Teacher "raises"

[Mrs. Norm]

As some of you might know, Gov. Henry signed a bill to give ALL teachers a
"3,000 across the board raise". Sounds great, doesn't it? However, as a teacher, I'm very confused. I have been told 2 things:

1. The district that the teachers work for decide what to do with that money. Basically, the state gives each district the money for raises in their budget. Then, that district "decides" how to spend the money. I guess OKC gave raises by seniority the last time this happened. Therefore, not ALL teachers will get $3,000.

2. Some districts already pay their teachers above the state average. If that is the case, the district can use that money however they want. Unions usually get involved to get teachers some of the money.

Is this what Gov. Henry meant by "$3,000 across the board raise"???? All I know is that it is going to tick me off if I end up getting nothing because my district already pays me enough.

If you know anything different about this, please let me know.

[SicEmBaylor]

I don't know the details of all of this beyond the state employees/teacher pay raise being a compromise between the House tax-cuts and Hobson's wage increases.

Anywhoo,
Here is what I would assume.


As some of you might know, Gov. Henry signed a bill to give ALL teachers a
"3,000 across the board raise". Sounds great, doesn't it? However, as a teacher, I'm very confused. I have been told 2 things:

1. The district that the teachers work for decide what to do with that money. Basically, the state gives each district the money for raises in their budget. Then, that district "decides" how to spend the money. I guess OKC gave raises by seniority the last time this happened. Therefore, not ALL teachers will get $3,000.

The exact amount will probably vary district to district, but if the state has mandated that those funds distributed to the districts be used for wage increases then wage increases is what you should get.


2. Some districts already pay their teachers above the state average.

If that is the case, the district can use that money however they want. Unions usually get involved to get teachers some of the money.

That's interesting then. So if that be the case why not distribute the funds to those districts paying at or below the average and completely cut out the districts already paying their teachers above averages?


Is this what Gov. Henry meant by "$3,000 across the board raise"???? All I know is that it is going to tick me off if I end up getting nothing because my district already pays me enough.

If you know anything different about this, please let me know.

"Across the board", theoretically means that every teacher regardless of district, current wage, and tenure should see a salary increase.

Let me also says this, and I say this with the upmost degree of respect to Mrs. Norm and her benevolent husband who wields the ban hammer.

Teachers unions should be cut out of the process entirely. Education in general should be privatized. Short of either of those things happening, district administration staff should be reduced and teachers should be VERY strictly and routinely evaluated to determine the success at which they are teaching students. Any teacher not up to snuff and not improving should be fired. Small class size taught by a lousy *** teacher is not better than a very large class taught by an excellent teacher.

Teacher pay should be based on merit and merit alone. I don't mind paying teachers more as long as we cut the ones who are not up to par and reward the ones who are good at their job.

Finally, to be frank, teachers are paid a bit more than they otherwise should be. I'm going to get negged up the *** for this comment but as hard as teachers work it's nothing compared to a labor intensive year-round job. I don't know of too many other jobs that get 2-3 months of vacation every year. If teachers TRULY wanted to paid more then they would demand that education be privatized, although, that would mean performance based pay and less vacation every year.

[Mrs. Norm]

I agree with some of your statements, SicEm. First of all, I really don't have an opinion about my union. I really haven't seen a lot from them. I also agree that some teachers do not deserve a raise. I have teachers in my school that shouldn't be there, let alone get a raise.

However, I do not agree that teachers are getting paid more than they should. I know some people think that teachers get to work around 8 and get off at 3. WRONG!! Most of us get there at 7:15, don't leave until around 4:30....and take papers home EVERY night to grade. Plus, they spend hours setting up lessons. During the school year, I am lucky to stop working at 10:00 or 11:00 at night. On the weekends, I'm grading and writing plans. If we didn't have summers off, there would be no teachers.

I'm not saying that the breaks aren't great; they really are. However, we work very, very hard during the year to get the break we need.

[OUHOMER]

I have to agree with SicEm, When i was a young man, I move in with my real dad and when to OKC schools.. I hate to say they did not care but they sucked. Went back to my original school and was kicked out for 1/2 a year and had to go to night school at U.S. Grant HS. I am telling you these teachers would not stand up to an actual performance based review.

As far as not working year round, they need time off after dealing with kids like me..

[Mrs. Norm]

Being an OKC school teacher, I will say this. My son would NEVER go to an OKC school. In my building, I would say about 6 of our 27 teachers are awesome educators. The rest of them are HORRIBLE!!! My students actually scored satisfactory on their achievement tests and their reading levels soared! I had 3 students (6th grade) score Post High School in reading. What I did was what I was taught to do. I engaged the students in conversation; told them they would succeed; and worked my butt off. Most of the other teachers pass out worksheets ALL DAY. The students do nothing but busy work. Then they don't understand why their scores are bad.

[BajaOklahoma]

Double post - sorry.

[BajaOklahoma]

Baja bait, ummm, Sic'em, my former friend.....



I can't get the smilies to work.

[oumartin]

well I'm not lumping you teachers on this board into this category but I've overheard many a young teacher say they got into the profession because of the holidays and summer off. Plus they knew it wasn't a lucrative profession when they got into it..

[Mrs. Norm]

well I'm not lumping you teachers on this board into this category but I've overheard many a young teacher say they got into the profession because of the holidays and summer off. Plus they knew it wasn't a lucrative profession when they got into it..

The teachers I know that got into the profession BECAUSE OF the holidays/summer do not like their job.

[BajaOklahoma]

Mrs. Norm, we are also getting an across the board raise down here. It is designated for salaries, so it must go to salaries. The districts may determine exactly who gets what.

Sic'em, pass a security check and I would love to have you come observe a classroom all day. If it is so easy, feel free to do crowd control AND teach them something. Be sure to follow state and district guidelines on what you can and can't say, also take into account the needs and feelings of each of the darlings in your class. And if you mess up, you will hear about it from the district higher ups, your principal, your team and the parents. And you have to be creative. Before and after school, and often during your lunchtime, you get to tutor the kids who don't get it. And don't forget playground duty, bus lines, etc. Make sure that the kids get whatever items the parents forgot to send with them that morning. Watch how much and what each child is eating - Susie is allergic to peanuts, you know. And Sam isn't himself today - don't forget to mention it to the parents ASAP. During planning time, return the phonecalls from parents with questions, attend meetings, and have parent conferences. Don't forget to monitor the behavior of each of the kids, even when they are away from the classroom (bathroom, library, playground when it isn't your day for outside duty). Make sure that each child writes down their assignments and takes home the correct books. And you'd better make sure that each child leaves the school with the correct person, going the correct place.

