View Full Version : Rebuilding New Orleans: An Exercise In PC Futility?
FaninAma
8/22/2006, 10:06 AM
I think so. I see nothing that changes the fact that after the country pumps billions and billions into rebuilding New Orleans that it isn't still in the same siutation as before.....just waiting for another category 3 or stronger hurricane to put it under water.
And the political correctness doesn't stop with wasting billions of tax payer dollars, it extends into other areas like the NBA and NFL forcing the teams from New Orleans to remain in New Orleans despite the fact that these teams will need to be heavily subsidized by the rest of their respective leagues to survive financially.
Plus, from what I've read, NO after being rebuilt is far more likely to be a Hispanic community than it is the "Chocolate City" that the mayor proclaimed it was during his reelection campaign since thousands of hispanics are the ones moving to the city to do the actual work of rebuilding it.
It is a classic example of the emperor having no clothes.
$186 Million dollars has gone to fix the superdome. What a f'ing waste.
picasso
8/22/2006, 10:21 AM
I've heard it said the new NO will be more middle class.
not exactly how the media is spinning it.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/images/2006/060813_b3_saint_b3saints13.jpg
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 10:24 AM
How about the next time a tornado lays waste to your home, we decide not to rebuild it? Should we give up on the city you were born & raised in, or should we just figure out a better way to rebuild it so that the next catastrophe is not as destructive?
Because it appears that tall buildings are a nice target for terrorists, should we demolish everything higher than 10 stories? Should we go back to boat travel & ground all airplanes?
I agree that the political machine in Louisiana is broken. It has been broken for a long time and no one wants to see it fixed more than I do, but sometimes you have to play with the cards you are dealt. That means you work within the system while also trying to combat the system.
As for the Hornets & the Saints, you can take the NBA for all I care, but I will have to go down kicking & screaming before I let the Saints move to San Antonio.
That's where they need to be... OKC and SA have both showed that they can support these teams better than Slum City.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 10:35 AM
That's where they need to be... OKC and SA have both showed that they can support these teams better than Slum City.
Like I said, OKC can have the Whornets for all I care. They are not real New Orleans any more than Emeril is real New Orleans.
But the Saints are not sucking on your tax dollars & they are not sucking on the NFL for funds either. They are doing what 90% of all other NFL franchises do...extorting the state for funding. I am not exactly sure how that impacts you or anyone else outside of the state lines.
Also, the Superdome is not just a facility for the Saints. There are hundreds of events that take place in the dome every year that have absolutely nothing to do with the Saints. So to think that the money invested in fixing the dome up would have been spent elsewhere if the Saints were not in N.O. is a foolish assumption.
RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
8/22/2006, 10:36 AM
Until the levees can hold under a cat 5 hurricane, the city will struggle, BIG TIME!
FaninAma
8/22/2006, 10:36 AM
How about the next time a tornado lays waste to your home, we decide not to rebuild it? Should we give up on the city you were born & raised in, or should we just figure out a better way to rebuild it so that the next catastrophe is not as destructive?
Because it appears that tall buildings are a nice target for terrorists, should we demolish everything higher than 10 stories? Should we go back to boat travel & ground all airplanes?
I agree that the political machine in Louisiana is broken. It has been broken for a long time and no one wants to see it fixed more than I do, but sometimes you have to play with the cards you are dealt. That means you work within the system while also trying to combat the system.
As for the Hornets & the Saints, you can take the NBA for all I care, but I will have to go down kicking & screaming before I let the Saints move to San Antonio.
Your missing the whole point of the thread. If NO were just like any other coastal city with the same inherrent risks from Hurricanes then I could see the sense of rebuilding it. But the location and design, as well as changing geographic and topographic factors, makes NO particulary at risk for having the same thing happen with the next hurricane.
Having a city built 20 feet below sea level surrounded by the Mississippi river, Lake Ponchatraine and the Gulf of Mexico is insane! The levy system is being rebuilt to withstand the same force as before because it would take a complete reconstruction of the system and probably many, many more billions to make NO less susceptible to flooding than it was or will be after the levy system is rebuilt.
It's stupidity and short sightedness on a massive scale but who gives a flip....it's just taxpayers' money.
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 10:39 AM
you're asking this group about what we should do if a tornado wipes out a huge swathe of homes?
that's rich.
RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
8/22/2006, 10:39 AM
Your missing the whole point of the thread. If NO were just like any other coastal city with the same inherrent risks from Hurricanes then I could see the sense of rebuilding it. But the location and design, as well as changing geographic and topographic factors, makes NO particulary at risk for having the same thing happen with the next hurricane.
Having a city built 20 feet below sea level surrounded by the Mississippi river, Lake Ponchatraine and the Gulf of Mexico is insane! The levy system is being rebuilt to withstand the same force as before because it would take a complete reconstruction of the system and probably many, many more billions to make NO less susceptible to flooding than it was or will be after the levy system is rebuilt.
It's stupidity and short sightedness on a massive scale but who gives a flip....it's just taxpayers' money.BEAUTY. I was too lazy to write all that.
It's stupidity and short sightedness on a massive scale but who gives a flip....it's just taxpayers' money.
Some people might think we've moved on to the war in Iraq with this statement.
And NO existed for as long as nearly any other city in the US while still being 20 feet below sea level, surrounded by the Mississipi River and in hurricane teritorry and this never happened before. It's easy to criticize after this disaster occurred but it managed to survive decently enough for a very long time up until a year ago. Who's to say it wouldn't be okay for another 200+ years?
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 10:43 AM
you're asking this group about what we should do if a tornado wipes out a huge swathe of homes?
that's rich.
No, that's exactly why I used the analogy. I figured I would use a disaster you could relate to.
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 10:46 AM
No, that's exactly why I used the analogy. I figured I would use a disaster you could relate to.
Why haven't you people in the NO area done what we did?
I do understand that there is a much larger mess to be cleaned up down there but you gotta start somewhere and the fine people of New Orleans don't seem to grasp that idea other than the handouts must start soon and end no time soon.
No, that's exactly why I used the analogy. I figured I would use a disaster you could relate to.
except that the feds didn't give billions of dollars to any tornado disaster.
FaninAma
8/22/2006, 10:54 AM
Some people might think we've moved on to the war in Iraq with this statement.
And NO existed for as long as nearly any other city in the US while still being 20 feet below sea level, surrounded by the Mississipi River and in hurricane teritorry and this never happened before. It's easy to criticize after this disaster occurred but it managed to survive decently enough for a very long time up until a year ago. Who's to say it wouldn't be okay for another 200+ years?
Yes, but once the disaster occured the destruction, because of the city's design, was much more massive than with other coastal cities. And one needs to consider that Katrina, when it hit NO, was only a category 3. Look at te state of Missisissipi for a comparison. I think they have recovered much more easily from Katrina than NO has because the flooding was less.
Just because the city was lucky before and escaped a direct hit for such a long preiod doesn't mean we should rebuild it and hope for the same stretch of good luck.
Plus, because of the design of the city and the fact that nature has been altered with the altering of the route and flow of the Missisissippi by the Army Corps of Engineers with the resuting damage to the delta at the mouth of the Missisissppi which served as the main source of protection for NO to high seas, the risk of flooding grows with each passing year.
AND if you believe that the Gulf is in an "up" cycle in regards to number and strength of hurricanes I don't think we can afford to bury our heads in the sand and count on blind luck to save the city.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 10:59 AM
Your missing the whole point of the thread. If NO were just like any other coastal city with the same inherrent risks from Hurricanes then I could see the sense of rebuilding it. But the location and design, as well as changing geographic and topographic factors, makes NO particulary at risk for having the same thing happen with the next hurricane.
Having a city built 20 feet below sea level surrounded by the Mississippi river, Lake Ponchatraine and the Gulf of Mexico is insane! The levy system is being rebuilt to withstand the same force as before because it would take a complete reconstruction of the system and probably many, many more billions to make NO less susceptible to flooding than it was or will be after the levy system is rebuilt.
It's stupidity and short sightedness on a massive scale but who gives a flip....it's just taxpayers' money.
New Orleans, as we know it today, has been around since before the United Sates were even the United States. Those levees were not always there. Hurricanes are not some brand new phenomenon. Yet somehow, the city has seemed to survive this long.
Also, you may want to get your facts straight. More than half of the city is ABOVE sea level. And the majority of the city that is below sea level is between 1 foot and 10 feet below sea level. There are very few areas that are more than 10 feet below sea level (unlike your assertion that the whole city is 20 feet below). In fact, New Orleans is not as unique as you would believe. There are numerous cities around the world, and in the United States, that lie below sea level. Should we let them be washed away too?
I agree with you that the levee protection is sub par & it needs to be improved beyond its current capabilities, but to suggest that one of the largest and most important port cities in the nation be wiped from the map is pretty arrogant.
C&CDean
8/22/2006, 11:04 AM
Does anybody really even care about New Orleans anymore? Well other than all the $$ they're sucking? Hell, most of the population of pre-Katrina NO are still thieving from all the kind folks who took them in.
