not guilty :(

[jk the sooner fan]

the jury in houston decides that andrea yates is not guilty by reason of insanity

what a tragedy.......

[slickdawg]

see, six rounds years ago, and we wouldn'r be having this day of disgust.

[OhU1]

See seemed pretty crazy to me. Harris County is not exactly liberal on the death penalty either.

[Sooner_Bob]

so depression is a form of insanity now?

[Penguin]

Do you honestly think she was in her right mind when she killed her kids?

[1stTimeCaller]

Do you honestly think she was in her right mind when she killed her kids?
is anyone in their right mind when they murder another person?

She chased her kids around the house and then methodically drowned them one at a time in the bath tub.

She f***ing chased her kids around the house, caught them, took them to the bathroom some probably kicking and screaming, and drowned them.

[jk the sooner fan]

Do you honestly think she was in her right mind when she killed her kids?

is anybody in their right mind when they commit murder?

the definition of insanity is whether she knew at the time that what she did was wrong.

the DA gave 60 instances and examples showing that she knew what she did was wrong, as well as a forensic psychiatrist that testified she wasnt "insane"

mental illness does not always equate to insanity

[Sooner_Bob]

Do you honestly think she was in her right mind when she killed her kids?


ummm no . . . but if being labeled as depressed now leads to a possible not guilty by reason of insanity verdict we're all screwed.

[Penguin]

She chased her kids around the house and then methodically drowned them one at a time in the bath tub.

She f***ing chased her kids around the house, caught them, took them to the bathroom some probably kicking and screaming, and drowned them.


From what I understand, she thought that she was saving their souls.


Sounds pretty kookoo to me.

[Sooner_Bob]

mental illness does not always equate to insanity


and this ladies and gents was my point . . .

[jk the sooner fan]

the problem, and i saw this in my previous job, is that 'normal' people have a hard time understanding "how could she do that"

and since they cant answer it, they equate that to "crazy"


its good that you cant "understand" how she could do that, it means your normal (for the most part) but it doesnt mean she's criminally insane

she'll get her final judgement day, of that i'm sure - thats the only one that matters

[jk the sooner fan]

From what I understand, she thought that she was saving their souls.


Sounds pretty kookoo to me.

and the forensic shrink said he didnt believe that, but that she just couldnt cope with being a bad mother

[Vaevictis]

is anyone in their right mind when they murder another person?

Actually, yes, lots of people are. They may be bad, bad people, but that doesn't mean they're insane.


She chased her kids around the house and then methodically drowned them one at a time in the bath tub.

She f***ing chased her kids around the house, caught them, took them to the bathroom some probably kicking and screaming, and drowned them.

I know a few people with schitzophrenia; while in one of their "episodes", they can be violent, but once their doctors find the right treatment, they are perfectly normal, well adjusted decent people.

Do you toss someone in jail, or execute them just because they have the misfortune of having a biological chemical imbalance?

I don't know if Yates herself was really insane at the time, but I do know that it's not reasonable to hold a truly insane person responsible for their actions like you would a sane person.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Best outcome I can think of!! She is mentally ill, had been shuttled between treatment options due to insurance coverage (or lack of), The husband may not have been the best person, but he did appear to provide the best treatment for her he could. Insurance limitations on mental health treatment was problematic. Now she will get the treatment she needs, rather than the spotty treatment she would have been given in prison.

Sad for the little children, but after living through a similar experience with an Aunt, I truly believe she was not mentally fully aware and should get treatment not prison. The real meaning is she will most likely be locked away for a very long time and have to deal with what she did.

[Penguin]

ummm no . . . but if being labeled as depressed now leads to a possible not guilty by reason of insanity verdict we're all screwed.



http://www.burnoutmag.com/i/2005-06-23-tomcruise.gif

Thanks for the opinion, Mr. Cruise. ;)

[Penguin]

and the forensic shrink said he didnt believe that, but that she just couldnt cope with being a bad mother


I know 12 people in downtown Houston who disagree.

[GrapevineSooner]

You can be mentally ill, but still be able to tell right from wrong.

I think Andrea Yates knew what she was doing was wrong.

[etouffee]

of course she did. there was ample evidence to demonstrate she knew what she did was wrong at the time she did it.

[OhU1]

Whether the jury was correct or not they found that she did not understand the nature of the act she was committing. That she lacked the mental capacity to commit the crime charged. That is way beyond the standard of merely being mentally ill. To convince me of such a mental state you would have to show me that the killer literally didn't know they were doing anything wrong. That they took no steps to conceal the act or escape detection. For example the killer is found having a tea party with his victims on the front porch in the middle of the day waving at passing cars.

[Sooner in Tampa]

Another victory for the treehugging, lovey dovey liberals in this country who hate the death penalty.

[etouffee]

Another victory for the treehugging, lovey dovey liberals in this country who hate the death penalty.I know quite a few conservatives who oppose it too.

[Partial Qualifier]

This is part of what's wrong with this country. Insanity defense?! PLEASE.

That woman shold be subjected to a public stoning or something similiar. Burned at the stake, whatever. "Insane" or not - an example should be made of people who do things like this.

[Sooner in Tampa]

I know quite a few conservatives who oppose it too.This is the kind of case that the death penalty was made for. It should have been signed, sealed, and delivered!

