting people to differentiate the metaphor from the message is, at best, dangerous.

Human beings will do absolutely anything if they believe they're serving a diety and He has their back.
yeah.........thinking is hard.

[Okla-homey]

that's a very slippery slope.

Combining the language of war w/ the language of God and then expecting people to differentiate the metaphor from the message is, at best, dangerous.

Human beings will do absolutely anything if they believe they're serving a diety and He has their back.

Its that whole "duality of man" thing.

The eagle bears an olive branch symbol of peace in one claw, and the arrows of war in the other. Yikes!;)

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5198/aaagreatsealus2uj8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Rogue]

SAS, you're prolly right, this thread will get ugly sooner or later.
:pop:
Being an instigator from way back, I found a review of this movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/




Author: Andrew LaFollette from Silver Spring, MD


I saw this film at the Silverdocs festival, expecting it to be little more than an oddball slice of Americana, but I was pleasantly surprised.

"Jesus Camp" revolves around a pentecostal minister who hosts a summer camp for children in North Dakota, and the sectarian Christian conservative families who send their children to this camp. Directors Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady wisely chose to avoid the polemical tone of most politically-motivated films, and instead opt to present a mostly unfiltered glimpse of this odd subculture. But through carefully selected images and the use of talk radio commentary as a framing device, they construct a subtle, yet damning narrative about a religious movement that isolates its children from mainstream culture, indoctrinates them into right-wing causes, and uses them as political props.

At Jesus Camp, the daily activities include standard camp fare such as spelunking and go-karts, but they also include speaking in tongues and smashing coffee mugs emblazoned with the word "government". Children learn that "science doesn't prove anything," and learn to consider themselves part of an Army of God. They are compelled to pledge that they will fight to end abortion. They are even pushed into publicly confessing their impure thoughts, and many of them cry and wail charismatically.

The camp director explains that she admires the way Islamic cultures raise children so devoted they will risk their lives for their faith. When we ultimately see several of the campers being placed by their parents on the steps of the Capitol with tape over their mouths, protesting abortion, the real purpose of this camp is driven home.

But the most touching scenes are the ones where the children are alone, and we see the ways that this indoctrination creeps into the most innocent elements of childhood. 11 year old Tori loves dancing to Christian rock, but frets that it's not always easy to dance for God instead of "dancing for the flesh." On an outing to the bowling alley, 9 year old Rachael feels compelled to walk up to strangers and awkwardly evangelize to them, without being prompted. A roomful of boys telling ghost stories after dark are interrupted by an adult who warns them about stories that don't glorify God.

No doubt some viewers will accuse the filmmakers of the dreaded liberal bias. But this is not a work of fiction, nor is it slanted reporting. These are real people and real events, captured on film. If the evangelical movement comes off badly in this film, the people on screen have no one but themselves to blame.

[Octavian]

Its that whole "duality of man" thing.

The eagle bears an olive branch symbol of peace in one claw, and the arrows of war in the other. Yikes!;)

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5198/aaagreatsealus2uj8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I bet this thread will get around to global warming on about page 8. ;)

No, I just don't think that's what JC was getting at...but that's JMO.

[sanantoniosooner]

I'm not saying some aren't "out there" or take it too far.

Out there, is a relative term I suppose. Those are out there to me, but I might be out there to some people around here.

[Okla-homey]

I'm not saying some aren't "out there" or take it too far.

Out there, is a relative term I suppose. Those are out there to me, but I might be out there to some people around here.

And in this country, unlike much of the world, you are free to raise your kids to believe just about any religious view you want...even in the flying spaghetti monster. I tend to view pentecostalism as pretty far "out there," but its their right and its worthy of a seat at the table of religious discourse.

I do find it quite slanted and biased of the reviewer (above) to paint all evangelical Christians with the same brush. If the filmmakers did that too, they didn't do their homework and instead merely made the same sort of belief bashing sensationalist film many evangelicals have come to expect.

[sanantoniosooner]

I haven't been bit by a snake yet.

[Okla-homey]

I haven't been bit by a snake yet.

Me neither, and I only speak in tongues when I accidentally hit my thumb with a hammer.

[OklahomaTuba]

Those people aren't out there anymore than some of the crap that goes on at summer sports camps. They are simply worshiping as there church sees fit. People who have some sort of problem with this are being stupid.

[OklahomaTuba]

I do find it quite slanted and biased of the reviewer (above) to paint all evangelical Christians with the same brush. If the filmmakers did that too, they didn't do their homework and instead merely made the same sort of belief bashing sensationalist film many evangelicals have come to expect.

Heh.

