Outside Opinions Wanted

[Cack]

Some of you may have heard by now, others may not have due to the latest with Bomar. The state of South Carolina (before you click back please read for one moment) is in the middle of a HUGE battle right now. At this moment the state can no longer hold pre or post season NCAA Basketball or Track & Field events, because the Black Coaches Accosiation with the NAACP have complained about the Confederate Flag being flown above the state house. In the recent past the flag has been taken off the top of the state house (where some say it was actually harder to see), and placed on display out front of the state house (which is what they wanted at the time). They changed their mind and said they wanted it off of state property. The state has declined to this point which is why the ban of those events. Now they are going back to the NCAA and asking them to reconsider our ban and making it cover Football and Baseball also.

The Confederate Flag is a harritage symbol. I know a bad organization uses it as their's, but that is not the meaning of the flag, nor is it how the flag is being shown at the state house. My question after all this blabber is just plan and simple. What would ya'll do if you were in South Carolina's shoes. Should we tuck our tails between our legs and let it go and take the flag down, or should we fight for it and let them know we're just as proud of our up bringings as they are theirs and that everything about that flag isn't racist.

As much as I love my sports there is a certain line you don't cross with sports, and that's politics. PETA is trying to do that, and the NAACP also tries to do that. I'm going to stop right there because I'm tired and I know I'm boring some of you. I'm sure some will bash me, but I'm really just curious how people not only outside of our state, but half way across America may feel.

[SoonerInKCMO]

You dumbass crackers need to take the flag down. It's not 'tucking your tails between your legs'; it's joining modern times and doing the right thing.

[royalfan5]

I think you guys should succeed and fire on Fort Sumter. Maybe you could get a new heritage flag out of the deal.

In all, seriousness the Confederate Flag is always going to have a racist/redneck connotation. You call yell heritage all you want but it isn't going to change people's perception of it. If you okay with the majority of the population associating racism and redneck stereotypes with the your State, then by all means keep it. You likely aren't going to change people's perception of the flag, just like people are never going to think of Nebraska as anything besides a backwards farm state, no matter what other stuff we have here.

[12]

Go with God, Amigo.

I wisht I knew more Spanish.

[BudSooner]

Bring it down, yes it's a heritage issue but its also about joining the rest of the country in the 21st century.

[usmc-sooner]

a flag is a flag, keep it. The flag wasn't racist it was just a representation of your state.

People look for things to be offended over.

Can a white coach be in the black coaches association? If not isn't that discrimination. I think it's stupid.

[jdsmith]

who would want to go to South Carolina for a NCAA Tournement?

I say its a no-issue.

[BigRedJed]

I think the Confederate flag can be compared to the Swastika. Before you have a **** fit, read this:

The motifs seems to have first been used in Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) Eurasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia). The swastika is used in religious and civil ceremonies in India. Most Indian temples, entrance of houses, weddings, festivals and celebrations are decorated with swastikas. The symbol was introduced to Southeast Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia) by Hindu kings and remains an integral part of Balinese Hinduism to this day, and it is a common sight in Indonesia. The symbol has an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artifacts from pre-Christian European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European) cultures. It was also adopted independently by several Native American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas) cultures.

In the Western world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world), the symbol experienced a resurgence following the archaeological work in the late nineteenth century of Heinrich Schliemann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann), who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy) and associated it with the ancient migrations of Proto-Indo-Europeans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) ("Aryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan)" people). He connected it with similar shapes found on ancient pots in Germany, and theorised that the swastika was a "significant religious symbol of our remote ancestors," linking ancient German, Greek and Vedic culture.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#_note-0) [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#_note-1) By the early 20th century it was widely used worldwide and was regarded as a symbol of good luck and auspiciousness.

The work of Schliemann soon became intertwined with the völkisch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkisch) movements, for which the swastika was a symbol of "Aryan" identity, a concept that came to be equated by theorists like Alfred Rosenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg) with a Nordic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race) master race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race) originating in northern Europe. Since its adoption by the Nazi Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_German_Workers_Party) of Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler), the swastika has been associated with fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism), racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) (white supremacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy)), World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), and the Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) in much of the West. The swastika remains a core symbol of Neo-Nazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism) groups, and is also regularly used by activist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activism) groups to signify the supposed Nazi-like behaviour of organizations and individuals they oppose.
The swastika was an innocent good luck charm that was co-opted as a symbol of hate by a hate-filled people.

While to some degree I'm sypathetic to the South's cause in the Civil War, mainly the states' rights to self determination, that war ultimately became about slavery, which any reasonable person in the 21st Century will admit was a hideous injustice. You can make the case that the North made it about slavery in a cynical, successful attempt to turn the war in its favor.

But the facts of the matter remain; the South was on the wrong side of the slavery issue. When you add to that the fact that white supremicist groups have claimed the confederate battle flag (there were multiple confederate flags, you know) as a symbol of their brand of hatred, I think that it's time for normal, non-hating people to give up on the idea of that flag being nothing more than a symbol of Southern heritage. It has become much more.

