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OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 01:42 PM
Judge Nixes Warrantless Surveillance

DETROIT (AP) - A federal judge ruled Thursday that the government's warrantless wiretapping program is unconstitutional and ordered an immediate halt to it.

U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor in Detroit became the first judge to strike down the National Security Agency's program, which she says violates the rights to free speech and privacy.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed the lawsuit on behalf of journalists, scholars and lawyers who say the program has made it difficult for them to do their jobs. They believe many of their overseas contacts are likely targets of the program, which involves secretly taping conversations between people in the U.S. and people in other countries.

The government argued that the program is well within the president's authority, but said proving that would require revealing state secrets.

The ACLU said the state-secrets argument was irrelevant because the Bush administration already had publicly revealed enough information about the program for Taylor to rule.http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060817/D8JI9A281.html

How timely, considering that yesterday was to be the big day for those terrorists they just arrested plotting to blow up airliners full of people.

Also Glad to know the ACLU is sticking up for those poor journalists and lawyers so they can do their jobs. Who cares if thousands of ordinary people get killed by terrorists as a result? I mean, which is more important after all?

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 01:44 PM
seems to me that a Federal Judge struck down the law, not the ACLU.

Why do you hate the Constitution?

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 01:48 PM
seems to me that a Federal Judge struck down the law, not the ACLU.

She is no-doubt a member, if not just in spirit. Probably is another one of Jimmuahs grand appoitments during his unfortunate years in power.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 01:50 PM
who needs Civil Liberties anyways? I don't use mine that often.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 01:51 PM
****ing constitutional rights--always getting in the way.

bri
8/17/2006, 01:52 PM
She is no-doubt a member, if not just in spirit. Probably is another one of Jimmuahs grand appoitments during his unfortunate years in power.

Yes, because anyone who agrees with them in part or in whole MUST be a member of that vile group. That's the only rational explaination.

And nice callback to the earlier Jimmy Carter rant, btw. That's the mark of a true craftsman.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 01:53 PM
when editing you forgot to bold another sentence


U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor in Detroit became the first judge to strike down the National Security Agency's program, which she says violates the rights to free speech and privacy

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 01:53 PM
who needs Civil Liberties anyways? I don't use mine that often.

So, you don't think the CIA and NSA should be able to listen to that "chatter" anymore huh?

Nice.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 01:54 PM
when editing you forgot to bold another sentence

Glad to know our terrorist friends trying to blowup planes full of people will have no problems doing that now.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 01:55 PM
So, you don't think the CIA and NSA should be able to listen to that "chatter" anymore huh?

Nice.

I didn't write the Constitution but I sure as hell like living under it's provisions. You don't?

Are you advocating a dictatorship style of government be put in it's place? You are aren't you?

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 01:55 PM
Yes, because anyone who agrees with them in part or in whole MUST be a member of that vile group. That's the only rational explaination.

Usually is the case when it comes to the judge like folk I understand.

tbl
8/17/2006, 01:56 PM
Why do you hate the Constitution?
Why do you hate the United States? ;)

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 01:57 PM
government's warrantless wiretapping program

go get a warrant. Have some rubberstamping judge authorize it and everything is OK. Why is that so hard to do? It's not.

bri
8/17/2006, 01:58 PM
Usually is the case when it comes to the judge like folk I understand.

You forgot "professors", "Hollyweird-types", and the omnipresent "commies".

Man, it must suck controlling the White House, both houses of Congress AND the Supreme Court yet still being foiled at every turn by a bunch of patchouli-smelling hippies.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 01:58 PM
I didn't write the Constitution but I sure as hell like living under it's provisions. You don't?

Are you advocating a dictatorship style of government be put in it's place? You are aren't you?

Yes, of course. Listening to terrorists = want a dictatorship.

How stupid.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 01:59 PM
Yes, of course. Listening to terrorists = want a dictatorship.

How stupid.

just using your logic as you appear to hate Civil Liberties.


Seriously, what's so difficult for the NSA or CIA to get a warrant?

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 01:59 PM
go get a warrant. Have some rubberstamping judge authorize it and everything is OK. Why is that so hard to do? It's not.

Thats not the problem. If you did some reading on the matter, you would know this.

You can't get a warrant on "chatter".

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:01 PM
Thats not the problem. If you did some reading on the matter, you would know this.

You can't get a warrant on "chatter".

I've read all I need to. A Judge ruled it Unconstitutional. I'm assuming she read more about it then you have.

Quit crying.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:01 PM
just using your logic as you appear to hate Civil Liberties.


Seriously, what's so difficult for the NSA or CIA to get a warrant?

Actually, you aren't.

And see my other post as to why, or better yet, read some background on this.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:02 PM
Yes, of course. Listening to terrorists = want a dictatorship.

How stupid.

No, being willing to bend over and take it up the *** from Big Government at every turn because WE'RE AT WAR FOR THE CHILDREN = want a dictatorship.

Where do you draw the line between government intrusion and personal privacy?

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:03 PM
I've read all I need to. A Judge ruled it Unconstitutional. I'm assuming she read more about it then you have.

Quit crying.
Judges like this rule **** unconstitutional all the time, kind of like the pledge of allegiance was unconstitutional a little while back.