So school is out, time to go home? You wish. More meetings - team planning (the general schedule for the week is made in advance, but you have to tweak it daily due to outside forces, so you meet daily anyway), district (to keep up with the latest and greatest), tutoring (not for extra money, just for the at risk kids), grading papers, noting who owes you work, check on students who were absent, clean the room, get supplies/papers ready for the next day. You may have forms to fill out for the doctors of special needs kids or individual educational plan meeting to attend.
Did you remember to smile all day? Did you ask about Mary's sick pet and Lizzie's game last night?
We have a couple of parents who live across the street from the school. They have asked our teachers to call them before they leave the building - the dads will come over and walk them to their cars and help carry stuff out. They are so nice and wonderful role models for their kids.

I am not a teacher, but I work in a school. There are some bad teachers, but there are some worse parents out there. Our district wastes its time with stupid lawsuits (and those parents/kids did go to my school :0 ), which is a huge stress for a teacher. Parents don't get the big picture, get mad and take it out on the teacher before finding out the facts (I'm sorry doesn't make up for you said and did during the screamfest). Kids come to school not dressed appropriately for the weather or activities (can't run in sandals, duh), homework not done, no breakfast, and bad attitudes.

As for evaluating teachers, find a great tool and you will be a hero. If it is too subjective, a principal can keep his friends and run off those he doesn't like (even if everyone else says they are a great teacher). If you rely only on test scores, how do factor in the teacher's for special ed whose kids may not be capable of learning or whose growth isn't measured on the tests (potty training, ability to chew and eat their lunch, following directions, able to sit in a regular classroom for short periods without disrupting the class).

I get paid for working 185 days/year. I will be back before the district says I have to be back, just so I can get things ready to start. There are teachers who go in on the weekends to prepare - there's only one copy machine in the building and the line gets long. My pay/day sounds good. Whne you figure it on the hourly rate, it drops dramatically. And don't even start asking about the moeny that I spend out of my pocket each year. I lie to my husband, so he doesn't mad about it. And these are not fluffy extras, they are basic things.

And guess what? Only teachers are prohibited from getting both their teacher retirement (which they pay into) and social security (which they paid into at their second job). If you paid into both and qualified for both, you should get both.

<sigh> My fingers are tired and I know that I've not changed anyone's mind. I just feel the need to try. Rant over.

[JohnnyMack]

Somebody, somewhere got mad at me once because I called Oklahoma a backwards state. I still say I was right.

[Mrs. Norm]

Mrs. Norm, we are also getting an across the board raise down here. It is designated for salaries, so it must go to salaries. The districts may determine exactly who gets what.

Sic'em, pass a security check and I would love to have you come observe a classroom all day. If it is so easy, feel free to do crowd control AND teach them something. Be sure to follow state and district guidelines on what you can and can't say, also take into account the needs and feelings of each of the darlings in your class. And if you mess up, you will hear about it from the district higher ups, your principal, your team and the parents. And you have to be creative. Before and after school, and often during your lunchtime, you get to tutor the kids who don't get it. And don't forget playground duty, bus lines, etc. Make sure that the kids get whatever items the parents forgot to send with them that morning. Watch how much and what each child is eating - Susie is allergic to peanuts, you know. And Sam isn't himself today - don't forget to mention it to the parents ASAP. During planning time, return the phonecalls from parents with questions, attend meetings, and have parent conferences. Don't forget to monitor the behavior of each of the kids, even when they are away from the classroom (bathroom, library, playground when it isn't your day for outside duty). Make sure that each child writes down their assignments and takes home the correct books. And you'd better make sure that each child leaves the school with the correct person, going the correct place.

So school is out, time to go home? You wish. More meetings - team planning (the general schedule for the week is made in advance, but you have to tweak it daily due to outside forces, so you meet daily anyway), district (to keep up with the latest and greatest), tutoring (not for extra money, just for the at risk kids), grading papers, noting who owes you work, check on students who were absent, clean the room, get supplies/papers ready for the next day. You may have forms to fill out for the doctors of special needs kids or individual educational plan meeting to attend.
Did you remember to smile all day? Did you ask about Mary's sick pet and Lizzie's game last night?
We have a couple of parents who live across the street from the school. They have asked our teachers to call them before they leave the building - the dads will come over and walk them to their cars and help carry stuff out. They are so nice and wonderful role models for their kids.

I am not a teacher, but I work in a school. There are some bad teachers, but there are some worse parents out there. Our district wastes its time with stupid lawsuits (and those parents/kids did go to my school :0 ), which is a huge stress for a teacher. Parents don't get the big picture, get mad and take it out on the teacher before finding out the facts (I'm sorry doesn't make up for you said and did during the screamfest). Kids come to school not dressed appropriately for the weather or activities (can't run in sandals, duh), homework not done, no breakfast, and bad attitudes.

As for evaluating teachers, find a great tool and you will be a hero. If it is too subjective, a principal can keep his friends and run off those he doesn't like (even if everyone else says they are a great teacher). If you rely only on test scores, how do factor in the teacher's for special ed whose kids may not be capable of learning or whose growth isn't measured on the tests (potty training, ability to chew and eat their lunch, following directions, able to sit in a regular classroom for short periods without disrupting the class).

I get paid for working 185 days/year. I will be back before the district says I have to be back, just so I can get things ready to start. There are teachers who go in on the weekends to prepare - there's only one copy machine in the building and the line gets long. My pay/day sounds good. Whne you figure it on the hourly rate, it drops dramatically. And don't even start asking about the moeny that I spend out of my pocket each year. I lie to my husband, so he doesn't mad about it. And these are not fluffy extras, they are basic things.

And guess what? Only teachers are prohibited from getting both their teacher retirement (which they pay into) and social security (which they paid into at their second job). If you paid into both and qualified for both, you should get both.

<sigh> My fingers are tired and I know that I've not changed anyone's mind. I just feel the need to try. Rant over.

Absolutely right on the head!!!!!!!!! Do we teach in the same school???? Spek coming your way!!!!

[Boomhauer]

Mrs. Norm,

I am a fellow Oklahoma teacher. I just finished up a graduate class at OU-Tulsa for Ed. Administration called Politics in Education. My instructor is VERY involved in the legislation for teachers. With that being said I can tell you this: ALL TEACHERS WILL BE GETTING THEIR 3,000 DOLLAR RAISE. What the main complaint on this issue is that they legislation didn't fund enough money for the operations cost for schools.

What they had talked about doing is giving a 1400 dollar raise to everyone and increasing the scale (teachers scale) up one step. That didn't fly. The only ones that would be happy about that are the teachers who have been teaching for 25 years. They would have come out with about a 4,100 dollar raise while the second year teacher would have got around 600 dollars.

Here is the catch on the 3,000 dollar pay raise. Every teacher will get it BUT school districts will have to pay the bill on all first year teachers in their districts. I guess what they do is that each individual school district provides the state each year with how many teachers they have. Any new (first year) teacher that comes in will have to be paid the raise by the school district. Again...this portion was not funded.