Should the flag be ignored? Nope, it's part of the South's, and America's history, much as the Union Jack and the flags of Spain and France are. But it belongs in a museum, not flown proudly on the roof or lawn of a government institution. Sorry, it has too much baggage.

[mdklatt]

The Confederate Flag is a harritage symbol.

So is a swastika. The Civil War was about "states' rights" all right--the "right" to have have slavery. Not all heritage is good. Strom Thurmond is gone, and it's time to move on.

[SicEmBaylor]

Cack, I support you 200%.

I'm a former national officer in the Children of the Confederacy and my suggestion to you, if you want to get involved, is contact your local chapter of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

[BigRedJed]

So is a swastika. The Civil War was about "states' rights" all right--the "right" to have have slavery. Not all heritage is good. Strom Thurmond is gone, and it's time to move on.
Well, that distills it down a bit too much. The North's hands were hardly clean over the slavery issue.

[SicEmBaylor]

Slavery was the primary symptom of a much larger problem having to due with States' Rights. Saying that the War of Northern Aggression was about slavery is about like saying WWI was all about the assasination of Ferdinand.

[Blue]

Don't F with my harritage.

[KaiserSooner]

I want to say something nasty, but I guess I won't.

Most of what's been said, I agree with: take the damn thing down, put it in a museum.

[KaiserSooner]

the War of Northern Aggression

Oh good God.

:rolleyes:

[Blue]

Oh good God.

:rolleyes:

Watch it, Yankee.





Harritage baby. Harritage.

[usmc-sooner]

slavery became an issue after the war had already begun.

And just about every race has at some time been in slavery.

[Blue]

It's completely redneck. Take it down.

And cut your mullet too, hillbilly.

[SicEmBaylor]

JK,
How so? Really, boil it down for me. How was that comparison the least bit "ignorant."

[usmc-sooner]

And cut your mullet too, hillbilly.

only when they pry it off my cold dead head.

[KaiserSooner]

The motifs seems to have first been used in Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) Eurasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia). The swastika is used in religious and civil ceremonies in India. Most Indian temples, entrance of houses, weddings, festivals and celebrations are decorated with swastikas. The symbol was introduced to Southeast Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia) by Hindu kings and remains an integral part of Balinese Hinduism to this day, and it is a common sight in Indonesia. The symbol has an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artifacts from pre-Christian European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European) cultures. It was also adopted independently by several Native American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas) cultures.

In the Western world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world), the symbol experienced a resurgence following the archaeological work in the late nineteenth century of Heinrich Schliemann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann), who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy) and associated it with the ancient migrations of Proto-Indo-Europeans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) ("Aryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan)" people). He connected it with similar shapes found on ancient pots in Germany, and theorised that the swastika was a "significant religious symbol of our remote ancestors," linking ancient German, Greek and Vedic culture.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#_note-0) [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#_note-1) By the early 20th century it was widely used worldwide and was regarded as a symbol of good luck and auspiciousness.

The work of Schliemann soon became intertwined with the völkisch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkisch) movements, for which the swastika was a symbol of "Aryan" identity, a concept that came to be equated by theorists like Alfred Rosenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg) with a Nordic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race) master race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race) originating in northern Europe. Since its adoption by the Nazi Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_German_Workers_Party) of Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler), the swastika has been associated with fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism), racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) (white supremacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy)), World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), and the Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) in much of the West. The swastika remains a core symbol of Neo-Nazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism) groups, and is also regularly used by activist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activism) groups to signify the supposed Nazi-like behaviour of organizations and individuals they oppose.

This reminds me of a woman I used to work with. She was way into the whole Southwestern/Native Amerian motif...so much so that not only did she decorate her office in it, but she would always (always) wear such jewelry. She often wore these massive turquoise bracelet thingys with the swastika prominently displayed on them, and it really freaked people out. It was really poetic justice anyway because everyone thought she was the spawn of satan. ;)

[jk the sooner fan]

war of "northern agression".......just retarded

i challenge you to read the minutes from the South Carolina state legislature after Lincoln was elected

the CIVIL WAR - you focktard (americans on both sides died, so please keep your disrespect for the dead union soldiers to yourself).....was VERY MUCH about slavery

you can cry "states rights" all you want, but the truth is that the single right those states wanted was to maintain slavery

why was it such an issue with the US Congress on admitting new states to the union - was slavery an issue there? you know it was

so if coming up with a cute name for the civil war makes you feel better about the fact you were on the losing side, then so be it

its ignorant........thats my opinion, if you dont like it, Get a deck of cards, yadda yadda yadda

[Blue]

only when they pry it off my cold dead head.

That's funny...:D


Look, we're all proud to be southerners, but the people that still have that **** on their cars and hanging on a poll in their yard are racist bastards. Maybe not all, but 99% of them.

If you want to display your Harritage, take it down and put up a Little "E" flag.

[badger]

I once wrote a research paper about the swastika when I was in high school (it was my way of getting back at a teacher who was extremely close minded).

