View Full Version : So if that co-pilot pulls through
Penguin
8/27/2006, 06:23 PM
He's going to be facing some serious questions.
Wrong runway. Holy cow.
Most people perished in the fire. Good Lord. What a nightmare.
Newbomb Turk
8/27/2006, 06:34 PM
Most people perished in the fire. Good Lord. What a nightmare.
no doubt - what a horrible way to go.
royalfan5
8/27/2006, 06:39 PM
I don't understand how somebody on the plane or in the control tower couldn't have caught that before it was too late.
How many times have you been on a plane where the pilot says you're cleared for take off while you're still on the taxiway. the next thing you know you're turning a corner and accelerating.
I'd imagine that the runways were set up so that once he was given clearance he could have pulled onto either runway. probably happened so fast the tower didn't have time recognize the situation.
bigdsooner
8/27/2006, 07:14 PM
i musta missed somethin, what the hell happened?
LilSooner
8/27/2006, 07:16 PM
Jet was on wrong runway. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14540419/)
if the runways and taxiways aren't labeled well, and the crew is not familiar with the airport, it could happen.
Penguin
8/27/2006, 07:54 PM
LEX airport on Google maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=lex&ie=UTF8&z=15&ll=38.036262,-84.60391&spn=0.024404,0.054245&t=h&om=1)
so you have to pass runway 26 to get to runway 22.
Penguin
8/27/2006, 07:57 PM
How many times have you been on a plane where the pilot says you're cleared for take off while you're still on the taxiway. the next thing you know you're turning a corner and accelerating.
I'd imagine that the runways were set up so that once he was given clearance he could have pulled onto either runway. probably happened so fast the tower didn't have time recognize the situation.
Looking at the map, that's probably what happened. I could imagine them taxiing from the terminal and taking the first left.
I think it was reporter on MSNBC that said that the short runway's lights are usually turned off, but for some reason they were on at the time of the accident.
Looking at the map, that's probably what happened. I could imagine them taxiing from the terminal and taking the first left.
I think it was reporter on MSNBC that said that the short runway's lights are usually turned off, but for some reason they were on at the time of the accident.
tragic if that's the case. the lights are no excuse as every plane has to have the appropriate charts and plates for the airports they're flying to.
Looking at the map, that's probably what happened. I could imagine them taxiing from the terminal and taking the first left.
I think it was reporter on MSNBC that said that the short runway's lights are usually turned off, but for some reason they were on at the time of the accident.
thats what I was thinking too. God, I can't imagine what the passengers were thinking when the runway started getting a little too bumpy.
I feel for those families.
royalfan5
8/27/2006, 08:24 PM
I know next to nothing about this sort of thing except for briefly living with a licensed pilot, but why aren't they some sort of electronic monitoring systems that could/would immediately alert the crew that they are on the wrong runaway or other similar situations.
Penguin
8/27/2006, 08:36 PM
Couldn't they just glance at a compass to make sure they're on the right runway?
I guess that isn't on the pre-takeoff checklist.
I know next to nothing about this sort of thing except for briefly living with a licensed pilot, but why aren't they some sort of electronic monitoring systems that could/would immediately alert the crew that they are on the wrong runaway or other similar situations.
Just a hunch, but I wonder if this may make the FAA create a rule stating that no plane may be given clearance for takeoff until they are positioned for takeoff on the runway.
Granted, I don't know **** about the way air travel works, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Okla-homey
8/27/2006, 09:51 PM
Ummm, excuse me, but the clowns in the tower who give permission to start engines, give taxi clearance and instructions and permission to take an active runway for take-off are supposed to be visually monitoring the entire process from start to take-off and are culpable in this too IMHO. Those guys must have been smoking weed or something.
It will be interesting to hear the tower tapes about precisely what instructions that crew was given.
Granted, the guy in the left seat is ultimately responsible and if he was confused about WTF he was told he should have stopped and asked for clarification or even a flippin' "follow me" truck if necessary. But, sounds like there may be lots of blame to go around just based on the facts as i understand them at this preliminary stage.
I've learned one thing about aircraft crashes. Never, ever take what the goobers on TV say about what might have happened, especially in the early stages of a crash investigation.
