My plan to save Public Education in Oklahoma...

[Big Red Ron]

Tell me what you think...

First, we pay teachers based on results.

Second, we make HS seniors pass a "graduation test" to actually recieve their diploma. If they fail, they must take their senior year over.

Third, we end "summer break." I know this sounds crazy but follow me. Kids these days don't pick crops and help work the land like they used to. Three months without school hurts the student. Most juvenile crime occures during summer breaks. A twelve month school calander would also be a great benifit for lower to middle class families who must pay for child care over the summer.

American and Oklahoman children deserve the very best education for the amount of money that we spend on it. IMHO, there isn't any way that our students should be less educated than their counterparts in other countries.

[royalfan5]

One question on that, how would you determine results, would it be uniform across the board standards? Would teachers who go to crappy schools get paid more if they delievered results there than in an already established quality school?

[Frozen Sooner]

The 12 month school year is something I really agree with, and many of the good teachers I know are all for it.

For one thing, it would eliminate the ignorant "You only work 9 months" argument. For another, it would greatly increase the amount of time available to shoehorn knowledge into the little beggar's heads. A 12 month school year would also eliminate the wasted two months that are spent with kids paying no attention as summer comes up and having kids relearn everything they forgot over the summer.

[Big Red Ron]

One question on that, how would you determine results, would it be uniform across the board standards? Would teachers who go to crappy schools get paid more if they delivered results there than in an already established quality school?I think you could look at "relative standards" but then you get into one of those semi-racist or socioeconomic stereotypes arguments. Kids are kids, a good teacher can teach almost anyone.

[royalfan5]

I think you could look at "relative standards" but then you get into one of those semi-racist or socioeconomic stereotypes arguments. Kids are kids, a good teacher can teach almost anyone.
When it comes down to it, you will have establish some sort of system of metrics for merit pay, that can be fairly and objectively admisinstered. If you cannot do that, merit would not succeed over the long haul. If you fail to be objective and fair with your metric, you will have trouble with retaining your best teachers, and getting good teachers where they are needed.

[Ike]

totally agree...

I would want a solid definition of "results" on which teachers get paid, but yeah, its not unreasonable at all.

[OCUDad]

Exit exams are already implemented in some states - e.g., California. Controversial, but in general seen as a good thing.

12-month school year -- good idea. Might want to mix a little real-world work into the curriculum to give kids a break from constant study to actually apply learning to non-academic situations.

The "pay for results" argument is seductive in the abstract, but runs the risk of spawning a "results measurement" bureaucracy in an already bureaucratic system. Plus, there will be long unresolved arguments over the validity of any metrics proposed. Given the state of public education in the US, not just Oklahoma, probably ain't ever going to happen.

[royalfan5]

One other thing with year around school, where is the extra money for operations type stuff going to come from, HVAC, fuel for buses, paying hourly staff going to come from? Would Oklahoma need to boost taxes or do they have another source to tap for that cash. In Nebraska some schools have shifted to 4-day week to save operational money.

[ChickSoonerFan]

Several schools here already do all year round school...not exactly sure of the schedule, they get periodic breaks through-out the year of 2-3 weeks at a time. I can't imagine how hard it would be to find childcare to cover off periods when set up like that but I agree the long summer break makes it hard for children to start back up and get focused on learning in the fall.

[Okla-homey]

Year round school is probably indicated. The "summer off" dealio is an anachronistic throwback to when kids were needed in the farm fields and schools were'nt air conditioned. Kids aren't needed in the fields anymore (we have messicans for that) and there is whole lot more carp we need to be stuffing into the kids' heads now. They also forget stuff over the summer because many parents don't expect kids to <gasp!> read over the summer.

Finally, it would give a break to a lot of families who find themselves strapped trying to arrange childcare for the little boogers who otherwise would be home and unsupervised eating cheesy-poofs and smoking cigarettes while glued to their x-boxes all summer.

[King Crimson]

as far as "results" for $, this will favor those who teach in higher socio-economic status schools. it sounds good to the ears because it resembles "free market" logic, but it's not plausible unless you want to continue to reward schools that already have decided advantages in almost all evaluation criteria.