So...to make a long story short....we will get the raise with a few kinks in the wording. BUT....you will see your raise.

[StoopTroup]

I didn't win the lotto tonight.

[RacerX]

Seems like the initial wording of the raise was vague. Some teachers would get $0, some $4000+.

I thought the wording was changed so that each teacher was to get $3000. The only issue I heard was that the raise is mandatory, but only partially funded.

I'll see if I can find specifics.

Heh, I should've read Boomhaur's post.

[GDC]

All Oklahoma teachers are getting a $3000 raise.

[slickdawg]

As some of you might know, Gov. Henry signed a bill to give ALL teachers a
"3,000 across the board raise". Sounds great, doesn't it? However, as a teacher, I'm very confused. I have been told 2 things:

1. The district that the teachers work for decide what to do with that money. Basically, the state gives each district the money for raises in their budget. Then, that district "decides" how to spend the money. I guess OKC gave raises by seniority the last time this happened. Therefore, not ALL teachers will get $3,000.

2. Some districts already pay their teachers above the state average. If that is the case, the district can use that money however they want. Unions usually get involved to get teachers some of the money.

Is this what Gov. Henry meant by "$3,000 across the board raise"???? All I know is that it is going to tick me off if I end up getting nothing because my district already pays me enough.

If you know anything different about this, please let me know.

Mrs. Norm, all I can say is that you should get even more $$$ for hazardous
duty pay, with all these little ganstas that are already "signing" in class.

[Vaevictis]

As for evaluating teachers, why not have teachers evaluate student's progress, and have other teachers evaluate their ability to evaluate?

For example, at the end of each school year, there are objectives for a student's progress, right? Why not have a teacher write up a document for each student detailing their progress towards each objective? Then, the next teacher to receive the student should evaluate where the student is say, 6 weeks into the school year, and write a similar evaluation of where the student is. Each teacher should file supporting documentation (tests, classwork, tec) for each student.

The two are compared, and if they don't match up (within a reasonable margin of error), a third party blindly evaluates the student (from documentation), and whoever was wrong gets penalized. A parent should also be able to "request" a third party evaluation from time to time. (Hopefully, these checks are good enough to keep people honest)

A teacher's objectives for the year should, in part, be based on where the student lay at the beginning of the year, and in part should be based on standardized objectives. A teacher who receives a student who is behind and catches him up should be rewarded, a teacher who advances (or keeps!) a student beyond the objectives gets rewarded, and a teacher who fails to make appropriate progress (based on where the student stood at the end of the year) gets penalized.

Schools could be evaluated using the same documents by comparing the evaluations from when they enter the school to the evaluations when they leave.

It puts a lot of extra work and stress on the teachers, but maybe not so much as standardized testing, and I think it's probably fairer.

Does that sound reasonable?

[usmc-sooner]

bring back the paddle

leave the politics out of the classroom and teachers are worth their weight in gold.

to my sad surprise my kid had some extreme liberal for a teacher who went out of her way to mess with her. She told her things like George W. Bush made me a murderer and that Marines like to beat their wives and kids. I hope this lady has to find her meals in garbage cans.

I hope she never gets another job.

[Vaevictis]

Normally, I'd be all for someone being a pain in your arse ( ;) ), but messing with your kid ain't cool.

I'm assuming from your comment you got her fired? If so, good for you. (seriously). Totally unprofessional, and besides that, it's high *********gery to boot.

[usmc-sooner]

Normally, I'd be all for someone being a pain in your arse ( ;) ), but messing with your kid ain't cool.

I'm assuming from your comment you got her fired? If so, good for you. (seriously). Totally unprofessional, and besides that, it's high *********gery to boot.

I didn't get her fired her actions got her fired. A lot of other parents complained as well. I was a million miles away during this BS. Thank God I married a girl who doesn't back down from this kind of stuff.

[SicEmBaylor]

Mrs. Norm, we are also getting an across the board raise down here. It is designated for salaries, so it must go to salaries. The districts may determine exactly who gets what.

Sic'em, pass a security check and I would love to have you come observe a classroom all day.

That security check is going to totally rule me out (j/k ;). I've passed a couple of Secret Service checks when I've done some volunteer work in Crawford, so I should be fine. :D


If it is so easy, feel free to do crowd control AND teach them something. Be sure to follow state and district guidelines on what you can and can't say, also take into account the needs and feelings of each of the darlings in your class.

And if you mess up, you will hear about it from the district higher ups, your principal, your team and the parents. And you have to be creative. Before and after school, and often during your lunchtime, you get to tutor the kids who don't get it. And don't forget playground duty, bus lines, etc. Make sure that the kids get whatever items the parents forgot to send with them that morning. Watch how much and what each child is eating - Susie is allergic to peanuts, you know. And Sam isn't himself today - don't forget to mention it to the parents ASAP. During planning time, return the phonecalls from parents with questions, attend meetings, and have parent conferences. Don't forget to monitor the behavior of each of the kids, even when they are away from the classroom (bathroom, library, playground when it isn't your day for outside duty). Make sure that each child writes down their assignments and takes home the correct books. And you'd better make sure that each child leaves the school with the correct person, going the correct place.

So school is out, time to go home? You wish. More meetings - team planning (the general schedule for the week is made in advance, but you have to tweak it daily due to outside forces, so you meet daily anyway), district (to keep up with the latest and greatest), tutoring (not for extra money, just for the at risk kids), grading papers, noting who owes you work, check on students who were absent, clean the room, get supplies/papers ready for the next day. You may have forms to fill out for the doctors of special needs kids or individual educational plan meeting to attend.
Did you remember to smile all day? Did you ask about Mary's sick pet and Lizzie's game last night?
We have a couple of parents who live across the street from the school. They have asked our teachers to call them before they leave the building - the dads will come over and walk them to their cars and help carry stuff out. They are so nice and wonderful role models for their kids.

I am not a teacher, but I work in a school. There are some bad teachers, but there are some worse parents out there. Our district wastes its time with stupid lawsuits (and those parents/kids did go to my school :0 ), which is a huge stress for a teacher. Parents don't get the big picture, get mad and take it out on the teacher before finding out the facts (I'm sorry doesn't make up for you said and did during the screamfest). Kids come to school not dressed appropriately for the weather or activities (can't run in sandals, duh), homework not done, no breakfast, and bad attitudes.

As for evaluating teachers, find a great tool and you will be a hero. If it is too subjective, a principal can keep his friends and run off those he doesn't like (even if everyone else says they are a great teacher). If you rely only on test scores, how do factor in the teacher's for special ed whose kids may not be capable of learning or whose growth isn't measured on the tests (potty training, ability to chew and eat their lunch, following directions, able to sit in a regular classroom for short periods without disrupting the class).

