View Full Version : question for those who believe in heaven/hell
PDXsooner
6/13/2006, 04:08 PM
i'm curious about something -- in your respective opinions (which i realize is nothing more than a guess) - how do you think the whole thing goes down?
i mean, say you're a catholic, and an islamic suicide bomber blows himself up at a cafe in israel - what happens immediately upon his death? is he greeted by some kind of devil's assistant who shuffles him down some steps to his resting (burning?) place? is there some kind of mock courtroom procedure? how exactly do the next few hours unfold? is it really eternity?
i've always felt that if you were on fire for a few million years, it might lose its effect after awhile, but who really knows?
for those that do have an opinion, and have thought about it, i'd love for you to chime in.
for the record, i don't believe in the heaven/hell concept, and don't feel that we'll be judged the way most religions do. i'm open to the idea of some kind of afterlife, but trying to guess how it takes place is nothing more than a random guess. on the other hand, we could just become worm food and it's over.
Stanley1
6/13/2006, 04:13 PM
About the only thing I "know" is that you'll go before Jesus to be judged. After that, the "specifics" of how you get to Heaven/Hell, and exactly what it is like is unknown IMO.
slickdawg
6/13/2006, 04:15 PM
About the only thing I "know" is that you'll go before Jesus to be judged. After that, the "specifics" of how you get to Heaven/Hell, and exactly what it is like is unknown IMO.
Seconded.
I'd like to know the logistics.....like transportation costs. Who pays that??!!
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/13/2006, 04:18 PM
Will there be refreshments while we wait in line?
I tend to get thirsty.
Stanley1
6/13/2006, 04:18 PM
I'd like to know the logistics.....like transportation costs. Who pays that??!!
I imagine its like an all-inclusive resort.
At least, I hope it is.
colleyvillesooner
6/13/2006, 04:18 PM
It's probably a FOB kind of thing.
I imagine its like an all-inclusive resort.
At least, I hope it is.
So there will be a complimentary continental breakfast kind of thing?
colleyvillesooner
6/13/2006, 04:19 PM
Will there be refreshments while we wait in line?
I tend to get thirsty.
You'll be real thirsty where you're going.
swardboy
6/13/2006, 04:19 PM
Einstein said it best: Time is relative. Biblically speaking, time is a created dimension (out of eternity), which Einstein proved. My perspective is that when I die, I will simultaneously be in the presence of God along with every other human who has/will die. No need to be in a "holding tank." Because we will be "out" of time, and into eternity. From there, the separation of the saved and the lost will occur. Remember, we all want to shuffle to the "right", and not the left...the left is baaaad news.
JohnnyMack
6/13/2006, 04:19 PM
About the only thing I "know" is that you'll go before Jesus to be judged. After that, the "specifics" of how you get to Heaven/Hell, and exactly what it is like is unknown IMO.
So kinda like Night Court?
Stanley1
6/13/2006, 04:20 PM
So there will be a complimentary continental breakfast kind of thing?
Yes. And a buffet for lunch.
JohnnyMack
6/13/2006, 04:20 PM
Einstein said it best: Time is relative. Biblically speaking, time is a created dimension (out of eternity), which Einstein proved. My perspective is that when I die, I will simultaneously be in the presence of God along with every other human who has/will die. No need to be in a "holding tank." Because we will be "out" of time, and into eternity. From there, the separation of the saved and the lost will occur. Remember, we all want to shuffle to the "right", and not the left...the left is baaaad news.
Then why not just go ahead and die if that's the case?
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/13/2006, 04:21 PM
Einstein said it best: Time is relative. Biblically speaking, time is a created dimension (out of eternity), which Einstein proved. My perspective is that when I die, I will simultaneously be in the presence of God along with every other human who has/will die. No need to be in a "holding tank." Because we will be "out" of time, and into eternity. From there, the separation of the saved and the lost will occur. Remember, we all want to shuffle to the "right", and not the left...the left is baaaad news.
Yeah, but will we have something to drink?
Yes. And a buffet for lunch.
Sweet!
I'm pretty sure it's just like what happens in that movie, Ghost.
Stanley1
6/13/2006, 04:21 PM
So kinda like Night Court?
I never really watched that show. Sorry.
It seems like it would be hard to fiind people you know. Surely by now that have some kind of an elaborate paging system in place though.
Again, logistics.
Stanley1
6/13/2006, 04:22 PM
Yeah, but will we have something to drink?
Probably water and tea, along with cookies while you wait.
That'd be my guess anyhow.
JohnnyMack
6/13/2006, 04:23 PM
I never really watched that show. Sorry.
Kids today, I swear.
IronSooner
6/13/2006, 04:23 PM
I'd like to know the logistics.....like transportation costs. Who pays that??!!
If you go up it's like Vegas and you get comped. If you go down it's like China and your surviving family gets billed for the trouble.
GottaHavePride
6/13/2006, 04:23 PM
I'd like to know the logistics.....like transportation costs. Who pays that??!!
I hope you brought your wallet, 'cause the rent in Hell is paid in ADVANCE!
Scott D
6/13/2006, 04:23 PM
About the only thing I "know" is that you'll go before Jesus to be judged. After that, the "specifics" of how you get to Heaven/Hell, and exactly what it is like is unknown IMO.
time out..when did Saint Peter get his pink slip?
Stanley1
6/13/2006, 04:24 PM
It seems like it would be hard to fiind people you know. Surely by now that have some kind of an elaborate paging system in place though.
Again, logistics.
Again, just a thought, but I think once you enter Heaven/Hell, you are given a cell phone that has everybody that you have knowns number programmed.
