View Full Version : A deserved PG rating??
Sooner in Tampa
6/8/2006, 06:27 AM
:eek: I am absolutely shocked at the MPAA's answer and justification (http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=RELIGION-FAITH-06-07-06)for this...well maybe not shocked, it is Hollywierd afterall
"What the MPAA said is that the movie contained strong 'thematic elements' that might disturb some parents," said Kris Fuhr, vice president for marketing at Provident Films, which is owned by Sony Pictures. Provident plans to open the film next fall in 380 theaters nationwide with the help of Samuel Goldwyn Films, which has worked with indie movies like "The Squid and the Whale."
Which "thematic elements" earned this squeaky-clean movie its PG? "Facing the Giants" is too evangelistic.
But the scene that caught the MPAA's attention may have been the chat between football coach Grant Taylor _ played by Alex Kendrick _ and a rich brat named Matt Prader. The coach says that he needs to stop bad-mouthing his bossy father and get right with God.
The boy replies: "You really believe in all that honoring God and following Jesus stuff? ... Well, I ain't trying to be disrespectful, but not everybody believes in that."
The coach replies: "Matt, nobody's forcing anything on you. Following Jesus Christ is the decision that you're going to have to make for yourself. You may not want to accept it, because it'll change your life. You'll never be the same." That kind of talk may be too blunt for some moviegoers, :( said Kendrick, but that's the way real people actually talk in Christian high schools in Georgia. Sherwood Baptist isn't going to apologize for making the kinds of movies that it wants to make.
Now it is too blunt to talk about religion in movies :(
Scott D
6/8/2006, 07:38 AM
:eek: I am absolutely shocked at the MPAA's answer and justification (http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=RELIGION-FAITH-06-07-06)for this...well maybe not shocked, it is Hollywierd afterall
Now it is too blunt to talk about religion in movies :(
Which movie would you have considered to be more deserving of a PG rating, The first Mighty Ducks movie, or The Lion King?
Excellent! Our plan to overthrow Christianity through PG ratings is proceeding exactly as our Dark Master predicted!
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 09:04 AM
Now it is too blunt to talk about religion in movies :(
I can imagine all the Bible thumpers ****ting a squealing worm if this had been in the movie instead:
The coach replies: "Matt, nobody's forcing anything on you. Following Allah is the decision that you're going to have to make for yourself. You may not want to accept it, because it'll change your life. You'll never be the same."
What's the big deal about a PG rating anyway? People took their toddlers to see The Passion. :rolleyes:
nmsoonergirl
6/8/2006, 09:06 AM
Excellent! Our plan to overthrow Christianity through PG ratings is proceeding exactly as our Dark Master predicted!
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
You owe me a coffee. And maye a new computer screen.:D
JohnnyMack
6/8/2006, 09:18 AM
Excellent! Our plan to overthrow Christianity through PG ratings is proceeding exactly as our Dark Master predicted!
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Just wait until they see the power of our fully operational rating system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Osce0la
6/8/2006, 09:21 AM
Just wait until they see the power of our fully operational ranting system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That sounds about right ;)
Sooner in Tampa
6/8/2006, 09:30 AM
What's the big deal about a PG rating anyway? People took their toddlers to see The Passion. :rolleyes:First off...if someone took a toddler or ANYONE under the age of about 10 to see the Passion, that is on them. It was probably pretty inappropriate, but that is what parents are suppose to do, make a decision as to what movies their kids see.
Secondly...the reason that I find a PG rating a little...stupid...is because they are saying there is too much religion in the movie. This movie has too many wholesome messages for a kid to see it one their own :rolleyes:
JohnnyMack
6/8/2006, 09:33 AM
Maybe the subject matter is of too abstract a nature for a child to fully comprehend it?
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 09:39 AM
Secondly...the reason that I find a PG rating a little...stupid...is because they are saying there is too much religion in the movie.
Right...too much religion. Not too much Christianity. If there was a G-rated movie about Wicca the fundie Christian picket line would be around the block.
And OklahomaTuba would be posting links to the trailer as part of a viral marketing campaign.
if i had kids i think i would rather be the one to expose them to religious propaganda
at least with the rating parents might know what their kids are being exposed to
i love how Christians think their religion is right above all others and should get a free pass in any situation
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 09:49 AM
Movie ratings are pretty useless. They rarely, if ever, reflect what's really in the film. As a parent, the only thing you can do is either watch the movie ahead of time, or rely on people you know who have seen it. We rarely go to movies anymore anyway, there's so much crap coming out of Hollyweird, and it's just too doggone expensive. For the few I want to see (like X3 :D) I can wait for DVD release.
But, FWIW, Aladdin had references to Allah in it and it got a G rating. :D
Sooner in Tampa
6/8/2006, 09:50 AM
if i had kids i think i would rather be the one to expose them to religious propaganda
at least with the rating parents might know what their kids are being exposed to
i love how Christians think their religion is right above all others and should get a free pass in any situation
This movie was made by a Baptist church organization...if you send your kids to it you should EXPECT that it would contain some sort of a message.