Its usually up to interpretation, which equals bias.

yermom
8/17/2006, 02:03 PM
No, being willing to bend over and take it up the *** from Big Government at every turn because WE'RE AT WAR FOR THE CHILDREN = want a dictatorship.

Where do you draw the line between government intrusion and personal privacy?

what do you have to hide mdk?

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:04 PM
No, being willing to bend over and take it up the *** from Big Government at every turn because WE'RE AT WAR FOR THE CHILDREN = want a dictatorship.

Where do you draw the line between government intrusion and personal privacy?


Hmm, England does this, and last I checked, its not a dictatorship.

But this wasn't what the suit was about. It was about keeping Lawyers and Journalists doing their jobs.

Anyways, given your description of this war, when 12 planes full of people were about to be exploded yesterday says a lot.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:05 PM
quit crying

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:06 PM
I've read all I need to. A Judge ruled it Unconstitutional.

Yeah, something tells me she probably doesn't fly much.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:07 PM
Yeah, something tells me show probably does fly much.

is that written in English?

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:09 PM
quit crying
No crying, just think its disgusting that people don't give a **** about our national security, the very day AFTER all those planes were to be blown up.

But, what can you expect from the same people that defend the rights of child molesters and rapists.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:10 PM
is that written in English?
It is. Just edited it.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:11 PM
maybe some people think it is disgusting that there are people like you that hate Civil Liberties.

Doesn't mean that they are right and you are wrong. Doesn't mean that you are right and they are wrong.

Settle down, you'll live longer.

NormanPride
8/17/2006, 02:13 PM
You know, instead of bitching about how those damn libz are ruining your life, why not try to make warrantless wiretapping constitutional? This is the perfect time to try and pass an amendment. How about instead of blaming other people for their opinions, you go out and do something with the power your mighty party has harnessed? I swear, man, it's like you're not even IN power, you bitch about the liberals so much.

OUstudent4life
8/17/2006, 02:14 PM
How timely, considering that yesterday was to be the big day for those terrorists they just arrested plotting to blow up airliners full of people.


Actually, to throw some fuel on the fire, I'd say that you've got the root of the problem right here.

The british are the peep's that caught these terrorists. And it probably wasn't through wiretapping...it was through good ole' fashioned personal level spying...something the british still do extremely well, and something we don't do well anymore. The US has become far, far too reliant on technology to catch the bad guys, and in these days of craziness on the individual, not the state, level, technology isn't nearly good enough to do the job.

To quote a good friend of mine (from his blog :D)


I call it the “21 Jump Street Strategy.” As you will recall, the detectives in 21 Jump Street did not bring down drug runners and suicidal teens through sheer brute force, but instead through infiltrating social groups at local high schools to gather evidence and intelligence that they then used to fight crime. It’s brilliant! If only we had trained professionals who knew how to infiltrate terrorist cells and gather information about nascent threats to our shores.

Fortunately the British still do that sort of thing. Sneaky, nasty spy games are how we make ourselves safer in this world.

In short, I'm for more actual spies on the ground. The wiretapping can continue if they get a warrant, following that little thing they call the Constitution. If they do that, go for it. All you've got to do is convince a judge that you have cause, and the party in power seems to have been placing enough judges in the courts to do that for them, right?

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:14 PM
You know, instead of bitching about how those damn libz are ruining your life, why not try to make warrantless wiretapping constitutional? This is the perfect time to try and pass an amendment. How about instead of blaming other people for their opinions, you go out and do something with the power your mighty party has harnessed? I swear, man, it's like you're not even IN power, you bitch about the liberals so much.

can you do all of that from the internet? A paper letter with a stamp on it seems like a lot of work.

Rhino
8/17/2006, 02:14 PM
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e37/juliea69/temporary/68yh.png

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:16 PM
maybe some people think it is disgusting that there are people like you that hate Civil Liberties.

Doesn't mean that they are right and you are wrong. Doesn't mean that you are right and they are wrong.

Settle down, you'll live longer.

So again, you don't think the NSA or CIA should have the ability to investigate chatter? The same chatter which foiled several terrorists attacks?

Again, this isn't about hating civil liberties. If thats all you see, then thats sad.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:16 PM
what do you have to hide mdk?

I've got secrets. BIG secrets.


Seriously, where are we going to draw a line? Are we going to wait until the FBI is performing random anal probes to say enough is enough? This **** is like a toll road. They tell you the tolls will go away as soon as the road is paid for, but by the time that happens people are accustomed to the tolls and don't give a ****. And then they keep raising the tolls, a little bit at a time so nobody notices.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:17 PM
So again, you don't think the NSA or CIA should have the ability to investigate chatter? The same chatter which foiled several terrorists attacks?

Again, this isn't about hating civil liberties. If thats all you see, then thats sad.

AGAIN, WHEN THEY GET A WARRANT AND FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION I'M ALL FOR EVERY LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY PROTECTING US AND SOLVING CRIMES.


Again, why do you hate the Constitution?

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:21 PM
My take on all this?

A great American jurist once wrote: The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

IOW, you gotta do what you gotta do to protect America from jihaadis.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:21 PM
I might add, Tuba, quit crying.

tbl
8/17/2006, 02:21 PM
21 Jump Street as a basis for our National Security... I love it!