Look for it on DVD in the .99 bin at blockbuster with the Micheal Moore "documentaries" or what ever they call them these days. :D

[sanantoniosooner]

Those people aren't out there anymore than some of the crap that goes on at summer sports camps. They are simply worshiping as there church sees fit. People who have some sort of problem with this are being stupid.
One thing that makes me uncomfortable is teaching kids that the government is the enemy.

It's got a lot of problems, but seeing it as the enemy is a bad way to go through life. If you have a problem with the government, vote and lobby. Don't build a compound mentality.

[royalfan5]

One thing that makes me uncomfortable is teaching kids that the government is the enemy.

It's got a lot of problems, but seeing it as the enemy is a bad way to go through life. If you have a problem with the government, vote and lobby. Don't build a compound mentality.
Securing a perimeter against the ATF is a lot harder without a compound.

[Okla-homey]

One thing that makes me uncomfortable is teaching kids that the government is the enemy.

It's got a lot of problems, but seeing it as the enemy is a bad way to go through life. If you have a problem with the government, vote and lobby. Don't build a compound mentality.

Good point. If they are in fact teaching their kids the government is the enemy, that is wrong. Unfortunately, lots of kids get that from different quarters. I seem to recall there are those who are teaching their kids Bush blew up the levees in NOLA and that the CIA developed and distributed crack to keep the poor man down.

[OklahomaTuba]

One thing that makes me uncomfortable is teaching kids that the government is the enemy.

It's got a lot of problems, but seeing it as the enemy is a bad way to go through life. If you have a problem with the government, vote and lobby. Don't build a compound mentality.
I must have missed that part then. I did turn it off after a few, cause my computer is slow. If that is the case, then that is going too far, I agree.

[OklahomaTuba]

Good point. If they are in fact teaching their kids the government is the enemy, that is wrong. Unfortunately, lots of kids get that from different quarters. I seem to recall there are those who are teaching their kids Bush blew up the levees in NOLA and that the CIA developed and distributed crack to keep the poor man down.
Ahh, the church of liberalism. ;)

[Rogue]

I'd rather send my kid to band camp.

[sanantoniosooner]

I must have missed that part then. I did turn it off after a few, cause my computer is slow. If that is the case, then that is going too far, I agree.

At Jesus Camp, the daily activities include standard camp fare such as spelunking and go-karts, but they also include speaking in tongues and smashing coffee mugs emblazoned with the word "government".

according to the reviewer of the film

[royalfan5]

How do you come up with the idea to represent Gov't with a coffee mug? Wouldn't you want to choose a more monolithic symbol?

[sanantoniosooner]

How do you come up with the idea to represent Gov't with a coffee mug? Wouldn't you want to choose a more monolithic symbol?
They were probably double dipping by bashing coffee also.

I'm down with that.

[Okla-homey]

I do agree Starbucks is the debbil. Its just as pervasive as Wal-mart but limousine libz don't seem to mind as much since they patronize the company and they don't want to poop all over a place they shop.;)

[royalfan5]

They were probably double dipping by bashing coffee also.

I'm down with that.
Well, Coffee was a joint development of the Tri-Lateral commission and the Illuminati.

[Ike]

At Jesus Camp, the daily activities include standard camp fare such as spelunking and go-karts, but they also include speaking in tongues and smashing coffee mugs emblazoned with the word "government".
according to the reviewer of the film


I always wondered where they teach people how to speak in tounges. Now I know.

[sanantoniosooner]

I always wondered where they teach people how to speak in tounges. Now I know.
watch it...........

[Okla-homey]

Technically speaking, no one teaches a person to speak in tongues. It is scripturally a gift of the Holy Spirit. That said, it was given (per Acts) as a means of evangelizing those with whom the evangelizing person did not share a common language. It is described literally as a divine means of communication. In some sects however, speaking in unintelligible languages is seen as a mark of holiness which I think is a stretch.

I've a friend who jokes that all you really have to remember if you are hanging out with those types is to mumble "she came in a Honda and left in Mazda" over and over with your eyes kinda rolled back and while rocking back and forth on your heels and you're in.;)

[sanantoniosooner]

It's "See me tie my bow tie"

Get it right.

[Okla-homey]

It's "See me tie my bow tie"

Get it right.

Oh, like a flippin' tongue can't be more short "O" vowel-centric than a long "I" vowel centric tongue huh? Sheesh.;)

[Ike]

Technically speaking, no one teaches a person to speak in tongues. It is scripturally a gift of the Holy Spirit. That said, it was given (per Acts) as a means of evangelizing those with whom the evangelizing person did not share a common language. It is described literally as a divine means of communication. In some sects however, speaking in unintelligible languages is seen as a mark of holiness which I think is a stretch.

