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SoonerInKCMO
8/21/2006, 03:22 PM
Makes some interesting points...



By TERENCE J. DALY
Published: August 21, 2006
San Francisco

THREE years into the Sunni insurgency in Iraq, everyone from slicksleeved privates fighting for survival in Ramadi to the echelons above reality at the Pentagon still believes that eliminating insurgents will eliminate the insurgency. They are wrong.

There is a difference between killing insurgents and fighting an insurgency. In three years, the Sunni insurgency has grown from nothing into a force that threatens our national objective of establishing and maintaining a free, independent and united Iraq. During that time, we have fought insurgents with airstrikes, artillery, the courage and tactical excellence of our forces, and new technology worth billions of dollars. We are further from our goal than we were when we started.

Counterinsurgency is about gaining control of the population, not killing or detaining enemy fighters. A properly planned counterinsurgency campaign moves the population, by stages, from reluctant acceptance of the counterinsurgent force to, ideally, full support.

American soldiers deride “winning hearts and minds” as the equivalent of sitting around a campfire singing “Kumbaya.” But in fact it is a sophisticated, multifaceted, even ruthless struggle to wrest control of a population from cunning and often brutal foes. The counterinsurgent must be ready and able to kill insurgents — lots of them — but as a means, not an end.

Counterinsurgency is work better suited to a police force than a military one. Military forces — by tradition, organization, equipment and training — are best at killing people and breaking things. Police organizations, on the other hand, operate with minimum force. They know their job can’t be done from miles away by technology. They are accustomed to face-to-face contact with their adversaries, and they know how to draw street-level information and support from the populace. The police don’t threaten the governments they work under, because they don’t have the firepower to stage coups.

The United States needs a professional police organization specifically for creating and keeping public order in cooperation with American or foreign troops during international peacekeeping operations. It must be able to help the military control indigenous populations in failing states like Haiti or during insurgencies like the one in Falluja.

The force should include light armored cavalry and air cavalry paramilitary patrol units to deal with armed guerillas, as well as linguistically trained and culturally attuned experts for developing and running informants. It should be skilled and professional at screening and debriefing detainees, and at conducting public information and psychological operations. It must be completely transportable by air and accustomed to working effectively with American and local military forces.

Bureaucratic ownership of this force will doubtless be controversial. Because the mission of international peacekeeping entails dealing mostly with civilians, the force would ideally be a civilian organization. But no civilian department is currently structured in a way that seems suitable.

At least initially, the force would most likely fall under the Department of Defense. The establishing legislation should include a fire wall, however, to guard against the tendency of paramilitary units to evolve into pure warriors with berets, boots and bangles.

Crucial to the success of this force is that the American people thoroughly discuss and understand the organization and its mission. Only by having this discussion can we avoid the example of the Phoenix Program in Vietnam, which combined the Vietnamese National Police with American advisers to root the Viet Cong shadow government out of rural villages. The Phoenix Program was highly effective; because it was supposed to be secret, however, the program was not explained to the American people, and it became impossible to refute charges of torture and assassination. Without the support of the American people, the program lost momentum and died.

The legislation establishing the police force should firmly anchor it in respect for human rights. Its mission will be to advance American ideals of justice and freedom under the law, and it must do so by example as well as word. That will be both difficult and critical in a place like Iraq, where it would have to wrest control of the population from insurgents who regard beheading hostages with chain saws as acceptable.

Stringent population control measures like curfews, random searches, mandatory presentation of identity documents, searches of businesses and residences without warrants and preventive detention would be standing operating procedure. For such measures to be acceptable to the public, they must be based on solid legal ground and enforced fairly, transparently and impartially.

The police are used to functioning within legal restraints. Our armed forces, however, are used to obeying only the laws of war and the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice. Soldiers and marines are trained to respond to force with massive force. To expect them to switch overnight to using force only as permitted by a foreign legal code, enforced and reviewed by foreign magistrates and judges, is quite unrealistic. It could also threaten their survival the next time they have to fight a conventional enemy.

Forcing the round peg of our military, which has no equal in speed, firepower, maneuver and shock action, into the square hole of international law enforcement and population control isn’t working. We need a peacekeeping force to complement our war-fighters, and we need to start building it now.

