Cindy Sheehan and patriotism...

[OklahomaTuba]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/06/17/n061732A.jpg

Maybe this is what the Dixie Chics mean about being patriotic?


FORT ERIE, Ont. (AP) - A group of American military deserters publicly embraced their new lives in Canada on Saturday with the support of "peace mom" Cindy Sheehan, who said she wished the son she lost in Iraq was among them.

"I begged him not to go to Iraq," the anti-war activist said through tears at a rally in support of the former soldiers, who wore black T-shirts emblazoned with "AWOL." "And I wish he was standing up here with these people because he didn't want to go."

Sheehan was making her second visit to Canada in support of sanctuary for those fleeing the U.S. military.http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/06/17/1638760-ap.html

[Okla-homey]

I generally oppose capital punishment, but in these cowards' case, I could support firing squads. Especially if amputee vets got to be on the firing details.

[Flagstaffsooner]

I generally oppose capital punishment, but in these cowards' case, I could support firing squads. Especially if amputee vets got to be on the firing details.Put Ms Cindy in there to absorb some lead as well.

[BeetDigger]

So, they sign up to join the military, but when they ACTULLY have to go fight, then they run.

I guess they signed up the the one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer plan.

Whoever the next President is, I hope that he doesn't follow the Carter plan and pardon them. Let them stay in Canada forever.

[NYSooner1355]

So, they sign up to join the military, but when they ACTULLY have to go fight, then they run.

I guess they signed up the the one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer plan.


You are an ignorant FUKK, over 25% of fatalities/casualties in Iraq are being borne by Reservists/Guardsman...so before you write stupid dribble realize what you are saying/implying ***-hole

[Okla-homey]

You are an ignorant FUKK, over 25% of fatalities/casualties in Iraq are being borne by Reservists/Guardsman...so before you write stupid dribble realize what you are saying/implying ***-hole

Lighten up Francis. ;)

I bet he didn't mean nothing by it. We all know some folks join the regulars and the reserve components thinking they'll never have to deploy overseas. I have a dumarse cousin who joined the Navy then went AWOL when he found out he was being assigned to a ship after boot camp and tech training.:eek:

Anyhoo, these guys who bailed for Canada are wussies and oxygen wasters. They don't deserve to live IMHO. The good news is while they live, they'll be contaminating the Canadian gene pool and not "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave."

[Jimminy Crimson]

Is that ho not dead yet? :mad:

[usmc-sooner]

You are an ignorant FUKK, over 25% of fatalities/casualties in Iraq are being borne by Reservists/Guardsman...so before you write stupid dribble realize what you are saying/implying ***-hole


chill
I'm sure he realizes the sacrifices our reserves/guard have made, I don't think he meant it, they way you took it.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

You are an ignorant FUKK, over 25% of fatalities/casualties in Iraq are being borne by Reservists/Guardsman...so before you write stupid dribble realize what you are saying/implying ***-holeYou're missing his point. Whether active service, Reserve or Guard, anyone with an IQ approaching average knows that if you are in the military, you CAN BE required to fight our nation's wars...very hazardous duty, indeed.

[Okla-homey]

Is that ho not dead yet? :mad:

No, but I bet her brave son is spinning in his grave like an M-1A1 tank crankshaft at full throttle.

[NYSooner1355]

You're missing his point. Whether active service, Reserve or Guard, anyone with an IQ approaching average knows that if you are in the military, you CAN BE required to fight our nation's wars...very hazardous duty, indeed.

I didn't miss his point, and yes maybe I am being too sensitive, but his point was basically that todays reservists/guardsman are the same as the Vietnam-era ones that used favors to get in to get out of serving in Vietnam (and yes I know reservists/guardsman served there - but nowhere to the extent they are serving in this war and the first gulf war)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I didn't miss his point, and yes maybe I am being too sensitive, but his point was basically that todays reservists/guardsman are the same as the Vietnam-era ones that used favors to get in to get out of serving in Vietnam (and yes I know reservists/guardsman served there - but nowhere to the extent they are serving in this war and the first gulf war)Without double checking, I thought his point was that everyone who's in the military in any capacity has volunteered to be potentially placed in harm's way. Anyway, that's my point... OK, I looked up the Beet Digger post you commented on. I don't necessarily think he was comparing Iraq and Vietnam-just a comment on the boneheads who go AWOL today.

[85Sooner]

I didn't miss his point, and yes maybe I am being too sensitive, but his point was basically that todays reservists/guardsman are the same as the Vietnam-era ones that used favors to get in to get out of serving in Vietnam (and yes I know reservists/guardsman served there - but nowhere to the extent they are serving in this war and the first gulf war)

So let me get this straight. The ones who served during vietnam are not as brave as the ones who searve now, is that your point?

and by favors, do you mean that all the men who decided to go to college to avoid the draft? Or are you speaking politically.

[NYSooner1355]

So let me get this straight. The ones who served during vietnam are not as brave as the ones who searve now, is that your point?

yes, to the extent that we are talking about ones that got deferments in the guard to avoid serving over there - in fact there is a guy in my unit now that basically did that, and has stated so (which disgusted me) and has stated recently that if we get activated he will pack it in (he has his 20 years)...so yes those that join just to get a pension and not want to serve when expected to serve are not as brave as those that have gone when told to go

[NYSooner1355]

Without double checking, I thought his point was that everyone who's in the military in any capacity has volunteered to be potentially placed in harm's way. Any way, that's my point.

re-read his second sentence...he said maybe they signed up for one weekend a month/two weeks in summer plan - that historically is the knock on reservists...so automatically the deserters in Tuba's original post are reservists in his (BeetDigger) mind, because only reservists would desert when activated to fight a war

edit: I took out a sentence that was unnecessary, I apologize Favor

[Vaevictis]

Desertion is cowardice. If you're going to refuse to go, at least have the sack to face the court martial.

Even if the reason you refuse to go is because you're a coward, there is, imo, some redeeming factor in taking the consequences like a man, instead of turning tail and running.

[Okla-homey]

To recap: Anyone who puts his right hand up and signs the enlistment paperwork is saying "Here I Am, Send Me."

Regular or Reserve. Doesn't make a darn bit of difference to me now, and it didn't when I was in.

Sure, there are scammers. Always have been, always will be. Google "bounty jumpers" during the Civil War: guys signed up, got their cash bonus and split. Then, did it again in a different town. Some guys did it a couple dozen times.

[Okla-homey]

Desertion is cowardice. If you're going to refuse to go, at least have the sack to face the court martial. dang straight!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

re-read his second sentence, maybe the comprehension you sorely lack will set in...he said maybe they signed up for one weekend a month/two weeks in summer plan - that historically is the knock on reservists...so automatically the deserters in Tuba's original post are reservists in his (BeetDigger) mind, because only reservists would desert when activated to fight a warSee my last (edited) post above. I think we're all in agreement that some people are weenies about their military service committment, and that some, esp. during Vietnam, endeavored to do legal things, including pulling strings, in order to not have to go fight in Vietnam. you don't have to be so darn hostile.(esp. since we are all probably on the same page, though maybe reading different paragraphs)

[Stanley1]

You are an ignorant FUKK, over 25% of fatalities/casualties in Iraq are being borne by Reservists/Guardsman...so before you write stupid dribble realize what you are saying/implying ***-hole

Way to miss the point.