I get paid for working 185 days/year. I will be back before the district says I have to be back, just so I can get things ready to start. There are teachers who go in on the weekends to prepare - there's only one copy machine in the building and the line gets long. My pay/day sounds good. Whne you figure it on the hourly rate, it drops dramatically. And don't even start asking about the moeny that I spend out of my pocket each year. I lie to my husband, so he doesn't mad about it. And these are not fluffy extras, they are basic things.

And guess what? Only teachers are prohibited from getting both their teacher retirement (which they pay into) and social security (which they paid into at their second job). If you paid into both and qualified for both, you should get both.

<sigh> My fingers are tired and I know that I've not changed anyone's mind. I just feel the need to try. Rant over.

Well, I'll definitely give you a lot of points on your arguments. We can meet halfway, and I'll tip my hat to teachers who go above and beyond what is required of them. THESE (such as yourself and Mrs. Norm) who do deserve every dime that you make. I've never disputed the value of a good teacher, and would have absolutely no problem paying excellent educators (and just becuase you're not a teacher you are DEFINITELY an educator to the kids).

I do remember back, not fondly, to all of those swim classes I taught during the year and summer school. Dealing with kids in a pool ranging from ages 6-14 is NOT fun by any stretch of the imagination. It only takes a couple of bad ones to refocus all of your attention away from the ones who want to learn and onto the trouble makers.

Spek to you and the better half of Norm.

[BajaOklahoma]

Mrs. Norm, I'm not even a teacher. I just work at the school and have learned from observation. I forgot to mention that the classroom atmosphere we all enjoyed as kids is long gone. Kids are more needy and parents have stressed the individual is important to the point that group projects skills are being lost.



bring back the paddle

leave the politics out of the classroom and teachers are worth their weight in gold.

to my sad surprise my kid had some extreme liberal for a teacher who went out of her way to mess with her. She told her things like George W. Bush made me a murderer and that Marines like to beat their wives and kids. I hope this lady has to find her meals in garbage cans.

I hope she never gets another job.


We have KN kids pitching fits in the classroom - and they don't remove the kid, they remove the rest of the class. WTH? Who came up with this? It should be inconvenient for the child who is misbehaving, not those having to listen or observe this poor display. And I can't begin to tell you the number of parents who will then undermine the limited discipline options open to the schools. Our first team offered an ice cream party for any of their kids who mastered all of their math facts. Students and parents were notified at the begining of the year and reminded throughout the year. One of the mom whose child didn't qualify decided to take all of the non-qualifers to Braums. Heck, I thought it was a great positive reinforcement/reward idea. The mom b!tched so much that they had to offer all of the kids ice cream. Geez.
i would love to see parent required to attend a parenting class every year that is specific to the age of their child and connected to how to help them be successful in class.

USMC - I think the teacher was wrong. I don't want to teach morals and values and I don't want the teachers to do it for me. I have to give the body changes talk to the 5th grade boys and girls - it is not a sex talk nor do I try to inject my moral beliefs on sex. Well, okay, I do mention how nice it was that both my husband and I had graduated from college before we had kids and how nice it was to be able to walk into a store and buy lots of stuff for my kids when I wanted to rather than having had the kids earlier when I couldn't have afforded so much (working the materialistic angle). <award winning longest sentence> :D

Bottomline. Work with the teachers for the good of your kids. Most teachers will go out of their way to help you if you are reasonable.
BTW, I was probably a horrible parent for the teachers to deal with when my kids were little. In second grade, I made my daughter be responsible for her work - no helicopter parenting. The teachers were supportive because they could see the longterm benefits even better than I could.

[TopDaugIn2000]

my mom finally decided those raises weren't ever going to come, so she decided to retire after 32 years of teaching. she turned in her notice the last day of classes.....heh

oh well, she says she made the right decision, I hope she is right.

[Vaevictis]

Really, it's not that a paddle is necessary.

What's necessary is a series of punishments that stick -- irrespective of parental bitching -- that lead up to permanent removal from the classrooms.

In other words, parents, get your act together discipline your kid -- we don't really care how -- or have fun paying to send them to a private school.

(I went to a private school until I was in 3rd grade, and removal from the school works much better than any kind of corporeal punishment. There are kids who just can't be reached by any amount of pain.)

[usmc-sooner]

Mrs. Norm, I'm not even a teacher. I just work at the school and have learned from observation. I forgot to mention that the classroom atmosphere we all enjoyed as kids is long gone. Kids are more needy and parents have stressed the individual is important to the point that group projects skills are being lost.





We have KN kids pitching fits in the classroom - and they don't remove the kid, they remove the rest of the class. WTH? Who came up with this? It should be inconvenient for the child who is misbehaving, not those having to listen or observe this poor display. And I can't begin to tell you the number of parents who will then undermine the limited discipline options open to the schools. Our first team offered an ice cream party for any of their kids who mastered all of their math facts. Students and parents were notified at the begining of the year and reminded throughout the year. One of the mom whose child didn't qualify decided to take all of the non-qualifers to Braums. Heck, I thought it was a great positive reinforcement/reward idea. The mom b!tched so much that they had to offer all of the kids ice cream. Geez.
i would love to see parent required to attend a parenting class every year that is specific to the age of their child and connected to how to help them be successful in class.

USMC - I think the teacher was wrong. I don't want to teach morals and values and I don't want the teachers to do it for me. I have to give the body changes talk to the 5th grade boys and girls - it is not a sex talk nor do I try to inject my moral beliefs on sex. Well, okay, I do mention how nice it was that both my husband and I had graduated from college before we had kids and how nice it was to be able to walk into a store and buy lots of stuff for my kids when I wanted to rather than having had the kids earlier when I couldn't have afforded so much (working the materialistic angle). <award winning longest sentence> :D

Bottomline. Work with the teachers for the good of your kids. Most teachers will go out of their way to help you if you are reasonable.
BTW, I was probably a horrible parent for the teachers to deal with when my kids were little. In second grade, I made my daughter be responsible for her work - no helicopter parenting. The teachers were supportive because they could see the longterm benefits even better than I could.

My mom worked in the school system for several years. I have the utmost respect for teachers.
I honestly don't see how they do it. I'd have to choke some of these little ****s out.

I still talk to my favorite HS teacher, and I still call her Mrs. or Maam.

[usmc-sooner]

Really, it's not that a paddle is necessary.

What's necessary is a series of punishments that stick -- irrespective of parental bitching -- that lead up to permanent removal from the classrooms.

In other words, parents, get your act together discipline your kid -- we don't really care how -- or have fun paying to send them to a private school.

(I went to a private school until I was in 3rd grade, and removal from the school works much better than any kind of corporeal punishment. There are kids who just can't be reached by any amount of pain.)

