Soccer peeps, what's wif the "draw?"

[Okla-homey]

I watched a bit of USA v. Italy.

Would it kill you people to allow extra innings or overtime for goodness sakes?

I feel unsatiated.

kiss my big white Okie butt FIFA.

[JohnnyMack]

Watch the Stanley Cup Finals tonight instead. Infinitely more entertaining.

[Scott D]

I watched a bit of USA v. Italy.

Would it kill you people to allow extra innings or overtime for goodness sakes?

I feel unsatiated.

kiss my big white Okie butt FIFA.

it's round robin play, hence why games can end in draws....once they go to the quarterfinals games have extra time followed by penalty kicks if it's still tied.

[BajaOklahoma]

And we're taking up a collection for a hit on the ref. He needs to be put out of everyone's misery. :)

[Scott D]

you missed the fun statistics of his I posted in the other thread baja.

[lefty]

Here's the importance of the tie.

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/5704208?GT1=8297

Sounds like Rube Goldberg came up with this system.

[Hatfield]

tie was huge coupled with the checks loss. now we need italy to beat the checks and us to beat ghana and we advance to the next round....i think.

[birddog]

Watch the Stanley Cup Finals tonight instead. Infinitely more entertaining.
good lord you're so wrong about that. group play is 3 point for a win and 1 for a tie. after all four teams in each group have played each other, the top 2 teams advance to elimination games.

[Scott D]

tie was huge coupled with the checks loss. now we need italy to beat the checks and us to beat ghana and we advance to the next round....i think.

Italy beats Czechs and we beat Ghana we are in...only other scenario is Czechs and Italy draw, and we beat Ghana by like 5.

[GottaHavePride]

Italy beats Czechs and we beat Ghana we are in...only other scenario is Czechs and Italy draw, and we beat Ghana by like 5.

If Czech and Italy draw, and we beat Ghana, the standings would be

1. Italy 1-0-2, 5 pts.
2. Czech 1-1-1, 4 pts.
2. USA 1-1-1, 4 pts.
4. Ghana 1-2-0, 3 pts.

First tiebreaker is head-to-head, right? We lost to Czech, so we'd be ****ed in that situation. Goal differential is the second tiebreaker.

We can move on if Czechs beat Italy - we'd be tied pointwise with Italy (assuming a win against Ghana) - but we'd need a combination of Czech winning big and us winning big over Ghana to get our goal differential better than Italy's. At any rate - if Italy and Czech tie, we don't go on.

[Scott D]

this should explain better.


World Cup Standings Tiebreakers

When teams are tied on points in the group standings the following tiebreakers will apply:

1. Highest goal difference
2. Most goals for
3. Result of group match between the teams
4. Drawing of lots

[Okla-homey]

Drawing of lots? Why don't they just have a hoodoo lady read chicken guts? sheesh.

[GottaHavePride]

OK, you made me go look it up...


The ranking of each team in each group will be determined as
follows:
a) greatest number of points obtained in all group matches;
b) goal difference in all group matches;
c) greatest number of goals scored in all group matches.

If two or more teams are equal on the basis of the above three criteria,
their rankings will be determined as follows:
d) greatest number of points obtained in the group matches between
the teams concerned;
e) goal difference resulting from the group matches between the
teams concerned;
f) greater number of goals scored in all group matches between the
teams concerned;
g) drawing of lots by the Organising Committee for the FIFA World
Cup™.
I found this in their regulations for the finals. You'll want pages 40-41. (http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/i/eu/fifa/regen.pdf)

OK, so an Italy-Czech draw would not totally screw us, but since a draw wouldn't change Czech's goal differential (which is +1 right now after losing to Ghana) we'd still have to beat Ghana by a margin of about 5-0 to pass the Czechs in that situation. So we'd still basically be screwed. ;)

Am I the only one that finds it strange that head-to-head result is actually not a tiebreaker in the World cup finals? I mean, if it came down to a tie between us and the Czech Republic, the fact that they beat us when we played has absolutely no bearing on who wins the tie. Bizarre.

