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KaiserSooner
5/23/2006, 12:56 PM
Those of you who read science fiction:

I'm about to boldly go where KaiserSooner has never gone before....the depths of science fiction novels. I've suddenly become interested in Arthur C. Clarke and Heinlein....what of there stuff do you guys recommend?

I've been leaning towards Clarke's Childhood's End. Suggestions?

King Crimson
5/23/2006, 01:03 PM
i don't know much about the genre, but i did really dig Asimov's Foundation novels/series one summer in college. read a lot of Vonnegut that summer too. good times.

NormanPride
5/23/2006, 01:07 PM
Asimov's Foundation series is good, but if you like lighter stuff, go with the I, Robot series. They're more mysteries than science fiction, and easy to start off with.

If you're into hardcore science, Clarke is good to go for. His Rama series is top-notch and will not disappoint, though it is LONG. If you like funny things, Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series is goofy and light. Make sure you start in the right order, though... things can get confusing if you skip a book.

Pride Baritone
5/23/2006, 01:09 PM
I don't read a whole lot of science fiction novels, but of the books that I have read my two personal favorites are Ender's Game and Dune. Both are considered to be some of the best in the genre, so I'd check them out.

Melo
5/23/2006, 01:10 PM
Orson Scott Card - Ender's game

If youre getting into Science fiction, I suggest this. I've read more times than I can count, at least once a month. Once I finish it, I begin reading it again, it's just that good. It's really easy to get into, and you forget sometimes that youre reading about a 6 year old kid.

http://www.hatrack.com/osc/books/endersgame/endersgame.shtml

HoserSooner
5/23/2006, 01:10 PM
'Contact' By Carl Sagan is good, and much better than the movie.

NormanPride
5/23/2006, 01:15 PM
Forgot about Orson Scott Card... the whole Ender series is excellent.

And I would hate myself if I didn't mention Neil Stephenson. He's more cyber-punk but the stories are beyond excellent, and can really make you think. Snow Crash is good to start out with, and then Diamond Age is my one of my favorites ever.

Scott D
5/23/2006, 01:15 PM
Foundation and Robots series' by Asimov...the two intertwine more than once. Card's Ender/Shadow series isn't half bad..and they are suppossedly making Ender's Game into a feature film. I think you'd like the Douglas Adams' series (Hitchhiker's Guide..etc.), I'm also safe in thinking that you'd really like the political aspects of the Chung Kuo series.

TUSooner
5/23/2006, 01:18 PM
Does Vonnegut count? I read Breakfast of Champions the other day. It made me laugh some.

crawfish
5/23/2006, 01:19 PM
Orson Scott Card - Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead"

Ender's Game is one of the best novels of all time. Absolutely brilliant. Speaker is a sequel, completely different in tone but also brilliant. There are a whole slew of less-than-worthy sequels you can avoid, though.

Vernor Vinge - A Fire in the Deep, A Deepness in the Sky

Far-future, hard SF that's not difficult to read or understand. Both are set in the same universe but you can start with either.

If you haven't read Ender, I'd suggest that one first.

Melo
5/23/2006, 01:21 PM
If you haven't read Ender, I'd suggest that one first.

I've always considered Ender's game to be the science fiction book for people who never thought they'd like science fiction.

I'd suggest it first, as well. And also, to agree with Craw, the sequel is pretty good, but the rest aren't as good.

Vaevictis
5/23/2006, 01:24 PM
Just about anything by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven (together, not separate -- some of their solo books are good too, but the two together have never left me dissapointed). Footfall, Lucifer's Hammer, The Mote in God's Eye (and other CoDominium series), etc. All excellent.

Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille by Steven Brust. Kind of campy, not awe inspiring or anything, but a fun read. His fantasty stuff, especially the Vlad Taltos and other books set in Dragaera are absolutely great.

proud gonzo
5/23/2006, 02:08 PM
Raymond Feist is really good.

