Anyone here catholic? [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

JohnnyMack

6/19/2006, 02:13 PM

Why?

After visiting Vatican City last September and the Cathedral of Notre Dame last week, I can't wrap my head around a religion that spends so much money on lavish furnishings when there is so much hunger and disease in the world.

Did you know they sell candels in the Notre Dame for 5 euros each? Yes, they sell them *inside* the cathedral. Classy, eh? Isn't there a Bible verse about Jesus throwing the merchants out of the temple? Wait, nevermind, I haven't read the Bible. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Is Notre Dame still under construction? I was there in Oct. and it was all tore up. Did you see the catacombs under it? Kinda cool. Notre Dame is an impressive structure though.

picasso

6/19/2006, 02:14 PM

Uh, before you start talking you might want to take a look at some Protestant churches that are being built that would certainly fit the description of "extravagant".

And most people are Catholic for the same reason people are Protestant, they were raised that way.

And while we are at it, I haven't seen a priest on TV, claiming that if people in the trailer park don't give him a million dollars he is going to die.
yeah but let's also realize how much money many churches give to the poor, needy, famished and others while you sit there, bitch and criticize.

LilSooner

6/19/2006, 02:14 PM

Yeah and the Baptists what about the Baptists!

I don't know what this has to do with anything but I just thought I would throw it out there.

IB4OU2

6/19/2006, 02:16 PM

Is Notre Dame still under construction? I was there in Oct. and it was all tore up. Did you see the catacombs under it? Kinda cool. Notre Dame is an impressive structure though.

What's the big deal about Touchdown Jesus?

crawfish

6/19/2006, 02:18 PM

And while we are at it, I haven't seen a priest on TV, claiming that if people in the trailer park don't give him a million dollars he is going to die.

It's because they're all too busy molesting altar boys in the confessional.

(just doing my part to train-wreck this thread. :D )

colleyvillesooner

6/19/2006, 02:18 PM

And they're off:

http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2004/06/06/1086535676_6427.jpg

soonerscuba

6/19/2006, 02:23 PM

yeah but let's also realize how much money many churches give to the poor, needy, famished and others while you sit there, bitch and criticize.

I have before, and I think that churches provide fill a void that a lot people (not a majority, but there is certainly a fair number) would otherwise fill with any manner of deviant behavior. But to renounce a religion due to structures built centuries ago while the primary alternative builds structures that are equally impressive and sticks coffee shops and bookstores in is highly hypocritical.

rebmus

6/19/2006, 02:26 PM

i've never understood how catholics lean very democrat (kennedys) yet they are pro life.

*they're that way in MS anyway... i attended catholic for 10 years... never converted.

picasso

6/19/2006, 02:31 PM

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 02:34 PM

Or gaudy church decorations.

tbl

6/19/2006, 02:36 PM

I have before, and I think that churches provide fill a void that a lot people (not a majority, but there is certainly a fair number) would otherwise fill with any manner of deviant behavior. But to renounce a religion due to structures built centuries ago while the primary alternative builds structures that are equally impressive and sticks coffee shops and bookstores in is highly hypocritical.

Very good points. Those mega-Churches make my stomach turn at how excessive they are. Prestonwood Baptist in Plano, TX was one of my customers, and they spent a ridiculous amout of money just to maintain the 1,000,000 square foot buidling... I mean, ridiculous.

My problems with Catholicism are purely Scripturally based upon the many false doctrines they continue to propagate that have no Biblical support whatsoever.

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/407643-can_of_worms.jpg

Hamhock

6/19/2006, 02:38 PM

Very good points. Those mega-Churches make my stomach turn at how excessive they are. Prestonwood Baptist in Plano, TX was one of my customers, and they spent a ridiculous amout of money just to maintain the 1,000,000 square foot buidling... I mean, ridiculous.

My problems with Catholicism are purely Scripturally based upon the many false doctrines they continue to propagate that have no Biblical support whatsoever.

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/407643-can_of_worms.jpg

what he said

picasso

6/19/2006, 02:38 PM

Or gaudy church decorations.
are you talking old world catholic stuff?

do you give money to charity?

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 02:39 PM

My problems with Catholicism are purely Scripturally based upon the many false doctrines they continue to propagate that have no Biblical support whatsoever.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

You're gonna need to get your own catholic-bashing thread. This one is strictly for pondering the vast amounts of money poured into building lavish churches, temples, etc. instead of carrying out their stated mission.

Unless their stated mission is to build lavish churches and call them "Bascillicas". I honestly don't know.

soonerscuba

6/19/2006, 02:40 PM

My problems with Catholicism are purely Scripturally based upon the many false doctrines they continue to propagate that have no Biblical support whatsoever.