Terence J. Daly is a retired military intelligence officer and counterinsurgency specialist who served in Vietnam as a province-level adviser.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/21/opinion/21daly.html

JohnnyMack
8/21/2006, 04:01 PM
What they need is Chuck Norris.

Harry Beanbag
8/21/2006, 04:44 PM
Don't we have civilian law enforcement people over there training the Iraqis how do just what he is proposing?

Scott D
8/21/2006, 04:48 PM
this is the problem when you have a country run for over 30 years by a meglomaniac who has anyone who could possibly threaten his position of power by being competent shot and killed.

C&CDean
8/21/2006, 04:49 PM
Don't we have civilian law enforcement people over there training the Iraqis how do just what he is proposing?

pssssst. It's a little piece out of a little liberal rag.

Oldnslo
8/21/2006, 05:26 PM
In my humble opinion, the way you make peace with someone who wants you dead/gone is to make them dead/gone.

Remember Masada? No, not the part about the small band of fighters who held off the Romans. I mean the part after that, when the Romans sent an entire legion to wipe the resistance off the map.

There was no more uprising in that part of the world for something like 900 years.

We have chosen to try to be more civil in the way we make war. Unfortunately, this doesn't work so well. War, by its very nature, is an untidy and mean business wherein innocent people lose not only their innocence, but also their lives, limbs, and loved ones. That's why you don't make war over everything. But, when you do make war, you're supposed to go forth and kill the enemy.

The terrorists aren't limiting their attacks to military targets. To the contrary, they're TARGETING CIVILIANS. I'm certainly not advocating that. What I am advocating is that we target the enemy whether they're using civilians as shields or not. Further, we should be willing to use all options available to us. A firestorm here or there will take some fight out of the enemy.

Yeah, it's ugly. Hell on Earth. But, since we've gone down this road, I propose we maximize the damage on the enemy and minimize the casualties on our side.

PhilTLL
8/21/2006, 05:58 PM
Don't we have civilian law enforcement people over there training the Iraqis how do just what he is proposing?

He's talking about an American-composed specialized police force so that we neither have to rely on our military doing jobs that aren't usually theirs nor on raising and training a large Iraqi force in a short time without certainty as to their individual commitment.

Harry Beanbag
8/21/2006, 06:17 PM
He's talking about an American-composed specialized police force so that we neither have to rely on our military doing jobs that aren't usually theirs nor on raising and training a large Iraqi force in a short time without certainty as to their individual commitment.


Well, he said a few things, with one of them being how effective the Phoenix Program was in Vietnam, which sounds like what we're already doing over there.

I fail to see how that would be received any differently than having American soldiers over there. Different uniforms is all, they would still be seen as outsiders with no legal jurisdiction, and would make wonderful targets.

And unless we plan on invading and occupying several more countries, I don't really understand the point.

Oh, and I love this paragraph...


Stringent population control measures like curfews, random searches, mandatory presentation of identity documents, searches of businesses and residences without warrants and preventive detention would be standing operating procedure. For such measures to be acceptable to the public, they must be based on solid legal ground and enforced fairly, transparently and impartially.

Something tells me that if this were to in fact happen, this same writer would be ranting about how these renegade "police force" stormtroopers were trampling on the rights of the citizens of whatever country they were in.

PhilTLL
8/21/2006, 07:09 PM
The most important thing he notes about Phoenix is that it eventually failed because it wasn't transparent or legitimate. People won't support what they don't trust.

As for the "Masada" post, brute military force is out of place in the present. How would firebombing a city demonstrate the legitimacy of our operations or the Iraqi government? How would obliterating a block or two to get an insurgent safe house engender us fondly to the Iraqi people? It's a surefire way to send popular support for the insurgency to new heights. The Roman comparison is faulty, because their aim was to intimidate the entire populace, and ours is to convince the populace that the insurgency is wrong. To rule by military fear would be hypocritical for a country who deposed Saddam to end the same thing.

Harry Beanbag
8/21/2006, 07:36 PM
The most important thing he notes about Phoenix is that it eventually failed because the media thought it wasn't transparent or legitimate. The media won't support what they are kept out of the loop of.