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:21 PM
The british are the peep's that caught these terrorists. And it probably wasn't through wiretapping...it was through good ole' fashioned personal level spying...something the british still do extremely well, and something we don't do well anymore.

Actually,


A congressman briefed by intelligence officials, who did not want to be identified because of the sensitivity of the investigation, said U.S. intelligence had intercepted terrorist chatter and British intelligence helped thwart the plot through undercover work. http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6009225,00.html

As far as what I have seen, you can't get a warrant for general "chatter".

We need both.

Now, we don't have either thanks for our friends at the ACLU.

I can't wait for the dims to burn the patriot act next.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:22 PM
21 Jump Street as a basis for our National Security... I love it!

Heh.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:23 PM
My take on all this?

A great American jurist once wrote: The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

IOW, you gotta do what you gotta do to protect America from jihaadis.

why not get a special judge for these cases that will just rubberstamp each and every warrant that they see? It's not difficult to do and you get to follow the rules set forth in the Constitution.

Why not? Can anyone splain that? Please.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:23 PM
IOW, you gotta do what you gotta do to protect America from jihaadis.

There is a point where the loss of personal freedom and privacy is worse for America than anything the durka durkas can do.

Remember, folks, all the power you're ceding to the pubz is going to be in the hands of the libz sooner or later.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:23 PM
Heck, Abe Lincoln even temporarily suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War. Post-war, his acts were subsequently determined to have been unconstitutional by SCOTUS, but he was dead by then so it was all good.

Despite all that, he's on money and has a flashy memorial on the Mall in DC. I know, I've seen it.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:25 PM
There is a point where the loss of personal freedom and privacy is worse for America than anything the durka durkas can do.

Remember, folks, all the power you're ceding to the pubz is going to be in the hands of the libz sooner or later.

I agree, as should most reasonable people.

But the fact is, this stuff works and keep planes full of innocent people from exploding or crashing into skyscrapers full of people. And so far, I havn't seen any violation of anyones civl rights. Seems to be doing the exact opposite of what your saying its doing. If you pay attention to the facts and stuff.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:27 PM
Heck, Abe Lincoln even temporarily suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War. Post-war, his acts were subsequently determined to have been unconstitutional by SCOTUS, but he was dead by then so it was all good.

Despite all that, he's on money and has a flashy memorial on the Mall in DC. I know, I've seen it.


The HUGE difference is that there's never going to be an end to the GWOT. It will ebb and flow, but you can't eradicate an idea. Anything justified on the basis of WE'RE AT WAR FOR THE CHILDREN is a justification to make it permanant.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:27 PM
why not get a special judge for these cases that will just rubberstamp each and every warrant that they see? It's not difficult to do and you get to follow the rules set forth in the Constitution.

Why not? Can anyone splain that? Please.

You'd kinda need blanket authority because the judge would never get any sleep and thus would get kinda edgy. Think about it, its 2am and Durka "A" in Pakistan is talking on the phone to Durka "B" in Cleveland. <cut to NSA listening station> "Okay, which one of you is gonna call and wake-up the judge?":eek:

OUstudent4life
8/17/2006, 02:28 PM
Actually,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6009225,00.html

As far as what I have seen, you can't get a warrant for general "chatter".

We need both.

Now, we don't have either thanks for our friends at the ACLU.

I can't wait for the dims to burn the patriot act next.

Actually, we still have both. Do you have any proof that the "chatter" was in the US at any point?

It's still perfectly legal for us to listen to stuff going down between people in other countries.

AND THEY CAN STILL DO IT AS LONG AS THEY GET A FREAKING WARRANT!!! So get some intelligence to back up why you would need to listen to US-originitating chatter, and you're golden.

yermom
8/17/2006, 02:28 PM
if all they were worried about was terrorists then it wouldn't be so scary

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:29 PM
But the fact is, this stuff works and keep planes full of innocent people from exploding or crashing into skyscrapers full of people. And so far, I havn't seen any violation of anyones civl rights. Seems to be doing the exact opposite of what your saying its doing. If you pay attention to the facts and stuff.

I don't know where the line between freedom and security should be, but I'm sure glad there are organizations like the ACLU trying to make sure there's a line somewhere.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:30 PM
You'd kinda need blanket authority because the judge would never get any sleep and thus would get kinda edgy. Think about it, its 2am and Durka "A" in Pakistan is talking on the phone to Durka "B" in Cleveland. <cut to NSA listening station> "Okay, which one of you is gonna call and wake-up the judge?":eek:

get three judges, they work 8 hour shifts. That problem is solved. next?

*edit* we'll need 6, maybe 10. That way we cover the weekends and when one or two regulars get sick.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:30 PM
The HUGE difference is that there's never going to be an end to the GWOT. It will ebb and flow, but you can't eradicate an idea. Anything justified on the basis of WE'RE AT WAR FOR THE CHILDREN is a justification to make it permanant.

My friend, you'll just have to trust me on this, but there were a lot of people in the North, including politicians and judges, who honestly and in good faith thought the Civil War was unwinnable until the events of July 1863 made it seem the North might actually prevail. Going into 1863 it was like South: 35 North: 3 at halftime.

That was a war over ideas.