This is where I don't start anything. Namely because I agree with you, but on the other hand I find many of the Protestant clergy incredibly annoying. Que petter-*** jokes.

Fugue

6/19/2006, 02:40 PM

In before the TL.

This is going to be spectacularly horrible.

indeed, when Sweetheart gets here...oh mama

Hamhock

6/19/2006, 02:41 PM

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

You're gonna need to get your own catholic-bashing thread. This one is strictly for pondering the vast amounts of money poured into building lavish churches, temples, etc. instead of carrying out their stated mission.

Unless their stated mission is to build lavish churches and call them "Bascillicas". I honestly don't know.

Much of the money is created by the catholic system of Works based salvation. Many a catholic has tried to buy his way into heaven with his last will and testament.

soonerscuba

6/19/2006, 02:42 PM

Much of the money is created by the catholic system of Works based salvation. Many a catholic has tried to buy his way into heaven with his last will and testament.

And many a trailer park fleeced by the preacher-man on da Teeee-Veeee. Tomato, tomato, IMO.

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 02:44 PM

Man, I forgot how much fun these threads are.

Woot!

Hamhock

6/19/2006, 02:44 PM

And many a trailer park fleeced by the preacher-man on da Teeee-Veeee. Tomato, tomato, IMO.

Couldn't agree more. And the preacher-man is about as faithful to the Bible as the catholic church.

Why did you say tomato twice?
;)

1stTimeCaller

6/19/2006, 02:45 PM

I pleasured myself while driving down HWY 81 last night.

FYI.

crawfish

6/19/2006, 02:47 PM

And many a trailer park fleeced by the preacher-man on da Teeee-Veeee. Tomato, tomato, IMO.

How many non-Catholics do the tv preachers represent? A tiny fraction, I suspect.

The Catholic church's methods are institutionalized. :)

Just throwing more fuel on the fire. :D

crawfish

6/19/2006, 02:48 PM

indeed, when Sweetheart gets here...oh mama

I'm trying to blow up one of the veins in her temple. :D

tbl

6/19/2006, 02:50 PM

Those TBN-type televangelists are a plague on the Christian community and can hardly be considered Protestants.

BTW, the only people the televangelists represent are themselves and their lust for money.

JohnnyMack

6/19/2006, 02:50 PM

I pleasured myself while driving down HWY 81 last night.

FYI.

I gave myself a hot carl in the bathtub.

BeetDigger

6/19/2006, 02:53 PM

That Prestonwood Baptist is so much bigger than my church. I am so ashamed.

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 02:55 PM

do you give money to charity?

I'm torn. I don't know whether to go with:

"Not to charities that squander it on buildings and art"

or

"I had no idea that my donations (or lack thereof) had such an influence on how the Catholic church spends its money."

Should this be a poll?

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 02:56 PM

Much of the money is created by the catholic system of Works based salvation. Many a catholic has tried to buy his way into heaven with his last will and testament.

I'm not so worried about why people give to the church as I am what the church then does with the money.

I guess building contractors need jobs too, eh?

crawfish

6/19/2006, 02:57 PM

I gave myself a hot carl in the bathtub.

I knew I was going to regret looking that up. :mad: :eek: :mad:

1stTimeCaller

6/19/2006, 02:59 PM

I knew I was going to regret looking in your windows. :mad: :eek: :mad:

:eek:

SoonerInKCMO

6/19/2006, 03:00 PM

I'm trying to blow up one of the veins in her temple. :D

Pssst... you should say something about Catholicism being a cult. :D

VeeJay

6/19/2006, 03:01 PM

SoonerBorn68

6/19/2006, 03:02 PM

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

You're gonna need to get your own catholic-bashing thread. This one is strictly for pondering the vast amounts of money poured into building lavish churches, temples, etc. instead of carrying out their stated mission.

Remember, these are the folks that sold half acre lots in heaven to the masses in the 17th century, so they got a lot of overhead. ;)

(Maybe this'll get the thread locked. :D)

crawfish

6/19/2006, 03:04 PM

I just bought six indulgences...so five of you are getting a real cussing-out in the near future. Bri, twice.

achiro

6/19/2006, 03:05 PM

I pleasured myself while driving down HWY 81 last night.

FYI.
So that was YOU! Damn dude, learn to drive one handed or pull to the side and get the **** out of the way!