Fixed for greater accuracy. ;)

WILBURJIM
8/21/2006, 10:15 PM
Two years ago John Kerry said "we should fight a more sensitive war on terror." Well, that is what this ex-military intel guy is asking for. A more sensitive war on terror, isn't he? Unfortunately, it is also what we are pretty much doing now, fighting a war where we don't want to pi$$ anyone off too much.
Shouldn't we care just a little bit less about the civil war going on between the sunni and the shi'a? Shouldn't we step aside and let them kill each other, maybe even encourage that, quietly? Remember the old saying, "divide and conquer." Well that sounds like a plan. Encourage that sunni hatred of shi'a. Let them decide with THEIR blood.
Then put a few more eggs into the Kurdish basket. Yes, help the Kurds. The Kurds with a little more clout, smack dab in the middle of the Turks, Arabs and Persians. All that islamic jihad mixed in with all the different ethnicities. Talk about a mix up in the middle east.

Desert Sapper
8/21/2006, 10:27 PM
It isn't, and never has been, about what we do. It's about what the Iraqis do. If they can't gain control over their own country in the next 10 years, we've failed them. If we prematurely leave them to swat blindly at the enemy by themselves, we've failed them. If we fight the insurgents as the writer suggests, with artillery and bombs as opposed to Soldiers meshing with the civilian population, we are setting ourselves up for failure. The bottom line is that much of what he suggests is already being done. Time will tell if we can successfully prepare Iraqi police to do the full mission.

Tear Down This Wall
8/22/2006, 09:37 AM
Woo-hoo! Another "fight nice" piece by a liberal rag. Shocking. If these guys had been around in 1941 there would be no Europe, just one big Germany. And, the Japanese Empire would extend down to Australia and New Zealand.

As I've said before, it'll take another 9/11 to make the liberals understand that war means war. Sad.

SoonerInKCMO
8/22/2006, 09:50 AM
Maybe I shouldn't have included the link to where the piece came from.

FaninAma
8/22/2006, 10:11 AM
I say arm the Shiites to the teeth and let them have at the Sunnis if the Sunnis are too stupid to realize they are in the vast minority in the country.

Buying into the American led coalition government is really their only chance to avoid the terrible vengeance that will be brought down on their heads should the current government fail.

If one were really cynical then one might think the best thing that could happen would be a huge civil war between the Shiities and the Sunnis so that their resources, hatred and bloodthirst were turned inward on each other instead of the West.

royalfan5
8/22/2006, 11:47 AM
Of course arming the Shiites to the teeth would lead to more Iranian involvement in Iraq, being that there is a lot of overlap between the Shiite communities in both nations. I'm not sure more Iranian influence in Iraq would be in our best interests. IMO, we should of immediately split Iraq into three nations, and tried to avoid them doing a Yugoslavia impression. Or at the very least went with a Federal system with large degrees of regional autonomy.

OklahomaTuba
8/22/2006, 03:06 PM
they tried the federal system (what Bush was wanting) and the Iraqis didn't want it.

I think we just need to pick a side, and make sure its not the one loyal to Iran (Sadr) if they don't start playing nice.

PhilTLL
8/22/2006, 03:17 PM
Woo-hoo! Another "fight nice" piece by a liberal rag. Shocking. If these guys had been around in 1941 there would be no Europe, just one big Germany. And, the Japanese Empire would extend down to Australia and New Zealand.

I'm pretty sure the comparison between this struggle and any conventional army-vs-army war has been thoroughly discredited before, so I won't bother.

royalfan5
8/22/2006, 03:20 PM
they tried the federal system (what Bush was wanting) and the Iraqis didn't want it.

I think we just need to pick a side, and make sure its not the one loyal to Iran (Sadr) if they don't start playing nice.
That's why we should have just split the whole thing up. Clearly they don't want to be a unified country too badly either.

PhilTLL
8/22/2006, 03:21 PM
If one were really cynical then one might think the best thing that could happen would be a huge civil war between the Shiities and the Sunnis so that their resources, hatred and bloodthirst were turned inward on each other instead of the West.

Truly cynically, we should never have taken the lid off the whole damn mess in the first place. I don't really care whether the Iraqi people are free or not, especially if they're not competent enough to pull it off.

Tear Down This Wall
8/22/2006, 03:39 PM
I'm pretty sure the comparison between this struggle and any conventional army-vs-army war has been thoroughly discredited before, so I won't bother.

I'm not headed in that direction, so it certainly would be pointless for you to go there. My direction is total destruction of Al-Sadr, the Sunni Triangle, Tehran, Damascus, Mecca, and Medina.