This is a war over belief systems which runs much deeper. Thus, I believe, the only good jihaadi is a dead jihaadi.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:31 PM
get three judges, they work 8 hour shifts. That problem is solved. next?

Perfect! Call the White House!:D

SoonerInKCMO
8/17/2006, 02:31 PM
You'd kinda need blanket authority because the judge would never get any sleep and thus would get kinda edgy. Think about it, its 2am and Durka "A" in Pakistan is talking on the phone to Durka "B" in Cleveland. <cut to NSA listening station> "Okay, which one of you is gonna call and wake-up the judge?":eek:

I believe, under FISA, they have 24 hours after beginning surveilance to seek judicial review of their actions. And from what I've read, the judges tasked with enforcing FISA have yet to turn down a request.

OUstudent4life
8/17/2006, 02:32 PM
21 Jump Street as a basis for our National Security... I love it!

:D

It's making light of the situation, but I still think he's on the right track.

To quote another part of the blog...talking about Lincoln's quote to "make your enemy your friend"...


I keep coming back to Lincoln’s words, and I think there may be some hidden meaning that we’ve been missing. What if he really mean the best way to defeat your enemy is to make him THINK you are his friend and then stab him repeatedly between the ribs as soon as he lets down his guard?

Not ALL liberals are pansy-arses. Stabby stabby :D.

SoonerInKCMO
8/17/2006, 02:34 PM
My friend, you'll just have to trust me on this, but there were a lot of people in the North, including politicians and judges, who honestly and in good faith thought the Civil War was unwinnable until the events of July 1863 made it seem the North might actually prevail. Going into 1863 it was like South: 35 North: 3 at halftime.

Apples & Oranges if you ask me. The Civil War was fought between two identifiable groups in a defined area. The current war, not so much.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:34 PM
get three judges, they work 8 hour shifts. That problem is solved. next?

*edit* we'll need 6, maybe 10. That way we cover the weekends and when one or two regulars get sick.

okay smarty, who's gonna cover it on college gamedays? Hmmm?

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:35 PM
You'd kinda need blanket authority because the judge would never get any sleep and thus would get kinda edgy. Think about it, its 2am and Durka "A" in Pakistan is talking on the phone to Durka "B" in Cleveland. <cut to NSA listening station> "Okay, which one of you is gonna call and wake-up the judge?":eek:

According to Law and Order, there are on-call judges for things like this. But how about this a compromise? In exigent circumstances data can be collected, but it can't be used for anything without a warrant. If a judge decides a warrant isn't...warranted...the data gets destroyed. A retroactive warrant, if you will. Of course, this creates a ginormous potential for abuse.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:36 PM
Apples & Oranges if you ask me. The Civil War was fought between two identifiable groups in a defined area. The current war, not so much.

I believe the two groups are starkly identifiable. People who believe in the notion of secular governments and free societies...and everyone else.

OUstudent4life
8/17/2006, 02:36 PM
I believe, under FISA, they have 24 hours after beginning surveilance to seek judicial review of their actions. And from what I've read, the judges tasked with enforcing FISA have yet to turn down a request.


That's the part that's always confused me. There's a completely legal law on the books that lets you do pretty much anything you want in terms of surveilance...what more do you really need?

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:36 PM
okay smarty, who's gonna cover it on college gamedays? Hmmm?

hey they let wimmins become Judges don't they? The women judges work gamedays!!

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:37 PM
I don't know where the line between freedom and security should be, but I'm sure glad there are organizations like the ACLU trying to make sure there's a line somewhere.

Well, I for am sure glad they are trying to find that line by defending child rapists, by trying to destroy the boy scouts, by trying to keep the airports from searching people, by KEEPING the trains and subways from searching people, by rooting out the evil that is Christianity in public (and private now!).

Yes, they do much good.

With friends like the ACLU, we really don't need anymore enemies.

Hatfield
8/17/2006, 02:38 PM
i see the musical instrument of logic referring to the essploding plane plot yesterday and wish to clarify that "chatter" didn't foil this plot.

a tip did.

from a human...

a muslim human.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:38 PM
According to Law and Order, there are on-call judges for things like this. But how about this a compromise? In exigent circumstances data can be collected, but it can't be used for anything without a warrant. If a judge decides a warrant isn't...warranted...the data gets destroyed. A retroactive warrant, if you will. Of course, this creates a ginormous potential for abuse.

You're closer than you think. Right now, the issue is whether intel gathered via these means is actionable by law enforcement. If not, its evidence which doesn't get in at trial and the perp walks.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:38 PM
That was a war over ideas.



The GWOT is being framed as a war on an idea. The Civil War had a definable goal--the restoration of the South to the US. What is the end game for the GWOT? How will we know it's over so we can get back all the freedoms we're giving up?

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:39 PM
That's the part that's always confused me. There's a completely legal law on the books that lets you do pretty much anything you want in terms of surveilance...what more do you really need?

From what I understand, its getting the warrent on "chatter" coming from someplace you don't know of yet.

Theres something there, its important, but we don't know who or what it is. FISA doesn't seem to cover that.

Must be why Jimmauh and Clinton loved using it so much, even though we weren't at war then.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:39 PM
hey they let wimmins become Judges don't they? The women judges work gamedays!!