[Partial Qualifier]

Whether the jury was correct or not they found that she did not understand the nature of the act she was committing. That she lacked the mental capacity to commit the crime charged. That is way beyond the standard of merely being mentally ill. To convince me of such a mental state you would have to show me that the killer literally didn't know they were doing anything wrong. That they took no steps to conceal the act or escape detection. For example the killer is found having a tea party with his victims on the front porch in the middle of the day waving at passing cars.

Good point but that person should STILL be held 100% accountable.

"Oh, you were temporarily insane at the moment you were drowning those children? That's fine, but we need to get your genes outta the pool ASAP."

[jk the sooner fan]

they werent seeking the death penalty, the worst she could get was life with no parole

[etouffee]

"Insane" or not - an example should be made of people who do things like this.I don't believe Yates was insane, but what kind of example would you be making, if you executed a person who truly was insane? What's the message there?

[C&CDean]

I see two tragedies here.

1. Her kids were drowned by their own mother.

2. She didn't take a gun and blow her own pathetic brains out.

So she's insane. BFD. She should still be sent directly to hell. I don't get the whole "well he's insane, so we just need to lock him up somewhere....." argument. If he's ****ing insane, he's gonna do it again someday. Put. Him. To. Sleep.

[Vaevictis]

If he's ****ing insane, he's gonna do it again someday. Put. Him. To. Sleep.

Some forms of insanity are treatable with the right kind of drugs. What about them?

[etouffee]

Good point but that person should STILL be held 100% accountable. Hold people who don't know what they're doing accountable for the things they do. Very sensible.


That's fine, but we need to get your genes outta the pool ASAP.yeah. we should probably get all those folks with serious diseases out of the gene pool asap, too. and then maybe the ugly people. and after that, the ones who are too short. fire up the ovens!!!!

[OhU1]

That's fine, but we need to get your genes outta the pool ASAP."

Like a retroactive abortion maybe?

[jk the sooner fan]

Some forms of insanity are treatable with the right kind of drugs. What about them?

did "them" murder their five children?

[C&CDean]

Some forms of insanity are treatable with the right kind of drugs. What about them?

If somebody's "insanity" causes them to kill people, I'm thinking it's too late for drugs. How many "crazy" people have gone on and killed more people cause they forgot to take their drugs? Or in their "insanity" chose not to?

I look at homicidal insanity like I do at rabid dogs. You will never cure them. You shoot them so they don't infect/hurt anybody/thing else.

[Flagstaffsooner]

If she was a male she would be on death row.

[GrapevineSooner]

If it was Rusty Yates who did this, potassium chloride would already be flowing through his system.

[Vaevictis]

Hey, since we should hold ALL mentally ill people accountable for their actions stemming from their illness, what's your stance on vets suffering from flashbacks/PTSD?

[OklahomaRed]

Best outcome I can think of!! She is mentally ill, had been shuttled between treatment options due to insurance coverage (or lack of), The husband may not have been the best person, but he did appear to provide the best treatment for her he could. Insurance limitations on mental health treatment was problematic. Now she will get the treatment she needs, rather than the spotty treatment she would have been given in prison.

Sad for the little children, but after living through a similar experience with an Aunt, I truly believe she was not mentally fully aware and should get treatment not prison. The real meaning is she will most likely be locked away for a very long time and have to deal with what she did.


After they let her out of the asylum because some psychiatrist says she's "cured", we'll let her come live next door to you. If you can answer that question, "Sure, I would not have any problem with her coming and living next door to me", then you are only giving the issue lip service, as opposed to actually believing she belongs out on the streets. Insanity or not, she should be locked up with no possibility of ever getting out, MINIMUM.

:mad:

[C&CDean]

Hey, since we should hold ALL mentally ill people accountable for their actions stemming from their illness, what's your stance on vets suffering from flashbacks/PTSD?

Oh no you don't. You ain't going tuba on me here. I said "homicide." You know, where you kill people and ****? But you libs (and tuba) are great at jumping off cliffs, aren't you?

Hat guy in Norman is bat**** crazy, but he shouldn't be shot.

[SoonerInKCMO]

From what I understand, she thought that she was saving their souls.


Sounds pretty kookoo to me.

So you're saying that if she'd been an atheist then the kids would be alive today?

:pop:

[OhU1]

If it was Rusty Yates who did this, potassium chloride would already be flowing through his system.

You'd think Rusty Yates was responsible if you were misfortunate enough to see any women's talk shows regarding the topic. Just like a Lifetime Channel movie - in the end a man is always to blame somewhere.

[jk the sooner fan]

Hey, since we should hold ALL mentally ill people accountable for their actions stemming from their illness, what's your stance on vets suffering from flashbacks/PTSD?

again

criminally insane is DIFFERENT than mentally ill

[Vaevictis]

did "them" murder their five children?

No, but I have a relative (with schitzophrenia) who was found walking down US-75 one night with a pistol in hand. She was suffering from paranoid delusions.

If it had been a stranger who found her, they'd be dead now.

2 years later, her doctor found the right combination of drugs and she is now a normal and decent member of society.

[C&CDean]

No, but I have a relative (with schitzophrenia) who was found walking down US-75 one night with a pistol in hand. She was suffering from paranoid delusions.

If it had been a stranger who found her, they'd be dead now.

2 years later, her doctor found the right combination of drugs and she is now a normal and decent member of society.

Yeah, but for how long? And at what price? And when she slips up and eventually does shoot some poor bastard what then? Meh.