[bri]

Well, head-to-head results aren't very sporting. Or Socialist. :D

[GottaHavePride]

Heh.

[TUSooner]

All in all, this draw wasn't so bad. We showed were were the manly men, playing with stiches in the face, while they took turns getting carried off the field on a stretcher. Frikkin wussies.

[Stanley1]

I watched the entire game.....er, match, and it just reaffirmed my thoughts on soccer. Offsides has to be the worst rule in ALL of sports. It is one of the many rules that make the game a defensive drudge match. Also, I got so frickin' sick and tired of the "fake" fall downs. Bet it happened 20+ times between the two teams. Some of them were obvious.

Guys taking shots on goal and not even being close. Pathetic.

[Scott D]

blah blah blah blah blah

don't you have a slow pitch girlie ball game today or something? :D

[Stanley1]

don't you have a slow pitch girlie ball game today or something? :D

Ahh.....someone's upset cause they suck at sports. :rolleyes: ;)

[Scott D]

Ahh.....someone's upset cause they suck at sports. :rolleyes: ;)

that's funny...my trophies and awards say I didn't suck at sports :)

[Stanley1]

that's funny...my trophies and awards say I didn't suck at sports :)

I had a friend was a big baseball player
Back in high school
He could throw that speedball by ya,
Make you look like a fool
Saw him the other night at this roadside bar
I was walking in he was walking out
We went back inside, sat down, had a few drinks,
But all we kept talking about

Glory Days, yeah they'll pass you by
Glory Days, in the wink of a young girl's eye
Glory Days, glory days

There's this girl that lives up the block,
Back in school she could turn all the boys heads
Sometimes on Friday I'll stop by and have a few drinks
After she put her kids to bed
Her and her husband Bobby, well they split up,
I guess it's two years gone by
We just sit around talking about the old times,
She says when she feels like crying she starts laughing thinking about

Glory Days, yeah they'll pass you by
Glory Days, in the wink of a young girl's eye
Glory Days, glory days

Think I'm going down to the well tonight and I'm
Gonna drink till I get my fill
I hope when I get older I don't sit around thinking about it,
But I probably will
Yeah just sitting back trying to recapture
A little of the glory of
Well the time slips away and leaves you with nothing, mister,
But boring stories of...

Glory Days, yeah they'll pass you by
Glory Days, in the wink of a young girl's eye
Glory Days, glory days

Well alright!

Oh yeah...


:D

[Scott D]

good idea....I'll have a beer...this minifridge I got for my birthday is coming in handy :)

[Stanley1]

lol

[JohnnyMack]

good lord you're so wrong about that. group play is 3 point for a win and 1 for a tie. after all four teams in each group have played each other, the top 2 teams advance to elimination games.

I don't need your "how to score a world cup bracket" update to tell me that it's fu*king boring to watch team USA play two games and score 1 goal.

If you watched game 6 of the Stanley Cup tonight and think that the US/Italy soccer game was better, it's akin to me arguing with Tuba about Iraq.

[Boarder]

that's funny...my trophies and awards say I didn't suck at sports :)


Did you get them in 1982?

http://adweek.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/jongries.jpg

:D

[birddog]

allright dude. carolina v. edmonton> usa v. italy.:rolleyes: good job dude. you're opinion is a fact. go look up the ratings and get back to me.

[JohnnyMack]

allright dude. carolina v. edmonton> usa v. italy.:rolleyes: good job dude. you're opinion is a fact. go look up the ratings and get back to me.

I'll take the action, scoring, emotion, energy and passion put forth in the Stanley Cup finals any day over a 1-1 soccer game. Just my opinion, but I still say the World Cup is the most overrated sporting event this side of the summer Olympics.