[Okla-homey]

I'm a wuss in a way. I joined the AF b/c I wanted to fly and to sleep in a bed in a real building with electricity and air conditioning.

At one point, my career took a bizarro turn and I ended up as an ALO TWICE with two Army infantry divisions and had to sleep in mud with them.:confused:

I didn't run away though, although the thought crossed my mind a time or two.:D

[Vaevictis]

I'm a wuss in a way. I joined the AF b/c I wanted to fly and to sleep in a bed in a real building with electricity and air conditioning.

Heh. When my cousin enlisted a few years ago, he decided he wanted to go the ranger route and signed up for the infantry.

My grandfather -- who was Army Air Corps in WWII -- told him before he signed, "You do not want to be in the Army. You want to be in the AF. You can get shot at in both, if that's what you really want, but you're less likely to have to sleep in the mud and get trench foot in the AF."

My cousin didn't listen to him, and two years later when his enlistment was up, he admitted that he wished he had. :)

(they ended up assigning him in Kosovo, and yeah, he slept in the mud -- note that when I say "a few years ago", I'm using the words loosely -- he was out in like 2001ish/2002ish.)

[NYSooner1355]

Way to miss the point.

again, catch up - I didn't miss Tuba's point...but I am attacking a statement ignorantly made by BeetDigger

Homey is correct in that I'm sure we all agree on the desertion consequences the idiots in the original post should suffer

[Stanley1]

again, catch up - I didn't miss Tuba's point...but I am attacking a statement ignorantly made by BeetDigger

Homey is correct in that I'm sure we all agree on the desertion consequences the idiots in the original post should suffer

I don't think he meant they were all reservists, even though he made the "one weekend a month" comment.

[Okla-homey]

Heh. When my cousin enlisted a few years ago, he decided he wanted to go the ranger route and signed up for the infantry.

My grandfather -- who was Army Air Corps in WWII -- told him before he signed, "You do not want to be in the Army. You want to be in the AF. You can get shot at in both, if that's what you really want, but you're less likely to have to sleep in the mud and get trench foot in the AF."

My cousin didn't listen to him, and two years later when his enlistment was up, he admitted that he wished he had. :)

(they ended up assigning him in Kosovo, and yeah, he slept in the mud)

May God bless the infantry. Somebody has got to walk the point and kick down the doors. I'm sure glad we got those blue rope wearin' bastages. God must love them because He sure brings a lot of them home to hang with Him.

[Vaevictis]

Heh, yeah. Essentially all of the military exists to support the infantry.

I still maintain that it takes a bout of insanity (mild or otherwise, temporary or otherwise) to actually want to be infantry though :)

[Scott D]

*shrug* I'm pretty much going to stay out of this one...however, some of them DID go over there, and were affected in enough of a manner that they refused to go back. I saw comments from one guy who deserted when he was sent back stateside for leave that specifically said that it was because of things he saw in Iraq that he refused to go back.

That being said, Sheehan is an idiot, and clearly our Armed Forces don't have good enough psych profiles or evaluations to weed out 'flakes'.

[Okla-homey]

*shrug* I'm pretty much going to stay out of this one...however, some of them DID go over there, and were affected in enough of a manner that they refused to go back. I saw comments from one guy who deserted when he was sent back stateside for leave that specifically said that it was because of things he saw in Iraq that he refused to go back.

That being said, Sheehan is an idiot, and clearly our Armed Forces don't have good enough psych profiles or evaluations to weed out 'flakes'.

Here's the problem I have with that Scott. The guys who are profoundly mentally affected by what they see or do in service must present themselves for evaluation by qualified mental health professionals.

If they're not making it up, they'll get their discharge and be allowed to leave honorably. If diagnosed with a mental or emotional disorder of some kind which is deemed service-related, they'll be entitled to continued care on Uncle Sam. The point is, you can't just "bug out." Otherwise, as I'm sure you know, its just too easy to say that sort of stuff as a hedge.

[Scott D]

Here's the problem I have with that Scott. The guys who are profoundly mentally affected by what they see or do in service must present themselves for evaluation by qualified mental health professionals.

If they're not making it up, they'll get their discharge and be allowed leave honorably. If diagnosed with a mental or emotional disorder of some kind which is deemed service-related, they'll be entitled to continued care on Uncle Sam. The point is, you can't just "bug out." Otherwise, as i'm sure you know, its too easy to say that sort of stuff as a hedge.

What I'm saying is that these individuals should be getting that evaluation before they are allowed to come home on leave...it should be as thorough as possible. The qualified mental health guys should be reviewed for irregularities as well.

What I don't like about these articles about that 'rally' are the attempts of creating parallels between Vietnam era draft dodgers, and modern era deserters. But then again, unless there is a specific subject that a reporter is an expert on and they stick only to that subject, they go so far with speculation and conjecture that it gets rididculous.

[lefty]

If they're not making it up, they'll get their discharge and be allowed to leave honorably. If diagnosed with a mental or emotional disorder of some kind which is deemed service-related, they'll be entitled to continued care on Uncle Sam. The point is, you can't just "bug out." Otherwise, as I'm sure you know, its just too easy to say that sort of stuff as a hedge.

Reminds me of a story. I was in AIT (infantry) at Fort Polk in 1970. A guy in our company always talked about how much he wanted to go to Nam and kill Gooks. This was his conversation all day, everyday. The CO began to think he was mentally unstable. He was finally Sec'd 8 with a medical discharge. We always (I still do) think it was a scam. I think the military does a better job now with mental health than they did then.

[bri]

And yet that guy Klinger wore dresses for all those years and couldn't get sent home. Poor bastard. :D

And I'm not really going to weigh in on this one, due to the fact that Cindy Sheehan represents the extremism in the "liberal" ranks that I tire of having to defend, and all these guys she's hugging are f*ckin' cowards, liars and traitors. Now, having said all that, what exactly has Sheehan done to deserve death by firing squad other than disagree with some of you?

[lefty]

And yet that guy Klinger wore dresses for all those years and couldn't get sent home. Poor bastard. :D

And I'm not really going to weigh in on this one, due to the fact that Cindy Sheehan represents the extremism in the "liberal" ranks that I tire of having to defend, and all these guys she's hugging are f*ckin' cowards, liars and traitors. Now, having said all that, what exactly has Sheehan done to deserve death by firing squad other than disagree with some of you?

Exactly. What does "patriotism" mean.

Is it "America, love it or leave it," or

"America, live up to the principles upon which you were founded."

Just asking.

[SoonerBorn68]

Ya know, even if Sheehan still got the media coverage, if we'd just totally ignored her maybe she'd just fade away.

I'm really not thinking she should be lined up against the wall, but a good punch in the mouth would do her wonders.

[lefty]

Ya know, even if Sheehan still got the media coverage, if we'd just totally ignored her maybe she'd just fade away.

I'm really not thinking she should be lined up against the wall, but a good punch in the mouth would do her wonders.

See: "Ann Coulter"

[usmc-sooner]

Way to miss the point.

freakin reservist :D

[SoonerBorn68]

See: "Ann Coulter"

Works for me, but why bring in person from the right? Action, reaction. This thread is about the way Cindy Sheehan has decided to support people who have gone awol, ie criminals, to try to strengthen her position about being anti war. She is just a bitter woman who has lost touch with sanity after the loss of her son. She just needs a haymaker wake up call.