[GrapevineSooner]

Hey, since we should hold ALL mentally ill people accountable for their actions stemming from their illness, what's your stance on vets suffering from flashbacks/PTSD?

When was that ever suggested? I'm talking strictly about the Andrea Yates case here. And that people who know right from wrong should be be held accountable for their actions.

Reading comprehension helps in a situation like this, my friend.

[Vaevictis]

Oh no you don't. You ain't going tuba on me here. I said "homicide." You know, where you kill people and ****? But you libs (and tuba) are great at jumping off cliffs, aren't you?

Are you saying there's never been a vet who killed someone during a flashback?

[Vaevictis]

When was that ever suggested?

'I don't get the whole "well he's insane, so we just need to lock him up somewhere....." argument. If he's ****ing insane, he's gonna do it again someday. Put. Him. To. Sleep.'


Reading comprehension helps in a situation like this, my friend.

Yes, it certainly does.

[C&CDean]

Are you saying there's never been a vet who killed someone during a flashback?

No. What I'm saying is that you chose an extremely ****-poor choice of words by saying "ALL." If a vet kills somebody, and tries to blame it on PTSD, then he oughta be put out of his misery too. Dude did it once, he'll do it again. Just a matter of time.

[Partial Qualifier]

I don't believe Yates was insane, but what kind of example would you be making, if you executed a person who truly was insane? What's the message there?

A perfect example: Kill and you will be killed. The "Insane" part of it should never enter the equation. just IMO.

[JohnnyMack]

Can't we just let someone beat her to death with a hammer or something?

[C&CDean]

Can't we just let someone beat her to death with a hammer or something?

Dude, you are coming around. Good on ya.

[Sooner in Tampa]

they werent seeking the death penalty, the worst she could get was life with no paroleI think that is the LEAST she should have gotten.

She freakin killed her OWN kids. :mad: She got over on this one.

She will be a free woman again someday too. THAT's what really ****es me off.

[Vaevictis]

Yeah, but for how long? And at what price? And when she slips up and eventually does shoot some poor bastard what then? Meh.

Look, I agree with the whole, "If it's inevitable" or "If there's no hope of redemption" thing. There are certain people who need to go down because of those reasons.

In fact, if she does slip up, well, she was sane when she chose to go off the drugs. And she should be held accountable for that.

But if someone is insane and is not in control of their own actions, I think you should make an effort to treat the insanity instead of just tossing them in the trash.

[etouffee]

A perfect example: Kill and you will be killed. The "Insane" part of it should never enter the equation. just IMO.and you're figuring that would deter insane people from killing, since they're so good at reasoning and such?

[Sooner in Tampa]

Can't we just let someone beat her to death with a hammer or something?SPEK...Now your talking.

:pop:

[JohnnyMack]

Dude, you are coming around. Good on ya.

I'll be a :dean:-anite in no time.

Where's my Skoal?

[mdklatt]

so depression is a form of insanity now?

You think it isn't? Try it some time.

[Partial Qualifier]

Hold people who don't know what they're doing accountable for the things they do. Very sensible.

yeah. we should probably get all those folks with serious diseases out of the gene pool asap, too. and then maybe the ugly people. and after that, the ones who are too short. fire up the ovens!!!!

Dude are you lost? Holy crap.

We're talking about MURDERERS here, not people with Parkinson's disease.

And yes, hold people accountable for their heinous actions whether they were temporarily insane, sleepwalking, or high on drugs, whatever.

Pretty hard to grasp, I know :rolleyes:

[Vaevictis]

No. What I'm saying is that you chose an extremely ****-poor choice of words by saying "ALL." If a vet kills somebody, and tries to blame it on PTSD, then he oughta be put out of his misery too. Dude did it once, he'll do it again. Just a matter of time.

Well hell, a crime is a crime, is it not? If you're going to hold someone accountable for their insanity in a capital crime, why not a lesser one? How about rape? Arson? Assault?

Logically it follows that it would be, essentially, all crimes.

[etouffee]

You think it isn't? Try it some time.Depression is not insanity. And it's certainly not insanity under the legal definition. You'd have to be a lot more than depressed to not understand that murdering your children was wrong.

[Sooner in Tampa]

You think it isn't? Try it some time.depression does not equate to insanity.

Insanity = the inability to differ between right or wrong.

Apples to oranges.

[C&CDean]

I'll be a :dean:-anite in no time.

Where's my Skoal?

Dipping Skoal will NOT get you into the order. Only dumbasses dip. Just like smokers. To be in my religion, you have to be smart. And ****.

[yermom]

A perfect example: Kill and you will be killed. The "Insane" part of it should never enter the equation. just IMO.

if i was Mr. Yates i'm not sure i could have kept from going Slickdawg on her upon finding that scene

of course then he would probably get charged with the kids' murder too...

i agree though, if this was a father on trial he'd be dead as ****ing fried chicken

[mdklatt]

I don't believe Yates was insane, but what kind of example would you be making, if you executed a person who truly was insane? What's the message there?

:les: Be born with better genes!

[Pricetag]

In fact, if she does slip up, well, she was sane when she chose to go off the drugs. And she should be held accountable for that.

Slip up. Oops!

[etouffee]

We're talking about MURDERERS here, not people with Parkinson's disease.

And yes, hold people accountable for their heinous actions whether they were temporarily insane, sleepwalking, or high on drugs, whatever.

Pretty hard to grasp, I know :rolleyes:Yeah, tell me all about your GRASP, pal, since you don't seem to GRASP that severe mental illness is every bit as much of a disease as Parkinsons. Thus, if you're going to kill people for having one disease, you might as well kill em all. Purge that gene pool, as you suggested. If a person commits murder in the absence of a severe mental illness, I'm the first one to say fry em'. But I don't see killing people for things they couldn't help. They don't need to be punished, they need to be isolated in the interest of public safety. Lock them up so they can't hurt anyone else, and don't let them out, ever.

[mdklatt]

If anybody should be going to jail it should be the husband. He's certainly not innocent.

[C&CDean]

Well hell, a crime is a crime, is it not? If you're going to hold someone accountable for their insanity in a capital crime, why not a lesser one? How about rape? Arson?

Logically it follows that it would be, essentially, all crimes.

Exactly.

You made my point perfectly. If the penalty for rape is 50-years, somebody who rapes somebody should get 50 years. Not 2 years in a cush hospital on mega-drugs then a free pass to go out and rape other people after he's "cured."

In this case, bitch should already be worm food.

[Sooner in Tampa]

If anybody should be going to jail it should be the husband. He's certainly not innocent.:eek: WTF???

[JohnnyMack]

Well hell, a crime is a crime, is it not? If you're going to hold someone accountable for their insanity in a capital crime, why not a lesser one? How about rape? Arson? Assault?

Logically it follows that it would be, essentially, all crimes.

I think you're missing a pretty important point. Namely the five dead kids. I don't give a **** what her reasoning, rationale or mental state was, I say she needs to eliminated from the gene pool. Kill her. Nowish.

[mdklatt]

depression does not equate to insanity.

Insanity = the inability to differ between right or wrong.

Apples to oranges.


Depression literally causes your brain to stop working correctly. If you have a severe enough case you don't know up from down.

[C&CDean]

I think you're missing a pretty important point. Namely the five dead kids. I don't give a **** what her reasoning, rationale or mental state was, I say she needs to eliminated from the gene pool. Kill her. Nowish.

Man, I'm starting to kinda like you. A little.

[Vaevictis]

Exactly.

You made my point perfectly. If the penalty for rape is 50-years, somebody who rapes somebody should get 50 years. Not 2 years in a cush hospital on mega-drugs then a free pass to go out and rape other people after he's "cured."

In this case, bitch should already be worm food.

So, as I said -- ALL crimes, even vets suffering from flashbacks/PTSD.

I disagree, but at least there's no double standard with you.

[Sooner in Tampa]

I think you're missing a pretty important point. Namely the five dead kids. I don't give a **** what her reasoning, rationale or mental state was, I say she needs to eliminated from the gene pool. Kill her. Nowish.Holy $h!t that kid has done wonders to JM!

Keep on layin it down dude.

:pop:

[etouffee]

I don't give a **** what her reasoning, rationale or mental state was, I say she needs to eliminated from the gene pool. Kill her. Nowish.That could be accomplished without killing her.

[yermom]

:eek: WTF???

he convinced her to get off meds to have more kids even though she was obviously mentally unstable

he's an asshat for sure

he's at least indirectly responsible

[mdklatt]

:eek: WTF???


Read this: http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm

[etouffee]

Depression literally causes your brain to stop working correctly. If you have a severe enough case you don't know up from down.I'm quite familiar with depression. In its most severe form, it would not cause you to not know murdering children is wrong.

[JohnnyMack]

That could be accomplished without killing her.

No. It couldn't.

Anyone got a pig farm handy?

[yermom]

That could be accomplished without killing her.

yeah, but i for one would feel a lot better.

perhaps some waterboarding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) first

[Hamhock]

Postpartum is very real and can make people do things that are very much out of their character.

However, if you don't punish someone who commits a crime because of <caveat> then you are pushing people to use <caveat> as an excuse, crutch, or flat out fake alibi.

Typically, a person isn't totally normal one second and drowning 5 of their own kids the next. She/her husband should have seen signs and got help. They didn't, now someone should have to pay for the crime.

[C&CDean]

So, as I said -- ALL crimes, even vets suffering from flashbacks/PTSD.

I disagree, but at least there's no double standard with you.

Yeah, I'm not real big on the whole PTSD thingie. My pop did 3 wars. I am a vet in an elite military unit. I did not go to Vietnam (my unit was already out of there in 1974), but I did spend some interesting months in the Panama Canal Zone. Pop and me are fine. Just like dang near every vet I know.

My cousin, on the other hand, was an embassy guard in Saigon. He hurt his back, and got sent home. To this day, he is a drug dependent punk who uses PTSD as a crutch. Hasn't worked a day in his life, and when he gets put in a corner (like the one time a V.A. doc was going to cut off his pain pills) he goes all "Vietnam Vet." You know, jumps on the floor and starts screaming "INCOMING, INCOMING!!!" and acts like helecopters are everywhere. I've seen him pull that **** a couple times, and it's the worse act I've ever seen. Like I said, he's a punk.

[MamaMia]

Those poor kids. I feel sick. :(

[Hamhock]

That could be accomplished without killing her.


not without sending the message to others that they can do the same thing and use the same excuse without fear of normal punishment.

[etouffee]

to be clear, i'm not defending yates. i don't buy her insanity story for a minute. she and the husband should fry. that doesn't invalidate the entire notion of criminal insanity in other cases.

[etouffee]

not without sending the message to others that they can do the same thing and use the same excuse without fear of normal punishment.so, by that reasoning, we should be more concerned with sending messages and making examples than with making sure justice is served. we should punish people for things that aren't their fault, just to make examples of them. sounds very.... hmmm... china? north korea? what am i looking for here? iran?

[mdklatt]

Typically, a person isn't totally normal one second and drowning 5 of their own kids the next. She/her husband should have seen signs and got help. They didn't, now someone should have to pay for the crime.

If we're going to throw the sick person under the bus, let's not forget about the healthy person who at best ignored the situation and at worse exacerbated it.

[Hamhock]

so, by that reasoning, we should be more concerned with sending messages and making examples than with making sure justice is served. we should punish people for things that aren't their fault, just to make examples of them. sounds very.... hmmm... china? north korea? what am i looking for here? iran?


i guess we have a different view of justice. she caused the deaths of 5 children. justice demands her life. the message should be the same as justice.

[C&CDean]

we should punish people for things that aren't their fault?

This is why America is so ****ed up. Nobody is at fault. If they did it, it's their ****ing fault. How hard is that to understand?

[Vaevictis]

sounds very.... hmmm... china? north korea? what am i looking for here? iran?

The word you're looking for is "un-American."

[JohnnyMack]

we should punish people for things that aren't their fault

Can you answer the following question with a simple yes or no:

Did she kill her kids?

[Hamhock]

If we're going to throw the sick person under the bus, let's not forget about the healthy person who at best ignored the situation and at worse exacerbated it.

i agree. dude should've stepped in.

(I'm assuming that the postpartum didn't manifest itself in the once instance we know of.)

[C&CDean]

Dude, it's getting kinda scarey even.

[Partial Qualifier]

Yeah, tell me all about your GRASP, pal, since you don't seem to GRASP that severe mental illness is every bit as much of a disease as Parkinsons. Thus, if you're going to kill people for having one disease, you might as well kill em all. Purge that gene pool, as you suggested. If a person commits murder in the absence of a severe mental illness, I'm the first one to say fry em'. But I don't see killing people for things they couldn't help. They don't need to be punished, they need to be isolated in the interest of public safety. Lock them up so they can't hurt anyone else, and don't let them out, ever.

Heh. Maybe you misunderstood me. Again.

I never said "Lets kill all the people with mental illness".

I did however say "Lets kill all the people who kill people" and "no, it shouldn't matter if their lawyers can sell a 'temporary insanity' plea to a jury"

[Hamhock]

Dude, it's getting kinda scarey even.

Clearly, someone has stolen his password.

[jk the sooner fan]

Man, I'm starting to kinda like you. A little.

amazing what parenthood will do to a liberal huh? ;)

[1stTimeCaller]

I don't buy the whole 'she didn't have the mental capicity to know what she was doing was wrong'. Some people do, fine. I say we take away her physical ability to catch, carry and then strangle/drown people by lopping her arms off.

When her treatment is over and the docs say she's no longer fit for a straight jacket but that she's fit to live next door to Woe to the Conquerored aka Vaevictis then he won't have to worry about her forgetting that it isn't cool to drown his kids.

[mdklatt]

(I'm assuming that the postpartum didn't manifest itself in the once instance we know of.)

Apparently not: http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm

After previous psyhchotic episodes, they were advised by Andrea's doctor that she shouldn't have any more kids. Not only did Rusty get her pregnant again, but encouraged her to stop taking her anti-psychotic medication at that time.

[C&CDean]

amazing what parenthood will do to a liberal huh? ;)

Yeah, when you look down in your arms and see that little dude smiling up at you and think "if anybody ever harms you, I will personally rip their head from their shoulders" - it kinda changes a guy.

[JohnnyMack]

amazing what parenthood will do to a liberal huh? ;)

Something clicked, like a generator being switched on back in December when I saw him moving around on the ultrasound. It was quietly humming in my subconscious and came online last Tuesday. Kinda like in Terminator 3 when Skynet goes online.

[1stTimeCaller]

doesn't Ron White say something like if you're crazy and you eat your own poop that's fine we'll find you some help but if you're crazy and you kill people you'll wish you would have just eaten your own poop instead of eating other humans?

[Vaevictis]

This is why America is so ****ed up. Nobody is at fault. If they did it, it's their ****ing fault. How hard is that to understand?

Are there no mitigating circumstances then?

[C&CDean]

Apparently not: http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm

After previous psyhchotic episodes, they were advised by Andrea's doctor that she shouldn't have any more kids. Not only did Rusty get her pregnant again, but encouraged her to stop taking her anti-psychotic medication at that time.

OK. Since when is wanting some poon a crime?

[JohnnyMack]

OK. Since when is wanting some poon a crime?

:les:Lock me up!!!

[mdklatt]

OK. Since when is wanting some poon a crime?

See Dean, there's this new-fangled thing called birth control....

[C&CDean]

See Dean, there's this new-fangled thing called birth control....

Crazy bitch wouldn't give up the poon unless she was off the drugs. I guess he should get charged with a crime for not divorcing her nutty butt.

[Hamhock]

OK. Since when is wanting some poon a crime?


:eek:

http://www.bureau-13.com/picts/fl-poon.jpg

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

'Nutty butt'.

Heh.

[C&CDean]

You and VK will not be hanging around any longer. Nasty minds......

[Sooner Born Sooner Bred]

Was the husband ever charged with at least accessory? He knew she was going to snap eventually.