AND: if you have ever taught a course yourself, you know student performance is not anything that is a direct result of teacher skill. it sounds good to say it, but it's not the way it is. education is not going out to eat where the server deserves a good tip or doesn't.

[Big Red Ron]

totally agree...

I would want a solid definition of "results" on which teachers get paid, but yeah, its not unreasonable at all.I think everyone should get the basic financial package. A combination of test scores, drop out rates and honors student application acceptance would be a good start. Without some type of formula though we are simply throwing money at poor teachers and not paying the great ones enough.

[BajaOklahoma]

We have had exit exams in tejas for years. The name of the test just keeps changing. The exit exam is given as a junior and you have three chances to pass it. The testing actually begins in third grade - to familiarize the kids with the format, to make sure that basic skills are learned and passing some of the tests are now required to go on to the next grade.

We ended school the 23rd of May and the kids start back on August 9th. We get a fall break, which is awesome. Unfortunately, the people in South Tejas got a law passed that we can't start back to school before the third week in August because they were losing tourist bucks. (Boycott Padre!)
So this is our last year to be able to start this early. It does help the kids retain the basic knowledge - we saw a major change in assessment scores the first year the early start was implemented.

You do realize that teacher contracts are based on paying for 185 days (or so)? So prepare to spend more money. Most teachers would be okay with it - they just wouldn't have to find a summer job. And hey, our retirement benefits would be higher too. :)

[SicEmBaylor]

Tell me what you think...

First, we pay teachers based on results.

Second, we make HS seniors pass a "graduation test" to actually recieve their diploma. If they fail, they must take their senior year over.

Third, we end "summer break." I know this sounds crazy but follow me. Kids these days don't pick crops and help work the land like they used to. Three months without school hurts the student. Most juvenile crime occures during summer breaks. A twelve month school calander would also be a great benifit for lower to middle class families who must pay for child care over the summer.

American and Oklahoman children deserve the very best education for the amount of money that we spend on it. IMHO, there isn't any way that our students should be less educated than their counterparts in other countries.

I agree with all of that. I would add several things to it, but I think you're definitely on the right track.

[Big Red Ron]

as far as "results" for $, this will favor those who teach in higher socio-economic status schools. it sounds good to the ears because it resembles "free market" logic, but it's not plausible unless you want to continue to reward schools that already have decided advantages in almost all evaluation criteria.

AND: if you have ever taught a course yourself, you know student performance is not anything that is a direct result of teacher skill. it sounds good to say it, but it's not the way it is. education is not going out to eat where the server deserves a good tip or doesn't.I have taught a course and frequently lecture on a variety of topics. A teacher, a good teacher can reach kids regardless os socioeconomic standards. Every child in China lives below the poverty level but they seem to be able to teach.

I would also throw school uniforms into the mix to help remove the distraction of "who's got what" within the social universe of public education.

[BajaOklahoma]

Several schools here already do all year round school...not exactly sure of the schedule, they get periodic breaks through-out the year of 2-3 weeks at a time. I can't imagine how hard it would be to find childcare to cover off periods when set up like that but I agree the long summer break makes it hard for children to start back up and get focused on learning in the fall.

Our school district has started up an after school daycare (for $$$). They are open for most week days that the school is closed.
And the day cares in our area are aware of the school schedule. They simply hire temporary high school workers to help with the intermittent floods of kids. It really hasn't been the problem everyone thought it would be.

[SicEmBaylor]

One question on that, how would you determine results, would it be uniform across the board standards? Would teachers who go to crappy schools get paid more if they delievered results there than in an already established quality school?

This goes back to the evaluation system. I'm not totally sure how such an evaluation system would work beyond the fact that I like the idea of having something.

But to answer your question, in an evaluation, it should be obvious that a teacher who brings a group of otherwise failing students up to par or better has had a greater degree of success than a teacher who keep a class of honor students passing.

It's not to say that the teacher with the honors students isn't a good teacher, but there is less progress there to evaluate.