[lefty]

Works for me, but why bring in person from the right? Action, reaction. This thread is about the way Cindy Sheehan has decided to support people who have gone awol, ie criminals, to try to strengthen her position about being anti war. She is just a bitter woman who has lost touch with sanity after the loss of her son. She just needs a haymaker wake up call.

The point is that I don't think that Cindy Sheehan is any more the "spokesperson" for the left than Ann Coulter is the "spokesperson" for the right. They get media coverage, for whatever reason. No question, those who come from a "leftist" position will use Sheehan, as will those on the "right" use Coulter. To continue to bring these two persons up as somehow being worthy of serious attention is troubling.

[SoonerBorn68]

So, in order to actually have an opinion in this country you have to do something totally stupid, shocking, or be totally intolerent...

Interesting.

Ya'll might want to start watching the news a little closer. ;)

[BeetDigger]

You are an ignorant FUKK, over 25% of fatalities/casualties in Iraq are being borne by Reservists/Guardsman...so before you write stupid dribble realize what you are saying/implying ***-hole


So much for me going out and getting a bunch of work done on this wonderful Father's Day. The best day of the year in my book.


There is no draft son. There was one? (oh, I know, that movie probably went right over your head).

So, today, you raise your hand, you take all that comes with it, reservist or active. No one is forcing anyone to be in the military.

It's nice to see that you have been pretty much pwned by others in my absence.


And to be clear, I am not saying anything negative to the great people who are serving in our military, my brother (who completed four tours to the middle east so far in his career), my cousin and many other good friends. I am not singling out reservists or active duty. I figure most who run to Canada are reservists given the distance from Iraq, but wasn't only including reservists since actives can go AWOL too.

[Scott D]

So, in order to actually have a media relevant opinion in this country you have to do something totally stupid, shocking, or be totally intolerent...

Interesting.

Ya'll might want to start watching the news a little closer. ;)

fixed ;)

[usmc-sooner]

Reminds me of a story. I was in AIT (infantry) at Fort Polk in 1970. A guy in our company always talked about how much he wanted to go to Nam and kill Gooks. This was his conversation all day, everyday. The CO began to think he was mentally unstable. He was finally Sec'd 8 with a medical discharge. We always (I still do) think it was a scam. I think the military does a better job now with mental health than they did then.

we had guys who would go on leave after boot camp and they wanted no more part of the Marine Corps. So they would show up SOI saying they smoked weed or did drugs while on leave which is an automatic discharge. They would get told that they didn't do a drug screening test until after they were done with SOI and they'd still have to finish the training. Oh the looks on this kids faces were hilarious.

[lefty]

Another story. I was in the second draft lottery. The pre-induction physical was in OKC, I lived in Tulsa. One bright and sunny day we boarded a bus in T-Town to OkC for the "experience." Half the folks on the bus were eating speed so they would have high blood pressure and get a 4-F or 1-Y draft status. So we get to OKC and go through the physical. I passed with flying colors, even though on my health history form I had had all the diseases then known to modern man. Those whose blood pressure were high were given a free nights stay in the City to be retested in the morning. As we boarded the bus back home, we laughed.

[Okla-homey]

There is an easier way than going to Canada. All they have to do is swish up to their commander and swear and certify they're pole-smokers. They'll be on the street in about 30 days tops. No psych eval req'd. Honorable discharge too in most cases :D

[soonerhubs]

While were on the topic. I went to a recruiter once contemplating serving after I got my Bachelors degree. I told them I had Obsessive Compulsive Disorder which pretty much eliminated my chances. I think it was an AF recruiter. Would OCD block me from all military opportunities?

[Okla-homey]

While were on the topic. I went to a recruiter once contemplating serving after I got my Bachelors degree. I told them I had Obsessive Compulsive Disorder which pretty much eliminated my chances. I think it was an AF recruiter. Would OCD block me from all military opportunities?

It depends on how the OCD manifests itself. If it involves whacking off 14 times a day, probably not compatible with military service. If it involves an obsessive desire to cuss and make obscene gestures, you would fit right in.;)

[soonerhubs]

It depends on how the OCD manifests itself. If it involves whacking off 14 times a day, probably not compatible with military service. If it involves an obsessive desire to cuss and make obscene gestures, you would fit right in.;)
How about obsessing about Grades in School and other perfectionist traits? I actually hyperventilated in Gradeschool over a B. :O

[Okla-homey]

How about obsessing about Grades in School and other perfectionist traits? I actually hyperventilated in Gradeschool over a B. :O

There are lots of guys like that in the military. In fact, IMHO that's one of the reasons it has evolved into a "move up or you're out" system. See, unless a guy advances through the ranks, he is often denied re-enlistment. For officers, a promotion failure means he's done. That sort of system breeds perfectionism and a morbid fear of making an honest mistake...or "B's"

[soonerhubs]

I should look into it upon my December Graduation.

[lefty]

This seems to apply to all walks of life. Admitting to making a mistake is punished, so folks cling to positions whether tenable or not.

[Okla-homey]

Now, having said all that, what exactly has Sheehan done to deserve death by firing squad other than disagree with some of you?

Because she's making a lot of dough by capitalizing on her son's combat death. Do you think all this international travel and expense is on her dime? She ain't working a job. How's she making the house payment and paying the light bill? She's being paid to voice extremist anti-American hyperbole on foreign soil. IOW, she gets money for doing dishonest things with her mouth. That makes her a ho in my book.

[Vaevictis]

Half the folks on the bus were eating speed so they would have high blood pressure and get a 4-F or 1-Y draft status.

Heh.

I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town
I believe in God and Senator Dodd and keeping old Castro down
And when it came my time to serve I knew better dead than red
But when I got to my old draft board, buddy, this is what I said:
Sarge, I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purse
I got eyes like a bat, my feet are flat, and my asthma's getting worse
O think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old invalid aunt
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a goin' to school, and I'm working in a defense plant

I've got a dislocated disc and a racked up back
I'm allergic to flowers and bugs
And when the bombshell hits, I get epileptic fits
And I'm addicted to a thousand drugs
I got the weakness woes, and I can't touch my toes
I can hardly reach my knees
And if the enemy came close to me
I'd probably start to sneeze

(chorus)

I hate Chou En Lai, and I hope he dies,
but one thing you gotta see
That someone's gotta go over there
and that someone isn't me
So I wish you well, Sarge, give 'em Hell
Yeah, Kill me a thousand or so
And if you ever get a war without blood and gore
Well I'll be the first to go

[Okla-homey]

This seems to apply to all walks of life. Admitting to making a mistake is punished, so folks cling to positions whether tenable or not.

Yes, but in most pursuits, a guy can do just enough to get by and stay with the company as long as he wants. The military doesn't work that way until a guy achieves senior NCO or field grade.

[lefty]

Heh.

I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town
I believe in God and Senator Dodd and keeping old Castro down
And when it came my time to serve I knew better dead than red
But when I got to my old draft board, buddy, this is what I said:
Sarge, I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purse
I got eyes like a bat, my feet are flat, and my asthma's getting worse
O think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old invalid aunt
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a goin' to school, and I'm working in a defense plant

I've got a dislocated disc and a racked up back
I'm allergic to flowers and bugs
And when the bombshell hits, I get epileptic fits
And I'm addicted to a thousand drugs
I got the weakness woes, and I can't touch my toes
I can hardly reach my knees
And if the enemy came close to me
I'd probably start to sneeze

(chorus)

I hate Chou En Lai, and I hope he dies,
but one thing you gotta see
That someone's gotta go over there
and that someone isn't me
So I wish you well, Sarge, give 'em Hell
Yeah, Kill me a thousand or so
And if you ever get a war without blood and gore
Well I'll be the first to go


That's be my experience.

