People never cease.....

[chriscappel]

To P!ss me off......

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12860863/

[etouffee]

Never gonna change til we get a president with an actual sack on him. And the outlook for that for the foreseeable future is grim. It's very likely that by the time the folks in Washington wake up and realize that the time for lip service and token measures is past and something serious must be done, it won't even matter.

[picasso]

Never gonna change til we get a president with an actual sack on him. And the outlook for that for the foreseeable future is grim. It's very likely that by the time the folks in Washington wake up and realize that the time for lip service and token measures is past and something serious must be done, it won't even matter.
that could cover a wide range of issues.

I say we start with term limits for all of those wankers.

[slickdawg]

Never gonna change til we get a president with an actual sack on him. And the outlook for that for the foreseeable future is grim. It's very likely that by the time the folks in Washington wake up and realize that the time for lip service and token measures is past and something serious must be done, it won't even matter.


When thye finally take REAL action, it'll be in espanol.

[Osce0la]

When thye finally take REAL action, it'll be in espanol.
And we'll be trying to stop the Canadians from taking over North Mexico.

[SoonerBorn68]

“We’ll go under it, we’ll go over it, we’ll go through the air, the sea or the earth, but they’re never going to stop us from crossing,” said Jesus Santana, a Tijuana truck driver who was caught trying to cross and deported.

Claymore mines would slow'em down a might.

[OUinFLA]

well, crap, Ive been trying to copy something from that article and cant get it pasted here.

Point being, perhaps the Mexican gub should be trying hard to develop their own country while they still have citizens who really do want to work living there.

[soonerhubs]

Due to family and friends I stay quite neutral on this issue, but I can't help but wonder if all this energy used to get into the US was put into building a self-sustained successful life in Mexico there would be alot less need for illegal immigration. Maybe I'm wrong. I should study Mexico's economic domestic policy before I assume this.

[Taxman71]

The Mexican govt isn't much better than the middle east or Africa. A small group of fatcats getting rich while the masses live in stinking poverty. All the US dollars that gets sent to Mexico goes straight to their pockets and does nothing to help the locals.

Meanwhile, US politicians (esp. Texas) don't mind immigration because it increases their population = more congressman and Federal dollars. The illegals will be stopped only when the prior generation of illegals don't want them their reputation.

[SoonerBorn68]

I say we fund a coupe...id prolly be cheaper.

[chriscappel]

its just irritating that they KNOW they are breaking the law....so why keep doing it? why not go thru due processes to become LEGAL! Another thing that really got me was the fact that Mexico is mad because we are putting up more walls.... they say it shows "no trust".....WELL DUH!! when thaere are 12 million ILLEGAL aliens here we got to do something.....although it might be too late....

[Jeopardude]

Claymore mines would slow'em down a might.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Oklahoma!

[olevetonahill]

well, crap, Ive been trying to copy something from that article and cant get it pasted here.

Point being, perhaps the Mexican gub should be trying hard to develop their own country while they still have citizens who really do want to work living there.

Yep , Plus if our people who are unemployed , on welfare would get off their lazy azzes and do the jobs that the Illegals do . There wouldnt be much demand for em
We have a lot of em here , they work in the chicken plants and stack rock for rock yards . sucky work but they do it and get paid fairly well .
I have at least 2 to 3 people a week ask me If I know where they can get a job ? But those 2 jobs are "to hard " or "to nasty "

[chriscappel]

Yep , Plus if our people who are unemployed , on welfare would get off their lazy azzes and do the jobs that the Illegals do . There wouldnt be much demand for em
We have a lot of em here , they work in the chicken plants and stack rock for rock yards . sucky work but they do it and get paid fairly well .
I have at least 2 to 3 people a week ask me If I know where they can get a job ? But those 2 jobs are "to hard " or "to nasty "

Yup i know what you are saying....sure they do the work a lot of us wont....BUT they dont pay taxes either.....and that bothers me....

[Scott D]

its just irritating that they KNOW they are breaking the law....so why keep doing it? why not go thru due processes to become LEGAL! Another thing that really got me was the fact that Mexico is mad because we are putting up more walls.... they say it shows "no trust".....WELL DUH!! when thaere are 12 million ILLEGAL aliens here we got to do something.....although it might be too late....

probably because the process to become a legal citizen in this country is akin to our ridiculous tax laws....I swear that the IRS runs that also. It'd almost be worthwhile to just get enough illegals in to go back to Mexico and vote it to be the 51st state of the Union. Then they could stay in Mexico.