[C&CDean]

Was the husband ever charged with at least accessory? He knew she was going to snap eventually.

Charging him would be like charging the girl who doesn't wear panties and shakes her booty in some guy's face and gets raped. She knew eventually somebody would rape her.

[Vaevictis]

When her treatment is over and the docs say she's no longer fit for a straight jacket but that she's fit to live next door to Woe to the Conquerored aka Vaevictis then he won't have to worry about her forgetting that it isn't cool to drown his kids.

Hold up. I'm not saying that such people should ever be left unsupervised.

The schitzophrenic relative I referred to earlier lives with her parents who make sure she makes her psych appointments and make her take her meds. If she outlives them, her sister will do the same. And if she outlives her sister, her nephew will do the same. And if she outlives everyone, she goes to a mental hospital.

[yermom]

Was the husband ever charged with at least accessory? He knew she was going to snap eventually.

i can see where he was irresponsible and stupid, but sadly that isn't a crime ;)

[C&CDean]

Hold up. I'm not saying that such people should ever be left unsupervised.

The schitzophrenic relative I referred to earlier lives with her parents who make sure she makes her psych appointments and make her take her meds. If she outlives them, her sister will do the same. And if she outlives her sister, her nephew will do the same. And if she outlives everyone, she goes to a mental hospital.

That's one hell of a gamble I'm thinking.

[jk the sooner fan]

a doctor does not have the authority to release her, all the doctor can do is say "she's cured"

the judge that puts her in the looney bin (or the court that did it) is the ONLY authority to release her from the nutward

[Vaevictis]

That's one hell of a gamble I'm thinking.

Would you do any less for your son/daughter? Your brother/sister? Your uncle/aunt?

[yermom]

if "not guilty by reason of insanity" means padded cell for the rest of her life i'm not sure that is all that bad, of course Mr. Yates should be footing the bill though


if she gets to go home, it should be minus one uterus, regardless of meds

[C&CDean]

Would you do any less for your son/daughter? Your brother/sister? Your uncle/aunt?

Maybe, just maybe my kid. Any of the others? Nope.

[Hamhock]

That's one hell of a gamble I'm thinking.


so, do you lock her up before she commits a crime?

[mdklatt]

i can see where he was irresponsible and stupid, but sadly that isn't a crime ;)

She tried to harm the other four kids more than once. Her doctor said another kid would push her over the edge. It's more than "irresponsible" to get her pregnant and take her off the anti-crazy pills, don't you think? I'd say it was criminally negligent.

[Vaevictis]

Maybe, just maybe my kid. Any of the others? Nope.

Well, in my family, everyone who's not gets second fiddle. If that means we risk your life to protect one of our own, so be it.

[Mjcpr]

the judge that puts her in the looney bin (or the court that did it) is the ONLY authority to release her from the nutward

If I were to ever have a son, I would have to consider the name Nutward.

Nutward.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

If I were to ever have a son, I would have to consider the name Nutward.

Nutward.

Nutward Nuttybutt Smith.

[jk the sooner fan]

name him Deez, and use that nutward thing as a middle name

[crawfish]

to be clear, i'm not defending yates. i don't buy her insanity story for a minute. she and the husband should fry. that doesn't invalidate the entire notion of criminal insanity in other cases.

And the husband?

Clueless, yes. Killer, no. Holding him responsibly legally would be criminal in itself. I doubt he had any idea what his wife was capable of doing.

[Pricetag]

If I were to ever have a son, I would have to consider the name Nutward.

Nutward.
Nutward, I think you were a little hard on The Beaver last night.

[mdklatt]

I doubt he had any idea what his wife was capable of doing.

Except for the fact that she'd tried to harm her other kids more than once, was taking anti-pshchotic medication, and he recevied a warning from her doctor that having more kids would push over the edge he was completely in the dark about the whole thing.

[Pricetag]

I say we take away her physical ability to catch, carry and then strangle/drown people by lopping her arms off.

When her treatment is over and the docs say she's no longer fit for a straight jacket. . .
If you've already lopped her arms off, is the straight jacket really necessary? That's just cold.

[1stTimeCaller]

Except for the fact that she'd tried to harm her other kids more than once, was taking anti-pshchotic medication, and he recevied a warning from her doctor that having more kids would push over the edge he was completely in the dark about the whole thing.
and the Doctor didn't warn her?

I don't know about the guy and what he did/didn't do but I do know this, you can only control 2 things in this world; your thoughts and the actions you take on your thoughts.

[Mjcpr]

and the Doctor didn't warn her?

I don't know about the guy and what he did/didn't do but I do know this, you can only control 2 things in this world; your thoughts and the actions you take on your thoughts.

And your urine stream. You can control your urine stream.

[Hamhock]

And your urine stream. You can control your urine stream.

Not when you get my age.

[mdklatt]

and the Doctor didn't warn her?



But she's ****ing crazy! The husband was the instigator of the two things the doctor told them not to do.

[mdklatt]

you can only control 2 things in this world; your thoughts and the actions you take on your thoughts

Nobody can control their thoughts. And if you're, you know, ****ing crazy, you lose the ability to control your actions as well.

[etouffee]

Nobody can control their thoughts. And if you're, you know, ****ing crazy, you lose the ability to control your actions as well.That's not universally true. SOME people who are ****ing crazy cannot control their actions. But some can. Being ****ing crazy should not automatically absolve people of all responsibility for their actions. The court should determine what kind of ****ing crazy theiy are, and if it's the kind of ****ing crazy where you really aren't in control of your actions, or where you really don't understand right from wrong, then I think the sentencing needs to lean more towards isolation in the interest of public safety, rather than punishment in the form of death. You can't punish people for things they couldn't help.

[Sooner in Tampa]

But she's ****ing crazy! The husband was the instigator of the two things the doctor told them not to do.The last time I checked...she is an adult...she could have said NO!!!! My wife doesn't have a problem telling me that 4 kids is enough.
While he was the one who wanted more childrens and he wanted her off of the meds, I think it is a pretty safe assumption that he did not think that he would go to work one day and get a phone call saying that his kids were at the bottom of the tub.
It is HER ****ING FAULT...she drug the last one killed down the hall while he was kicking and screaming and begging for his life. GAME OVER---SHE GOT OFF admit it.

[etouffee]

It makes me literally sick to my stomach to see the pics of those kids on tv, and imagine what she did to them. I simply cannot process how that could happen.

[C&CDean]

That's not universally true. SOME people who are ****ing crazy cannot control their actions. But some can. Being ****ing crazy should not automatically absolve people of all responsibility for their actions. The court should determine what kind of ****ing crazy theiy are, and if it's the kind of ****ing crazy where you really aren't in control of your actions, or where you really don't understand right from wrong, then I think the sentencing needs to lean more towards isolation in the interest of public safety, rather than punishment in the form of death. You can't punish people for things they couldn't help.

Euthanizing crazy murderers is most definitely in the interest of public safety, and isn't really punishment. More like a public service. If they're really crazy, they can just figure they're being set free from their misery. Win-win.

[Hamhock]

That's not universally true. SOME people who are ****ing crazy cannot control their actions. But some can. Being ****ing crazy should not automatically absolve people of all responsibility for their actions. The court should determine what kind of ****ing crazy theiy are, and if it's the kind of ****ing crazy where you really aren't in control of your actions, or where you really don't understand right from wrong, then I think the sentencing needs to lean more towards isolation in the interest of public safety, rather than punishment in the form of death. You can't punish people for things they couldn't help.


I may agree with you in theory, but it is impossible to determine, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what a person couldn't control, therefore, the person should be punished.

[mdklatt]

While he was the one who wanted more childrens and he wanted her off of the meds, I think it is a pretty safe assumption that he did not think that he would go to work one day and get a phone call saying that his kids were at the bottom of the tub.


It's a good thing it's not illegal to drive drunk, because I'm sure nobody who drives drunk thinks they're ever going to kill anybody. Criminal negligence laws are silly.

[etouffee]

Euthanizing crazy murderers is most definitely in the interest of public safety, and isn't really punishment.Protecting the public from further harm is what is in the interest of public safety. That can be accomplished without killing them.
More like a public service. If they're really crazy, they can just figure they're being set free from their misery.So I take it that you favor euthanizing terminally ill patients, especially those that are consuming public funds for care, as a public service. It would be a win-win, as you say: they're "set free" from their misery, and the taxpayers save some money.

[yermom]

i'm pretty sure it's not illegal to have kids, no matter how stupid of an idea it may be

[etouffee]

it is impossible to determine, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what a person couldn't control, therefore, the person should be punished.Seems to fly in the face of the whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept. So the new legal standard in America is "We can't determine whether you're guilty or not, so we must punish you just in case you are." Hmph. As I said before, that sounds awfully Chinese or Iranian.

[mdklatt]

i'm pretty sure it's not illegal to have kids, no matter how stupid of an idea it may be

When it leads to the death of five kids it's gone beyond stupid.

[etouffee]

When it leads to the death of five kids it's gone beyond stupid.but not illegal.

[Hamhock]

Seems to fly in the face of the whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept. So the new legal standard in America is "We can't determine whether you're guilty or not, so we must punish you just in case you are." Hmph. As I said before, that sounds awfully Chinese or Iranian.

I'm sorry, I thought it was clear that she MURDERED 5 CHILDREN.

[mdklatt]

but not illegal.

criminal negligence - recklessly acting without reasonable caution and putting another person at risk of injury or death (or failing to do something with the same consequences)

[Tear Down This Wall]

Here's the bitch of it all to me - the husband got away scot free! This dude had full knowledge that his wife was severely depressed, medicated for the same, had been explicitly told by her the she felt like she'd harm the kids, and he left them with her anyway!

Although I've got a law degree, I hate our criminal justice system. Too many as*shats get away with too much. At minimum, Mrs. Baby Killing Whackjob's husband should be tried for child endangerment. At most, he should be sitting on trial for the same thing drunk drivers get hammered for - criminally negligent homicide!

The whole idea of this guy walking around with his damn sunglesses on, remarrying, and having more kids makes me physically and violently ill (ala Barry Switzer after the 1984 "tie" game versus Texas)!

:mad: Angry face, angry face, angry face... :mad: ...fart....

[etouffee]

I'm sorry, I thought it was clear that she MURDERED 5 CHILDREN.But it's not clear whether she was in control of her actions when she did it. If she was not in control of her own actions due to a medical condition, how can you possibly put her to death for it? Would you execute a person who had a siezure or stroke while driving and caused a fatal accident? Of course not. You'd (hopefully) take steps to prevent them from driving or otherwise endangering others. The same should apply for the criminally insane. Punishment should be reserved for those who knowingly, willingly, committed a crime with a complete understanding that their actions were wrong. This is especially true when we're talking about putting a human being to death.

*i'd like to state once again, before anyone pounces, that I don't buy her insanity defense in this case. she's guilty as hell. i'm arguing in general terms and hypotheticals here.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

But it's not clear whether she was in control of her actions when she did it. If she was not in control of her own actions due to a medical condition, how can you possibly put her to death for it?

Can this really, really, be proven either way?

I'm asking here...

[Mjcpr]

Can this really, really, be proven either way?

I'm asking here...

Good question. On the one hand, she was cleaning stuff so she was obviously thinking like a normal woman.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

I take back all the nice thing I ever said about you.

[mdklatt]

Can this really, really, be proven either way?

I'm asking here...

She took her crazy pills and she was fine. This happened when she wasn't taking the crazy pills.

[etouffee]

Can this really, really, be proven either way?

I'm asking here...You can get a pretty clear picture of whether someone knew something was wrong by their actions before and after the incident. If they took steps in advance to keep from being detected, or if they took steps afterwards cover up what they did, it's pretty clear they knew it was wrong.

[Hamhock]

But it's not clear whether she was in control of her actions when she did it. If she was not in control of her own actions due to a medical condition, how can you possibly put her to death for it? Would you execute a person who had a siezure or stroke while driving and caused a fatal accident? Of course not. You'd (hopefully) take steps to prevent them from driving or otherwise endangering others. The same should apply for the criminally insane. Punishment should be reserved for those who knowingly, willingly, committed a crime with a complete understanding that their actions were wrong. This is especially true when we're talking about putting a human being to death.

*i'd like to state once again, before anyone pounces, that I don't buy her insanity defense in this case. she's guilty as hell. i'm arguing in general terms and hypotheticals here.

did the person in your scenario have a history of seizures? was this person on medication for seizures and willfully stopped taking it? if so, they should be criminally prosecuted.

[jk the sooner fan]

you know.....my ex wife went thru a period of depression...i was stationed in honduras, my youngest was 3 months old, my oldest was 4

i knew she was depressed,........she didnt kill either one of them, and there's no way i would have ever been able to predict that she'd "think they needed their souls to be cleansed"

i'm not saying rusty yates is lily white in all this, but he's sure as hell not an accomplice or accessory to murder

there are ALOT of mothers in this world who suffer depression and never kill their kids

[etouffee]

She took her crazy pills and she was fine. This happened when she wasn't taking the crazy pills.See, that opens up a whole new question of culpability. If she knowingly didn't take her crazy pills, and reasonably should have known this would/could put others in danger, then she should be held responsible for any actions she took while off the pills. You shouldn't be able to argue "I didn't know it was wrong" if you deliberately put yourself in a condition such that you wouldn't know it was wrong.

[etouffee]

did the person in your scenario have a history of seizures? was this person on medication for seizures and willfully stopped taking it? if so, they should be criminally prosecuted.absolutely no argument there. i think yates is guilty for those very reasons. well that and i just think she's lying. i'm speaking purely hypothetically. a person who truly doesn't understand right from wrong-- by no fault of their own (ie. failing to take medicines)-- shouldn't be put to death for a crime that results. they should be kept away from the rest of society.

[mdklatt]

See, that opens up a whole new question of culpability. If she knowingly didn't take her crazy pills, and reasonably should have known this would/could put others in danger, then she should be held responsible for any actions she took while off the pills.

If her husband manipulated her into not taking the pills, or at the very least didn't act when she stopped taking them he should be culpable too.

[etouffee]

you know.....my ex wife went thru a period of depression...i was stationed in honduras, my youngest was 3 months old, my oldest was 4

i knew she was depressed,........she didnt kill either one of them, and there's no way i would have ever been able to predict that she'd "think they needed their souls to be cleansed"

i'm not saying rusty yates is lily white in all this, but he's sure as hell not an accomplice or accessory to murder

there are ALOT of mothers in this world who suffer depression and never kill their kidscome on. that's a rather simplistic view, dont you think? there are varying degrees of depression and mental illness. Your argument is like saying "Well my friend had cancer and it didn't kill him, so no one else's cancer is terminal either."

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

You can get a pretty clear picture of whether someone knew something was wrong by their actions before and after the incident. If they took steps in advance to keep from being detected, or if they took steps afterwards cover up what they did, it's pretty clear they knew it was wrong.

True.

Still can't prove it, though.

I guess that' why this thread is a brazillion pages long...:rcmad:

[C&CDean]

This thread is starting to make my head hurt. When my head hurts, I usually just lock the thread. If nobody has anything NEW to add, let me know.

[etouffee]

True.

Still can't prove it, though.

that's why we have juries and a "reasonable doubt" standard. if everything could be proven with 100% certainty, there would be no need for such things.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

This thread is starting to make my head hurt. When my head hurts, I usually just lock the thread. If nobody has anything NEW to add, let me know.


4LIFE got a hole in one.

[etouffee]

If nobody has anything NEW to add, let me know.Ok. Nobody has anything new to add. Just letting you know. :D

[C&CDean]

I said "NEW" but I meant "that anybody gives a **** about."

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Now I remember why I avoid these frockling threads.

Lock it, Big Poppa.

[etouffee]

why do you hate holes-in-one?

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Heh.

[C&CDean]

why do you hate holes-in-one?

Cause I've never had one.