This has NOTHING to do with Christians wanting a "free pass" this has to do with the MPAA giving a PG rating to a movie that I doubt deserves it. If it were a movie containing a message about the Jewish religion, I would feel the same way.
Remember when the pile of sh!t movie "Showgirls" got its ratings? The hollywood crowd got ****ed because it recieved a NC-17 and went on claiming it as art and how unjustified the rating was.
[QUOTE]i love how Christians think their religion is right above all others and should get a free pass in any situation QUOTE]
Christians arent looking for a free pass, we are looking for a level playing field
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 09:54 AM
if i had kids i think i would rather be the one to expose them to religious propaganda
at least with the rating parents might know what their kids are being exposed to
i love how Christians think their religion is right above all others and should get a free pass in any situation
I love how non-Christians ignore the clear cultural and media bias against our religion. The same way that white people used to ignore the clear cultural bias against blacks.
This movie was made by a Baptist church organization...if you send your kids to it you should EXPECT that it would contain some sort of a message.
This has NOTHING to do with Christians wanting a "free pass" this has to do with the MPAA giving a PG rating to a movie that I doubt deserves it. If it were a movie containing a message about the Jewish religion, I would feel the same way.
what about Islam? Atheism?
who decides what is "wholesome"?
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 09:56 AM
what about Islam? Atheism?
who decides what is "wholesome"?
If either of those is wholesome, it's by accident.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 09:57 AM
This movie was made by a Baptist church organization...if you send your kids to it you should EXPECT that it would contain some sort of a message.
You'd expect parents to realize that the South Park movie wasn't kid-friendly either--as if the R rating wasn't enough warning--but that didn't stop some of them from sending their kids to it and then complaining until theaters treated it as if it had an NC-17 rating. Some people are too ****ing stupid to have kids, and the MPAA is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't.
I love how non-Christians ignore the clear cultural and media bias against our religion. The same way that white people used to ignore the clear cultural bias against blacks.
you can't be serious
Sooner in Tampa
6/8/2006, 09:59 AM
what about Islam? Atheism?
who decides what is "wholesome"?Same difference...type religion does NOT matter. If an Islamic organization makes a good movie with good Islamic values (not the extreme Islamic views) the more power to them. You should expect Islamic views if an Islamic church made a movie...it should go without saying. The MPAA doesn't need to slam it with a PG rating just because religion is discussed at length in a movie.
Parents decide what is "wholesome" for the most part when dealing with religious issues. But there are also "understood" rules in civilized societies about what is wholesome and what is not.
if parents decide, then "Parental Guidance" sounds appropriate doesn't it?
Sooner in Tampa
6/8/2006, 10:01 AM
You'd expect parents to realize that the South Park movie wasn't kid-friendly either--as if the R rating wasn't enough warning--but that didn't stop some of them from sending their kids to it and then complaining until theaters treated it as if it had an NC-17 rating. Some people are too ****ing stupid to have kids, and the MPAA is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't.HEH...you have a point there.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 10:01 AM
Parents decide what is "wholesome" for the most part when dealing with religious issues.
DING DING DING! Thus the Parental Guidance rating....
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:03 AM
DING DING DING! Thus the Parental Guidance rating....
I agree with your earlier comments about the MPAA. PG "rating" is meaningless. "PG" should be going on constantly.
JohnnyMack
6/8/2006, 10:04 AM
You'd expect parents to realize that the South Park movie wasn't kid-friendly either--as if the R rating wasn't enough warning--but that didn't stop some of them from sending their kids to it and then complaining until theaters treated it as if it had an NC-17 rating. Some people are too ****ing stupid to have kids, and the MPAA is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't.
Wasn't that the ENTIRE point of that movie in the first place? That parents should be paying attention to what their children are doing.
In an ironic nipple twist, this PG rating and publicity has probably made that movie some $.
JohnnyMack
6/8/2006, 10:05 AM
If either of those is wholesome, it's by accident.
Look down your nose much?
Sooner in Tampa
6/8/2006, 10:05 AM
if parents decide, then "Parental Guidance" sounds appropriate doesn't it?So what you are saying is that not only should I decide WHAT movies my kids see, but I should also watch EVERY movie they see ?
When I say that parents decide...it goes like this.
There is a movie made by a chrisitan religion showing at the Cineplex
There is a movie made by a jewish religion showing at the corner theater
The parents decide if they want their kids to see
a) none
b) christian movie
c) jewish movie
d) both
e) f$ck (f@$k) it send them to see south park :D
PG doesn't stop kids from going in, it's not like it's R and they have to have someone with them.
PG just means that maybe parents should think about it.
and i know plenty of parents that screen movies before their kids see them.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:07 AM
you can't be serious
Here where I work there are a couple of mid-level managers who go out of their way to show their disrespect for me because they know I'm a Christian. And not just me, but a couple of my co-workers, too. And don't be chalking that up to paranoia. I'm not about to give out details of such things on a public message board, but I've been told directly what's going on.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:09 AM
Look down your nose much?