Oh and even better news....Mortgage companies are now giving home loans to illegals....another lobby group to work against the naturalization process....and where is our government in regards to this matter?

[soonerhubs]

probably because the process to become a legal citizen in this country is akin to our ridiculous tax laws....I swear that the IRS runs that also. It'd almost be worthwhile to just get enough illegals in to go back to Mexico and vote it to be the 51st state of the Union. Then they could stay in Mexico.

Oh and even better news....Mortgage companies are now giving home loans to illegals....another lobby group to work against the naturalization process....and where is our government in regards to this matter?

I thought that was your job to correct as a pimpministrator. :D

[chriscappel]

probably because the process to become a legal citizen in this country is akin to our ridiculous tax laws....I swear that the IRS runs that also. It'd almost be worthwhile to just get enough illegals in to go back to Mexico and vote it to be the 51st state of the Union. Then they could stay in Mexico.

Oh and even better news....Mortgage companies are now giving home loans to illegals....another lobby group to work against the naturalization process....and where is our government in regards to this matter?

Democrats pi$$ me off too!!

[scaldeddawg]

Claymore mines would slow'em down a might.

Hell yeah!

Someone needs to take notes from the East Germans in Berlin from about 1961-1989.

[Scott D]

I thought that was your job to correct as a pimpministrator. :D

hey I'm all for illegals....trucks full of non engrish speaking workers need ho's too :)

[Scott D]

Hell yeah!

Someone needs to take notes from the East Germans in Berlin from about 1961-1989.

On how to be shot by the Soviets if you didn't do what they said?

[soonerhubs]

hey I'm all for illegals....trucks full of non engrish speaking workers need ho's too :)
Scott D driving the equal rights train to newer places! :)

[Scott D]

Scott D driving the equal rights train to newer places! :)

nah...ALL ABOOOOOOOARD...THA HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TRAIN! :D

[Mjcpr]

You go, Don Cornelius. :D

[soonerhubs]

nah...ALL ABOOOOOOOARD...THA HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TRAIN! :D
Heh.

[Scott D]

You go, Don Cornelius. :D

Bri if you'd be so kind as to inform Pat, I'd appreciate it :)

[scaldeddawg]

On how to be shot by the Soviets if you didn't do what they said?

Communist practices notwithstanding, not too many East Germans attempted to cross that barrier.

With statements like: "We’ll go under it, we’ll go over it, we’ll go through the air, the sea or the earth, but they’re never going to stop us from crossing,” said Jesus Santana." , and "Of course we’ll cross again. We’re just waiting for them to come and pick us up,” said Javier Torres............

I wonder if they would've tried this in Berlin? Maybe once or twice.

ah......... we'll never do that...... America won't ever get too far right, will it?

[Scott D]

yeah but conversely it's not like these Mexicans are living in fear of being turned in to the secret police by their neighbors if they even breathed a breath about coming to the United States and crossing under over or through a fence.

[scaldeddawg]

yeah but conversely it's not like these Mexicans are living in fear of being turned in to the secret police by their neighbors if they even breathed a breath about coming to the United States and crossing under over or through a fence.

Very true.

I suppose it boils down to motivation/reasons and consequences.

[slickdawg]

If we just start putting a few rounds in the chests of them while they cross
the border, and make a few examples out of them, they will quickly learn
to stay the **** out.

[royalfan5]

If we just start putting a few rounds in the chests of them while they cross
the border, and make a few examples out of them, they will quickly learn
to stay the **** out.
Land mines would be much simpler and require less personel.

[slickdawg]

Land mines would be much simpler and require less personel.


But our boys would get lots of live training for a few weeks.

[royalfan5]

But our boys would get lots of live training for a few weeks.
The land mine will probably only take off a limb, I don't think they would be ruined for target practice.

[mdklatt]

BUT they dont pay taxes either.....and that bothers me....

They don't pay income taxes, but they also don't get welfare or Social Security.

[mdklatt]

its just irritating that they KNOW they are breaking the law....so why keep doing it?