Sorry, but I say "**** NO." Let the looters/druggies/slumsters/hookers and all the other assorted riff-raff have it. I just don't get what's worth rebuilding. It was a filthy pit before Katrina, and it's a filthy pit now, and it'll be a filthy pit after it's rebuilt. Meh.
Why haven't you people in the NO area done what we did?
Exactly. The analogy meathead makes doesn't make sense b/c it HAS happened in Oklahoma, a number of times. Do the Okies ever wait on handouts and bring in foreigners to build our homes for us? No. They get out there and bust their butts.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:08 AM
Why haven't you people in the NO area done what we did?
I do understand that there is a much larger mess to be cleaned up down there but you gotta start somewhere and the fine people of New Orleans don't seem to grasp that idea other than the handouts must start soon and end no time soon.
I no longer live in New Orleans, but my entire family does. Since Katrina hit, my sister & brother in law have completely rebuilt their house. My parents have replaced their roof, all their siding, and carpet. My grandmother has rebuilt the front of her house where an oak tree fell through it. My Aunt has rebuilt her entire house. My best friend has purchased a new house in a different part of the city.
What is so unique about these people? They did not take a SINGLE DOLLAR directly from the government. All of the reconstruction came from their insurance and their own savings. My parents were $20,000 short on what the reconstruction cost them and what the insurance paid. They could have gotten that from FEMA or some other government handout agency, but instead, they went into their own savings.
Your anger seems to be rooted in those who were too stupid to realize that they needed insurance and now they want Uncle Sam to bail them out. Personally, I say let them rot. They made their beds, now let them lay in the mold they created for themselves. But to punish the entire city for the hundreds of voices you have heard looking for a handout, when there are tens of thousands of voices you have never heard who never asked for a dollar...that, my friend, is textbook shortsightedness.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:13 AM
Exactly. The analogy meathead makes doesn't make sense b/c it HAS happened in Oklahoma, a number of times. Do the Okies ever wait on handouts and bring in foreigners to build our homes for us? No. They get out there and bust their butts.
Funny...every time I see a tornado sweep through a trailer park in OK, all I see on the national news is someone standing in the rubble crying that they lost everything and they need the feds to coem in and help them. Are you saying that is not the case for every single person??? :rolleyes:
All you see is what you see on the news. Go take a trip down to New Orleans. Go take a ride through the areas like Metairie, Gretna, and even Lakeview. Those areas are full of people who have never asked for or wanted a handout. All of a sudden, you may realize that you are hearing from a vocal minority that is not representative of the entire city.
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 11:15 AM
I'd have to care first to be angry.
Good on your family for fixing their stuff and choosing to continue to live in that area.
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 11:16 AM
Funny...every time I see a tornado sweep through a trailer park in OK, all I see on the national news is someone standing in the rubble crying that they lost everything and they need the feds to coem in and help them. Are you saying that is not the case for every single person??? :rolleyes:
All you see is what you see on the news. Go take a trip down to New Orleans. Go take a ride through the areas like Metairie, Gretna, and even Lakeview. Those areas are full of people who have never asked for or wanted a handout. All of a sudden, you may realize that you are hearing from a vocal minority that is not representative of the entire city.
liar. you have not once ever seen someone crying for the help of the Feds after a tornado hit anywhere in Oklahoma.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:19 AM
Does anybody really even care about New Orleans anymore? Well other than all the $$ they're sucking? Hell, most of the population of pre-Katrina NO are still thieving from all the kind folks who took them in.
If no one cared about New Orleans, why would they be rebuilding it now? As for those who are "thieving" from the folks who took them in, perhaps it it time to tell them to get the F out. New Orleans does not want freeloaders any more than you do, but that won't stop the freeloaders from freeloading. The best way to stop a freeloader is to stop empowering him or her with handouts. I was never in support of them, and I am still opposed to them.
Sorry, but I say "**** NO." Let the looters/druggies/slumsters/hookers and all the other assorted riff-raff have it. I just don't get what's worth rebuilding. It was a filthy pit before Katrina, and it's a filthy pit now, and it'll be a filthy pit after it's rebuilt. Meh.
It's funny that every person I have ever spoken to who has been to New Orleans has told me how much fun they had there, but when you ask them about rebuilding it, they say "let it rot!" As for the riff-raff, I don't know what the solution is, apart from a "shoot first..." approach.
C&CDean
8/22/2006, 11:19 AM
liar. you have not once ever seen someone crying for the help of the Feds after a tornado hit anywhere in Oklahoma.
Yeah, cause in all honesty, the media searches out the most ignorant sounding, toothless hillbilly they can find to put on TV. Hell, they've never even heard of FEMA. Unless it's their momma's name or something.
Yeah, cause in all honesty, the media searches out the most ignorant sounding, toothless hillbilly they can find to put on TV. Hell, they've never even heard of FEMA. Unless it's their momma's name or something.
hehe, Auntie Fema.
If no one cared about New Orleans, why would they be rebuilding it now? As for those who are "thieving" from the folks who took them in, perhaps it it time to tell them to get the F out. New Orleans does not want freeloaders any more than you do, but that won't stop the freeloaders from freeloading. The best way to stop a freeloader is to stop empowering him or her with handouts. I was never in support of them, and I am still opposed to them.
Houston is REALLY enjoying the NO freeloaders.
All you see is what you see on the news. Go take a trip down to New Orleans. Go take a ride through the areas like Metairie, Gretna, and even Lakeview. Those areas are full of people who have never asked for or wanted a handout. All of a sudden, you may realize that you are hearing from a vocal minority that is not representative of the entire city.
It would be great for NO if they could rebuild it to become a better city than what it was (which wouldn't take much). As we all know, most of the trash that got bussed all over the USA are going to stay right there and not come back to NO. This might be the best thing to happen to NO (in a strange way).
The original point is still made that the city cannot support a professional sports franchise.
C&CDean
8/22/2006, 11:23 AM
If no one cared about New Orleans, why would they be rebuilding it now? As for those who are "thieving" from the folks who took them in, perhaps it it time to tell them to get the F out. New Orleans does not want freeloaders any more than you do, but that won't stop the freeloaders from freeloading. The best way to stop a freeloader is to stop empowering him or her with handouts. I was never in support of them, and I am still opposed to them.
It's funny that every person I have ever spoken to who has been to New Orleans has told me how much fun they had there, but when you ask them about rebuilding it, they say "let it rot!" As for the riff-raff, I don't know what the solution is, apart from a "shoot first..." approach.
Fun? Sure, I've had fun in NO. Despite the filth.
And I don't have to worry about the thieving folks cause I didn't take none of them in. They stole enough from me when I was down there.
It's all groovy that you love your hometown and all. But the reality is that it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to rebuild something that needed to be razed anyhow. And that's gonna get hit again. Not if, but when. I don't get it.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:24 AM
liar. you have not once ever seen someone crying for the help of the Feds after a tornado hit anywhere in Oklahoma.
Perhaps you are the one who sees only what he wants to see. It happens at every disaster. Hurricane, tornado, flood, earthquake...the TV will show someone who has suffered greatly. They will portray them as losing everything. Then they will vilify the local/state/federal government for not doing enough to help. The next time tragedy sweeps through your backyard, don;t look at the local news. Take a look at the national news & see what they are saying. Call me a liar when Brian Williams or Katie Couric or Geraldo Riverra are standing amidst the destruction with some poor soul begging the president to come help them.
Does that make it true? Does that make it false?
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 11:27 AM
Perhaps you are the one who sees only what he wants to see. It happens at every disaster. Hurricane, tornado, flood, earthquake...the TV will show someone who has suffered greatly. They will portray them as losing everything. Then they will vilify the local/state/federal government for not doing enough to help. The next time tragedy sweeps through your backyard, don;t look at the local news. Take a look at the national news & see what they are saying. Call me a liar when Brian Williams or Katie Couric or Geraldo Riverra are standing amidst the destruction with some poor soul begging the president to come help them.
Does that make it true? Does that make it false?
When were those newspeople in OK after a tornado?
Which President of the United States did the good people of Oklahoma vilify after a tornado?
Thanks for playing. Corndog.;)
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:33 AM
It would be great for NO if they could rebuild it to become a better city than what it was (which wouldn't take much). As we all know, most of the trash that got bussed all over the USA are going to stay right there and not come back to NO. This might be the best thing to happen to NO (in a strange way).
The original point is still made that the city cannot support a professional sports franchise.
As un-PC as this may be...you are absolutely right. Katrina was a form of "ethnic cleansing" for the city. New Orleans does not want them back any more than the cities they are in now want them there. I am being selfish here, but I hope they stay wherever they are & never return.
As for the sports franchise, season ticket sales for the Saints are up & in line with the league average. There is interest in the Saints. There is a market for the Saints. But, you are somewhat correct. The city cannot support TWO pro teams. So take the Hornets & leave the Saints. We will determine when we are too feeble to keep them.
TUSooner
8/22/2006, 11:35 AM
Your missing the whole point of the thread. If NO were just like any other coastal city with the same inherrent risks from Hurricanes then I could see the sense of rebuilding it. But the location and design, as well as changing geographic and topographic factors, makes NO particulary at risk for having the same thing happen with the next hurricane.
