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Okla-homey
6/25/2006, 06:54 AM
June 25, 1876 Indians defeat Custer at Little Big Horn

http://img36.echo.cx/img36/3934/georgecuster9gp.jpg
Lt Col George A. Custer in his Civil War brevet major general's duds

130 years ago today, determined to resist the efforts of the U.S. Army to force them onto reservations, Indians under the leadership of Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse wipe out Lieutenant Colonel George Custer and much of his 7th Cavalry at the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

Sioux Chiefs Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse had been successfully resisting American efforts to confine their people to reservations for more than a decade. Although both chiefs wanted nothing more than to be left alone to pursue their traditional ways, the growing tide of white settlers invading their lands inevitably led to violent confrontations.

Increasingly, the Sioux and Cheyenne who did try to cooperate with the U.S. government discovered they were rewarded only with broken promises and marginal reservation lands. In 1875, after the U.S. Army blatantly ignored treaty provisions and invaded the sacred Black Hills, many formerly cooperative Sioux and Cheyenne abandoned their reservations to join Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse in Montana. They would not return without a fight.

Late in 1875, the U.S. Army ordered all the "hostile" Indians in Montana to return to their reservations or risk being attacked. Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse ignored the order and sent messengers out to urge other Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe Indians to unite with them to meet the white threat.

By the late spring of 1876, more than 10,000 Indians had gathered in a massive camp along a river in southern Montana called the Little Big Horn. "We must stand together or they will kill us separately," Sitting Bull told them. "These soldiers have come shooting; they want war. All right, we'll give it to them."

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3435/csittinguntitled8tf.png (http://imageshack.us)
Sitting Bull

Meanwhile, three columns of U.S. soldiers were converging on the Little Big Horn. On June 17, the first column under the command of General George Crook was badly bloodied by Sioux and Cheyenne warriors led by Crazy Horse. Stunned by the size and ferocity of the Indian attack, Crook was forced to withdraw.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1787/crook3r9ct.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
George Crook

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5390/cgibbon5511kc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
John Gibbon, taken about ten years earlier during the Civil War.

Knowing nothing of Crook's defeat, the two remaining columns commanded by General Alfred Terry and General John Gibbon continued toward the Little Big Horn. On June 22, Terry ordered the 7th Cavalry under the command of Lieutenant Colonel George Custer to scout ahead for Indians.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4530/cterryalfred2ty.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Alfred Terry taken about ten years earlier during the Civil War.

http://img36.echo.cx/img36/7108/custercolumn9vm.jpg
Custer's column

On the morning of this day in 1876, Custer's scouts told him that a gigantic Indian village lay nearby in the valley of the Little Big Horn River. Custer dismissed the scouts' claim that the village was extraordinarily large-certainly many thousands of Indians-as exaggerated. Indeed, his main fear was that the Indians would scatter before he could attack. Rather than wait for reinforcements, Custer the glory hound decided to move forward immediately and stage an unusual mid-day attack.

As the 7th Cavalry entered the valley, Custer divided the regiment of about 600 men into four squadrons, keeping a force of 215 under his own command. The force ratio would be approximately 600 cavalry combatants versus at least 5000 well armed and ****ed-off Indian combatants.

In the vast Indian encampment (historians estimate there were as many as 11,000 Indians), word quickly spread of the approaching troopers. Too old to actually to engage in battle, Sitting Bull rallied his warriors while seeing to the protection of the women and children. The younger Crazy Horse prepared for battle and sped off with a large force of warriors to meet the invaders.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1448/crazyhorse1lq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Crazy Horse

As Custer's divided regiment advanced, the soldiers suddenly found they were under attack by a rapidly growing number of Indians. Gradually, it dawned on Custer that his scouts had not exaggerated the size of the Indian force after all. He immediately dispatched urgent orders in an attempt to regroup his regiment.

The other battalions, however, were facing equally massive attacks and were unable to come to his aid. Soon, Custer and his 215 men found themselves cut off and under attack by as many as 3,000 armed braves. Within an hour, they were wiped out to the last man. The remaining battalions of the 7th Cavalry were also badly beaten, but they managed to fight a holding action until the Indians withdrew the following day.

The Battle of the Little Big Horn was the Indians' greatest victory and the army's worst defeat in the long and bloody Plains Indian War. The Indians were not allowed to revel in the victory for long, however. The massacre of Custer and his 7th Cavalry outraged many Americans and only confirmed the image of the bloodthirsty Indians in their minds, and the government became more determined to destroy or tame the hostile Indians.

The army redoubled its efforts and drove home the war with a vengeful fury. Within five years, almost all of the Sioux and Cheyenne would be confined to reservations. Crazy Horse was killed in 1877 after leaving the reservation without permission. Sitting Bull was shot and killed three years later in 1890 by a Lakota policeman.