Do you always obey the speed limit?

[Scott D]

They don't pay income taxes, but they also don't get welfare or Social Security.

but they will be bilked by the Mortgage industry in the race to make them home owners, which they'll go for simply because land ownership is a fast track to citizenship based upon the most core of tenants in the foundation of this nation.

[chriscappel]

Do you always obey the speed limit?

Well going 5 over the speed limit is a bit different from leeching of society....

[chriscappel]

They don't pay income taxes, but they also don't get welfare or Social Security.

welfare is something that needs to go away too....if you get the illegals out and take away the welfare checks i am almost willing to bet those jobs they are doing would be filled real quick....Just my opinion though!

[Big Red Ron]

Communist practices ....

I wonder if they would've tried this in Berlin? Maybe once or twice.

ah......... we'll never do that...... America won't ever get too far right, will it?Ironic that it was the far left that went THAT far.

[Scott D]

Ironic that it was the far left that went THAT far.

I don't know if I'd consider the Soviet model of communism to be 'far left'. They were more of an election based Dictatorship for every year of it's existence until the end. And by election I mean only the Politburo having votes.

[mdklatt]

Well going 5 over the speed limit is a bit different from leeching of society....

How are they leaching off of society? They work because they have to--they can't collect welfare or other benefits. They pay gas taxes, tobacco taxes, property taxes, sales taxes and just about every other tax except income tax. The spend money here and stimulate the economy. Wage deflation is an issue, but that's not the immigrants' fault. Not ten months ago everybody was bitching about what a bunch of lazy bastards the Katrina refugess are, and now we're demonizing people who walk across a freaking desert just to get a ****ty job?

If you really want to solve the problem go after everybody who hires illegal immigrants. We'd better do something about the demand, because we're never going to sovle the supply problem.

[etouffee]

How are they leaching off of society? ...they can't collect welfare or other benefits.

That's not entirely accurate.

They leach off society by using the public education system, the healthcare system, and the correctional system, just for starters. For example, a 2004 study showed that it cost California taxpayers $7.7 BILLION dollars to school the kids of illegal immigrants, $1.4 BILLION to provide healthcare they couldn't pay for, and another $1.4 BILLION to incarcerate illegals who committed crimes. By my math, that's $10.5 BILLION of the California taxpayers' dollars that could've been used to provide services to the legal, taxpaying citizens of that state. (source (http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm))

Also, even though they aren't eligible, an estimated 36 to 42 percent of illegals in the US are drawing welfare (housing assistance, foodstamps, AFDC, etc) anyway. (source (http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html)) With an estimated 12B illegals in the country, that means at least 4B are collecting assistance.

[chriscappel]

Thank you....i was trying to research those numbers and all....you got to it first

[etouffee]

It should also be noted that the children of illegals are US citizens and therefore fully eligible for all federal assistance programs and many state programs, so the illegal members of their family are, at least indirectly, receiving benefits too. (unless, of course, you're naive enough to think the illegal parents spend 100% of the welfare dollars on the legal kids.)

[mdklatt]

They leach off society by using the public education system, the healthcare system, and the correctional system, just for starters.


Are these funded solely by income taxes?




For example, a 2004 study showed that it cost California taxpayers $7.7 BILLION dollars to school the kids of illegal immigrants, $1.4 BILLION to provide healthcare they couldn't pay for, and another $1.4 BILLION to incarcerate illegals who committed crimes. By my math, that's $10.5 BILLION of the California taxpayers' dollars that could've been used to provide services to the legal, taxpaying citizens of that state.


But illegals do pay taxes. How much of the $10.5 billion was collected directly from illegals? How much of it was collected from corporations whose profits were increased by hiring illegals? What about increased profits from customers who were illegals? What about increased personal income taxes from all the legal workers who are being hired by stores where the illegals do business?

So now I guess the right-wingers in this country are telling us that the ultimate economic contribution is paying income taxes? Well that's ironic.




Also, even though they aren't eligible, an estimated 36 to 42 percent of illegals in the US are drawing welfare anyway. (source (http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html))

Can you find a source other than a web site called "The American Resistance" for that tidbit?

[mdklatt]

It should also be noted that the children of illegals are US citizens

This is total crap and needs to be stopped. But as Okla-homey likes to point out, putting an end to this may be politically impossible.