The swastika, before it became know as a symbol of Germany's Nazi party, was considered a religious symbol-- a sign of luck. Even a sign of love and respect. However, this once-religious symbol became notorious for something that it did not always stand for --- hate, prejudice, death and war.

The swastika is like the confederate flag. The confederate flag was once the symbol of the South and its desire to lead itself and go its own way. The South took a stand against something it did not agree to (the American government) and broke free, a courageous move. However, today it is perceived by many to be the symbol of the states who supported slavery and racism.

[jk the sooner fan]

sic'em - your comparison wasnt ignorant.....it was the use of the whole "war of northern aggression"

i need to put you on ignore......

[usmc-sooner]

That's funny...:D


Look, we're all proud to be southerners, but the people that still have that **** on their cars and hanging on a poll in their yard are racist bastards. Maybe not all, but 99% of them.

If you want to display your Harritage, take it down and put up a Little "E" flag.

you sumbitch I bet you listen to Neil Young. :texan:

[Blue]

Off topic and I'll keep saying it...Northerners and peeps out west are the most racist people I've come across. They've got like 4 black guys in their entire state and every time they see them they're like, "There he is!"

[Blue]

sic'em - your comparison wasnt ignorant.....it was the use of the whole "war of northern aggression"

i need to put you on ignore......

I bet you have like 800 members on ignore. edit: ...And you can't see this.

[KaiserSooner]

slavery became an issue after the war had already begun.


Oh, it was definitely an issue before the war.

Actually, slavery was an issue from the very beginning of the US as a sovereign state...remember the Three-Fifths Compromise from the Constitutional Convention.

And it grew as a divisive issue as the decades passed: the Missouri Compromise, the Compromise of 1850, John Brown, etc, etc.

[jk the sooner fan]

yes, i remember the conversation i had with the business owner in Anniston, AL

me: "so, hows your football team going to be this year?" (just making small talk)

him: "well, if the coach can figure out how to handle all the ni**ers on the team, they'll be alright"

i could go on and on with stories of blatant racism that i witnessed there......and i could tell you some from when I lived in New Jersey - but NEVER as blatant as what I witnessed on repeated occasions in Bama

sorry if that offends, but thats the truth

[jk the sooner fan]

I bet you have like 800 members on ignore. edit: ...And you can't see this.

i have zero

[Blue]

i have zero

You just blew my mind.

[usmc-sooner]

yes, i remember the conversation i had with the business owner in Anniston, AL

me: "so, hows your football team going to be this year?" (just making small talk)

him: "well, if the coach can figure out how to handle all the ni**ers on the team, they'll be alright"

i could go on and on with stories of blatant racism that i witnessed there......and i could tell you some from when I lived in New Jersey - but NEVER as blatant as what I witnessed on repeated occasions in Bama

sorry if that offends, but thats the truth


but don't you hate messicans :D

[SicEmBaylor]

sic'em - your comparison wasnt ignorant.....it was the use of the whole "war of northern aggression"

i need to put you on ignore......

I think you shoudl do whatever the hell you want. I'm not the one that brought the issue to you; you're the one that negged me for it...I asked why you thought that..and now you want to put me on ignore. What the hell ever.

I've been dealing with people like you my whole damned life. I'm not even given a chance to explain something that's very important to me, that I have respect for, and have never done anything to disrespect anyone else's opposing view other htan to disagree with it.

But whatever you want to do; I don't give a flying ****.

[Blue]

yes, i remember the conversation i had with the business owner in Anniston, AL

me: "so, hows your football team going to be this year?" (just making small talk)

him: "well, if the coach can figure out how to handle all the ni**ers on the team, they'll be alright"

i could go on and on with stories of blatant racism that i witnessed there......and i could tell you some from when I lived in New Jersey - but NEVER as blatant as what I witnessed on repeated occasions in Bama

sorry if that offends, but thats the truth

I don't doubt it. I guess I just avoid those types. Anniston is also "Redneck" heaven. Can you say Talladega?

[jk the sooner fan]

but don't you hate messicans :D

thats a whole lotta hate in a place like texas!

[jk the sooner fan]

I don't doubt it. I guess I just avoid those types. Anniston is also "Redneck" heaven. Can you say Talladega?

hey now, hang on, i had fun at the Talladega infield :)

i dont mean to paint Bama as a total racist state.....its not, but i will say those who tend to believe that way, are much more comfortable in their skin than elsewhere, where the beliefs are held a little more privately....

[SicEmBaylor]

war of "northern agression".......just retarded

i challenge you to read the minutes from the South Carolina state legislature after Lincoln was elected

the CIVIL WAR - you focktard (americans on both sides died, so please keep your disrespect for the dead union soldiers to yourself).....was VERY MUCH about slavery

you can cry "states rights" all you want, but the truth is that the single right those states wanted was to maintain slavery

why was it such an issue with the US Congress on admitting new states to the union - was slavery an issue there? you know it was

so if coming up with a cute name for the civil war makes you feel better about the fact you were on the losing side, then so be it

its ignorant........thats my opinion, if you dont like it, Get a deck of cards, yadda yadda yadda


I have never...ever...disrespected the sacrafice of Union troops and resent the implication that I have. I have participated in countless memorial services with Union historical organizations and when you can claim to have done the same thing then you can criticize or misconstrue something that I have said.

