Senior gets diploma withheld

[Sooner in Tampa]

The Valedictorian of her class gets jammed by the PC police...sorry...her school administration.

Link (http://www.family.org/cforum/news/a0040791.cfm)


Legal experts say the action was a violation of her constitutional rights.

A top high school graduate in Colorado who shared her faith in her valedictory was escorted from the ceremony by school staff and told she couldn't take her diploma home until she explained her actions to the principal and the parents of other graduates.






Here is the entire speech that caused all the trouble:
"Throughout these lessons our teachers, parents, and let's not forget our peers have supported and encouraged us along the way. Thank you all for the past four amazing years. Because of your love and devotion to our success, we have all learned how to endure change and remain strong individuals. We are all capable of standing firm and expressing our own beliefs, which is why I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him. And we also encourage you, now that we are all ready to encounter the biggest change in our lives thus far, the transition from childhood to adulthood, to leave (our school) with confidence and integrity. Congratulations class of 2006."

[Vaevictis]

Stupid.

(Aside from the fact that it's perfectly fine for her to espouse her beliefs, way to draw unwanted attention by making a big deal out of nothing, Mr. School Administrator!)

[etouffee]

Definitely an overreaction, but still, she knew it wasn't a good idea, which is why she didn't include those remarks in the draft she submitted prior to the ceremony. There is a time and a place for everything, and that wasn't it.

[Stanley1]

I heard the speech, it was her squeaky voice that drove me nuts.

[slickdawg]

I heard the speech, it was her squeaky voice that drove me nuts.


But would you hit her?






;)

[SoonerInKCMO]

But would you hit her?






;)

From the results of my GIS, I'd say no.

[soonerscuba]

It would be so awesome if someone got up and talked about flying spaghetti monster, or better yet Mohammad, at a football game or graduation. Somehow I imagine the rage would be directed somewhere else.

[JohnnyMack]

Good.

[etouffee]

From the results of my GIS, I'd say no.


wird.

http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/8448/corder15bx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

that's just creepy.

[Stanley1]

But would you hit her?

I think she was hittable, but I don't remember for sure.

[Stanley1]

I think she was hittable, but I don't remember for sure.

Okay, based on the above picture, I'd like to retract that statement.

Would I hit it? Yes, with a car. :)

[Vaevictis]

Does that call for a brown paper bag at least?

[etouffee]

i don't know if i'd risk paper. might wanna go with a brown plastic bucket.

[Vaevictis]

Plastic trash bag?

(not to increase hittability. Because I'm skeered.)

[JohnnyMack]

I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him.

If she had acknowledged the role her religion had played in getting her to that point, that would be fine. It's her overt proselytizing that is offensive.

[etouffee]

Agreed. Though, I don't know if I'd say "offensive". Inappropriate for the occasion, perhaps.

[mdklatt]

Corder worked with her peers to write her segment, but did not include any reference to her faith in the draft she submitted to the principal — because she was unsure how it would be received.


In other words, she knew it was wrong.



"But I knew without a doubt that God was calling me to share my faith with those at graduation," she said.

I've got a feeling everyone in the school was already well aware of her religious beliefs.

[Vaevictis]

Maybe inappropriate. Still not grounds to withhold a diploma though, IMO.

(and if it was grounds by the rules, the rules are wrong. Valedictorians earn the right to say -- within reason -- pretty much whatever they want. This wasn't beyond the bounds of "reason." IMO.)

[etouffee]

She's been with these folks for 4 years. You'd think she could've found a little time to share her faith with them prior to the graduation ceremony.

[etouffee]

Still not grounds to withhold a diploma though, IMO.I don't think you'll find anyone to argue with that. That was totally over the line.

[JohnnyMack]

Is the whole thing worth a diploma being withheld? Prolly not. Did she act in poor taste? Yeah.

[SoonerInKCMO]

I don't think you'll find anyone to argue with that. That was totally over the line.

Yeah, but school administrations have been withholding diplomas for stupid reasons for a long time. At our graduation, a few people had theirs withheld for tossing their caps into the air.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Heh.

They threatened to hold ours if did the old 'put a marble in the dude's hand when you shake it' trick.