[chriscappel]

This is total crap and needs to be stopped. But as Okla-homey likes to point out, putting an end to this may be politically impossible.


Well all i know is SOMETHING needs to be done...

[etouffee]

Can you find a source other than a web site called "The American Resistance" for that tidbit?Don't like the data, so you attempt to discredit source, huh? Nope, sorry, the name of a website has nothing to do with the reliability of the information. If you believe the data I have presented is questionable, the burden is on YOU to provide data that refutes it.

[etouffee]

And while we're at it, how bout you provide some actual data and sources for all the taxes paid by illegals that you keep trumpeting. Let's see how much they're actually contributing, rather than you just assuring us they contribute a whole bunch.

[mdklatt]

And while we're at it, how bout you provide some actual data and sources for all the taxes paid by illegals that you keep trumpeting. Let's see how much they're actually contributing, rather than you just assuring us they contribute a whole bunch.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure it's not $0 like all of you are saying. You can't just say "they don't pay taxes" and fold your arms, because that's demonstrably false. My argument may be wrong, but I know yours is.

[etouffee]

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure it's not $0 like all of you are saying. You can't just say "they don't pay taxes" and fold your arms, because that's demonstrably false. My argument may be wrong, but I know yours is.
Mine? Please point me back to where I said illegals don't pay any taxes, because I certainly don't recall typing anything like that. Sure, they pay sales taxes and sometimes a few other taxes. You seem to be implying that's enough to cover all the benefits they're receiving for being here, but you're not providing any data to back it up. I know that, at least for me, the amount of income and property tax I pay far exceeds sales tax.

[chriscappel]

i dont understand why you support them being here... are you an employer???

[mdklatt]

Don't like the data, so you attempt to discredit source, huh? Nope, sorry, the name of a website has nothing to do with the reliability of the information. If you believe the data I have presented is questionable, the burden is on YOU to provide data that refutes it.

A number on an obviously biased web site with absolutely no indication where it came from? Yeah, I'm going to discredit that. That number might be correct, but how am I supposed to know that?

Here's your retuting evidence. Create new text file on your computer called "webpage.html", copy the text below into the file, save the file, and open it with your browser.

<html>
<head><title="Viva La Illegal Immigrants"></head>
<body>
Illegal immigrants in the US paid $1.2 trillion dollars in tax revenue to cities, states, and the federal government while collecting $1 trillion in government benefits.
</body>
<html>

[etouffee]

ok, since we're into sources and what not, what's the credible, non-biased source of those numbers?

Also, what does "government benefits" mean? Does that just refer to foodstamps, housing assistance, and other government welfare programs? Or does it include healthcare, public education, and cost of incarceration?

[mdklatt]

i dont understand why you support them being here...

This has nothing to do with whether or not I support them being here. I'm simply activating my BS detector. Illegal immigrants do pay taxes. That is a fact. Illegal immigrants contribute to economic growth. That is a fact. Do they take more than they contribute? I don't know, but as far as I've seen nobody making that argument here knows for sure, either.

Ideally there would be no illegal immigration, but I don't think we should blame the immigrants. Maybe we need to change our immigration laws so that they're not illegal. We certainly need to enforce existing laws against businesses and individuals that hire illegal workers. All the fences, surveillance balloons, and prison space we can build will not stop people from sneaking over the border if they know they can get a job here. Why is there more outrage at the Mexicans who are breaking our laws than the Americans who are hiring them? The Mexicans are just trying to feed their families for the most part, while the Americans are trying to save a buck by exploiting the Mexicans.

[mdklatt]

ok, since we're into sources and what not, what's the credible, non-biased source of those numbers?


I pulled them out of my ***. They're completely made up. For all we know, so are the numbers on that American Resistance web site.

[mdklatt]

I know that, at least for me, the amount of income and property tax I pay far exceeds sales tax.

The property tax myth again....

Property owners are not the only ones that pay property tax. Do you think the landlord of a rental property pays property taxes out of his own pocket, or do you think that maybe in a crazy little scheme to make money he adds that amount to the rent?

[chriscappel]

This has nothing to do with whether or not I support them being here. I'm simply activating my BS detector. Illegal immigrants do pay taxes. That is a fact. Illegal immigrants contribute to economic growth. That is a fact. Do they take more than they contribute? I don't know, but as far as I've seen nobody making that argument here knows for sure, either.

