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sooner n houston
8/24/2006, 02:49 PM
Point of no return?

By Thomas Sowell


It is hard to think of a time when a nation — and a whole civilization — has drifted more futilely toward a bigger catastrophe than that looming over the United States and western civilization today.


Nuclear weapons in the hands of Iran and North Korea mean that it is only a matter of time before there are nuclear weapons in the hands of international terrorist organizations. North Korea needs money and Iran has brazenly stated its aim as the destruction of Israel — and both its actions and its rhetoric suggest aims that extend even beyond a second Holocaust.


Send not to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee.


This is not just another in the long history of military threats. The Soviet Union, despite its massive nuclear arsenal, could be deterred by our own nuclear arsenal. But suicide bombers cannot be deterred.


Fanatics filled with hate cannot be either deterred or bought off, whether Hezbollah, Hamas or the government of Iran.


The endlessly futile efforts to bring peace to the Middle East with concessions fundamentally misconceive what forces are at work.


Hate and humiliation are key forces that cannot be bought off by "trading land for peace," by a "Palestinian homeland" or by other such concessions that might have worked in other times and places.


Humiliation and hate go together. Why humiliation? Because a once-proud, dynamic culture in the forefront of world civilizations, and still carrying a message of their own superiority to "infidels" today, is painfully visible to the whole world as a poverty-stricken and backward region, lagging far behind in virtually every field of human endeavor.


There is no way that they can catch up in a hundred years, even if the rest of the world stands still. And they are not going to wait a hundred years to vent their resentments and frustrations at the humiliating position in which they find themselves.


Israel's very existence as a modern, prosperous western nation in their midst is a daily slap across the face. Nothing is easier for demagogues than to blame Israel, the United States, or western civilization in general for their own lagging position.


Hitler was able to rouse similar resentments and fanaticism in Germany under conditions not nearly as dire as those in most Middle East countries today. The proof of similar demagogic success in the Middle East is all around.


What kind of people provide a market for videotaped beheadings of innocent hostages? What kind of people would throw an old man in a wheelchair off a cruise liner into the sea, simply because he was Jewish? What kind of people would fly planes into buildings to vent their hate at the cost of their own lives?


These are the kinds of people we are talking about getting nuclear weapons. And what of ourselves?


Do we understand that the world will never be the same after hate-filled fanatics gain the ability to wipe whole American cities off the face of the earth? Do we still imagine that they can be bought off, as Israel was urged to buy them off with "land for peace" — a peace that has proved to be wholly illusory?


Even ruthless conquerors of the past, from Genghis Khan to Adolf Hitler, wanted some tangible gains for themselves or their nations — land, wealth, dominion. What Middle East fanatics want is the destruction and humiliation of the west.


Their treatment of hostages, some of whom have been humanitarians serving the people of the Middle East, shows that what the terrorists want is to inflict the maximum pain and psychic anguish on their victims before killing them.


Once these fanatics have nuclear weapons, those victims can include you, your children and your children's children.


The terrorists need not start out by wiping our cities off the map. Chances are they would first want to force us to humiliate ourselves in whatever ways their sadistic imaginations could conceive, out of fear of their nuclear weapons.


After we, or our children and grandchildren, find ourselves living at the mercy of people with no mercy, what will future generations think of us, that we let this happen because we wanted to placate "world opinion" by not acting "unilaterally"? We are fast approaching the point of no return.

12
8/24/2006, 03:17 PM
LOL

12
8/24/2006, 03:19 PM
Not really... This is certainly a quagmire of epic proportions. I'm not sure there is a clear way out of it or to avoid it.

JohnnyMack
8/24/2006, 03:21 PM
Systemic foreign policy failures.

Oldnslo
8/24/2006, 04:45 PM
A couple of days ago, someone here took me to task for advocating using overwhelming force in the middle east.

I continue to believe that overwhelming force is the only road to solving this problem.

NormanPride
8/24/2006, 04:47 PM
I want to move to Alpha Centauri.

Widescreen
8/24/2006, 05:04 PM
Systemic foreign policy failures.
Has nothing to do with this. Unless you're wanting to go back 100 years. What current foreign policy error caused the Iranian revolution in the late 70's? Islamic fascism is self-perpetuating and won't stop no matter what we do (outside of complete capitulation or their destruction). I'm with Oldnso. We either deal with them now or we will be destroyed. Sowell is 100% correct. If we could bring the full power of our military might to bear, we could eliminate this problem. But as long as we have 1 hand tight behind our back because we're more concerned with international opinion than winning, we will lose. The clock is ticking.

JohnnyMack
8/24/2006, 05:14 PM
Has nothing to do with this. Unless you're wanting to go back 100 years.

At least.

GDC
8/24/2006, 05:16 PM
Great song by Kansas.

Harry Beanbag
8/24/2006, 05:50 PM
Has nothing to do with this. Unless you're wanting to go back 100 years. What current foreign policy error caused the Iranian revolution in the late 70's? Islamic fascism is self-perpetuating and won't stop no matter what we do (outside of complete capitulation or their destruction). I'm with Oldnso. We either deal with them now or we will be destroyed. Sowell is 100% correct. If we could bring the full power of our military might to bear, we could eliminate this problem. But as long as we have 1 hand tight behind our back because we're more concerned with international opinion than winning, we will lose. The clock is ticking.


I agree completely. But we can't do it by ourselves politically. The rest of the civilized world would think the U.S. had gone insane and would potentially/likely turn on us. As much as I hate to say it, we need the cooperation at least, participation ideally, of Europe and Russia to complete the task that needs to be done. Unfortunately, it will take something truly catastrophic to gain these allies.

Jerk
8/24/2006, 05:59 PM
Here are the four things President Jerk would do:

1) Drill for our own oil and import what we need from friendly nations.