Truth is truth.
to be blunt, you aren't just "Christian"
Sooner in Tampa
6/8/2006, 10:10 AM
PG doesn't stop kids from going in, it's not like it's R and they have to have someone with them.
PG just means that maybe parents should think about it.
and i know plenty of parents that screen movies before their kids see them.
True
I guess so
There is no way in hell, I have enough time to pre-screen every single movie that my kids watch. I do however, ensure that do read and research the movies they are going to be viewing.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:10 AM
to be blunt, you aren't just "Christian"
You wanna explain that? A person is either a Christian or they're not. There are no "degrees" of child-of-God-hood.
Hamhock
6/8/2006, 10:11 AM
So what you are saying is that not only should I decide WHAT movies my kids see, but I should also watch EVERY movie they see ?
I think a parent should watch every movie their kids are gonna see.
I think a parent should watch every movie their kids are gonna see.
oh lawd no, do you realize how many hours of crappy animation that would subject me to? :D
I agree.
SoonerInKCMO
6/8/2006, 10:17 AM
You wanna explain that? A person is either a Christian or they're not. There are no "degrees" of child-of-God-hood.
You seem to be, at least in the persona projected on this message board, more "up in one's grill" about the child-of-God-hood stuff.
You wanna explain that? A person is either a Christian or they're not. There are no "degrees" of child-of-God-hood.
there are phrases that go before "Christian" though, like "closed minded" or "holier than thou"
there are plenty of Christians on the board, they don't all act just like you.
if you discuss your opinions at work like you do on the board i can see why someone might go out of their way to torment you, even over other Christians you may work with.
JohnnyMack
6/8/2006, 10:23 AM
there are phrases that go before "Christian" though, like "closed minded" or "holier than thou"
there are plenty of Christians on the board, they don't all act just like you.
if you discuss your opinions at work like you do on the board i can see why someone might go out of their way to torment you, even over other Christians you may work with.
Heh.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 10:24 AM
Here where I work there are a couple of mid-level managers who go out of their way to show their disrespect for me because they know I'm a Christian.
And I'm sure you've never shown them any disrespect about their beliefs....
Truth is truth.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 10:27 AM
Wasn't that the ENTIRE point of that movie in the first place? That parents should be paying attention to what their children are doing.
Yep. It was very meta. The entire premise of the movie was taking place at the same time in real life in regards to the movie itself. Except for bombing Canada.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:28 AM
there are phrases that go before "Christian" though, like "closed minded" or "holier than thou"
there are plenty of Christians on the board, they don't all act just like you.
if you discuss your opinions at work like you do on the board i can see why someone might go out of their way to torment you, even over other Christians you may work with.
You tell me specifically when I've been "closed minded" or "holier than thou". If you mean "speaking the truth" and "saying some things are wrong", then I'm guilty. The paradigm of "all opinions are equally valid" is invalid. I make no apologies for the fact that my faith affects every area of my life, and I never "check it at the door". If a person believes something is true, they should act like it.
Of course, I suppose I could just pick my cotton, tote my bale, and keep my mouth shut, and then I'd get along wid' da massuh real well, huh?
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:32 AM
And I'm sure you've never shown them any disrespect about their beliefs....
I most certainly have not. We've never discussed their beliefs, and I've never really discussed mine with them. Through some other circumstances, they found out my beliefs, and their actions toward me changed as a result. Even though what they're doing happens to be illegal, I'm not about to sue them over it, because I know the source of their behavior.
Y'all are making my point nicely, BTW. I see that the general opinion is that it's perfectly fine to act in a hostile manner to someone who speaks out about their beliefs. Dr. King might be alive today if he'd followed your advice.
You tell me specifically when I've been "closed minded" or "holier than thou". If you mean "speaking the truth" and "saying some things are wrong", then I'm guilty. The paradigm of "all opinions are equally valid" is invalid. I make no apologies for the fact that my faith affects every area of my life, and I never "check it at the door". If a person believes something is true, they should act like it.
Of course, I suppose I could just pick my cotton, tote my bale, and keep my mouth shut, and then I'd get along wid' da massuh real well, huh?
Exhibit A
JohnnyMack
6/8/2006, 10:38 AM
The paradigm of "all opinions are equally valid" is invalid. I make no apologies for the fact that my faith affects every area of my life, and I never "check it at the door". If a person believes something is true, they should act like it.
So I suppose you have a sort of empathy for the 09/11 terrorists then?
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:40 AM
So I suppose you have a sort of empathy for the 09/11 terrorists then?
Have a nice vacation.
so you should only go by your faith if it's your version of it?
there are lots of other people that think they are right too
...this one's getting good...
:D
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 10:50 AM
Of course, I suppose I could just pick my cotton, tote my bale, and keep my mouth shut, and then I'd get along wid' da massuh real well, huh?
Yep, Christians have it real tough in this country. Other Christians have it so much better. Early Christians were merely fed to the lions. That was quick and painless compared to being forced to see half a second of Will and Grace or--heaven forbid--Queer Eye For the Straight Guy while flipping through the channels. And at least the Christians getting slaughtered in East Africa have a chance to take a few infidels with them. In the US, there is no adequate reprisal against the outrage of being wished "Happy Holidays".