SoonerInKCMO

6/19/2006, 03:07 PM

Pssst... you should say something about Catholicism being a cult. :D

Catholicism - Christianity or Cult? (http://www.homestead.com/davidgoliathministries/CathlocismChristianityorcult.html)

1stTimeCaller

6/19/2006, 03:09 PM

What's the deal with the mega churches broadcasting the sermons on local TV?

Who watches this stuff? I've been fortunate enough to be physically able to attend church when I felt inclined to go. And that hour - hour and a half is usually enough for me. Last thing I want to do is watch it on TV.

Shut-ins? People who don't want to bathe and get cleaned up? I dunno, just asking.

My granddad likes to watch some guy named James Merritt out of Georgia I think, instead of getting dressed up and going to Church. I have an aunt and uncle that watch the same guy. I guess they like his message better than the sermons at their local church. I like the guy and I'll watch it every once in a while as I don't attend any particular church.

soonerscuba

6/19/2006, 03:10 PM

Catholicism - Christianity or Cult? (http://www.homestead.com/davidgoliathministries/CathlocismChristianityorcult.html)

I am really intrigued by "A Woman Rides the Beast", now THAT is how you sell religion.

tbl

6/19/2006, 03:14 PM

There are other sources that are pretty informative...

http://www.contenderministries.org/catholicism.php
http://www.pro-gospel.org/

JohnnyMack

6/19/2006, 03:19 PM

Catholicism - Christianity or Cult? (http://www.homestead.com/davidgoliathministries/CathlocismChristianityorcult.html)

An evangelical Christian calling someone else's religion a "false religion". Heh. That's rich.

SoonerInKCMO

6/19/2006, 03:29 PM

An evangelical Christian calling someone else's religion a "false religion". Heh. That's rich.

The site did seem to be rather dripping with irony. ;)

LilSooner

6/19/2006, 03:35 PM

indeed, when Sweetheart gets here...oh mama

Ha Ha you have NO ideal. Not only is she Catholic, but she grew up Southern Baptist!

soonerscuba

6/19/2006, 03:49 PM

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/soonerscuba/moe.jpg

I was born a snakehandler, and I'll die a snakehandler.

Scott D

6/19/2006, 03:51 PM

I <3 you sweetheart....and this thread is so tame without handcrafted.

MamaMia

6/19/2006, 03:51 PM

The anti-Christ will probably pretend to be a protestant. They seem to be better at twisting things around. :D

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 03:59 PM

What's the deal with the mega churches broadcasting the sermons on local TV?

Who watches this stuff?

Everybody who's tithed all their gas money away so that the preacher can buy a vacation home in Vail.

[ducks]

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 04:00 PM

Everybody who's tithed all their gas money away so that the preacher can buy a vacation home in Vail.

[ducks]

Don't forget First Class airfare. Evangelism ain't cheap!

Hamhock

6/19/2006, 04:02 PM

Don't forget First Class airfare. Evangelism ain't cheap!

First Class airfare?? Don't you keep up? A while back, someone posted the stats for the Kenneth Copeland private airstrip.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 04:05 PM

First Class airfare?? Don't you keep up? A while back, someone posted the stats for the Kenneth Copeland private airstrip.

Heh. That was me. Dude's got a nice collection of warbirds, too.

Hamhock

6/19/2006, 04:08 PM

Heh. That was me. Dude's got a nice collection of warbirds, too.

P-Thetic.

SeattleOUstudent

6/19/2006, 04:11 PM

damn, what does it take to get a thread locked around here? People making fun of dead puppies?

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 04:12 PM

damn, what does it take to get a thread locked around here?

Pictures of tits.

SeattleOUstudent

6/19/2006, 04:13 PM

can we even say ti-tays?

JohnnyMack

6/19/2006, 04:13 PM

Pictures of tits.

I can take care of that if you'd like.

SeattleOUstudent

6/19/2006, 04:14 PM

I can take care of that if you'd like.

shallange!

OUAndy1807

6/19/2006, 04:17 PM

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38691000/jpg/_38691859_swaggart238.jpg

jk the sooner fan

6/19/2006, 04:27 PM

i dunno the answer, but if i had to venture a guess, i'm thinking the church probably felt the chances of millions all over the world flocking to a shanty shack were pretty low......they probably also felt that building an oppulent shrine to the almighty god would have a better chance of bringing the flock to jesus

that'd be my guess

colleyvillesooner

6/19/2006, 04:32 PM

Dude, get outta here with all that logic and rational thinkin' :D

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 04:33 PM

You've got a point. It got me there, didn't it?

OTOH, I would think that after all that work of getting me there they might do more than offer me a 5 euro tea-light candle. Oh well.