Having a city built 20 feet below sea level surrounded by the Mississippi river, Lake Ponchatraine and the Gulf of Mexico is insane! The levy system is being rebuilt to withstand the same force as before because it would take a complete reconstruction of the system and probably many, many more billions to make NO less susceptible to flooding than it was or will be after the levy system is rebuilt.
It's stupidity and short sightedness on a massive scale but who gives a flip....it's just taxpayers' money.
I do NOT like New Orleans and I am eager to live somewhere else. And yes, New Orleans has major problems, starting with a bunch of lazy fools amongst the citizenry. But New Orleans is and always has been a valuable port and city for this Nation, and it's always been exactly where it is right now. We have one disaster and all of a sudden the cynical, know-it-all La-Z-Boy jockeys think the city needs to be written off. THAT is "stupidity and short sightedness."
And worse? You made me agree with a LSU fan. buhhhhh!!!!!111
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:37 AM
When were those newspeople in OK after a tornado?
Which President of the United States did the good people of Oklahoma vilify after a tornado?
Thanks for playing. Corndog.;)
You are joking, right?
While there has been admittedly more media attention paid to the whole Katrina debacle, OK is not immune to press when a natural disaster strikes & like C&C said, the media always picks the cream of the crop to put on TV.
So what do I win?
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 11:39 AM
I'm serious.
Please tell me what community was destroyed and which newsperson was on scene when an Okie was vilifying the POTUS or begging for Federal help.
You can't because it never happened.
royalfan5
8/22/2006, 11:39 AM
Also, the Port of New Orleans is critical to the United States economy. That alone is a good reason for the City to Exist.
.....and it's always been exactly where it is right now. We have one disaster and all of a sudden the cynical, know-it-all La-Z-Boy jockeys think the city needs to be written off. THAT is "stupidity and short sightedness."
See, that's what I meant.......'cept TU has a lawyer mouth and made it sound better.
:D
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:42 AM
I'm serious.
Please tell me what community was destroyed and which newsperson was on scene when an Okie was vilifying the POTUS or begging for Federal help.
You can't because it never happened.
Do I know the exact name & location of the trailer park or low rent housing complex? No. Have I seen it happen on the news before? Absolutely. Do I have time to research my claim & get back to you with the data you seek? Not right now.
I suppose you will just have to take my word on this one! :cool:
Penguin
8/22/2006, 11:44 AM
The Battle of New Orleans
in twenty oh five, katrina let er rip
taking dead aim at the coast of miss-i-sip
causing death and devastation like no one had ever seen
and anger and frustration in the town of new orleans
and they blamed george bush
and they blamed the head of fema
they told everybody that would listen to em shout
they blamed the mayor
and they blamed governor blanco
cos nobody came to get their sorry asses out
when the levees didnt hold the water started coming up
and all at once they realized that they were out of luck
so they all took refuge in the superdome
it didnt take em long to make themselves right at home
well they stole t.v.s and they stole fine jewelry
everybody got a new pair of nike tennis shoes
stole guns, dvds, fur coats, cold beer
they stole some stuff that they couldnt even use
with the water and the sewer now deeper than their thighs
they started shooting helicopters bringing them supplies
then when the army had the nerve to fire back
the reverend jesse jackson said it was cos that they were black
and they crapped in the streets
they raped young women
they committed every kind of unthinkable sin
they did some things that you cant even mention
with the only intention to get on cnn
now the water went down and they all went home
now they sit around and they bitch and they moan
cos everything is worse than you could ever expect
and they wonder who the hell is gonna send them their next check
now they got no job
they got no money
but they got away cos they never got caught
they aint no better than they was fore the storm
and dont you know that everythings the governments fault
they stole t.v.s and they stole fine jewelry
everybody got a new pair of nike tennis shoes
stole guns, dvds, fur coats, cold beer
they stole some stuff they couldnt even use
they blamed george bush
and they blamed the head of fema
they told everybody that would listen to em shout
they blamed the mayor
and they blamed governor blanco
cos nobody came to get their sorry asses out
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 11:44 AM
should be easy. You said that every time a tornado hits in OK this happens.
You pulled that out of your *** and got called on it.
Go somewhere else and try to make fun of another state's population.
FaninAma
8/22/2006, 11:45 AM
More than half of the city is ABOVE sea level. And the majority of the city that is below sea level is between 1 foot and 10 feet below sea level.
Well, that certainly makes me feel better. I think the lasting image from the NO disaster is the levy system failing and water pouring into the surrounding lower dry neighborhoods. Is that levy system going to be changed? Is Lake Ponchatrain going to be moved or drained? And like I said, the problem is only going to get worse because of the environmental dynamics of the Lousianna Delta/Mississippi River system. Is the Federal government going to pour billions and billions of more dollars into reversing that trend?
The city is being rebuilt for one reason and one reason only.....political correctness. It has received more attention than all of the other US cities hit by hurricanes combined in the last 30 years for one reason.....political correctness.
None of our national leaders have the fortitude to step forward and say that NO is a disaster waiting to happen and it is a massive misuse of taxpayer money to rebuild the city.
And I for one, don't really give a lot of credit to people who want to join the charade by rebuilding in NO and pretending the same thing won't happen again eventually.
As un-PC as this may be...you are absolutely right. Katrina was a form of "ethnic cleansing" for the city. New Orleans does not want them back any more than the cities they are in now want them there. I am being selfish here, but I hope they stay wherever they are & never return.
Now THAT was abrasive!!! ;)
I still think it sucks that all the problem citizens got shipped off to other parts of the country... but oh well.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:53 AM
Now THAT was abrasive!!! ;)
I still think it sucks that all the problem citizens got shipped off to other parts of the country... but oh well.
But is the problem worse when they are scattered across the 50 states or when they are all compacted into a small area? Pull the problem up by its roots & suddenlly it does not seem like as big of a problem anymore.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 11:59 AM
should be easy. You said that every time a tornado hits in OK this happens.
You pulled that out of your *** and got called on it.
Go somewhere else and try to make fun of another state's population.
I have to run to a meeting, so I could not search long, but this one came up on the first search...
Recovering from such a powerful storm is a difficult challenge. Drive through Twin Oaks and you'll see debris piles and homes still damaged.
One of the houses belongs to Jerry Lawrence. "We lost three houses, a travel trailer, seven cars, a boat. About everything we had out here." Like many residents, Lawrence is frustrated with FEMA. He says there are promises of help, but he hasn't seen signs of it. "When somebody comes here and you keep going to their meetings and their meetings and we're lining up to do this and do that and they never do anything. Why do they treat these people like that."
Many people believe the process is cumbersome, with storm victims mired in paperwork. Some estimate it could be another year before debris is cleared and scenic US Highway 412 becomes scenic again.
I would think that someone who owns three houses, a travel trailer, seven cars, and a boat would have no reason to depend on FEMA for anything. Or is he possibly just standing in line looking for a handout?
Couldn't be...that never happens in OK. People there take care of each other & have no use for the likes of FEMA.
I'll be back to continue this later today.
TUSooner
8/22/2006, 11:59 AM
Well, that certainly makes me feel better. I think the lasting image from the NO disaster is the levy system failing and water pouring into the surrounding lower dry neighborhoods. Is that levy system going to be changed? Is Lake Ponchatrain going to be moved or drained? And like I said, the problem is only going to get worse because of the environmental dynamics of the Lousianna Delta/Mississippi River system. Is the Federal government going to pour billions and billions of more dollars into reversing that trend?
The city is being rebuilt for one reason and one reason only.....political correctness. It has received more attention than all of the other US cities hit by hurricanes combined in the last 30 years for one reason.....political correctness....
If by "political correctness" you mean "because hundreds of thousands of people have called the place their home for generations and want to continue living there," then I agree. Otherwise, you are waaaay too cynical. And when a cynic like me says that to you, it means you are gone 'round the bend. Be skeptical about how money is being spent, sure, but don't get carried away by simple-minded "solution" that would be the end of a city that you really don't know much about (except maybe what you hear from the Mainstream Media??)
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 12:03 PM
I have to run to a meeting, so I could not search long, but this one came up on the first search...
I would think that someone who owns three houses, a travel trailer, seven cars, and a boat would have no reason to depend on FEMA for anything. Or is he possibly just standing in line looking for a handout?
Couldn't be...that never happens in OK. People there take care of each other & have no use for the likes of FEMA.
I'll be back to continue this later today.
I'm looking for the resident to say that they are waiting on FEMA. You will know when they do because it will be inside the quotation marks. What you just showed me was where the reporter said that they were waiting on FEMA. I also didn't see the President vilified in there.
by the way, I'm just splitting hairs here as I don't care about New Orleans, except for the places that TUSooner likes to go to and where he lives.
FaninAma
8/22/2006, 12:32 PM
If by "political correctness" you mean "because hundreds of thousands of people have called the place their home for generations and want to continue living there," then I agree. Otherwise, you are waaaay too cynical. And when a cynic like me says that to you, it means you are gone 'round the bend. Be skeptical about how money is being spent, sure, but don't get carried away by simple-minded "solution" that would be the end of a city that you really know much about (except maybe what you hear from the Mainstream Media??)