I'ma call Howzit first thing, call him a Humper and stuff.
Soonrboy
6/13/2006, 04:24 PM
If it's heaven, they'll have a dr. pepper with sonic ice waiting for us.
Viking Kitten
6/13/2006, 04:24 PM
If we can be reincarnated, I specifically want to come back as one of Dean's bulls. I understand Dean takes special care of his bulls.
TexasLidig8r
6/13/2006, 04:24 PM
for the record, i don't believe in the heaven/hell concept, and don't feel that we'll be judged the way most religions do. i'm open to the idea of some kind of afterlife, but trying to guess how it takes place is nothing more than a random guess. on the other hand, we could just become worm food and it's over.
Oh, you are SO going to burn for all eternity in the fiery damnation that is.. hell.
Or Arkansas.. whichever.
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/13/2006, 04:24 PM
It seems like it would be hard to fiind people you know. Surely by now that have some kind of an elaborate paging system in place though.
Again, logistics.
Or maybe they give you one of those beepers dealies that light up when it's your turn?
Flagstaffsooner
6/13/2006, 04:24 PM
If you are real evil you will have to spend eternity here.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/15/missing.atheist/texas.camp.wood.austin.jpg
SoonerWood
6/13/2006, 04:25 PM
just take the red pill
If it's heaven, they'll have a dr. pepper with sonic ice waiting for us.
If you mean cherry vanilla dr. pepper then I'm in.
Again, just a thought, but I think once you enter Heaven/Hell, you are given a cell phone that has everybody that you have knowns number programmed.
I'ma call Howzit first thing, call him a Humper and stuff.
See, I knew they'd have something in place. I wonder who the carrier is? I'd like to have been the guy to score that contract.
**** yeah!!
Or maybe they give you one of those beepers dealies that light up when it's your turn?
I knew it, just when I came in here to take a leak!!
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/13/2006, 04:28 PM
I wonder if they move you to the front of the line if you die in some kind of heinous manner.
Like I don't wanna stand next to that Al Queda dude that just got blasted for very long. We might get in a fight in line and I don't wanna lose my place. Plus, he looked messy.
Tear Down This Wall
6/13/2006, 04:28 PM
Pre-crucifixion:
Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Post-crucifixion...I guess we'll find out. According to the Revelation to John, it will go down something like this:
Revelation 20 & 21:1-8
Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21
The New Jerusalem
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
I wonder if they move you to the front of the line if you die in some kind of heinous manner.
Like I don't wanna stand next to that Al Queda dude that just got blasted for very long. We might get in a fight in line and I don't wanna lose my place. Plus, he looked messy.
You know this has got to be a special kind of bureaucracy the likes of which we have never seen.
I've always thought that everyone has their own, individual Heaven. It is full of all of the things that bring you joy in your life on earth, and then some. It will be unimagineable bliss for eternity.
If you don't make it, I think there is nothing. I think you simply cease to be. Nothing. No emotion. No thought. No anything.
Kind of like going to a game at DKR.
PDXsooner
6/13/2006, 04:39 PM
how many "bull" references do youngsters miss nowadays?
Soonrboy
6/13/2006, 04:40 PM
but what if you are a part of someone else's heaven, do you get a backstage pass?
but what if you are a part of someone else's heaven, do you get a backstage pass?
I think the answers can be found in Carrie Underwood's Inside Your Heaven.
Hey, it's HEAVEN. I'm sure that I'll have folks in mine that have their own gig going on. I don't think you are divided into parts, but rather you are in all pertinent places at all times.
Oh, and I think you can watch your living relatives masturbate.
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/13/2006, 04:57 PM
Oh, and I think you can watch your living relatives masturbate.
This would be h3ll, right?
:mack:
This would be h3ll, right?
:mack:
Get it Aunt Gertie, get it!!
PDXsooner
6/13/2006, 04:58 PM
I've always thought that everyone has their own, individual Heaven. It is full of all of the things that bring you joy in your life on earth, and then some. It will be unimagineable bliss for eternity.
If you don't make it, I think there is nothing. I think you simply cease to be. Nothing. No emotion. No thought. No anything.
Kind of like going to a game at DKR.
this is probably closest to what i believe. neither one is too bad. if you end up being worm food, you won't be able to think about it being bad.
StoopTroup
6/13/2006, 04:59 PM
HEAVEN
http://community.iexplore.com/photos/journal_photos/Pinehurst(4).jpg
HELL
http://www.homeatfirst.com/images/StGeorgesBunker.jpg
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/13/2006, 05:00 PM
Get it Aunt Gertie, get it!!
Interesting...Uncle Rob uses bacon grease.
Who knew?
Soonrboy
6/13/2006, 05:00 PM
I think the answers can be found in Carrie Underwood's Inside Your Heaven.
Oh yeah, she'll be in my heaven.
walkoffsooner
6/13/2006, 05:01 PM
If you are wondering god may be talking to you.Find a church and talk to them about it.:)
Soonrboy
6/13/2006, 05:02 PM
get it gertie...omg
gig 'em
Oldnslo
6/13/2006, 05:03 PM
Rabbi Sherman says:
Hell is where you're seated at a huge wonderful buffet. Except you've got huge spoons attached to your hands so big that you cant use them to eat with.
Heaven is the same way, just that the people there use the spoons to feed one another.
FWIW, Jews aren't so sure that there is a Hell.
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/13/2006, 05:04 PM
Holy smokes - I know now how Cousin Gary got carpal tunnel.
:les: HE'S LIKE A MACHINE!