[jk the sooner fan]

my kids were in year round schools in kentucky when i was stationed at fort knox........personally i didnt care for it and whether any of you here care about it or not, it creates a burden for lower income families (2 working parents or just a single mom type deal) having to find day care for 3 weeks at a time

there is a summer break, i think i remember it being about 6-7 weeks....

i think its funny somebody would suggest a test after all the crap the kids/test in texas catch

[royalfan5]

I think everyone should get the basic financial package. A combination of test scores, drop out rates and honors student application acceptance would be a good start. Without some type of formula though we are simply throwing money at poor teachers and not paying the great ones enough.
Would you use the same package regardless of school size? For example I went to a small rural school in Nebraska. I would guess you still have a few of these in Oklahoma, since there is a Nebraska-Oklahoma 8-man all-star game. In a small school situation, results can very widely from year to year with the same teacher. For example my class or 14 people always posted outstanding results on standardized tests, the class of 12 behind always did very poorly as a group with the exact same teachers. If teachers new they had a class that was going to cost them money where, why would they stick around?

[SicEmBaylor]

The "pay for results" argument is seductive in the abstract, but runs the risk of spawning a "results measurement" bureaucracy in an already bureaucratic system. Plus, there will be long unresolved arguments over the validity of any metrics proposed. Given the state of public education in the US, not just Oklahoma, probably ain't ever going to happen.

You set up a stair-step evaluation system so it doesn't become too burecratic at any one level.

For example, you let the local school districts evaluate the individual performance of a teacher. The state doesn't evaluate the teacher, but it evaluates how well the school as a whole is performing. You let the individual school district decide for itself the best way for obtaining positive results and deal with issues that are keeping their school from achieving those results.

[Big Red Ron]

Kids shouldn't graduate from HS just to take remedial courses in College. It almost seems like a scam for higher ed. It is unacceptable!

[SicEmBaylor]

my kids were in year round schools in kentucky when i was stationed at fort knox........personally i didnt care for it and whether any of you here care about it or not, it creates a burden for lower income families (2 working parents or just a single mom type deal) having to find day care for 3 weeks at a time

there is a summer break, i think i remember it being about 6-7 weeks....

i think its funny somebody would suggest a test after all the crap the kids/test in texas catch

The problem with the Texas tests is that you can't just throw a standardized test into school policy without other reforms that are needed for those standardized tests to work. That's the problem I've seen with the Texas testing.

[royalfan5]

It's not to say that the teacher with the honors students isn't a good teacher, but there is less progress there to evaluate.
That's where you will have problems, because you won't be able to have a fair uniform system for everybody. Those situations are the type you study in Org Behavior, and they ask you why your incentive plan didn't succeed. Motivating people with money doesn't consistently yield the results one would think it does.

[King Crimson]

I have taught a course and frequently lecture on a variety of topics. A teacher, a good teacher can reach kids regardless os socioeconomic standards. Every child in China lives below the poverty level but they seem to be able to teach.



i think you are really naive to think that SES isn't going to have an effect on public school performance across the board. and if performance is the criteria for payment, it stands to reason that no teacher would disadvantage themselves to teach at low SES high schools.

JMO.

[King Crimson]

either a society values education or it doesn't. increasingly, this appears to be one that doesn't. and appears to have political hostility to higher education in particular.

[Ike]

either a society values education or it doesn't. increasingly, this appears to be one that doesn't. and appears to have political hostility to higher education in particular.

I hate to admit it, but this does have quite a bit of truth to it. Look no further than the people our society places up on pedastals. Athletes, movie stars, music stars...to a very very large portion of our society, these people are far more well known than the top lawyers, doctors, scientists, and even politicians (most of whom are pretty smart) out there. As a society, we tend to value entertainment much more than we value intelligence or education.

[SoonerInKCMO]

The "summer off" dealio is an anachronistic throwback to when kids were needed in the farm fields and schools were'nt air conditioned.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! You're telling me that schools are air-conditioned these days? Those little bastards. :mad:

[usmc-sooner]

I like having my kids home during the summer.

Cheap labor.

But I agree with pretty much everything BRR first posted.

[StoopTroup]

Give me a tax credit for the money my child saves by going to a Private School and I'll let you teachers continue to have the summer off and give you 5 more paid Holidays. :D

[Jerk]

Good lord. No Summer break? When I was a wee lad, I LIVED for summer break. Do you guys hate boys?

Plus, a middle school would reak of B.O. in July.