StoopTroup
6/25/2006, 08:27 AM
Dustin Hoffman should have been killed as soon as he decided it was a good idea to paint up.

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/03/29/lbm1.jpg

King Crimson
6/25/2006, 09:26 AM
good read, but:

"The Battle of the Little Big Horn was the Indians' greatest victory and the army's worst defeat in the long and bloody Plains Indian War. The Indians were not allowed to revel in the victory for long, however. The massacre of Custer and his 7th Cavalry outraged many Americans and only confirmed the image of the bloodthirsty Indians in their minds, and the government became more determined to destroy or tame the hostile Indians."

tame the hostile Indians? those people had no right to resist?

BajaOklahoma
6/25/2006, 10:36 AM
One of the History Channel or Discovery shows focused on recreating the progression of the battle. They based it on the location of ammo (using a metal detector), topography and known battle strategy of the era. Interesting.
There is also a good book on Custer by Wert.

SoonerStormchaser
6/25/2006, 10:43 AM
Let's see...300 vs. 10,000.

Kinda like a one-legged man at an ***-kicking contest.

Okla-homey
6/25/2006, 01:09 PM
good read, but:

"The Battle of the Little Big Horn was the Indians' greatest victory and the army's worst defeat in the long and bloody Plains Indian War. The Indians were not allowed to revel in the victory for long, however. The massacre of Custer and his 7th Cavalry outraged many Americans and only confirmed the image of the bloodthirsty Indians in their minds, and the government became more determined to destroy or tame the hostile Indians."

tame the hostile Indians? those people had no right to resist?

They had an absolute right to resist. I'm not saying they didn't. Just saying the complete massacre of that battalion of the 7th Cav gave new vigor to the arguments of folks who were determined to use "any means necessary" to end the "indian problem."

I have also gone on record as saying Custer was a baffoon. He was trying to earn his stars back and got a lot of good boys killed in the process.

soonerhubs
6/25/2006, 01:40 PM
Don't stop doing what your doing Okla-Homey. It's some of the best reads.

usmc-sooner
6/25/2006, 01:44 PM
I was rooting for the Indians

Big Red Ron
6/25/2006, 02:18 PM
Custer died for your sins.

Newbomb Turk
6/25/2006, 02:43 PM
I was rooting for the Indians

that would make you, like...old and stuff.

Big Red Ron
6/25/2006, 02:45 PM
http://img36.echo.cx/img36/3934/georgecuster9gp.jpg

Any Farkes that can add pwn3d!!!11! on here?

SoonerDood
6/25/2006, 03:01 PM
I was rooting for the Indians
it was sure nice of them to let us win one.

usmc-sooner
6/25/2006, 03:17 PM
Oh Custer also lost to the Cheyenne and he turn and ran leaving some of his fellow officers to die.

You can see this battlefield out in Western Oklahoma just outside the town of Cheyenne.

Okla-homey
6/25/2006, 03:22 PM
Its been widelly reported that when ordering the charge, Custer called to his bugler:

:les: Let-r-rip!

TUSooner
6/25/2006, 06:46 PM
Let's see...300 vs. 10,000.

Kinda like a one-legged man at an ***-kicking contest.

That's about the same odds that Custer gave the women and children at the "Battle" of the Wash!ta.
I agree with the bumper sticker I used to see a lot when I was living in OK: Custer had it coming.

Okla-homey
6/25/2006, 06:57 PM
That's about the same odds that Custer gave the women and children at the "Battle" of the Wash!ta.
I agree with the bumper sticker I used to see a lot when I was living in OK: Custer had it coming.

One of the biggest a--holes to ever wear a United States uniform IMHO.

SoonerStormchaser
6/25/2006, 07:43 PM
One of the biggest a--holes to ever wear a United States uniform IMHO.


No...he was the biggest...John Kerry comes in a close second!

GDC
6/25/2006, 08:30 PM
Custer was an Indian-lover compared to Andrew Jackson.

BOOMERBRADLEY
6/25/2006, 09:35 PM
How did crazy horse become so famous ?

Obviously he was a great warrior, but was he up high in the ranks or something?

picasso
6/25/2006, 11:45 PM
How did crazy horse become so famous ?