Stanley1
6/13/2006, 05:05 PM
HELL
http://www.homeatfirst.com/images/StGeorgesBunker.jpg
I think I've been in hell a few too many times. :O
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/13/2006, 05:08 PM
OMG, Pat.
Your Mom is a filthy woman...
OCUDad
6/13/2006, 05:10 PM
Have you considered the possibility that you are already dead and living in Heaven or Hell? Or worse than Hell -- New Jersey? What guarantee do you have that this isn't the second (or third, or fourth...) time around for you?
NormanPride
6/13/2006, 05:10 PM
I've often thought eternal torment is a stiff penalty for just messing up in the < 100 years you spend here, but I'm a big softie.
JohnnyMack
6/13/2006, 05:17 PM
New Jersey gets a bum rap. I'd say top to bottom it's got as many nice places and as many ****ty places as Oklahoma.
I'm a Christian, and I don't believe in the pagan teachings of the immortal soul. What good is a resserrection if we already have an immortal soul? Despite the parable that Wall posted, the wages of sin is in fact death. The immortal soul was a teaching of the Dark Age Catholic Church, and should have been tossed aside during the Reformation. Every word 'Hell' in the Bible is translated from a completely different noun - like sheol, hades (grave), gehenna (trash dump), etc
I also don't believe in Satan's first lie:
"Ye shall surely not die..."
http://members.aol.com/wrobert777/church2.html
Read the whole thing if you want to prove beyond a doubt that Hell is man made and not from God.
Jesus died for our sins, He wasn't tormented in Hell forever. Besides, I doubt God will sustain people forever (share his sole immortality, and only God is immortal- your Bible says so) so he can torment them "to his good pleasure." Who benefits from most of mankind being tormented forever? Only God could. It's out of character- He's not Zeus. Death is the eternal punishment.
fadada1
6/13/2006, 05:20 PM
i think it'd be funny, if all the funny crap we think about happening (buffet for breakfast, refreshments in line, etc...) actually does happen. what a hoot. there'd be a SF.com line where we could all laugh about this exact subject.
GottaHavePride
6/13/2006, 05:23 PM
Hmmm. Or it's possible that your own consciousness as an idividual entity is only possible by separating yourself from the rest of the universe (see, the whole matter = energy duality, matter is just another way energy can express itself, etc. etc.) So when you die your individual consciousness dsappears and you return to oneness with the rest of the universe, making any concepts of heaven and hell meaningless.
Or something. I just tend to spout alternative theories at times like this.
NormanPride
6/13/2006, 05:24 PM
"Dude, do you remember that thread? I was so right!"
"Does that mean BSG is looking at my relatives get freaky with themselves? 'Cause that's sick."
PDXsooner
6/13/2006, 05:27 PM
I'm a Christian, and I don't believe in the pagan teachings of the immortal soul. What good is a resserrection if we already have an immortal soul? Despite the parable that Wall posted, the wages of sin is in fact death. The immortal soul was a teaching of the Dark Age Catholic Church, and should have been tossed aside during the Reformation. Every word 'Hell' in the Bible is translated from a completely different noun - like sheol, hades (grave), gehenna (trash dump), etc
I also don't believe in Satan's first lie:
"Ye shall surely not die..."
http://members.aol.com/wrobert777/church2.html
Read the whole thing if you want to prove beyond a doubt that Hell is man made and not from God.
Jesus died for our sins, He wasn't tormented in Hell forever. Besides, I doubt God will sustain people forever (share his sole immortality, and only God is immortal- your Bible says so) so he can torment them "to his good pleasure." Who benefits from most of mankind being tormented forever? Only God could. It's out of character- He's not Zeus. Death is the eternal punishment.
interesting, thanks for the serious response. i don't subscribe to christian teachings as a whole. but i do find it interesting to learn about it.
fadada1
6/13/2006, 05:28 PM
more for you golf enthusiasts - hell's half acre at pine valley:
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/8239/pinevalley050044xp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
fadada1
6/13/2006, 05:29 PM
HOLY ****!!!!
sorry about the size of that pic!!!!!
MamaMia
6/13/2006, 05:43 PM
I do not believe that there will be a suffering place called "Hell", but instead that really bad sinners are just dead, no more, gone, poof!
Heaven is whatever you want and you can visit God, Jesus, all the saints, all the famous Sooners and people who lived during different times. You can also visit with all your loved ones, all whom also have their own Heavens. If you want to share your Heavens with each other, thats okay; if not...thats okay too. You have to be nice all the time though, so ya'll better start practicing. ;)
StoopTroup
6/13/2006, 05:47 PM
If your nice...do you have to be gay too?
MamaMia
6/13/2006, 06:02 PM
HOLY ****!!!!
sorry about the size of that pic!!!!!Its probably not good karma to swear in a thread about Heaven and Hell. :D
Oh, and free photo resizing is your friend. ;) http://bigwebpages.com/big/resize.html
IB4OU2
6/13/2006, 07:08 PM
Hmmm. Or it's possible that your own consciousness as an idividual entity is only possible by separating yourself from the rest of the universe (see, the whole matter = energy duality, matter is just another way energy can express itself, etc. etc.) So when you die your individual consciousness dsappears and you return to oneness with the rest of the universe, making any concepts of heaven and hell meaningless.
Or something. I just tend to spout alternative theories at times like this.
Possibly GHP, that reminds me of the song, 'Dust in the Wind' by Kansas.