I agree

[Okla-homey]

As some of you might know, Gov. Henry signed a bill to give ALL teachers a
"3,000 across the board raise". Sounds great, doesn't it? However, as a teacher, I'm very confused. I have been told 2 things:

1. The district that the teachers work for decide what to do with that money. Basically, the state gives each district the money for raises in their budget. Then, that district "decides" how to spend the money. I guess OKC gave raises by seniority the last time this happened. Therefore, not ALL teachers will get $3,000.

2. Some districts already pay their teachers above the state average. If that is the case, the district can use that money however they want. Unions usually get involved to get teachers some of the money.

Is this what Gov. Henry meant by "$3,000 across the board raise"???? All I know is that it is going to tick me off if I end up getting nothing because my district already pays me enough.

If you know anything different about this, please let me know.

Meanwhile, the newly hired Tulsa school superintendent retires (not resigned) from the same position in Brownsville TX (noted for its fantastic public schools no doubt) and moves to Tulsa to begin his duties. His employment contract (per the newspaper) is worth over $230K per year in compensation including a nice non-taxable annuity, plus a car and a "golden handcuffs" clause worth a lump payment of almost 100K if he doesn't jump ship until retirement.

I'm not even sure what a school supt. does, but it seems to pay better than teaching.

[Vaevictis]

Meh. Superstar CEOs are now moving into public service? As if the concept wasn't already a blight on society without the superstar pay being drawn from governmental sources.

[OUHOMER]

I have to agree with SicEm, When i was a young man, I move in with my real dad and when to OKC schools.. I hate to say they did not care but they sucked. Went back to my original school and was kicked out for 1/2 a year and had to go to night school at U.S. Grant HS. I am telling you these teachers would not stand up to an actual performance based review.

As far as not working year round, they need time off after dealing with kids like me..

Mrs.Norm, its teachers like you that keep me going. After beeing kicked out of school for 1/2 year @ 17 it would have been so easy just to quit. I had teachers that would call me at home, catch me on the street and just hound me to death about coming back and finishing. I did go back and graduated with my class.

[Mrs. Norm]

Mrs.Norm, its teachers like you that keep me going. After beeing kicked out of school for 1/2 year @ 17 it would have been so easy just to quit. I had teachers that would call me at home, catch me on the street and just hound me to death about coming back and finishing. I did go back and graduated with my class.

I became very, very close with my 6th grade students this year. This summer they have called me at home (almost all 25 of them). They are going on to middle school and they are frightened. They see their older siblings in middle school....and most of the teachers don't give a crap about these kids. My students have asked me if they can come by and see my after school for help on homework. It's sad that they already know they are basically "on their own".

As far as evaluating of teachers, I am all for it!! Our evaluation process is a joke at my school! For instance, my principal likes me. She walks by and actually sees my students engaged in group activities; she sees my scores rising; however, she never (not once) came and sat down and evaluated me. She only does it with the teachers she believes aren't doing their job. The sad part is that it is hard to be "fired". We have teachers that make kids go backward in skills (how is this possible???) They lose prior knowledge after being in their class. This should make a person be fired, IMO.

[JohnnyMack]

I was a million miles away during this BS.

You're Neil Armstrong?

Cool.

[ChickSoonerFan]

Finally, to be frank, teachers are paid a bit more than they otherwise should be. I'm going to get negged up the *** for this comment but as hard as teachers work it's nothing compared to a labor intensive year-round job. I don't know of too many other jobs that get 2-3 months of vacation every year. If teachers TRULY wanted to paid more then they would demand that education be privatized, although, that would mean performance based pay and less vacation every year.

I completely and totally disagree with this statement. There are many professions out there that are less "labor intensive" that are more lucrative. Pay should be based on the value of the job, not necessarily the intensity of the labor.

And on the other side, I can't think of many more intense duties than spending all day in a classroom with 20-30 children from all different backgrounds and personalities. Try it.

Teachers are underpaid in my opinion. Educating and caring for our children should be one of the most important priorities in our society. Even if you do not have children, you should want them to be educated and taken care of. They are "our future" (I know, very cliche but true).

I have a great deal of respect and am very thankful for teachers. Of course there are bad ones, but that happens in every profession. Parents must stay involved and listen to their children to be able to determine which teachers are not good.

Mrs. Norm, I hope you see every penny of the $3k raise, and that it doesn't take years for another increase.

[soonerjoker]

we had some great teachers, in okmulgee. of course, i graduated from
HS over 50 years ago.

teachers could discipline us, & our parents would take the teachers side.
not so many "spoiled brats" in those days.

and, you wanta talk about "underpaid" ???

[Big Red Ron]

Mrs. Norm,

If you'll lobby the teachers union to help get rid of the 540 something school districts in Oklahoma, there will be quite a bit of money for your raise and to give back to the tax payers.

Best regards,

Big Red Ron

P.S. - Merit Pay, let the bad teachers go to Texas and other states.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Is it true that Oklahoma has more Superintendants and administrators than the State of Texas?

[Big Red Ron]

Is it true that Oklahoma has more Superintendants and administrators than the State of Texas?Pretty sure but if its even close it freakin retarded. Consolidation of school districts must happen. We don't need 540 + school administrations...we just don't.

Why the teacher's union is opposed to merit pay is beyond me. Oklahoma's public school system is horrible. Sandy Garret eve said that like 40% of all college freshman need remedial courses.:O

THEN HOW THE **** DID THEY GRADUATE HIGH SCHOOL????:mad:

[soonerjoker]

have a hard time believing that part, where ok is compared to tx.

too many people,counties & school districts for that to be true.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

That is why it is crazy...if we are even close to Texas, we need to fire about half....

[NYSooner1355]

Pretty sure but if its even close it freakin retarded. Consolidation of school districts must happen. We don't need 540 + school administrations...we just don't.

Why the teacher's union is opposed to merit pay is beyond me. Oklahoma's public school system is horrible. Sandy Garret eve said that like 40% of all college freshman need remedial courses.:O

THEN HOW THE **** DID THEY GRADUATE HIGH SCHOOL????:mad:

Because the state needs to move them on or risk losing federal funding and incentives based on the NCLB formulas

[NYSooner1355]

oh, and for SicEm, if you think teachers get paid more than they deserve - not many other careers REQUIRE someone(eventually NCLB is requiring ALL teachers) to hold a Master's degree and yet receive pay at ~30K/year...the amount of education required necessitates some form of competive salary

[BajaOklahoma]

Tejas has Independent School Districts (ISDs). They have limited the amount of the ISD's budget that can be spent on adm., which encourages them to consolidate into bigger districts.
For instance, our district has 67 schools for our city of 250,000. This includes three pre-K, two alternative schools for the county to use (elementary and secondary kids are on separate campuses), three senior highs (11th and 12th grades only), five highs (9th and 10th only, another one is already in the planning stages), twelve middle schools (6th, 7th and 8th) and forty-two elementary schools (new ones in the planning stages).
Our schools are grouped into three clusters consisting of the senior high and all of the schools that feed into it.

