If I were an Episcopal, this would tear it once and for all for me... [Archive]

Okla-homey

6/19/2006, 03:29 PM

just saying.

New US church leader says homosexuality no sin
Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:30pm ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Newly elected leader of the U.S. Episcopal Church Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori said on Monday she believed homosexuality was no sin and homosexuals were created by God to love people of the same gender.

Jefferts Schori, bishop of the Diocese of Nevada, was elected on Sunday as the first woman leader of the 2.3 million-member Episcopal Church. the U.S. branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion. She will formally take office later this year.

Interviewed on CNN, Jefferts Schori was asked if it was a sin to be homosexual.

"I don't believe so. I believe that God creates us with different gifts. Each one of us comes into this world with a different collection of things that challenge us and things that give us joy and allow us to bless the world around us," she said.

"Some people come into this world with affections ordered toward other people of the same gender and some people come into this world with affections directed at people of the other gender."

Jefferts Schori's election seemed certain to exacerbate splits within a Episcopal Church that is already deeply divided over homosexuality with several dioceses and parishes threatening to break away.

It could also widen divisions with other Anglican communities, including the Church of England, which do not allow women bishops.

Scott D

6/19/2006, 03:30 PM

Nevada and Massachusettes.....and some of you wonder why I turn my back on 'organized religion'.

6/19/2006, 04:43 PM

We're Episcopalians. Well, we are as long as our bishop (Don Wimberly of the Houston diocese) is at the helm. He is conservative, to put it lightly.

But yes, this is troubling to me. And no, I don't care who does what to whom, provided they both consent. Just don't do it in my home and don't force your choices to those who don't care to participate.

Too bad, because I really like being "Catholic Lite."

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 04:55 PM

But yes, this is troubling to me. And no, I don't care who does what to whom, provided they both consent. Just don't do it in my home and don't force your choices to those who don't care to participate.

How is anybody forcing their choices on you?

Jimminy Crimson

6/19/2006, 05:06 PM

In related news, the US Episcopal Church has a new official song: If It Makes You Happy - Sheryl Crow

cah-ray-z

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 05:09 PM

Sooner_Bob

6/19/2006, 05:25 PM

I don't have a dog in the Episcopalian fight. But it seems to me the Episcopal church is just the first of many denominations that will end up having a very difficult internal diaologue about how to handle the issue of homosexuality. And trust me, I understand that it won't be easy. I went through the same thing myself...over more than a decade.

I grew up in a great, stable, middle-class home with a conservative mom and dad, and went to a conservative southern baptist church 3 times most weeks from birth until I left for college. After a decade of pain I reached the conclusion that I don't believe in a god that would saddle me with such a "sin" that is so intrinsic to my very being and send me off to hell for it. If I'm wrong and end up there, then eternal separation from such a god is fine with me (call it mutual rejection, if you will). It's been over 5 years since I made peace with myself and I've never been happier.

So that's my story in one paragraph...and now the Episcopalian church is confronting the reality many of us have already had to deal with for years. It doesn't really matter to me how it ends up for the church. Even if they decide in the end to take a hardline stand against homosexuality, I respect them for having an honest discussion about it...as opposed to other denominations who have chosen a coordinated effort of demonization against gays from the pulpit and in politics.

Homosexuality isn't the only sin that gets "singled out" from the pulpit. Most churches don't spend Sunday after Sunday bashing gays.

Our country has turned from a stance of rejecting sin to accepting it because of the political correctness movement (among many others).

You say that you feel that God saddled you with the intrinsic sin of homosexuality . . . do you also feel that God saddles suicide bombers with their burden of choosing to blow up themselves and kill innocent people? Keeping in mind that God doesn't give preference to one sin over another.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 05:29 PM

Our country has turned from a stance of rejecting sin to accepting it because of the political correctness movement (among many others).

Like divorce, birth control, drinking, shopping on Sundays, mixed marriages? These were all considered sins at some point, or are still considered sins by certain denominations.

How do you know that the Episcopal leader is wrong? She read the same Bible as you do and came up with a different answer. What makes you think you are more in touch with God's will than she is?

slickdawg

6/19/2006, 05:55 PM

It's just Catholic-lite.

Okla-homey

6/19/2006, 05:59 PM

Like divorce, birth control, drinking, shopping on Sundays, mixed marriages? These were all considered sins at some point, or are still considered sins by certain denominations.

How do you know that the Episcopal leader is wrong? She read the same Bible as you do and came up with a different answer. What makes you think you are more in touch with God's will than she is?

B/c when asked about specific scripture condemning sodomy, she basically said, "yep, that's what it says, but that's not what they meant" and likens it to Mosaic dietary laws. To me, revisionism is a slippery slope. When a person chooses to accept only the scriptural rules for living of which they approve, and dismiss the stuff they don't, it kinda turns the whole thing into a "lets all hold hands and exchange ignorances" session and makes a mockery of it all. Sure, I sometimes mow the lawn on the Sabbath, but strictly speaking, I know I shouldn't. I would not respect a member of the clergy who preached that it was fine to do so in an attempt to be "inclusive" and make me feel good about myself when I do.

I acknowledge people have a right to engage in this lifestyle. I don't want them harassed or hurt in any way. I just find it personally offensive that a prelate in an major denomination would presume to pronounce the active gay lifestyle consistent with Christian faith based on her own personal interpretation of the Bible which is counter to centuries of Christian theology and the sincere deeply held beliefs of billions of people of good will. Its a bumper sticker, but I still think we should love the sinner but hate the sin.

Jimminy Crimson

6/19/2006, 06:06 PM

It's just Catholic-heathen.

;)

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 06:35 PM

but I still think we should love the sinner but hate the sin.

I'm sure there some gay people out there who are all about loving a sinner, maybe 3 or 4 times. :D

Sooner_Bob

6/19/2006, 06:40 PM

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 06:41 PM

I don't have a dog in the Episcopalian fight. But it seems to me the Episcopal church is just the first of many denominations that will end up having a very difficult internal diaologue about how to handle the issue of homosexuality. And trust me, I understand that it won't be easy. I went through the same thing myself...over more than a decade.

I grew up in a great, stable, middle-class home with a conservative mom and dad, and went to a conservative southern baptist church 3 times most weeks from birth until I left for college. After a decade of pain I reached the conclusion that I don't believe in a god that would saddle me with such a "sin" that is so intrinsic to my very being and send me off to hell for it. If I'm wrong and end up there, then eternal separation from such a god is fine with me (call it mutual rejection, if you will). It's been over 5 years since I made peace with myself and I've never been happier.

So that's my story in one paragraph...and now the Episcopalian church is confronting the reality many of us have already had to deal with for years. It doesn't really matter to me how it ends up for the church. Even if they decide in the end to take a hardline stand against homosexuality, I respect them for having an honest discussion about it...as opposed to other denominations who have chosen a coordinated effort of demonization against gays from the pulpit and in politics.

I've never tried to demonize gay people, I think it's wrong, disturbing, disgusting but I have never gone out of my way to harm one, put one down or any other thing. The pastor of my church feels it is wrong but says you know the whole forgiveness thing. I don't think he has ever called for the head of gay person. There were actually a lesbian couple who came to our church, he didn't harp on them.

I even knew a gay guy serving in the Navy. I never once tried to get him in trouble or turn him in. He didn't bother me I didn't bother him.

I think maybe that if someone doesn't agree with your lifestyle they aren't automatically some kind of hate monger.

soonerscuba

6/19/2006, 06:47 PM

I even knew a gay guy serving in the Navy.

Shocking, the Navy, you say? ;)

GDC

6/19/2006, 06:58 PM

The sooner everyone realizes the whole religion thing is a bunch of bull**** the better off we will be.

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 07:00 PM

Homosexuality isn't the only sin that gets "singled out" from the pulpit. Most churches don't spend Sunday after Sunday bashing gays.

Our country has turned from a stance of rejecting sin to accepting it because of the political correctness movement (among many others).

You say that you feel that God saddled you with the intrinsic sin of homosexuality . . . do you also feel that God saddles suicide bombers with their burden of choosing to blow up themselves and kill innocent people? Keeping in mind that God doesn't give preference to one sin over another.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to someone comparing me to a suicide bomber, so consider this a generic response (anyone who compares me to a terrorist can take their "love the sinner" and shove it up their ***). I think it's arrogant to say people who have struggled and accepted gays - either in themselves or their friends or families or neighbors - do so for "political correctness". Perhaps they simply realize all they've been fed about gays being dangerous diseased satanists is BS.

Maybe not "singled out", but evangelicals these days spend a severely disproportionate amount of time and energy talking about it - in church and in politics. Just look at the speeches and public statements by James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, et al. Ten mentions of evil homosexuals for any one mention of any other sin. I wouldn't care if they kept it behind the pulpit, but before you say "they don't speak for me as a Christian!" consider how much pull they have in government. And their constant demonization in the political arena DOES have an impact on my daily life.

I've never tried to demonize gay people, I think it's wrong, disturbing, disgusting but I have never gone out of my way to harm one, put one down or any other thing.

I don't think this makes any sense. Wouldn't you say that if I called all marines as a group "wrong, disturbing, disgusting", I was demonizing the individuals, or at least putting them down?

Sooner_Bob

6/19/2006, 07:15 PM

I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to someone comparing me to a suicide bomber, so consider this a generic response (anyone who compares me to a terrorist can take their "love the sinner" and shove it up their ***).

I knew you would latch on to that . . . and knew you'd feel there was a comparison. Which there wasn't but whatever.

I don't know why I even bothered to respond to this thread. Anyone who doesn't blindly accept "everything" is automatically labeled a bigot or a racist.

I think it's arrogant to say people who have struggled and accepted gays - either in themselves or their friends or families or neighbors - do so for "political correctness". Perhaps they simply realize all they've been fed about gays being dangerous diseased satanists is BS.
I hardly consider myself arrogant, but I do consider all the propoganda from both sides of the gay arguement BS.

Maybe not "singled out", but evangelicals these days spend a severely disproportionate amount of time and energy talking about it - in church and in politics. Just look at the speeches and public statements by James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, et al. Ten mentions of evil homosexuals for any one mention of any other sin. I wouldn't care if they kept it behind the pulpit, but before you say "they don't speak for me as a Christian!" consider how much pull they have in government. And their constant demonization in the political arena DOES have an impact on my daily life.

If both sides would just quit pushing one lifestyle on the other we'd all be happier.

GDC

6/19/2006, 07:18 PM

I'm getting married in an Episcopal church in November, is that bad? I don't know **** about them. Most of my ex-wives were Catholics, they scare me.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 07:21 PM

as opposed to other denominations who have chosen a coordinated effort of demonization against gays from the pulpit and in politics.

You mean other demonimations that haven't given in to the public pressure?

:twinkies:

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 07:22 PM

I don't think this makes any sense. Wouldn't you say that if I called all marines as a group "wrong, disturbing, disgusting", I was demonizing the individuals, or at least putting them down?

no, a lot of people don't like the Marines. I realize I'm in profession where our job is lot of time to kill people and a lot of people don't like it.

I think it's wrong like I said, I think it's a sin but I've never gone out of my way to make their life miserable. There are straight people who I think are wrong, disturbing and disgusting.

I think people tend to be more disturbed though when people are sexually abnormal as opposed to other abnormalities.

I think it is worse to believe something to be wrong and just accept it anyways.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 07:22 PM

I'm getting married in an Episcopal church in November, is that bad? I don't know **** about them. Most of my ex-wives were Catholics, they scare me.

You marrying a dude? ;)

Scott D

6/19/2006, 07:27 PM

I'm getting married in an Episcopal church in November, is that bad? I don't know **** about them. Most of my ex-wives were Catholics, they scare me.

it's like being Catholic..but lighter on sin, and no confessional.

And based upon the last 10 years, in some ways because of the New Hampshire 'bishop', the Episcopal Church was pretty much being forced into this decision.

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 07:34 PM

it's like being Catholic..but they don't allow you to sleep with young boys.

fixed it for you

joking just joking :D

GDC

6/19/2006, 07:36 PM

You marrying a dude? ;)

To the best of my knowledge, and I've researched this intensely, no.

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 07:38 PM

You mean other demonimations that haven't given in to the public pressure?

If religious leaders are feeling the pressure from the public to end demonization and bigotry, I say good for the public!

no, a lot of people don't like the Marines. I realize I'm in profession where our job is lot of time to kill people and a lot of people don't like it. ... I think it is worse to believe something to be wrong and just accept it anyways.