I've a friend who jokes that all you really have to remember if you are hanging out with those types is to mumble "she came in a Honda and left in Mazda" over and over with your eyes kinda rolled back and while rocking back and forth on your heels and you're in.;)


Yeah, I know all that....its just that I've been to more than a few churches where people will spontaneously get up and start spouting gibberish....I've usually turned to the friend that brought me to the church and asked what the hell they were doing, only to get the reply "speaking in tounges, duh"...as if I were somehow retarded for not being able to understand what was being said. I always wondered a) why it is that tounge speakers couldn't be understood by anyone (contrary to what the bible says) and b) where they learn to so elegantly speak in gibberish.




Needless to say that unlike the the speaking in tounges that was exhibited by Jesus' disciples, the tounge speaking I have witnessed has not brought this heathen any closer to Jesus...

[soonercody]

Roger Miller, Dave Matthews, and jazz musicians call it "scat".

[Okla-homey]

Needless to say that unlike the the speaking in tounges that was exhibited by Jesus' disciples, the tounge speaking I have witnessed has not brought this heathen any closer to Jesus...

We are in agreement. When it is a "hey look how holy I am" thing, it's often counter-productive.

[royalfan5]

We are in agreement. When it is a "hey look how holy I am" thing, it's often counter-productive.
That's the great thing about being Lutheran. Showing off in that manner is frowned upon.

[Okla-homey]

That's the great thing about being Lutheran. Showing off in that manner is frowned upon.

But you gotta love getting cut-off in traffic by a van with a Jesus fish sticker. Hey pal, WWJD? Sheesh, I hate that kinda hypocrisy.:mad:

[royalfan5]

But you gotta love getting cut-off in traffic by a van with a Jesus fish sticker. Hey pal, WWJD? Sheesh, I hate that kinda hypocrisy.:mad:
It's just as annoying to get cut-off by someone rocking a Darwin fish eating a Jesus fish sticker though. I'm pretty sure Jesus would just part the traffic himself, or at least turn red lights to green on command.

[Jerk]

What's even better is that these people breed like rabbits. The Hugo Chavez/Rage against the Machine/Red manifesto type crowd do not- at least the white ones.

[sanantoniosooner]

What's even better is that these people breed like rabbits. The Hugo Chavez/Rage against the Machine/Red manifesto type crowd do not- at least the white ones.
You had relatives killed in the crusades, didn't you?

[Jerk]

You had relatives killed in the crusades, didn't you?

Nah, it was teh War of Northern Aggression.

[Okla-homey]

You had relatives killed in the crusades, didn't you?

I am so proud of the fact we Christians got past that whole Crusade battle cry "God Wills It" by about 1300AD. Unfortunately, the jihaadis have yet to figure out that God doesn't need any help if He decides to make something happen down here in the way of killin' and stuff.

[Jerk]

I am so proud of the fact we Christians got past that whole Crusade battle cry "God Wills It" by about 1300AD. Unfortunately, the jihaadis have yet to figure out that God doesn't need any help if He decides to make something happen down here in the way of killin' and stuff.

Except the calvinists- where your eternal fate in Hell is sealed before you're born. I like that Catholic thingy where you can buy yourself out of certain levels of Hell.

I just love how that video just perturbs the libs. RAGE can make a song about killing rich people but a bunch of kids worshipping God?? ohhhhhhhhh no!!!

[Okla-homey]

I just love how that video just perturbs the libs. RAGE can make a song about killing rich people but a bunch of kids worshipping God?? ohhhhhhhhh no!!!

You nailed it bro. Its all about point of view.

[Jerk]

You nailed it bro. Its all about point of view.

It was actaully just some snarky commentary, and sorry if I offended the Calvinists. I'm actually close to being one, minus the whole immortal soul thing (I believe in a resserrection from the DEAD, and that God will destroy the wicked), but that is for another day.

[badger]

the video is... interesting...

[Jerk]

the video is... interesting...

Don't worry, I don't think they are planning on hijacking airplanes and flying them into large sky-scrapers. The pentocostals and charasmatics can be kind of weird, but they are less of a threat to you than your neighborhood tom cat. I think "the problem" some people (i.e. liberals )see here is the way they tend to vote, among other things which I shall not venture into.

[sanantoniosooner]

Yeah.

It's OK to believe something, just don't let your voting record reflect it.

[Jerk]

Yeah.

It's OK to believe something, just don't let your voting record reflect it.

Yeah, that, and you better believe that the U.S. Supreme Court has more authority than God, even if you're a believer.