It's amazing that the 20% of Americans who don't have God on their side have so much power over the other 80%. Must be all those activist judges appointed by democratically elected governments. The heathens already control the media, and now they're trying to take over the government--the same government conceived by all those Christians like Thomas Jefferson. IN YOUR FACE, SUCKAS! Where's your God now?
JohnnyMack
6/8/2006, 10:51 AM
Have a nice vacation.
No seriously if you think that if what a person believes is true and that they should act like it, how can you fault Mohammed Atta and his cohorts for their actions? They were simply carrying out their beliefs.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:52 AM
so you should only go by your faith if it's your version of it?
there are lots of other people that think they are right too
Well, let's examine that for a minute.
Just because a person "thinks" they're right doesn't mean they are. You have to check truth claims against an outside source, or you could very well be deceiving yourself. And just because nobody knows the truth about something doesn't mean that there is no truth to be discovered.
As far as Islam goes, there are two possibilities: a) it really does teach the kind of violent jihad slaying of infidels that is occurring, and has occurred throughout the history of that religion. That would make it invalid as such activity is clearly immoral (and don't go throwing around similar Christian actions like the Crusades and the Inquisition. To the extent that those actions violated Scripture, they were immoral too).
b) Islam does not teach such violence, in which case the terrorists are not acting in accordance with their faith as they should know it.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 10:52 AM
there are lots of other people that think they are right too
What part of "handcrafted is infallible" don't you understand?
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:56 AM
What part of "handcrafted is infallible" don't you understand?
Dude, you don't even get a pass on that one. You know very well I've never claimed to be infallible. I claim that the Bible is infallible, not me.
Come on, you're capable of some intelligent argument. Don't stoop to that level.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 10:58 AM
No seriously if you think that if what a person believes is true and that they should act like it, how can you fault Mohammed Atta and his cohorts for their actions? They were simply carrying out their beliefs.
And that goes to prove that their beliefs are immoral, invalid, and wrong. Can't make it any clearer than that.
Scott D
6/8/2006, 10:59 AM
Movie ratings are pretty useless. They rarely, if ever, reflect what's really in the film. As a parent, the only thing you can do is either watch the movie ahead of time, or rely on people you know who have seen it. We rarely go to movies anymore anyway, there's so much crap coming out of Hollyweird, and it's just too doggone expensive. For the few I want to see (like X3 :D) I can wait for DVD release.
But, FWIW, Aladdin had references to Allah in it and it got a G rating. :D
fwiw handcrafted, Aladdin got a G rating for one reason...the same reason a violent remake of Hamlet called The Lion King got a G rating.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 11:00 AM
You have to check truth claims against an outside source, or you could very well be deceiving yourself.
Hey, now there's an idea. What outside source do you have that verifies the infallibility of the Bible? Or specifically your interpretation of the Bible?
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 11:02 AM
fwiw handcrafted, Aladdin got a G rating for one reason...the same reason a violent remake of Hamlet called The Lion King got a G rating.
Yeah I know. It was a Disney cartoon. :D
Scott D
6/8/2006, 11:06 AM
Yeah I know. It was a Disney cartoon. :D
edzachary. I could go on and on about how much of a joke the rating system is...but, that would be stating the obvious.
but back to the main point of my participation in this thread. Basically just the fact of live action rather than Disney/Pixar animation is pretty much a flat out guarantee that a film will have a PG rating at minimum.
That's part of the reason why you're finding more directors who are willing to go independant and avoid the rating system at least temporarily, or releasing unrated director cuts of films on DVD.
JohnnyMack
6/8/2006, 11:08 AM
And that goes to prove that their beliefs are immoral, invalid, and wrong. Can't make it any clearer than that.
Without turning this thread into the dead horse it's rapidly devolving into, I'll just say that just because YOU believe that, doesn't make it so. Your penchant for dealing in absolutes makes you a perfect candidate to be Tuba's padawan.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 11:14 AM
Dude, you don't even get a pass on that one. You know very well I've never claimed to be infallible.
I know you've never said it, but what you do say doesn't make any sense unless you think that on some level. You say you've studied the Bible and other historical evidence to come to "the truth". That's all well and good, but that's nothing but your interpretation. Other people have looked at that exact same set of data and come to different conclusions, while others reject that set of data altogether in the same way you would reject their set of data. Since you are just as fallible as the rest of us, what makes your interpretation superior to everyone else's? Christians are a minority on this planet, and since I know you're not a Catholic your particular denomination is a minority of that minority. So what do you guys know that the vast majority of humanity hasn't been able to figure out?
I claim that the Bible is infallible, not me.
See above.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 11:15 AM
Hey, now there's an idea. What outside source do you have that verifies the infallibility of the Bible? Or specifically your interpretation of the Bible?
Well, uh, let's see, there's...GOD, for instance. You have to start there. However, one needs to proceed from reliability to infallibility, because the main argument for infallibility starts with the Bible itself.