[SicEmBaylor]

I once wrote a research paper about the swastika when I was in high school (it was my way of getting back at a teacher who was extremely close minded).

The swastika, before it became know as a symbol of Germany's Nazi party, was considered a religious symbol-- a sign of luck. Even a sign of love and respect. However, this once-religious symbol became notorious for something that it did not always stand for --- hate, prejudice, death and war.

The swastika is like the confederate flag. The confederate flag was once the symbol of the South and its desire to lead itself and go its own way. The South took a stand against something it did not agree to (the American government) and broke free, a courageous move. However, today it is perceived by many to be the symbol of the states who supported slavery and racism.

The south did not hate the American government. They hated the actions of the American government. If they hated the American government they wouldn't have modeled theirs almost entirely on the US model.

[usmc-sooner]

i could go on and on with stories of blatant racism that i witnessed there......and i could tell you some from when I lived in New Jersey - but NEVER as blatant as what I witnessed on repeated occasions in Bama



just remember a Southern man don't need you around anyhow. :D

[jk the sooner fan]

I have never...ever...disrespected the sacrafice of Union troops and resent the implication that I have. I have participated in countless memorial services with Union historical organizations and when you can claim to have done the same thing then you can criticize or misconstrue something that I have said.

then refer to it properly, ITS THE CIVIL WAR

calling it the war of northern agression makes it seem as if the south were victims

puhleeze....the south seceded, they chose their lot, they fired the first shot..

[badger]

The south did not hate the American government. They hated the actions of the American government. If they hated the American government they wouldn't have modeled theirs almost entirely on the US model.
ehh... you even quoted me saying "did not agree" with the American gov't--- HATE??? never said "hate"

[SicEmBaylor]

The reasoning for calling it the war of northern aggression is that the states organized under the previous union made war on a soverign state by refusing to withdraw its troops from that soverign state thus constituing an act of aggression that led to war.

That's the last time I'm explaining that. Agree with it. Don't agree with it. I no longer care except to the extent that you insult it.

[Blue]

hey now, hang on, i had fun at the Talladega infield :)

i dont mean to paint Bama as a total racist state.....its not, but i will say those who tend to believe that way, are much more comfortable in their skin than elsewhere, where the beliefs are held a little more privately....

Saggy tatties and leftover Mardi-Gras beads. Good Times. :D

And you're exactly right about holding them to themselves. I'm in sales and the minute the ice is broken, the slurs flew. Not everyone, but some. I'm sure I'd find the same in Alabama.

Some people just don't want to change. Hell, my sweet little old grandma in South Georgia who is 90 years old is the most racist person I know. She wouldn't hurt a fly, but she was tought that way, never was around blacks and just flat out doesn't know any better.

So I think we're making progress. Thread be jacked.

[SicEmBaylor]

then refer to it properly, ITS THE CIVIL WAR

calling it the war of northern agression makes it seem as if the south were victims

puhleeze....the south seceded, they chose their lot, they fired the first shot..

If it were a Civil war two factions would have been fighting for control of the same nation. There were two nations each made up of a collection of states making it, at best a "war between the states" and at worst a war of northern aggression.

[SicEmBaylor]

ehh... you even quoted me saying "did not agree" with the American gov't--- HATE??? never said "hate"

You're right. Sorry about that.

[KaiserSooner]

The south did not hate the American government. They hated the actions of the American government. If they hated the American government they wouldn't have modeled theirs almost entirely on the US model.

Right. They simply hated the fact that the US was slowly moving away from the crime of slavery.

[SicEmBaylor]

I resent the implication we have mullets. :P
This is a pic of me years and years ago when I was the Oklahoma Division President and about..an hour after this pic was taken I was elected to National office.

No mullet :P

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/SicEmBaylor/cofc.jpg

[usmc-sooner]

If it were a Civil war two factions would have been fighting for control of the same nation. There were two nations each made up of a collection of states making it, at best a "war between the states" and at worst a war of northern aggression.


you're reaching

[SicEmBaylor]

Right. They simply hated the fact that the US was slowly moving away from the crime of slavery.

They weren't slowly doing it. If they had been slowly doing it there would be a tremendous amount of tension and political infighting but it very well may not have ended up in war.

Personally, I wish to God they'd freed the slaves and then left the Union.
It was a vile and wicked institution.

[Vaevictis]

Slavery was the primary symptom of a much larger problem having to due with States' Rights. Saying that the War of Enforcing the Law On Rebels and Traitors was about slavery is about like saying WWI was all about the assasination of Ferdinand.

Fixed. Not that I always have any particular beef with rebels and traitors; every signatory to the Declaration of Independence was a rebel and a traitor, after all.

But, it was a law enforcement action, plain and simple. The Confederates had no legal authority for their actions. They had no lawful authority to withdraw from the country in the first place. Under the Constitution, it was explicitly unlawful, in fact.