King Crimson
5/23/2006, 02:14 PM
Raymond Feist is really good.

he writes a good phone book, too. ;)

crawfish
5/23/2006, 02:16 PM
Raymond Feist is really good.

Doesn't he write just fantasy, not sci-fi?

Melo
5/23/2006, 02:26 PM
Raymond Feist is really good.

Doesnt he write more Fantasy?

Though I agree, is he REALLY good. I have read all of his Krondor and whatever the other ones were. The series that went with it.

yermom
5/23/2006, 02:29 PM
Heinlein wrote Starship Troopers didn't he?

who wrote the one about the leper?

yermom
5/23/2006, 02:31 PM
this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345348656/102-7594473-6828935?v=glance&n=283155

i heard they were really good

Beano's Fourth Chin
5/23/2006, 02:32 PM
Heinlein

If you end up liking Starship Troopers, also read "The Forever War" by Haldeman. It's kind of like the opposite of Starship Troopers, but the same. It's weird.

If you like time travel, get Timescape by Benford for hard science fiction. I also like Doomsday Book and To Say Nothing of the dog for a chick's look at the genre. Actually most stuff by Willis is pretty good. She's pretty funny. Except in Doomsday Book when she's really serious.

Also a fun time travel book that isn't hard is the Pastwatch The Redemption of Christopher Columbus by Card. Like Melo, I like the first two books of the Ender series. Actually, Ender's game is one of my favorite books of all time.

KaiserSooner
5/23/2006, 02:33 PM
If you're into hardcore science, Clarke is good to go for. His Rama series is top-notch and will not disappoint, though it is LONG.

I'm not sure it's the hardcore science, but Clarke's and Heinlein's stuff sounds like top notch sci fi. Not that I know much about sci fi because it has never (NEVER) appealed to me before now.

KaiserSooner
5/23/2006, 02:35 PM
Vonnegut that summer too. good times.

Vonnegut is great, though I never really considered him sci fi. But I can see how some do.

crawfish
5/23/2006, 02:37 PM
who wrote the one about the leper?

Donaldson? That was fantasy, though.

King Crimson
5/23/2006, 02:38 PM
Vonnegut is great, though I never really considered him sci fi. But I can see how some do.

oh, i didn't really mean it as sci-fi.....just a memory association along with taking an easy summer class and having a pretty mellow summer job on campus corner....with some perks.

all that same summer.

edit: i don't know if it counts, don't see why it wouldn't....but William Gibson's Neuromancer and Count Zero are cheap thrills.

yermom
5/23/2006, 02:39 PM
Donaldson? That was fantasy, though.

yeah i found it

i seemed to think it was about time travel, i guess it was just in some alternate reality or something

KaiserSooner
5/23/2006, 02:42 PM
I'm also safe in thinking that you'd really like the political aspects of the Chung Kuo series.

Naturally :D I'll have to look into this series. I've never heard of it.

KaiserSooner
5/23/2006, 02:45 PM
Heinlein wrote Starship Troopers didn't he?

who wrote the one about the leper?

Yeah, apparently. It was made into a hideous movie. He also wrote Strangers in A Strange Land.

crawfish
5/23/2006, 02:52 PM
I'm not sure it's the hardcore science, but Clarke's and Heinlein's stuff sounds like top notch sci fi. Not that I know much about sci fi because it has never (NEVER) appealed to me before now.

Some of Clark's early stuff - especially Rendezvous with Rama, 2001, and Songs of Distant Earth - is fantastic, and still reads well today. Avoid anything co-written with Gentry Lee.

Heinlein has some interesting concepts, but his prose is very dated. He comes across as a dirty old man in a lot of his work (Stranger in a Strange Land). Good stuff, for the most part, but it has its weaknesses.

Vonnegut's stuff has a sci-fi feel but isnt' really sci-fi; his otherworldly stuff tends to be commentary on the world more than actual science.

Asimov is also one of the old masters. The Foundation Trilogy, Caves of Steel and I, Robot are his best SF, but all seem a bit dated.

