Legal Issues with Investigation:

[Uncle Russ]

What I want to know is this: If OU itself investigated this, (which they clearly did) by what authority could they demand information such as the hours worked by the athletes? I doubt the university has any subpoena power. I suppose that the players' signed agreements with OU may make furnishing of employment information a condition of their scholarships, but I can't see that the dealership would have done anything but stonewall if asked for employees' time records.

Also, isnt' that kind of information private. I would think the student athletes would have a cause of action against the dealership if they released employment records without authorization. Or maybe such authorization on the part of the players is another condition of retaining their scholarships.

But the real question is this: I keep hearing that Quinn and Bomar filled out tax returns that stated their actual income. How would the University or any other institution threatening to turn them in have obtained those records? Do athletes have to turn their tax returns over to the school?

This is really puzzling.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Uhhh, the NCAA and any NCAA dealings are communistic. They can know anything and everything about you and you have no immunity or right to privacy...

[Okla-homey]

snap


What I want to know is this: If OU itself investigated this, (which they clearly did) by what authority could they demand information such as the hours worked by the athletes? I doubt the university has any subpoena power. I suppose that the players' signed agreements with OU may make furnishing of employment information a condition of their scholarships, but I can't see that the dealership would have done anything but stonewall if asked for employees' time records.

They probably asked the kids themselves to submit the data to the university under the terms of their scholarship agreement and the kids have a right to get that information from their employer

Also, isnt' that kind of information private. I would think the student athletes would have a cause of action against the dealership if they released employment records without authorization. Or maybe such authorization on the part of the players is another condition of retaining their scholarships. BINGO!

But the real question is this: I keep hearing that Quinn and Bomar filled out tax returns that stated their actual income. How would the University or any other institution threatening to turn them in have obtained those records? Do athletes have to turn their tax returns over to the school? See first response above

This is really puzzling.

[jk the sooner fan]

i'm pretty sure since the university is paying for their education......they have some stipulations that go along with that

its really not that difficult to comprehend

people quit making excuses or looking for damn loopholes......he was wrong, period, end of story. he's gone........lets move on.

[Uncle Russ]

You know, HumanAlphabet, as a lifelong Longhorn, I am sworn to be the friendly enemy of every Sooner on the planet, but as an lifelong resident of the People's Republic of Austin, it sure is a breath of fresh air to come over to this board and see the kind of values espoused, not only by your signature line, but others among the posters here. I don't think John Kerry or Ted Kennedy should ever drive through Oklahoma!

Russ

[Okla-homey]

You know, HumanAlphabet, as a lifelong Longhorn, I am sworn to be the friendly enemy of every Sooner on the planet, but as an lifelong resident of the People's Republic of Austin, it sure is a breath of fresh air to come over to this board and see the kind of values espoused, not only by your signature line, but others among the posters here. I don't think John Kerry or Ted Kennedy should ever drive through Oklahoma!

Russ

You know Russ, you have a constitutional right to travel. You can pull up stakes and leave that pestilential hellhole of buggerers and sodomites and breathe the clear air of a place where things like priniciples and honor are valued more highly.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Thanks, I think...can't tell if that is an agreement or a back-handed compliment. The two politicians you mentioned would know enough not to visit Oklahoma on a campaign visit. Even the dems there are conservative.

But the NCAA crack is more in line with what Bosworth said and how OU was treated by the NCAA. But in reality, the NCAA has super legal powers and by extension, the member University...to which, the NCAA applies in different manners based on what they think of you or if they are mad at you - as in OU's case and suing the NCAA and breaking up their TV monopoly...

[Uncle Russ]

Thanks, homey.

jk: Not trying in any way to make excuses or look for loopholes. I really have always been curious about such things. Personally, I don't think any school should look for loopholes to excuse illegal or improper behavior on the part of student athletes--whether it is alleged rule-violators like your Bomar or alleged dope-peddlars like our Ramonce Taylor. Same should apply to Reggie Bush...Oh, wait...

Russ

[Tear Down This Wall]

You guys are losing your minds. The University of Oklahoma is voluntarily part of an organization called the National Collegiate Athletics Association. In order to be a member, it must agree to abide the the by-laws of that organization.

The NCAA has specific guideline about the relationship between boosters and universities. It also lays out guidelines for student athletes working. The University of Oklahoma knows of these guideline, accepts these guidelines, and informs its student athletes of these guidelines.

Rhett Bomar and J.D. Quinn, along with the booster-employer, skirted those guidelines and got caught. It's that simple. There's a whole body of law on this type of stuff called, approriately enough, Association Law. Country clubs, homeowners associations, amateur athletic outfits, etc. all fall under the aegis of Association Law.

End of story...unless OU wants to quit the NCAA and try to start its own amateur athletic association where players are paid by boosters. Unlikely. So, just move along, there's nothing to see here.

[caphorns]

You know Russ, you have a constitutional right to travel. You can pull up stakes and leave that pestilential hellhole of buggerers and sodomites and breathe the clear air of a place where things like priniciples and honor are valued more highly.

Envy and irony . . . side by side . . . crap . . . my keyboard . . . oh lord . . . ;)

[Uncle Russ]

homey: agreement all the way, I assure you. No backhand intended.