Einstein said it best: Time is relative. Biblically speaking, time is a created dimension (out of eternity), which Einstein proved. My perspective is that when I die, I will simultaneously be in the presence of God along with every other human who has/will die. No need to be in a "holding tank." Because we will be "out" of time, and into eternity. From there, the separation of the saved and the lost will occur. Remember, we all want to shuffle to the "right", and not the left...the left is baaaad news.
Ummm, not to be nitpicky or anything, but what you have said has nothing to do with what Einstien said about time.
proud gonzo
6/13/2006, 10:58 PM
How exactly is the whole fire and pain thing supposed to work if you have no body?
C&CDean
6/13/2006, 11:05 PM
How exactly is the whole fire and pain thing supposed to work if you have no body?
Or in your case, no booty.:eddie:
picasso
6/13/2006, 11:11 PM
I think hell is less of a fire and demon type place and more of a place that is without God. as bad as this world is, and as bad as you can be as a person, God is still here available for you. All you have to do is ask him in.
hell on the other hand = no God to be found. forever.
proud gonzo
6/13/2006, 11:22 PM
I'm kind of okay with that.
C&CDean
6/13/2006, 11:23 PM
I'm kind of okay with that.
Yeah, me too. Oh wait, you meant Picasso's deal.....
proud gonzo
6/13/2006, 11:25 PM
you better be talking about the yarr pirate sort of booty :mad:
:rolleyes: :D
picasso
6/13/2006, 11:27 PM
I'm kind of okay with that.
in a world of darkness with no light or love of God?
I'll pass.
usmc-sooner
6/13/2006, 11:29 PM
straight is the path and narrow the way
nothing in nature suggests it will be any other way.
If it were easy we'd all be there
proud gonzo
6/13/2006, 11:31 PM
in a world of darkness with no light or love of God?
I'll pass.
I guess I figure if you can't find a little light on your own God's not gonna do you much good anyway.
usmc-sooner
6/13/2006, 11:37 PM
I guess I figure if you can't find a little light on your own God's not gonna do you much good anyway.
that's the whole point without God there is no light
proud gonzo
6/13/2006, 11:41 PM
that's the whole point without God there is no light
so i've heard. I don't buy it, no offense ;)
usmc-sooner
6/13/2006, 11:47 PM
so i've heard. I don't buy it, no offense ;)
so read the Bible and tell me what part you have a problem with.
Its kinda wierd that people who don't believe in the Bible want the rules of the Bible to rule the land.
I think the good will be rewarded and the bad punished.
Sooner Born Sooner Bred
6/13/2006, 11:49 PM
My grandpa's first wife died when she was quite young. Then he married my grandma. They were married about 20 years then he died. My grandma never remarried. So I wonder if he is hooked up with both of them in heaven now.
usmc-sooner
6/13/2006, 11:53 PM
My grandpa's first wife died when she was quite young. Then he married my grandma. They were married about 20 years then he died. My grandma never remarried. So I wonder if he is hooked up with both of them in heaven now.
sometimes I wonder about dinosaurs, but I don't let is shake my belief.
:D
proud gonzo
6/14/2006, 12:07 AM
so read the Bible and tell me what part you have a problem with.
Its kinda wierd that people who don't believe in the Bible want the rules of the Bible to rule the land.
I think the good will be rewarded and the bad punished.
there are a lot of books that say things like that
GottaHavePride
6/14/2006, 12:42 AM
there are a lot of books that say things like that
Like, f'r example, Chapter 8 of the Tao Te Ching:
The highest good is like water.
Water gives life to the ten thousand things and does not strive.
It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao.
In dwelling, be close to the land.
In meditation, go deep in the heart.
In dealing with others, be gentle and kind.
In speech, be true.
In ruling, be just.
In business, be competent.
In action, watch the timing.
No fight: No blame.
picasso
6/14/2006, 10:04 AM
http://www.sunrisetradingco.com/images/Black%20Elk%20Speaks.jpg
This is a great book about the life of Lakota Holy Man Black Elk.
During his youth he has profound visions of the world beyond ours that change his life forever. He was a man during the time of the Indian Wars and was present at the death of Custer.
In his older years he had 2 more vivid visions in which he died and traveled to land where people were happy and food and provisions were plentiful. he was told by 2 people it was not yet time to meet his father.
In his next vision he returned: "The they led me to the center of the circle where once more I saw a holy tree all full of leaves and blooming.
But that was not all I saw. Against a tree there was a man standing with arms held wide in front of him. I looked hard at him, and I could not tell what people he came from. He was not a Wasichu and he was not Indian. His hair was long and hanging loose, and on the left side of his head he wore an eagle feather.
While I was staring at him, his body began to change and became very beautiful with all colors of light, and around him there was light. He spoke like singing: "My life is such that all earthly beings and growing things belong to me. Your father, the Great Spirit, has said this."
On his way back he saw this: There was a fearful dark river that I had to go over, and I was afraid. It rushed a roared and was full of angry foam. Then I looked down and saw many men and women who were trying to cross the dark and fearful river, but they could not. Weeping, they looked up to me and cried: "Help us!"
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/14/2006, 10:06 AM
That's beautiful.
And also, PAY-OTEE.
JohnnyMack
6/14/2006, 10:09 AM
In his next vision he returned: "The they led me to the center of the circle where once more I saw a holy tree all full of leaves and blooming.
But that was not all I saw. Against a tree there was a man standing with arms held wide in front of him. I looked hard at him, and I could not tell what people he came from. He was not a Wasichu and he was not Indian. His hair was long and hanging loose, and on the left side of his head he wore an eagle feather.