Who would fry the chickens for the tailgates?

Hatfield
8/17/2006, 02:39 PM
how do right wing crazies reconcile their hatred of the aclu when the aclu is representing/or filing on behalf of christians, rush limbaugh, puppies?

Hatfield
8/17/2006, 02:40 PM
Who would fry the chickens for the tailgates?

col. sanders duh.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:41 PM
Well, I for am sure glad they are trying to find that line by defending child rapists, by trying to destroy the boy scouts, by trying to keep the airports from searching people, by KEEPING the trains and subways from searching people, by rooting out the evil that is Christianity in public (and private now!).

Yes, they do much good.

With friends like the ACLU, we really don't need anymore enemies.

Don't forget the Fellowship of Christan Athletes. The dirty filthy hippie communist terrorist-loving ACLU supports their right to exist in public schools. Bastages.

Okla-homey
8/17/2006, 02:41 PM
The GWOT is being framed as a war on an idea. The Civil War had a definable goal--the restoration of the South to the US. What is the end game for the GWOT? How will we know it's over so we can get back all the freedoms we're giving up?

When they learn jihaad = death. Til then, we're just scruing around. I admit, its prolly gonna take loss of one of our cities for us to get there as a people, but I believe that day will surely arrive.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:44 PM
Who would fry the chickens for the tailgates?

We need to sit down and figure this out over a few beers. There seem to be a few kinks in my plan but nothing a few beers couldn't work out.

SoonerInKCMO
8/17/2006, 02:44 PM
I believe the two groups are starkly identifiable. People who believe in the notion of secular governments and free societies...and everyone else.

But without the stylin' blue and gray uniforms it's hard to tell who's who at a glance.

Hatfield
8/17/2006, 02:44 PM
But without the stylin' blue and gray uniforms it's hard to tell who's who at a glance.


everybody knows anyone can be who's who these days

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:46 PM
how do right wing crazies reconcile their hatred of the aclu when the aclu is representing/or filing on behalf of christians, rush limbaugh, puppies?

Even hitler gave candy to kids on occasion.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 02:47 PM
When they learn jihaad = death.

But most of them welcome death. How do you deter somebody that's not afraid to die? It seems like we have to threaten their wimminfolk and children--in short, be like them.

NormanPride
8/17/2006, 02:49 PM
Even hitler gave candy to kids on occasion.

Heh. The obligatory Hitler comparison.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 02:50 PM
i see the musical instrument of logic referring to the essploding plane plot yesterday and wish to clarify that "chatter" didn't foil this plot.

a tip did.

from a human...

a muslim human.

The tip happened more than a year ago. The real intel came from various sources, of which according to the AP was wiretapping and human intel. Thats why the arrests happened when they did.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 02:51 PM
so this 'chatter' was different than the other 'chatter' you have been yapping about. gotcha.

yermom
8/17/2006, 02:53 PM
But most of them welcome death. How do you deter somebody that's not afraid to die? It seems like we have to threaten their wimminfolk and children--in short, be like them.

they need more McDonald's and Starbucks

how many people from UAE, for example, are terrorists?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
8/17/2006, 03:02 PM
I didn't write the Constitution but I sure as hell like living under it's provisions. You don't?

Are you advocating a dictatorship style of government be put in it's place? You are aren't you?You guys really don't think we're in a war, do you?

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2006, 03:03 PM
You guys really don't think we're in a war, do you?
what does the Constitution say about our Civil Liberties during times of war?

Thanks for playing Bill.

Tell him what he won, Johnny.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 03:04 PM
they need more McDonald's and Starbucks

how many people from UAE, for example, are terrorists?

How many people are from UAE period?

I'd like to see something that shows the per capita durka durka population by country so we can figure out what the countries with low numbers have in common. I think the neo-cons are wrong that getting rid of the dictatorships in the Middle East will get rid of the problem. It seems like secular authoritarianism is the only thing kipping the lid on over there. It's the democratic governments (the Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, Iran, Syria?) that are giving us the most problems right now. Turkey is more or less a democracy, but they have a very strong secular government and lots of European sensibilities.

Gandalf_The_Grey
8/17/2006, 03:04 PM
Technically we have been at war our whole history...we had the cold war for like 50 years..then the war on drugs...then the war on the balkans...and now terror!!

bri
8/17/2006, 03:10 PM
Heh. The obligatory Hitler comparison.

yeah, and it took him almost four whole pages. Dude's off his game.

Gandalf_The_Grey
8/17/2006, 03:11 PM
yeah, and it took him almost four whole pages. Dude's off his game.


Shouldn't you be at a youth rally or burning crosses....Hitler Lover!!!

yermom
8/17/2006, 03:12 PM
How many people are from UAE period?

I'd like to see something that shows the per capita durka durka population by country so we can figure out what the countries with low numbers have in common. I think the neo-cons are wrong that getting rid of the dictatorships in the Middle East will get rid of the problem. It seems like secular authoritarianism is the only thing kipping the lid on over there. It's the democratic governments (the Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, Iran, Syria?) that are giving us the most problems right now. Turkey is more or less a democracy, but they have a very strong secular government and lots of European sensibilities.

well, they are too busy building indoor ski parks and 7 star resorts to worry about bombing people ;)

it's the poor Arabs with nothing that are easily led into being Jihadis

NormanPride
8/17/2006, 03:13 PM
yeah, and it took him almost four whole pages. Dude's off his game.