[birddog]

I'll take the action, scoring, emotion, energy and passion put forth in the Stanley Cup finals any day over a 1-1 soccer game. Just my opinion, but I still say the World Cup is the most overrated sporting event this side of the summer Olympics.
well, then you might want to go cast your vote over at espn for what is the most entertaining to watch. oh wait, stanley cup isn't even listed.:D

[JohnnyMack]

well, then you might want to go cast your vote over at espn for what is the most entertaining to watch. oh wait, stanley cup isn't even listed.:D

I'll take a team making the playoffs on the last day of the regular season, riding the 8th seed all the way to the finals and being one win away from hoisting the most important trophy in all of professional sports, with their backup goalie starting for them mind you, any day over a bunch of whiny *** SI cover boys who are one game away from getting their collective asses bounced out of the first round, again. But that's just me.

[BajaOklahoma]

You guys crack me up.

[GottaHavePride]

Offsides has to be the worst rule in ALL of sports. It is one of the many rules that make the game a defensive drudge match.
Or it keeps the game from turning into "let's see who can boot the ball back to the other end of the field before anyone else gets there". I'd rather not watch a goalies' punting match.

And when hockey was on strike you know what they had on instead? Professional darts, and darts got better ratings.

[sooner n houston]

These "tie breaker" rules make the BCS look reasonable! :D

[Vaevictis]

with their backup goalie's backup starting for them mind you

Fixed it for you.

[Stanley1]

Or it keeps the game from turning into "let's see who can boot the ball back to the other end of the field before anyone else gets there". I'd rather not watch a goalies' punting match.



I was talking about more when a team had the ball on their scoring side of the field. Having to stay "in front" of the defense until the ball is in the air just doesn't make much sense. To me, it would create a little more scoring, and "more goal-area activity", if they'd let them take off whenever they wanted.

Hope I explained that right.

[Vaevictis]

I was talking about more when a team had the ball on their scoring side of the field. Having to stay "in front" of the defense until the ball is in the air just doesn't make much sense. To me, it would create a little more scoring, and "more goal-area activity", if they'd let them take off whenever they wanted.

Hope I explained that right.


Oooh! Ooh! And while we're at it, let's institute sudden death overtime, and stick the field inside a hockey rink.

Oh wait. That already exists. Just watch the MISL if you want fast paced soccer.

[GottaHavePride]

I was talking about more when a team had the ball on their scoring side of the field. Having to stay "in front" of the defense until the ball is in the air just doesn't make much sense. To me, it would create a little more scoring, and "more goal-area activity", if they'd let them take off whenever they wanted.

Hope I explained that right.

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I guess they just want to make it so you have to have some skill to get past the defenders without violating the rule. Although the rule is actually somewhat similar to hockey's offside rule.

[BajaOklahoma]

Stanley, the actual rule (which isn't always called correctly) is based on your position at the moment the ball is touched or put in play. It is not where you are when the ball passes you. This is one of the most poorly understood and miscalled rules in soccer.
The object of the rule is to prevent the offense from planting a couple of players in front of the goal (cherry-picking) and just kicking the ball over the other team to them. Then the game would be soccer-tennis, which is played during fun practices. :)

[BajaOklahoma]

And GHP is correct, it is like hockey offsides.
Hockey is like soccer-on-skates-and-with-sticks.

[Stanley1]

Yeah, I think I understand the rule, and when it should be called. I guess I was just thinking if the offense "cherry-picked", the defense would have to react and defend it.

I'm all for defensive-oriented sports. I love good defense, rather it be in baseball, basketball, or football. I just think soccer makes it too hard on the offense. When a team has a one man advantage, and still has trouble getting good shots on the goal, to me at least, and guy that really doesn't watch much soccer or care for the sport, that points to a problem.

I'm done now. I doubt anybody that is a true soccer fan cares what I say, and I've made it clear that I'm not a big fan of the sport.

Go USA!

[Vaevictis]

And GHP is correct, it is like hockey offsides.

If by "like" you mean that humans are like blue lines, then you would be correct ;)

[GottaHavePride]

If by "like" you mean that humans are like blue lines, then you would be correct ;)

Exactly. Movable blue lines. And they only matter right when you kick the ball. ;)

[Vaevictis]

So basically what you're saying is that the hockey offside rule is nothing like the soccer one ;)

[BajaOklahoma]

If by "like" you mean that humans are like blue lines, then you would be correct ;)

Yeap. But we are talking basic ideas here. :O
Forwards, defenders, goalies, passing, blocking, take-aways, breakaways, set plays, goalie box/circle..... I'm trying to get the guys to see the similarities to something they understand......