While I was staring at him, his body began to change and became very beautiful with all colors of light, and around him there was light. He spoke like singing: "My life is such that all earthly beings and growing things belong to me. Your father, the Great Spirit, has said this."
On his way back he saw this: There was a fearful dark river that I had to go over, and I was afraid. It rushed a roared and was full of angry foam. Then I looked down and saw many men and women who were trying to cross the dark and fearful river, but they could not. Weeping, they looked up to me and cried: "Help us!"
The notion of an afterlife dates back for many thousands of years across a broad spectrum of cultures. The Christian notion of an afterlife isn't all that different from any other religion.
picasso
6/14/2006, 10:17 AM
That's beautiful.
And also, PAY-OTEE.
no no, that came later. Peyote was not part of traditional Lakota life.
they got their visions by fasting and praying.
and I do realize that JM. I just thought his visions sounded much like something biblical. and from a guy who never read the bible.
he said in the good world everyone was the same age and that last vision sounded an awful lot like a certain river.;)
JohnnyMack
6/14/2006, 10:18 AM
and that last vision sounded an awful lot like a certain river.;)
I have a houseboat down on that river awaiting my arrival.
:texan:
Tear Down This Wall
6/14/2006, 10:18 AM
My grandpa's first wife died when she was quite young. Then he married my grandma. They were married about 20 years then he died. My grandma never remarried. So I wonder if he is hooked up with both of them in heaven now.
Jesus already covered this years ago...as He did with the whole Heaven and Hell issue:
Matthew 22:23-32
Marriage at the Resurrection
23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24"Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
I figured they'd have websites by now, that's one reason I'm skeptical.
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/14/2006, 10:23 AM
no no, that came later. Peyote was not part of traditional Lakota life.
they got their visions by fasting and praying.
I was just funnin, pic.
Actually, I think our Native American friends have the most healthy and 'pretty' way of dealing with and approaching death. They don't see it as a horrible thing - it's just the 'next' thing.
A few weeks ago there were posts about a Native American soldier's funeral and it really made me go...'dang'. Very different. And very...neat.
I was just funnin, pic.
Actually, I think our Native American friends have the most healthy and 'pretty' way of dealing with and approaching death. They don't see it as a horrible thing - it's just the 'next' thing.
A few weeks ago there were posts about a Native American soldier's funeral and it really made me go...'dang'. Very different. And very...neat.
Sorry, we all still feel like you're a bigot.
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/14/2006, 10:26 AM
Sorry, we all still feel like you're a bigot.
Hush, filthy German.
:les: VESSEL!!!
picasso
6/14/2006, 10:29 AM
I have a houseboat down on that river awaiting my arrival.
:texan:
without holes or leaks right?
Hamhock
6/14/2006, 10:55 AM
sometimes I wonder about dinosaurs, but I don't let is shake my belief.
:D
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp
proud gonzo
6/14/2006, 12:44 PM
I guess God must have created retards right along with the dinosaurs 6000 years ago. :rolleyes: that site makes my head hurt.
Hamhock
6/14/2006, 01:02 PM
I guess God must have created retards right along with the dinosaurs 6000 years ago. :rolleyes: that site makes my head hurt.
What specifically is retarded about it?
JohnnyMack
6/14/2006, 01:42 PM
Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark? Cool.
PDXsooner
6/14/2006, 01:46 PM
they're saying dinosaurs lived a few thousand years ago, and not millions. they're questioning scientists and their explanation of how old the bones are. that's pretty funny.
dinosaurs are really a thorn in the side for people who take the bible as pure truth...
Hamhock
6/14/2006, 01:51 PM
they're saying dinosaurs lived a few thousand years ago, and not millions. they're questioning scientists and their explanation of how old the bones are. that's pretty funny.
dinosaurs are really a thorn in the side for people who take the bible as pure truth...
The guy uses a lot of science. Do you dispute any of his facts?
PDXsooner
6/14/2006, 02:25 PM
The guy uses a lot of science. Do you dispute any of his facts?
well, i'm not a scientist, so when it comes to carbon-dating bones i don't really have a choice but to take the word of scientists and bone-dating specialists.
and with that being said, i'll take the opinions of MOST of the experts over the years, and ones that seek simply to find the truth as opposed to that of a scientist with a specific agenda, or a christian scientist who goes in with the mentality that his conclusions have to make sense as it relates to the bible.
Hamhock
6/14/2006, 02:38 PM
well, i'm not a scientist, so when it comes to carbon-dating bones i don't really have a choice but to take the word of scientists and bone-dating specialists.
and with that being said, i'll take the opinions of MOST of the experts over the years, and ones that seek simply to find the truth as opposed to that of a scientist with a specific agenda, or a Christian scientist who goes in with the mentality that his conclusions have to make sense as it relates to the bible.
Good point, because most of the scientists to which you refer do not have a specific agenda of proving evolution. :rolleyes:
Also, I seriously doubt you can find a single scientist that claims carbon dating is accurate for dinosaurs. I believe your idea that "most of the experts" and "bone-dating specialists" believe carbon dating is accurate for dinosaurs is wrong. But what do I know, I'm just a Christian with the inability for objective thinking.