So, for reliability, there's:
1. Archaeological evidence that the history is accurate.
2. External sources that verify what's written.
3. Most of what was written was written by prophets or apostles, or under their authority, who proved what they were saying by supernatural actions.
In short, the same way you'd verify any ancient text, like Plato's Republic for example. Just so happens that the Bible has over 10 times the external documentation than Plato has.
Infallibility is a doctrine, derived from reliability and reading of the text itself. Admittedly, there are a lot of Christians who don't believe that the Bible is infallible. However, because of that, they've gone astray into the danger of teaching falsehood, to varying degrees.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 11:17 AM
Without turning this thread into the dead horse it's rapidly devolving into, I'll just say that just because YOU believe that, doesn't make it so. Your penchant for dealing in absolutes makes you a perfect candidate to be Tuba's padawan.
I think the padawan has surpassed his master. Tuba = Obi Wan, handcrafted = Anakin. :D
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 11:21 AM
Without turning this thread into the dead horse it's rapidly devolving into, I'll just say that just because YOU believe that, doesn't make it so. Your penchant for dealing in absolutes makes you a perfect candidate to be Tuba's padawan.
Well, since you're at the Gates of Hell, and Jesus said they wouldn't prevail, then I win. :D
Seriously, though. The whole thing about absolutes has been beat to death in another thread so I won't re-thrash it here. I would just ask you to seriously consider what your life would be like if you really, really, acted like there were no absolutes. I mean consistently. All the time. Ask yourself these questions: Could I even live in such a world? Would I want to?
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 11:31 AM
Well, uh, let's see, there's...GOD, for instance. You have to start there.
Right off the bat you're starting with an unprovable assumption. Game over.
However, one needs to proceed from reliability to infallibility, because the main argument for infallibility starts with the Bible itself.
So, for reliability, there's:
1. Archaeological evidence that the history is accurate.
2. External sources that verify what's written.
If you want to prove infallibility you have to prove that everything is true. Nobody (well, almost nobody) disputes that at least some of the stuff in the Bible is true. It is certainly a valuable historical document.
Conversely, if we can prove just one substantial fact wrong the whole thing falls apart, right? Two words: Copernicus. I know you'll say this was an error in interpreation not an error in the Bible itself, but that just bolsters my point: Even if the Bible itself is infallible, there no such thing as an infallible interpretation of the Bible. Your interpretation is subject to the same biases and flaws as anybody else's. Unless you claim to be infallible, but we've already covered that.
3. Most of what was written was written by prophets or apostles, or under their authority, who proved what they were saying by supernatural actions.
Where is the proof of these supernatural actions? And if we could prove these events they would no longer be supernatural by definition. Some seismologists have speculated that the parting of the Red Sea and Noah's flood could both be accounts of earthquakes.
Infallibility is a doctrine, derived from reliability and reading of the text itself.
So we're back to saying the Bible is infallible because it says it's infallible? Because there's certainly no independent verification of the Bible's infallibility.
P.S. Isn't religion supposed to be about faith more so than proof?
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 11:57 AM
I know you've never said it, but what you do say doesn't make any sense unless you think that on some level. You say you've studied the Bible and other historical evidence to come to "the truth". That's all well and good, but that's nothing but your interpretation. Other people have looked at that exact same set of data and come to different conclusions, while others reject that set of data altogether in the same way you would reject their set of data. Since you are just as fallible as the rest of us, what makes your interpretation superior to everyone else's? Christians are a minority on this planet, and since I know you're not a Catholic your particular denomination is a minority of that minority. So what do you guys know that the vast majority of humanity hasn't been able to figure out?
You are engaging in a fallacy. You're arguing that, just because humans are fallible and cannot know the absolute entire truth about everything, (conclusion) there is no absolute entire truth about everything. Basically you're saying if we can't know something with absolute certainty, it's not true. But of course, that is an absolute statement, so the position is self-defeating. You have an incorrect definition of truth and knowledge, one which leads to absurdity. And you are confusing the two concepts. They are not the same.
Truth is based on objective propositions. Knowledge (fancy word: epistemology) simply means that you have a belief that is supported with adequate justification, i.e. truthful objective propositions. And as far as "figuring it out" goes, you can't figure it out by yourself. No one can. God brings the means into your life to help you figure it out. Those means consist of your life experience, your knowledge of yourself and your true nature, His Word (the Bible), and...people like me. :)
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 12:15 PM
You're arguing that, just because humans are fallible and cannot know the absolute entire truth about everything, (conclusion) there is no absolute entire truth about everything.
No, I'm not saying that.
Basically you're saying if we can't know something with absolute certainty, it's not true.
Or that. You seem to be saying that even if we can't know something with absolute certainty we can still act like we do.
And as far as "figuring it out" goes, you can't figure it out by yourself. No one can. God brings the means into your life to help you figure it out. Those means consist of your life experience, your knowledge of yourself and your true nature, His Word (the Bible), and...people like me. :)
Your knowledge and life experience have led you to belive the Bible. Others' knowledge and life experience have led them to believe something else. Why is your knowledge and life experience superior to theirs?