No, by political correctness I am referring to Ray Naggin getting on the TV and calling NO a "chocolate city" and the Democrats getting on the TV and demagogging Bush's and FEMA's response by implying the failure were based on race. And I am referring to the fact that any reasonable person knows that we'll be doing this all over in the future but because our so called national leaders have been turned into spineless jelly fish by the politically correct, racially charged demagogging up to this point, none of them will stand up for the American taxpayers.
Like I said, it's a perfect example of the emperor being buck naked but no one with the backbone to say so.
I think it's the epitomy of human stupidity and malfeasance to repeat decisions that are guaranteed to end up significantly costing future generations in terms of money and resources.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 12:57 PM
I'm looking for the resident to say that they are waiting on FEMA. You will know when they do because it will be inside the quotation marks. What you just showed me was where the reporter said that they were waiting on FEMA. I also didn't see the President vilified in there.
What does it matter...if I find video of someone in an OU hat with an OSU shirt & an OKC Hornets jacket on saying that FEMA owes them a trailer, you will just say they must be from Kansas.
1stTimeCaller
8/22/2006, 01:00 PM
What does it matter...if I find video of someone in an OU hat with an OSU shirt & an OKC Hornets jacket on saying that FEMA owes them a trailer, you will just say they must be from Kansas.
Yep. I really don't care and was just yanking your chain. But seriously, you p*ssed me off when you started in with the weak trailer park smack. It's old, tired and worn out.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 01:06 PM
No, by political correctness I am referring to Ray Naggin getting on the TV and calling NO a "chocolate city" and the Democrats getting on the TV and demagogging Bush's and FEMA's response by implying the failure were based on race. And I am referring to the fact that any reasonable person knows that we'll be doing this all over in the future but because our so called national leaders have been turned into spineless jelly fish by the politically correct, racially charged demagogging up to this point, none of them will stand up for the American taxpayers.
Like I said, it's a perfect example of the emperor being buck naked but no one with the backbone to say so.
I think it's the epitomy of human stupidity and malfeasance to repeat decisions that are guaranteed to end up significantly costing future generations in terms of money and resources.
How about this then. We leave the city to ruin. Let New Orleans rot & fester. We see if the "chocolate city" has the internal fortitude to pull itself up by the bootstraps without sucking on the government teet. However, we let the surrounding and adjacent areas rebuild and go about life as usual.
The city of New Orleans is a black city. As such, the politicians they elect are black politicians. As such, they are mostly part of a black political party. And as such, they are opposed to anything the opposite party does & blames anything & everything on race.
By contrast, the surrounding and adjacent areas of the city are white. As such, the politicians they elect are white politicians. As such, they are part of both political parties. And as such, they are opposed to anything the party in power in New Orleans does & blames anything & everything on their race baiting.
Ever think that the surrounding areas are rebuilding on their own? That they are doing what they need to do to get back to square one & maybe even do a little extra to be better prepared for the next storm? Did it dawn on you that those people initially fled the city because of the climate that was present & that they now see an opportunity to turn the place around?
I hate government waste more than anyone, and I see a lot of it going on in my hometown, but the solution is not to write it off in its entirety.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 01:10 PM
Yep. I really don't care and was just yanking your chain. But seriously, you p*ssed me off when you started in with the weak trailer park smack. It's old, tired and worn out.
And images of 90 year old poor black women on ventilators standing in ankle deep mud in the house that they chose not to keep insured (all for the perfect media photo op...and the occasional Spike Lee documentary) isn't old, tired, and worn out??
You are preaching to the choir when it comes to this stuff brotha.
For all I know, the entire state of OK is nothing but trailer parks & F'n hillbillies. For all you know, New Orleans is blacker than pitch & poorer than dirt. but we both know that is not the truth.
FaninAma
8/22/2006, 01:13 PM
How about this then. We leave the city to ruin. Let New Orleans rot & fester. We see if the "chocolate city" has the internal fortitude to pull itself up by the bootstraps without sucking on the government teet. However, we let the surrounding and adjacent areas rebuild and go about life as usual.
The city of New Orleans is a black city. As such, the politicians they elect are black politicians. As such, they are mostly part of a black political party. And as such, they are opposed to anything the opposite party does & blames anything & everything on race.
By contrast, the surrounding and adjacent areas of the city are white. As such, the politicians they elect are white politicians. As such, they are part of both political parties. And as such, they are opposed to anything the party in power in New Orleans does & blames anything & everything on their race baiting.
Ever think that the surrounding areas are rebuilding on their own? That they are doing what they need to do to get back to square one & maybe even do a little extra to be better prepared for the next storm? Did it dawn on you that those people initially fled the city because of the climate that was present & that they now see an opportunity to turn the place around?
I hate government waste more than anyone, and I see a lot of it going on in my hometown, but the solution is not to write it off in its entirety.
No, the solution is to put in some rules that make sense. I would start off by making it impossible to get federal funds unless you were rebuilding in a an area that had zoning requirements similiar to other coastal cities, especially in regards to flooding. I would not rebuid NO in it's same loacation with the same inherrent faults that made it such a disaster in the first place.
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 01:18 PM
No, the solution is to put in some rules that make sense. I would start off by making it impossible to get federal funds unless you were rebuilding in a an area that had zoning requirements similiar to other coastal cities, especially in regards to flooding. I would not rebuid NO in it's same loacation with the same inherrent faults that made it such a disaster in the first place.
You mean like raising the foundation of houses in low lying areas to a minimum of sea level in order to get a building permit? Done! That law passed & was being enforced by the Orleans building inspector.
Oh wait...that is racist because people cannot afford to build their foundations up to sea level you cracka azz cracka! Better grandfather these folks in!
Seriously, there is not a thing you have said that has not been said by the level headed citizens of the city. The problem is that the city is being run by Willy Wonka and the other Oompa Loompas...and they just re-elected him for another 4 years!!
RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
8/22/2006, 02:48 PM
The Battle of New Orleans
in twenty oh five, katrina let er rip
taking dead aim at the coast of miss-i-sip
causing death and devastation like no one had ever seen
and anger and frustration in the town of new orleans
and they blamed george bush
and they blamed the head of fema
they told everybody that would listen to em shout
they blamed the mayor
and they blamed governor blanco
cos nobody came to get their sorry asses out
when the levees didnt hold the water started coming up
and all at once they realized that they were out of luck
so they all took refuge in the superdome
it didnt take em long to make themselves right at home
well they stole t.v.s and they stole fine jewelry
everybody got a new pair of nike tennis shoes
stole guns, dvds, fur coats, cold beer
they stole some stuff that they couldnt even use
with the water and the sewer now deeper than their thighs
they started shooting helicopters bringing them supplies
then when the army had the nerve to fire back
the reverend jesse jackson said it was cos that they were black
and they crapped in the streets
they raped young women
they committed every kind of unthinkable sin
they did some things that you cant even mention
with the only intention to get on cnn
now the water went down and they all went home
now they sit around and they bitch and they moan
cos everything is worse than you could ever expect
and they wonder who the hell is gonna send them their next check
now they got no job
they got no money
but they got away cos they never got caught
they aint no better than they was fore the storm
and dont you know that everythings the governments fault
they stole t.v.s and they stole fine jewelry
everybody got a new pair of nike tennis shoes
stole guns, dvds, fur coats, cold beer
they stole some stuff they couldnt even use
they blamed george bush
and they blamed the head of fema
they told everybody that would listen to em shout
they blamed the mayor
and they blamed governor blanco
cos nobody came to get their sorry asses outBRAVO. I haven't seen/heard this before. Did you write it?
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 03:04 PM
BRAVO. I haven't seen/heard this before. Did you write it?
That has been flaoting around since shortly after Katrina hit. I have it as an MP3 at home. If I remember, I will upload it tonight when I get home so you can hear it.
TUSooner
8/22/2006, 03:05 PM
No, by political correctness I am referring to Ray Naggin getting on the TV and calling NO a "chocolate city" and the Democrats getting on the TV and demagogging Bush's and FEMA's response by implying the failure were based on race. And I am referring to the fact that any reasonable person knows that we'll be doing this all over in the future but because our so called national leaders have been turned into spineless jelly fish by the politically correct, racially charged demagogging up to this point, none of them will stand up for the American taxpayers...
Basing your opinion on New Orleans on that overblown horse crap is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you don't know anything about the place or what's going on. Get your head out of talk radio and get on down here and see something fopr yourself. It ain't all nice, but it's sure not THAT kinda sh!t.
And by the way, Nagin has gone overboard in THANKING Bush for his support for the city. awww forget it. :rolleyes:
For all I know, the entire state of OK is nothing but trailer parks & F'n hillbillies. For all you know, New Orleans is blacker than pitch & poorer than dirt. but we both know that is not the truth.
Actually, you're not far off... ;)
But is the problem worse when they are scattered across the 50 states or when they are all compacted into a small area?
I prefer the latter, if the latter is New Orleans. :D
BudSooner
8/22/2006, 03:28 PM
You mean like raising the foundation of houses in low lying areas to a minimum of sea level in order to get a building permit? Done! That law passed & was being enforced by the Orleans building inspector.