[KaiserSooner]

The reasoning for calling it the war of northern aggression is that the states organized under the previous union made war on a soverign state by refusing to withdraw its troops from that soverign state thus constituing an act of aggression that led to war.


Revisionism at its best.

By the way, the US as a whole is the sovereign state, not the individual American states. Whether in 1860 or 2006, just taking a peak at who maintained/maintains an embassy in foreign capitals tells you all you need to know about what entity is or isn't a sovereign state.

[SicEmBaylor]

Fixed. Not that I always have any particular beef with rebels and traitors; every signatory to the Declaration of Independence was a rebel and a traitor, after all.

But, it was a law enforcement action, plain and simple. The Confederates had no legal authority for their actions.

Really? A large portion of the Federal judiciary at the time disagreed with that.

And, I believe the legal authority rests with the fact that any power not specifically delegated to the Federal government is reserved to the states and the people. Secession is a "power" not granted the Federal government, therefore, it is reserved to the states which exercised that power.

[olevetonahill]

**** them dayumyankees Fly the flag ;)
Anyone want to debate how the Negroes where treated By the North /South
Both sides treated em like **** so STFU :pop:

[Blue]

Hey. Ya'll know what Orientals call their children who are mentally challenged?






Sum Ting Wong. ......Sorry Azian Sooner. :D

[Vaevictis]

Really? A large portion of the Federal judiciary at the time disagreed with that.

And, I believe the legal authority rests with the fact that any power not specifically delegated to the Federal government is reserved to the states and the people. Secession is a "power" not granted the Federal government, therefore, it is reserved to the states which exercised that power.

Meh.


No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

All unlawful actions under the Constitution.



New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

In creating the Confederacy, the States created another separate State without the consent of Congress. Unlawful.

(and lest you say, "But once they withdraw, they're not bound..." well, the act of withdrawing creates another state. Still unlawful.)

[leavingthezoo]

well, when i'm outside i try to keep hydrated, use plenty of sunscreen and look for shade. but that's just my outside opinion. baby oil and burn if you like crispy.

:D

[olevetonahill]

well, when i'm outside i try to keep hydrated, use plenty of sunscreen and look for shade. but that's just my outside opinion. baby oil and burn if you like crispy.

:D
I just stay the **** inside close to the A?C ;)

[leavingthezoo]

I just stay the **** inside close to the A?C ;)

then that would be an inside, close to the ac opinion, now wouldn't it olevet? :D

[yermom]

Meh.



All unlawful actions under the Constitution.



In creating the Confederacy, the States created another separate State without the consent of Congress. Unlawful.

(and lest you say, "But once they withdraw, they're not bound..." well, the act of withdrawing creates another state. Still unlawful.)

Constitutipwn3d

[Blue]

Hello. My name is Sicem, and I'm addicted to Zima.

Bwaaaaahahahahaha!




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/SicEmBaylor/cofc.jpg

;)

[olevetonahill]

Hello. My name is Sicem, and I'm addicted to Zima.

Bwaaaaahahahahaha!



;)
You forgot to say
"And I drive an orange bug " :cool:

[Half a Hundred]

Not that anyone cares what my opinion is, but whenever anyone decides that they do not want to be part of a country anymore, of course the country is going to decide that the action is illegal. The Spanish did it with the Netherlands and Central/South America, the British with their North American colonies, et cetera. While it is undoubtedly true that slavery, and the acceptance of it was a major factor in the launching of the American Civil War (victors write history, unfortunately), the true cause lay between the rapid industrialization of the north, and the agrarian prosperity of the south. As the South was making a ton of money doing what they had done for many years, just better than it had ever been done before in the history of the world, for them to have prohibitive taxes and tariffs placed upon them by the northern states to help fund a centralizing government which went completely against what their exemplary founding father, Thomas Jefferson, believed in, was an intolerable and inexcusable act. While I am glad that the North won the Civil War, I can't help but think some of the effects of it, that is, federal supremacy over states rights and the birth of the modern centralized American state, are unfortunate relics of this terrible time in our nation's history.

Oh, and let them keep the flag up there. If they want to look like horses' asses, that's their prerogative. That's what freedom of speech is all about.

[olevetonahill]

Fixed. Not that I always have any particular beef with rebels and traitors; every signatory to the Declaration of Independence was a rebel and a traitor, after all.

But, it was a law enforcement action, plain and simple. The Confederates had no legal authority for their actions. They had no lawful authority to withdraw from the country in the first place. Under the Constitution, it was explicitly unlawful, in fact.
Dumbest post of the year :P
Take me back in time I want to whoop up on George Washinton. The bastage Broke the law . Oh and I want to stomp on the minutemen :eek:
You say the The rebels and Traitors Of our Freedom where ok ?
Where not the Rebs just trying to do the same ?
You sir are an Idiot !

[Blue]

Dumbest post of the year :P
Take me back in time I want to whoop up on George Washinton. The bastage Broke the law . Oh and I want to stomp on the minutemen :eek:
You say the The rebels and Traitors Of our Freedom where ok ?
Where not the Rebs just trying to do the same ?
You sir are an Idiot !