Philip K Dick is one of the most prophetic of all SF authors. A Scanner Darkly, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? are two of his best. His work has inspired many movies: Blade Runner, Minority Report, Total Recall, Paycheck among them.

Some other books I'd recommend:

Greg Bear - The Forge of God - one of the best apocolyptic books out there.
Walter Miller - A Canticle for Leibowitz - religion in a post-apocolyptic world
William Gibson - Neuromancer - the birth of cyberpunk
Neil Stephenson - Snow Crash - especially great for computer geeks
Frank Herbert - Dune, Children of Dune, Dune Messiah, God Emperor of Dune

Pricetag
5/23/2006, 03:16 PM
Heinlein has some interesting concepts, but his prose is very dated. He comes across as a dirty old man in a lot of his work (Stranger in a Strange Land). Good stuff, for the most part, but it has its weaknesses.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "his prose is very dated"? Is it because most of his stuff is pre-space age? I'm guessing no, since this also would have affected much of Asimov's work.

I've read several of his books. Granted, they're some of the lighter ones (Space Cadet, Starman Jones, Red Planet, Starship Troopers, The Green Hills of Earth), but I enjoyed them a great deal.

I started reading Stranger in a Strange Land a couple of years back, but have yet to finish it. It seemed worthy of its acclaim, though.

KaiserSooner
5/23/2006, 03:21 PM
Awesome. Thanks for the suggestions.

Like I said, sci fi has never interested me. A few days ago, a friend of mine was talking about how sci fi is a waste of time/not worthy (something along those lines) because it totally excludes any concept of God as we understand him. My point was...and I was totally talking out of my ***... was that the brilliance of great sci fi was that it questions our understanding of God/human destiny, etc. And that by doing so, it gets people to think about such stuff.

Anyway, I guess I want to see if I'm right about that ;)

crawfish
5/23/2006, 03:36 PM
Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "his prose is very dated"? Is it because most of his stuff is pre-space age? I'm guessing no, since this also would have affected much of Asimov's work.

I've read several of his books. Granted, they're some of the lighter ones (Space Cadet, Starman Jones, Red Planet, Starship Troopers, The Green Hills of Earth), but I enjoyed them a great deal.

I started reading Stranger in a Strange Land a couple of years back, but have yet to finish it. It seemed worthy of its acclaim, though.

His characters tend to follow the 60's-70's stereotypes pretty heavily. They're not usually fully written, more caricatures than characters. It doesn't feel as timeless as stuff written more recently. That's not necessarily bad (especially if you don't notice it), but I find it a bit annoying. Asimov has the same problem.

Their concepts are usually fascinating, though, and make their books worth reading.

ouflak
5/23/2006, 03:36 PM
Personally, Heinlein is just too strange. His early stuff isn't too bad, but he degenerates quickly. He also had some really whacked out ideas about military structure. Unfortunate, because these glaring deficiencies bring down some otherwise good sci-fi. Anyway my own suggestions:

Mike Resnick - Ivory
David Brin - Sundiver, Startide Rising, The Uplift War, Mars
Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle - Footfall (Dated with strong Cold War themes, but very very good)
Anne McCaffrey - Crystal Singer, Dragon Song
Douglas Adams - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe,, Life, the Universe, and Everything Else, The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul
Fred SaberHagen - Berserker
John Varley - Millenium

David Brin's stuff is a bit hardcore, but everything else plus most of what other's have suggested is good starter material.


A few days ago, a friend of mine was talking about how sci fi is a waste of time/not worthy (something along those lines) because it totally excludes any concept of God as we understand him.

You're friend hasn't read any science fiction then, which is fine. You'll find, especially if you try some of the novels I suggest, that clearly several of these authors are very spiritual. If you're friend is willing to 'waste some time', I'd suggest Mars, Ivory and The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul in particular, as well as the aforementioned The Forge of God. God is an important character in these stories, though it may not always be obvious.