Oh wait...that is racist because people cannot afford to build their foundations up to sea level you cracka azz cracka! Better grandfather these folks in!
Seriously, there is not a thing you have said that has not been said by the level headed citizens of the city. The problem is that the city is being run by Willy Wonka and the other Oompa Loompas...and they just re-elected him for another 4 years!!
Talk about racist. http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4237/omgblinky3sm.gif
LSUMeathead
8/22/2006, 03:32 PM
Talk about racist. http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4237/omgblinky3sm.gif
How is a refrence to Willy Wonka (Ray Nagin) and the Oompa Loompas (every other politician in the city) racist?
http://xa6.xanga.com/16a812f3d275831446026/b21911601.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/41/89905995_76774cd80f_m.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/CALLIEC504/willy_nagin.jpg
And "cracka azz cracka"? Really? You may want to take a look back through this thread & see if you see something....ANYTHING a tad more racist than that. It ain't hard.
Scott D
8/22/2006, 03:48 PM
It's threads like this that make me want to become a jihadist.
Tear Down This Wall
8/22/2006, 04:06 PM
Does anybody really even care about New Orleans anymore? Well other than all the $$ they're sucking? Hell, most of the population of pre-Katrina NO are still thieving from all the kind folks who took them in.
Sorry, but I say "**** NO." Let the looters/druggies/slumsters/hookers and all the other assorted riff-raff have it. I just don't get what's worth rebuilding. It was a filthy pit before Katrina, and it's a filthy pit now, and it'll be a filthy pit after it's rebuilt. Meh.
I read down to this point of the thread, agreed, and stopped. The NO criminals have caused havoc in several Texas cities and their school districts. If you really think NO is so great, pack up your bags, get the hell out of Texas, and go help rebuild your crappy city. Oh, nevermind...you're still ranting about having to get a job and losing your rent subsidies here. Pathetic.
My dad's family survived the dadgum Great Depression in Shamrock, Oklahoma. Surely the NO people can do something besides sit, bitch, and expect the government money to just flow in on them like milk and honey.
FaninAma
8/22/2006, 04:37 PM
Basing your opinion on New Orleans on that overblown horse crap is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you don't know anything about the place or what's going on. Get your head out of talk radio and get on down here and see something fopr yourself. It ain't all nice, but it's sure not THAT kinda sh!t.
And by the way, Nagin has gone overboard in THANKING Bush for his support for the city. awww forget it. :rolleyes:
If you can stop your little rant long enough I'd like to ask you a question.
What have the politicians in Lousianna done to make sure the same damn thing doesn't happen again with the next direct hit by a category 3 or stronger hurricane? Tell me what's going on that the rest of the world isn't seeing?
And as far as Nagin thanking Bush......why wouldn't he? He's totally caved and opened the federal coffers to pacify his critics. I guess it's working to an extent.
TUSooner
8/23/2006, 06:24 AM
OK - no rant. Nobody can deny that New Orleans has some MAJOR problems; it had them before the storm. But here's my point, I hope made respectfully for a change.
People see "news" stories about the worst cases of laziness, corruption, ingratitude and - the worst, IMHO - dependency combined with indignation. I doesn't help that some of the people featured in these stories are black and not well-educated, or even politicians. Frankly, they are not sypathetiv to the folks in Topeka, or OKC, etc. So, seeing these disgusting things, people naturally tend to say, "F that. I don't want my tax dollars going down that drain."
But these observers have an incomplete view that is the result of a notoriously shallow and sensantionalist news media and "opinion journalism" like radio talk.
In fact, there are many thousands of people in this area, black and white, who are busting their chops trying to rebuild, without much help from either insurance companies or the gubment - even though both have arguably bound themselves to help by contract or other promise in many instances. These people are just as disgusted with the loafers as the rest of the country is, if not more. They know the city's real problems and how hard it will be to fix them. They are fighting the good fight, and it's an uphill battle. They are not helped by the imperfectly informed who only want a simple, and cynical solution like "throw New Orleans overboard."
THAT's what I was trying to say, and I owed the board a better explanation than in my other posts. The End.
Okla-homey
8/23/2006, 06:48 AM
OK - no rant. Nobody can deny that New Orleans has some MAJOR problems; it had them before the storm. But here's my point, I hope made respectfully for a change.
People see "news" stories about the worst cases of laziness, corruption, ingratitude and - the worst, IMHO - dependency combined with indignation. I doesn't help that some of the people featured in these stories are black and not well-educated, or even politicians. Frankly, they are not sypathetiv to the folks in Topeka, or OKC, etc. So, seeing these disgusting things, people naturally tend to say, "F that. I don't want my tax dollars going down that drain."
But these observers have an incomplete view that is the result of a notoriously shallow and sensantionalist news media and "opinion journalism" like radio talk.
In fact, there are many thousands of people in this area, black and white, who are busting their chops trying to rebuild, without much help from either insurance companies or the gubment - even though both have arguably bound themselves to help by contract or other promise in many instances. These people are just as disgusted with the loafers as the rest of the country is, if not more. They know the city's real problems and how hard it will be to fix them. They are fighting the good fight, and it's an uphill battle. They are not helped by the imperfectly informed who only want a simple, and cynical solution like "throw New Orleans overboard."
THAT's what I was trying to say, and I owed the board a better explanation than in my other posts. The End.
Good luck TU. Seriously.
One observation. I've been watching Spike Lee's series now airing on HBO. Sure, there's a lot of frustration and indignance over the situation being expressed by the folks in NOLA both black and white. Much of it, spot on, however...
Probably merely restating the obvious, but my thought is that much of the problem is that the city, which appears to have suffered a corrupt and rotten infrastructure which was barely functional before the storm, is predictably incapable of recovery without external help in the form of dollars and expertise.
I think most folks around the country would be willing to help if there was some constitutionally acceptable way for the city to enter a form of trust relationship with a external entity (public or private) which could oversee and direct the efforts and remain above the influence of any politician in Louisiana. IOW, a form of "reconstruction" government administered from outside the state.
Unfortunately, I don't see that happening for a lot of reasons, not least of which is it would be seen as an admission that the local leaders and municipal agencies are incapable of responsible and competent management of the rebuilding efforts. No politician is going to call for it because it would be perceived and heralded as bald-faced racism. As mentioned, it probably couldn't survive constitutional scrutiny either.
The upshot then, to me at least, is NOLA is doomed never to rise again to anything approaching its former state.
TUSooner
8/23/2006, 07:05 AM
Good luck TU. Seriously.
One observation. I've been watching Spike Lee's series now airing on HBO. Sure, there's a lot of frustration and indignance over the situation being expressed by the folks in NOLA both black and white. Much of it, spot on, however...
Probably merely restating the obvious, but my thought is that much of the problem is that the city, which appears to have suffered a corrupt and rotten infrastructure which was barely functional before the storm, is predictably incapable of recovery without external help in the form of dollars and expertise.
I think most folks around the country would be willing to help if there was some constitutionally acceptable way for the city to enter a form of trust relationship with a external entity (public or private) which could oversee and direct the efforts and remain above the influence of any politician in Louisiana. IOW, a form of "reconstruction" government administered from outside the state.
Unfortunately, I don't see that happening for a lot of reasons, not least of which is it would be seen as an admission that the local leaders and municipal agencies are incapable of responsible and competent management of the rebuilding efforts. No politician is going to call for it because it would be perceived and heralded as bald-faced racism. As mentioned, it probably couldn't survive constitutional scrutiny either.
The upshot then, to me at least, is NOLA is doomed never to rise again to anything approaching its former state.
You may well be right about the future. There is doubt amongst many locals, who, as I said, are disgusted in about the same way.
Which is why I plan to find whatever good I can while I'm here, and then GTFO in due course.
And, O yeah, I have not seen Spike's latest, but I'd tend not to consider every frame as a 100% accurate portrayal of how things really are.;)
Okla-homey
8/23/2006, 07:52 AM
You may well be right about the future. There is doubt amongst many locals, who, as I said, are disgusted in about the same way.
Which is why I plan to find whatever good I can while I'm here, and then GTFO in due course.
And, O yeah, I have not seen Spike's latest, but I'd tend not to consider every frame as a 100% accurate portrayal of how things really are.;)
I concede there was a lot of "its all whitey's fault," but Spike did delve into some very troubling aspects of NOLA's pre-hurricane failed infrastructure which was pretty stunning if true.
Question: Spike contends in the piece that the NOLA public schools were so mismanaged pre-Katrina that the FBI actually had offices and agents assigned in the district headquarters in order to try and sort out (and lead to indictments) over the fact the NOLA public schools have not been able to make even a remotely accurate financial accounting in over eight years.
He also contended that the public school administration was unable to identify children enrolled or even make an accurate statement of enrollment figures at any of its schools.
Is this true?:eek:
Sooner_Bob
8/23/2006, 07:56 AM
Many of you know that I spent 2 weeks down there inspecting schools as part of a US Public Health Service response. I can honestly say that all of the people I met while doing my job were more than grateful for all of the help the city was receiving. They all know (better than us) about the not so great government that was/is in place and often shared their frustrations with us because we could be unbiased since we weren't locals.