Each of the ISDs belong to a State designated region. We are in Region 10 (of 20). The different Regions are responsible for updating their schools on the latest and greatest information and can respond to the needs of their population. Each Region has a physical location and staff. The staff at the service center is grouped into the different specialty areas that you would see on the school campus - special ed, arts, phys ed, health (nurses) and so on.
Bottomline, we may have less districts, but we still lots of staff on the state level.

[etouffee]

not many other careers REQUIRE someone(eventually NCLB is requiring ALL teachers) to hold a Master's degree and yet receive pay at ~30K/year...the amount of education required necessitates some form of competive salarymeh. in many states, entry level lawyers in the public sector make about that much. salaries shouldn't be based on degrees. if it were, college professors would need to be amongst the highest paid people in society, and police officers would make even less than they make now, since no degree is required for that.

[Cam]

In other words, parents, get your act together discipline your kid
There's not much more that needs to be said about the subject than this.

[etouffee]

There's not much more that needs to be said about the subject than this.Actually, I think there is. In addition to disciplining their kids, parents should, at a minimum:

show some actual interest in their kids and know what's going on in their lives
take an active role in their kids' education, starting with making sure all assignments are completed on time. if parents don't treat education like it's important, kids will follow that example.

[Cam]

Actually, I think there is. In addition to disciplining their kids, parents should, at a minimum:

show some actual interest in their kids and know what's going on in their lives
take an active role in their kids' education, starting with making sure all assignments are completed on time. if parents don't treat education like it's important, kids will follow that example.
I stand corrected. Very good points.

[Okla-homey]

I'm afraid the sad fact of it is that people won't vote for decent teacher raises unless/until government schools improve. For a lot of folks, it smacks of throwing good money after bad. Not fair, but there it is.

[Scott D]

I'm afraid the sad fact of it is that people won't vote for decent teacher raises unless/until government schools improve. For a lot of folks, it smacks of throwing good money after bad. Not fair, but there it is.

the crux of your point is that most people won't lift a finger to try and improve matters with the school system other than to complain that teachers are useless, and the schools even worse while they all try to convince you they are the world's greatest parents and civic citizens.

[PhilTLL]

meh. in many states, entry level lawyers in the public sector make about that much.

Entry level lawyers and 20-year teachers.

[etouffee]

I'm afraid the sad fact of it is that people won't vote for decent teacher raises unless/until government schools improve. For a lot of folks, it smacks of throwing good money after bad. Not fair, but there it is.To expand on that, in some areas, it's simple demographics and politics.

It's still (sadly) the case in a lot of places that the educated, middle-to-upper income folks vote in much larger numbers than lower income, lesser educated folks. If the public schools are really bad in a given community, the people who can afford it, who are also the people who vote the most, have their kids in private schools. Thus, when it comes time to vote on tax increases to increase funding for public schools, these people see no real reason to support schools that their kids don't attend, and it gets defeated almost every time. (yes, this is shortsighted, because bad public schools churning out ill-prepared grads ultimately impacts the entire community, but people don't think that far ahead)

[etouffee]

Entry level lawyers and 20-year teachers.not everywhere, my friend. note that I said entry level lawyers in the public sector, not private practice. in many areas, an entry level govt lawyer makes mid-20s to low 30s. that's about where teachers start in a lot of places. 20-year teachers are generally doing better than that.

[Mrs. Norm]

Pretty sure but if its even close it freakin retarded. Consolidation of school districts must happen. We don't need 540 + school administrations...we just don't.

Why the teacher's union is opposed to merit pay is beyond me. Oklahoma's public school system is horrible. Sandy Garret eve said that like 40% of all college freshman need remedial courses.:O

THEN HOW THE **** DID THEY GRADUATE HIGH SCHOOL????:mad:

Listen to this "logic". Two years ago, my school was on the at-risk list. That means that our students were not passing the annual test for too many years. Therefore, we had 1 year to raise scores at least 10%. If we didn't, we were going to be shut down. My principal came in brand new; myself and 6 other new teachers came in. We had grants coming out of our a***s; money in the budget for Professional Development; money for an after-school tutoring program. We worked hard and our scores did come up.

Last year, we were not on the list. WOOHOO!!! So, what happened? Our grants were taken, we didn't get money for after-school tutoring, and we had less Professional Development money. WTF????????? Our kids worked sooo hard and the teachers too (those that stayed after-school). Since we got off of the list, we didn't need the "extras", according to the board.

Our principal made the statement of: "Well, I guess we have to get back on the list to get more programs for the students and the teachers". And you wonder why our kids aren't on the level they should be???

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

yeah like my Mom who has taught for 33 years and is in the low 40's and she has every certification known to man...so she is probably the Max teacher.

[Ike]

Listen to this "logic". Two years ago, my school was on the at-risk list. That means that our students were not passing the annual test for too many years. Therefore, we had 1 year to raise scores at least 10%. If we didn't, we were going to be shut down. My principal came in brand new; myself and 6 other new teachers came in. We had grants coming out of our a***s; money in the budget for Professional Development; money for an after-school tutoring program. We worked hard and our scores did come up.

Last year, we were not on the list. WOOHOO!!! So, what happened? Our grants were taken, we didn't get money for after-school tutoring, and we had less Professional Development money. WTF????????? Our kids worked sooo hard and the teachers too (those that stayed after-school). Since we got off of the list, we didn't need the "extras", according to the board.

Our principal made the statement of: "Well, I guess we have to get back on the list to get more programs for the students and the teachers". And you wonder why our kids aren't on the level they should be???


this kind of thing is so not surprising.

at all.

[SicEmBaylor]

I completely and totally disagree with this statement. There are many professions out there that are less "labor intensive" that are more lucrative. Pay should be based on the value of the job, not necessarily the intensity of the labor.

And on the other side, I can't think of many more intense duties than spending all day in a classroom with 20-30 children from all different backgrounds and personalities. Try it.

Teachers are underpaid in my opinion. Educating and caring for our children should be one of the most important priorities in our society. Even if you do not have children, you should want them to be educated and taken care of. They are "our future" (I know, very cliche but true).

I have a great deal of respect and am very thankful for teachers. Of course there are bad ones, but that happens in every profession. Parents must stay involved and listen to their children to be able to determine which teachers are not good.

Mrs. Norm, I hope you see every penny of the $3k raise, and that it doesn't take years for another increase.

It has nothing to do with a lack of respect. I have a high degree of respect for nearly every teacher that I've ever had. And I'm not exactly bitter because I just didn't get along with teachers. I had maybe one that I didn't get along with, but I've never even seen the inside of a detention room. I never even had a teacher have to raise his/her voice at me.

Like I said though, I wouldn't mind paying teachers more if it were more performance and merit based. I also believe that teachers, while there would be fewer of them, would make a hell of a lot more if education were privatized.