JohnnyMack
6/14/2006, 02:42 PM
The Christian notion that theirs is the only history/timeline that matters is fun for me.
the guy may 'use' a lot of science, but he doesn't seem to understand any of it. He implies that dino's walked the earth with man, and were fossilized due to noah's flood. that argument fails when one takes stratification into account. If creatures of the flood were strewen about by the waters, one would expect to find human fossils in the same strata as dinosaur fossils, and likely not too far away from them either. However, to date, no human fossils have been found in strata anywhere near dinosaur fossils, nor in strata below dinosaur fossils, as would be expected from his arguments. Regardless of anyones opinion on the accuracy of various dating techniques, his claim that dinosaurs walked the earth with man is roundly rejected by stratification, and is very solid evidence that dinosaurs preceeded man.
edit: I just saw some of his claims to the contrary, and they are, for lack of a better word, weak. He attempts to extrapolate small discrepancies in human artifact strata (which sit well above dinosaur strata) all the way down to the dinosaur strata, which is a very large stretch...
IB4OU2
6/14/2006, 03:01 PM
the guy may 'use' a lot of science, but he doesn't seem to understand any of it. He implies that dino's walked the earth with man, and were fossilized due to noah's flood. that argument fails when one takes stratification into account. If creatures of the flood were strewen about by the waters, one would expect to find human fossils in the same strata as dinosaur fossils, and likely not too far away from them either. However, to date, no human fossils have been found in strata anywhere near dinosaur fossils, nor in strata below dinosaur fossils, as would be expected from his arguments. Regardless of anyones opinion on the accuracy of various dating techniques, his claim that dinosaurs walked the earth with man is roundly rejected by stratification, and is very solid evidence that dinosaurs preceeded man.
edit: I just saw some of his claims to the contrary, and they are, for lack of a better word, week. He attempts to extrapolate small discrepancies in human artifact strata (which sit well above dinosaur strata) all the way down to the dinosaur strata, which is a very large stretch...
But what about the coprolite found down by Deans old outhouse?
Hamhock
6/14/2006, 03:12 PM
the guy may 'use' a lot of science, but he doesn't seem to understand any of it. He implies that dino's walked the earth with man, and were fossilized due to noah's flood. that argument fails when one takes stratification into account. If creatures of the flood were strewen about by the waters, one would expect to find human fossils in the same strata as dinosaur fossils, and likely not too far away from them either. However, to date, no human fossils have been found in strata anywhere near dinosaur fossils, nor in strata below dinosaur fossils, as would be expected from his arguments. Regardless of anyones opinion on the accuracy of various dating techniques, his claim that dinosaurs walked the earth with man is roundly rejected by stratification, and is very solid evidence that dinosaurs preceeded man.
edit: I just saw some of his claims to the contrary, and they are, for lack of a better word, weak. He attempts to extrapolate small discrepancies in human artifact strata (which sit well above dinosaur strata) all the way down to the dinosaur strata, which is a very large stretch...
I'm not saying I buy-in, wholesale, to what the guy is saying, I just find it disappointing that the open-minded intellects of the SO would dismiss him simply because he is a man of faith.
I'm not saying I buy-in, wholesale, to what the guy is saying, I just find it disappointing that the open-minded intellects of the SO would dismiss him simply because he is a man of faith.
I don't dismiss him because he is a man of faith. I dismiss him because he dismisses evolution because it's speculative (which is fine, because there is some amount of speculation there), but then proceeds to turn around and offer up as 'truth' a theory that is orders of magnitude MORE speculative than evolution, with weak evidence to back it up. That is why I dismiss him.
If he wants to say that dinosaurs walked the earth with man, thats fine with me, but PROOVE IT! Instead, he repunches the same tired holes in evolution that everyone already knows about, and then only claims that his theory solves those problems. If he wants to convince everyone, he should stop talking about evolution altogether and lay out the evidence (of which there is little) that back up his claims.
MamaMia
6/14/2006, 03:59 PM
If there was a Big Bang, then God must of caused it. He also could have made the dinosaurs.
Flagstaffsooner
6/14/2006, 04:10 PM
Heaven is holding a ticket in you hand on a mild Autum day as you cross the campus with the newly fallen leaves under your feet.
Hell is these eight months without Sooner Football.
PDXsooner
6/14/2006, 05:08 PM
Good point, because most of the scientists to which you refer do not have a specific agenda of proving evolution. :rolleyes:
Also, I seriously doubt you can find a single scientist that claims carbon dating is accurate for dinosaurs. I believe your idea that "most of the experts" and "bone-dating specialists" believe carbon dating is accurate for dinosaurs is wrong. But what do I know, I'm just a Christian with the inability for objective thinking.
i wonder why there wasn't much talk amongst people about dinosaurs before the bone discoveries in the 1800's.
JohnnyMack
6/14/2006, 05:10 PM
i wonder why there wasn't much talk amongst people about dinosaurs before the bone discoveries in the 1800's.
Wouldn't there be more historical documentation passed down about these magnificent beasts?
GottaHavePride
6/14/2006, 05:27 PM
Wouldn't there be more historical documentation passed down about these magnificent beasts?
[Bill Hicks] I mean, if the world's 12,000 years old and the Bible covers all of it, why didn't someone bring up dinosaurs? You'd think someone would've brought that up somewhere in the book...
And Jesus and his disciples walked down the path towards Nazareth, but oh, the path was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw.
And the disciples did run a screaming "What a big f***ing lizard!"
"I'm sure going to mention this in my book," said Luke...[/Bill Hicks]
Soonrboy
6/14/2006, 07:13 PM
Hey, maybe God made fossils just to give us all something to talk about, give people jobs, etc..He's sitting back laughing...Sounds like something fun to do if you were omniscient and all powerful and stuff.
Newbomb Turk
6/14/2006, 08:00 PM
I've always thought that everyone has their own, individual Heaven. It is full of all of the things that bring you joy in your life on earth, and then some. It will be unimagineable bliss for eternity.