I think he was saying that...

[olevetonahill]

I think he was saying that...
That hes an idiot ? Or its only Ok for for Our Founding fathers to rebel ? :confused:
If I had lived back then I would have been on the States Rights side
JMHO

[OCUDad]

Easy, vet. Don't let your old a$$ get a stroke when you are actually agreeing with someone.

And admit it, you WERE alive back then. Aren't you one of those guys in the boat with Washington crossing the Delaware? :rolleyes:

[picasso]

This reminds me of a woman I used to work with. She was way into the whole Southwestern/Native Amerian motif...so much so that not only did she decorate her office in it, but she would always (always) wear such jewelry. She often wore these massive turquoise bracelet thingys with the swastika prominently displayed on them, and it really freaked people out. It was really poetic justice anyway because everyone thought she was the spawn of satan. ;)
there's a big old timey ranch house in Osage county we used to live right next to. it had swastikas on the gates and on the side of the house.
it was reversed by Hitler, the indian version was more of a 4 directional type thing.

[etouffee]

The "heritage" argument is complete crap. Since when do people boast their regional heritage? I don't see anyone flying a flag because of their Northern, Eastern, or Western heritage. Further, someone define "southern heritage" for us. Tell us what it is, specifically, about the South's past that you're so incredibly proud of that you need to wear it on your clothes and display it on your trucks and fly it on flags over your government buildings and doublewides.

Sorry, I'm not buying the heritage excuse. And, on the off chance that it IS about being proud of your heritage, answer me this: If it's so important to you to proclaim that you're proud of your heritage, are you so intellectually limited that you can find NO other way to express it other than displaying a symbol that is rarely interpreted the way you (supposedly) intend it, and offends or angers a large number of your fellow citizens? If it's that important to you, just make a damn flag that says "Proud of My Southern Heritage", or commission an artist to come up with a symbol that doesn't stir up so much sh*t.

But then, that's what this is really all about, isn't it? Stirring up sh*t, I mean.

[KaiserSooner]

While I am glad that the North won the Civil War, I can't help but think some of the effects of it, that is, federal supremacy over states rights and the birth of the modern centralized American state, are unfortunate relics of this terrible time in our nation's history.


Yeah, the ability to actually enforce the Constitution and its amendments is a really bad thing, especially when all its provisions apply to all people, regardless of race.

:rolleyes:

[Partial Qualifier]

etouffee, please pardon the spelling smack but it's spelled 'Harritage'

carry on

[mdklatt]

Off topic and I'll keep saying it...Northerners and peeps out west are the most racist people I've come across. They've got like 4 black guys in their entire state and every time they see them they're like, "There he is!"

I notice this when I visit relatives in WI and NY...except that you almost never see black people where they live because the cities are so segregated.

[Hatfield]

why the heck did it take lincoln so long to sign that emancipation proclamation...

[Vaevictis]

Take me back in time I want to whoop up on George Washinton. The bastage Broke the law . Oh and I want to stomp on the minutemen :eek:
You say the The rebels and Traitors Of our Freedom where ok ? Where not the Rebs just trying to do the same ? You sir are an Idiot !

What I am saying is that both the original founders of our country and the Confederates were rebels and traitors to their respective countries.

I am also saying that I don't particularly have a problem with rebels and traitors on those grounds alone -- sometimes rebels and traitors are justified.

Finally, I am saying that neither the Crown's response to the Revolution, nor the North's response to the Succession (alone) were acts of aggression. When a citizen/subject rebels against a lawful government, that government has no other option but to attempt to put down the rebellion. To quietly permit such a thing is to invite further rebellion, and will likely eventually mean the end of the government in question. In short, putting down a rebellion is an act of survival for any government. (how they got control in the first place is another matter...)

(I remain silent on whether or not the Confederates were themselves justified.)

[BeetDigger]

there's a big old timey ranch house in Osage county we used to live right next to. it had swastikas on the gates and on the side of the house.
it was reversed by Hitler, the indian version was more of a 4 directional type thing.


True that. The swastika is prominent on many Native American designs. I have some rugs with the symbol on it. I never thought that people would actually be so ignorant to think that Native American's would side with Hitler. Navaho blankets can be freaking beautiful.

[etouffee]

.Northerners and peeps out west are the most racist people I've come across.I haven't really noticed out west as much, but the Northeast is FAR more racist than the South... at least in my experience there.

[BeetDigger]

Off topic and I'll keep saying it...Northerners and peeps out west are the most racist people I've come across. They've got like 4 black guys in their entire state and every time they see them they're like, "There he is!"


You are on a roll with making blanket statements today.

Futhermore, to use the number of African Amercian's in a state as a proxy for racism is BEYOND laughable.

[mdklatt]

why the heck did it take lincoln so long to sign that emancipation proclamation...

All pubz are racists. :pop:



;)

[picasso]

I'm not siding with Ricky Bobby here but have any of you folks ever been to Gettysburgh? I went there a few years back and was really surprised by the amount of small shrines on each monument supporting the states that fought for the conferderacy.
Especially the line where Pickett led his charge. It was like it had happened yesterday.