Good, I would expect you to be free to have the courage to stand up and speak out if someone has wronged you by demonizing the marines (or your family, or some other group you belong to or hold dear). As I have done and will continue to do for myself.

Scott D

6/19/2006, 07:38 PM

fixed it for you

joking just joking :D

eh, I might be offended...if I was an active practitioner of that church. :)

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 07:40 PM

Denominations don't decide what's a sin and what's not. God does.

Then why are there so many differences between the denominations?

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 07:45 PM

You mean other demonimations that haven't given in to the public pressure?

:twinkies:

Stanley, Stanley, Stanley...what makes your sins any more acceptable than being gay (or acting on that gayness or whatever)?

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 07:46 PM

If religious leaders are feeling the pressure from the public to end demonization and bigotry, I say good for the public!

Good, I would expect you to be free to have the courage to stand up and speak out if someone has wronged you by demonizing the marines (or your family, or some other group you belong to or hold dear). As I have done and will continue to do for myself.

I'm not trying to stop you. I will not however vote for pro gay issues like marriage. If someone starts to give me their opinion on how it is OK, I will give my opinion on how it is not OK. But I'd be the first to stand up for you if I thought you were going to be a victim of a hate crime or something stupid like that.

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 07:48 PM

Then why are there so many differences between the denominations?

Differences in what each denomination feels are more important.

But Bob is right denominations won't decide God will.

GDC

6/19/2006, 07:49 PM

Kill em all and let God sort em out.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 07:49 PM

Stanley, Stanley, Stanley...what makes your sins any more acceptable than being gay (or acting on that gayness or whatever)?

- Acceptable to God? Mine aren't any more, they are all looked at the same by God, and forgiven the same should you "save" yourself.

- Acceptable by humans? In the long run it doesn't matter, but being gay is generally looked at as being one of the worst things a person can be, save a murderer or child abuser.

PhilTLL

6/19/2006, 07:50 PM

I don't know why I even bothered to respond to this thread. Anyone who doesn't blindly accept "everything" is automatically labeled a bigot or a racist.

I hardly consider myself arrogant, but I do consider all the propoganda from both sides of the gay arguement BS.

If both sides would just quit pushing one lifestyle on the other we'd all be happier.

Indulging in narrow-minded phobic condemnation is hardly "taking a noble stand" or "not accepting popular opinion".

Where's the real propaganda? I consider painting one side as sinful, unclean, and disgusting in their behavior far more propagandic than that opposite side just asking to be treated like normal people and left alone.

Where's the "pushing"? Has a single gay person ever said "Well, it's unfortunate that you condemn my lifestyle, but if you'd just try it..." The extreme side of the anti-gay movement actually says it can be "cured". Sound like pushing an agenda?

In this very thread there's a story about condemnation in the name of God causing a decade's worth of personal torment over something that the person couldn't and can't change. It's hurtful, it's ruining lives, and it needs to stop. It can be cloaked in the Bible as much as you want, and I'd tell you simply that either the book or the reader are, frankly, ethically, wrong. Talk about "hating the sin, not the sinner," but here's a news flash. Hate a "sin" that the "sinner" cannot change to your satisfaction except to deny their true selves and you do hate the sinner. You drive them to hate themselves; you drive a frightening number of them to suicide. You can't really love them unless they pretend to have vanquished a beast you've saddled them with--so, in my eyes, you can't really love them.

If someone finds that the evil demon of modern culture is undermining their preciously-held closed-minded values, well, I can't shy from comparing those values to those of theocratic, fundamentalist, militant Islamists, who started a war to "protect" a society whose constituents have been trying to outgrow it. In some places it's women in burqa and literal death for heretics, in some places it's hysterics about the "sanctity" of a social convention that its own (hetero) adherents are doing plenty well at destroying themselves (>50% divorce rates), but living in the past is living in the past.

And before it gets suggested, insinuated, or what have, I'm not even gay--I just like to think of myself as rational.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 07:51 PM

If religious leaders are feeling the pressure from the public to end demonization and bigotry, I say good for the public!

So what, you want churches to stop calling anything, maybe save murder, rape, and child abuse a sin? That make you happy?

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 07:53 PM

Indulging in narrow-minded phobic condemnation is hardly "taking a noble stand" or "not accepting popular opinion".

Where's the real propaganda? I consider painting one side as sinful, unclean, and disgusting in their behavior far more propagandic than that opposite side just asking to be treated like normal people and left alone.

Where's the "pushing"? Has a single gay person ever said "Well, it's unfortunate that you condemn my lifestyle, but if you'd just try it..." The extreme side of the anti-gay movement actually says it can be "cured". Sound like pushing an agenda?

In this very thread there's a story about condemnation in the name of God causing a decade's worth of personal torment over something that the person couldn't and can't change. It's hurtful, it's ruining lives, and it needs to stop. It can be cloaked in the Bible as much as you want, and I'd tell you simply that either the book or the reader are, frankly, ethically, wrong. Talk about "hating the sin, not the sinner," but here's a news flash. Hate a "sin" that the "sinner" cannot change to your satisfaction except to deny their true selves and you do hate the sinner. You drive them to hate themselves; you drive a frightening number of them to suicide. You can't really love them unless they pretend to have vanquished a beast you've saddled them with--so, in my eyes, you can't really love them.

If someone finds that the evil demon of modern culture is undermining their preciously-held closed-minded values, well, I can't shy from comparing those values to those of theocratic, fundamentalist, militant Islamists, who started a war to "protect" a society whose constituents have been trying to outgrow it. In some places it's women in burqa and literal death for heretics, in some places it's hysterics about the "sanctity" of a social convention that its own (hetero) adherents are doing plenty well at destroying themselves (>50% divorce rates), but living in the past is living in the past.

And before it gets suggested, insinuated, or what have, I'm not even gay--I just like to think of myself as rational.

wow can you put that to music?

makes me want to get naked and shove hot dogs up my arse, and now I know that there's nothing wrong with that. :D

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 07:54 PM

I think people tend to be more disturbed though when people are sexually abnormal as opposed to other abnormalities.

Excellent point. I don't think we'll ever be able to get past the "icky" factor. We just have to realize that that's our problem, not theirs. I think shellfish is disgusting, but that doesn't entitle me to prevent others from eating it in my presence because there's no real harm to me if they do.

I think it is worse to believe something to be wrong and just accept it anyways.

We as a society have to define what exactly acceptance is. Does ignoring something constitute acceptance, or is that just MYODB?

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 07:54 PM

Hate a "sin" that the "sinner" cannot change to your satisfaction except to deny their true selves and you do hate the sinner. .

Where exactly does alcoholism fall into your theory then? I hate alcoholism, but not all alcoholics can be "cured".

GDC

6/19/2006, 07:55 PM

How someone chooses to get off is nobody's business but their own, as long as it doesn't involve under-aged kids.

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 07:56 PM

How someone chooses to get off is nobody's business but their own, as long as it doesn't involve under-aged kids.

what if in involves dead bodies or animals?

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 07:57 PM

How someone chooses to get off is nobody's business but their own, as long as it doesn't involve under-aged kids.

True, but that doesn't mean it isn't a sin, doesn't mean I have to approve of it, and definitely doesn't mean I have to have it shoved in my face. Agreed?

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 07:58 PM

So what, you want churches to stop calling anything, maybe save murder, rape, and child abuse a sin? That make you happy?

No, that's not what I'm looking for. I don't care if your church calls it a sin. I DO care if they get up in the public arena (e.g., the US Senate), and using their religious dogma call us "a threat to morality", "a threat to the family", "a threat to children", and other demonizing words.

GDC

6/19/2006, 07:58 PM

True, but that doesn't mean it isn't a sin, doesn't mean I have to approve of it, and definitely doesn't mean I have to have it shoved in my face. Agreed?

I agree totally, and that's what I've never understood about the homos is why they feel the need to have parades and otherwise raise a stink about their choices.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 08:00 PM

No, that's not what I'm looking for. I don't care if your church calls it a sin. I DO care if they get up in the public arena (e.g., the US Senate), and using their religious dogma call us "a threat to morality", "a threat to the family", "a threat to children", and other demonizing words.

What if the majority of America feels like being a homo is all of those things? Why shouldn't we stand up for what we believe?

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 08:01 PM

To the best of my knowledge, and I've researched this intensely, no.

I'm glad to hear this. Congrats.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:02 PM

- Acceptable to God? Mine aren't any more, they are all looked at the same by God, and forgiven the same should you "save" yourself.

What if you knowingly and repeatedly (not to mention enthisastically) commit the same sin? Doesn't that put a real damper on your moral authority?

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 08:03 PM

What if the majority of America feels like being a homo is all of those things? Why shouldn't we stand up for what we believe?

exactly it was put to a vote in 17 states and all voted no for gay marriages. This is what I was talking about when I said it's wrong to believe something is wrong but choose to look the other way.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 08:05 PM

What if you knowingly and repeatedly (not to mention enthisastically) commit the same sin? Doesn't that put a real damper on your moral authority?

I don't think so, it happens all the time. I curse on a daily basis. I have pre-marital sex on a relatively consistent basis. Just b/c I can't always "do" what I know is the correct thing to do, doesn't mean I don't know what the right thing is and that I can't "preach" (for lack of a better term) the morals I believe in, but don't always follow.

Being a Christian, believing in God/religion, and having morals isn't about living a perfect life. Its about admitting that you make mistakes.

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 08:07 PM

What if the majority of America feels like being a homo is all of those things? Why shouldn't we stand up for what we believe?

Oh, you're certainly free to stand up. But when you rely on pseudoscience, stereotyping, and lies, be prepared to be challenged and beaten down with the truth. And prepare to be made fun of when you abandon the debate when you lose it and retreat to the tired old strawmen called "PC" and "liberal hollywood media".

I agree totally, and that's what I've never understood about the homos is why they feel the need to have parades and otherwise raise a stink about their choices.

Again, why do you care if we have parades? If it bothers you, don't attend. It has very little to do with the discussion at hand, about how religious people and groups deal with homosexuality.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:08 PM

I don't think so, it happens all the time. I curse on a daily basis. I have pre-marital sex on a relatively consistent basis. Just b/c I can't always "do" what I know is the correct thing to do, doesn't mean I don't know what the right thing is and that I can't "preach" (for lack of a better term) the morals I believe in.

Why are you against homosexuality but not adultery? They're both equally sinful, right? Almost nobody has a problem crusading against something they have no desire to do anyway, and that's hypocritical.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 08:10 PM

Oh, you're certainly free to stand up. But when you rely on pseudoscience, stereotyping, and lies, be prepared to be challenged and beaten down with the truth. And prepare to be made fun of when you abandon the debate when you lose it and retreat to the tired old strawmen called "PC" and "liberal hollywood media".

I've yet to see this "beat down" happen, but whatever.

Again, why do you care if we have parades? If it bothers you, don't attend. It has very little to do with the discussion at hand, about how religious people and groups deal with homosexuality.

Why do we care? Because if we try to have a "I don't like to put my penis in another man" parade, we'd be attacked and protested against by gays. So you all have the right to defend your position and protest, but straight people don't? That makes no sense.

GDC

6/19/2006, 08:11 PM

Again, why do you care if we have parades? If it bothers you, don't attend. It has very little to do with the discussion at hand, about how religious people and groups deal with homosexuality.

You conveniently overlooked what I said earlier, and that was to each his own, but like Stanley said I get sick of issues regarding homosexuality being thrown in my face by the media.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 08:14 PM

Why are you against homosexuality but not adultery? They're both equally sinful, right? Almost nobody has a problem crusading against something they have no desire to do anyway, and that's hypocritical.

Adultery is defined as carnal connection between a married person and one unmarried, or between a married person and the spouse of another. It is seen to differ from fornication in that it supposes the marriage of one or both of the agents.

For the record, I'm not an adulterer. Now, if you are talking about fornication, yes, I participate in that.

Who says I'm not against adultery or fornication? I am. I'm also not perfect, and I make mistakes. Sometimes over and over. Doesn't mean I support what I do. That is why I need God's forgiveness to get to Heaven. If I were perfect, and never sinned, I wouldn't.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:19 PM

Who says I'm not against adultery or fornication? I am. I'm also not perfect, and I make mistakes. Sometimes over and over. Doesn't mean I support what I do. That is why I need God's forgiveness to get to Heaven. If I were perfect, and never sinned, I wouldn't.

But why the difference in the way you treat your sins and the way you treat homosexuality? I assume you think gay marriage should be illegal. Why not adultery/fornication?