SoonerInKCMO
5/23/2006, 03:37 PM
Philip K Dick is one of the most prophetic of all SF authors. A Scanner Darkly, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

Androids are aggies?!?! :eek:

crawfish
5/23/2006, 03:44 PM
Awesome. Thanks for the suggestions.

Like I said, sci fi has never interested me. A few days ago, a friend of mine was talking about how sci fi is a waste of time/not worthy (something along those lines) because it totally excludes any concept of God as we understand him. My point was...and I was totally talking out of my ***... was that the brilliance of great sci fi was that it questions our understanding of God/human destiny, etc. And that by doing so, it gets people to think about such stuff.

Anyway, I guess I want to see if I'm right about that ;)

I think you're absolutely right. The best sci-fi makes a statement on human nature that's valid today - whether it's the way we are or the way we're becoming. It makes us challenge our assumptions in life, makes us stretch our minds to possibilities we wouldn't consider otherwise.

NormanPride
5/23/2006, 03:44 PM
If you end up liking Starship Troopers, also read "The Forever War" by Haldeman. It's kind of like the opposite of Starship Troopers, but the same. It's weird.

If you like time travel, get Timescape by Benford for hard science fiction. I also like Doomsday Book and To Say Nothing of the dog for a chick's look at the genre. Actually most stuff by Willis is pretty good. She's pretty funny. Except in Doomsday Book when she's really serious.

Also a fun time travel book that isn't hard is the Pastwatch The Redemption of Christopher Columbus by Card. Like Melo, I like the first two books of the Ender series. Actually, Ender's game is one of my favorite books of all time.

Was The Forever War the one with the soldier that dealt with the huge changes in culture that relativity caused? My dad told me about that one and I've been dying to read it since.

Howzit
5/23/2006, 03:49 PM
Vernor Vinge - A Fire in the Deep, A Deepness in the Sky



These are both really good.

Stephen Baxter has written some pretty good books in the last few years.

I've also liked Gregory Benford and Dan Simmons.

Howzit
5/23/2006, 03:53 PM
Oh, and Tad Williams had a good, but long, series on virtual reality but I can't remember what it was called. craw? ScottD?

He is known for fantasy but I would not really consider this series fantasy, myself.

royalfan5
5/23/2006, 03:55 PM
I can't believe no one has mentioned Ray Bradbury yet. Farenhite 454 and the Martian Chronicles are among Sci-fi's very best.

StoopTroup
5/23/2006, 04:08 PM
Anything by L. Ron Hubbard. :D

Scott D
5/23/2006, 08:35 PM
Oh, and Tad Williams had a good, but long, series on virtual reality but I can't remember what it was called. craw? ScottD?

He is known for fantasy but I would not really consider this series fantasy, myself.

The Otherworld Series....basically set in a time not far beyond now, where the online experience is a full VR kind of thing. And the nefarious old men with lots of money and power want to live forever kind of thing.

Melo
5/23/2006, 08:53 PM
I can't believe no one has mentioned Ray Bradbury yet. Farenhite 454 and the Martian Chronicles are among Sci-fi's very best.

Oh, I read that one night in HS when we were having region band try outs. Finished it in one sitting. I cant remember if I liked it. I might have finished it out of shear boredom.

proud gonzo
5/23/2006, 09:05 PM
Oh, I read that one night in HS when we were having region band try outs. Finished it in one sitting. I cant remember if I liked it. I might have finished it out of sheer boredom.

fixed

Melo
5/23/2006, 09:11 PM
fixed

Thanks. Right after I posted that, I knew someone would fix it. :D

yermom
5/23/2006, 09:59 PM
Awesome. Thanks for the suggestions.

Like I said, sci fi has never interested me. A few days ago, a friend of mine was talking about how sci fi is a waste of time/not worthy (something along those lines) because it totally excludes any concept of God as we understand him. My point was...and I was totally talking out of my ***... was that the brilliance of great sci fi was that it questions our understanding of God/human destiny, etc. And that by doing so, it gets people to think about such stuff.