Well, to be fair I wasn't implying that just Tuba does this. I'm just impressed it took SOMEONE this long. We're making progress, people!

Gandalf_The_Grey
8/17/2006, 03:15 PM
To be fair...it is usually Tuba, and he even usually adds a picture so those people who know what Hitler looks like but don't know his name...know who he is talking about. Plus I am disappointed that no pictures of 9/11 yet either with "I guess you want this to happen again!!"

bri
8/17/2006, 03:21 PM
Plus I am disappointed that no pictures of 9/11 yet either with "I guess you want this to happen again!!"

He's getting around to it, dude. Google image search must be slow today. :D

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 03:23 PM
it's the poor Arabs with nothing that are easily led into being Jihadis

Mohammed Atta came from a moderate middle class family and was living in Germany. Another 9/11 pilot was from Lebanon (pretty westernized by regional standards) and left behind a fiance. Neither of them were poor, or uneducated, or raised in durka durka households. What made them snap? The idea that poverty and ignorance breeds hatred seems logical, but how accurate is it?

Gandalf_The_Grey
8/17/2006, 03:30 PM
Mohammed Atta came from a moderate middle class family and was living in Germany. Another 9/11 pilot was from Lebanon (pretty westernized by regional standards) and left behind a fiance. Neither of them were poor, or uneducated, or raised in durka durka households. What made them snap? The idea that poverty and ignorance breeds hatred seems logical, but how accurate is it?


Allright...allright...you win...let's kill them all!!

yermom
8/17/2006, 03:34 PM
Mohammed Atta came from a moderate middle class family and was living in Germany. Another 9/11 pilot was from Lebanon (pretty westernized by regional standards) and left behind a fiance. Neither of them were poor, or uneducated, or raised in durka durka households. What made them snap? The idea that poverty and ignorance breeds hatred seems logical, but how accurate is it?

probably just my weak consumerist mind ;)

but still it seems like in general these are the types blowing up cafes are whatever

i'm sure there are exceptions, like OBL who took offense to something that involved the US

unfortunately OBL just gets other people to do this crap instead of blowing himself up

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 03:38 PM
To be fair...it is usually Tuba, and he even usually adds a picture so those people who know what Hitler looks like but don't know his name...know who he is talking about. Plus I am disappointed that no pictures of 9/11 yet either with "I guess you want this to happen again!!"

Actually, I've never posted a picture of just Hitler that I know of. Its probably a picture of some diversity loving lib calling Bush, our Troops, or Jews Hitler/Nazi like that I posted.

NormanPride
8/17/2006, 03:39 PM
In the US we have emo kids that cut themselves. Over there they have jihaadis. ;)

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 03:40 PM
so this 'chatter' was different than the other 'chatter' you have been yapping about. gotcha.

You must be getting confused again. Seems to be a chronic problem. :D

Gandalf_The_Grey
8/17/2006, 03:40 PM
Well Cindy Sheehan said his full name is George Herbert Walker Bushhitler...and who am I to argue with such an awesome women!!

Gandalf_The_Grey
8/17/2006, 03:44 PM
http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush%20art/Bush_hitler_idiot.gif

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 03:46 PM
It's the democratic governments (the Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, Iran, Syria?) that are giving us the most problems right now.

Wow.

To say that Iran and Syria are democratic governments is flat insane, and wrong. I nearly laughed out loud when I read this.

And, Lebanon and the PA are controlled by armed terrorists group in case you haven't noticed.

Facts might be a good thing to look into.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 03:47 PM
http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush%20art/Bush_hitler_idiot.gif
Heh.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 03:47 PM
http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush%20art/Bush_hitler_idiot.gif

I think that's a fark.

BeetDigger
8/17/2006, 03:53 PM
Is wire tapping illegal to do anytime or is it just illegal to use evidence collected from an illegal wire tap against someone?

For years, we tapped the conversations of foreign nations as part of the military and intelligence agencies. And they no doubt did the same to us. I have to imagine that will all of this survellience going on, our intellegence agencies have listened in on conversations in our country.

Skysooner
8/17/2006, 04:03 PM
We need to sit down and figure this out over a few beers. There seem to be a few kinks in my plan but nothing a few beers couldn't work out.

I thought you weren't allowed to drink beer on location. MWD=no liquor on location, lol. Now catch a ride with the rig hands when they are off duty, and you can get high, drink, etc. on the ride home.

Hatfield
8/17/2006, 04:03 PM
I think that's a fark.


mine's not. ;)

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 04:06 PM
Wow.
To say that Iran and Syria are democratic governments is flat insane, and wrong. I nearly laughed out loud when I read this.


Ol' Mahmoud wasn't elected? Coulda fooled me. Stupid Fox News and their stories about the Iranian "elections" awhile back. Did you notice the "?" after Syria? It's "President" Assad, but I have no idea how the Syrian government works.




And, Lebanon and the PA are controlled by armed terrorists group in case you haven't noticed.


Armed terrorist groups voted into power. Oops! Hezbollah doesn't control a majority of the Lebanese government, although I'm sure Israel gave them a boost in the polls.