So will I get to do the "bad" joyful things? :O
if the waiting line is BYOB, I hope their is a beer barn close...
TUSooner
6/14/2006, 08:20 PM
This may already have been mentioned (read my sig).
I once head about a near-death experience that was not the usual "I saw a light" thing. A guy was saying that he had "died" and that he found himself in the company of some people or beings that he did not want to be around. He didn't know where they were trying to take him, but he knew he did not want to go with them.
Just sayin'
Octavian
6/14/2006, 08:34 PM
Heaven is holding a ticket in you hand on a mild Autum day as you cross the campus with the newly fallen leaves under your feet.
If this scenario has hawt girls all around too then that's what I'd take.
What about extraterrestrials? Where do they go and how do they fit in?
I dunno, this thread has just about everything else, just needed some aliens too. ;)
PDXsooner
6/14/2006, 10:58 PM
Wouldn't there be more historical documentation passed down about these magnificent beasts?
very well said, and funny.
C&CDean
6/14/2006, 11:40 PM
Here's the deal. You choose to thumb your nose at God. BFD. Just don't be whining like a bitch when Satan has your narrow *** by the nose and leads you into the lake of fire. Or the river of despair. Or the really ****ty hood. Or wherever Satan takes your sinful butt.
I'm just barely smart enough to realize that there's probably an "afterlife" that is probably determined by your current life. I would never be stupid enough to claim I know what it is, and how it's going down - especially by trying to interpret the Bible. Way too many dildoes already doing that.
I just ain't taking chances. I'm a sinner, but I'll be damned if I'm stupid enough to thumb my nose at God. Therefore, I believe. What harm does it do?
olevetonahill
6/15/2006, 12:11 AM
Any one with an ounce of sense can look out thier window and see a creation :D Who or what created it is another ?
Yall Bible folks and or evolutionists . The Bible says In Genisis "these are the Generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens ,
My ? is Back then when a dude lived a 1000 yrs . what the hell was a generation ? 6 days ?
God may have taken a 1000 yrs to do a day . Or a million :eek:
There is a Creator . But we as peons aint gonna Kbnow him /Her / It :cool:
PDXsooner
6/15/2006, 12:27 AM
Therefore, I believe. What harm does it do?
makes you a *****?
BlondeSoonerGirl
6/15/2006, 09:21 AM
if the waiting line is BYOB, I hope their is a beer barn close...
Dude, you're on to something here...
I'mmina get me a big 'ol tub, fill it with ice and beer and makes me some money while I'm in line.
Then I'll use that cash to buy an air conditioner. It's gonna be hot were I'm going...:mack:
soonervegas
6/15/2006, 09:30 AM
I just ain't taking chances. I'm a sinner, but I'll be damned if I'm stupid enough to thumb my nose at God. Therefore, I believe. What harm does it do?
I agree with Dean on this one. I have struggled with the Bible and it's accuracy for years. (For instance, I do not believe the world was built in 7 literal days) I do think it is ALSO short sighted to totally to dismiss God altogether. I know that Jesus was a pretty smart dude and was pretty hip on how to lead a productive and meaningful life....so I am trying to do what he said. Like Dean said, what harm does it do?
PDXsooner
6/15/2006, 10:30 AM
I agree with Dean on this one. I have struggled with the Bible and it's accuracy for years. (For instance, I do not believe the world was built in 7 literal days) I do think it is ALSO short sighted to totally to dismiss God altogether. I know that Jesus was a pretty smart dude and was pretty hip on how to lead a productive and meaningful life....so I am trying to do what he said. Like Dean said, what harm does it do?
there is a clear difference between dismissing religion and dismissing god. "thumbing your nose" at religion is not the same as "thumbing your nose" at god. not even close.
also, believing something because you're fearful of what will happen if you don't isn't really believing, is it?
Hamhock
6/15/2006, 10:48 AM
there is a clear difference between dismissing religion and dismissing god. "thumbing your nose" at religion is not the same as "thumbing your nose" at god. not even close.
also, believing something because you're fearful of what will happen if you don't isn't really believing, is it?
I agree. Much more religion should have noses thumbed at it.
Also, people speak of believing because they're fearful of what MAY happen. That's called hedging your bet. Christ himself spoke on this. It's called being luke warm. If you believe on Christ, then your life should reflect it. If you believe the Christ of the Bible, then that belief should manifest itself in dying daily to self in an effort to bring glory to God. Paul called himself a bond-servant.
Christ/salvation is not a rabbit's foot you bury in your pocket in case you get in trouble or a get-out-of-jail-free card you hang on to just in case there really is some truth to this afterlife stuff.
I actually respect those of you who unashamedly reject the claims of the Bible and Jesus. At least people know where you stand.
mdklatt
6/15/2006, 10:51 AM
I do think it is ALSO short sighted to totally to dismiss God altogether. I know that Jesus was a pretty smart dude and was pretty hip on how to lead a productive and meaningful life....so I am trying to do what he said.
I can agree with all of this, but...
what harm does it do?
Don't you think God can tell the difference between the true believers and people who are just playing along to cover their bases? For example, I would never join a church "just in case", because I think that's disrespectful. What matters is what kind of person you are, and dropping a few dollars into the collection plate every week isn't going to fool God.
JohnnyMack
6/15/2006, 10:54 AM
also, believing something because you're fearful of what will happen if you don't isn't really believing, is it?
I think that's why the old testament became so ineffective and the wrathful, angry God was replaced with more of a kind and loving everyman that people could relate to and emulate.
StoopTroup
6/15/2006, 10:57 AM
What matters is what kind of person you are, and dropping a few dollars into the collection plate every week isn't going to fool God.