Anyway, I guess I want to see if I'm right about that ;)

why would God be a prerequisite in fiction?

KaiserSooner
5/23/2006, 11:03 PM
Good question. I still don't understand why she was thinking science fiction should be strangled by conventional thinking on God.

ouflak
5/24/2006, 04:30 AM
Good question. I still don't understand why she was thinking science fiction should be strangled by conventional thinking on God.

Heck I wonder why she would feel that science fiction couldn't include conventional thinking on God. Science and God are not mutually exclusive. Far from it in fact. Plenty of science fiction reflects that Truth.

Scott D
5/24/2006, 07:46 AM
why would God be a prerequisite in fiction?

because ironically at least 1/4 of all science fiction written has a 'search for god' element to it.

crawfish
5/24/2006, 08:20 AM
because ironically at least 1/4 of all science fiction written has a 'search for god' element to it.

Clarke has put that element in nearly all of his series - Rama, 200x, etc.

I'm not aware of a SF book that takes the current view of God and shows how it applies to the future in any positive way.

KaiserSooner
5/24/2006, 10:37 AM
Heck I wonder why she would feel that science fiction couldn't include conventional thinking on God.

To her, it's not that sci fi couldn't include it, it's that (or so she believes) it doesn't include it.

ouflak
5/24/2006, 02:15 PM
Clarke has put that element in nearly all of his series - Rama, 200x, etc.

I'm not aware of a SF book that takes the current view of God and shows how it applies to the future in any positive way.


What do you mean by a 'current view'? When I refer to God in science fiction, I mean a very general non-specific diety that doesn't necessarily adhere to a particular religious interpretation. This is typical of science fiction. If you mean an American conservative Christian interpretation, then I don't know that you will find many sci-fi books at all, positive or negative, that put God forth in that light, especially in any current context. Science fiction can sometimes be very dated very quickly. A book written twenty years ago whilst still in the cold war may present a different view on God than a book written in the 50's or written today.

Frankly, I think it's usually mankind that's put in a negative light of some kind with regards to God in science fiction. Usually the God aspect is neutral and totally ambivalent, or perhaps in some way dissatisfied with the path humanity has taken.

One novel I can think of that might fit your current-view-negative perspective is David Brin's Jupiter. However that is a purposely grim presentation, and I think it's obvious that Brin presents a near apocolyptic social situation. The commentary here is not that God is negative, but that radical human interpretation and religious extremism are negative. God is completely above and removed from such pettiness and basically ignores these human tendencies.

I'm curious to know what titles you think present any current view of God in a negative light. I don't think too much of what's been mentioned in this thread fits, but there is a lot of good science fiction out there and I really haven't been keeping up as much as I would like.

crawfish
5/24/2006, 02:39 PM
Perhaps "negative" is too strong a word...most titles simply assume that religion as practiced today will become irrelevent in the wake of scientific progress.

NormanPride
5/24/2006, 02:46 PM
Hmm.. I've never noticed that aspect of Sci-fi... More like the advances in technology will teach us to look at God differently. Clarke's Rama series certainly did that, though it wasn't until the end of the series that those points were made.

ouflak
5/24/2006, 04:59 PM
Perhaps "negative" is too strong a word...most titles simply assume that religion as practiced today will become irrelevent in the wake of scientific progress.

I'm really interested in knowing what you mean by 'as practiced today'. Do you mean how Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Judism and Catholocism, and all of the rest of the religions of the world are practiced today? Or do you mean how American conservative Christianity is practiced today? It's just that it can be argued that how any of these religions are practiced today is significantly different from how they were practiced just 50 years earlier. Certainly that is the case with American Christianity.

Anyway, I think it would be awfully arrogant for a science fiction author to assume that somehow religion will be irrelevant just because of scientific and/or technological advances. I'd like to check out some of these titles.