Here's the ultimate paradox of religion or any belief system: If you don't think your belief system is correct it's not really your belief system. But at the same time, everyone else is just as sincere about their beliefs. Since there's not an objective standard to determine who is correct, you have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 12:23 PM
Tell you what, MD. Rather than me going into all of this which would take several pages and probably by now you and I are the only ones listening :), go over to Mardels (no, you won't get hit by lightning :D) and pick up a book called I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. It's by Norm Geisler and Frank Turek. If they don't have it, some other stores in town might, or Amazon certainly does. Read it. And remember, "certainty" is not "freedom from doubt" but "freedom from reasonable doubt."
As far as the "unprovable assumption" goes, it can be shown that God is a necessary assumption for existence itself. In short, you don't need to "prove that God exists" because God's existence is a necessity for anything else to exist.
Scott D
6/8/2006, 12:25 PM
Tell you what, MD. Rather than me going into all of this which would take several pages and probably by now you and I are the only ones listening :), go over to Mardels (no, you won't get hit by lightning :D) and pick up a book called I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. It's by Norm Geisler and Frank Turek. If they don't have it, some other stores in town might, or Amazon certainly does. Read it. And remember, "certainty" is not "freedom from doubt" but "freedom from reasonable doubt."
As far as the "unprovable assumption" goes, it can be shown that God is a necessary assumption for existence itself. In short, you don't need to "prove that God exists" because God's existence is a necessity for anything else to exist.
God has asked me to ask you to stop stalking him, it creeps him out a bit. :D
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 12:30 PM
You seem to be saying that even if we can't know something with absolute certainty we can still act like we do.
That is exactly what I'm saying. More precisely, we must still act like we do. It's the nature of existence.
Your knowledge and life experience have led you to belive the Bible. Others' knowledge and life experience have led them to believe something else. Why is your knowledge and life experience superior to theirs?
It's not just knowledge and life experience, as I said. It requires God's intervention through the means of His Spirit, the Bible and other people. My knowledge is superior in the sense that it's the most accurate reflection of truth, but that doesn't mean that I'm superior, because I did not gain the knowledge of my own accord. It was given to me. Same with any believer.
Here's the ultimate paradox of religion or any belief system: If you don't think your belief system is correct it's not really your belief system. But at the same time, everyone else is just as sincere about their beliefs. Since there's not an objective standard to determine who is correct, you have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong.
The possibility, but not the reasonable possibility.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 12:31 PM
God has asked me to ask you to stop stalking him, it creeps him out a bit. :D
You been watching that George Burns movie again, haven't you? :D
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 12:37 PM
And remember, "certainty" is not "freedom from doubt" but "freedom from reasonable doubt."
For all the bull**** that gets carried out in God's name I guess I expect a higher standard of proof.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 12:39 PM
For all the bull**** that gets carried out in God's name I guess I expect a higher standard of proof.
And the bull**** that gets carried out that's not in God's name deserves less attention? Listen, man, people are people and they will justify anything if it gets them off the hook. But people invoking God for their own evil purposes doesn't affect the truth. It just shows the nature of people.
SoonerInKCMO
6/8/2006, 12:39 PM
As far as the "unprovable assumption" goes, it can be shown that God is a necessary assumption for existence itself. In short, you don't need to "prove that God exists" because God's existence is a necessity for anything else to exist.
:rolleyes:
Oh well... at least it's the cosmological argument instead of the teleological one we usually get around here when evolution and stuff is discussed.
Scott D
6/8/2006, 12:39 PM
You been watching that George Burns movie again, haven't you? :D
Well it was this bush burning in the front of our complex that talked.... ;)
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 12:41 PM
My knowledge is superior in the sense that it's the most accurate reflection of truth
How the hell do you know?
It was given to me. Same with any believer.
Then how come all these believers have a different version of the truth? And how do we decide whose version is the most accurate?
I love how non-Christians ignore the clear cultural and media bias against our religion. The same way that white people used to ignore the clear cultural bias against blacks.
Ludicrously, offensively flawed analogies aside, I think your so called "clear cultural and media bias" against your religion comes from people getting tired of people trying to tell them that their lives are hollow and meaningless because they don't believe the same thing as them. The notion that you have to abandon all sense of free will and self-determinism in order to be considered "good people".
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 12:50 PM
And the bull**** that gets carried out that's not in God's name deserves less attention?
When athesists and agnostics start burning witches at the stake, embarking on crusades to re-take the Holy Land, and killing all infidels in the name of Allah, get back to me.
Who would you be more afraid of: A dude walking down the street brandishing a couple of automatic weapons and draped in ammo belts, or a dude walking down the street brandishing a couple of automatic weapons and draped in ammo belts while muttering that he's going to carry out God's will?
White House Boy
6/8/2006, 01:22 PM
Here's the ultimate paradox of religion or any belief system: If you don't think your belief system is correct it's not really your belief system. But at the same time, everyone else is just as sincere about their beliefs. Since there's not an objective standard to determine who is correct, you have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong.