Facts might be a good thing to look into.

We keep telling you this. I'm glad you're finally catching on.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 04:07 PM
Is wire tapping illegal to do anytime or is it just illegal to use evidence collected from an illegal wire tap against someone?

For years, we tapped the conversations of foreign nations as part of the military and intelligence agencies. And they no doubt did the same to us. I have to imagine that will all of this survellience going on, our intellegence agencies have listened in on conversations in our country.

Its legal if you get warrant, which is the way it should be.

The problem is what if you get information that sounds important from cell phone converstations or off of listening posts. You don't know where its from and currently they just listen to it and move on.

Now, with this ruling, they have to get a warrent on this stuff, and according to the NSA those sound bites could be in the millions as the computers are the ones crunching this data, so Fisa would have to review possible millions of sound bytes to issue millions of warrants, which isn't really practical.

And this has been ruled on before that the President has the right to do this under Article 2. The ACLU is trying to backdoor this with a very liberal judge saying that this keeps lawyers from doing their jobs.

GrapevineSooner
8/17/2006, 04:10 PM
Hezbollah doesn't control a majority of the Lebanese government, although I'm sure Israel gave them a boost in the polls.

Hezbollah does have enough political influence in Lebanon that prevents the official Lebanese military from even attempting to disarm them.

Which poses a problem, I'd say.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 04:12 PM
Ol' Mahmoud wasn't elected? Coulda fooled me. Stupid Fox News and their stories about the Iranian "elections" awhile back. Did you notice the "?" after Syria? It's "President" Assad, but I have no idea how the Syrian government works.
Saddam got "elected" as well. So did Chavez according to Jimmuah, although none of the people I know in Venezuala know how.

BTW,who elected the SUPREME LEADER of Iran then? You know, the guy with the REAL power? Can you tell me this?

And Syria is a dictatorship, much like Iraq. Same party and everything.



Armed terrorist groups voted into power. Oops! Hezbollah doesn't control a majority of the Lebanese government, although I'm sure Israel gave them a boost in the polls.
Hezbollah isn't the majority party, but its the power, considering the Lebanese can't do **** about them. The PM of Lebanon is a puppet of Syria to boot. OH yeah, Syria isn't a democracy either just in case you missed that little nugget of info.

Also, when one group is armed and it gets "elected", thats not really democracy.

Sorry you can't tell the difference.

mdklatt
8/17/2006, 04:15 PM
Hezbollah does have enough political influence in Lebanon that prevents the official Lebanese military from even attempting to disarm them.

Which poses a problem, I'd say.

My point is, there are plenty of examples of voters in the Middle East electing durka durkas. What makes us think that won't happen anywhere else where democracy is allowed to take hold?

BeetDigger
8/17/2006, 04:16 PM
Its legal if you get warrant, which is the way it should be.

The problem is what if you get information that sounds important from cell phone converstations or off of listening posts. You don't know where its from and currently they just listen to it and move on.

Now, with this ruling, they have to get a warrent on this stuff, and according to the NSA those sound bites could be in the millions as the computers are the ones crunching this data, so Fisa would have to review possible millions of sound bytes to issue millions of warrants, which isn't really practical.

And this has been ruled on before that the President has the right to do this under Article 2. The ACLU is trying to backdoor this with a very liberal judge saying that this keeps lawyers from doing their jobs.


How do we know that our phone conversations aren't being listened to? I know that we for years listened to the phones in other countries.

OklahomaTuba
8/17/2006, 04:28 PM
How do we know that our phone conversations aren't being listened to? I know that we for years listened to the phones in other countries.

I think how it happens is these computer systems are hooked in with the wireless companies looking for voice patterns, names, terms, etc. At least this is my theory.

So if thats true, its probably safe to assume that all cell traffic is being filtered thru this system.

I think the oversight needs to be on what they are searching for, not who. I don't think you can get an overall warrant like this at this time. A massive failure on everyones fault.

Frozen Sooner
8/17/2006, 08:41 PM
why not get a special judge for these cases that will just rubberstamp each and every warrant that they see? It's not difficult to do and you get to follow the rules set forth in the Constitution.

Why not? Can anyone splain that? Please.

They have one. The current administration refuses to use it. They can even wait 24 hours before getting a warrant. The current administration STILL refuses to use it. See, the special court that rubberstamps warrants has denied 4 requests for national security wiretaps in over 25 years. All four of them were denied during the Bush administration because they failed to show anything approaching probably cause. So the current administration refuses to use them.

Vaevictis
8/17/2006, 10:15 PM
The real issue is that the Bush administration finds oversight to be anethma. They don't want to be held accountable for anything they do. They don't want judges to review their evidence for warrants -- even when they are allowed to get them 24 hours after the fact. They don't want Congress to review their actions.

If you're against requiring oversight, you might as well just scrap the Constitution and try something else; oversight is required for our system of government to work. No oversight == no checks and balances.


If not, its evidence which doesn't get in at trial and the perp walks.

This, my friend, is why we have spooks.

OklahomaTuba
8/18/2006, 07:01 AM
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/06.08.17.Amended-X.gif
Sounds about right.

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2006, 08:25 AM
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/06.08.17.Amended-X.gif
Sounds about right.

and the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, don't forget them.