Ummm, excuse me, but the clowns in the tower who give permission to start engines, give taxi clearance and instructions and permission to take an active runway for take-off are supposed to be visually monitoring the entire process from start to take-off and are culpable in this too IMHO. Those guys must have been smoking weed or something.
It will be interesting to hear the tower tapes about precisely what instructions that crew was given.
Granted, the guy in the left seat is ultimately responsible and if he was confused about WTF he was told he should have stopped and asked for clarification or even a flippin' "follow me" truck if necessary. But, sounds like there may be lots of blame to go around just based on the facts as i understand them at this preliminary stage.
I've learned one thing about aircraft crashes. Never, ever take what the goobers on TV say about what might have happened, especially in the early stages of a crash investigation.
I haven't heard what the goobers on TV are saying cause, well, I try not to watch much TV....Im just going off my gut and what I've read so far....which isn't a whole lot. I did think that the tower was responsible for monitoring the whole process, but given how little I know about air travel regulations, I thought "maybe I was wrong" when I didn't see anything written asking WTF were the air traffic controllers doing?
Okla-homey
8/27/2006, 10:18 PM
Just a hunch, but I wonder if this may make the FAA create a rule stating that no plane may be given clearance for takeoff until they are positioned for takeoff on the runway.
No. Such safeguards are already in place unless someone is high.
before being cleared on to the runway, Tower either says, "cleared for takeoff" and ALWAYS cites the runway (example: "Commair 169 cleared for takeoff runway 18 left" ) or "Commair 169 taxi into position and hold rwy 18 left."
Not to mention the freakin' big yellow signs at the runway threshold telling you which runway it is and the 50 foot tall numbers painted at the approach and departure ends the crew should be able to read night or day, .
They don't just say, "hey you, cleared for take-off wherever you are on whatever runway you happen to be on"
Okla-homey
8/27/2006, 10:20 PM
I haven't heard what the goobers on TV are saying cause, well, I try not to watch much TV....Im just going off my gut and what I've read so far....which isn't a whole lot. I did think that the tower was responsible for monitoring the whole process, but given how little I know about air travel regulations, I thought "maybe I was wrong" when I didn't see anything written asking WTF were the air traffic controllers doing?
They must have been out sick the day they covered that area in FAA ATC skool in OKC.
so who's to blame if the tower said the correct runway on the clearance command but the pilot/co-pilot departed from the incorrect runway? especially if corrective radio calls were not made from the tower after the RJ started to roll.
will the surviving co-pilot be the scape goat in this all?
KABOOKIE
8/27/2006, 10:33 PM
Not to mention the freakin' big RED signs at the runway threshold telling you which runway it is
Ehem....;)
so who's to blame if the tower said the correct runway on the clearance command but the pilot/co-pilot departed from the incorrect runway? especially if corrective radio calls were not made from the tower after the RJ started to roll.
will the surviving co-pilot be the scape goat in this all?
based on my limited knowledge, I am guessing there had to be multiple foulups by multiple people. One of those things thats unlikely to happen due to the number of people that are supposed to check that everything is A-OK...but even with safeguards to make an event like that unlikely, statistically, multiple compounding foulups are bound to happen....just not often.
jk the sooner fan
8/27/2006, 10:58 PM
the one report i read said there was only one person in the tower at the time....not sure if thats true or not
proud gonzo
8/27/2006, 11:04 PM
yeah, things like this don't happen because of one mistake. they happen when lots of mistakes occur all at the same time.
olevetonahill
8/27/2006, 11:06 PM
the article said the Airport had been closed for runway resurfacing . I wonder if maybe the runways were not marked . but regardless there are always signs sticking up pointing you in the way you should go .
If the runways were not marked then it rest rite on the ground controllers
eother way i would think the GC crews would be a min of 50% at fault
nanimonai
8/27/2006, 11:12 PM
There needs to be some criminal chrages when the investigation is complete.
Okla-homey
8/28/2006, 05:05 AM
Ehem....;)
Yeah, they're red. taxiway signs are yeller. ya got me.;)
Gandalf_The_Grey
8/28/2006, 11:13 AM
Actually according to the news and papers...it is the Emmy's and Conan's fault for spoofing Lost :rolleyes:
SoonerInKCMO
8/28/2006, 11:20 AM
They must have been out sick the day they covered that area in FAA ATC skool in OKC.