And go watch the OU girl's soccer team play. It fun. Great camp too.

[silverwheels]

How hard is it to understand that you can tie in round robin play, but not in the single elimination tournament? ****.


I'm drunk so whatever.

[bri]

Or it keeps the game from turning into "let's see who can boot the ball back to the other end of the field before anyone else gets there". I'd rather not watch a goalies' punting match.

In hockey they call that "dump and chase". It's EXCITING!!!

Maybe they should give the soccer goalies sticks. Hitting things with sticks is always more exciting than punting. :D

[GottaHavePride]

In hockey they call that "dump and chase". It's EXCITING!!!

Maybe they should give the soccer goalies sticks. Hitting things with sticks is always more exciting than punting. :D

They could just prep the field with land mines. That would really increase the excitement - always wondering if a slide-tackle is going to result in fiery death... ;)

[Okla-homey]

How about if they gave the goalie a double-barrel shotgun and allowed him to shoot exactly twice during the match?

[BeetDigger]

I find it so ironic that I cause a freaking uproar by asking about the game and get a weanie negspek for pointing out a fact about soccer and ESPN and yet a ton of folks on here cause a much smaller uproar by basically saying that Soccer sucks. Soccer people don't mind when you state an opinion about soccer, but when you state a fact and then question why, you have insulted soccer fans everywhere. :D

Personally, I kind of like watching the game. I never played it but what little exposure I have had to the game makes me appreciate their skill level and how in shape they are.

What I don't like about the game is:

1 - a two goal lead is pretty much insurmountable
2 - stoppage time at the end of regulation - seems like a pretty arbitrary amount of time to me - why don't they just stop the clock then everyone will know when the game is going to end?
3 - one, perhaps two, too many people on the field. Either this or take Stanley's suggestion and get rid of offsides when you have the ball on your half of the field.
4 - how can an official with record be officiating in a world cup game? That referee in the US-Italy game should be no where near a field.
5 - and lastly, please don't call them matches, they are games, it's not marking, it is guarding, it's not a friendly, it's a scrimmage (there are a few others but I can't think of them now). :D

[silverwheels]

There is no offsides on your own half of the field, unless you're talking about playing the ball from your half of the field to the other with someone in the offsides position.

[Vaevictis]

2 - stoppage time at the end of regulation - seems like a pretty arbitrary amount of time to me - why don't they just stop the clock then everyone will know when the game is going to end?

It's not arbitrary. They actually do stop the clock, it's just that the referee is literally carrying the clock, and there's no mechanism for communicating this to the scoreboard/TV people.

As for why, I don't know for sure. One nice thing is that there's no play stoppage for the refs to bitch-out the time keeper for buggering the clock.

Truthfully, I think it has as much to do with not requiring everyone in the FIFA world to have the equipment to handle this (keep in mind how poor many of the countries are -- such systems aren't cheap).

[BajaOklahoma]

I never played it but what little exposure I have had to the game makes me appreciate their skill level and how in shape they are.

What I don't like about the game is:

1 - a two goal lead is pretty much insurmountable
2 - stoppage time at the end of regulation - seems like a pretty arbitrary amount of time to me - why don't they just stop the clock then everyone will know when the game is going to end?
3 - one, perhaps two, too many people on the field. Either this or take Stanley's suggestion and get rid of offsides when you have the ball on your half of the field.
4 - how can an official with record be officiating in a world cup game? That referee in the US-Italy game should be no where near a field.
5 - and lastly, please don't call them matches, they are games, it's not marking, it is guarding, it's not a friendly, it's a scrimmage (there are a few others but I can't think of them now). :D

1. Unless you get the card-happy ref. Though a good team can adapt there style of play to counter the play of the other team - that can change the game.
2. At a game, you can actually ask the linesman how much time is left and they can tell you. We always assigned a parent to stopwatch duty - and woe to the parent who forgets his job. I don't like it either.
3. Kids start out with less players - the US is experiementing with 4 and 6 player teams for the youngest groups. My kids played with 9 on each team until age 10 (I think). The new limitation is thought to increase the opportunity to develop basic skills. And the field is huge to run up and down for 90 minutes. More players = more passes = less fatigue.
4. Bane him or shoot him.
5. Since the US hasn't fully embraced soccer, we have no say in the terminology. Boots/cleats, headers, volley......