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 08:21 PM

But why the difference in the way you treat your sins and the way you treat homosexuality? I assume you think gay marriage should be illegal. Why not adultery/fornication?

Actually, wouldn't the correct comparison be the act of homosexuality vs adultry/fornication. And for the record, I don't think the "act of being gay" should be illegal.

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 08:22 PM

Why do we care? Because if we try to have a "I don't like to put my penis in another man" parade, we'd be attacked and protested against by gays. So you all have the right to defend your position and protest, but straight people don't? That makes no sense.

I never said you didn't. In fact there are plenty of equivalents in the straight world, such as marriage ceremonies, bachelor(ette) parties, proms, all the way down to pictures of spouses on the desk at work. When gays do it it's "shoving it in my face", but it's perfectly acceptable for those same straight people to do it.

And it's always about sex with you, isn't it? In most cities pride is the largest gathering of gays, lesbians AND their families, friends, and supporters. So there's a lot of straight people there. In fact, last year, I reunited with about a dozen PFLAG folks - all straight - who I had lost touch with over the years. And met a really cool local lesbian couple and their two kids. Many activities during gay pride week benefit charities such as for AIDS research. Not to bust your stereotypes, or anything.

You conveniently overlooked what I said earlier, and that was to each his own, but like Stanley said I get sick of issues regarding homosexuality being thrown in my face by the media.

Thrown in your face? My friends and I shouldn't have to go out of our way to pretend we don't exist so that you don't feel icky or offended. I would point out that homosexuality is brought up FAR more often in the public arena by politicians, preachers, and soonerfans posters who say they are offended at discussions of homosexuality. Which seems a bit oddly obsessed, to me.

PhilTLL

6/19/2006, 08:22 PM

Where exactly does alcoholism fall into your theory then? I hate alcoholism, but not all alcoholics can be "cured".

I don't think I could adequately or satisfactorially express my thoughts on ethics, morals, etc, certainly not in a message board setting, sufficient to change your opinion or even explain mine. We obviously come from very different worldviews.

That aside, here's one way of looking at the difference. I think of alcoholism as a disease, not purely a "sin," but if you want to compare the two, a good litmus test is "Would the 'sinner' know that something was wrong with their lives if you didn't tell them so?" You would be very hard-pressed to find an alcoholic who is peachy keen with their out of control drinking (and not in a state of denial), but a homosexual living a good and happy life has no reason to trouble themselves over someone else's views on "sin" and "hell".

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:25 PM

Actually, wouldn't the correct comparison be the act of homosexuality vs adultry/fornication. And for the record, I don't think the "act of being gay" should be illegal.

True enough. So you're saying you oppose gay marriage on something in addition to moral grounds?

Hmmm..."act of being gay"--is that supposed to be a distinction from acting on being gay, i.e. PITTB?

GDC

6/19/2006, 08:26 PM

I never said you didn't. In fact there are plenty of equivalents in the straight world, such as marriage ceremonies, bachelor(ette) parties, proms, all the way down to pictures of spouses on the desk at work. When gays do it it's "shoving it in my face", but it's perfectly acceptable for those same straight people to do it.

And it's always about sex with you, isn't it? In most cities pride is the largest gathering of gays, lesbians AND their families, friends, and supporters. So there's a lot of straight people there. In fact, last year, I reunited with about a dozen PFLAG folks - all straight - who I had lost touch with over the years. And met a really cool local lesbian couple and their two kids. Many activities during gay pride week benefit charities such as for AIDS research. Not to bust your stereotypes, or anything.

Thrown in your face? My friends and I shouldn't have to go out of our way to pretend we don't exist so that you don't feel icky or offended. I would point out that homosexuality is brought up FAR more often in the public arena by politicians, preachers, and soonerfans posters who say they are offended at discussions of homosexuality. Which seems a bit oddly obsessed, to me.

You're a Texas fan, aren't you?

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 08:30 PM

You're a Texas fan, aren't you?

Nope, two degrees from OU, and still living in and working in Norman. Oh, and 9 years worth of OU season football tickets. But thanks for asking!

soonerscuba

6/19/2006, 08:35 PM

This board is obsessed with man love. Just sayin'.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:41 PM

This board is obsessed with man love. Just sayin'.

It took you over 2500 posts to figure that out?

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 09:07 PM

ok we all know how we feel about it morally

but you guys are ignoring the fact that it isn't good for you to have a sex organ shoved into your anus which is for waste disposal. And if your not the catcher it cant be the most sanitary thing to put your pecker in some guys ****ter. I think it's disgusting, and sick. But I also think it's the sexual equivalent of being retarded.

Jerk

6/19/2006, 09:24 PM

Some people say "they read the same Bible as you, but came up with different conclusions" and, it is true that this can actually be said on many topics; for example, "eternal security" or whether or not a soul is immortal or if we are resserrected. Yet, concerning gays, there is no ambiguity, there is little room for argument. It is as black and white as possible. It might as well have been written in caps that homosexuality is an abomination to God. Keep in mind we're talking about how a church is interpreting the Bible for its own doctrine. To ignore the plain teachings of the Bible in this area tells me that this church is more interested in not hurting anyone's feelings, rather than the truth of scriptures. But I'm a non-church going blackslider, so take it for what it's worth.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 09:29 PM

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 09:31 PM

Male/female PIITB too?

Nah, the female butt is cleaner, thus okay to violate. :D ;)

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 09:33 PM

but you guys are ignoring the fact that it isn't good for you to have a sex organ shoved into your anus which is for waste disposal. And if your not the catcher it cant be the most sanitary thing to put your pecker in some guys ****ter. I think it's disgusting, and sick. But I also think it's the sexual equivalent of being retarded.

You may be shocked, shocked I tell ye, to learn that heterosexuals also engage in that kind of sex, and that some homosexuals DON'T. That's the tough thing about stereotyping. And I'm sure you'd call a straight buddy of yours who has done that with his girl a sick, disgusting retard, right? Thankfully there's also a thing called condoms so the risk is pretty minimal. Again, if it's icky to you, don't do it and don't worry about what others are doing, unless you just like torturing yourself.

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 09:37 PM

it can't be good for a male or female.

I would imagine if you asked most girls they aint takin it up the pooper.

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 09:40 PM

Possibly, but we guys have an excuse. The prostate gland is the most stimulating g-spot for men.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 09:41 PM

Yet, concerning gays, there is no ambiguity, there is little room for argument. It is as black and white as possible.

At one time, everyone but Copernicus thought the Bible unambiguously said Earth was the center of the unverse. Every generation of humanity thinks it has all the answers, but in 50-100 years everybody looks back and says, "What were they thinking?" Regardless of whether or not you think the Bible is infallible, it is being interpreted by fallible humans.

nmsoonergirl

6/19/2006, 09:42 PM

Md's sig makes me laugh harder now that this thread has taken a disturbing turn.....

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 09:43 PM

You may be shocked, shocked I tell ye, to learn that heterosexuals also engage in that kind of sex, and that some homosexuals DON'T. That's the tough thing about stereotyping. And I'm sure you'd call a straight buddy of yours who has done that with his girl a sick, disgusting retard, right? Thankfully there's also a thing called condoms so the risk is pretty minimal. Again, if it's icky to you, don't do it and don't worry about what others are doing, unless you just like torturing yourself.

like I said I don't worry about, but I sure as hell won't vote for it. I never even worry about it until some homo tries to tell my religion and beliefs are wrong, just because he likes things shoved up his butt, or he likes bending his buddy over. No my religion aint wrong it's they have a warped perverted way of getting off sexually.
Don't tell my religion and beliefs are wrong and I won't tell your lifestyle is wrong.

royalfan5

6/19/2006, 09:54 PM

Man, I was really hoping this thread was going to be about the fact that they elected a woman as bishop. My denomonination doesn't allow women to vote in church meeting let alone, serve as a minister.

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 09:56 PM

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 10:01 PM

usmc, if it makes you feel better to judge my whole "lifestyle" based on the .0001% of my life in sexual relations, or to resort to name-calling when I stand up for myself against bigotry, there's not much more that I can say.

I haven't called you one name. I haven't made any judgements about you. Not my job or place. I believe that lifestyle is wrong. I firmly believe you should not be discriminated against. I've never negged you, bet you can't say the same for me.

Look I'm sorry if you've taken it that way. I just don't see where I did that. But accept my apologies if you feel that way.

Like I said if you don't tell me my religion and beliefs are wrong I won't tell you that yours are.

olevetonahill

6/19/2006, 10:06 PM

This thread has gone to **** !:eek:
Ghey I say

GhostOfJAS

6/19/2006, 10:08 PM

Okie dokie, usmc. Got work in the morning, so this sick retard's over and out.

Boarder

6/19/2006, 10:10 PM

Like I said if you don't tell me my religion and beliefs are wrong I won't tell you that yours aren't.

Actually, go ahead. Tell us we're wrong. And, when you get told you are wrong, don't take it as hate. Just take it as someone disagreeing with your belief. If someone punches you in the face for it, that's a whole other thing.

For instance, the way I understand from responses, I would say that PG doesn't have the same religious beliefs as me. But, I don't think she hates me. And I don't hate her. Doesn't mean we agree.

It CAN happen that way.

And, for the comment a while back, there are denominations that will never, and I mean never accept gayness as not sinful. Doesn't matter what the world thinks.

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 10:12 PM

Okie dokie, usmc. Got work in the morning, so this sick retard's over and out.

maybe that's why you feel so persacuted. You take things out of context and if you did I offered you an apology. Hey I don't even neg you back when you negg me. I really don't know what else to say.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 10:23 PM

maybe that's why you feel so persacuted. You take things out of context....

With people like Fred Phelps in the world, I can see why the homotarians are spring-loaded to assume the worst.

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 10:25 PM

With people like Fred Phelps in the world, I can see why the homotarians are spring-loaded to assume the worst.

I'd say most Americans including me can't stand Fred Phelps, he's very much in the minority.

ChickSoonerFan

6/19/2006, 10:45 PM

The problem I have with the original post is that they say it is not a sin. It appears that even the supporters on this thread of homosexuality concede that it is a sin..just as fornication is.

I can believe that some people are born with a pre-disposition to be gay, just as some are born to be alcoholics. But that does not mean it is not a sin. People should resist the temptation to sin, doesn't mean they will always win the battle but to say there is no need to fight that temptation, to me that is wrong. They are saying, go ahead, give in to the desire to commit acts of homosexuality because it isn't a sin?!?!? I mean really.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 10:48 PM

Sooner_Bob

6/19/2006, 10:49 PM

Then why are there so many differences between the denominations?

Umm, because there are so many people who don't like being told how to live or worship. Because some places want to lighten the message so to speak while others sharpen it and then there's the places that do their best to follow the Word.

ChickSoonerFan

6/19/2006, 10:55 PM

Good post, I agree.

If you are trying to kiss up after the herpes post..it ain't workin

;)

Sooner_Bob

6/19/2006, 11:01 PM

Indulging in narrow-minded phobic condemnation is hardly "taking a noble stand" or "not accepting popular opinion".

As I said, if you're not accepting of all things worldy you must be one of them there narrow-minded christian folk. :rolleyes:

Where's the real propaganda? I consider painting one side as sinful, unclean, and disgusting in their behavior far more propagandic than that opposite side just asking to be treated like normal people and left alone.

Where's the "pushing"? Has a single gay person ever said "Well, it's unfortunate that you condemn my lifestyle, but if you'd just try it..." The extreme side of the anti-gay movement actually says it can be "cured". Sound like pushing an agenda?

Both sides are pushing an agenda . . . I never said otherwise.

In this very thread there's a story about condemnation in the name of God causing a decade's worth of personal torment over something that the person couldn't and can't change. It's hurtful, it's ruining lives, and it needs to stop. It can be cloaked in the Bible as much as you want, and I'd tell you simply that either the book or the reader are, frankly, ethically, wrong.

Addiction, guilt . . . comes in all shapes and sizes.

Talk about "hating the sin, not the sinner," but here's a news flash. Hate a "sin" that the "sinner" cannot change to your satisfaction except to deny their true selves and you do hate the sinner. You drive them to hate themselves; you drive a frightening number of them to suicide. You can't really love them unless they pretend to have vanquished a beast you've saddled them with--so, in my eyes, you can't really love them.

If someone wants to change and works at it they can. Using a group of people who believe different than you is as wrong as a christian condemning "all sinners" . . . especially because we are all sinners.

If someone finds that the evil demon of modern culture is undermining their preciously-held closed-minded values, well, I can't shy from comparing those values to those of theocratic, fundamentalist, militant Islamists, who started a war to "protect" a society whose constituents have been trying to outgrow it. In some places it's women in burqa and literal death for heretics, in some places it's hysterics about the "sanctity" of a social convention that its own (hetero) adherents are doing plenty well at destroying themselves (>50% divorce rates), but living in the past is living in the past.

And before it gets suggested, insinuated, or what have, I'm not even gay--I just like to think of myself as rational.

You say modern culture and I say not accepting popular opinion.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 11:04 PM

It appears that even the supporters on this thread of homosexuality concede that it is a sin....

I don't think that's true. Personally, I was only conceding that for the sake of argument. I know why most people believe it's a sin, I just think they're wrong. But what I have a problem with more than people thinking it's a sin is the hypocrisy of those people in most cases. They gloss over their own sins, but publicly condemn homosexuality because that's one sin they don't want to commit. Stage an anti-fornication rally and see how much response you get compared to an anti-gay rally. If people are true to their faith you'll have equal attendance at both, because a sin is a sin, right? Good luck with that. People who have trouble following their own religion have no business trying to foist it others.

Sooner_Bob

6/19/2006, 11:05 PM

I don't think that's true. Personally, I was only conceding that for the sake of argument. I know why most people believe it's a sin, I just think they're wrong. But what I have a problem with more than people thinking it's a sin is the hypocrisy of those people in most cases. They gloss over their own sins, but publicly condemn homosexuality because that's one sin they don't want to commit. Stage an anti-fornication rally and see how much response you get compared to an anti-gay rally. If people are true to their faith you'll have equal attendance at both, because a sin is a sin, right? Good luck with that. People who have trouble following their own religion have no business trying to foist it others.

There are some people who do try to stay fairly consistent with their beliefs. Others . . . not so much.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 11:14 PM

Umm, because there are so many people who don't like being told how to live or worship.

Imagine that--some people don't think they should base their entire lives on the ideas of people who are just as imperfect as they are. With any organized religion that's what it ultimately comes down to.

Because some places want to lighten the message so to speak while others sharpen it and then there's the places that do their best to follow the Word.

Who decides which denomination is right? Imperfect humans certainly aren't capable of figuring that out. You can believe your denomination has it right--or else you'd switch churches--but how can you be 100% sure of that? I'm guessing that most people stick with the church they grew up in. Do they think they're so special that they just happened to be born into the right church? If not, they have to allow for at least the possibility that they're church has it at least partially wrong. This applies not just to different denominations of Christianity, but Christianity vs. Judaism vs. Islam, etc.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 11:16 PM

There are some people who do try to stay fairly consistent with their beliefs.

I know people like this, and I have a world of respect for them even though I disagree with them.

ChickSoonerFan

6/19/2006, 11:19 PM

I don't think that's true. Personally, I was only conceding that for the sake of argument. I know why most people believe it's a sin, I just think they're wrong. But what I have a problem with more than people thinking it's a sin is the hypocrisy of those people in most cases. They gloss over their own sins, but publicly condemn homosexuality because that's one sin they don't want to commit. Stage an anti-fornication rally and see how much response you get compared to an anti-gay rally. If people are true to their faith you'll have equal attendance at both, because a sin is a sin, right? Good luck with that. People who have trouble following their own religion have no business trying to foist it others.

OK...fine...you were only conceding for the sake of argument. So, you don't think it is a sin? Do you think fornication is a sin? Adultry?

I think part of the reason there is a public condemnation is because of the very fact that there are some that are trying to say it is not a sin. I think it is a sin, I also think fornicating and adultry are a sin but I am not trying to convince the public that me fornicating is not a sin.

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 11:20 PM

personally I really don't need a church to tell me that it's wrong.

seriously md have you tried it? if not why? Is it wrong and disgusting to you or do you think you might have sex with some guy in the future.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:21 PM

Imagine that--some people don't think they should base their entire lives on the ideas of people who are just as imperfect as they are. With any organized religion that's what it ultimately comes down to.

Religion isn't really about that. I know you seem to think it is, but my religious beliefs are still based on the Bible, not necessarily everything the church tells me. I believe 99% of what my church teaches, but I also have a few things I differ in.

Who decides which denomination is right? Imperfect humans certainly aren't capable of figuring that out. You can believe your denomination has it right--or else you'd switch churches--but how can you be 100% sure of that? I'm guessing that most people stick with the church they grew up in. Do they think they're so special that they just happened to be born into the right church? If not, they have to allow for at least the possibility that they're church has it at least partially wrong. This applies not just to different denominations of Christianity, but Christianity vs. Judaism vs. Islam, etc.

Most Christians, I think, don't think that the denomination is that big of a deal. I believe that true Christians from all the basic denominations are going to Heaven. Now.....if certain churches are going to start changing things like whether homosexuality is a sin, then I may start disagreeing with more of the major teachings of some of these churches. I don't think you necessarily have to believe that being gay is a sin though to get to Heaven.

Scott D

6/19/2006, 11:21 PM

The most ironic comment a gay person has ever told me was that I was 'living in sin' because I lived with my wife before we were married.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:22 PM

The most ironic comment a gay person has ever told me was that I was 'living in sin' because I lived with my wife before we were married.

SINNER!!!!!

Scott D

6/19/2006, 11:23 PM

SINNER!!!!!

pot...meet...kettle :D

ChickSoonerFan

6/19/2006, 11:23 PM

The most ironic comment a gay person has ever told me was that I was 'living in sin' because I lived with my wife before we were married.

Exactly....you and him both were living in sin.

:D

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:24 PM

pot...meet...kettle :D

If sexin' up hawt wimmins is wrong.....I don't want to be right. :texan:

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 11:24 PM

The most ironic comment a gay person has ever told me was that I was 'living in sin' because I lived with my wife before we were married.

living in sin was a Bon Jovi video when I was HS

Scott D

6/19/2006, 11:24 PM

Exactly....you and him both were living in sin.

:D

he was more sinful because he hit on me faster than Stanley in a Middle School playground ;)

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:25 PM

he was more sinful because he hit on me faster than Stanley in a Middle School playground ;)

Thats cause you have alot of gay qualities about you. Don't be ashamed. :D

Scott D

6/19/2006, 11:26 PM

Thats cause you have alot of gay qualities about you. Don't be ashamed. :D

but I don't play softball! :D

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 11:35 PM

OK...fine...you were only conceding for the sake of argument. So, you don't think it is a sin? Do you think fornication is a sin? Adultry?

I'm generally agnostic, so I don't believe in sin per se. As far as morality, I believe in the Golden Rule. That's the one thing all the world's religions have in common, and I think the truth is in the similarities, not the differences. So, you can do whatever your want as long as it doesn't harm anybody else. Being gay? Nobody's business. Fornication? Nobody's business. Adultery? There's typically an injured third-party in that situation, so generally not OK.

I see what you're saying about nobody claiming that fornication isn't a sin, but I don't think that's true. Almost nobody makes a big deal about it because that's one sin most people are unrepentently guilty of--if they really thought it was wrong they'd stop doing it. Instead, they've convinced themselve that it's a "little white sin", and that's okay because they're saved or they go to confession so it's all good in the end anyway. But those homo freaks are all going to burn in hell.

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 11:37 PM

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:39 PM

But those homo freaks are all going to burn in hell.

And that is where your argument falls apart. Not one person on this board, to my knowledge, has said that. And for the most part, that is not what the anti-gay rallies are about (save a few nut-cases). Homosexuality is just like any other sin in God's eyes. So long as the gay is "saved", it doesn't matter if he is molesting young girls, killing nuns, or sticking his pecker in some dude.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 11:43 PM

seriously md have you tried it? if not why? Is it wrong and disgusting to you or do you think you might have sex with some guy in the future.

Do I think it's "wrong and disgusting"? Since I'm not gay I guess I do on a certain level--moreso disgusting than wrong. It's certainly an abberation, but is so is being left-handed or having red hair. I don't think it's immoral. Like I said before, I think eating shellfish is disgusting, too, but it's certainly not my place to tell somesobody else how to live their lives insofar as it doesn't interfere with mine.

ChickSoonerFan

6/19/2006, 11:43 PM

I'm generally agnostic, so I don't believe in sin per se. As far as morality, I believe in the Golden Rule. That's the one thing all the world's religions have in common, and I think the truth is in the similarities, not the differences. So, you can do whatever your want as long as it doesn't harm anybody else. Being gay? Nobody's business. Fornication? Nobody's business. Adultery? There's typically an injured third-party in that situation, so generally not OK.

I see what you're saying about nobody claiming that fornication isn't a sin, but I don't think that's true. Almost nobody makes a big deal about it because that's one sin most people are unrepentently guilty of--if they really thought it was wrong they'd stop doing it. Instead, they've convinced themselve that it's a "little white sin", and that's okay because they're saved or they go to confession so it's all good in the end anyway. But those homo freaks are all going to burn in hell.

I don't think of them as homo freaks and I don't think they are all going to hell...I think if they are saved, they will go to heaven with the rest of us sinners who are saved. And I still say there is a huge difference between committing sin and knowing it is sin and committing a sin and trying to say it is not a sin. I know very few Christians that go around and promote fornication as an act approved by God, as not a sin. The church I attend actually comes down just as hard if not harder on fornication as homosexuallity.

Scott D

6/19/2006, 11:45 PM

I don't think of them as homo freaks and I don't think they are all going to hell...I think if they are saved, they will go to heaven with the rest of us sinners who are saved. And I still say there is a huge difference between committing sin and knowing it is sin and committing a sin and trying to say it is not a sin. I know very few Christians that go around and promote fornication as an act approved by God, as not a sin. The church I attend actually comes down just as hard if not harder on fornication as homosexuallity.

so....what kind of punishment are we talking here? ;)

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:47 PM

so....what kind of punishment are we talking here? ;)

Whips and chains, handcuffs, smack a little booty..... :D

Scott D

6/19/2006, 11:47 PM

Whips and chains, handcuffs, smack a little booty..... :D

damn...there goes the idea of reporting you to them so you get 'the rack' :D

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:49 PM

damn...there goes the idea of reporting you to them so you get 'the rack' :D

SWEET!

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 11:49 PM

And I still say there is a huge difference between committing sin and knowing it is sin and committing a sin and trying to say it is not a sin.

When you frame it like this you're talking about doing something that you do think is wrong, and doing something that you don't think is wrong. I agree there's a huge difference--don't you think the first case is far worse?

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 11:51 PM

Do I think it's "wrong and disgusting"? Since I'm not gay I guess I do on a certain level--moreso disgusting than wrong. It's certainly an abberation, but is so is being left-handed or having red hair. I don't think it's immoral. Like I said before, I think eating shellfish is disgusting, too, but it's certainly not my place to tell somesobody else how to live their lives insofar as it doesn't interfere with mine.

thanks for being honest, and if you'll be honest again I bet you'll admit you'd try writing with your left hand or dying your hair red or eating shellfish a thousand times over before you had sex with another man.

even though you say there's nothing wrong with it, like you said it's disgusting and even though you'd at least try to sign your name with your left hand, or eating shellfish, or dying your hair you wouldn't have sex with another man because you know it's wrong

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:53 PM

When you frame it like this you're talking about doing something that you do think is wrong, and doing something that you don't think is wrong. I agree there's a huge difference--don't you think the first case is far worse?

I'm not Chick, but I don't think so, no.

Again, its hard for us to have this debate, b/c I believe in the Bible, and you don't. As such, we'll never agree.

But my stand is that the Bible states that we are all sinners. If man was capable of "not sinning", we wouldn't need to be saved to get to Heaven. Fact is, God created us an imperfect humans, incapable of "not sinning". Again, if you believe in the Bible, you understand the correlation between knowing that something is a sin, and still doing it.

My biggest problem with gays (and others) saying that homosexuality is not a sin, is that most aren't Christians. You'd be hard pressed to be a church-attending Christian and not think being gay is a sin.

PhilTLL

6/19/2006, 11:55 PM

even though you say there's nothing wrong with it, like you said it's disgusting and even though you'd at least try to sign your name with your left hand, or eating shellfish, or dying your hair you wouldn't have sex with another man because you know it's wrong

Eating shellfish doesn't involve an innate attraction. I would venture that he doesn't have sex with other men because he knows he's not attracted to them.

Edited to save another post:

My biggest problem with gays (and others) saying that homosexuality is not a sin, is that most aren't Christians. You'd be hard pressed to be a church-attending Christian and not think being gay is a sin.

I can completely understand this, actually, but I think the argument from the other side isn't that their homosexuality is not within your view of sin, but that your view of sin shouldn't be used to deny them rights or intimidate them.

ChickSoonerFan

6/19/2006, 11:56 PM

When you frame it like this you're talking about doing something that you do think is wrong, and doing something that you don't think is wrong. I agree there's a huge difference--don't you think the first case is far worse?

I think they are both wrong..but I am not trying to convince myself and the rest of the world that what I am doing is not wrong...to me that is hypocrisy in the worst sense.

I do not go around telling people, go ahead, do it, do it, do it and do not worry about the consequences because there are none. The truth is the consequences I believe for both are here, on earth. Sex outside of marriage leads to unplanned pregnancy, STDs, emotional pain, confusion, plenty of things. Many of these apply to homosexuals too. Again, my issue is that to say it is not a sin is wrong. Period.

nmsoonergirl

6/19/2006, 11:57 PM

But, if a gay couple showed up at your church and acknowledged that gayness was a sin, you'd treat them the same as you'd treat a hetero couple that you knew was fornicating?

usmc-sooner

6/19/2006, 11:59 PM

Eating shellfish doesn't involve an innate attraction. I would venture that he doesn't have sex with other men because he knows he's not attracted to them.

well I'll make a bet with you, md or anyone else out there. I'll try writing left handed, dying my hair red, eating shellfish or any other animal out there. You on the other hand let some guy have sex with you. If there's nothing wrong with it shouldn't be a problem. If it's no different than eating shellfish, or being lefthanded or red-headed this won't be a problem.

Stanley1

6/19/2006, 11:59 PM

But, if a gay couple showed up at your church and acknowledged that gayness was a sin, you'd treat them the same as you'd treat a hetero couple that you knew was fornicating?

Treat how?

nmsoonergirl

6/20/2006, 12:01 AM

Would you welcome that couple to your church? Or would you think it was inappropriate for them to be there?

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 12:01 AM

I know very few Christians that go around and promote fornication as an act approved by God, as not a sin.

But a lot of them still do it, right? It's easy to not get laid; most of us have to go out of our way to have sex. So not only are these people sinning, they are putting forth conscious effort to do so--in many cases involving elaborate planning and considerable expense. Of all sins, this is one of the easiest to avoid.

ChickSoonerFan

6/20/2006, 12:03 AM

But, if a gay couple showed up at your church and acknowledged that gayness was a sin, you'd treat them the same as you'd treat a hetero couple that you knew was fornicating?

As long as neither couple tried to go around and convince the rest of the church that what they were doing was not a sin..then yes!

Why would I not be thrilled to have them attending church?

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 12:04 AM

but that your view of sin shouldn't be used to deny them rights or intimidate them.

I agree with both of those statements. Just b/c I don't condone being gay, doesn't mean I go gay bashing, or treat them "poorly".

ChickSoonerFan

6/20/2006, 12:04 AM

PhilTLL

6/20/2006, 12:05 AM

well I'll make a bet with you, md or anyone else out there. I'll try writing left handed, dying my hair red, eating shellfish or any other animal out there. You on the other hand let some guy have sex with you. If there's nothing wrong with it shouldn't be a problem. If it's no different than eating shellfish, or being lefthanded or red-headed this won't be a problem.

My point is they're all matters of personal preference (whether hard-wired or acquired taste), but you're nitpicking the differences in the behaviors themselves. One of the above is an intimate, deeply personal moment, one is a matter of dexterity, and the rest are matters of aesthetics. If eating shellfish and having gay sex (or any sex) both occurred in a seafood restaurant, I'd accept the argument. :) They are both condemned in Leviticus, though...hmm.

More simply put, it's not like asking someone to try writing opposite-handed, it's like asking them to be opposite-handed. If you tell them it's right and proper to use the opposite hand, they might strive to, and eventually be pretty good at writing with it, but they probably won't ever feel right about it.

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 12:06 AM

But a lot of them still do it, right? It's easy to not get laid; most of us have to go out of our way to have sex. So not only are these people sinning, they are putting forth conscious effort to do so--in many cases involving elaborate planning and considerable expense. Of all sins, this is one of the easiest to avoid.

Man was not created to function that way. If you won't accept that, then there is nothing more to argue on this point. Man cannot keep from sinning, thus the reason we needed Jesus to die on the cross for our sins.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 12:12 AM

My point is they're all matters of personal preference, but you're nitpicking the differences in the behaviors themselves. One of the above is an intimate, deeply personal moment, one is a matter of dexterity, and the rest are matters of aesthetics. If eating shellfish and having gay sex (or any sex) both occurred in a seafood restaurant, I'd accept the argument. :)

I'll eat shellfish in any restaraunt, if there's nothing wrong with being gay. I'll video tape myself eating shellfish or any other animal you want. You have gay sex videotaped and you win the bet. Shoot it's all the same right? Nothing wrong with it. I see MD who thinks it's disgusting hasn't taken the offer.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 12:14 AM

Not one person on this board, to my knowledge, has said that.

I'm not sure about that, but I didn't mean to impy that anybody had.

And for the most part, that is not what the anti-gay rallies are about (save a few nut-cases). Homosexuality is just like any other sin in God's eyes. So long as the gay is "saved", it doesn't matter if he is molesting young girls, killing nuns, or sticking his pecker in some dude.

Fine, but I guarantee there's more hetero fornication in this country than homosexuality, and it's certainly being pushed down our throats by pop culture and the "liberal media" by orders of magnitude more than homosexuality is. Is anybody in the "moral majority" getting their panties in a bunch over The Break-Up? That's a movie centered around a sinful relationship, and any 13-year-old can see it. Contrast this to Brokeback Mountain. Clearly not all sins are created equal, and it's the least popular one that's being singled out.

nmsoonergirl

6/20/2006, 12:15 AM

Man was not created to function that way..

I'm NOT trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to understand.

In what way? Man wasn't created to try to avoid sin? I understand the idea of man is imperfect and can't be saved without Jesus Christ. But isn't part of our job to TRY to avoid falling short. You should really try hard not to murder. If you believe all sins are equal in God's eyes, shouldn't you try just as hard to avoid fornicating?

I'm getting a little off topic here, but I'm curious. Thanks for being willing to talk about it.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 12:16 AM

As easy as homosexual sex is to avoid? Agreed.

Right...there's no difference, but which sin gets all the negative attention?

nmsoonergirl

6/20/2006, 12:18 AM

Right...there's no difference, but which sin gets all the negative attention?

Exactly.

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 12:18 AM

I'm NOT trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to understand.

In what way? Man wasn't created to try to avoid sin? I understand the idea of man is imperfect and can't be saved without Jesus Christ. But isn't part of our job to TRY to avoid falling short. You should really try hard not to murder. If you believe all sins are equal in God's eyes, shouldn't you try just as hard to avoid fornicating?

I'm getting a little off topic here, but I'm curious. Thanks for being willing to talk about it.

I completely agree that we should "try" to not sin in our lives. What man wasn't created to be able to do is to actually be successful in avoiding sin.

But I agree with you that Christians should be trying their best to avoid sinful things. And while making the choice to participate in fornication may seem like you aren't trying, I don't think that is the truth. I think that is just an example of man not being able to avoid such things.

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 12:20 AM

Right...there's no difference, but which sin gets all the negative attention?

I'll admit that being gay does, but I'm not sure what that proves, other than PEOPLE (not God) are more okay with something that is still somewhat natural (guy/girl sex) over something that is not only sinful, but unnatural.

Goes back to people not being perfect, but that doesn't change the fact that being gay is sinful.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 12:22 AM

Right...there's no difference, but which sin gets all the negative attention?

aint no differenct then take me up on my bet

or at least respond to me why you wouldn't try it once even though there's nothing wrong with it.

you could hit a homerun if you bitch slapped me on my bet.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 12:23 AM

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 12:28 AM

For me, there is no connection between being disgusting and being immoral. Is the only thing keeping you from being gay the fact that the Bible says it's wrong? Of course not...right?

no if you read through this thread you'll clearly see that I've posted that it doesn't take the Bible to tell me this wrong.

so what about my bet if there's nothing wrong with it, try it and I'll eat any kind of fish, dog, cat any animal you want, I'll right left handed, dye my hair red, donate $1000 dollars to a political or charity group of your choice, I'll let you pick who I vote for

If there's nothing wrong with it's easy money

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 12:31 AM

I think that is just an example of man not being able to avoid such things.

Believe me, it can be avoided a lot more than most people seem to manage. It's not like you accidentally step in a puddle of poontang while walking down the street.

nmsoonergirl

6/20/2006, 12:31 AM

aint no differenct then take me up on my bet

or at least respond to me why you wouldn't try it once even though there's nothing wrong with it.

you could hit a homerun if you bitch slapped me on my bet.
I don't know md, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are probably some heterosexual acts he wouldn't be interested in either.
I think you pretty much established earlier that you wouldn't participate in back door sex with your wife. Do you actual believe that is immoral, or are you just disgusted by it?

Mongo

6/20/2006, 12:33 AM

PhilTLL

6/20/2006, 12:34 AM

nmsoonergirl

6/20/2006, 12:35 AM

ChickSoonerFan

6/20/2006, 12:37 AM

Believe me, it can be avoided a lot more than most people seem to manage. It's not like you accidentally step in a puddle of poontang while walking down the street.

Same things with homosexual sex....it can be avoided too...it's not like some dude accidently...well...nevermind. Just sayin

But why should they be given a free ride to commit that act? Why not go ahead and declare fornication is not a sin? Why is only homosexual sex not a sin? Makes no sense.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 12:40 AM

I don't know md, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are probably some heterosexual acts he wouldn't be interested in either.
I think you pretty much established earlier that you wouldn't participate in back door sex with your wife. Do you actual believe that is immoral, or are you just disgusted by it?

I love her and respect her.

She bore my children, I would never do anything to cause her pain. I wouldn't ask my wife to subject herself to this.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 12:41 AM

no if you read through this thread you'll clearly see that I've posted that it doesn't take the Bible to tell me this wrong.

so what about my bet if there's nothing wrong with it, try it and I'll eat any kind of fish, dog, cat any animal you want, I'll right left handed, dye my hair red, donate $1000 dollars to a political or charity group of your choice, I'll let you pick who I vote for

If there's nothing wrong with it's easy money

What part of "disgusting is not immoral" don't you understand? Are you getting hung up on the word "wrong"? Okay, fine: It's wrong because I'm not gay. If I was gay, it wouldn't be wrong. It's also wrong for me to write left-handed. For that matter, it would it be physically easier for me to PIITB than it would be for me to write me name left-handed. I guess that makes being left-handed more "wrong" than being gay. Given enough practice I imagine I could learn to write left-handed. So maybe they're both equally wrong.

soonerscuba

6/20/2006, 12:42 AM

Man, I know I'm a noob, but I think a few people need to come out of the closet. If homosexuality is no big deal why do so many people go to bat for it? Shouldnt people who support it just blow off(not blow us) us stupid, ignorant bigots? Homosexuality is NOT a natural act, look at any secular science book taught in public schools, and it never mentions nailing a dude in the sh!tter.

Um, homosexuality is pretty natural. I learned that in one of those fancy learnin' books. Hey, I personally don't think it is appealing, even the male/female variety.But, homosexuality is well documented in nature, and at the end of the day we are still natural creatures.

soonerscuba

6/20/2006, 12:43 AM

Fornication must have been cleared by the Baptists, I have some "experience" in this particular doctrine.

Mongo

6/20/2006, 12:44 AM

Dude, we're justing talking. Settle down.

I'm settled, just wondering why so many people love /support gays?

nmsoonergirl

6/20/2006, 12:46 AM

Same things with homosexual sex....it can be avoided too...it's not like some dude accidently...well...nevermind. Just sayin

But why should they be given a free ride to commit that act? Why not go ahead and declare fornication is not a sin? Why is only homosexual sex not a sin? Makes no sense.

In all honesty, I'm not convinced God really cares about either one, but that's just me....

I think I understand where you are coming from. I have spoken to people in the past who have seemed very hypocrytical to me, acting like homosexuality is a much "worse" sin than most others, and I've never understood why people think it's any worse that any other extramarital sex.

Mongo

6/20/2006, 12:49 AM

Um, homosexuality is pretty natural. I learned that in one of those fancy learnin' books. Hey, I personally don't think it is appealing, even the male/female variety.But, homosexuality is well documented in nature, and at the end of the day we are still natural creatures.

Natural? How?:chicken: doesnt pair up with the brown eye? Well documented? Just because "Manhole" magazine approves of homosexuality, doesnt mean it is well documented.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 12:51 AM

What part of "disgusting is not immoral" don't you understand? Are you getting hung up on the word "wrong"? Okay, fine: It's wrong because I'm not gay. If I was gay, it wouldn't be wrong. It's also wrong for me to write left-handed. For that matter, it would it be physically easier for me to PIITB than it would be for me to write me name left-handed. I guess that makes being left-handed more "wrong" than being gay. Given enough practice I imagine I could learn to write left-handed. So maybe they're both equally wrong.

well I'm willing to eat a dog or cat and I think that's pretty disgusting.

so your saying that since your straight it's disgusting and wrong but if you were gay it wouldn't be.

so if I was a serial killer (although I don't see gays in this light) as long as I was that way it wouldn't be wrong.

I still got a $1000 dollars says you wont take the bet even though you think it's not wrong, I will donate money to Cindy Shehan and worship in a Muslim church for a year--and oh man you don't know how much I hate muslims -
take the bet

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 12:54 AM

But why should they be given a free ride to commit that act?

Because hetero sinners are being given a free ride, relatively speaking. I haven't heard the Bush administration calling for a constitutional ammendment against fornication, adultery, or divorce. Surely those are as detrimental to "family values" as gay marriage, if not more so.

Why not go ahead and declare fornication is not a sin?

Now you're talkin'. :texan:

PhilTLL

6/20/2006, 01:01 AM

I'm settled, just wondering why so many people love /support gays?

Here I was thinking the major rule in life is to try to love and support everyone. What was I thinking? :confused:

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 01:04 AM

Here I was thinking the major rule in life is to try to love and support everyone. What was I thinking? :confused:

nah that's the Christian view

survival of the fittest, that's nature's view.

Mongo

6/20/2006, 01:06 AM

Here I was thinking the major rule in life is to try to love and support everyone. What was I thinking? :confused:

I agree, but that does not mean approve of everything someone does. So by your standard, armed robbery is cool?

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 01:08 AM

so your saying that since your straight it's disgusting and wrong but if you were gay it wouldn't be.

It wouldn't be disgusting to me to eat oysters if I actually liked oysters, would it?

so if I was a serial killer (although I don't see gays in this light) as long as I was that way it wouldn't be wrong.

Why do people always make this fantastic leap of logic? Is there an innocent victim in murder? Yes. Who is the innocent victim of butt sex?

I still got a $1000 dollars says you wont take the bet even though you think it's not wrong, I will donate money to Cindy Shehan and worship in a Muslim church for a year--and oh man you don't know how much I hate muslims -
take the bet

Why do you want me to have sex with another man? You've brought this up like a dozen times already. I suppose you'll want to see a video of it for proof, right? ;)

Seriously, what part of "I'm not gay" don't you understand? ONCE AGAIN, being disgusting is not the same as being immoral. I already told you it would be wrong for me to have gay sex. Why? Repeat after me: I AM NOT GAY. In the same sense, it would be wrong for me to write left-handed--but not as disgusting. I'd sooner try to write left-handed than PIITB, but I imagine I'd be better at the latter without practice. I would rather try to write left-handed than eat an oyster, even though I'd be more successful at eating the oyster--assuming I didn't gag. You're conflating like three for four different concepts here.

And why do you think I want to give $1000 to Cindy Sheehan or a mosque?

PhilTLL

6/20/2006, 01:09 AM

I agree, but that does not mean approve of everything someone does. So by your standard, armed robbery is cool?

Ah, but that's not what you asked. You asked "why so many people love/support gays," not "gay sex." Raising a violent crime as a comparison to a consensual sex act is what they call a false analogy, anyway.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 01:10 AM

Here I was thinking the major rule in life is to try to love and support everyone. What was I thinking? :confused:

aint nobody jumped on my offer yet?

you'd think if wasn't so wrong someone who wasn't gay would junp all over it

Jimminy Crimson

6/20/2006, 01:11 AM

I'm settled, just wondering why so many people love /support gays?

Maybe everyone who supports it is gay? :confused: :twinkies:

PhilTLL

6/20/2006, 01:13 AM

aint nobody jumped on my offer yet?

you'd think if wasn't so wrong someone who wasn't gay would junp all over it

I just don't think any of us have any more ways to phrase "because gay sex is unappealing to non-gays does not make it wrong". That's my last shot at it.

Jimminy Crimson

6/20/2006, 01:16 AM

I forget who it was on the first episode of one of the old Real Worlds, but they put it best about gays...

Chicks is cool as hell, but dudes is disgusting :cool:

Mongo

6/20/2006, 01:16 AM

Ah, but that's not what you asked. You asked "why so many people love/support gays," not "gay sex." Raising a violent crime as a comparison to a consensual sex act is what they call a false analogy, anyway.

but you brought up someones wrong doings and supporting them. Nice ****in contest of words though.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 01:19 AM

but you brought up someones wrong doings and supporting them. Nice ****in contest of words though.

But not everybody thinks gay sex is a wrongdoing in the first place.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 01:19 AM

Why do you want me to have sex with another man? You've brought this up like a dozen times already. I suppose you'll want to see a video of it for proof, right? ;)

Seriously, what part of "I'm not gay" don't you understand? ONCE AGAIN, being disgusting is not the same as being immoral. I already told you it would be wrong for me to have gay sex. Why? Repeat after me: I AM NOT GAY. In the same sense, it would be wrong for me to write left-handed--but not as disgusting. I'd sooner try to write left-handed than PIITB, but I imagine I'd be better at the latter without practice. I would rather try to write left-handed than eat an oyster, even though I'd be more successful at eating the oyster--assuming I didn't gag. You're conflating like three for four different concepts here.

And why do you think I want to give $1000 to Cindy Sheehan or a mosque?

I don't have anything against you md

but you keep saying it's not wrong, you've compared it to eating shellfish, being lefthanded and being redheaded, not me.

Seriously if there is nothing wrong with it why not give it a try? You're already to jump my butt about being intolerant but you've already admitted you think it's disgusting and you're not willing to try it.

Does that make me or you the hypocrite? I think it's wrong and disgusting and I wouldn't do it for a million dollars. You keep saying however disgusting it's not wrong, so that means for some other reason than it being disgusting you wouldn't try it. Basically you think it's wrong but you won't admit it.

SoonerBorn68

6/20/2006, 01:26 AM

I'm settled, just wondering why so many people love /support gays?

Dude, you're oilfield trash...If you were one of these refined intellectuals, you'd understand. ;)

Mongo

6/20/2006, 01:33 AM

But not everybody thinks gay sex is a wrongdoing in the first place.

Then show me a stone cold fact that it isnt a wrong doing. You dont believe in the Bible's interpretation, so prove without a shadow of a doubt that its OK(without using science, since it is a fallable man's opinion). We attack the act/thought of homosexuality, you attack those that oppose it(bigot, ingorant, homophobe).

Mongo

6/20/2006, 01:35 AM

Dude, you're oilfield trash...If you were one of these refined intellectuals, you'd understand. ;)

Yes mastah, I'll get back to work and wont fight back.:D

SoonerBorn68

6/20/2006, 01:35 AM

Mongo, it's their peckers and they've got a right to put them into pencil sharpeners if they want...and then have a parade.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 01:36 AM

but you keep saying it's not wrong, you've compared it to eating shellfish, being lefthanded and being redheaded, not me.

What do you mean by "wrong"? I've already said two or three times it's wrong for me. I wouldn't have sex with Janet Reno if you gave me $1000 either--what does that prove?

Seriously if there is nothing wrong with it why not give it a try? You're already to jump my butt about being intolerant but you've already admitted you think it's disgusting and you're not willing to try it.

Oh good lord. You don't really think tolerance is the same as participation do you?

Does that make me or you the hypocrite?

From what you've said here I don't think you're a hypocrite. Mistaken, but not a hypocrite.

Basically you think it's wrong but you won't admit it.

Read through the thread again, carefully. I've called it wrong at least two or three times--depending on what you mean by "wrong", of course.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 01:38 AM

Then show me a stone cold fact that it isnt a wrong doing. You dont believe in the Bible's interpretation, so prove without a shadow of a doubt that its OK(without using science, since it is a fallable man's opinion). We attack the act/thought of homosexuality, you attack those that oppose it(bigot, ingorant, homophobe).

Show me a stone cold fact that it is.

There is no victim, so it's not "wrong".

Octavian

6/20/2006, 01:47 AM

Politics is about compromises. I'd like to offer a few compromise suggestions for the issue of same sex marriage.

It's okay to be gay and get married...if you're already gay. But no new gays.

Or...with both sides so set, one being all for gay marriage, and the other completely against it, how about we just let the lesbians marry? I mean, come on, marriage is a chick thing, anyway.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4940/178815126ly.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mongo

6/20/2006, 01:48 AM

Show me a stone cold fact that it is.

There is no victim, so it's not "wrong".

Through MY FAITH it is wrong, and I dont expect everyone to fall in line. So it is "not wrong"? That is your standard? Way to set the bar high. We all know that man's opinion is right, hell, it is infallable. Once again, I disagree with homo acts/lifestyle, not the person who occupies said lifestyle. People(non-Christians) hate the fact that there is an opposition to their "fact" and will attack them personnally.

olevetonahill

6/20/2006, 01:49 AM

Show me a stone cold fact that it is.

There is no victim, so it's not "wrong".
Does some one have a sore Azz here ?:D

olevetonahill

6/20/2006, 01:51 AM

Through MY FAITH it is wrong, and I dont expect everyone to fall in line. So it is "not wrong"? That is your standard? Way to set the bar high. We all know that man's opinion is right, hell, it is infallable. Once again, I disagree with homo acts/lifestyle, not the person who occupies said lifestyle. People(non-Christians) hate the fact that there is an opposition to their "fact" and will attack them personnally.
hey another 176 posts you can give some Green :D

SoonerBorn68

6/20/2006, 01:53 AM

Damn Octavian I thought you'd never get through 9 pages. :D

SoonerBorn68

6/20/2006, 01:54 AM

hey another 176 posts you can give some Green :D

He just might get that in this thread.;)

Octavian

6/20/2006, 01:55 AM

He just might get that in this thread.;)

yup...we haven't even got to global warming yet.

Octavian

6/20/2006, 01:56 AM

Damn Octavian I thought you'd never get through 9 pages. :D

I finished off a couple boxes of popcorn ;)

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 02:00 AM

Through MY FAITH it is wrong, and I dont expect everyone to fall in line.

We've already established that not everybody shares your faith, so that's not going to work for everybody.

So it is "not wrong"? That is your standard? Way to set the bar high.

Are we reading the same thread? :confused:

Since we're not ever going to agree on everything we think is wrong, how about we settle on common ground as far as public behavior and laws are concerned.

If there's a victim, it's wrong. Everything else is a personal choice. Now all that's left is figure out if there's a victim. Who is the victim in a consensual gay relationship?

disagree with homo acts/lifestyle, not the person who occupies said lifestyle

Then don't be gay and you're golden, right?

People(non-Christians) hate the fact that there is an opposition to their "fact" and will attack them personnally.

Again, I don't know what you're talking about with this thread, but in general I'm pretty sure it wasn't the homotarians who cast the first stone. All they want is to be left alone--just like you do. You know why there aren't any homosexual pride parades? Because nobody jumps up your ***--so to speak--for being straight.

Mongo

6/20/2006, 02:25 AM

So it is "not wrong"? That is your standard? Way to set the bar high. We all know that man's opinion is right, hell, it is infallable

[mdklatt]Are we reading the same thread?

Since we're not ever going to agree on everything we think is wrong, how about we settle on common ground as far as public behavior and laws are concerned.

If there's a victim, it's wrong. Everything else is a personal choice. Now all that's left is figure out if there's a victim. Who is the victim in a consensual gay relationship?[mdklatt]

If your going to quote me, include all of the point, not what just what you want to. You are griping that Christians are claiming it is wrong. Prove that it isnt? Your opinion has no factual basis, but you are willing to accept it as the truth. I know we will never see eye to eye, but you base all your reasoning and thought process on a pipedream created by man. At least I have come to grips that my opinions that originate through faith may not be accepted. Lets base all our laws on what man says, since me, you, and everybody else's opinion is right, why has this thread extended this long? No one on Earth has the answer.

SoonerBorn68

6/20/2006, 02:41 AM

Mongo

6/20/2006, 02:56 AM

Mongo, don't you have some samples to take or some mud to log? :D

Oh, and the trainee driller's afraid to put the weight to it...:mad: 45 feet to go & he skeered. Hell, if he breaks the motor, we're goin' home anyway.

You arent talking that gay stuff to me are ya?:D
Heck SB68, I'm all caught up. Tell that runt to push on it and TD that sumbitch so you can get outta dodge. Whats a motor worth, 100-200 dollars?:D I got about 2000 ft. to go, so in the mean time, I'll bust some skulls.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 03:10 AM

If your going to quote me, include all of the point, not what just what you want to.

I would if I understood it.

You are griping that Christians are claiming it is wrong. Prove that it isnt?

You're one that wants to limit the behavior, so you prove that it's wrong.

Your opinion has no factual basis, but you are willing to accept it as the truth.

Which opinion? That there is no victim in a consensual gay relationship? Is that really debatable? Who's the victim?

I know we will never see eye to eye, but you base all your reasoning and thought process on a pipedream created by man.

How do know the Bible is nothing more than a creation of man?

Lets base all our laws on what man says, since me, you, and everybody else's opinion is right, why has this thread extended this long? No one on Earth has the answer.

How about we base our laws on the Golden Rule? Do you have a problem with that?

Check your PMs. I think you think I said something I didn't say. Or something. :confused:

olevetonahill

6/20/2006, 03:22 AM

Butt there is a victim ;)
Gotta be a sore azzhole loser in there somewhere :)

Mongo

6/20/2006, 03:34 AM

Understand it? If you cant understand it then you are a simpleton. Once again I realize that my opinion is not fact. You think that my poo stinks and yours doesnt. I concede that my faith based opinion may be wrong to some and want to limit something, but you have yet to come to grips that your's/man's opinion mounts up to a steamin pile of dog crap. The bible is created by God through man, but that is based on Christian Faith, and not expected to be understood by all. The Golden Rule? Where do you think that came from? The Bible? Now you want to base thought your thoughts on a prevelent verse in the Bible?

Give me one FACT that homosexuality is genetic/natural (not based on human knowledge) then I will bow down to your opinion. Not once through our dialogue have you wavered in your fact and only have responses to my posts. Come up with your own thoughts and not parrot back my quotes with your responses

olevetonahill

6/20/2006, 03:38 AM

173 till the Greenpoo
Oh was that in referance to your back seat ?:eek:

olevetonahill

6/20/2006, 03:44 AM

oh and happy bday to Mongo:P

Mongo

6/20/2006, 03:46 AM

oh and happy bday to Mongo:P

Thanks dude:) I have unloaded all the grey I can, but honorable spek to ya

olevetonahill

6/20/2006, 03:56 AM

Thanks dude:) I have unloaded all the "ghey" I can, but honorable spek to ya
Now Im worried about ya :eek:

Mongo

6/20/2006, 03:58 AM

Now Im worried about ya :eek:

a/s/l:D

Okla-homey

6/20/2006, 05:20 AM

In this very thread there's a story about condemnation in the name of God causing a decade's worth of personal torment over something that the person couldn't and can't change. It's hurtful, it's ruining lives, and it needs to stop. It can be cloaked in the Bible as much as you want, and I'd tell you simply that either the book or the reader are, frankly, ethically, wrong. Talk about "hating the sin, not the sinner," but here's a news flash. Hate a "sin" that the "sinner" cannot change to your satisfaction except to deny their true selves and you do hate the sinner.

I refuse to concede people of good will must accept homosexuality simply because as you say, the homosexual "can't help it." You could make precisely the same argument about any other form of sexual deviance up to and including pedophilia. I also believe people involved in the lifestyle can change, because I've actually been acquainted with a few who have. This whole "denying one's true self" argument is a canard advanced by gay apologists seeking approval for the lifestyle by equating it to the unfairness of disapproving of people because of the color of their skin.

As I've said in other threads, I don't propose hurting homosexuals. They have every legal right to do the things they do. I'm even supportive of the notion of civil unions to achieve legal and social advantages. What I oppose is the the advancement of the view that active homosexuality is an "alternative" sexual orientation that is acceptable in the eyes of God. I simply can't accept that active homosexuality could possibly be accepted when active heterosexual promiscuity isn't.

Dio

6/20/2006, 08:20 AM

How do you know that the Episcopal leader is wrong? She read the same Bible as you do and came up with a different answer. What makes you think you are more in touch with God's will than she is?

If she reads the same Bible I do and can't figure out God's view on homosexuality, her reading comprehension skills succ.

Dio

6/20/2006, 08:32 AM

What if you knowingly and repeatedly (not to mention enthisastically) commit the same sin? Doesn't that put a real damper on your moral authority?

That's why a lot of Christians oppose this Christian "leader" who endorses a sinful lifestyle.

Dio

6/20/2006, 08:33 AM

I'm really not trying to bust your chops, klatt!

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 08:41 AM

I refuse to concede people of good will must accept homosexuality simply because as you say, the homosexual "can't help it." You could make precisely the same argument about any other form of sexual deviance up to and including pedophilia. I also believe people involved in the lifestyle can change, because I've actually been acquainted with a few who have. This whole "denying one's true self" argument is a canard advanced by gay apologists seeking approval for the lifestyle by equating it to the unfairness of disapproving of people because of the color of their skin.

As I've said in other threads, I don't propose hurting homosexuals. They have every legal right to do the things they do. I'm even supportive of the notion of civil unions to achieve legal and social advantages. What I oppose is the the advancement of the view that active homosexuality is an "alternative" sexual orientation that is acceptable in the eyes of God. I simply can't accept that active homosexuality could possibly be accepted when active heterosexual promiscuity isn't.

I do believe (actually, I know) that God creates each person with different levels of sexuality. To expand on what Homey said, how is this different than my desire for sex? I have the innate desire to have sex with nearly every woman I see. If left to my own flesh and carnal desires, I would enjoy (at least temporarily) an impressive amount of fornication/adultery. However, I don't indulge these desire because it is not pleasing to the One who created me. Instead, I view this predisposition to hittin it with lots of wimmens as a trial I must overcome. I can either give in to it and satisfy myself or I can work through it to refine my character and perfect my faith. Just because somebody enjoys doing something doesn't mean they have the right to do it. It is the same with other types of sin. Some people are soft-spoken and have no difficulty in guarding their tongue while others were born with the personality of boldness and the predisposition to speak their mind. This doesn't give the second person the license to go around gossiping or being hateful to people.

And yes, I do wish that the same efforts, or more that are being directed at the homosexual lifestyle would be focused on divorce and pre/extramarital secks. But, if that was the case, what would we watch on television?

Dio

6/20/2006, 08:57 AM

I haven't heard the Bush administration calling for a constitutional ammendment against fornication, adultery, or divorce. Surely those are as detrimental to "family values" as gay marriage, if not more so.

True, but nobody is pushing for government mandated recognition for people specifically engaged in fornication, adultery, or divorce, so there is no need to amend the constitution to prevent such recognition.

Did I just say "man date"? I've been hanging out in the SO too long...

C&CDean

6/20/2006, 09:04 AM

And it's always about sex with you, isn't it?

Dude, it's the only thing that separates you from me.

I have lots of male friends whom I love dearly. Does this make me gay? So, the only thing that's different about us is the fact that you dig boinking guys, and I don't.

And leaving the whole religion thing out of it, I'm just pretty much a realist. Our bodies are plumbed a certain way for a reason. Simple as that.

And I know you'll consider it a tired, worn out argument (you guys always do when somebody places facts before you), but I still cannot differentiate the physical act of homosexuality from the physical act of any other deviant, perverse, abnormal sex act. People who screw puppies will tell you the exact same thing you're telling me. It's ingrained in their psyche. They can't help it. It's what trips their trigger. Other than ****ing dogs, they're really not much different than you or I, are they?

So yes, it is the sex.

sooner n houston

6/20/2006, 09:10 AM

I see what you're saying about nobody claiming that fornication isn't a sin, but I don't think that's true. Almost nobody makes a big deal about it because that's one sin most people are unrepentently guilty of--if they really thought it was wrong they'd stop doing it.

I don't see anyone parading around trying to get "special rights" for adultery either. To me this is the BIG difference. Gay's, and their supporters, are trying to get their "sin" categorized as "acceptable", adultery not so much!

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 09:14 AM

True, but nobody is pushing for government mandated recognition for people specifically engaged in fornication, adultery, or divorce, so there is no need to amend the constitution to prevent such recognition.

Did I just say "man date"? I've been hanging out in the SO too long...

I'm not sure your argument holds water when divorce is factored in. Divorce is legally recognized, it is a qualifying event for health insurance/retirement plans, it changes your tax status, etc. Unfortunately, it seems divorce is very much recognized by government mandate.

1stTimeCaller

6/20/2006, 09:20 AM

angry dragon

sooner n houston

6/20/2006, 09:24 AM

But, if a gay couple showed up at your church and acknowledged that gayness was a sin, you'd treat them the same as you'd treat a hetero couple that you knew was fornicating?

Yes, in both cases they would be asked to either change, quit sinning, or quit attending my church!

1 Corinthians 5 (New International Version)

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]

frankensooner

6/20/2006, 09:25 AM

Adultery is defined as carnal connection between a married person and one unmarried, or between a married person and the spouse of another. It is seen to differ from fornication in that it supposes the marriage of one or both of the agents.

For the record, I'm not an adulterer. Now, if you are talking about fornication, yes, I participate in that.

And Jesus said in Matthew 5:31 31It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce' 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to commit adultery, and anyone who marries a woman so divorced commits adultery.

Uh?

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 09:27 AM

angry dragon

I'll take an angry dragon over a hot carl any day.

I think.

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 09:30 AM

Yes, in both cases they would be asked to either change, quit sinning, or quit attending my church!

1 Corinthians 5 (New International Version)

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]

And the process of doing such is outlined in Matthew 18. One problem with the church is that nearly nobody follows these guidelines, because it is difficult. This creates an environment where the church, because of cowardess or convenience, is tantamount to condoning the actions of those professing to be believers.

Scott D

6/20/2006, 09:34 AM

Yes, in both cases they would be asked to either change, quit sinning, or quit attending my church!

1 Corinthians 5 (New International Version)

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]

time to expel evangalists as well then my friend ;) actually that expels everyone from the church...damned greedy slandering drunk swindlers that humanity is ;)

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 09:42 AM

Once again I realize that my opinion is not fact. You think that my poo stinks and yours doesnt.

You of course, have nothing but respect for everybody's beliefs. I can tell.

I concede that my faith based opinion may be wrong to some and want to limit something, but you have yet to come to grips that your's/man's opinion mounts up to a steamin pile of dog crap. The bible is created by God through man, but that is based on Christian Faith, and not expected to be understood by all.

So: "I may be wrong, but I know you are"?

The Golden Rule? Where do you think that came from? The Bible? Now you want to base thought your thoughts on a prevelent verse in the Bible?

I think it's been around longer than that.

Give me one FACT that homosexuality is genetic/natural (not based on human knowledge) then I will bow down to your opinion.

What facts aren't based based on human knowledge? Besides, it's irrlevant whether being gay is natural or a chice because it's none of your business either way. I'm not asking you to bow down to my opinion. I'm explaining why I think your opinion is wrong, but I'm not the boss of you. But don't go voluntarily participating in a message board thread where not everybody agrees with you and then get all ****y about it.

Not once through our dialogue have you wavered in your fact and only have responses to my posts

So, I've been consistent and responded to what you wrote. I'm such a bastard.

Come up with your own thoughts and not parrot back my quotes with your responses.

In other words, ignore everything you say? No problem.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 09:55 AM

I don't see anyone parading around trying to get "special rights" for adultery either.

Adulterers and fornicators can get married, if that's what you mean by "special rights".

Gay's, and their supporters, are trying to get their "sin" categorized as "acceptable"

Only through the government, which is not in the "sin" business. How will your life be effected if gay marriage gets legalized?

Dammit, there I go quoting people again. When will I ever learn.

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:04 AM

religion is nothing more than a tool used by those in power to keep the populace in line. (but i am glad it gives comfort to those that need it)

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:07 AM

why does the christian god (or the abuse of his teachings) get to determine that legally homosexuality is wrong?

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 10:09 AM

why does the christian god (or the abuse of his teachings) get to determine that legally homosexuality is wrong?

Homosexuality is not illegal. Next.

mdklatt

6/20/2006, 10:10 AM

Homosexuality is not illegal.

Then why is homosexual marriage?

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:12 AM

if you want to "protect the sanctity of marriage"

then people should honor their spouse; not get divorced; etc.

don't support gay marriage? then don't marry someone of your own gender.

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 10:12 AM

Then why is homosexual marriage?

Because the majority of our country feels that it should be.

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:13 AM

And Jesus said in Matthew 5:31 31It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce' 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to commit adultery, and anyone who marries a woman so divorced commits adultery.

Uh?

no see...to be a true "christian" you are supposed to pick and choose only those verse that support your position while steadfastly ignoring all others.

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 10:14 AM

no see...to be a true "christian" you are supposed to pick and choose only those verse that support your position while steadfastly ignoring all others.

Whatever dude. You don't believe in God, and you will find out that was an unwise decision when you die.

As for now, this conversation has been pretty civil for the most part. Don't show up today and get it locked, mmkay?

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:16 AM

See that is the kicker...I do believe in God. Just because I don't prescribe to the arcane hate based hypocritical view you take doesn't mean i don't believe in a loving god.

and nothing i have said is lock worthy.

I believe you are free to feel/believe that homosexuality is a sin as it relates to your religion. However when people take the further step of saying "because of my religion, homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry" then I begin to have a problem with it.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 10:16 AM

Because the majority of our country feels that it should be.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Stanley1 again.

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:19 AM

the bible is a great book that provides support for many people...and for many that can be a great thing. Too often however you see it being used in a manipulative way to point out what they want it to say while ignoring instances of contradiction located in the very same book.

that is all my comment was reflecting thus the " " around the word christian.

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 10:21 AM

no see...to be a true "christian" you are supposed to pick and choose only those verse that support your position while steadfastly ignoring all others.

attacks like these diminish your credibility whenever you present an argument.

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 10:23 AM

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:26 AM

and i do apologize if my tone was read as aggessive as that wasn't my intent. sometimes i just speak to matter of factly.

does he affect my actions? not really i do thinks what i feel are right for the sake of doing the right thing. I try and do things relative to how I would want to be treated if I were similarly situated. I don't need the promise of a positive afterlife as motivation to do what i consider to be the right thing.

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 10:29 AM

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:30 AM

don't know...haven't died yet.

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 10:32 AM

does your God have an absolute truth?

and apology accepted.

frankensooner

6/20/2006, 10:34 AM

Because the majority of our country feels that it should be.

Does that make it right then? A majority of this country at one time felt that shopping on Sunday was a sin, and that slavery was ok.

Sin is sin, no matter how it is packaged, everyone sins. Once you have removed all sin from your own life, then just maybe, you will be fit to judge the sin of another. jmho.

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 10:36 AM

what happens when you die?

see you can tell me what you believe will happen, but the kicker is that nobody knows what will happen....they have to rely on faith.

as far as absolute truth? I am not sure i follow you. I am aware that there is a higher power and I believe through a very touching experience that he/she/it is comfortable with my feelings. I don't dwell on this higher power and I don't act out of fear of retribution.

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 10:39 AM

what happens when you die?

see you can tell me what you believe will happen, but the kicker is that nobody knows what will happen....they have to rely on faith.

i don't disagree

as far as absolute truth? I am not sure i follow you. I am aware that there is a higher power and I believe through a very touching experience that he/she/it is comfortable with my feelings. I don't dwell on this higher power and I don't act out of fear of retribution.

Let me ask it this way. Did your God create you? What is the purpose of your life?

C&CDean

6/20/2006, 10:39 AM

attacks like these diminish your credibility whenever you present an argument.

Why?

Although Hatfield and I are pretty much diametrically opposed on most issues, I have to agree with him here. For the most part, "christians" do pick and choose which Bible verses they feel like living by. That's why the whole organized religion thing is bunk.

Simply put, humans are not capable of interpreting the Bible and what it means. So, what do we do? That's right, pull out the verses that we like, and ****can the ones we don't. Then we join a church, and badmouth the other churches who've chosen their favorite verses to live by. We let some charismatic preacher bend and shape us to his will. We send him lots of $$. Or we do the whole Catholic thing and live our life performing meaningless ceremony that we've committed to rote. It's all so hypocritical and phoney.

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 10:41 AM

Once you have removed all sin from your own life, then just maybe, you will be fit to judge the sin of another. jmho.

I'm not judging anybody, just stating that I believe a certain lifestyle (being gay) is sinful based on my faith. You can't possibly be trying to tell me I'm not allowed to believe that?

frankensooner

6/20/2006, 10:56 AM

Matthew 7:1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention ot the plank in your own eye? how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye', when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye and they you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

I am not saying anything against you at all, or what or how you should believe. We should all be careful of how we judge others is my whole point. Sin is sin is sin.

Stanley1

6/20/2006, 10:58 AM

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 10:59 AM

Why?

Although Hatfield and I are pretty much diametrically opposed on most issues, I have to agree with him here. For the most part, "christians" do pick and choose which Bible verses they feel like living by. That's why the whole organized religion thing is bunk.

Simply put, humans are not capable of interpreting the Bible and what it means. So, what do we do? That's right, pull out the verses that we like, and ****can the ones we don't. Then we join a church, and badmouth the other churches who've chosen their favorite verses to live by. We let some charismatic preacher bend and shape us to his will. We send him lots of $$. Or we do the whole Catholic thing and live our life performing meaningless ceremony that we've committed to rote. It's all so hypocritical and phoney.

and I don't like being lumped into the "christians" and "we". The Bible which you say you believe constantly admonishes us to study it, to grow in our faith and to gather with other believers.

as far as pulling out verses, i agree with you. many "denominations" are based on this. I attend a church that teaches expositionally. This means they preach a book of the Bible at a time. You can't cherry pick verses that support your argument. You have to take each and every verse, just as it comes. You must look at the author, the audience, the context and how that verse stacks up with other verses in the Bible on the same topic. I agree, a preacher can take nearly any position on nearly any topic and cherry pick verses that seem to support his view.

I challenge you to support your attitude of "I can't figure out, so screw it" with scripture. Just because many, if not most of the "christians" out there have compromised their faith and twisted the Bible doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist. As followers of Christ, we are instructed to study the Bible, encourage one another, and grow in our faith.

I don't mean to discount your experiences. Believe, me I know many of the churches of which you speak. I just think that you are called to keep trying until you find a church that is doing it right.

Scott D

6/20/2006, 11:02 AM

and I don't like being lumped into the "christians" and "we". The Bible which you say you believe constantly admonishes us to study it, to grow in our faith and to gather with other believers.

as far as pulling out verses, i agree with you. many "denominations" are based on this. I attend a church that teaches expositionally. This means they preach a book of the Bible at a time. You can't cherry pick verses that support your argument. You have to take each and every verse, just as it comes. You must look at the author, the audience, the context and how that verse stacks up with other verses in the Bible on the same topic. I agree, a preacher can take nearly any position on nearly any topic and cherry pick verses that seem to support his view.

I challenge you to support your attitude of "I can't figure out, so screw it" with scripture. Just because many, if not most of the "christians" out there have compromised their faith and twisted the Bible doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist. As followers of Christ, we are instructed to study the Bible, encourage one another, and grow in our faith.

I don't mean to discount your experiences. Believe, me I know many of the churches of which you speak. I just think that you are called to keep trying until you find a church that is doing it right.

so what you are saying is that organized religion is a huge pyramid scheme run by a guy named Zornak who has a fortress under Jerusalem. :)

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 11:04 AM

so what you are saying is that organized religion is a huge pyramid scheme run by a guy named Zornak who has a fortress under Jerusalem. :)

FINALLY someone who gets it. Blessings to you. You will soon receive instructions on where to meet the mother ship.

Scott D

6/20/2006, 11:05 AM

actually, I now have to play the role of the Angel of Retribution and sacrifice you for the greater good of 'the secret' ;)

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 11:05 AM

my purpose is to see a million faces and to rock them all. ;)

C&CDean

6/20/2006, 11:06 AM

and I don't like being lumped into the "christians" and "we". The Bible which you say you believe constantly admonishes us to study it, to grow in our faith and to gather with other believers.

as far as pulling out verses, i agree with you. many "denominations" are based on this. I attend a church that teaches expositionally. This means they preach a book of the Bible at a time. You can't cherry pick verses that support your argument. You have to take each and every verse, just as it comes. You must look at the author, the audience, the context and how that verse stacks up with other verses in the Bible on the same topic. I agree, a preacher can take nearly any position on nearly any topic and cherry pick verses that seem to support his view.

I challenge you to support your attitude of "I can't figure out, so screw it" with scripture. Just because many, if not most of the "christians" out there have compromised their faith and twisted the Bible doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist. As followers of Christ, we are instructed to study the Bible, encourage one another, and grow in our faith.

I don't mean to discount your experiences. Believe, me I know many of the churches of which you speak. I just think that you are called to keep trying until you find a church that is doing it right.

dude, I have found the church that is doing it right. Only it's not in a building, and the only hypocrite there is me. And whoever said "I can't figure out so screw it?" I said "we're not capable of figuring it out." And we're not.

So, what do we do? Spend our entire life searching for Mr. Goodbar? Or do we go out and live, love, and do our very best to "do the right thing" and help one another?

No man knows sans one. And he lived 2000 years ago. I believe where I'm at "religiously" is a result of living the continuous "search." And I don't have any of the answers myself. All I know is that I feel my God's presence so much more when I'm talking to Him alone or just enjoying some of His handiwork.

Hatfield

6/20/2006, 11:07 AM

And again, what I'm doing is not "judging".

come on now be honest...by saying someone's lifestyle is a "sin" you are judging it so. I think the point of the passage from matthew is that it isn't your place to judge someone else's sin rather it is the job of God to be the judge. This seems to reflect back on the idea that religion is to be a personal endeavor. Focus on you and God will be the judge.

my 2 cents.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 11:29 AM

come on now be honest...by saying someone's lifestyle is a "sin" you are judging it so. I think the point of the passage from matthew is that it isn't your place to judge someone else's sin rather it is the job of God to be the judge. This seems to reflect back on the idea that religion is to be a personal endeavor. Focus on you and God will be the judge.

my 2 cents.

no he's not judging, the Bible says it's wrong and a sin. He is just going by the Bible. I sin all the time every day. I cuss, get mad, I drink beer. I know when I'm sinning. I'm not passing judgement on myself.

Judgement will come from God. He may weigh all the good a gay person has done vs the bad things he's done and say enter in my good and faithful servant.

or he my drop the hammer on them. Same goes for me. I don't know how any of us will be judged.

But calling a sin a sin is not sitting in judgement.

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 11:31 AM

Hamhock

6/20/2006, 11:36 AM

Judgement will come from God. He may weigh all the good a gay person has done vs the bad things he's done and say enter in my good and faithful servant.

where is this notion of God's judgment (weighing good vs. bad) found in the Bible?

We cannot grasp the judgment due us by a Holy God for the seemingly smallest sin. If you violate one law, you are guilty of violating the entire law. Either a person will face judgment as a vile sinner, having his sins previously atoned for, or a person will face judgment as a vile sinner, with the price of sins yet to be paid.

usmc-sooner

6/20/2006, 11:44 AM

where is this notion of God's judgment (weighing good vs. bad) found in the Bible?

We cannot grasp the judgment due us by a Holy God for the seemingly smallest sin. If you violate one law, you are guilty of violating the entire law. Either a person will face judgment as a vile sinner, having his sins previously atoned for, or a person will face judgment as a vile sinner, with the price of sins yet to be paid.

I wasn't try to quote the Bible just pointing out I don't know how God will judge anyone.

SCOUT

6/20/2006, 11:48 AM

Does that make it right then? A majority of this country at one time felt that shopping on Sunday was a sin, and that slavery was ok.

Sin is sin, no matter how it is packaged, everyone sins. Once you have removed all sin from your own life, then just maybe, you will be fit to judge the sin of another. jmho.

Which form of government, if any, do you propose? The populace elects officials to write laws for them based on what they believe is right. It is not a perfect system but it seems to work pretty well. If the general public has no voice in the writing of laws you are going to have a whole new system of government.

frankensooner

6/20/2006, 12:55 PM

The system we have is just fine, but the majority is oft not moral, quit twisting what I say or I will give you a purple nurple.

imjebus

6/20/2006, 02:26 PM