[bri]

It depends on how the OCD manifests itself. If it involves whacking off 14 times a day, probably not compatible with military service.

Well f*ck, I do that anyway and I don't even have OCD...:D

[soonerhubs]

Well f*ck, I do that anyway and I don't even have OCD...:D
Don't have... or never been diagnosed? ;)

[jk the sooner fan]

I didn't miss his point, and yes maybe I am being too sensitive, but his point was basically that todays reservists/guardsman are the same as the Vietnam-era ones that used favors to get in to get out of serving in Vietnam (and yes I know reservists/guardsman served there - but nowhere to the extent they are serving in this war and the first gulf war)

fwiw i think you overreacted to what he posted.....of course, much of that has to do with the fact that you're guard/reserve

[jk the sooner fan]

Heh, yeah. Essentially all of the military exists to support the infantry.

I still maintain that it takes a bout of insanity (mild or otherwise, temporary or otherwise) to actually want to be infantry though :)

well that might explain why my son is currently serving in the infantry....he just got back from 3 weeks at NTC

[Scott D]

There are lots of guys like that in the military. We call them REMF's, they generally tend to advance in the officer ranks faster than a thai prostitute on a platoon of marines. :D

fixed :)

[Scott D]

Because she's making a lot of dough by capitalizing on her son's combat death. Do you think all this international travel and expense is on her dime? She ain't working a job. How's she making the house payment and paying the light bill? She's being paid to voice extremist anti-American hyperbole on foreign soil. IOW, she gets money for doing dishonest things with her mouth. That makes her a ho in my book.

makes her a tried and true politician in my book Homey ;)

[jk the sooner fan]

what exactly has Sheehan done to deserve death by firing squad other than disagree with some of you?

i wont speak for anybody else...but in my opinion, she's turned her son from a hero to a goat....she's dishonored his death, she's trampled on everything he stood for and believed in.......she's turned this "crusade" into her own agenda

you rarely hear a news story with her sons name.....but everybody knows who cindy sheehan is

[Vaevictis]

she's trampled on everything he stood for and believed in.......

Just out of curiousity, does anyone -- outside of his immediate family and closest friends (and even then, they may not know) -- really know what he stood for and believed in?

[jk the sooner fan]

his father and friends have said that he was proud of what he had done in iraq, and was very devoted to their mission

take that for what its worth

[bri]

Don't get me wrong, everyone, I'm not saying that she ISN'T a shrill, despicable opportunist who is pushing the very limits of human decency with her self-aggrandizing freakshow of a "protest"...because she is. But death for her beliefs or crusade is a bit much.

If anything, she should be beaten with live snakes. Snakes with venereal diseases.

[Vaevictis]

Well, I'm always a little bit leery of making that kind of statement.

My grandfather was apparently very strongly against Vietnam, but he only ever confided that to one person; as far as anyone else knew, he was very proud of what he was doing and was very devoted to the mission. Bad for morale and career to admit otherwise, and such. A good soldier will *always* present that he is proud of and devoted to the mission.

[GhostOfJAS]

Yes, Sheehan is a shrill scumbag for using the death of her son in this way. But I do have some limited sympathy toward the deserters. They were undoubtedly just young and ignorant when they enlisted - they obviously hadn't thought about the ramifications of what they were doing until they had faced the ugliness of a war like the one we have in Iraq.

We know the human response when facing crisis: fight or flight. They fled, which is the easy but dishonorable thing to do. They SHOULD have carried out their commitment and returned to Iraq, and if they were truly morally opposed to combat, gone on to rise through the ranks of the military and/or politics to try to stop/prevent it. Most of them will learn from their mistake as they grow. So they certainly did the cowardly thing, but I don't see any reason to wish for their death or put them in jail. That would do no one any good.

They're just messed up kids getting way more attention courtesy the rantings and ravings of the far left and right wings than they would have ever otherwise gotten. But people who wish death on them are...well, shrill scumbags. Like Cindy Sheehan.

[OCUDad]

Sarge, I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purseThanks for the trip down memory lane, Vaevictis. Good ol' Phil Ochs; if he were alive today... there's a bunch of people on the SO who'd want him dead.:rolleyes:

[Vaevictis]

Personally, I think death penalty for deserters who are not in the field is just bad policy.

You'd much rather them desert before they're deployed or while on leave than in the middle of a firefight, right? :)

[OklahomaTuba]

I just wish that instead of spending all that money to go outside the country to meet with the traitors in Canada, the Communist dictator in Venezuala and anti-American pro-terrorist groups in Europe and elsewhere, she would use some of that airfare money the left is supporting her with to buy a friggin head stone for her son.

http://www.nationalreview.com/images/sheehanasleep.jpg

Pathetic.

[jk the sooner fan]

somehow i doubt anybody calling for "her death" here is being completely literal

[TUSooner]

How about obsessing about Grades in School and other perfectionist traits? I actually hyperventilated in Gradeschool over a B. :O
You could get in, but they'd send you straight to Officer Candidate School.


;)

[usmc-sooner]

it is my opinion that liberals should get down on there knees and thank the God they don't believe in that conservatives protect their asses

[TUSooner]

...what exactly has Sheehan done to deserve death by firing squad other than disagree with some of you?

Like, that's not enough ?!


Maybe we can negspek her.

[StoopTroup]

If there were any liberals or moderates in the military...

I wouldn't support the Troops. ;)

So now were down to conservatives are the backbone...lol.

[bri]

it is my opinion that liberals should get down on there knees and thank the God they don't believe in that conservatives protect their asses

And it is my opinion that you're a blanket-statement-spewing simpleton for implying that ALL liberals are atheistic God-haters and that the military is 100% BY GAWD conservative.

[OCUDad]

it is my opinion that liberals should get down on there knees and thank the God they don't believe in that conservatives protect their assesThey're probably too busy getting down on their knees thanking their English teachers for keeping them from looking like illiterate idiots. :P

[usmc-sooner]

And it is my opinion that you're a blanket-statement-spewing simpleton for implying that ALL liberals are atheistic God-haters and that the military is 100% BY GAWD conservative.

well since I served and protected, while you grew fat and lazy and developed man boobs and overly obsessed with message boards, I'm glad you don't agree with me. :D

[Sooner24]

http://media.bestprices.com/content/dvd/90/227592.jpg

All but one man died,
There at Bitter Creek,
And they say he ran away ...

Branded!
Marked with a coward's shame.
What do you do when you're branded,
Well, you fight for your name?

He was innocent,
Not a charge was true,
But the world will never know ...

Branded!
Scorned as the one who ran.
What do you do when you're branded,
And you know you're a man?

And wherever you go
for the rest of your life
You must prove ...
You're a man!

These cowards won't be able to say the same thing. :mad:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/06/17/n061732A.jpg

[usmc-sooner]

They're probably too busy getting down on their knees thanking their English teachers for keeping them from looking like illiterate idiots. :P

or they could be kissing my *** that they are speaking English

hell who knows

[Sooner24]

This isn't the 60's where they came and drug you in and made you go fight.