Did you pick up a copy of the book (More Than a Carpenter, by Josh McDowell) that I recommended to you last week?
If not, give it a whirl. It's a thought provoking read, to say the least.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 01:38 PM
Did you pick up a copy of the book (More Than a Carpenter, by Josh McDowell) that I recommended to you last week?
Maybe next week when I'm done with my marathon stretch of sailing classes...
Pricetag
6/8/2006, 02:00 PM
Remember when the pile of sh!t movie "Showgirls" got its ratings? The hollywood crowd got ****ed because it recieved a NC-17 and went on claiming it as art and how unjustified the rating was.
i love how Christians think their religion is right above all others and should get a free pass in any situation
Christians arent looking for a free pass, we are looking for a level playing field
Unless the artsy-fartsy Hollywood crowd successfully lobbied to have Showgirls switched to "R," then this guy has unwittingly debunked the idea that the Christian movie is being discriminated against.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 04:38 PM
Ludicrously, offensively flawed analogies aside, I think your so called "clear cultural and media bias" against your religion comes from people getting tired of people trying to tell them that their lives are hollow and meaningless because they don't believe the same thing as them. The notion that you have to abandon all sense of free will and self-determinism in order to be considered "good people".
Well, at least now we know what the Serpent in the Garden's name was. :D
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 04:39 PM
When athesists and agnostics start burning witches at the stake, embarking on crusades to re-take the Holy Land, and killing all infidels in the name of Allah, get back to me.
Who would you be more afraid of: A dude walking down the street brandishing a couple of automatic weapons and draped in ammo belts, or a dude walking down the street brandishing a couple of automatic weapons and draped in ammo belts while muttering that he's going to carry out God's will?
Well....both equally, actually. :)
What I mean is...lemme flip that onto you for a sec. For believers, misusing God's name is of course a grave sin. But for you non-believers, what do you care what somebody's reason for mass murder is? Isn't it all the same, and all bad? What makes something done in the name of religion worse than something done in the name of ethnic cleansing, or just plain cruelty?
Well, at least now we know what the Serpent in the Garden's name was. :D
The two greatest gifts God gave to Man are Jesus and free will. Without the latter, the sacrifice of the former is pointless and wasteful. God WANTS us to exercise free will in our lives; it's part of His plan. When people try to force everyone else to march lockstep with their beliefs, I just shake my head.
TUSooner
6/8/2006, 04:46 PM
I was gonna read this thread and say something really wise and insightful. But I got a headache on page 1. :(
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 05:02 PM
How the hell do you know?
If you think you have the truth, then you are making the same type of claim that I am, and you need to be able to justify it. If you don't think you have the truth, then on what basis do you declare that I don't either?
Then how come all these believers have a different version of the truth? And how do we decide whose version is the most accurate?
Let me give you an example. Let's say we have a class full of math students, and the professor gives out an exam, and there's one question on the test that everybody in the class gets wrong. Does it then follow that there was no correct answer to that question?
The issue here is the sinful nature of people, and the reason is the same as the answer to "why are there believers and unbelievers".
The way we, as believers, decide, is (broken record, yes) reference to the Bible. I know, a lot of the argument is over stuff that's not in it, and that is stuff we really shouldn't be arguing about. But as far as what is in it, the answer is, people are sinners. We perceive truth but we don't receive or embrace it. We prefer the traditions of men over the commandments of God.
handcrafted
6/8/2006, 05:17 PM
The two greatest gifts God gave to Man are Jesus and free will. Without the latter, the sacrifice of the former is pointless and wasteful. God WANTS us to exercise free will in our lives; it's part of His plan. When people try to force everyone else to march lockstep with their beliefs, I just shake my head.
I really don't think I can address all the bad theology in that statement in the space of a message board. :( But if you believe that Jesus is God's greatest gift, then you owe it to God and yourself to learn all you can about Him. He's in the Book. :)
Anyway, at this point I must say "out". I won't be on the Board much for several days. Peems if anyone really needs to talk.
wow, my personal beliefs are "bad theology"? Thank you for reminding me why I left the church.
Then how come all these believers have a different version of the truth? And how do we decide whose version is the most accurate?
The correct- most accurate version is the one in the Bible. People try to twist it to meet their needs and thats why there are so many differences among "Christians". If you look at the theology of the Bible you see a God who was killed on a cross and requires you to surrender All to him. Its not about your own free will its about his (God's) soveriegnty. I say that not to force my believes on you but to say this. Look around, what person would make up a religion that requires man to give up all control of his/her life to follow God. ALL other religions require man to do something, not true with Christianity.
mdklatt
6/8/2006, 11:27 PM
If you don't think you have the truth, then on what basis do you declare that I don't either?
I never said you didn't, but I'm certainly not going to take your word for it. For every Protestant like you I could find a Catholic, a Jew, a Muslim, a Mormon, etc. that is just as sure that they have the truth, and has a mountain of evidence to back up their claims. In the end, none of that evidence is incotrovertible or else we wouldn't even need to have this discussion. Religion is a personal choice, and everybody needs to mind their own damn business about everybody else's personal choices.