1stTimeCaller

6/19/2006, 04:34 PM

did you say anything to them about it? Do you really want to change it or just bitch about it?

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 04:37 PM

Change it? No, I simply want to make condescending remarks about it.

1stTimeCaller

6/19/2006, 04:38 PM

very well then. ;)

Jimminy Crimson

6/19/2006, 04:41 PM

Catholic here! :cool:

Stoop Dawg

6/19/2006, 04:44 PM

Oh, I forget the good bit.

There was this choir singing in there. All that monk-chanting singing type stuff. No problem, they were pretty good.

So then they go outside and line up for pictures. There are lots of tourists taking their picture. No problem.

Then this homeless guy jumps in and squats down next to the front row to be in the pictures! Big problem! (never mind that in socialist France there are supposedly no homeless people, right?)

He's obviously got mental problems. So, the director goes and just stands in front of him to block him from the pictures. The guy is ****ed, of course, because he wants to be in the pictures. So he starts making all these hand gestures like he's going to cut the director's head off or something. The director just stood there, smiling, ignoring him, while they took more pictures and sang more songs. We didn't stick around, but I'm sure they talked to him and tried to get him some help when they were finished.

RacerX

6/19/2006, 04:52 PM

Reverend Larry - I DO want your money, because God wants your money.

RacerX

6/19/2006, 04:57 PM

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28609

GottaHavePride

6/19/2006, 05:04 PM

Stoop, I think the big thing to consider is that places like Notre came were built 700 years ago. (Well, construction started in 1163, finished 1345 - only took them 180 years or so.) Back then the construction options were basically "mud hovel" or "giant stone building". If you wanted something to last, you had to go with option B. I'd say they made a pretty good investment so far.

And as to all the gold and jewel stuff inside (the "decorations" that aren't actually built-in to the church) if any of them are actually gold and jewels, they're probably also very old. And back then it was probably just as likely to have been made by some devout craftsman for free.

slickdawg

6/19/2006, 05:54 PM

Why?

After visiting Vatican City last September and the Cathedral of Notre Dame last week, I can't wrap my head around a religion that spends so much money on lavish furnishings when there is so much hunger and disease in the world.

Did you know they sell candels in the Notre Dame for 5 euros each? Yes, they sell them *inside* the cathedral. Classy, eh? Isn't there a Bible verse about Jesus throwing the merchants out of the temple? Wait, nevermind, I haven't read the Bible. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Excellent point.

Another? Other churches are rebuilding the gulf coast/NOLA, the catholics
are basically non-existant, despite a large number of them here.

GDC

6/19/2006, 07:02 PM

There's way too much money and power concentrated in too small a segment of society, and this includes churches, corporations, governments, and a few individuals.

jk the sooner fan

6/19/2006, 07:08 PM

There's way too much money and power concentrated in too small a segment of society, and this includes churches, corporations, governments, and a few individuals.

thats right Karl, we should have equal distribution of wealth among everybody....

GDC

6/19/2006, 07:12 PM

thats right Karl, we should have equal distribution of wealth among everybody....

Not necessarily equal but not skewed as much as it is. There's way too many people around the world and even in the US who are starving, dying of preventable diseases, and/or don't have adequate shelter.

jk the sooner fan

6/19/2006, 07:15 PM

so you'd advocate stripping some of the wealth from the top % and redistributing it?

GDC

6/19/2006, 07:16 PM

Absolutely, and by force if necessary.

jk the sooner fan

6/19/2006, 07:18 PM

wow, even though some of that is tongue in cheek, you're a closet socialist....

Sooner_Bob

6/19/2006, 07:21 PM

OUAndy1807

6/19/2006, 07:21 PM

it's too easy to pile on a religion and the mistakes they've made in the past when you reveal nothing about your beliefs and subscribe to a religion that has a fraction of the history.

GottaHavePride

6/19/2006, 07:29 PM

wow, even though some of that is tongue in cheek, you're a closet socialist....

Heh. It would be nice if that sort of thing happened voluntarily. You know, people deciding "I can live on 10 million a year, why don't I just give everything over that away." Then it isn't socialism, it's just people being generous.

Never gonna happen, though.

tbl

6/19/2006, 08:31 PM

it's too easy to pile on a religion and the mistakes they've made in the past when you reveal nothing about your beliefs and subscribe to a religion that has a fraction of the history.

Have any Mormons, Moonies, or Witnesses posted????

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:34 PM

it's too easy to pile on a religion and the mistakes they've made in the past when you...subscribe to a religion that has a fraction of the history.

Protestants are slowly but surely catching up in the corruption department, one televangelist at a time.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:35 PM

Have any Mormons, Moonies, or Witnesses posted????