[PrideTrombone]

This past year was my first as a teacher. I'd never needed a summer break more in my life. :) It gets to be draining, no matter how much you like teaching (and I really do). Other than that, I'm on board.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Plus do you realize how little parents would know their kids. There is so many parents who consider school daycare....so they send their kid whether they have the flu, diarrhea, or even like chicken pox. The Perfect Attendance award is the biggest joke in the world...it's like "yea this kid came to school and made all of the other kids deathly sick" The only time a parent has to spend with there kid is when they are stuck with them all summer....

[OUinFLA]

Before you propose some of your ideas, please investigate the Florida Comprehenisve Testing program that was instituted several years ago and is still in use. Most teachers and parents are not real happy with it. HS students must take and pass the FCAT test before the last semester of their Sr. year. Not passing the test results in not getting your HS diploma.

It sounds good on paper, but...........

Schools are graded on their ability to get students educated enough to pass the FCAT test. Funds are controled and teachers are graded as well on the results.

The really bad part of the well intentioned idea is............many many teachers begin to teach their students "to pass the FCAT" and dont spend as much time giving them the education they should be getting on the subject being taught. Some of the students in the class are being cheated out of their potential learing experience due to the mixture within the class of those who need extra time to learn the FCAT fundamentals in order to pass the test.

I am not so sure it is a very good idea, and Im sure a bit of searching the internet will give you a lot of different viewpoints.

[XingTheRubicon]

For one thing, it would eliminate the ignorant "You only work 9 months" argument.


I know, I can't stand when people say that. It's more like 7 1/2 months...



;)

[Jerk]

I'm tellin' ya, some of my best childhood memories would be non-existant if it weren't for summer vacation. The trips to Grand Lake. The condo in Snowmass we had during the oil boom. Camping out in the Teton's in August. You people are cruel. Just cruel. Hey, I turned out okay. I got me a truck drivn' diploma and a CDL (Certified Dumb & Lazy) and I drive the big rigs making good money ... sh*tfire! Even got me indoor plumbing and a color TV. Who needs skool?

[OUinFLA]

Addressing the year round school system.
In Florida, the voters passed into a law two years ago a law limiting "class size". I believe it is 20 in the HS, MS levels. This has caused many school districts to go about bankrupt. Of course they wont go bankrupt, they will just raise taxes.

In a continually growing population such as Florida has (about 1000 new residents per day last time I checked) School facilities and school classroom overcrowding is always going to be a problem.

My county decided to attempt to solve the problem by instituting year round classes. Another fiasco IMO. What they went to was tri-mesters. I cant remember the exact schedule, but kids get 3 weeks off between each tri-mester.

Also, in their infinate wisdom, not all schools are on the tri-mester program. and the private schools are not on it at all. In my city, we have several private schools, elementary, ms and hs as well.

The huge problem is for parents of multi-aged children in schools that have different schedules. I have heard of parents with 3 kids, one in each of elementary, middle school, and high school. And one or two of them being on the tri-mester program. It drives them absolutly crazy trying to deal with daycare, school schedules, work schedules, and vacations are a thing of the past.

All of this is being done to maximize the use of available facilities without having to build new schools continuously. There is always a new school under construction in our city.

To address the school bus situation, the HS kids start class at 7 am, the MS kids start at 8 am, and the elementary kids start at 9 am. The the HS gets out at 2, the MS at 3 and the elem at 4. That way the same bus drivers make the same routes 3 times each morning and 3 times each afternoon.

I would assume if your state's population is not quite as dynamic as Florida's is, then you might be able to plan on a more stable school population and build a system easier than we are able to.

[OUinFLA]

One more idea I would propose for those of you "really" concerned about the education level in your home state.

I do not remember which state it was, Im thinking Washington or Oregon passed a state law recently. The basis of the law stated that in reference to school budget expences, a school district could not spend more than 30% of its budget on administrative positions. The bulk of the remainder was to go to teacher's saleries.

My best friend's daughter is a teacher and he stays more in tune to the school budget than I do, but he informed me that our administrative saleries were far above that level, and teacher's pay suffered because of it.

Although teachers make far more than they did when I got out of college, I am of the opinion if you want to improve the standard of education in your state, you better be willing to pay the teachers a salary they can not only live on, but live on fairly well. Otherwise, you lose them to industry faster than you can replace them with competent individuals who can educate your children.