In WWII, we totally destroyed our enemies and the roots of their pathetic 'we'll rule the world' mindset. We didn't worry about the killing of innocents as much as winning and survival. We sent the Japanese here to camps away from the rest of the population.

We're far too politically correct these days to actually fight in such a way as to end the terrorist threats. Today, we pretend lilly-white grandmothers catching a plane to see grandchildren are worthy of airport harassment, but don't dare 'racially profile' Arabs travelling in the U.S. We prosecute our own soldiers and marines for doing their jobs. It's absurd.

Further, the left-leaning voters among us pretend there is no threat. They are led like sheep into a 1938, Chamberlain-like trance as the islamofascists openly and brazenly admit that they want an empire stretching from Spain to Afghanistan. My guess is that only another, more terrible terrorist act on U.S. soil would snap them out of it.

SoonerInKCMO
8/22/2006, 03:40 PM
Destroying Mecca = 1 Billion jihaadists.

Tear Down This Wall
8/22/2006, 03:46 PM
Destroying Mecca = 1 Billion jihaadists.

No. It would be hundreds of millions less that that to be sure once all of their places are turned into burning holes in the ground. If we were to release the full strength of our military and economy we'd wipe out the islamofascists.

However, we won't. Our leaders and the leaders of the rest of the Western world are but sad shadows of folk like Churchill and Truman. The Western leaders of today fiddle as Rome burns.

SoonerInKCMO
8/22/2006, 03:49 PM
Well, take a page out of their book then if you're so sure of your idea. Go to Europe, commandeer a trans-Atlantic flight and plow it into a temple in Mecca.

PhilTLL
8/22/2006, 03:52 PM
my head hurts

This is not a war between nation states with total war machines backing them. We have framed this conflict as civilized people vs. backwards, violent barbarians and a major component of this is convincing that part of the world that we're right. Therefore, we cannot act like backwards, violent barbarians. If there is a point at which we change the rhetoric to one of a hardened, survivalist mentality, perhaps. But not now.

Tear Down This Wall
8/22/2006, 03:54 PM
Well, take a page out of their book then if you're so sure of your idea. Go to Europe, commandeer a trans-Atlantic flight and plow it into a temple in Mecca.

You're comparing apples to oranges. We don't have too do that because our military possesses an arsenal that could destroy entire cities within a day's time. We could even do it without so much as sniffing our nuclear arsenal. We have bombs that can destroy armored columns 16 football fields long. Only one was used in the defeat of Saddam Hussein.

Tear Down This Wall
8/22/2006, 03:55 PM
But not now.

Like I said, for some, it will take another 9/11. I'm not in that crowd. I realize the threat is here now and could be ended now if Western leaders had the stomach for it.

PhilTLL
8/22/2006, 04:06 PM
A little word replacement game...


Like I said, for some, it will take another infidel invasion of a Muslim country. I'm not in that crowd. I realize the threat is here now and could be ended now if Islamic leaders had the stomach for it.

Hm.

Tear Down This Wall
8/22/2006, 04:10 PM
You don't have to prove to me that you don't see the light. I know that from your posts. It's no different than any other worthless leftist relativism.

PhilTLL
8/22/2006, 04:47 PM
You don't have to prove to me that you don't see the light. I know that from your posts. It's no different than any other worthless leftist relativism.

No, my point was that moderation in thinking is required everywhere. The people encouraging levelling of cities on both sides are also the ones who will swear to you that they see the light. And I'm not really a leftist politically, nor do relativism and absolutism have anything to do with a definition like left/right.

Harry Beanbag
8/22/2006, 05:04 PM
No, my point was that moderation in thinking is required everywhere. The people encouraging levelling of cities on both sides are also the ones who will swear to you that they see the light. And I'm not really a leftist politically, nor do relativism and absolutism have anything to do with a definition like left/right.


I don't pretend to know how to solve this issue. But currently, only one side is capable of leveling entire cities. I'd like to keep it that way.

PhilTLL
8/22/2006, 05:12 PM
I don't pretend to know how to solve this issue. But currently, only one side is capable of leveling entire cities. I'd like to keep it that way.

As would I, but the one side using that power on the other is probably not the best way to do it. I was inaccurately using "levelling cities" when I meant "extreme violence in general."