What's a Moonie?

soonerscuba

6/19/2006, 08:37 PM

I also see that many of you have not been touched by his noodly appendage, you will answer for this.

tbl

6/19/2006, 08:37 PM

Sun Myung Moon followers. Kinda like Jonestown, but no Kool-Aid yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonies

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:38 PM

Sun Myung Moon followers. Kinda like Jonestown, but no Kool-Aid yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonies

Damn, is there any question Wikipedia can't answer?

EDIT: Besides this one, apparently.

Hamhock

6/19/2006, 08:49 PM

Protestants are slowly but surely catching up in the corruption department, one televangelist at a time.

While I don't disagree with you about the level of corruption among televangelists, it is important to note that the error of the catholic church are very much institutionalized, not perpetrated by renegade, spin-off, circus freaks like the televangelists.

mdklatt

6/19/2006, 08:53 PM

While I don't disagree with you about the level of corruption among televangelists, it is important to note that the error of the catholic church are very much institutionalized, not perpetrated by renegade, spin-off, circus freaks like the televangelists.

Give it time, give it time.

Fugue

6/20/2006, 08:41 AM

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28609

Pat's post about the deer in this thread was top shelf, bwahahahaha.

crawfish

6/20/2006, 09:08 AM

Protestants are slowly but surely catching up in the corruption department, one televangelist at a time.

It's going to be impossible to match without a central controlling authority. That's a big reason I believe in the autonomy of the local church - corrupt people are limited in their influence.

Of course, that's the same reason I support state's rights... :)

47straight

6/26/2006, 01:40 PM

StoopDawg, I look forward to your posts railing against the excessive spending of other great monuments of architecture and art: Lincoln Memorial, Vietnam Vet's memorial, eiffel tower, big ben, the Barry Switzer Center, the OKC bombing memorial, the great pyramids, statue of liberty, pottery barn/crate and barrel, and the world's biggest ball of twine.

Your argument is an argument against spending anything on non-practical stuff. Considering the amount of enjoyment/inspiration/meeting space over 700 years of such a facility as a basilica, I have to say that's a pretty good return on investment. I mean, it's no Dollywood, but still.

IronSooner

6/26/2006, 02:34 PM

Medieval cathedrals were about inspiring awe and the feeling of God's presence in the normal folk as anything. The point was to walk in, feel dwarfed, and hence in the presence of something greater. IMO they still accomplish this 800 later. Building them pioneered architecture and engineering, and they've served as meeting places for ages.

My biggest beef is with stuff that's completely and blatantly pointless, like the giant cross on I-35. There's also one near Amarillo and another around Effingham, IL. Remind me again how those help anything or anyone.

GDC

6/26/2006, 02:36 PM

Heh. It would be nice if that sort of thing happened voluntarily. You know, people deciding "I can live on 10 million a year, why don't I just give everything over that away." Then it isn't socialism, it's just people being generous.

Never gonna happen, though.

That's what Buffett's doing, guess he's a socialist too.

Stanley1

6/26/2006, 02:41 PM

Not sure this helps, but Chick and I sat through part of a Catholic service in Messico. Was kind of interesting, though, I couldn't understand much.

hurricane'bone

6/26/2006, 02:52 PM

There's way too much money and power concentrated in too small a segment of society, and this includes churches, corporations, governments, and a few individuals.

Well, it's a well known fact, Sunny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentaveret, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.

So who's in this Pentaveret?

The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eye! And that smug look on his face, "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"

OklahomaTuba

6/26/2006, 02:57 PM

Why shouldn't man build great things in honor to our Lord and Savior? I don't know if Jesus would have taught against that or not. The selling of things he would have, and thats why I cannot stand the televangelists asking for money. Those people are a disgrace and sicken me.

I challenge the Christian bashers on this board who think building grand Churches is so hypocritical to name one other group of people that gives more time, money or effort and does more generous deeds for mankind in its history than Christianity. The easy answer is, there isn't another group of people.

47straight

6/26/2006, 03:20 PM

I challenge the Christian bashers on this board who think building grand Churches is so hypocritical to name one other group of people that gives more time, money or effort and does more generous deeds for mankind in its history than Christianity. The easy answer is, there isn't another group of people.

The Democratic Party? :texan: ;)

opksooner

6/26/2006, 03:24 PM

......name one other group of people that gives more time, money or effort and does more generous deeds for mankind in its history than Christianity. The easy answer is, there isn't another group of people.

from philanthropyroundtable.org

A number of Americans have been blessed with an ability to create wealth. All Americans are blessed that most of those wealth-creators believe they have a duty to give back. Andrew Carnegie famously declared, "The man who dies rich dies disgraced." John D. Rockefeller concurred, "The good Lord gave me the money, and how could I withhold it?" In other words, both the creation of wealth and its use are moral endeavors governed by moral rules-much like the civil religious structures that ultimately govern our political order.