If you sign on the dotted line today and don't know what could happen then you probably rode the short bus to school. But you should at least be man enough to fulfill you obligation.

http://www.poster.net/murray-bill/murray-bill-stripes-harold-ramis-3700620.jpg

[Stanley1]

This isn't the 60's where they came and drug you in and made you go fight.

If you sign on the dotted line today and don't know what could happen then you probably rode the short bus to school. But you should at least be man enough to fulfill you obligation.

http://www.poster.net/murray-bill/murray-bill-stripes-harold-ramis-3700620.jpg

Agreed. I think deserters should have two options. Come back to the states and serve prison time, or move out of the US, permenantly.

[Vaevictis]

or they could be kissing my *** that they are speaking English

Wow, you were in WWII?

[SoonerBorn68]

Wow, you were in WWII?

He might not have been but many, many of his brothers were.

[usmc-sooner]

Wow, you were in WWII?

no but I tend to be thankful of my Marine brothers who kicked *** and paved the way. We started kicking *** long before WWII.

[Vaevictis]

He might not have been but many, many of his brothers were.

So then, if it was his brothers that did it, why are we kissing his *** for it again?

[SoonerBorn68]

Speaking of which...I was doing a little research on the number of Americans tried for desertion in WWII. I found this website: Lesser Known Facts Of WWII (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/1944.html). Very interesting read.

Anyway, only one soldier was executed for desertion. I was only able to find the stats for the ETO:


Of the hundred thousand or so GI deserters from the US Army, 2,864 were tried by general court-martial for desertion since the war began. Forty-nine were sentenced to death but in only one case, that of Eddie Slovik, was the sentence carried out.

[SoonerBorn68]

So then, if it was his brothers that did it, why are we kissing his *** for it again?

He's standing in for his fallen Marine brethren. Maybe you'd like to kiss a 60 year old dead ***?

[Vaevictis]

If we're taking credit for stuff other people did, how about you kiss my *** for:

1. My great-great-great-great-somethingorother-grandfather who fought in the Revolutionary War to found this country (infantry, obviously).
2. My great-great-great-somethingorother-grandfather who fought in the Civil War to keep this country together (infantry).
3. My great-grandfather who fought in WWI to protect this country. (cavalry, the kind with horses)
4. My other great-grandfather who fought in WWI to protect this country (infantry)
4. My grandfather who fought in WWII to protect this country (Army Air Corps, gunner)
5. My other grandfather who fought in Korea and Vietnam to protect this country (pilot).
6. My cousins who served (infantry, intelligence, intelligence, medic).

... or, you could kiss *their* asses for *their* accomplishments instead of kissing mine for taking the credit for it.

He wants us to laud him for *his* accomplishments, fine. The corps for theirs? Fine. But for someone elses? Screw that.

[SoonerBorn68]

So then, if it was his brothers that did it, why are we kissing his *** for it again?

Why the hostility? You can thank the United States military for being able to be an *** on a message board, or not, but it's because of them you can act this way.

All of them: past, present, and future.

[Vaevictis]

Why the hostility? You can thank the United States military for being able to be an *** on a message board, or not, but it's because of them you can act this way.

All of them: past, present, and future.

Dude's taking credit for something he didn't do. Did he serve? Yes. Did he stop the Japs or the Krauts from taking over the world? No.

I have no problem with him taking credit for something he did, but dude probably wasn't even born when the thing he's trying to take credit for happened.

Like I said, I might as well try to take credit for something my ancestors did.

[SoonerBorn68]

Are you in or have been in the military, V?

[Vaevictis]

Nope.

(if you want, I can ask my grandfather who was in WWII, but I can summarize what his sentiments will be in one word: "idiocy.")

[SoonerBorn68]

He wants us to laud him for *his* accomplishments, fine. The corps for theirs? Fine. But for someone elses? Screw that.

I'm sure usmc is including all marines when he says "his", meaning that every Marine that has ever been is still alive in the tradition of its current members. USMC has been around here for a long time & it's been my experience that he is not a glory hog.

[usmc-sooner]

If we're taking credit for stuff other people did, how about you kiss my *** for:

1. My great-great-great-great-somethingorother-grandfather who fought in the Revolutionary War to found this country (infantry, obviously).
2. My great-great-great-somethingorother-grandfather who fought in the Civil War to keep this country together (infantry).
3. My great-grandfather who fought in WWI to protect this country. (cavalry, the kind with horses)
4. My other great-grandfather who fought in WWI to protect this country (infantry)
4. My grandfather who fought in WWII to protect this country (Army Air Corps, gunner)
5. My other grandfather who fought in Korea and Vietnam to protect this country (pilot).
6. My cousins who served (infantry, intelligence, intelligence, medic).

... or, you could kiss *their* asses for *their* accomplishments instead of kissing mine for taking the credit for it.

He wants us to laud him for *his* accomplishments, fine. The corps for theirs? Fine. But for someone elses? Screw that.

oh I'm a decorated Marine Veteran

I don't need anything from you

I don't need to list my grandpa or my cousins record I went and did it myself so maybe you could kiss my cousins ***........or you can suck on bri's man boob.

[SoonerBorn68]

Nope.

(if you want, I can ask my grandfather who was in WWII, but I can summarize what his sentiments will be in one word: "idiocy.")

I'm sorry your grandfather thinks you're an idiot.

[Vaevictis]

oh I'm a decorated Marine Veteran

Good jorb. Like I said, let's stick to our own accomplishments, shall we?

[Vaevictis]

I'm sorry your grandfather thinks you're an idiot.

Cute. No, actually, the sentiment of "idiocy" would generally be directed at anyone taking credit for "making sure we speak English," and doubly so for anyone under the age of 80ish.

[usmc-sooner]

Good jorb. Like I said, let's stick to our own accomplishments, shall we?


ughhh

that is my own accomplishment

[Vaevictis]

ughhh

that is my own accomplishment

Yes, I know. I was congratulating you for sticking to it.

[usmc-sooner]

Yes, I know. I was congratulating you for sticking to it.

no

you were acting like a a dick, who's never had to fight for anything.

[Vaevictis]

you were acting like a a dick

Since when are the two mutually exclusive? :)

I don't take exception to your taking credit for what you did, but c'mon, it's a little rediculous to take credit for things people did before you were even born.

Now, I don't know the particulars of your service, but "The Kuwaiti's can kiss my *** for kicking Saddam out of their country for them" seems a little more reasonable than "kiss my *** that they are speaking English."

[Sooner24]

no

you were acting like a a dick, who's never had to fight for anything and probably never will.


Fixed. :D

[jk the sooner fan]

Since when are the two mutually exclusive? :)

I don't take exception to your taking credit for what you did, but c'mon, it's a little rediculous to take credit for things people did before you were even born.

Now, I don't know the particulars of your service, but "The Kuwaiti's can kiss my *** for kicking Saddam out of their country for them" seems a little more reasonable than "kiss my *** that they are speaking English."

you dont have to have served to understand what he's trying to say.....but it sure helps

[bri]

Wow, "man-boobs". Clever.

I'm losing weight, but you'll ALWAYS be a f*cktard.