Obviously he was a great warrior, but was he up high in the ranks or something?
huh? dude. read some books. His Crazy Horse was one of the greatest Americans to ever live.
He wasn't even really accepted by his own people. his hair was brown and curly and he looked different. his medicine required that he never live above his people in dress and lifestyle. he also had a vision of his own people grasping at him when he died (which came true by the way). he was a great warrior and leader.
and, that pic Homey posted is the real thing. for a long time it was said that he never posed for a picture but the above photo/tin type was published a few years ago and is supposedly authenticated by tribal elders.
I even spoke with a well known Santa Fe artist about the picture and he said he had a psychic check it out and it's legit.:cool:

picasso
6/25/2006, 11:48 PM
Let's see...300 vs. 10,000.

Kinda like a one-legged man at an ***-kicking contest.
true, but with the firepower the Army had, a good battle plan would have still been effective.
btw, Sitting Bull was in camp on the Greasy Grass but he couldn't fight. he had given 50 pieces of flesh during a dance just days before the battle. during said dance he had a vision of soldiers falling from the sky, upside down.

picasso
6/25/2006, 11:51 PM
That's about the same odds that Custer gave the women and children at the "Battle" of the Wash!ta.
I agree with the bumper sticker I used to see a lot when I was living in OK: Custer had it coming.
that was Black Kettle's peaceful band too. the hostiles were running in eastern Colorado, ****ed about the Sand Creek massacre. Black Kettle had a white flag and an American flag flying above his lodge. he was told no harm would come to him if he flew them. of course he was killed.

picasso
6/25/2006, 11:53 PM
Custer was an Indian-lover compared to Andrew Jackson.
or Kit Carson or Colonel Chivington.

Big Red Ron
6/25/2006, 11:56 PM
Kit Carson was the worst, IMHO.

Some of you who are unenlightened, read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee."

picasso
6/26/2006, 12:08 AM
Kit Carson was the worst, IMHO.

Some of you who are unenlightened, read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee."
spek! a timeless classic by Dee Brown.

Sitting Bull and Carzy Horse were great chiefs/leaders AND warriors. I recall one episode when the Lakotas were fighting the cavalry and Sitting Bull walked into the battlefield and lit up his pipe sat down and smoked it. others reluctantly joined him as bullets buzzed overhead like bees.:)

also, check this cat out:

http://www.juntosociety.com/native/mandans.htm
he was so bad that he tracked down a Cheyenne chief/enemy, on foot, for many a mile. was welcomed into his lodge, lived with him for a while, then killed him in battle and walked back home.
he also refused treatment when his people were decimated by small pox. he walked out to a hill and lay there for a few days before dying.

picasso
6/26/2006, 12:13 AM
http://www.artofthelakota.com/images/prod/fightingcheyennes_2.jpg
this is a great great read about plains warfare. it's full of nothing but old battle stories written down by the author who lived with the Cheyenne.

Okla-homey
6/26/2006, 06:36 AM
I'm not an expert but have read several accounts that argue the troopers had poor ammo for their breech loading carbines and the Indians had some lever action rifles.
Incidentally, has anyone ever postulated how the Indians would have fared in plains warfare with enough ammo to practice and learn the art of massed firepower?

The troopers had trap-door Springfields which had a nasty tendency to foul after repeated firings. The spent metallic hull of the cartridge then became difficult to extract from the breech making it tough to load a fresh cartridge without use of a knife edge or tool to help pull the old one out. These arms were single-shot breechloaders. rate of fire was potentially 20 rounds per minute but fouling brought that down to about 5.

Many of the Indians had Spencer and Henry repeating rifles. Lever-action Henry's fired .44-40 rimfire cartridges carrying up to 12 rounds in the magazine. Spencer's were 7 shot repeaters. Neither of these guns had the problem plaguing the Springfields. These guns could consistently manage 40-60 rounds per minute. Therefore, I'd say the troopers were not only outmanned, they were outgunned too.

picasso
6/26/2006, 08:32 AM
I'm not an expert but have read several accounts that argue the troopers had poor ammo for their breech loading carbines and the Indians had some lever action rifles.
Incidentally, has anyone ever postulated how the Indians would have fared in plains warfare with enough ammo to practice and learn the art of massed firepower?
yes the Indians had rifles but the number no way equals that of the Army. again, a better laid out plan AND help from Benteen would have been effective.

Custer found out he wasn't fighting old men, women and children this time around.

usmc-sooner
6/26/2006, 08:36 AM
I've been to Little Big Horn, right outside of Crow Agency. Custer made a lot of mistakes from the markers, he led his mean down a coulee (sp) and they were easy targets for the Indians.

If you ever have a chance to go, you should it only costs $10.00 to get into the monument and it's really an interesting place.

picasso
6/26/2006, 08:39 AM
ah yes! medicine tail coulee.

jeremy885
6/26/2006, 09:04 AM
Kit Carson was the worst, IMHO.

Some of you who are unenlightened, read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee."


One of the few books I kept from OU that wasn't major related.