In America, that obligation is religious-a duty to God or higher being-and a fundamental tenet of our Judeo-Christian beliefs. The obligation is also civic: a duty to the community, a norm of being a good citizen. These beliefs are themselves embedded in a rich Judeo-Christian tradition of giving. Jewish law put forward the need to tithe and take care of those in need, especially if one could help them become self-reliant. Charity was considered righteousness, an obligation. These tenets became established in Christian thought as well, and took new life in American civic culture.

Because American principles derive from a Judeo-Christian heritage, American society has provided opportunities for Jews to become exceptional examples of American exceptionalism. They have prospered in a free and open society, beneficiaries of protection from religious persecution and a great success story of American meritocracy. They have responded as one might expect to a society that has been so nurturing by giving back at levels that far exceed the 6 million (2.5 percent) of the American population that Jews compose. Thankful to both God and country, Jews have become a cornerstone of American philanthropy, a case study of a system that successfully builds upon itself. When people ask why the Jewish people in America are such good philanthropists, the answer is simple. While building on Jewish traditions of giving, they have wholeheartedly embraced American values. They have become exceptional Americans.

Just sayin'................

Stoop Dawg

6/26/2006, 03:42 PM

Your argument is an argument against spending anything on non-practical stuff.

If that's what you got out of my post, then I didn't word it very well.

Considering the amount of enjoyment/inspiration/meeting space over 700 years of such a facility as a basilica, I have to say that's a pretty good return on investment.

That, of course, is a matter of opinion.

Stoop Dawg

6/26/2006, 03:44 PM

Medieval cathedrals were about inspiring awe and the feeling of God's presence in the normal folk as anything.

Let me re-word that to more accurately reflect what the guides say:

Medieval cathedrals were about inspiring awe and the feeling of the King's power in the normal folk as anything.

Stoop Dawg

6/26/2006, 03:47 PM

IronSooner

6/26/2006, 03:54 PM

Medieval cathedrals were about inspiring awe and the feeling of the King's power in the normal folk as anything.

I'd still disagree with that. The building of a cathedral outlasted several monarchs and while one might recall who began it, I doubt many inside thought hard about this, or about who was in power at that time. However, you did have instances such as Louis XIV and XVI who tried to feign piety by erecting statues of themselves at the altar of Notre Dame.

IronSooner

6/26/2006, 03:55 PM

I'm surprised nobody's really brought up the popes and some of their exploits over the past millenium.

47straight

6/26/2006, 04:06 PM

That, of course, is a matter of opinion.

So you'll be okay with it at year 1000? 1500 years? What level of ROI do we require to meet your exacting standards, oh great utilitarian?

I still don't see your voiced oppposition to the wastes of money I listed. I have to then assume that there's a double standard against the Catholic Church.

Stoop Dawg

6/26/2006, 04:09 PM

I'd still disagree with that. The building of a cathedral outlasted several monarchs and while one might recall who began it, I doubt many inside thought hard about this, or about who was in power at that time.

Who knows the intent of the builder? Certainly not I. It does seem rather dubious, however.

Stoop Dawg

6/26/2006, 04:13 PM

So you'll be okay with it at year 1000? 1500 years? What level of ROI do we require to meet your exacting standards, oh great utilitarian?

No.

I still don't see your voiced oppposition to the wastes of money I listed. I have to then assume that there's a double standard against the Catholic Church.

If that's what you got out of my post, then I didn't word it very well.

No double-standard. It's not the "wasting" of money that is hypocritical.

47straight

6/26/2006, 04:14 PM

Ever noticed the huge disparity in wealth between the Saints and the Priests?

Just sayin....

What about all the priests who are saints? What about all the priests who take vows of poverty?

Um, no I hadn't. And before you claim to know a guy who knows a guy who saw a priest driving a lexus, let's not play the credential game of who knows more examples, because I never met a priest who wasn't on a vow of poverty till I was grown. How about finding out how much priests actually make, how much they work for that salary, and how much they actually give back (yes, monetarily) before spreading anymore non-truths? (I know that's more than expected than the usual S.O. post... :) )

47straight

6/26/2006, 04:22 PM

No double-standard. It's not the "wasting" of money that is hypocritical.