We were so awesome.

My marble was green and yellow.

[Boarder]

If she believes in Matthew 5:10, it's not a big deal.

[Mjcpr]

They threatened to hold ours if did the old 'put a marble in the dude's hand when you shake it' trick.

We were so awesome.

My marble was green and yellow.

My god you all were rebels.

:les:REBELS!!!

[Mjcpr]

If she believes in Matthew 5:10, it's not a big deal.

She might want to wait a few minutes, I may not be home 'til around 5:30.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

She might want to wait a few minutes, I may not be home 'til around 5:30.

I said 'marbles'...not 'BBs'...:mack:

[Mjcpr]

BaseBalls?

[mdklatt]

Maybe inappropriate. Still not grounds to withhold a diploma though, IMO.

(and if it was grounds by the rules, the rules are wrong. Valedictorians earn the right to say -- within reason -- pretty much whatever they want. This wasn't beyond the bounds of "reason." IMO.)

If she made a good faith (pardon the pun) effort, I would agree. But the fact that she left the comments out of the approved draft shows that she at least suspected that what she was doing was wrong. To me, this has nothing to do with the content of the message but with her disregard for the rules. Maybe the administrators overreacted, maybe the rules were unjust, but guess what? High school sucks. Play their game, get your diploma, and move on.

[etouffee]

If she believes in Matthew 5:10, it's not a big deal.
Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

When did sneaking remarks into a speech that were not in the draft you submitted for approval become righteous? Where I come from, that's called deception, and probably not on God's list of approved marketing strategies.

[yermom]

couldn't she have just thanked God or something? that is a bit over the top

i'm guessing that she didn't have much else to say ;)

[Boarder]

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

When did sneaking remarks into a speech that were not in the draft you submitted for approval become righteous? Where I come from, that's called deception, and probably not on God's list of approved marketing strategies.
If there was a specific rule forbidding it, and she willingly broke it, it was definitely wrong. Regardless of what she said. No one has really answered that question, though.

[Fugue]

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

When did sneaking remarks into a speech that were not in the draft you submitted for approval become righteous? Where I come from, that's called deception, and probably not on God's list of approved marketing strategies.

You're right, I'm sure Jesus is extremely disappointed with her.

[etouffee]

Rules have nothing to do with it. She submitted a draft of her remarks to the principal for approval, KNOWING she planned to say something different. She lied in order to sneak a blurb about Jesus into her speech. Somehow I doubt he would appreciate it.

[mdklatt]

You're right, I'm sure Jesus is extremely disappointed with her.

:les: Smite her down!

[etouffee]

You're right, I'm sure Jesus is extremely disappointed with her.If I were him, I would be. It doesn't send a very good message.

[Fugue]

Rules have nothing to do with it. She submitted a draft of her remarks to the principal for approval, KNOWING she planned to say something different. She lied in order to sneak a blurb about Jesus into her speech. Somehow I doubt he would appreciate it.

For a person not believing in Him, you sure know a lot about how Jesus would think.

[1stTimeCaller]

are we talking about her diploma being witheld or her transcript not being released?

One matters, the other, not so much.

[etouffee]

For a person not believing in Him, you sure know a lot about how Jesus would think.For a person who has no idea what I believe, you sure know a lot about what I believe.

And I'm not entirely sure how your believing in him makes you more an expert on how he thinks. :confused:

[1stTimeCaller]

I blasted our Athletic Director during my little speech at graduation and none of the admin said a word to me, except the AD.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

I blasted our Athletic Director during my little speech at graduation and none of the admin said a word to me, except the AD.

I'll bet you could cash your diploma in at an S & H Greenstamp store for a sweet lamp.

[Boarder]

She could have gone about it better. She should have put it in the draft and when they wouldn't let her do it, then raise a stink, if said stink was necessary.


Btw, if they withhold her diploma, so what. I have no idea where my diploma is and don't care.

[mdklatt]

Our salutatorian said it was time for us to stop "suckling at the teat" of our parents and teachers and move out into the real world. It was awesome. :D

[Fugue]

For a person who has no idea what I believe, you sure know a lot about what I believe.