OklahomaTuba
8/18/2006, 08:31 AM
and the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, don't forget them.

You really think FCA members & foreign terrorists are equal?

Interesting.

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2006, 08:33 AM
You really think FCA members & foreign terrorists are equal?

Interesting.


ummmmmmmm no. I was just pointing out the fact that the ACLU has defended the FCA before.

Quit crying.

OklahomaTuba
8/18/2006, 08:38 AM
ummmmmmmm no. I was just pointing out the fact that the ACLU has defended the FCA before.

Quit crying.

They have actually sued the FCA many more times than they have "defended" them.

Besides, defending religious organizations goes against its founding based on Marxism.

Hatfield
8/18/2006, 08:41 AM
and Rush Limbaugh....

OklahomaTuba
8/18/2006, 08:46 AM
And the rights of child rapists to promote said rape...

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2006, 08:57 AM
and the right for a second grader to sing a religous song at school

http://aclu.org/religion/schools/25799prs20060605.html

See Tuba, IMO, the ACLU defends our Civil Liberties according to the Constitution. Sometimes they are on your side and sometimes they are on the other side.

They don't just choose to take cases that only promote one side's agenda.

rebmus
8/18/2006, 09:01 AM
In short, I'm for more actual spies on the ground.

we only need one spy,,, and his name is gary johnston. top... gun... actor.
spottswood has it all figured out and the world will be saved from terrorists!
remember, only a d!ck can eff an azzhole.

JohnnyMack
8/18/2006, 09:52 AM
I would just like to chime in on this thread and say that 1tc is prolly gay. Tuba needs to quit crying and that I love Daylight Donuts.

mdklatt
8/18/2006, 10:00 AM
They don't just choose to take cases that only promote one side's agenda.

That's un-American!

Scott D
8/18/2006, 01:21 PM
Mohammed Atta came from a moderate middle class family and was living in Germany. Another 9/11 pilot was from Lebanon (pretty westernized by regional standards) and left behind a fiance. Neither of them were poor, or uneducated, or raised in durka durka households. What made them snap? The idea that poverty and ignorance breeds hatred seems logical, but how accurate is it?

dig a little deeper about Atta...especially his time in college and I think you'll see where the roots began with him.

Scott D
8/18/2006, 01:23 PM
oh and I have to add that Tuba disappointed me with this thread...on the Tubameter I rate his outrage at a mere 3.6.

OklahomaTuba
8/18/2006, 01:43 PM
Well, I would be more outraged, but this could actually be a good thing. This lawsuit will get dropped cause its so stupid (one day after a huge planned terrorist attack doesn't help) and fails to show any one has been hurt or rights have been violated because of this program.

Also think it could help get the conservative base excited about voting this fall, which would be nice since the dims have decided to let the extreme lunatic leftists take the party over.

Although, it would be comical to see what happens to the dims if they try to impeach Bush for spying on terrorists, while the terrorists are still conducting jihad/war against us.

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2006, 01:48 PM
Does anyone else wish that they lived in Tuba's world?

OklahomaTuba
8/18/2006, 02:12 PM
They don't just choose to take cases that only promote one side's agenda.
Wow, they defended a voluntary after school song?

What noble people they are. No wonder such a huge legal victory made their website for everyone to see. They must love trumpeting the fact they did this. What good people they are.

They sure don't mind forcing schools to cancel Christmas activities or censoring historical figures from schools like Jesus or the foundation of laws that is the 10 commandments.

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2006, 02:14 PM
Why do I find myself having an internet discussion with a 5 year old?

OklahomaTuba
8/18/2006, 02:17 PM
Why do I find myself having an internet discussion with a 5 year old?

Well, we could back to the recruiting thread. Maybe then I could help teach you how to read a chart.

Nah, wouldn't want to waste my time.

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2006, 02:20 PM
Well, we could back to the recruiting thread. Maybe then I could help teach you how to read a chart.

Nah, wouldn't want to waste my time.

You know what? I called that number that was listed on one of the gov't website links and spoke to a man about the recruiting and retention numbers.

I was right but I thought I would be nice enough not to rub your nose in it.

Five. Year. Old. Logic. Haver.

Condescending Sooner
8/18/2006, 03:44 PM
What makes me laugh are people whose entire life consists of posting on a message board, and who have no friends or social life are concerned about the government spying on them. Hello.. the government couldn't give a s**t about your phone calls.

JohnnyMack
8/18/2006, 03:47 PM
dig a little deeper about Atta...especially his time in college and I think you'll see where the roots began with him.

Yup. He was a Red Wings fan. Definitely.

BeetDigger
8/18/2006, 03:50 PM
Yup. He was a Red Wings fan. Definitely.


I hear his closet was full of Yzerman jerseys.

Gandalf_The_Grey
8/18/2006, 06:48 PM
Yup. He was a Red Wings fan. Definitely.

Well being an ******* doesn't make you a terrorist ;)

Hatfield
8/19/2006, 07:29 AM
the government couldn't give a s**t about your phone calls.

which is exactly why they are recording them...

Gandalf_The_Grey
8/19/2006, 09:10 AM
Well not YOUR phone calls...you are obviously either a terrorist or hippie..I don't know what is worse ;)