So - apparently it is not possible to glorify God by both creating masterpieces of buildings for generations of worshippers AND by feeding and healing the masses? I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive.

If you're making an issue about the candle sale - are you talking about a gift stand in the church, or a donation thing next to candles that you can light?

Stoop Dawg

6/26/2006, 04:47 PM

So - apparently it is not possible to glorify God by both creating masterpieces of buildings for generations of worshippers AND by feeding and healing the masses? I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive.

Once all of the hungry have been fed and everyone has all of the medications they need, you'll have a point. As far as I know, that isn't the case yet.

So no, it's not possible to preach about helping others while accumulating massive amounts of wealth for yourself. I'm pretty sure God doesn't need massive temples built by man in order to be glorified, but I guess I could be wrong about that. My cynical brain tends to think the Pope just wants a nice place in which to live, but it could be that him being rich while the rest of the world struggles is exactly what God intended.

If you're making an issue about the candle sale - are you talking about a gift stand in the church, or a donation thing next to candles that you can light?

Candles that you light while on the premises are .50 cents (it's NOT posted as a donation, but it IS on the honor system). Candles that you take home as a souvenier are 5 euros. Those are definitely NOT a donation and are for sale by a person with a cash register.

In the Bible at my house, Jesus threw the merchants out of the temple. You can try to defend them if you want, but do so at your own peril! (sorry, had to steal that line from the typical Christian response to anyone who dares disobey the Bible)

Stoop Dawg

6/26/2006, 04:48 PM

Um, no I hadn't. And before you claim to know a guy who knows a guy who saw a priest driving a lexus, let's not play the credential game of who knows more examples, because I never met a priest who wasn't on a vow of poverty till I was grown. How about finding out how much priests actually make, how much they work for that salary, and how much they actually give back (yes, monetarily) before spreading anymore non-truths? (I know that's more than expected than the usual S.O. post... :) )

The Pope.

The end.

47straight

6/26/2006, 05:18 PM

The Pope.

The end.

Pope doesn't own hardly anything. No salary to speak of either. When JP2 died, all he had to will away was his personal papers. He also on the clock every waking moment dedicated to his job till he died in his 80s. Ever seen pictures of the papal apartment (i.e. not house) where he actually lived? Not lavish, unless having 1 bedroom apartment with a side chapel is lavish.

The notion that the money is being drained away at the top by "Italian princes" was en vogue with the anti-catholicism of the 1800s. Roll with the new - The pope wants people to die of AIDS.

47straight

6/26/2006, 05:38 PM

Once all of the hungry have been fed and everyone has all of the medications they need, you'll have a point. As far as I know, that isn't the case yet. So no, it's not possible to preach about helping others while accumulating massive amounts of wealth for yourself.

What purpose do the churches and furnishings you saw have for "wealth"? The public can come and enjoy and worship freely. The things you saw are given to the people. It isn't quite the same as Microsoft stock.

I'm pretty sure God doesn't need massive temples built by man in order to be glorified, but I guess I could be wrong about that.

Ever think that the massive temples are for the people? If they are just for the kings, why do they put so many seats in there?

My cynical brain tends to think the Pope just wants a nice place in which to live, but it could be that him being rich while the rest of the world struggles is exactly what God intended.

Yes, your posts in this thread have shown that you do tend to assume the worst about other people. That pretty much closes the door to discussion if you just assume that about people you disagree with, and is a rough way of going through life. BTW - I was unaware that the Pope lived in Notre Dame cathedral, or in Paris at all.

Candles that you light while on the premises are .50 cents (it's NOT posted as a donation, but it IS on the honor system). Candles that you take home as a souvenier are 5 euros. Those are definitely NOT a donation and are for sale by a person with a cash register.In the Bible at my house, Jesus threw the merchants out of the temple. You can try to defend them if you want, but do so at your own peril! [quote]

How is buying a souveneir to keep the lights on not pretty much the same as a donation to help keep the lights on? A register inside is pretty tacky. However, it's far short of the money changers in the temple, which exploited both the pilgrims and the temple, was required to be able to buy anything to offer as atonement (one of the main points of going to the temple), and generally just leached off the whole faithful. Here, you've got the church trying to keep the lights on, people want (but don't have to have) a candle, the money goes to help preserve the facility, etc.

[quote](sorry, had to steal that line from the typical Christian response to anyone who dares disobey the Bible)

Trump cards are always fun. :P

LoyalFan

6/26/2006, 05:45 PM

Well, I DID graduate from a Catholic University, just 'cause they offered this Lutheran boy a full trumpet schollie and they had a renowned ROTC program.
However, it's threads such as this that cement my belief that I made the right choice in recently joining an obscure religious sect that worships cholesterol and believes that when one dies in good standing one's soul goes to a full-service whorehouse in Poughkeepsie.
Just to hedge my bets, though, I'm gonna spend the night at a Vatican Inn Express.