Let's say we have a class full of math students, and the professor gives out an exam, and there's one question on the test that everybody in the class gets wrong. Does it then follow that there was no correct answer to that question?
It follows that I shouldn't believe anybody else when they tell me what they know the answer is.
The way we, as believers, decide, is (broken record, yes) reference to the Bible. I know, a lot of the argument is over stuff that's not in it, and that is stuff we really shouldn't be arguing about. But as far as what is in it, the answer is, people are sinners. We perceive truth but we don't receive or embrace it. We prefer the traditions of men over the commandments of God.
If religion is a search for an ultimate truth, than everybody has it ***-backwards. The truth isn't in the differences but in the similarities.
Here's an example for you. There are three witnesses to a crime, and they're each describing the getaway car. One says it was a silver Dodge. The second one says it was a silver Ford. The third says it was a silver Chevy. What kind of a car should the police search for? A Chevy, a Dodge, or a Ford? None of the above. They should search for a silver car regardless of the make.
Here's an example for you. There are three witnesses to a crime, and they're each describing the getaway car. One says it was a silver Dodge. The second one says it was a silver Ford. The third says it was a silver Chevy. What kind of a car should the police search for? A Chevy, a Dodge, or a Ford? None of the above. They should search for a silver car regardless of the make.
At least they recognize that there was a crime, it occured, and all three believe that someone is responsible. The big picture is that religion is FAITH based, and through faith one believes there are facts. My facts may not agree with yours, and that is why this thread has extented this long.
The two greatest gifts God gave to Man are Jesus and free will. Without the latter, the sacrifice of the former is pointless and wasteful. God WANTS us to exercise free will in our lives; it's part of His plan. When people try to force everyone else to march lockstep with their beliefs, I just shake my head.
I shake my head to the beat of the lockstep just to cover my bases. :texan:
crawfish
6/9/2006, 09:54 AM
wow, my personal beliefs are "bad theology"? Thank you for reminding me why I left the church.
While I wouldn't go that far, I would disagree with your assertion of "free will" as a gift. It is both a blessing and a curse - you can choose your own path, but so can the guy who decides he wants to open fire on a school. Free will is simply a necessity to make our choice worth something - if God is simply pulling strings or compelling us to make certain decisions, then any decision we made would be meaningless to him. In fact, the necessity for Christ's sacrifice was only because we have the ability to choose wrong.
Grace is God's greatest gift to man. Grace was personified in Christ's sacrifice.
sooner n houston
6/9/2006, 10:02 AM
Wow, I'm amazed to see how many people have come out to attack the Christians!
Sooner in Tampa
6/9/2006, 10:05 AM
Wow, I'm amazed to see how many people have come out to attack the Christians!I'm not. :(
Scott D
6/9/2006, 10:08 AM
Wow, I'm amazed to see how many people have come out to attack the Christians!
so now handcrafted's personal views are 'the Christians'?
well hell, let's start rounding y'all up and get some lions and start throwing your asses in the arenas ;)
for the record I only attacked the mpaa
SoonerInKCMO
6/9/2006, 10:10 AM
Yes, y'all are being martyred up in here. :rolleyes:
TopDawg
6/9/2006, 06:22 PM
As a Christian, I think of all humans Jesus probably embodied/understood God's plan for our life better than anyone else. I'm thinking that anybody who knew the truth the same way Jesus did would not spend much time on any message board. And that's as much a criticism of my commitment to my faith as anyone else's.
In other words, I personally think--I have faith that--I've discovered the truth, but I'm not convinced and my actions prove it. I believe that knowing the truth means I should live a life like Jesus did, but I don't live a life like Jesus, so apparently there are some things that aren't true that are creeping into my belief system.
In other words, as it currently stands I think I've got a pretty good handle on the truth, but my actions show I'm not sure. As a result, I spend way too much time on things that Jesus said were unimportant and too little time on the things he said were important. It's a struggle I fight every day and I don't know if I'll ever get there...I hope so...but right now there is a gap between what I think Christianity (what I think is the truth) should be and what my life is, so I can't honestly say that I know I know THE truth. There's at least a little uncertainty that's creeping in there somewhere.
TopDawg
6/9/2006, 06:28 PM
Man, sometimes this board acts trippy.
Wow, I'm amazed to see how many people have come out to attack the Christians!
I know! I'm deeply offended by all these spurious attacks on my faith. :mad:
I know! I'm deeply offended by all these spurrious attacks on my faith. :mad:
But at least he's a pretty good football coach.
TopDawg
6/9/2006, 06:41 PM
Also, I'm a little bit wary of anyone who claims to know THE truth. I'm pretty sure that if there are people out there who actually do know THE truth (and I think it's entirely possible), they are going to realize that the truth is too complicated to think that they actually know it.
TD, there is a quote that goes something like this: Those that claim to know everthing, prove they know nothing. I can't find the source, but I try to always remember this when I get too confident in my beliefs about anything.
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