Oh sure - now you're blaming OKC. Just like one of you slimy Tulsanites to do that.
;)
Okla-homey
8/28/2006, 05:42 PM
I'll tell you something else very important to big airplane drivers. There comes a point in every takeoff when you reach "refusal speed." That speed is based on your ability to pull the throttles to idle, stand on the brakes and come to a stop before you reach the end of the take-off runway including the paved overrun (we called it the "prepared surface" in the USAF.)
Those poor devils probably hit refusal speed at about half the speed they normally do given they needed 5000' to get safely airborne and the runway was only about 3500'. The fact they were well above refusal speed when they finally figured out they were out of runway and ideas is what killed them in the end.
At some point on that takeoff roll, those people were dead and didn't even know it and just kept reading their inflight magazines another 20 seconds or so until the fireball.
tommie15
8/28/2006, 06:37 PM
Just a hunch, but I wonder if this may make the FAA create a rule stating that no plane may be given clearance for takeoff until they are positioned for takeoff on the runway.
Granted, I don't know **** about the way air travel works, but it wouldn't surprise me.
What you're referring to was actually eliminated by the FAA last year.
Previously, an airplane would be given instruction to "position and hold." This means line up on the runway and wait for clearance. This was used after another airplane had departed but the spacing was not large enough for takeoff clearance or another airplane had landed and was still vacating the runway. The "position and hold" phraseology and practice was eliminated due to runway incursions.
Someone else stated that checking a compass heading should be on the checklist. That is absolutely correct, especially at an unfamiliar airport with multiple runways.
There will likely be some ground/tower involvement in this tragedy, but runways are numbered based on magnetic heading. Thus, when the pilots lined up on the runway they should have noticed that the jet was heading 260 vice 220 as indicated by cockpit instruments they normally reference.
KABOOKIE
8/28/2006, 09:21 PM
I'll tell you something else very important to big airplane drivers. There comes a point in every takeoff when you reach "refusal speed." That speed is based on your ability to pull the throttles to idle, stand on the brakes and come to a stop before you reach the end of the take-off runway including the paved overrun (we called it the "prepared surface" in the USAF.)
Those poor devils probably hit refusal speed at about half the speed they normally do given they needed 5000' to get safely airborne and the runway was only about 3500'. The fact they were well above refusal speed when they finally figured out they were out of runway and ideas is what killed them in the end.
At some point on that takeoff roll, those people were dead and didn't even know it and just kept reading their inflight magazines another 20 seconds or so until the fireball.
I'm sure those guys never though about aborting. Given they only needed onther 1500' to be safely airborne, I'm sure they reached V1, saw the end of the runway and promtly executed an abused takeoff. The plane was then at a large AOA and unable to accelerate much past VR-5. They probably struggled 50' into the air and lost it.
KABOOKIE
8/28/2006, 09:25 PM
What you're referring to was actually eliminated by the FAA last year.
Previously, an airplane would be given instruction to "position and hold." This means line up on the runway and wait for clearance. This was used after another airplane had departed but the spacing was not large enough for takeoff clearance or another airplane had landed and was still vacating the runway. The "position and hold" phraseology and practice was eliminated due to runway incursions.
Someone else stated that checking a compass heading should be on the checklist. That is absolutely correct, especially at an unfamiliar airport with multiple runways.
"Position and hold" and "Landing-Hold-Short-Operations" are still being used today.
Penguin
8/29/2006, 04:39 AM
I just saw on the news that according to the voice recorder, the co-pilot was in charge of the flight.
The lone survivor might just come down with a convenient case of amnesia.
tommie15
8/29/2006, 08:49 AM
"Position and hold" and "Landing-Hold-Short-Operations" are still being used today.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/12_10a/briefs/191713-1.html
My understanding is it can still be use with special permission from the airport manager, but that is rare. I didn't mention LAHSO in my post, so I don't know where that cam from.
Hamhock
8/29/2006, 08:55 AM
There will likely be some ground/tower involvement in this tragedy, but runways are numbered based on magnetic heading. Thus, when the pilots lined up on the runway they should have noticed that the jet was heading 260 vice 220 as indicated by cockpit instruments they normally reference.
Are you saying they had the wrong vector, Victor?
The FAA has admited they violated staffing policies with only one controller in the tower.
cnn.com
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