They were dealt a bad hand and have paid the price for it. Until you've been down there and experienced the "damage" first hand you really won't be able to understand things . . . even the stuff from the news. You see this photo-op or that one, but do you really see the people that are struggling day-to-day on their own to make something better for their family? Specifically the principles, teachers and school leaders (those I met) just wanted to get school back in session so something that resemble normalcy could return. With it being almost a year since I was down there I really hope it did . . . atleast for the kids.
A city that has been through what NOLA has been can't rebuild overnight, or even within a few years. It's gonna take time and tons of patience.
Sooner_Bob
8/23/2006, 07:59 AM
I concede there was a lot of "its all whitey's fault," but Spike did delve into some very troubling aspects of NOLA's pre-hurricane failed infrastructure which was pretty stunning if true.
Question: Spike contends in the piece that the NOLA public schools were so mismanaged pre-Katrina that the FBI actually had offices and agents assigned in the district headquarters in order to try and sort out (and lead to indictments) over the fact the NOLA public schools have not been able to make even a remotely accurate financial accounting in over eight years.
He also contended that the public school administration was unable to identify children enrolled or even make an accurate statement of enrollment figures at any of its schools.
Is this true?:eek:
I heard stuff about the mismanagement of the Orleans Parish schools . . . we were supposed to go in and inspect them too, but couldn't because nobody could tell us if/when they'd open. At the time I left only the private schools were opening in Orleans Parish, but both public and private were opening in Jefferson Parish.
TUSooner
8/23/2006, 08:32 AM
***Probably merely restating the obvious, but my thought is that much of the problem is that the city, which appears to have suffered a corrupt and rotten infrastructure which was barely functional before the storm, is predictably incapable of recovery without external help in the form of dollars and expertise.
I think most folks around the country would be willing to help if there was some constitutionally acceptable way for the city to enter a form of trust relationship with a external entity (public or private) which could oversee and direct the efforts and remain above the influence of any politician in Louisiana. IOW, a form of "reconstruction" government administered from outside the state....
I had to get to work before considering that part of your post. My first thought was that the suggestion was patronizing in an offensive way. But that's not really fair to say, now that I think about it. In fact, you make a totally valid point that there should always be a close ratio between degrees of accountability and authority, or maybe between generosity and control and this case. I think that's true in anything.
I'm just not ready to say that going to the extreme of a New Reconstruction is warranted by the actual circumstances. I hate being an apologist for New Orleans, I mean I really hate it, but I have to suggest that the place isn't really as bad as the caricature. (And even New Orleanians buy into the caricature and help promote it to some degree.) There ARE competent and honest public servants here, they just don't get much press because they are too boring.
And it is a bit patronizing to the responsible people of the area to advance the unwarranted notion that the Feds or the Yankees (for lack of a better word) would do a better job than the natives. That's debatable, and a little arrogant, too. I'm always more impressed with everywhere else than here, but other places have their problems too.
Are we likely to find the next General George Marshall in Chicago or New York, or Washington DC? Should FEMA be the new Czar-entity of New Orleans? Maybe the Department of Homeland Security? Or perhaps the same sort of private-enterprise geniuses who brought us Enron and the big accounting scandals? How about the Sopranos? Or we could revive the Carlos Marcello family.
So what's the point? The place is messed up, yeah, but it's worth saving. Not for cynics like me who are fed up with the place, but definitely for those who have invested their lives, hearts and fortunes here for generations. (And do I really have to mention again that New Orleans is more than the few square blocks of booze, puke, and tittays that lots of tourists see?)
And the place needs outside help. I have slowly concluded the Nation really does owe such help to such a historically valuable part of the geography and culture. How much help and how much outside control? Well that is the real question that you pose in your post. And it's worth some serious, well-informed thought instead of some knee-jerk reactions based on ideology rather than reality.
LSUMeathead
8/23/2006, 08:36 AM
TUSooner is spot on with his posts. The New Orleans you see on the news is not the New Orleans you will see if you are in the city itself. Yes, the areas of destruction still stand with little done, but you rarely see the areas that, iin less than a year, have risen from the ashes like a phoenix. A rebirth for many neighborhoods.
LSUMeathead
8/23/2006, 08:39 AM
Some have expressed their concern over how the residents could re-elect Ray Nagin after his incompetence was on display for the nation to see. Here is the Cliff's Notes version: The mayoral election was held & there were more than a dozen candidates. There were some good candidates, some bad candidates, and some bat scat crazy candidates. In the end, the runoff came down to two democrats. Ray Nagin, and Mitch Landrieu (the current Lt. Governor). Landrieu comes from a family of politicians. his father was the last white mayor of New Orleans, his sister is the US Senator from Louisiana, and he has never known a job outside of politics himself. in the end, it was an election of the lesser of two evils. Do you elect the devil you know, or the devil you don't know. in the end, they chose to keep city hall chocolate.
Now, here is another item that very few realize. The population of the city of New Orleans and Orleans Parish is heavily democratic and predominantly black, but that is not the case in the surrounding parishes & towns. Many of the intelligent individuals in the metro area do not live in the city limits, and they are not able to step up for political office in the city. That being said, TUSooner is again right in that there are some very competent and capable politicians in New Orleans. Not all of them are idiots & crooks, but as we all know politics to be, sometimes you win an election with shock & scare tactics. More often than not, New Orleans has elected its leaders based on irrelevant items such as race, political party, or scare tactics. That is something that has to change, but it cannot change overnight. It has to change over time.
TUSooner
8/23/2006, 08:40 AM
I heard stuff about the mismanagement of the Orleans Parish schools . . . we were supposed to go in and inspect them too, but couldn't because nobody could tell us if/when they'd open. At the time I left only the private schools were opening in Orleans Parish, but both public and private were opening in Jefferson Parish.
I am not very well informed about the public schools. But it seems like the necessity wrought by Katrina has forced New Orleans to open charter schools that compete with each other, which may finally show the way to saving the public school system and may be one of the best results of the whole catastrophe.
LSUMeathead
8/23/2006, 08:54 AM
I will not go into the Spike Lee docu-fiction piece in depth, but I will contest a number of its assertions:
No one planned for the levees to break or blew them up any more than the government destroyed the WTC & Pentagon with missiles on 9/11
Predominantly black & poor areas were not the only areas that were flooded. Poor white neighborhoods, middle class mixed neighborhoods, and high end upper class neighborhoods were also destroyed.
The federal government cannot send in any kind of troops or aid without the state leaders requesting it. The governor of Louisiana (a democrat) was too proud to ask for help from GWB thinking that she had it all under control while the city was under water.
In the months following Katrina, there was NO CRIME in the city. The rumors of rampant roving gangs of rapists & killers were false. Perhaps it was the presence of troops, or perhaps no one was there to commit the crimes, but beyond the looting in the immediate days after the storm, there was a significant fall in crime.
Okla-homey
8/23/2006, 08:58 AM
I had to get to work before considering that part of your post. My first thought was that the suggestion was patronizing in an offensive way. But that's not really fair to say, now that I think about it. In fact, you make a totally valid point that there should always be a close ratio between degrees of accountability and authority, or maybe between generosity and control and this case. I think that's true in anything.
Thanks. I didn't mean to be offensive in any way. I was just opining that my sense is people outside the region don't support pouring money down there anymore unless someone other than local leaders are in charge. Fair? Probably not, but there it is.
Who? Well, the Federal gubmint may not be the ideal choice, but I think it could get it done and such a plan would be more politically palatable to the rest of country who ultimately control the pursestrings.
I was just thinking that if the principle area could be carved out from local and state control and declared some sort of "federal reconstruction authority" with outsiders controlling the checkbook, it would go down easier in Topeka. I imagine commissioners could be appointed for three year terms drawn from industry and government who would be willing to serve. Respected "git-r-done" guys with solid credentials. Set it up, give them a budget and goals and let them go to it. After the goals are met, turn it back over to local control.
Kind of a peaceful "Manhattan Project" more akin to the Tennessee Valley Authority which brought electricity to millions in Appalachia when local governments couldn't get it done than "reconstruction" in the post-war South.
As I said, this is just spit-balling.
TUSooner
8/23/2006, 09:06 AM
Thanks. I didn't mean to be offensive in any way. I was just opining that my sense is people outside the region don't support pouring money down there anymore unless someone other than local leaders are in charge. Fair? Probably not, but there it is.
Who? Well, the Federal gubmint may not be the ideal choice, but I think it could get it done and such a plan would be more politically palatable to the rest of country who ultimately control the pursestrings.
I was just thinking that if the principle area could be carved out from local and state control and declared some sort of "federal reconstruction authority" with outsiders controlling the checkbook, it would go down easier in Topeka. I imagine commissioners could be appointed for three year terms drawn from industry and government who would be willing to serve. Respected "git-r-done" guys with solid credentials. Set it up, give them a budget and goals and let them go to it. After the goals are met, turn it back over to local control.
Kind of a peaceful "Manhattan Project" more akin to the Tennessee Valley Authority which brought electricity to millions in Appalachia when local governments couldn't get it done than "reconstruction" in the post-war South.
As I said, this is just spit-balling.