[Vaevictis]

you dont have to have served to understand what he's trying to say.....but it sure helps

Actually, I've had this conversation with people in my family who have served.

... and my opinion of comments like that pretty much mirrors theirs. I take my cue on military matters from them.

[jk the sooner fan]

you can talk to anybody you want

until you've actually walked it......its just a story told to you

[Vaevictis]

*shrug* Like I say, I take my cue from them. If they were here, they might not say the same thing -- my mouth is a bit bigger than theirs -- but they'd be thinking it :)

[jk the sooner fan]

well, usmc is doing the same thing with his family that you're doing with yours

[Vaevictis]

Mind you, most of them were old school military liberals, a breed that seems to be mostly extinct these days.

[Vaevictis]

well, usmc is doing the same thing with his family that you're doing with yours

Wait, I'm taking credit for ensuring that we're still speaking English here? :)

[olevetonahill]

Man knew I stayed away from this focking thread for a reason :mad:
Ford pardoned the azzholes from Canada in like 74-75
on the condition they come home and Take a Gov job for 2 years . The thing that was ****ed about that was Most of Us Nam vets COULDNT even get a job at that time .
That rants over :)
That Crazy *** broad can do what ever she wants . I DONT CARE !
In the Imortal words " It donmeannothin"
USMC why fight an Unseen enemy ?
They have either seen the Elephant , Thier gonna see the Elephant . Or they are just gonna run thier Mouths .
You either Been there done that or you just have an opinon ;)
So Carry on
My rants are Over
By the way
I was Drafted In 68 Army recon 69-70
I got Called , I went , I served . And Unlike a lot Of MY BROS . I came the **** home

[usmc-sooner]

Wait, I'm taking credit for ensuring that we're still speaking English here? :)

yeah I did my part

why all the hatred for the military

[jk the sooner fan]

Mind you, most of them were old school military liberals, a breed that seems to be mostly extinct these days.

the democratic party then is nothing like it is today.....apples and oranges

[Vaevictis]

why all the hatred for the military

You misunderstand me. I don't hate the military. On the whole, I'm pro-military. It comes with being in a military family.

I've just got hatred for stupid military ****, like when 30-50 year old vets who say "It's because of me you're still speaking English." Or, the worst excuse any vet can ever say, "I was following orders."

I have respect for the service that the vets did, but that doesn't mean they get a free pass when they say or do something stupid. :)

[SoonerBorn68]

the democratic party then is nothing like it is today.....Trumans to Sheehans.

Fixed. ;)

[OklahomaTuba]

why all the hatred for the military
It seems hatred is a pretty typical feeling among those who know the least about the military.

[Vaevictis]

the democratic party then is nothing like it is today.....apples and oranges

They were Democrats, but trust me, I'm not confusing the Dems of then with the Dems of today. They had some conservative values -- mostly related to fiscal and military issues -- but socially, they were liberal.

(mostly, I'm the same way. And like them, while I give respect to the military, it doesn't get a free pass like many of the military people on here seem to be demanding)

[SoonerBorn68]

...Or, the worst excuse any vet can ever say, "I was following orders."

I have respect for the service that the vets did, but that doesn't mean they get a free pass when they say or do something stupid. :)


4. My grandfather who fought in WWII to protect this country (Army Air Corps, gunner)

"Yeah grandson, I helped bomb and killed several thousand innocent civilians but I was just following orders."

http://www.tubespot.com/pics/geico-cavemen.jpg
Next time, do a little research.

[Vaevictis]

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of "But we were ordered to sexually humiliate those people in the course of interrogation." Or, for that matter, the whole of Vietnam.

(or, say, take credit for something that happened before you were even born)

[usmc-sooner]

You misunderstand me. I don't hate the military. On the whole, I'm pro-military. It comes with being in a military family.

I've just got hatred for stupid military ****, like when 30-50 year old vets who say "It's because of me you're still speaking English." Or, the worst excuse any vet can ever say, "I was following orders."

I have respect for the service that the vets did, but that doesn't mean they get a free pass when they say or do something stupid. :)


either your a moron or you've never been out in the "real world" those old guys kicked some *** so you can post here.

[SoonerBorn68]

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of "But we were ordered to sexually humiliate those people in the course of interrogation." Or, for that matter, the whole of Vietnam.

(or, say, take credit for something that happened before you were even born)

Dude, you better stop while you've still got some dignity.

[Vaevictis]

either your a moron or you've never been out in the "real world" those old guys kicked some *** so you can post here.

I'm pretty sure that preserving my ability to post on an internet message board never crossed their minds.

[Vaevictis]

Dude, you better stop while you've still got some dignity.

Who the f*ck cares about being dignified on an internet message board? :)

[jk the sooner fan]

you're impressive......

and i mean that as sarcastically as possible

[Vaevictis]

Well crap, like they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[SoonerBorn68]

Who the f*ck cares about being dignified on an internet message board? :)

Heh, you should. You're looking like an overripe focturd.

[SoonerBorn68]

Well crap, like they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

...but they don't speak English.

[Vaevictis]

Heh, you should. You're looking like an overripe focturd.

Nah, we've got a ways to go yet. We're not even close to comparing anyone to Hitler or the Nazi's.

[SoonerBorn68]

And I'm guessing you're an expert on the subject, right?

You've certainly shown your expertise on other aspects of this thread. :rolleyes:

[Scott D]

well this thread went from sublimely stupid to extremely stupid in the span of 126 posts....WELL DONE PEOPLE...WELL DONE.

[usmc-sooner]

I'm pretty sure that preserving my ability to post on an internet message board never crossed their minds.


female anotomy

[Vaevictis]

Wait, there was actual expertise displayed by anyone here?

Maybe I missed it with all the idiotic posturing by the marine and myself :)

[Scott D]

well gunny seemed to have some sort of expertise about bri's chest for some disconcerting reason ;)

[Sooner24]

well this thread went from sublimely stupid to extremely stupid in the span of 126 posts....WELL DONE PEOPLE...WELL DONE.


The only thing saving it is your avatar. :D

[Vaevictis]

well this thread went from sublimely stupid to extremely stupid in the span of 126 posts....WELL DONE PEOPLE...WELL DONE.

I absolutely aim to please.

[Vaevictis]

well gunny seemed to have some sort of expertise about bri's chest for some disconcerting reason ;)

Hey hey hey. Don't ask, don't tell.

[Scott D]

The only thing saving it is your avatar. :D

perhaps I should post more in this thread. ;)

if I was ever gonna desert, I'd move to Brazil ;)

[SoonerBorn68]

well this thread went from sublimely stupid to extremely stupid in the span of 126 posts....WELL DONE PEOPLE...WELL DONE.


Well, sometimes you gotta play down to your competition. :D

[Scott D]

Well, sometimes you gotta play down to your competition. :D

well I'd attempt to make this highbrow, but well....deserters and draft dodgers are below pond scum to me and best not spoken about.

[Vaevictis]

Well, sometimes you gotta play down to your competition. :D

Exactly.

[SoonerBorn68]

...and Scott, you've never been one to give anyone a free pass.

[SoonerBorn68]

Exactly.

You know I was talking about you...Get some years and experience under your belt & you might not be wakin' up, lookin' up.

[Scott D]

free passes only go to hot Brazilian chicks :D

[Vaevictis]

You know I was talking about you...