[yermom]

ok, i guess i'm not getting this state's rights thing

what rights were they fighting for? of course i mean other than the one about having humans as property

[etouffee]

ok, i guess i'm not getting this state's rights thing

what rights were they fighting for? of course i mean other than the one about having humans as propertyWell, I see somebody skipped history class a time or two. The state's rights issues relevant to the Civil War were, at least at first, primarily centered around the Federal government's imposition of trade tarrifs that benefitted Northern states while seriously hurting the economies of Southern states. The slavery issue didn't come to the forefront until much later.

[jk the sooner fan]

i've got a book on the civil war, it covers every single day of the war with news reports, etc......it begins well before the first shot was fired.....it begins in the chambers of the South Carolina state legislature, just after Lincoln was elected president......and the language of the debates of that day were immediate calls for secession because of the threat to end slavery

southerners can deny it was about slavery all they want

but it was VERY much about slavery......the problem is that the south had created an agrarian economy that depended heavily on slave labor, and i think they felt the infrastructure didnt exist to maintain that economy if all of the sudden that slave labor was ended...

[etouffee]

the tariff issues existed prior to that, jk

[jk the sooner fan]

Well, I see somebody skipped history class a time or two. The state's rights issues relevant to the Civil War were, at least at first, primarily centered around the Federal government's imposition of trade tarrifs that benefitted Northern states while seriously hurting the economies of Southern states. The slavery issue didn't come to the forefront until much later.

why were those tariffs imposed? what was the Federal government trying to accomplish?

[etouffee]

if you're suggesting the tarrifs were imposed as some noble means to try bring about an end slavery, you're very much mistaken. they were simply import tarrifs imposed to increase revenue. it just so happened that the southern states imported more foreign goods than the northern states, so the tarrifs hurt them a lot more. Additionally, there were export tarrifs placed on certain goods, and due to the nature of those goods, southern economies were again hurt more than northern ones. the lopsided nature of these tarrifs came about because northern states had more political influence in Washington, not because someone was trying to end slavery.

[Hatfield]

youve gotta fight

for yer right

to paaarrrtay

[etouffee]

don't get me wrong; I'm not saying slavery wasn't a reason for the war. it definitely was. but it's not true that the war was simply about the north's desire to abolish slavery and the south's desire to keep it, which is how it's frequently portrayed. it went a lot deeper than that.

[jk the sooner fan]

i'm sure it did, and your point on the tariff's are well made......my point is that it wasnt until Lincoln was elected that the southern states (SC specifically) started talking about secession......and if my feeble memory serves correct, there was a misperception about Lincoln's campaign that he would end slavery....although I dont think he really ever espoused that idea....i dont think he ever included abolition in his platform....but the South sure thought he did

[Hatfield]

don't get me wrong; I'm not saying slavery wasn't a reason for the war. it definitely was. but it's not true that the war was simply about the north's desire to abolish slavery and the south's desire to keep it, which is how it's frequently portrayed. it went a lot deeper than that.

which explains why the emacipation proclamation wasn't signed at the beginning of the civil war.

[BeetDigger]

Lincoln had to sneak into DC after he was elected due to the concerns about his life. It was almost as if it wan't a matter of if he would get killed, but when.

[etouffee]

At first, Lincoln didn't advocate the abolition of slavery where it already existed, but did support measures to keep it from being implemented in new Western territories. Southern politicians saw that as a sure sign that eventually he would seek to abolish it everywhere, and started calling for secession.

[Cack]

i created a monster :mack: ... some very good points made ... some of the ignorant ones also that i figured would follow ... thanks guys and gals for all of your opinions ... i agree with most that it should be taken down and put in a museum ... but i just do not like the way they're going about it ... if it was a problem and the state was simply asked to remove it and put it ina museum on display for our history ... i would have no problem ... but a bunch of (edited version) coming in here and trying to take sports away over something that happened before they were even born ... is just stupid

[etouffee]

how can you use the "something that happened before they were even born" argument when you folks keep waving flags that remind everybody about it?

[CORNholio]

In the same way people say the confederate flag evolved to a symbol of hate couldn't it now have evolved into a symbol of southern heritage. Evolution never stops.
IMHO Its their damn state let them do what they want. Oklahoma has an oil well on its capitol. This could be very offensive to all the tree huggers in the area. Most look at it with pride. Same with the conf flag. Northerners look at it as stupid, SCers look at it with pride. To each his own. How about letting people do their own thing "The American Way".

[CORNholio]

And yes the Civil War was about states rights. And yes slavery is wrong but it was not the basis of the war. Go back to school.

[Okla-homey]

Okay, as some of you may know, I know a little about history. I also graduated in 1982 from the Military College of South Carolina (and current punching bag of SEC/ACC schools who need a soft D-1AA opponent).

Anyway, here's my take on this Confederate flag flap. First, its a historic symbol very dear to the hearts of millions of Southerners whose forefathers fought and died under it.