[StoopTroup]

Warren Jefferies is the one who could really explain all of this to all of you...

[Rogue]

Their "harmlessness" is debatable.

[Hamhock]

Except the bible- where your eternal fate in Hell is sealed before you're born.


fixed ;)

Eph 1: 4-6


Also, where do you guys get an age of accountability from scripture? It's an honest question. I did some searching after losing a child and can't find it.

[crawfish]

fixed ;)

Eph 1: 4-6


Also, where do you guys get an age of accountability from scripture? It's an honest question. I did some searching after losing a child and can't find it.

I think it's derived from Matthew 18:3

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

My personal belief is that there is no set age: it's simply the time one moves on to their own faith instead of simply echoing their parents' faith. Or, when one should know better.

[JohnnyMack]

What's even better is that these people breed like rabbits. The Hugo Chavez/Rage against the Machine/Red manifesto type crowd do not- at least the white ones.

It's not a coincidence that the Catholic church is against any form of birth control either.

[JohnnyMack]

expecting people to differentiate the metaphor from the message is, at best, dangerous.

That's one of my big problems with organized religion.

[Hamhock]

I think it's derived from Matthew 18:3

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

My personal belief is that there is no set age: it's simply the time one moves on to their own faith instead of simply echoing their parents' faith. Or, when one should know better.


Interesting take. I assumed the reference to children was to highlight humility, as mentioned in the next verse.

[Jerk]

fixed ;)

Eph 1: 4-6




So..., I already said that I'm a calvinists minus the immortal soul part. Where does this verse contradict my belief?

BTW- did you know that every "Hell" translation in the Bible is from one proper noun to another, and most of them came from either sheol (hebrew) or hades(greek), meaning 'grave'?

Next thing you'll do is probably pull out the old Rich Man and Lazarus parable or the Matthew verse. That's okay, I got that covered, and in addition I'd like to ask you why in the world would you need to have a resserrection from the DEAD if you can't die, because if you have an immortal soul that can't die, then what's Resserrection Day for?

Genesis 3:4

[crawfish]

Interesting take. I assumed the reference to children was to highlight humility, as mentioned in the next verse.

Humility, and faith.

You're not going to find anything direct to support an "age of accountability" theology. However, I believe if you read between the lines it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

Unless there are political motivations involved, of course (original sin). :)

[Hamhock]

Unless there are political motivations involved, of course (original sin). :)


i didn't understand this part. 'splain it?

[crawfish]

i didn't understand this part. 'splain it?

The doctrine of original sin - or that the curse of Adam & Eve's sin is carried by each new life from the moment of conception - was instigated as a method of keeping the masses under the control of the Catholic church. They were in sole (sic) control of your salvation from birth to death, in other words.

That is, of course, my opinion.

[Hamhock]

The doctrine of original sin - or that the curse of Adam & Eve's sin is carried by each new life from the moment of conception - was instigated as a method of keeping the masses under the control of the Catholic church. They were in sole (sic) control of your salvation from birth to death, in other words.

That is, of course, my opinion.

so, you believe that the fall does not carry down? we are not born into sin? each person is a blank slate at birth? are you nazarene?

[soonercody]

Talk about your kids falling in with the wrong crowd.

[crawfish]

so, you believe that the fall does not carry down? we are not born into sin? each person is a blank slate at birth? are you nazarene?

Far from it.

The fall represents man's separation from God. What we inherit is not "sin", but a life with that separation. God's grace is the only thing that allows us to bridge the gap.

Sin is a concious act of rebellion towards God. Young children are incapable of such rebellion - only when one has reached a certain level of maturity are they able to make such a choice.

[Stoop Dawg]

Yeah, I know all that....its just that I've been to more than a few churches where people will spontaneously get up and start spouting gibberish....I've usually turned to the friend that brought me to the church and asked what the hell they were doing, only to get the reply "speaking in tounges, duh"...as if I were somehow retarded for not being able to understand what was being said. I always wondered a) why it is that tounge speakers couldn't be understood by anyone (contrary to what the bible says) and b) where they learn to so elegantly speak in gibberish.




Needless to say that unlike the the speaking in tounges that was exhibited by Jesus' disciples, the tounge speaking I have witnessed has not brought this heathen any closer to Jesus...

The spontaneous spouting must be followed by a translation in order to be valid. I've sat through many uncomfortable silences waiting for said translation.

[sanantoniosooner]

I have witnessed tongues and seen it edify individuals and groups.

If you've had a crappy experience with it, take it up with the management.

[crawfish]

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[sanantoniosooner]

I'll remember just how offensive each one of you have been.

And you wont even be able to understand it when I rip you a new one.