And I'm not entirely sure how your believing in him makes you more an expert on how he thinks. :confused:

Am I wrong?

You're the one writing sin tickets for Jesus. :D

[1stTimeCaller]

I'll bet you could cash your diploma in at an S & H Greenstamp store for a sweet lamp.

I think it takes 40 CHS diplomas will get a reading lamp

[etouffee]

Am I wrong?

You're the one writing sin tickets for Jesus. :DI don't think the Bible is vague on whether or not lying is a sin. Do you?

[Fugue]

I don't think the Bible is vague on whether or not lying is a sin. Do you?

do you believe in Jesus as God? Yes or No?
For the record, I'm not being preachy, it's just a simple fact finding question.

[Ike]

this story is one of those thats rife with stupidity all the way around.


I don't think there is a single person mentioned in it that didn't do something dumb.

[etouffee]

do you believe in Jesus as God? Yes or No?
For the record, I'm not being preachy, it's just a simple fact finding question.Great. It's the new inquisition.

[Scott D]

I only got my diploma because I threatened to sue my high school for attempting to make me pay a fine twice for a book I never had.

[Fugue]

Great. It's the new inquisition.

it's just a simple question.

[1stTimeCaller]

ScottD, you lost it and you know it.


Seriously, we're just talking about her diploma aren't we? We're not talking about them not releasing her transcript so it's no big deal.

[Scott D]

do you believe in Jesus as God? Yes or No?
For the record, I'm not being preachy, it's just a simple fact finding question.

you know how I feel about the 'new testament'.

[Scott D]

ScottD, you lost it and you know it.


Seriously, we're just talking about her diploma aren't we? We're not talking about them not releasing her transcript so it's no big deal.

yeah but for the forces of 'good' it's another time of 'the pc man' tryin' to hold them down ;)

[Fugue]

you know how I feel about the 'new testament'.

He questioned how I thought I could know how he believed and I'm just trying to find out if i'm right or wrong. :eddie:

[Scott D]

He questioned how I thought I could know how he believed and I'm just trying to find out if i'm right or wrong. :eddie:

don't duck me Farinelli lover! :D

[Fugue]

don't duck me Farinelli lover! :D

I knew you were gonna bring that up. :D

[Scott D]

well it's been awhile, plus the n00bs have no idea what I'm talking about :D

[Fugue]

well it's been awhile, plus the n00bs have no idea what I'm talking about :D

unless they are "closet" fans of his. :texan:

[Scott D]

unless they are "closet" fans of his. :texan:

I think slickdawg is, and you know 1tc likes him way more than Jack Ingram. :dean:

[Ike]

just fanning flames....nothing to see here...


The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse) Confess, don't be boring. Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (or your govalt!)
The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquistion (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

"I was sitting in a temple. I was minding my own business.
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass.
Then these Papus persons plungered and they throw me in a dungeon and they shove a red hot poker up my ***.
Is that considerate? Is that polite?
And not a tube of Preperation H in sight!"

"I'm sittin' flickin' chickens and I'm lookin' throught the pickins' and suddenly thes goyim pull down valls.
I didn't even know them and they grabbed my by the stoghum and started playing ping pong with my b*lls!
Ooh, the agony! Ooh, the shame!
To make my privates public for a game?"

The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to-
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way."
"I just got back from the Auto-de-fe."
"Auto-de-fe? What's an Auto-de-fe?"
"It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway."
Will you convert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you confess? "No, no, no, no."
Will you revert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you say yes? "No, no, no, no!"
Now I asked in a nice way, I said, "Pretty please."
I bent their ears, now I'll work on their knees!
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way. We got a little game that you might wanna play, so pull that handle, try you're luck."
"Who knows, Toq, you might win a buck!"

"How we doin', any converts today?"
"Not a one, nay, nay, nay."
"We flattened their fingers, we branded their buns!
Nothing is working! Send in the nuns!"

The Inquisition, what a show.
The Inquisition, here we go.
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away!
So all you Muslims and you Jews
We got big news for all of yous:
You'd better change your point of views TODAY!
'Cause the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

[skycat]

I don't think there is a single person mentioned in it that didn't do something dumb.