[Scott D]

5 - and lastly, please don't call them matches, they are games, it's not marking, it is guarding, it's not a friendly, it's a scrimmage (there are a few others but I can't think of them now). :D

quit hating that they are matches played on a pitch :)

[GottaHavePride]

2 - stoppage time at the end of regulation - seems like a pretty arbitrary amount of time to me - why don't they just stop the clock then everyone will know when the game is going to end?
It is fairly arbitrary, and in the rules the length of stoppage time is left to the discretion of the referee. But it is put there to compensate for time wasted during the game by making substitutions and injuries, since the clock doesn't stop even for those.

The announcers mentioned a general guideline is 30 seconds per substitution, so if both teams use all three substitutions you'll usually see 3 minutes of stoppage time - injuries can add more, though I haven't yet seen a game that they go above 5 minutes or so.

Also, the reason it's not always exactly 3 minutes, or whatever, is to give teams a sporting chance. Usually a referee will let the game continue if one of the teams is in the middle of making a run at the goal - he'll wait until the attacking team loses possession before stopping the game. I guess they'd rather give a team that's behind that last chance to score rather than stop just because the clock said so. ;)

[TUSooner]

It is fairly arbitrary, and in the rules the length of stoppage time is left to the discretion of the referee. But it is put there to compensate for time wasted during the game by making substitutions and injuries, since the clock doesn't stop even for those.

The announcers mentioned a general guideline is 30 seconds per substitution, so if both teams use all three substitutions you'll usually see 3 minutes of stoppage time - injuries can add more, though I haven't yet seen a game that they go above 5 minutes or so.

Also, the reason it's not always exactly 3 minutes, or whatever, is to give teams a sporting chance. Usually a referee will let the game continue if one of the teams is in the middle of making a run at the goal - he'll wait until the attacking team loses possession before stopping the game. I guess they'd rather give a team that's behind that last chance to score rather than stop just because the clock said so. ;)

If you've ever seen a college MATCH ;) you'd appreciate the additional time. In college, the half ends at the buzzer, no ifs ands or buts. A team could be lining up for a corner, but never get to take it. A team nursing a 1-goal lead can stall and get away with it. It's really pathetic to see player dashing down the field alone on a breakaway and hear the buzzer. The NCAA needs to add stoppage time.

As for the Anglicized terminology - I kinda agree with beet digger... kinda.
There's no reason why we can't Americanize the language a bit. "cleats/shoes" instead of boots, "nothing" instead of nil, "field" instead of pitch. "Match" is American enough, though, and "mark up!" just sounds better than "guard somebody!" :rolleyes: In fact, I think using an American soccer vernacular is a small step toward making the game itself more palatable to future American aficionadoes.
If we know the substance of the game, who cares about the rest?

[Scott D]

As for the Anglicized terminology - I kinda agree with beet digger... kinda.There's no reason why we can't Americanize the language a bit. "cleats/shoes" instead of boots, "nothing" instead of nil, "field" instead of pitch. "Match" is American enough, though, and "mark up!" just sounds better than "guard somebody!" :rolleyes: In fact, I think using an American soccer vernacular is a small step toward making the game itself more palatable to future American aficionadoes.
If we know the substance of the game, who cares about the rest?

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/images/reputation/reputation_highneg.gif

I keed I keed :D

[GottaHavePride]

The NCAA needs to add stoppage time.

Add unpredictability to the rules of the game? Leave something up to the discretion of an individual when it could be mercilessly hammered into a gigantic rule code that sucks uniformly in all situations? That doesn't sound like the NCAA I know. ;)

[Newbomb Turk]

good lord - this is is bad as the Tulsa > OKC thread.