I just hope I did not imply that your post was not one of the "thoughtful needed" kind. ;) The Nation will see a better place after we finally elect Bobby Jindal governor. :)
LSUMeathead
8/23/2006, 09:08 AM
My mom is a school teacher in the Jefferson Parish public school system. She has been a teacher there for nearly 35 years. There is nothing you can imagine that she has not seen in her tenure there. She has been involved with the Jefferson Parish Public School Board (JPPSB) and she has fought to keep the school system as even keeled as possible. Of course, it has not been an easy battle, but it is better than if she was fighting one parish over & across the Mississippi River.
Orleans Parish public schools are recognized as some of the worst in the nation. There have been numerous scandals & evidence of mis-management. The pay is terrible, the test scores are below average, and there always seems to be something wrong. I am not sure about the FBI presence there, or if that is entirely factual, but it is probably the one thing in Spike Lee's movie that would not surprise me if it was true.
And for the record, I went to a private elementary & middle school and a private Catholic high school (Brother Martin). That is the sad situation of education in New Orleans. You either go to public school & get passed from grade to grade without learning anything. You go to private school & pay $30k+ a year. Or you go to private Catholic school which is more affordable because it is subsidized by the archdiocese.
FaninAma
8/23/2006, 09:08 AM
OK - no rant. Nobody can deny that New Orleans has some MAJOR problems; it had them before the storm. But here's my point, I hope made respectfully for a change.
People see "news" stories about the worst cases of laziness, corruption, ingratitude and - the worst, IMHO - dependency combined with indignation. I doesn't help that some of the people featured in these stories are black and not well-educated, or even politicians. Frankly, they are not sypathetiv to the folks in Topeka, or OKC, etc. So, seeing these disgusting things, people naturally tend to say, "F that. I don't want my tax dollars going down that drain."
But these observers have an incomplete view that is the result of a notoriously shallow and sensantionalist news media and "opinion journalism" like radio talk.
In fact, there are many thousands of people in this area, black and white, who are busting their chops trying to rebuild, without much help from either insurance companies or the gubment - even though both have arguably bound themselves to help by contract or other promise in many instances. These people are just as disgusted with the loafers as the rest of the country is, if not more. They know the city's real problems and how hard it will be to fix them. They are fighting the good fight, and it's an uphill battle. They are not helped by the imperfectly informed who only want a simple, and cynical solution like "throw New Orleans overboard."
THAT's what I was trying to say, and I owed the board a better explanation than in my other posts. The End.
Fair enough and thanks for the response.
To me, the rebuilding of NO isn't about race or the past questionable politics that were practiced in the city but whether or not the city, after spending billions of dollars, is any safer or less susceptible to flooding with hurricanes. If we're going to spend all of this money, let's put a little thought into the process so we are not right back doing this again in 10 or 20 years.
LSUMeathead
8/23/2006, 09:10 AM
I just hope I did not imply that your post was not one of the "thoughtful needed" kind. ;) The Nation will see a better place after we finally elect Bobby Jindal governor. :)
Damn straight! If we had elected him the first time, you would have seen a completely opposite result from the hurricane. Not because he is a republican, but because he is competent (unlike the current gov)!
LSUMeathead
8/23/2006, 09:14 AM
Fair enough and thanks for the response.
To me, the rebuilding of NO isn't about race or the past questionable politics that were practiced in the city but whether or not the city, after spending billions of dollars, is any safer or less susceptible to flooding with hurricanes. If we're going to spend all of this money, let's put a little thought into the process so we are not right back doing this again in 10 or 20 years.
The problem is that time is not something that the city had. They could not wait 5 years for a study to be performed to come up with the best way to secure the city. The levees had to be repaired for the 2006 hurricane season. Unfortunately, that meant restoring them to pre-Katrina category 3 levels.
I also hope that they do something to improve the levees. I hope that 5 year study is being conducted and they come up with a way to protect the city against the strongest category 5 storm. But in the meantime, you cannot leave the levees as they are and you cannot put the city on hold while you research & hold meetings.
TUSooner
8/23/2006, 09:27 AM
***
To me, the rebuilding of NO [is about ] whether or not the city, after spending billions of dollars, is any safer or less susceptible to flooding with hurricanes. If we're going to spend all of this money, let's put a little thought into the process so we are not right back doing this again in 10 or 20 years.
I think if there's one thing everybody down here agrees on, it's THAT ! :)
FaninAma
8/23/2006, 09:42 AM
I think if there's one thing everybody down here agrees on, it's THAT ! :)
I know there are good, reasonable people in NO that don't want to ever have to do this again and want to do whatever is necessary tomake the city safer and better. My concern is that because of politics and the demagogging that has gone on that everybody who has any input in how NO is to be rebuilt is rushing the process and avoiding making the tough decisions.....a sure fire recipe for increasing the chances this tragedy happens again.
soonervegas
8/23/2006, 10:42 AM
The problem is that time is not something that the city had. They could not wait 5 years for a study to be performed to come up with the best way to secure the city. The levees had to be repaired for the 2006 hurricane season. Unfortunately, that meant restoring them to pre-Katrina category 3 levels.
I also hope that they do something to improve the levees. I hope that 5 year study is being conducted and they come up with a way to protect the city against the strongest category 5 storm. But in the meantime, you cannot leave the levees as they are and you cannot put the city on hold while you research & hold meetings.
LSU Meathead - do you have faith that politicians will actually do something to fix the levees? I don't. As an outsider I think it is beyond negligent to spend a dime until that main issue is resolved or at least something is in concrete in regards to a time and date of completion. It won't be another 80-100 years for a big Hurrican to hit NOLA.
P.S. I do feel for you.
TUSooner
8/23/2006, 11:31 AM
I know there are good, reasonable people in NO that don't want to ever have to do this again and want to do whatever is necessary tomake the city safer and better. My concern is that because of politics and the demagogging that has gone on that everybody who has any input in how NO is to be rebuilt is rushing the process and avoiding making the tough decisions.....a sure fire recipe for increasing the chances this tragedy happens again.
That's something almost everyone down here is also afraid of. :( The only thing is, people down here can't just give up on it because of those fears. Heck, I'm pretty fed up with the place myself, but I can't just cut and run, and I need some kind of optimism.
Sooner_Bob
8/23/2006, 12:59 PM
You either go to public school & get passed from grade to grade without learning anything. You go to private school & pay $30k+ a year. Or you go to private Catholic school which is more affordable because it is subsidized by the archdiocese.
This was even more evident when it came to repairs for the schools I was in. The private schools were getting fixed and the public schools were sitting empty waiting for cash to repair the damage.
I'm not catholic, but I'd probably prefer my kids to go to a private catholic school than a public school down there.
LSUMeathead
8/23/2006, 02:38 PM
This was even more evident when it came to repairs for the schools I was in. The private schools were getting fixed and the public schools were sitting empty waiting for cash to repair the damage.
I'm not catholic, but I'd probably prefer my kids to go to a private catholic school than a public school down there.
I'm not Catholic either! Neither were about a third of my classmates. At the time I went to Brother Martin, tuition was the same for Catholics & non-Catholics (I believe it is more for non-Catholics now), but Catholics had first pick when it came to admissions. Once they admitted all the qualified Catholic kids, they started on the list of the hethans. :cool:
And when Katrina hit, I received a number of letters from my school asking for funds to rebuild. I sent them a check with no questions asked. They moved operations to Catholic High in Baton Rouge for the entire school year. The schol is now back up & running at the original campus with 1253 students (that is about 350+ fewer students than before the storm).
There are not many Orleans Parish public schools that can say they did that much for their students.
New Orleans is the poster child for why we need a school voucher program.
LSUMeathead
8/23/2006, 02:46 PM
LSU Meathead - do you have faith that politicians will actually do something to fix the levees? I don't. As an outsider I think it is beyond negligent to spend a dime until that main issue is resolved or at least something is in concrete in regards to a time and date of completion. It won't be another 80-100 years for a big Hurricane to hit NOLA.
Do I have faith in the current politicians? No. Do I have faith in the people of New Orleans as a whole? Yes. There are many civic leaders who are competent enough to bring the city back to greatness. They are the ones who will put the pressure on the politicians to do the right thing.
Then there are the citizens as a whole. Most of them want to be in New Orleans because it is their home. I am a 5th generation New Orleanian, and while I do not live there now, I can relate better than most about how strong a desire these people have to return home. That being said, the people will not tolerate inadequate protection. The people will not stand for the government to rest and wait for the next storm to wash all their lives away again. Those that come back will do all they can to hold the city accountable.
Do I think the nation needs to fund these projects? Yes & no. I do not think the nation should fund handouts to people too lazy to do right by themselves and their families. But I do think that the importance of the city of New Orleans as a port city, as the major city at the mouth of the Mississippi, and as a city of significant historical importance to the United States, merits federal funding to get it back to an operational and fully functional level.
The problem is when you confuse the two. Money for levees is not a handout. Money for housing people too stupid to have insurance is a handout.
TUSooner
8/23/2006, 02:49 PM
Do I have faith in the current politicians? No. Do I have faith in the people of New Orleans as a whole? Yes. There are many civic leaders who are competent enough to bring the city back to greatness. They are the ones who will put the pressure on the politicians to do the right thing.