Hey, I knew exactly who you were talking about. And I'm thinking you know exactly who I was talking about.

... not that any one of us really gives a rat's *** about what the other thinks.

[Vaevictis]

free passes only go to hot Brazilian chicks :D

Be honest: Does nationality really matter?

[JohnnyMack]

female anotomy

Mulva?

[Vaevictis]

Are you in or have been in the military, V?

Actually, here's what I think is a fair question: Obviously, the implication is that if I answer "No" to this question then my opinion is automatically invalid.

What happens if someone answers "Yes" to this question? Does the opinion then become valid?

[Vaevictis]

Or better yet, let's twist the question a little bit and see if the same logic applies:

How many of you bitching about Cindy Sheehan have had your kid die in Iraq?

[SoonerBorn68]

Actually, here's what I think is a fair question: Obviously, the implication is that if I answer "No" to this question then my opinion is automatically invalid.

What happens if someone answers "Yes" to this question? Does the opinion then become valid?

I asked the question knowing you haven't served. You'd still be in on your first hitch if you were. I'm guessing you're about 20-23.

I don't think your point is invalid either way. I just don't agree with you on your points & then you tried to be smart trying to call out usmc on the "they" not "you" point, which is really weak and that got me going.

You say that humiliating a few Iraqis is wrong, I don't disagree but way too much was made of it. Who cares? The Germans made lampshades out of human skin, the Viet Cong tortured American aviators, the Japanese beheaded American soldiers and ate their livers. Having your picture taken while making a naked human pyramid seems pretty mild compared to the other examples. People today seem to think we, as a world, are past the barbarism that is human nature, but we're not.

Your opinion is just as good as the rest of us. We just don't agree on what's important.

[Vaevictis]

I asked the question knowing you haven't served. You'd still be in on your first hitch if you were. I'm guessing you're about 20-23.

Little older, not far off though.


I don't think your point is invalid either way.

Question then: If it's not particularly relevant, why ask?


I just don't agree with you on your points & then you tried to be smart trying to call out usmc on the "they" not "you" point, which is really weak and that got me going.

Well, IMO, suggesting that "I'm the reason you're still speaking English" is really weak too, especially from someone who wasn't there.

Same with suggesting that "they did it for your freedom", especially from someone who wasn't there -- every WWII vet I've talked to did it because they killed some of our own. Revenge and/or not letting them get away with it was a (the) primary factor.

(You'll notice that the wars we've straight up won in the last 100 years or so had little to do with protecting anyone's freedom; they had more to do with someone attacking us and our own survival :) )

EDIT: let me correct myself, the first Iraq war is an exception.


You say that humiliating a few Iraqis is wrong, I don't disagree but way too much was made of it. Who cares?

I care. And not just because what they did was wrong, that's bad, but it's not the worst of it.

Saying "Well, I was ordered to" points to an total command failure, both because they never should have been ordered to, and because they should have known that the orders were illegal and that they should be refused.

Such gross discipline breakdowns are indicitive of much larger problems, and from everything I can tell, the whole thing has been whitewashed and the underlying issues left unresolved.

All that aside, the worst of it is that it made us additional enemies. Somewhere down the line, someone who took up arms because of that clusterf*ck is going to kill Americans, either soldiers or civilian or both. That's the worst part of it: it's going to eventually get people killed.

[Sooner24]

All that aside, the worst of it is that it made us additional enemies. Somewhere down the line, someone who took up arms because of that clusterf*ck is going to kill Americans, either soldiers or civilian or both. That's the worst part of it: it's going to eventually get people killed.


Gee that was already happening before we started going after the scum but I guess we should just let them go about unopposed as long as we don't make them mad. :rolleyes:

[Vaevictis]

Gee that was already happening before we started going after the scum but I guess we should just let them go about unopposed as long as we don't make them mad. :rolleyes:

The more enemies we make, the more people are trying to kill us.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought the ultimate goal of this exercise was to reduce the number of people in the world who were out to kill us. Given that, it just doesn't make sense to make any more enemies than we must.

Was what happened at Abu Grahib absolutely necessary in the pursuit of our goals? Was it even helpful? How many people took up arms against us as a result of that, and how many people who already had were taken out of the game as a result? How much harder did the job get for our troops as a result of the damage to our image?

What does the balance sheet look like? My guess is that it was a net loss for our side.

[Octavian]

...I thought the ultimate goal of this exercise was to reduce the number of people in the world who were out to kill us. Given that, it just doesn't make sense to make any more enemies than we must.

dude....you missed the point.

we're out to prove our god is better...fight against the ideology of theocracy while becoming one ourselves...and prosecute flag-burners.

shame on you.

[Sooner24]

That's why it's just a guess.

[olevetonahill]

No son
The GOAL was to slap thier stupid azzes silly and make sure they KNOW not to **** with us anymore

[Scott D]

Be honest: Does nationality really matter?

at this point and time yes....she must be Brazilian.

[Vaevictis]

No son
The GOAL was to slap thier stupid azzes silly and make sure they KNOW not to **** with us anymore

Doesn't look like it's worked so far then, cause they're still ****ing with us.

[olevetonahill]

Doesn't look like it's worked so far then, cause they're still ****ing with us.
Really ?
weve had HOW many terriost attacks Here since then ?
Now Im gonna do us both a favor and you can do me 1 if you want ?
Thats to STFU befor I go balistic on you !:mad:
Hows that sound ?:)

[Vaevictis]

Really ?
weve had HOW many terriost attacks Here since then ?

I suppose the couple thousand military dead don't count?


Now Im gonna do us both a favor and you can do me 1 if you want ?
Thats to STFU befor I go balistic on you !:mad:
Hows that sound ?:)

I've got a better idea: how about I not shut up, and you go ballistic for my amusement? :)

[SoonerBorn68]

Those people have been at war for thousands of years. Western culture has crept in & is telling women that they have rights as well as the common folks. The mullahs and the theocracy are scared to death they will lose their power & turning us into the great satan is their scapegoat to not losing their stranglehold on the people.

Abu whatever is their rally cry today. These religous whack jobs would jihad McDonalds if there was a line at the drive thru.

Blame the Limeys for making a power out of them. They were the ones who discovered oil over there & giving them the means to drill it themselves.

[Octavian]

These religous whack jobs...

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7382/santorum0501069pn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Vaevictis]

Understood. But not every one of the people fighting us in Iraq is a religious whack job.

Like you said, these people have been at war for thousands of years. Mostly, it's because of the requirement that every slight against a member of your clan/tribe/whatever be avenged.

So, what do you think the going rate would be, in terms of revenge, for the sexual humiliation of a brother/sister/daughter/son?

[SoonerBorn68]

So, what do you think the going rate would be, in terms of revenge, for the sexual humiliation of a brother/sister/daughter/son?

Dude, what you're not getting is that it doesn't matter, you could try to shake their hands left handed & they'd go all jihad. I'm sure their pretty ****ed about the humilation, but the thing is that we, as Westerns, will never understand that culture and it will be far worse not to finish the job over there. In Vietnam we left the fight over there...these whack jobs will bring the fight over there...and this case I don't mind playing on the road.

[SoonerBorn68]

...and Oct, if I remember right we didn't fly hijacked planes into Mecca.

It's kind of like the dude that rides the bull. He might not have wanted to get on but once he's there he's on for the full ride.