True, however if you are only really bad from time to time and not so perfect that you don't need to clutter up your life with Church riftraft...who aren't like you...
Well...it's probably good to attend. ;)
C&CDean
6/15/2006, 11:04 AM
there is a clear difference between dismissing religion and dismissing god. "thumbing your nose" at religion is not the same as "thumbing your nose" at god. not even close.
also, believing something because you're fearful of what will happen if you don't isn't really believing, is it?
Dude, you're so far off base it's laughable.
Watch a sunrise. Watch a sunset. A rainbow. A baby being born. An old person dying. The Grand Canyon. A flock of turkeys in the field. A mountain stream. The food chain.
If you're stupid enough to believe it just all "is" then you're simply stupid. At least as stupid as the people who think they really know how it's all going down based on their interpretation of the Bible.
I'm just smart enough to believe that I don't know the real answer/s, and only will when I croak. I believe the whole eco-system/universe is too perfect to simply be random. I believe in a divine creator. I believe He is God. I believe he sent his only son to die for our sins. I really can't get involved in how He was conceived, etc. Because to do so is simply speculative mental masturbation. And there's way too many people already doing that anyhow.
So, I believe. In God. Organized religion? Not so much. But I'd never just sit back and think my pathetic human mind could figure any of it out. So, like I said, people like you who think science/man is capable of "figuring it all out" are simply thumbing your nose at God.
homerSimpsonsBrain
6/15/2006, 11:06 AM
... A flock of turkeys in the field. .....
Watching OSU play football does not inspire me to belief :eddie:
JohnnyMack
6/15/2006, 11:09 AM
I thought for a second there :dean: was gonna start singing "Circle of Life".
IB4OU2
6/15/2006, 11:19 AM
Dude, you're so far off base it's laughable.
Watch a sunrise. Watch a sunset. A rainbow. A baby being born. An old person dying. The Grand Canyon. A flock of turkeys in the field. A mountain stream. The food chain.
If you're stupid enough to believe it just all "is" then you're simply stupid. At least as stupid as the people who think they really know how it's all going down based on their interpretation of the Bible.
I'm just smart enough to believe that I don't know the real answer/s, and only will when I croak. I believe the whole eco-system/universe is too perfect to simply be random. I believe in a divine creator. I believe He is God. I believe he sent his only son to die for our sins. I really can't get involved in how He was conceived, etc. Because to do so is simply speculative mental masturbation. And there's way too many people already doing that anyhow.
So, I believe. In God. Organized religion? Not so much. But I'd never just sit back and think my pathetic human mind could figure any of it out. So, like I said, people like you who think science/man is capable of "figuring it all out" are simply thumbing your nose at God.
Amen! Sitting still for a few minutes outside day or night and watching the world the Good Lord provided us without fear or speculation confirms my faith daily. :)
PDXsooner
6/15/2006, 11:33 AM
Dude, you're so far off base it's laughable.
Watch a sunrise. Watch a sunset. A rainbow. A baby being born. An old person dying. The Grand Canyon. A flock of turkeys in the field. A mountain stream. The food chain.
If you're stupid enough to believe it just all "is" then you're simply stupid. At least as stupid as the people who think they really know how it's all going down based on their interpretation of the Bible.
I'm just smart enough to believe that I don't know the real answer/s, and only will when I croak. I believe the whole eco-system/universe is too perfect to simply be random. I believe in a divine creator. I believe He is God. I believe he sent his only son to die for our sins. I really can't get involved in how He was conceived, etc. Because to do so is simply speculative mental masturbation. And there's way too many people already doing that anyhow.
So, I believe. In God. Organized religion? Not so much. But I'd never just sit back and think my pathetic human mind could figure any of it out. So, like I said, people like you who think science/man is capable of "figuring it all out" are simply thumbing your nose at God.
do you actually read posts before you start crafting witty responses? you're basically reinforcing what i said in my post.
i believe in a higher power. call it god if you want. i think trying to define it or figure it out is a waste of time.
Sometimes when I take a wicked growlah, I believe in an unholy power.
C&CDean
6/15/2006, 11:51 AM
do you actually read posts before you start crafting witty responses? you're basically reinforcing what i said in my post.
i believe in a higher power. call it god if you want. i think trying to define it or figure it out is a waste of time.
Oh. Then why didn't you say so? I thought you were too busy making fun of people who do believe.
soonervegas
6/15/2006, 11:52 AM
I can agree with all of this, but...
Don't you think God can tell the difference between the true believers and people who are just playing along to cover their bases? For example, I would never join a church "just in case", because I think that's disrespectful. What matters is what kind of person you are, and dropping a few dollars into the collection plate every week isn't going to fool God.
Absolutely he can....but that person's actions still do not harm anyone except themselves. I agree that "just in case" will not work if you are attempting to get into heaven.
mdklatt
6/15/2006, 12:12 PM
but that person's actions still do not harm anyone except themselves.
It might not beharmful, but if you're being insincere about a religion it's disrespectful to those who really do believe.
(Not to go off on a tangent, but I think a lot of church leaders couldn't care less as long as they're getting butts in the pews.)
C&CDean
6/15/2006, 12:19 PM
It might not beharmful, but if you're being insincere about a religion it's disrespectful to those who really do believe.
(Not to go off on a tangent, but I think a lot of church leaders couldn't care less as long as they're getting bucks in the offering plate)
Fixed.
Sometimes when I take a wicked growlah, I believe in an unholy power.
quality imput on the discussion.
:D
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