Then there are the citizens as a whole. Most of them want to be in New Orleans because it is their home. I am a 5th generation New Orleanian, and while I do not live there now, I can relate better than most about how strong a desire these people have to return home. That being said, the people will not tolerate inadequate protection. The people will not stand for the government to rest and wait for the next storm to wash all their lives away again. Those that come back will do all they can to hold the city accountable.
Do I think the nation needs to fund these projects? Yes & no. I do not think the nation should fund handouts to people too lazy to do right by themselves and their families. But I do think that the importance of the city of New Orleans as a port city, as the major city at the mouth of the Mississippi, and as a city of significant historical importance to the United States, merits federal funding to get it back to an operational and fully functional level.
The problem is when you confuse the two. Money for levees is not a handout. Money for housing people too stupid to have insurance is a handout.
Heh. Amen, bro'
OUAndy1807
8/23/2006, 10:41 PM
I'm not reading this whole thread, but this thread reminds me of Nick Dipaulo's take on Katrina: "New Orleans needed a good douching out anyway"
GottaHavePride
8/24/2006, 12:14 AM
I see no problem with attempting to rebuild New Orleans. I do, however, tink it's silly to try to rebuild the parts of it that are below sea level. Just let the area flood and back everything else away from the water a little bit. Then hurricanes aren't as big a problem and you don't need any levee system. I mean really, if you're a Mongolian nomad, and your yurt keeps getting flooded by storms, do you keep pitching your yurt in the same damn place, or do you move a bit farther away from the river?
Sooner_Bob
8/24/2006, 07:29 AM
I tink yurt on to something . . .
LSUMeathead
8/24/2006, 07:36 AM
I see no problem with attempting to rebuild New Orleans. I do, however, tink it's silly to try to rebuild the parts of it that are below sea level. Just let the area flood and back everything else away from the water a little bit.
Easier said than done. This was proposed initially & the dispute came down to "how low is too low?" Many said that the Lower Ninth Ward needed to be razed & turned into a greenspace area because it was one of the lowest areas in the city. Of course, that is also where all the poor black people were & that plan was seen as a racist move to keep them out (even though is was backed by the black administration). opponents to the L9W plan then said that Gentilly (a mixed area that is below sea level, but not as low as the L9W) needed to be razed as well. Then they proposed razing Old Metairie (homes ranging from $1M and up) and Lakeview (mixed neighborhood located at the 17th street levee breech). But no one could say if 3 feet below sea level was too low or if 10 feet was the cutoff line.
I completely agree that there are some areas that need to be made into greenspace & not allowed to be rebuilt, but how do you tell the people who have lived in the same house for 10 generations that they cannot rebuild? How do you change the rules now & tell those people that they are welcome to come back, and here is a lump sum for your home, but there is no place they can afford to live?
Once again, even the most radical ideas that are being proposed here were already proposed within a month of Katrina. There is a reason that the city is moving on some & not moving on others. They may not be the best reasons, but all proposals have been given consideration.
Mixer!
8/24/2006, 09:05 AM
So has anyone pitched the idea of filling in all the flooded areas yet to bring them up to sea level before rebuilding? If so, what's the est. cost & timeframe; and is it even feasible?
Sooner_Bob
8/24/2006, 09:43 AM
So are all of the huge piles of mulch/tree limbs still in all the big parks? Talk about tons of trees to clean up.
Mixer! . . . my uncle did some work in the Gulf Coast back in the late 60s after a hurricane and I asked him what he'd do if he was in charge of rebuilding NOLA and he had the same comment as you.
Bulldoze the areas where the homes were devastated and cover them with fill dirt or whatever and then rebuild on top.
Probably not too feasible with the need to redo all of the utilities.
VeeJay
8/24/2006, 09:49 AM
My great uncle and aunt lived in Biloxi about a block behind the Edgewater Mall, just north of Hwy. 90.
Just after Katrina, they went back in, looked at the house and decided the second floor was salvageable, but the first floor would need to be gutted and re-done. Upon further inspection, they found the whole damned thing had remained intact, but shifted off the foundation.
LSUMeathead
8/24/2006, 11:53 AM
So has anyone pitched the idea of filling in all the flooded areas yet to bring them up to sea level before rebuilding? If so, what's the est. cost & timeframe; and is it even feasible?
That's how a lot of the surrounding areas were developend in the first place. 30 years ago, the neighborhood my parents live in now was a marsh. They trucked in dirt, filled it in, and built houses on top. That is a neighborhood of about 200-300 homes, and the land was already just below sea level.
Now, multiply that exponentially, and fill in for homes that are ten feet below sea level. All of a sudden, you realize that you are gonna need a whole lotta dirt. So the plan is feasable, but probably would end up costing 1000+ times more than what is being paid to bring the city back up to snuff right now. At that point, we are talking trillions (with a T).
It comes down to this. Would you rather see them spend your tax dollars to build up a line of dirt levees, or spend the money to backfill an entire city (knowing that they will be spending one or the other)?
LSUMeathead
8/24/2006, 11:55 AM
So are all of the huge piles of mulch/tree limbs still in all the big parks? Talk about tons of trees to clean up.
I am only down there once every one or two months, but from what I have seen, most of the trees have been cleared out. That was the first step was to cleear away all the trees & fallen debris. Last time I drove through Lakeview, the mulching station was empty. The trees stretched over a mile long & at least 50 feet high in this area immediately after the storm. As for the parks, I cannot say. I have not been to city park or even Audubon recently.
Sooner_Bob
8/24/2006, 12:40 PM
I am only down there once every one or two months, but from what I have seen, most of the trees have been cleared out. That was the first step was to cleear away all the trees & fallen debris. Last time I drove through Lakeview, the mulching station was empty. The trees stretched over a mile long & at least 50 feet high in this area immediately after the storm. As for the parks, I cannot say. I have not been to city park or even Audubon recently.
It was pretty wild when I was down there. Piles of stuff here and there.
What I want to know is what did they do with all of the refrigerators . . .
LSUMeathead
8/24/2006, 12:44 PM
It was pretty wild when I was down there. Piles of stuff here and there.
What I want to know is what did they do with all of the refrigerators . . .
Michael Moore was down to do a documentary & he quit when he saw all the refrigerators. He collected them all & brought them home. One year later, he is only halfway through eating all the contents.
TUSooner
8/24/2006, 01:30 PM
I am only down there once every one or two months, but from what I have seen, most of the trees have been cleared out. That was the first step was to cleear away all the trees & fallen debris. Last time I drove through Lakeview, the mulching station was empty. The trees stretched over a mile long & at least 50 feet high in this area immediately after the storm. As for the parks, I cannot say. I have not been to city park or even Audubon recently.
Audubon park looks pretty good, except the lagoon is getting algae ridden and is about to become oxygen depleted because the aeration fountains don't seem to be working. (I've lost even my scant biology vocabulary. :( ) There are some fallen trees still in the lagoon.
City park is not so good, though the socer fields at Harrison & Marconi are 99% fine.
The major trash heaps - like the massive Lakeview one - are mostly gone. But everytime a smaller heap appears outside a house under repair in any neighborhood, it stays for a few weeks, and as soon as it's picked up, other heaps appear and so on and on and on.
Scott D
8/24/2006, 01:35 PM
That's how a lot of the surrounding areas were developend in the first place. 30 years ago, the neighborhood my parents live in now was a marsh. They trucked in dirt, filled it in, and built houses on top. That is a neighborhood of about 200-300 homes, and the land was already just below sea level.
Now, multiply that exponentially, and fill in for homes that are ten feet below sea level. All of a sudden, you realize that you are gonna need a whole lotta dirt. So the plan is feasable, but probably would end up costing 1000+ times more than what is being paid to bring the city back up to snuff right now. At that point, we are talking trillions (with a T).
It comes down to this. Would you rather see them spend your tax dollars to build up a line of dirt levees, or spend the money to backfill an entire city (knowing that they will be spending one or the other)?
well it's not like anyone would really 'miss' the rocky mountains imo. :D
LSUMeathead
8/24/2006, 03:04 PM
Some people are coping with the devastation in their own unique way.
A heartfelt look at Post-Katrina New Orleans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOGlLehx7sg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esoonerfans%2Ecom%2Fforums% 2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D1503488%26posted%3D1%23po st1503488)
TUSooner
8/24/2006, 03:08 PM
Some people are coping with the devastation in their own unique way.
A heartfelt look at Post-Katrina New Orleans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOGlLehx7sg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esoonerfans%2Ecom%2Fforums% 2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D1503488%26posted%3D1%23po st1503488)
That was funny, in a sad and disturbing way.
LOL :D:
LSUMeathead
8/24/2006, 03:13 PM
That was funny, in a sad and disturbing way.
LOL :D:
It's the kind of funny that you really have to be from New Orleans to appreciate.
Okla-homey
8/24/2006, 07:28 PM
When did Fish move to NOLA?;)
TUSooner
8/24/2006, 07:50 PM
When did Fish move to NOLA?;)
Right after he left the Royal Navy, I think.
:)
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