I know that is an age old problem, losing teachers to industry, but perhaps today more importantly than before, I feel the quality of the student exiting HS may be of extreme importance. We are losing our ability to manufacture product economically to third world countries with cheap labor, I certainly hope we do not lose out on individuals who can create new products and ideas as well as staff our hospitals, courtrooms, and political arenas at the same time.

http://floridasportsman.com/art/soap.gif

[Mrs. Norm]

I agree, in part. I would have no problem working all year. I know people who do this, and they still get their "mental breaks". I think they go for 6 weeks, then 1 week off (or something similar). Again, I would have no problem. I believe the kids would definitely get more out of this. My students leave for the summer and they forget everything we've taught them! I also think evaluations should definitely be on students/teachers performance.

[Soonrboy]

There's several different ways to do year round schools. The nine weeks on, 3 weeks off is the most popular. I've heard of some districts going 4 days a week all year long.

Most of the teachers I know would love to work through out the year. Hell, most of them get a second job to supplement the income anyways. But, there's going to have to be more money for the wages. Teachers are paid for working 180 days out of the year. They can arrange their paychecks so that that pay comes through out the whole year, but their contract is not year long. They don't get paid summer vacations, much to the delusion of many people.

I sway back and forth about merit pay. I work in a high hispanic area of town. We make great progress with the kids we have. However, my school will never score higher on standardized test schools than the Edmond, Norman, Deer Creek schools, for example. Simply for the fact that these kids are dealing with dual languages, and just do not have the background knowledge that most kids come to school with. Kids who have real life experiences are at an advantage because that is what teachers can build on. The lowest test scores we have are always going to be in anything having to do with vocabulary, which affects reading, thus affecting math, science, social studies.

I put forth that a teacher who works in a class of 27 kids, most of which come from a dual language family (and usually are poor) has a much harder job than a teacher at Roosevelt Elementary in Norman teaching Stoop's kids or Toby Keith's kids or being surrounded by huge houses. We are going to reward teachers whose kids are going to score well on a standardized test no matter who's standing in front of the classroom? Not fair.

[Mrs. Norm]

There's several different ways to do year round schools. The nine weeks on, 3 weeks off is the most popular. I've heard of some districts going 4 days a week all year long.

Most of the teachers I know would love to work through out the year. Hell, most of them get a second job to supplement the income anyways. But, there's going to have to be more money for the wages. Teachers are paid for working 180 days out of the year. They can arrange their paychecks so that that pay comes through out the whole year, but their contract is not year long. They don't get paid summer vacations, much to the delusion of many people.

I sway back and forth about merit pay. I work in a high hispanic area of town. We make great progress with the kids we have. However, my school will never score higher on standardized test schools than the Edmond, Norman, Deer Creek schools, for example. Simply for the fact that these kids are dealing with dual languages, and just do not have the background knowledge that most kids come to school with. Kids who have real life experiences are at an advantage because that is what teachers can build on. The lowest test scores we have are always going to be in anything having to do with vocabulary, which affects reading, thus affecting math, science, social studies.

I put forth that a teacher who works in a class of 27 kids, most of which come from a dual language family (and usually are poor) has a much harder job than a teacher at Roosevelt Elementary in Norman teaching Stoop's kids or Toby Keith's kids or being surrounded by huge houses. We are going to reward teachers whose kids are going to school well on a standardized test no matter who's standing in front of the classroom? Not fair.

I totally agree! I also work in a school which is 85% Hispanic; 100% FREE lunch...not reduced, but FREE!! Our scores are lucky to be what they are. I had several 6th graders start the year reading at 3rd or 4th grade levels. Why?? They started kindergarten speaking Spanish ONLY. They have Spanish television channels, radio stations, and their parents speak ONLY Spanish. Forget about teaching them letters, colors, or books. We start our kids by making them understand "sit quietly", "go to the bathroom", "treat others nicely", "no screaming".....in ENGLISH!

Year round schools would help, though. They wouldn't go to Mexico during the summer and forget everything we taught them. However, most of our parents would take their kids during the summer anyway so that they would go to Mexico.

[olevetonahill]

Do what you want with the rest of the year , But make sure they are out of school for Deer season in the Fall and turkey in the spring ;)