2) Finish the job in Iraq. The model of how to "get r done" is Fallujah (http://www.cpt.org/albums/Fallujah:-One-Year-Later/F_05_11_01_Landscape_of_destruction_in_Fallujah.jp g).

3) A massive pre-emptive stike against Iran using air and sea power targeting their nuke facilities and their political offices.

4) Tell Israel to do "whatever you need to do" and get out her way.

5) Use the "MAD" doctirne against N Korea because it's been proven to work against commies.

nanimonai
8/24/2006, 06:15 PM
We simply make it policy that any use or even failed attempt at using a nuke against US, Japanese, or European targets would be considered as a nuclear attack from North Korea and would require a complete nuclear response.

That takes care of North Korea but there's not a damned thing you can do about religious fanatics.

TUSooner
8/24/2006, 07:21 PM
I pretty much agree, and might even endorse President Jerk's foreign policy. But I don't think we CAN simply kill everyone who hates us

I wouldn't totally discount the threat of annhiliation on the Islamists. Not all Iranians want to be martyrs, not even all the mullahs (many of them have it pretty cushy on this side of Paradise, I hear). Just Make it ABSOLUTELY clear that a nuke attack will result in the ABSOLUTE destuction of the nation, and Amadenijad will get muzzled and cooler heads will start appearing. And make equally sure all the Islamo-fascists know that Mecca (and the Rock) will be dustified immediately, and someone may wake up over there.

Jerk
8/24/2006, 08:52 PM
I pretty much agree, and might even endorse President Jerk's foreign policy. But I don't think we CAN simply kill everyone who hates us

I wouldn't totally discount the threat of annhiliation on the Islamists. Not all Iranians want to be martyrs, not even all the mullahs (many of them have it pretty cushy on this side of Paradise, I hear). Just Make it ABSOLUTELY clear that a nuke attack will result in the ABSOLUTE destuction of the nation, and Amadenijad will get muzzled and cooler heads will start appearing. And make equally sure all the Islamo-fascists know that Mecca (and the Rock) will be dustified immediately, and someone may wake up over there.

Yeah, me being married to a persian has taught me that they are some of the most mild, polite, family-oriented, and friendly people on earth. They are just docile. It's ashame that a few nutcases have tarnished their country.

Alot of people are too young to remember that Iran was once America's greatest ally in that region.

Okla-homey
8/25/2006, 05:31 AM
Yeah, me being married to a persian has taught me that they are some of the most mild, polite, family-oriented, and friendly people on earth. They are just docile. It's ashame that a few nutcases have tarnished their country.

Alot of people are too young to remember that Iran was once America's greatest ally in that region.

I do. In fact, I used to know several Iranians who attended my undergrad school. We were the unofficial Iranian military academy. When I started at The Citadel in 1978, we had about 100 Iranian cadets spread pretty equally among all 4 cadet battalions.

My wife's best friend ultimately married one of them. He's a great guy and they are still happily married and living in northern Virginia. He was a CE major and is now pretty high up in the Norfolk and Southern RR company.

Jerk
8/25/2006, 04:48 PM
I do. In fact, I used to know several Iranians who attended my undergrad school. We were the unofficial Iranian military academy. When I started at The Citadel in 1978, we had about 100 Iranian cadets spread pretty equally among all 4 cadet battalions.

My wife's best friend ultimately married one of them. He's a great guy and they are still happily married and living in northern Virginia. He was a CE major and is now pretty high up in the Norfolk and Southern RR company.

My wife's dad was a Colonel in the Iranian Air Force under the Shah. He got his wings from Vance AFB, where he met his American wife. They had to sneak out of the country when the revolution happened with their two girls, and if they had been caught then he certainly would have been executed. My wife's sister is married to TUSooners brother.

We have some interesting photo albums around here. Some of them with my father-in-law shaking hands with Shah Pahlavi, as well as his air force career as a pilot on their formation team.

TUSooner
8/25/2006, 06:31 PM
My wife's dad was a Colonel in the Iranian Air Force under the Shah. He got his wings from Vance AFB, where he met his American wife. They had to sneak out of the country when the revolution happened with their two girls, and if they had been caught then he certainly would have been executed. My wife's sister is married to TUSooners brother.

We have some interesting photo albums around here. Some of them with my father-in-law shaking hands with Shah Pahlavi, as well as his air force career as a pilot on their formation team.

We have a pic somewhere of my wife's GP with one of the OLD Shahs. Ironically, when we were in Paris this summer, we stayed at the apt of one my wife;s cousin whose husband was once the head of Iran's nuclear energy thingy. In fact, we ran him out of his house so we could stay there. :O
I love my Persian in-laws, all are very civil and and most are super intelligent and I should say intellectual. It's such a shame that the country is ruled by such dangerous loonies.

BY the way, jerk's FiL makes this famous Persian dish that's usually made with red meat & green stuff, but he makes it with chicken and it is AWESOME. ;)

Jerk
8/25/2006, 09:27 PM
We have a pic somewhere of my wife's GP with one of the OLD Shahs. Ironically, when we were in Paris this summer, we stayed at the apt of one my wife;s cousin whose husband was once the head of Iran's nuclear energy thingy. In fact, we ran him out of his house so we could stay there. :O
I love my Persian in-laws, all are very civil and and most are super intelligent and I should say intellectual. It's such a shame that the country is ruled by such dangerous loonies.

BY the way, jerk's FiL makes this famous Persian dish that's usually made with red meat & green stuff, but he makes it with chicken and it is AWESOME. ;)

Yeah, had some leftovers today. Most of what we eat has rice and yogurt in it. Sounds gross, but Persian food has really grown on me. Well, it's either eat it or starve, but I'm lucky because it's good.