[Vaevictis]

Dude, what you're not getting is that, yes, I understand that one incident doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

But what you're glossing over is that it's still going to end with some people dead, killed by people who took up arms specifically because of that one incident. They're probably going to be American soldiers. And the fact is, it didn't have to go down that way.

[olevetonahill]

Dude, what you're not getting is that, yes, I understand that one incident doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

But what you're glossing over is that it's still going to end with some people dead, killed by people who took up arms specifically because of that one incident. They're probably going to be American soldiers. And the fact is, it didn't have to go down that way.

So fix it . Here on a message board .

[Vaevictis]

So fix it . Here on a message board .

Obviously, there's no fixing it on a message board. However, I aim to try to make what change I can at the poll in November.

First on my priority list is a Congressman I think is likely to, you know, do their job as a member of a branch that is theoretically in opposition to the executive and is supposed to provide a little something called "oversight." Congress as a whole -- both Democrat and Republican -- have totally failed in their duty in this regard.

Frankly, I'm more than willing to vote for someone of either party towards that end.

(it's not that I demand that they oppose the President, it's that I demand that they be willing to even when the political windsock isn't pointing in that direction.)

[SoonerBorn68]

But what you're glossing over is that it's still going to end with some people dead, killed by people who took up arms specifically because of that one incident. They're probably going to be American soldiers. And the fact is, it didn't have to go down that way.

I'm not glossing it over. Kill them. Martyre them. If it wasn't that it would have been something else. Yes, there might be a cost but there's no way to know which ones decided to die because of some naked human pyramids. There is a solution...I'll concede your point on Abu whatever if you'll concede that they'll jihad over burnt toast.

[Octavian]

...and Oct, if I remember right we didn't fly hijacked planes into Mecca.

we surely didn't...and those Muslim fanatics who've declared war on America deserve American bombs.

but that doesn't mean we're somehow completely innocent...our government placed thousands of foreign troops on the Saudi Arabia peninsula before and after the Gulf War.

If we'd have lost the Cold War and the Soviet Union would've placed thousands of troops in Kansas....who among us wouldn't have taken up arms?

Many of us on the board would be considered a "terrorist" by the Kremlin.

[Vaevictis]

There is a solution...I'll concede your point on Abu whatever if you'll concede that they'll jihad over burnt toast.

No argument on that. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't give them excuses to if it's not necessary.

[SoonerBorn68]

surely didn't...and those Muslim fanatics who've declared war on America deserve American bombs.

but that doesn't mean we're somehow completely innocent...our government placed thousands of foreign troops on the Saudi Arabia peninsula before and after the Gulf War.

If we'd have lost the Cold War and the Soviet Union would've placed thousands of troops in Kansas....who among us wouldn't have taken up arms?

Many of us on the board would be considered a "terrorist" by the Kremlin.

Nice point Oct...Allah Akbar! Death to the Comrads!

...and stop calling my shirley. :D

[Vaevictis]

Many of us on the board would be considered a "terrorist" by the Kremlin.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure most of us on this board wouldn't deliberately kill civilians. You can label someone a terrorist, but that doesn't make it so.

(same goes for the few -- assuming any exist at all -- in Iraq that restrict their attacks to military targets only. They're not terrorists.)

[Okla-homey]

Understood. But not every one of the people fighting us in Iraq is a religious whack job.

Like you said, these people have been at war for thousands of years. Mostly, it's because of the requirement that every slight against a member of your clan/tribe/whatever be avenged.



I disagree. They kill b/c they think their God want's them to do so. Especially the suicide bombers. Frankly, I am not aware of a historical example of fighters who deliberately and premeditatitively kill themselves in order kill others who were not motivated by religion.

[Sooner24]

we surely didn't...and those Muslim fanatics who've declared war on America deserve American bombs.

but that doesn't mean we're somehow completely innocent...our government placed thousands of foreign troops on the Saudi Arabia peninsula before and after the Gulf War.

If we'd have lost the Cold War and the Soviet Union would've placed thousands of troops in Kansas....who among us wouldn't have taken up arms?

Many of us on the board would be considered a "terrorist" by the Kremlin.



Probably the same ones on here afraid of making terrorist so mad they might kill more people. Just like in football, the best offense is a good defense.

[jk the sooner fan]

Understood. But not every one of the people fighting us in Iraq is a religious whack job.



really? what percentage of them do you think are not religious "whack jobs"?

[usmc-sooner]

I love it when I get these little messages in my spek thing

you're a pathetic ****ing idiot, go to hell, you worthless, dumbass piece of ****

cause you know the little liberal had the conviction and enough balls to at least sign his fake internet name. (yeah right)

It's not like I could look up the the name vaevictis in the phone book

but it was good for an early morning laugh.

[jk the sooner fan]

yeah he supports the troops alright

like i said, "impressive"

[usmc-sooner]

really? what percentage of them do you think are not religious "whack jobs"?


you know jk you're talking to a guy who has given us such message board classics as the 14 reasons that Bush is like Hitler.

[Vaevictis]

really? what percentage of them do you think are not religious "whack jobs"?

Well, of those who blow themselves up, probably a zero or nearly zero number.

Of those who plant IEDs or snipe at us, I'm thinking the number is non-zero. I really don't have a clue what the number is to be honest, other than to say that I'm pretty confident that it's non-zero.

My main point is that the number is non-zero and with each incident where we offend someone, that number goes up. Apparently, the military doesn't entirely disagree with me, because they have a guy on special assignment now going around and trying to train people not to **** off the locals if it's not necessary.

I'm not saying don't do what it takes to kill the enemy, I'm saying that if it's not necessary in the course of the mission, don't give people who aren't fighting you currently a reason to do so.

[Vaevictis]

you know jk you're talking to a guy who has given us such message board classics as the 14 reasons that Bush is like Hitler.

Really. Link?


I love it when I get these little messages in my spek thing

you're a pathetic ****ing idiot, go to hell, you worthless, dumbass piece of ****

cause you know the little liberal had the conviction and enough balls to at least sign his fake internet name. (yeah right)

It's not like I could look up the the name vaevictis in the phone book

but it was good for an early morning laugh.

That wasn't me. The one you just received was, however. I sign my spek, and I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've given you any, neg or otherwise.

[Sooner24]

They want to kill us all anyway so we might as well give them a reason. :D

[Vaevictis]

They want to kill us all anyway so we might as well give them a reason. :D

Meh. Except for, you know, the people over there that don't care one way or the other and just want to live their lives. Let's not give them a reason unless we have to, eh? We turn those people against us, and it translates directly into American dead who didn't really have to die.

*broken record*

[Sooner24]

The more I read of your post the more I think you must be French.

[OCUDad]

The more I read of your post the more I think you must be French.In which case, he doesn't have to thank usmc-sooner for anything :cool:

[Sooner24]

He should thank him just for the simple fact usmc has the gonads to protect his cheese eating wine sipping French butt. :D

[BeetDigger]

He should thank him just for the simple fact usmc has the gonads to protect his cheese eating wine sipping French butt. :D


We should all thank all of our military, past and present for their efforts. I sure as heck appreciate everything that they have done for our country. We are all living off of the fruits of their labor. :)

[Sooner24]

We should all thank all of our military, past and present for their efforts. I sure as heck appreciate everything that they have done for our country. We are all living off of the fruits of their labor. :)

AMEN!!!