LoyalFanatic

StoopTroup

6/26/2006, 05:53 PM

thats right Karl, we should have equal distribution of wealth among everybody....
We could start here...

The 50 largest U.S. foundations

Name (state) Assets As of fiscal year ended

1 Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (WA) $28,798,609,188 12/31/2004

2 The Ford Foundation (NY) 11,570,213,000 9/30/2005

3 J. Paul Getty Trust (CA) 9,642,414,092 6/30/2004

4 The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (NJ) 8,991,086,132 12/31/2004

5 Lilly Endowment Inc. (IN) 8,585,049,346 12/31/2004

6 W. K. Kellogg Foundation (MI) 7,298,383,532 8/31/2005

7 The William and Flora Hewlett Foundation (CA) 6,525,004,389 12/31/2004

8 The David and Lucile Packard Foundation (CA) 5,328,293,452 12/31/2004

9 The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation (NY) 5,301,066,615 12/31/2004

10 Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation (CA) 5,042,534,007 12/31/2004

11 John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation (IL) 5,023,223,000 12/31/2004

12 The California Endowment (CA) 3,729,571,524 2/28/2005

13 The Starr Foundation (NY) 3,546,599,566 12/31/2004

14 The Annie E. Casey Foundation (MD) 3,295,299,665 12/31/2004

15 The Rockefeller Foundation (NY) 3,237,183,825 12/31/2004

16 The Kresge Foundation (MI) 2,752,257,750 12/31/2004

17 The Annenberg Foundation (PA) 2,603,501,021 6/30/2005

18 The Duke Endowment (NC) 2,542,619,779 12/31/2004

19 Charles Stewart Mott Foundation (MI) 2,527,897,211 12/31/2004

20 Carnegie Corporation of New York (NY) 2,244,208,247 9/30/2005

21 Casey Family Programs (WA) 2,184,894,330 12/31/2004

22 The McKnight Foundation (MN) 2,073,754,860 12/31/2004

23 Robert W. Woodruff Foundation, Inc. (GA) 2,050,757,772 12/31/2004

24 The Harry and Jeanette Weinberg Foundation, Inc. (MD) 2,027,561,526 2/28/2005

25 John S. and James L. Knight Foundation (FL) 1,939,340,905 12/31/2004

26 The New York Community Trust (NY) 1,810,817,540 12/31/2004

27 Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation (MO) 1,774,756,631 6/30/2004

28 Richard King Mellon Foundation (PA) 1,742,201,835 12/31/2004

29 Doris Duke Charitable Foundation (NY) 1,693,460,630 12/31/2004

30 The Cleveland Foundation (OH) 1,632,621,913 12/31/2004

31 The James Irvine Foundation (CA) 1,541,924,918 12/31/2004

32 Alfred P. Sloan Foundation (NY) 1,505,602,994 12/31/2004

33 Houston Endowment Inc. (TX) 1,461,271,723 12/31/2004

34 The Wallace Foundation (NY) 1,364,654,036 12/31/2004

35 The Chicago Community Trust (IL) 1,324,379,128 9/30/2004

36 The Brown Foundation, Inc. (TX) 1,314,216,005 6/30/2005

37 W. M. Keck Foundation (CA) 1,307,546,774 12/31/2004

38 Tulsa Community Foundation (OK) 1,255,966,405 12/31/2004

39 Donald W. Reynolds Foundation (NV) 1,248,736,254 12/31/2004

40 Lumina Foundation for Education, Inc. (IN) 1,196,062,690 12/31/2004

41 The William Penn Foundation (PA) 1,185,344,692 12/31/2004

42 The Michael and Susan Dell Foundation (TX) 1,178,008,895 12/31/2004

43 The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, Inc. (OK) 1,161,500,185 12/31/2004

44 Marin Community Foundation (CA) 1,153,585,937 6/30/2004

45 Walton Family Foundation, Inc. (AR) 1,129,770,302 12/31/2004

46 The Freeman Foundation (NY) 1,105,283,491 12/31/2004

47 The California Wellness Foundation (CA) 1,095,660,990 12/31/2004

48 The Moody Foundation (TX) 1,056,384,643 12/31/2004

49 Daniels Fund (CO) 1,040,647,749 12/31/2004

50 Kimbell Art Foundation (TX) 1,019,561,229 12/31/2003

Source: Foundation Center