Second, those forefathers, who sacrificed much in so doing, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, fought to perpetuate chattel slavery. If you doubt it or consider this PC revisionism, you need only read the texts of the 11 Confederate states' ordinances of secession. They are widely available on-line. Just "google" ordinance of secession.

That said, had Confederate symbols been revered among Southerners enough to be denied the KKK and other opponents of civil rights legislation and enforcement in the 1950's and 60's, this would not be a debate.

Instead, the opposition forces of the civil rights movement in this country used (and often still use) these Confederate symbols as rallying points. No anti-civil rights rally of the 1950's or 1960's was complete without a bunch of gap-toothed yahoos waving "Rebel flags" and shouting crap like "Lee surrendered, I didn't!"

THAT FACT, more than anything, sullied the Confederate symbols and burned them into the consciousness of black folks who now hate these symbols.

Therefore, the Confederate flag should not be displayed prominently on or around public property. Pubic property is supposed to be for everyone and connote the notion of inclusiveness. Confederate symbols are divisive, Therefore, I say remove them from public places except those in which they are displayed strictly in historical contexts like Civil War battlefields or important Civil War sites.

Now, do I think it makes one real bit of difference in the lives of black Americans if these symbols remain up or are relegated to history museums? No, I don't think one black child will receive a better education nor shall black folks have better opportunities to succeed in life whether the flags fly or not. That's the great paradox, issues like this sap energies among people of goodwill who otherwise might be better engaged in improving the lot of the black community.

The problem is, race-baiters on both sides of the issue make a big flippin' deal out of it, inflame passions, and have gotten us to the place we now are.

That's all I have to say about the matter.

[jk the sooner fan]

but homey.....sic'em said it was a war of northern aggression!

[Okla-homey]

but homey.....sic'em said it was a war of northern aggression!

Well then, if that's so, he is ignorant or ignoring the facts. Never let the facts get in the way of a good emotional issue. That's Politics 101.

[GrapevineSooner]

You also need to all take down your Dale Earnhardt and Dale Jr. flags. ;)

[Viking Kitten]

Homey, as usual, I respect your arguments because they are well thought out and articulate.

But since spelling smack has already been introduced into this thread, I'll just take this opportunity to point out what must be the best typo of all time:


Pubic property is supposed to be for everyone...

:P

[Scott D]

this thread makes me chuckle...a bit.

[Okla-homey]

Homey, as usual, I respect your arguments because they are well thought out and articulate.

But since spelling smack has already been introduced into this thread, I'll just take this opportunity to point out what must be the best typo of all time:



:P

:les: BOW CHICKA BOW BOW

[jk the sooner fan]

i spent 2 years at fort knox......one afternoon i had to do an interview up in Louisville (looaahvul).....

so i'm at this business, waiting to talk to the gentleman....and the guy out front has a confederate flag on his desk

i make some comment about it, being from the south, etc etc.....just small talk

he says "where in the south are you from?"

i tell him texas, and he says "thats not the real south".......umm, ok...i'll play his silly game.

so i ask him - "what do you consider the real south?" he tells me "you know, states that fought for the south in the civil war"

lord help the poor boy - so i remind him that texas was a confederate state and then let him know that kentucky was actually a border state in the war.....and that at the national park where Lincoln was born, there's a plaque that says that 30K kentuckians fought for the south and 70K for the north

i swear i thought he wanted to fight me right there.....

[Blue]

You are on a roll with making blanket statements today.

Futhermore, to use the number of African Amercian's in a state as a proxy for racism is BEYOND laughable.

That was a joke.

I was making statements from my own experiences dealing with people in different places. Just my opinion.

[SicEmBaylor]

i spent 2 years at fort knox......one afternoon i had to do an interview up in Louisville (looaahvul).....

so i'm at this business, waiting to talk to the gentleman....and the guy out front has a confederate flag on his desk

i make some comment about it, being from the south, etc etc.....just small talk

he says "where in the south are you from?"

i tell him texas, and he says "thats not the real south".......umm, ok...i'll play his silly game.

so i ask him - "what do you consider the real south?" he tells me "you know, states that fought for the south in the civil war"

lord help the poor boy - so i remind him that texas was a confederate state and then let him know that kentucky was actually a border state in the war.....and that at the national park where Lincoln was born, there's a plaque that says that 30K kentuckians fought for the south and 70K for the north

i swear i thought he wanted to fight me right there.....

Now, there's a real example of a dumbass.

[Miko]

I am indifferent and ambivalent (if not redundant) about the flag.

I do get tired of the notion that all people have a constitutional right never to be offended. Some, should they find something offensive, consider it a civil rights issue.

It bugs the hell out of me and some sort of law should be passed to stop it from bugging the hell out of me. I am going on a hunger strike, dammit.


Does beer count??

[mdklatt]

I do get tired of the notion that all people have a constitutional right never to be offended. Some, should they find something offensive, consider it a civil rights issue.



At this moment the state can no longer hold pre or post season NCAA Basketball or Track & Field events, because the Black Coaches Accosiation with the NAACP have complained about the Confederate Flag being flown above the state house.

Sounds like a business issue to me.