Wall: Of course I understand about all schools' obligations regarding NCAA rules--only questions had to do with exactly how they get information from outside sources and the athletes themselves. I think Okla-homey probably was right on.

homey: Thanks for the invite but not a chance. Actually, I love Austin in spite of the political atmosphere. Besides, I wouldn't know how to travel south to get to Dallas--I'd probably end up in Nebraska once a year. Don't you know the only reason for Oklahoma's existence is to prevent Arkansas from invading western Colorado? (don't know how to make a smiley face.)

[TexasLidig8r]

You know, HumanAlphabet, as a lifelong Longhorn, I am sworn to be the friendly enemy of every Sooner on the planet, but as an lifelong resident of the People's Republic of Austin, it sure is a breath of fresh air to come over to this board and see the kind of values espoused, not only by your signature line, but others among the posters here. I don't think John Kerry or Ted Kennedy should ever drive through Oklahoma!

Russ

Damned Horn.. someone(s) negspek the ever livin' bejeesus out of him! IT's a TRAP !

[Uncle Russ]

Actually, Lidig: you have the luxury of living in Dallas. God help you if you are liberal there.

[Dio]

Damned Horn.. someone(s) negspek the ever livin' bejeesus out of him! IT's a TRAP !

done

[GreenSooner]

Not all of us Sooners are wingnuts, Uncle Russ (some of us actually long for the political atmosphere of Austin, if we could somehow get rid of all the burnt orange...)

As for this description of the NCAA

They can know anything and everything about you and you have no immunity or right to privacy... That sounds more like the current administration in Washington than the NCAA, which is at least a) voluntary, and b) open about what they want to know about you.

[RedstickSooner]

Actually, I think the underlying question is valid, if anyone knows the answer -- how do universities advance these sorts of investigations? They aren't law enforcement agencies, hence, wouldn't have some of the same sorts of investigative power (and even if they did, they'd have to go to court to get subpoenas & search warrants, etc.)

The reason I ask is this: I'm proud that OU found out and kicked out the guilty kids -- but if the booster in question had stonewalled, how would the university be able to find this stuff out? I wuold assume they'd have access to tax return info -- but only in the context of (needs based) scholarship verification. Football scholarships aren't needs based, but do they still entitle a university to the same level of financial disclosure?

This is a process that might be interesting to know more about. Or, it might turn out to be one of those mundane, nothing-but-dull-paperwork-and-a-few-snitches sort of thing :)

[TexasLidig8r]

Actually, Lidig: you have the luxury of living in Dallas. God help you if you are liberal there.

lol.. God help me and my bank account if I turned into a liberal!

[Uncle Russ]

Redstick: I suspect that the previous poster was correct that the info came from the players as a result of their agreements with the University--kind of like a condition of employment in the work place. Here is how it works in the Federal government: If I am conducting an investigation of one of my employees for an alleged violation of law (I realize no law was broken in the players' case) I have to tell them: "You have a duty to comply with this investigation and you have a right to be represented. You have the right to remain silent (etc. etc. just like the Miranda warnings...) However, if you choose to exercise your rights, you may be disciplined, up to and including removal." Not the exact words, but close.

So in the case of scholarship players, the analogy would be pretty close: "You don't have to cooperate, but if you don't, you lose your scholarship and are kicked off the team."

I don't necessarily buy that Stoops was being noble as opposed to pragmatic--and I would be just as skeptical of any other coach--including Barnes or Brown. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if he was actually taking the high road. After all, he has never struck me as an old softy.

But what is puzzling is this: Since the University gave whole team a clean bill of health back when AD was investigated (at least I think that was the case), then you have to think that either they hid the ball and someone pointed the finger more recently OR, more likely, new facts popped up that they could not ignore.

lidig: What the hell does "negspek" mean?????

Russ

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Not all of us Sooners are principled and/or conservative, Uncle Russ (some of us actually long for the political atmosphere of Austin, if we could somehow get rid of all the burnt orange...)

Fixed. Uncle Russ, here is a candidate for whorndom. keep workin' on him, and he'll join you in gayston.:pop:

[soonerlaw]

Actually, Lidig: you have the luxury of living in Dallas. God help you if you are liberal there.

Well unless you live on the M streets...

[sshusker]

What I heard today on the radio is that the new management at Big Red contacted the University concerning problems that they found. That is when the University got involved.

[Uncle Russ]

GreenSooner: Actually, I don't like either party very much. I keep thinking that if Kennedy really wants to shut down the Bush/Cheney oil cartel, he will support wind farms in the Atlantic within view of his private beach, but oh, well...

william: I'm surprised you guys haven't run poor old GreenSooner all the way into Boulder!

As for all you lawyers, I tried it for about 5 years here in Austin and got tired of high-level traffic ticket defense. At least in Oklahoma you still have a little oil to fight over.

So again: what is "negspek?"

[sshusker]

Just heard on the radio from the new owner at Big Red, that it was the University that initiated the investigation and that they (Big Red) turned over all requested documents. This was to correct what was reported on this same station earlier today.

[GreenSooner]

Uncle Russ: I don't like either major party much, either (that's why I'm a registered Independent). FWIW, I do like the windfarms sprouting up all over the place in Oklahoma. Clean energy...and the company that makes a lot of the equipment is based in Norman.

[proudsoonergal]

Russ - red and orange spots under your name are negspek. Green are speks. It is a way of showing approval or disapproval. Check out your User CP to see it.