[SicEmBaylor]

Listen to this "logic". Two years ago, my school was on the at-risk list. That means that our students were not passing the annual test for too many years. Therefore, we had 1 year to raise scores at least 10%. If we didn't, we were going to be shut down. My principal came in brand new; myself and 6 other new teachers came in. We had grants coming out of our a***s; money in the budget for Professional Development; money for an after-school tutoring program. We worked hard and our scores did come up.

Last year, we were not on the list. WOOHOO!!! So, what happened? Our grants were taken, we didn't get money for after-school tutoring, and we had less Professional Development money. WTF????????? Our kids worked sooo hard and the teachers too (those that stayed after-school). Since we got off of the list, we didn't need the "extras", according to the board.

Our principal made the statement of: "Well, I guess we have to get back on the list to get more programs for the students and the teachers". And you wonder why our kids aren't on the level they should be???

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head! The reason this policy exists is becuase of the myth that more $$$=a better education. This has been nationwide public education policy for a very long time. D.C. spends more per pupil than any other school system in the nation and it has some of the worst test scores.

You're absolutely right that we should be rewarding schools for success not punishing them by stripping away funds and dumping them into a failing school district. This is yet another great reason to privatize education.

I wish I could spek you twice. Mrs. Norm, I think you definitely "get it."

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

They should nationalize teaching, put the kids in like a prison for 8 hours and have one teacher..."Macho Man" Randy Savage....OHHHHH YEAHHHHH!!!!!!

[Cam]

not everywhere, my friend. note that I said entry level lawyers in the public sector, not private practice. in many areas, an entry level govt lawyer makes mid-20s to low 30s. that's about where teachers start in a lot of places. 20-year teachers are generally doing better than that.
My Dad's nearing retirement age and has been teaching for over 40 years. I've made more than him every year but one since graduating from college. The only degree/cert he doesn't have is his Phd in education.

[etouffee]

Without knowing what he makes, it's hard to know what we're supposed to take away from that in the context of the current discussion, especially since numbers have been previously introduced.

[royalfan5]

It has nothing to do with a lack of respect. I have a high degree of respect for nearly every teacher that I've ever had. And I'm not exactly bitter because I just didn't get along with teachers. I had maybe one that I didn't get along with, but I've never even seen the inside of a detention room. I never even had a teacher have to raise his/her voice at me.

Like I said though, I wouldn't mind paying teachers more if it were more performance and merit based. I also believe that teachers, while there would be fewer of them, would make a hell of a lot more if education were privatized.
If you privative education, how would you provide access for low income families? Is your proposal of privatization one where the gov't is subcontracting it's educational duties? Or are you going to just have all schools be private, if so, how do you propose to deal with the increasing amount of undereducated people that would arise under such a situation?

[SicEmBaylor]

If you privative education, how would you provide access for low income families? Is your proposal of privatization one where the gov't is subcontracting it's educational duties? Or are you going to just have all schools be private, if so, how do you propose to deal with the increasing amount of undereducated people that would arise under such a situation?

Good question. Partial privatizationis probably a more apt-term. I wrote a policy paper on this a couple of years ago after spending some research in and around central Texas schools. I don't think I have the paper anymore, but if I find it then I'll send it to you.

The jest of the system is this:

Schools would be autonomous. They would be free to pay their teachers what they want, hire who they want, fire who they want, and teach their students what they want in whatever manner they want.

Parents would be totally free to send their kid to whatever school they choose.

Every parent would be required (by state law) to set up a private education savings account with the state. All of the tax revenue that a person or family pays which is normally paid to the state and distributed to the schools would instead go into their private tax free savings account. In addition, they could put whatever additional money into the account they wish that would also carry over and could be used for college. I was toying with an option whereby the state eliminated certain grants, etc. and instead used the money to match some of the education fund investments made by the individual. Something of that nature, but I never fully developed the idea. If, even after that funding, a family wanted to send their kid to a school that was more than they could afford then the state would have a scholarship assistance program that is income dependent.

Tuition would be regulated by the state.

Students would be required to pass a state exam before being allowed to graduate. The exam would have to be designed and fluid enough in such a way that schools wouldn't "teach the exam" instead of teaching the material the exam is suppose to test the student on. How schools achieve the result of graduating their students is up to them.

There's a lot more to it than that but that's the very short jest.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

the gov't..... it's educational duties?Of which educational duties do you speak?

[SoonerInKCMO]

Is it true that Oklahoma has more Superintendants and administrators than the State of Texas?

I was poking around the Internet and found this:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/red/2006/01/PodgurskySpringer.pdf

In 2002, Oklahoma had 543 school districts (9th most in the country) and Texas had 1,040 (most in the country).

Another interesting factoid in that document is that, measured relative to average housing prices, Oklahoma spends the 2nd most per pupil in the country.

[usmc-sooner]

We had this hot substitute teacher back in HS. She gave me a raise.

[StoopTroup]

We had this hot substitute teacher back in HS. She gave me a raise.
We must have gone to the same school or she was a sub at more than one. :D

[royalfan5]

Of which educational duties do you speak?
The duties it has been undertaking for a long, long time. If you scrapped that, you would face a very difficult transition in systems, that could result in America's competiveness in the world being damaged.

[usmc-sooner]

We must have gone to the same school or she was a sub at more than one. :D

I got it bad so bad I'm hot for teacher:D

[NYSooner1355]

The duties it has been undertaking for a long, long time. If you scrapped that, you would face a very difficult transition in systems, that could result in America's competiveness in the world being damaged.

you know, I really need to point out a flaw in the argument about our "competitiveness in the world"...most other countries (i.e., India, Japan, etc..) in which we are "competing against" have education systems based on the British-style...what does that mean?

That means, typically only the best and brightest move on from the primary schools to the equivalent of our High Schools and those are only allowed to attend universities...the others continue their education but to a much lesser degree...so when you compare those countries to ours remember they have almost a complete Class-based system of education, whereas we, for the most part allow all students the opportunity to advance

[royalfan5]

you know, I really need to point out a flaw in the argument about our "competitiveness in the world"...most other countries (i.e., India, Japan, etc..) in which we are "competing against" have education systems based on the British-style...what does that mean?

That means, typically only the best and brightest move on from the primary schools to the equivalent of our High Schools and those are only allowed to attend universities...the others continue their education but to a much lesser degree...so when you compare those countries to ours remember they have almost a complete Class-based system of education, whereas we, for the most part allow all students the opportunity to advance
I agree with your assertion, but my point was withdrawing Gov't support wouldn't help the matter what so ever.

[NYSooner1355]

meh. in many states, entry level lawyers in the public sector make about that much. salaries shouldn't be based on degrees. if it were, college professors would need to be amongst the highest paid people in society, and police officers would make even less than they make now, since no degree is required for that.