That statement is true for most stories.

Especially stories about me trying to talk baseball.:(

[PAW]

I don't think the Bible is vague on whether or not lying is a sin. Do you?

Can you give me that verse that says lying is a sin?

[mdklatt]

Can you give me that verse that says lying is a sin?

It's not?

SWEET!

[Ike]

Can you give me that verse that says lying is a sin?


something about bears and false witnesses


I don't know why they had to work bears into it....seems a little over the top.

[skycat]

something about bears and false witnesses


I don't know why they had to work bears into it....seems a little over the top.

I think it's a couple of verses after they talk about whether the Pope poops in the woods.

[Scott D]

Can you give me that verse that says lying is a sin?


Proverbs 6:16-19 says, "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Gee, that might be kind of hard :rolleyes:

[PAW]

:)

Bearing false witness against your neighbor is not the same thing as lying.

[1stTimeCaller]

:)

Bearing false witness against your neighbor is not the same thing as lying.

Seriously, could you explain the differences to me, it was my brother who went to ORU, I went to OU.

[mdklatt]

Proverbs 6:16-19 says, "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

What about "collateral damage" during a war?

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

First of all...Bears should be pretty much the whole point of the Bible....They are Godless Killing Machines!!! Jesus wasn't sent her to "bear" our sins...he was sent to tell us to kill Bears for their sins!! This Pro-Bear agenda of the current media is beyond me. We teach our kids...oh looks Winnie the Pooh is so sweet and kind...then one day our kids get eat by an evil bear. Ignore the bear threat at your own peril!!

[1stTimeCaller]

What about "collateral damage" during a war?
you have to look at intent

[Scott D]

What about "collateral damage" during a war?

I file that under handcrafted's explanation that humans are born sinners whom have no true chance at redemption.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

What about "collateral damage" during a war?

if you ever wonder at what point a thread falls apart..it was right here ;)

[royalfan5]

All I can say is I bet most of her classmates didn't like her if she carried on like that all the time.

[mdklatt]

you have to look at intent

That proverb doesn't say anything about intent.

It's impossible to have an armed conflict of any significant length without shedding innocent blood. Anybody who condones war is calling for innocent people to be killed. The invididual soldier who accidentally kills someobody is not guilty of that particular sin, but whoever put him in that position is. I'm certainly not a pacifist, and I think war is a necessary evil. However, God doesn't seem to be a "the ends justifies the means" kind of guy.

[1stTimeCaller]

That proverb doesn't say anything about intent.

It's impossible to have an armed conflict of any significant length without shedding innocent blood. Anybody who condones war is calling for innocent people to be killed. The invididual soldier who accidentally kills someobody is not guilty of that particular sin, but whoever put him in that position is. I'm certainly not a pacifist, and I think war is a necessary evil. However, God doesn't seem to be a "the ends justifies the means" kind of guy.

Okay, define an innocent person.

[1stTimeCaller]

what about running swiftly and then accidently breaking something as you round a corner? The proverb doesn't mention accidents either.

[PAW]

Imagine this, if you will. someone's wife asks him if those pants make her *** look fat. He tells her the truth and says, "no honey, it's your *** that makes you look fat." Or, he could do the sane thing and lie. Now, is that lie a sin?

Bearing false witness has to do with lying about what a person has done in order to get them in trouble, for instance, on the witness stand in a trial.

[mdklatt]

Okay, define an innocent person.

Do I really need to? :confused:

[1stTimeCaller]

yes

[mdklatt]

yes

Are you going somewhere with this?

Innocent Person: Some little old lady on her way to the mosque that gets exploderaded by a Mk84 2000 pound bomb dropped on a suspected bunker full of insurgents 100 yards away.

[Scott D]

Imagine this, if you will. someone's wife asks him if those pants make her *** look fat. He tells her the truth and says, "no honey, it's your *** that makes you look fat." Or, he could do the sane thing and lie. Now, is that lie a sin?

according to proverbs...yes.

[Scott D]

That proverb doesn't say anything about intent.

It's impossible to have an armed conflict of any significant length without shedding innocent blood. Anybody who condones war is calling for innocent people to be killed. The invididual soldier who accidentally kills someobody is not guilty of that particular sin, but whoever put him in that position is. I'm certainly not a pacifist, and I think war is a necessary evil. However, God doesn't seem to be a "the ends justifies the means" kind of guy.

once upon a time he was...once upon a time he was. Back when he did his own dirty work.

[1stTimeCaller]

Are you going somewhere with this?

Innocent Person: Some little old lady on her way to the mosque that gets exploderaded by a Mk84 2000 pound bomb dropped on a suspected bunker full of insurgents 100 yards away.

what makes her innocent? because she's old? because she's going to a mosque?

and are Mk84 bombs really 2000 pounds?

I just feel like asking questions and I believe that less than .00001% of the world's population is 'innocent'.

[PAW]

according to proverbs...yes.

I'd have to agree with other posters on the intent issue.

[Scott D]

I'd have to agree with other posters on the intent issue.

that would mean that the scriptures would have grey areas....the strict followers would never agree to that interpretation.

[1stTimeCaller]

don't hitch your wagon to me PAW. I'm like that guy with the really cool obit.


"he was often wrong, but never in doubt".

[PAW]

that would mean that the scriptures would have grey areas....the strict followers would never agree to that interpretation.

Grey areas? Questions of interpretation? You bet. Check out 1 Kings 22:22-23.

[PAW]

don't hitch your wagon to me PAW. I'm like that guy with the really cool obit.

Giddy-up! :D

[Scott D]

but see, it's ok for God to lie, it's not okay for inherently sinful humans to lie. That is part of what the Bible teaches you.

[1stTimeCaller]

Lying approved and sanctioned.
Joshua 2:4-6
And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax.

James 2:25
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.

Exodus 1:18-20
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

1 Kings 22:21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

2 Kings 8:10
And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall



Lying Forbidden
Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Exodus 23:1
Thou shalt not raise a false report.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter.

Leviticus 6:2-4
If a soul ... lie unto his neighbour ... or hath deceived his neighbour ... Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely. ... Then ... he shall restore that which he took.

Leviticus 19:11
Neither lie one to another.

Deuteronomy 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness.

Proverbs 12:22
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.

Proverbs 24:28
Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.

Ephesians 4:25
Wherefore putting away lying, speaking every man truth with his neighbor.

Revelation 21:8
All iars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

seems to be a pretty cool website
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/lie.html

[PAW]

but see, it's ok for God to lie, it's not okay for inherently sinful humans to lie. That is part of what the Bible teaches you.

Okay, where is it okay for God to lie? I missed that part somewhere.

[Scott D]

God has lied at various points in the Bible when it serves his overall purpose. Kind of a "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" mumbo jumbo.

[PAW]

God has lied at various points in the Bible when it serves his overall purpose. Kind of a "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" mumbo jumbo.

I guess I missed those points in the Bible. And I thought I had read it pretty thoroughly.

[mdklatt]

and are Mk84 bombs really 2000 pounds?

I think the entire bomb is just a shade under a ton, but less than half of that is explosive. The case is very heavy and designed to produce lots of shrapnel.



I just feel like asking questions and I believe that less than .00001% of the world's population is 'innocent'.

So it's cool to go around killing random people because they're probably guilty of something?

[Scott D]

I guess I missed those points in the Bible. And I thought I had read it pretty thoroughly.

pretty sure it was decided that God lied through omission or deception to achieve his means in various points. The Phaeroh comes to mind.

[1stTimeCaller]

I think the entire bomb is just a shade under a ton, but less than half of that is explosive. The case is very heavy and designed to produce lots of shrapnel.



So it's cool to go around killing random people because they're probably guilty of something?

with collateral damage? yes.

[Hamhock]

you have to look at intent


you need to look at context. look at what the first 15 versus of the chapter say. Proverbs is describing activity that God dislikes. The versus deal with the heart.

1TC, you should write a Bible commentary.

[Scott D]

I'm going to blow up Dallas to get back at someone from college...I apologize to the rest of you in the metro area for being collateral damage.

[1stTimeCaller]

1TC, you should write a Bible commentary.

i've been shopping publishers.

[mdklatt]

with collateral damage? yes.

So God guides the shrapnel so that only the wicked get killed? Everybody that dies in a war deserves it?

[Hamhock]

I guess I missed those points in the Bible. And I thought I had read it pretty thoroughly.


"...,which God, who cannot lie..." Titus 1:2

[PAW]

you need to look at context. look at what the first 15 versus of the chapter say. Proverbs is describing activity that God dislikes. The versus deal with the heart.

AMEN! Preach on brother!

:D

[1stTimeCaller]

I'm going to blow up Dallas to get back at someone from college...I apologize to the rest of you in the metro area for being collateral damage.

works for me. but you and I honestly know the difference between what you are talking about and the Army Air Corps bombing Berlin.

[soonerscuba]

Everybody that dies in a war deserves it?

If they have accepted Jesus into their hearts, no. If not, yes.

[Hamhock]

So God guides the shrapnel so that only the wicked get killed? Everybody that dies in a war deserves it?


everybody that lives deserves to die

[1stTimeCaller]

So God guides the shrapnel so that only the wicked get killed? Everybody that dies in a war deserves it?
no, maybe, could be I don't know His plan.

Not everybody that dies in a war deserves it.

[Hamhock]

I'm going to blow up Dallas to get back at someone from college...I apologize to the rest of you in the metro area for being collateral damage.


you are describing murder

[PAW]

"...,which God, who cannot lie..." Titus 1:2

Yea, that's the first verse that came to my mind. But even with that, I think God could lie, but it's not in God's character to lie. So, it doesn't happen.

[Scott D]

you are describing murder

oh, so when it's two countries it isn't murder? what was I thinking :rolleyes:

[Hamhock]

Yea, that's the first verse that came to my mind. But even with that, I think God could lie, but it's not in God's character to lie. So, it doesn't happen.


God cannot lie.

Don't get started on "Is God all powerful? Can he make a rock too heavy for Him to pick up?"

[Hamhock]

oh, so when it's two countries it isn't murder? what was I thinking :rolleyes:


so you equate killing in a war to cold blooded murder?

:confused:

[PAW]

God cannot lie.

Don't get started on "Is God all powerful? Can he make a rock too heavy for Him to pick up?"

I wasn't headed there. If it's not in God's character then he can't/won't. It's the same to me.

[1stTimeCaller]

:les: WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?

[Hamhock]

:les: WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?

because i can't tell the difference between cold blooded murder and government involved war, i guess.

[1stTimeCaller]

not you, the other guy, you know , whatshisname.

[Jerk]

If she had acknowledged the role her religion had played in getting her to that point, that would be fine. It's her overt proselytizing that is offensive.


Agreed, Comrad JohnnyMack. Such peoples shoult be senz to da re-education kamps.

[JohnnyMack]

Agreed, Comrad JohnnyMack. Such peoples shoult be senz to da re-education kamps.

What if she had said this:


If it harm none, do what thou wilt. I invite you all to accept the earth, the fire, that water and the air. It is my time spent within the magic circle that has allowed me to achieve this status and I offer blessings to the Goddess as it is through her divinity that I find strength. Come join me now in reading the book of shadows as we find ways to reach the Summerland.

That have been OK?

[Hamhock]

What if she had said this:



That have been OK?


Yes. I think it's called free speech.

People would have laughed at her or written her off as crazy, but her diploma most certainly would not have been withheld. Because, don't you know,the Constitution doesn't provide for freedom of religion, it provides for freedom from Christianity.

[MamaMia]

Its a shame that the world has come to this. I remember the day that non christians would at least have enough manners to ignore christian comments in the spirit of agreeing to disagree. She made the grades. Why not just let her have her moment?

[Hamhock]

What if she had said this:



That have been OK?


Seriously, do you think she would have been meet with the same reaction if she gave her credit to kaballah or scientology?

[mdklatt]

That have been OK?

Did she get it approved first or sneak it in at the last minute because she knew she might saying something she shouldn't be saying?

[JohnnyMack]

Did she get it approved first or sneak it in at the last minute because she knew she might saying something she shouldn't be saying?

She sneaks it in.

[etouffee]

Its a shame that the world has come to this. I remember the day that non christians would at least have enough manners to ignore christian comments in the spirit of agreeing to disagree.
Ok, so you're saying the people who think what she did was inappropriate can't possibly be christians?

[JohnnyMack]

Seriously, do you think she would have been meet with the same reaction if she gave her credit to kaballah or scientology?

You don't think the Christians would have been up in arms if she had talked for a moment about ANY other religion?

[mdklatt]

She sneaks it in.

:les: Smite her down!

[achiro]

Some of you people just need Jesus. JohnnyMack

[Hamhock]

You don't think the Christians would have been up in arms if she had talked for a moment about ANY other religion?


Can't speak for everyone but I wouldn't. If a Christian wants to talk about Christianity, than a Christian needs to earn valedictorian. If a Muslim earns valedictorian, than I better be prepared to hear about allah or don't come to graduation.

I did, previously, forget about the fact that she snuck it in. I don't agree with that. The environment that created her feeling that she had to lie is another story. regardless, the ends don't justify the means.

[etouffee]

You don't think the Christians would have been up in arms if she had talked for a moment about ANY other religion?You're absolutely correct. If she'd said how much of a positve role Islam had played in her life AND that all those in attendance should explore Islam so they can be happy too (cuz that's what she basically said about Jesus, right?), the fundamentalists in Colorado would be demanding that her diploma be held and that she be cast into the street and stoned for such an offensive display.

[mdklatt]

I did, previously, forget about the fact that she snuck it in. I don't agree with that. The environment that created her feeling that she had to lie is another story. regardless, the ends don't justify the means.

Her case would have been stronger, IMO, if she'd been turned down by the administration and started her speech with, "They told me I couldn't talk about my religious beliefs, but I don't think that's right."

But she'd still be SOL because school rules are school rules, no matter how stupid they are.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I feel so bad for us Christians...I mean it has been so hard being in charge since around 400 A.D. We have been so suppressed. I mean why is everyone out to get the ones in charge!!

[Hamhock]

Her case would have been stronger, IMO, if she'd been turned down by the administration and started her speech with, "They told me I couldn't talk about my religious beliefs, but I don't think that's right."

But she'd still be SOL because school rules are school rules, no matter how stupid they are.


i agree.


eww..that was icky ;)

[MamaMia]

Ok, so you're saying the people who think what she did was inappropriate can't possibly be christians? Maybe if you took a deep breath, cleared your mind and tried reading what I said again real slow, it might help you to understand. :)

[JohnnyMack]

Its a shame that the world has come to this. I remember the day that non christians would at least have enough manners to ignore christian comments in the spirit of agreeing to disagree. She made the grades. Why not just let her have her moment?

If a Wiccan were to earn Valedictorian honors and spoke on how the Goddess, the elements and such had helped her and that she would like all in attendance to give her form of Worship a try, how long do you think the line would be of offended Baptist momma's trying to get a moment of the Principal's ear?

[JohnnyMack]

Some of you people just need Jesus. JohnnyMack

http://the-kiter.de/pics/jesussaves.gif

[Boarder]

You don't think the Christians would have been up in arms if she had talked for a moment about ANY other religion?
No. If she would have inserted Joseph Smith, for example, I would have disagrred with her, but not been offended.

That's the problem...people are too easily offended. Just let it go.

I still haven't seen if it was agianst some sort of rule or not. It's kind of a gray area on whether or not she had to say word for word what was on her draft. I didn't stick to my draft perfectly and I know of a bunch who didn't.

But...if there was a rule against it, and she broke it, she did wrong in this case. At the very least, she went about it wrong...kind of like the lady who sold Sic 'Em the iPod putting Video in the title.

[Boarder]

If a Wiccan were to earn Valedictorian honors and spoke on how the Goddess, the elements and such had helped her and that she would like all in attendance to give her form of Worship a try, how long do you think the line would be of offended Baptist momma's trying to get a moment of the Principal's ear?
There probably would be some. That's absolutely true. It would be wrong of them to do that, if they did.

[etouffee]

Maybe if you took a deep breath, cleared your mind and tried reading what I said again real slow, it might help you to understand. :)nope, didn't work. perhaps you could spell it out.

[etouffee]

http://the-kiter.de/pics/jesussaves.gif
boy, france coulda used him during those penalty kicks, huh?

[MamaMia]

If a Wiccan were to earn Valedictorian honors and spoke on how the Goddess, the elements and such had helped her and that she would like all in attendance to give her form of Worship a try, how long do you think the line would be of offended Baptist momma's trying to get a moment of the Principal's ear?I dont know how long the line would be. It would be fun to guess amongst yourselves though, and make the loser buy snow cones for everyone. :P

[Boarder]

nope, didn't work. perhaps you could spell it out.
Wow, dude. You're seriously the most defensive person not named dbhuge I've ever seen. Just because she said that doesn't mean that EVERYONE who disagreed with her (valedictorian girl) was a non-Christian.

However, her (Mom) pleas for everyone to lighten up seem to be directed at you, and rightfully so. Lighten up. Stop being so offended at everything. I understand being in such close vicinity of :les: could make someone on edge.

[etouffee]

i'm not remotely offended by anything here. i'm just asking questions. why does that bother you so much?

[JohnnyMack]

I dont know how long the line would be. It would be fun to guess amongst yourselves though, and make the loser buy Chimay for everyone. :P

<burp>

Fixed.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Yeah, if this girl was Arab and started, Tuba would have posted pictures and said something about how un-American this girl was :)

[Newbomb Turk]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread.
How many people at this graduation were offended by what she said?

[Sooner_Bob]

I file that under handcrafted's explanation that humans are born sinners whom have no true chance at redemption.


so we're not born sinners? :confused:



sweeet.

[Hamhock]

so we're not born sinners? :confused:



sweeet.


nope. God loves you and just wants you to be happy.

[PAW]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread.
How many people at this graduation were offended by what she said?

I'm thinking it was just the administration.

[Sooner_Bob]

nope. God loves you and just wants you to be happy.


so it's all about me . . . cool.
















:P

[Jerk]

If some girl wants to talk about how great allah is, or some other girl is a witch and talks about merlock, or some girl believes in Jesus, that's all good. I believe in freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. People need to just not be so easily offended by it.

[Stoop Dawg]

I skipped the last few pages, but it appeared that it was going like this:

No one is innocent, so it's okay to kill pretty much anyone.
Lying is not a sin - sometimes.

Maybe I need to give this Christianity thing another shot. Back in my youth I had no idea that you were allowed to be so cavalier in Biblical interpretations.

[Stoop Dawg]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread.
How many people at this graduation were offended by what she said?

If I had to guess, none.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

nope. God has low self esteem and just wants you to worship him at all times because if you don't he gets angry and sentences people to torture much worse than Gitmo. Btw, If a man kills and tortures people that don't worship up him, he is a dictator and murderer


Fixed it ;)

[Sooner in Tampa]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread.
How many people at this graduation were offended by what she said?
The principle was offended. None of the students have publicly said one way or the other.

There are no rule governing the speeches by students at graduation but because of this, they may rethink that.

She knew the administration would not like what she said, so she omitted it from her draft that she submitted...BAD.

She threw a little blurb in her speech about Jesus Christ...No HARM.

The principle overreacted.

End of story.

[sanantoniosooner]

The principle was offended. None of the students have publicly said one way or the other.

There are no rule governing the speeches by students at graduation but because of this, they may rethink that.

She knew the administration would not like what she said, so she omitted it from her draft that she submitted...BAD.

She threw a little blurb in her speech about Jesus Christ...No HARM.

The principle overreacted.

End of story.
He's your PAL...........thus principal.

[Boarder]

i'm not remotely offended by anything here. i'm just asking questions. why does that bother you so much?
Naw, that's pretty much wrong. Your post (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1439950&postcount=125) reeked of "You Talkin' To ME?!?!"

You always have to chime in that you may or may not be a Christian and may or may not be offended at what may or may not have happened on any and every subject.

You really should lighten up. The fact that you do that makes you out to be either offended at most things or just argumentative. Or, just waaay to defensive, like I said before.

Either way...lightening up would be good for you. That's all I really want you to hear. Relax.