Besides that, I need to kind of get caught up again since I've kind of been out of the sci-fi loop for a while. Maybe this religious irrelevancy theme is a new trend among recent authors? I guess I could see this happening as sort of a backlash against a recent surge of fundamentalism, in America atleast.

swardboy
5/24/2006, 05:05 PM
Just about anything by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven (together, not separate -- some of their solo books are good too, but the two together have never left me dissapointed). Footfall, Lucifer's Hammer, The Mote in God's Eye (and other CoDominium series), etc. All excellent.

Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille by Steven Brust. Kind of campy, not awe inspiring or anything, but a fun read. His fantasty stuff, especially the Vlad Taltos and other books set in Dragaera are absolutely great.

Ditto on Pournelle/Niven...and I especially enjoyed Niven's "Ringworld" trilogy.

"Have Space Suit, Will Travel" by Heinlein got me hooked on the genre in 5th grade. Andre Norton spinned a great yarn too. Man, summers goin' to the library to find a whole new universe to escape to....greatness.

swardboy
5/24/2006, 05:08 PM
Clarke has put that element in nearly all of his series - Rama, 200x, etc.

I'm not aware of a SF book that takes the current view of God and shows how it applies to the future in any positive way.

C.S. Lewis did it in "Perelandra" series....

swardboy
5/24/2006, 05:10 PM
And, Clarke made an overtly anti-Christian reference when his leading character for the oversight of humanity's next leap in evolution stepped from his saucer and had a striking resemblance to.......SATAN!!!! (Foundation trilogy)

Scott D
5/24/2006, 05:13 PM
And, Clarke made an overtly anti-Christian reference when his leading character for the oversight of humanity's next leap in evolution stepped from his saucer and had a striking resemblance to.......SATAN!!!! (Foundation trilogy)

that'd be Asimov :P

Pricetag
5/24/2006, 05:21 PM
I can't believe no one has mentioned Ray Bradbury yet. Farenhite 454 and the Martian Chronicles are among Sci-fi's very best.
Speaking of Mars, Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan creator) wrote a series of sci-fi books about the adventures of John Carter on Mars. My brother was into them.

crawfish
5/24/2006, 05:35 PM
that'd be Asimov :P

Actually, it would be Clarke in "Childhood's End".

Except the "Foundation" part. ;)

crawfish
5/24/2006, 05:37 PM
I'm really interested in knowing what you mean by 'as practiced today'. Do you mean how Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Judism and Catholocism, and all of the rest of the religions of the world are practiced today? Or do you mean how American conservative Christianity is practiced today? It's just that it can be argued that how any of these religions are practiced today is significantly different from how they were practiced just 50 years earlier. Certainly that is the case with American Christianity.

Anyway, I think it would be awfully arrogant for a science fiction author to assume that somehow religion will be irrelevant just because of scientific and/or technological advances. I'd like to check out some of these titles.

Besides that, I need to kind of get caught up again since I've kind of been out of the sci-fi loop for a while. Maybe this religious irrelevancy theme is a new trend among recent authors? I guess I could see this happening as sort of a backlash against a recent surge of fundamentalism, in America atleast.

Sorry. I've got too much on my mind (work, home) to be very coherent about this subject right now. :eddie:

Scott D
5/24/2006, 05:49 PM
Actually, it would be Clarke in "Childhood's End".

Except the "Foundation" part. ;)

I was talking about the 'Foundation' part :D

swardboy
5/24/2006, 10:18 PM
Thank you all...I'm confused....I read too much science fiction.

proud gonzo
5/24/2006, 10:19 PM
Science Fiction double feature
http://www.rocky-horror-deutschland.de/RHPSbilder/scifi.jpg

Scott D
5/25/2006, 01:12 PM
Ok, I looked over in my bookcase (one of many actually) The Chung Kuo series was written by David Wingrove, and is 8 or 9 books long.

crawfish
5/25/2006, 01:14 PM
So Kaiser, whatcha gonna read? :)