I don't want to mischaracterize your point, but are you really saying that advanced degrees should have no bearing on what a person makes? I agree with you that there are professions where a degree is not required and yet the people in that profession make good incomes...but really, in general a degree...

and btw, here on Long Island, PO's make over $75K after maybe 2 years on the job and the average cop makes over $100K - and they are public servants

[NYSooner1355]

I agree with your assertion, but my point was withdrawing Gov't support wouldn't help the matter what so ever.

I understand where your point was coming from and should have noted that...

but gov't reform of education always uses the argument of us not being able to remain competitive with other nations

[Okla-homey]

Here's where its all headed, I've seen it while living in most of the deep South states and its headed our way. Someday, within the next 20 years or so, the only kids who will be left in the public schools in Oklahoma will be the one's whose parents don't give a damn enough about their education or future to pull them out. The rest will be in private school settings and even lower income people who care about their kid's future will find a way to scrape together the money to pay the tuition.

Not saying I'm happy about it, its tragic actually, but remember, you heard it here in 2006.

[etouffee]

and btw, here on Long Island, PO's make over $75K after maybe 2 years on the job and the average cop makes over $100K - and they are public servantsyes, but that's an extreme outlier. in the vast majority of the US, it doesn't even begin to approach those numbers.

[Cam]

Without knowing what he makes, it's hard to know what we're supposed to take away from that in the context of the current discussion, especially since numbers have been previously introduced.
At the time, '94 I think, after 20+ years of teaching, it was much less than 30K. He wised up and got out of the OKC school system shortly there after.

[Norm In Norman]

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head! The reason this policy exists is becuase of the myth that more $$$=a better education. This has been nationwide public education policy for a very long time. D.C. spends more per pupil than any other school system in the nation and it has some of the worst test scores.

You're absolutely right that we should be rewarding schools for success not punishing them by stripping away funds and dumping them into a failing school district. This is yet another great reason to privatize education.

I wish I could spek you twice. Mrs. Norm, I think you definitely "get it."
Dude, she just told you that the school got more money for more programs and the scores went up, so I'd say it wasn't a myth that more money = a better education. Paying for teachers to learn new teaching techniques and paying for teachers to stay extra hours every day (that they don't have time for) to teach the kids both costs more money and helps the kids learn more.

Just scanning through this thread, it seems like you truly believe whatever it is you are trying to say, it just doesn't seem like you know why you believe it.


I think increased teacher salaries are good. First of all, it puts more money in my account via Mrs. Norm. Second of all, think of it this way: why would someone go to college, rack up a $25k student loan to get a degree and then want to get paid 27k per year? That isn't much incentive. But you raise that starting pay to say 35k with increases each year and you are going to start having more people get that degree. With more people wanting the jobs, you are going to have competition for them so the schools can be selective about who they hire. If you can be selective with who you hire you are going to hire the better teachers; ergo you've just raised the level of competency of the kids going to school. On the flip side, right now, Mrs. Norm's school is just happy to have warm bodies.

Another problem is her school doesn't have enough money to operate. If you are a good teacher and you have a chance to teach in OKC where the teacher has to buy most of his/her own supplies, the restrooms are nasty, the roofs leak etc. OR you have a chance to teach in Edmond or Norman, where the buildings are nice and they try to keep things up to date and the kids and teachers have all the supplies they need, where are you going to teach? The answer is not OKC if you have a choice. Her school NEEDS more money to be successful. Period. Teachers should worry about teaching and not buying supplies or the state of their facilities.

Everyone here in OK knows that the districts need to be combined but nobody seems to be able to do anything about it. There are 425 independant school districts in OK. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_districts_in_Oklahoma) There are only 77 counties. Let's say you cut the number of school districts by 200, which would still leave an average of 3 districts per county (wtf?). Let's say that each of these cuts would save $200k (which I imagine is a really low estimate - that would be 4 $50k jobs which doesn't include buildings and other operating costs that could go away). YOU JUST SAVED THE SCHOOL SYSTEM 40 MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR! I doubt anyone would want to be the one to cut all of these jobs though, which I guess is why it has never happened. It needs to happen though. How about cutting 10 districts per year until we've cut 200? Then take half of the money that would be used for these districts and increase the teacher salaries and use the other half to update the buildings that need it or something?

[Ike]

Dude, she just told you that the school got more money for more programs and the scores went up, so I'd say it wasn't a myth that more money = a better education. Paying for teachers to learn new teaching techniques and paying for teachers to stay extra hours every day (that they don't have time for) to teach the kids both costs more money and helps the kids learn more.



addendum: More money used intelligently = a better education.

[picasso]

Somebody, somewhere got mad at me once because I called Oklahoma a backwards state. I still say I was right.
because of how we pay our teachers? you know they make more in Texas because the cost of living is higher.

I have a high respect for their job and what they do.

[JohnnyMack]

because of how we pay our teachers? you know they make more in Texas because the cost of living is higher.

I have a high respect for their job and what they do.

Look at what our legislature makes and look at what our teachers make.

Look at what Saxet's legislature makes and look at what their teachers' make.

[Tear Down This Wall]

If you privative education, how would you provide access for low income families? Is your proposal of privatization one where the gov't is subcontracting it's educational duties? Or are you going to just have all schools be private, if so, how do you propose to deal with the increasing amount of undereducated people that would arise under such a situation?

Vouchers.

This has all been proposed a million times. Give parents a voucher equivalent to the school district tax they pay and let them decide where to send their kids.

Problem - the unions hate it because they know it'd be the death knell for their crappy public schools. Basically, the idea is so good, it'll never be done because it'd erase all public school bureaucracy.

[picasso]

I was poking around the Internet and found this:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/red/2006/01/PodgurskySpringer.pdf

In 2002, Oklahoma had 543 school districts (9th most in the country) and Texas had 1,040 (most in the country).

Another interesting factoid in that document is that, measured relative to average housing prices, Oklahoma spends the 2nd most per pupil in the country.
so you're saying more money for education isn't always the answer? whoa.

[SoonerInKCMO]

so you're saying more money for education isn't always the answer? whoa.

Either that or housing in Oklahoma is really damn cheap. ;)

[Mrs. Norm]

UPDATE: I just received an email from my teacher's union. Every teacher gets $3,000. They are negotiating steps; once that is settled, the raise and any negotiated steps will be retroactively paid. WOOHOO!!!!!

Well, I better not get too excited. They could "negotiate steps" all year.

[RacerX]

http://members.cox.net/racerx4ou/albert.bmp

[NYSooner1355]

Mrs. Norm, check your messages

[Mrs. Norm]

http://members.cox.net/racerx4ou/albert.bmp

Yes...the good 'ole AYP. Every school's AYP has to increase by 10% every year. I'm glad we are doing adequately. :rolleyes: