Lack of black head coaches

[MI Sooner]

Lots of people argue that qualified black candidates aren't given the number head coaching jobs they deserve. If this were true, wouldn't you expect that the black coaches who do get head coaching jobs would have above average success? This assumes 1) those black coaches who have gotten the jobs have been correctly identified by the ADs as the best of the qualified candidates, and 2) the coaches aren't undermined after being hired due to alumni resentment or some other factor that white coaches aren't subject to.

I wonder what a review of the data would show. Anecdotes from my limited memory...

John Blake (dismal failure at great football school)
Bob Simmons (failed, but, hey, it's OSU)
Bobby Williams (total washout)
Ty Willingham (mixed bag, I'd argue he underperforms)
UCLA guy (good so far)
Dennis Green (very good coach)
Sly Croom (no success yet)

This doesn't look like above average success to me.

If my assumptions and my memory are accurate, might it be the case that ADs aren't overlooking qualified candidates, but something else accounts for the low number of black head coaches? My assumptions and memory could be wrong or incomplete, and please let me know if they are.

[HarrisTubbsFan]

Bob Simmons would be better defined as started good but faded away. He went to the Alamo Bowl in 97 or 98. Also he recruited almost the entire team that beat us in 2001 and 2002.

Dorrell has had 1 really good year so far.

[soonerinabilene]

blake pretty much ruined it for everybody.

[Sooner Naturalized]

There are thousands of qualified black coaches from all ranks. Almost every team has more than one black assistant coaches. When you have less than 10 people who are black coaches, you have less chances for success. I think it's a joke that out of 117 DI-A, there's less than 7 black coaches. How many white head coaches have failed at the pro and college level? Many, but they'll still be hired. The pro level have done a good job (NBA, NFL) with hiring black coaches. The hiring process has a lot to do with politics and boosters. When school regents and administration became more diverse, instead of being more than 90% white, then you'll see more black coaches...Or wait for the old generation to die out or retire, then you'll see more black coaches.

[MI Sooner]

I agree that many white coaches who haven't had a lot of success get recycled. This seems to happen more in the pros than in college, but that's just my impression, I don't have any evidence to support it.

I'll provide an analogy in an attempt to clarify my earlier post.

Students at an all black high school in Oklahoma weren't admitted to OU, despite the fact that they argued they had scores of qualified students graduating every year. Then, OU changes its policy and decides it will accept ten students from this high school. Presumably, OU would admit the 10 most highly-qualified candidates. Wouldn't you expect these students to be above average at OU? They're the best candidates from a larger pool of qualified candidates. If they're only average, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have been admitted. But if they're well below average, it either means, 1) the students who hadn't been admitted previously probably weren't qualified, or 2) the students eventually admitted weren't among the most qualified students at the school, or 3) something affected their success at OU that didn't affect the other students. I've said that two and three are possible, but it seems like if they aren't true, then the school wasn't discriminating against black students, just students that weren't qualified.

Also, may well be that the average black head coach has performed better than the average coach, which is what said I said I expected to see if they had been unfairly denied jobs in the past. Jackie Robinson was far better than the average baseball player. IIR, most of the first black generation of black quarterbacks in the NFL were above average. Too me, this is evidence that they (black baseball players/quarterbacks) were discriminated against in the past.

[Scott D]

yeah, Eddie Robinson was a crappy coach :rolleyes:

[OUster]

At least the blacks have something to groan about. I am still waitng for the first Latino head coach. Oops, forgot about Rodriguez from West Virginny. Although, I think he is as Latino as Geraldo Rivera. Anyhow, at this point "Go Mountaineers!" They are my second...fourth...favorite team now. I may be a nice shade of cinnamon on the outside, but Crimson blood pumps through my veins.

[Readyfor8]

Lots of people argue that qualified black candidates aren't given the number head coaching jobs they deserve. If this were true, wouldn't you expect that the black coaches who do get head coaching jobs would have above average success? This assumes 1) those black coaches who have gotten the jobs have been correctly identified by the ADs as the best of the qualified candidates, and 2) the coaches aren't undermined after being hired due to alumni resentment or some other factor that white coaches aren't subject to.

I wonder what a review of the data would show. Anecdotes from my limited memory...

John Blake (dismal failure at great football school)
Bob Simmons (failed, but, hey, it's OSU)
Bobby Williams (total washout)
Ty Willingham (mixed bag, I'd argue he underperforms)
UCLA guy (good so far)
Dennis Green (very good coach)
Sly Croom (no success yet)

This doesn't look like above average success to me.

If my assumptions and my memory are accurate, might it be the case that ADs aren't overlooking qualified candidates, but something else accounts for the low number of black head coaches? My assumptions and memory could be wrong or incomplete, and please let me know if they are.

Wait a second, your saying that Black people dont make good coaches because statistically they have underperformed right? Do you think that by listing 7 Black Head Coaches that you have gained an accurate cross section of coaching talent.

Not only are your numbers skewed by the pathetically small sample you have chosen, but also you haven't accuratly represented your numbers. By your numbers 1 (Dennis Green) in 7 is a very good Head Coach. How many White Coaches are good head coaches compared to who has tried to be a head coach? By OU's numbers alone, we have had 22 Head Coaches I believe and only 3 of those are considered "Great." Thats less than a 7 to 1 ratio at one of the best universities college football has seen in the last 65.

Basically, your arguement is mathmatically flawed. Black Coaches haven't had their start. The biggest beef is this, there are a considerable ammount of black assistant coaches at all levels of football, black athletes are also currently the majority in college and pro football. The vast majority of coaches started in one of these two area's, either as a player or as an assistant. The problem is that very few have gone above assistant coaching positions, and very few get looks to go up to coordinator positions and that disparity is not mathmatically or culturally based.

In short we should look closer at who is getting promoted and why.

[cahusker]

I think the reason that there are more white coaches is two fold. I would guess the average age for a head coach is about 50. So a guy who is 50 now was in college about 1976. The vast amount of players then were white. Secondly in my personal opinion I do not think as many black players strive to be coaches. Most only have the dream of making it to the "league". In my opinion more white guys because of their lesser athletic abilty become students of the game to make a living at a game they love.
Don't brand me as a racist because I am not. I always wanted Turner Gill to become our head coach one day and I still feel that way.

[CORNholio]

I think the reason that there are more white coaches is two fold. I would guess the average age for a head coach is about 50. So a guy who is 50 now was in college about 1976. The vast amount of players then were white. Secondly in my personal opinion I do not think as many black players strive to be coaches. Most only have the dream of making it to the "league". In my opinion more white guys because of their lesser athletic abilty become students of the game to make a living at a game they love.
Don't brand me as a racist because I am not. I always wanted Turner Gill to become our head coach one day and I still feel that way.

yeah, white people are so unatheletic. (Joe Montana, John Elway, Jason White)

Good point.

[badger]

I think people regardless of race can become good coaches, it just depends on the person. Coach Norm Chow(who is now with the Titans) isn't black or white-- he's Hawaiian.

[Scott D]

I think people regardless of race can become good coaches, it just depends on the person. Coach Norm Chow(who is now with the Titans) isn't black or white-- he's Hawaiian.

it's not about if someone can become a good coach, it's about hiring practices that 80% of the time lead to teams hiring retreads over 'unproven' talent. How many times has Dennis Erickson been a head coach in college? How many times has he left and failed elsewhere? John Robinson coached USC not once, but twice. Conversely, Randy Shannon is considered one of the top young defensive minds in all of college football. His name has been mentioned maybe once or twice as a possible head coach.

As painful as it is for me to say, I honestly hope that Ron Prince leads K-State to win the north, if not finish a high second. I hope that Doug Williams does well with Grambling every year. Other than against us, I'd like Ty Willingham to pull another trick like he did with Stanford that got him the ND job in the first place.

The biggest crock probably has to be how many head coaching jobs that Lou Holtz has held with his checkered past, especially in comparison with untried individuals. But, on the other hand....names sell tickets.

[goingoneight]

I don't know why this is an issue. Do you think they aren't smart enough? Be honest... is it racism? I think the quality guy for the job can be black, white, mexican or whatever other breed we humans breed.

The same can be said by black folks about white people playing running back. So what if there's not a big timer in darker skin? Aren't we all the same?

[goingoneight]

I think people regardless of race can become good coaches, it just depends on the person. Coach Norm Chow(who is now with the Titans) isn't black or white-- he's Hawaiian.

Vince Young. Well at least we know he's a gambler!

[goingoneight]

yeah, white people are so unatheletic. (Joe Montana, John Elway, Jason White)

Good point.

I missed the part where Troy Aikman joined the NAACP.

[rr2]

How about Hispanic and Asian coaches? How about white running backs?

[badger]

Remember when Rush Limbaugh resigned from ESPN because he said the media was desperate for a black quarterback to succeed, which was why Donovan McNabb was overhyped?

Are people desperate for a black coach to succeed?

On a side note, when Ray Rhodes was head coach of the Packers, we were very sad fans. However, he was a very good assistant, as was Sherm Lewis.

Some people are just better suited at different levels. Pete Caroll sucked with the Patriots and won a championship (NOT championships) with USC. John Blake had losing seasons as a head coach, but he is a good recruiter and players apparently like him.

I just think colleges, teams, etc. are reluctant to give unproven talent a chance. You're not going to hire Barry Sanders as head coach of OSU just because he's an alum and he was a great player (although it would be funny if they did). Many college basketball coaches (very diverse field there) are former college players and assistants-- that translates to more opportunities.

So, I gave you about five arguments there, but my opinion remains unchanged: Norm Chow is indeed Hawaiian.

[MI Sooner]

Readyfor8,

I never said black people don't make good coaches. I was questioning whether the lack of black head coaches was due to discrimination or something else (such as fewer black people entering low level coaching positions). Are people assume discrimination is the reason that women don't constitute 50% of CBF head coaches. I also said that I haven't seen an analysis of the data that would support or reject my conjecture. I don't think I made the claim that the list of seven black head coaches I listed off the top of my head was a statistical analysis. You made the claim that there are a lot of black assistants at all levels. I have heard numerous others make the opposite claim, but I don't know which is correct. If you could provide I link to some data, that'd be great.

To all those who are providing counter-examples (like Eddie Robinson is a good coach, or John Elway is a good athlete)...

These are great counter-arguments to someone making the claims 1) blacks never make good coaches, or 2) whites are never good athletes. I was proposing someone test the hypothesis, "Blacks are head coaches at the same rate as whites when qualifications are controlled for." If this isn't true, and blacks are discriminated against, it seems logical (but not 100% certain) that only super-duper qualified blacks get head coaching jobs. If that's the case, wouldn't you expect that they would out-perform white coaches, on average?

I'd be interested in hearing, from someone who has first-hand knowledge and isn't just speculating, the common career path(s) for being the head coach of a college football team. It seems like the stereotypical story is Standout Player with tremendous passion for game and work ethic ends playing days before making fortune in the NFL. Forme Standout Player still loves the game and doesn't mind taking demanding entry level coaching job for little pay (I'd say screw that, I can make more money stocking shelves at Albertsons). Player eventually works his way through jobs with increasing resposibility at bigger schools until he gets a head coaching job at a bad-to-middling program. There's no inherent reason I can think of why blacks, whites, Asians, Hispanics, or anyone else couldn't fit that profile. There may be other (non-inherent) reasons. I just think that those that assume it's racism are jumping the gun.

[MamaMia]

There are no any female coaches at all. :mad:

[usmc-sooner]

there aint a whole lot of white rappers either.

[SouthFortySooner]

I know the fact of there only being 12.9% of black Americans could have anything at all to do with it.

[badger]

There are no any female coaches at all. :mad:
think she'll ever coach d1?
http://www.now.org/organization/conference/2005/KatieHnida.jpg

[Big Red Ron]

I have no problem with over time the numbers pointing to the fact that in general the best;

QB's - are white guys
RB's - are black guys
WR/DB - are black guys
Coaches - are white guys
Agents - are Jewish

:D

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

think she'll ever coach d1?
http://www.now.org/organization/conference/2005/KatieHnida.jpg

"It's not that she is girl....she is just hideous...she can't coach!" ;)

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I have no problem with over time the numbers pointing to the fact that in general the best;

QB's - are white guys
RB's - are black guys
WR/DB - are black guys
Coaches - are white guys
Agents - are Jewish
horns - are gay

:D

fixed it for you ;)

[Big Red Ron]

fixed it for you ;)You are correct sir. My appologies.:texan:

[Big Red Ron]

think she'll ever coach d1?
http://www.now.org/organization/conference/2005/KatieHnida.jpgI dunno, I'd give her the ol' D1.

:pop:

[badger]

I dunno, I'd give her the ol' D1.

:pop:
who's your daddy?
http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/viihde/leffasivujen_kuvat/25158.jpg

[Jason White's Third Knee]

Wait a second, your saying that Black people dont make good coaches because statistically they have underperformed right? Do you think that by listing 7 Black Head Coaches that you have gained an accurate cross section of coaching talent.

Not only are your numbers skewed by the pathetically small sample you have chosen, but also you haven't accuratly represented your numbers. By your numbers 1 (Dennis Green) in 7 is a very good Head Coach. How many White Coaches are good head coaches compared to who has tried to be a head coach? By OU's numbers alone, we have had 22 Head Coaches I believe and only 3 of those are considered "Great." Thats less than a 7 to 1 ratio at one of the best universities college football has seen in the last 65.

Basically, your arguement is mathmatically flawed. Black Coaches haven't had their start. The biggest beef is this, there are a considerable ammount of black assistant coaches at all levels of football, black athletes are also currently the majority in college and pro football. The vast majority of coaches started in one of these two area's, either as a player or as an assistant. The problem is that very few have gone above assistant coaching positions, and very few get looks to go up to coordinator positions and that disparity is not mathmatically or culturally based.

In short we should look closer at who is getting promoted and why.


You and your cross sections. Jeezuz.

This is the way I see it and it makes sense. Football has been around for a little over 100 years. Typically, a head coach (and a qb for that matter) is the son of a... ANYONE? Right. A coach. It more than a good ol' boy system. People are bred in to coaching.

Black folks have been playing this sport for about 50 years. That cripples them already. Add to that the relatively short span of civil rights, many couldn't get in to college. Many athletes that DO get in are hell bent on playing pro and academics are of little concern. This IS a CULTURAL problem. So you have few blacks passing the torch from father to son, fewer blacks going to college, fewer still graduating...

How in the hell are we supposed to hire all of these damned black coaches when they haven't had the generational support that white's have had? The pool is SMALL folks.

You need a black guy that really studies the game (coach's son or qb), has graduated, is a great leader, media savvy, articulate, clean background, a winner, proven success...

Good luck with all that. Give me 50 years and it'll even out. JC Watts is the only guy I can come up with that fits the bill and didn't go pro.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

who's your daddy?
http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/viihde/leffasivujen_kuvat/25158.jpg


...and that movie sucked.

[XingTheRubicon]

I thought it was buoyancy