Ideally there would be no illegal immigration, but I don't think we should blame the immigrants. Maybe we need to change our immigration laws so that they're not illegal. We certainly need to enforce existing laws against businesses and individuals that hire illegal workers. All the fences, surveillance balloons, and prison space we can build will not stop people from sneaking over the border if they know they can get a job here. Why is there more outrage at the Mexicans who are breaking our laws than the Americans who are hiring them? The Mexicans are just trying to feed their families for the most part, while the Americans are trying to save a buck by exploiting the Mexicans.


see i agree with you on the fact of the employers....they should be punished harder than the illegals... But why should WE have to cater to thier every need....i.e. learning Spanish, Giving them rights that they dont deserve.... I am in the military and i dont like the fact that i am defending 12 million illegal immigrants...

[mdklatt]

I am in the military and i dont like the fact that i am defending 12 million illegal immigrants...

What would be different for you if you weren't? :confused:

[chriscappel]

knowing that i defend the freedoms of those who deserve it....

[SoonerBorn68]

So, md, do these illegals have a right to vote? I mean, they're here, pay taxes, and their kids go to our schools.

[mdklatt]

So, md, do these illegals have a right to vote? I mean, they're here, pay taxes, and their kids go to our schools.

No. They don't have a right to be here in the first place. But they are here, and we're not going to be able to sound bite our way to a solution.

[SoonerBorn68]

I don't what you mean about sound bite. I've offered several ideas that would work. Here's the list:

Impose monterous fines and prison time for those who hire or rent to them or apply a flat income tax on them of 20%.

Get them out of our public schools. If they want to attend, get legal or pay tuition.

Put troops on the borders...Not in a "build a fence way", but a "you need to go back or we will shoot you way".

Impose a 20% tax on all funds electronically sent out of the country, ie, Western Union, unless citizenship can be proven.

Take away all monetary aid to Mexico. They are only encouraging the illegal crossings to supplement their economy.

Arrest them on site and put them on a chain gang for 30 days & then deport them. Picking up trash for nothing might not be their American dream.

Sorry this is so harsh, but a hundred years of immigration policy neglect has taken place and the only way to correct it is with zero tolerence.

[Scott D]

I don't what you mean about sound bite. I've offered several ideas that would work. Here's the list:

Impose monterous fines and prison time for those who hire or rent to them or apply a flat income tax on them of 20%.

no argument with that idea..the gubment loves finding new ways to tax people.


Get them out of our public schools. If they want to attend, get legal or pay tuition.

nice in theory, but not likely to be effective.


Put troops on the borders...Not in a "build a fence way", but a "you need to go back or we will shoot you way".

completely unviable in every possible manner. There'd be no faster way to have the world community up our *** even more than they are now than to impliment something like this. You are asking for a PR nightmare.


Impose a 20% tax on all funds electronically sent out of the country, ie, Western Union, unless citizenship can be proven.

might actually be viable..but all sorts of legal issues will arise the first time a nationalized or native born citizen gets hit with this tax.


Take away all monetary aid to Mexico. They are only encouraging the illegal crossings to supplement their economy.

Best idea in the thread, however no government will ever have the testicular fortitude to do it.


Arrest them on site and put them on a chain gang for 30 days & then deport them. Picking up trash for nothing might not be their American dream.

Yeah....as if Abu Garib and Guatanamo haven't created enough problems for us.


Sorry this is so harsh, but a hundred years of immigration policy neglect has taken place and the only way to correct it is with zero tolerence.

I disagree, I think there are plenty of justifiably legal subtle means to go about making the correct policy changes without running a very high risk of ****ing off the rest of the world. Like it or not, there is a bigger picture and while the face of illegal immigrants may be Mexican, the truth still remains that the whole of illegal immigration isn't from our neighbors from the south.

[mdklatt]

I don't what you mean about sound bite.

What do we hear from anti-immgrant side? "Pay taxes and speak English!" What do we hear from pro-immigrant side? "There is not such thing as an illegal human being!" No real solutions, just more idealogical bull****.




Get them out of our public schools. If they want to attend, get legal or pay tuition.


Aren't public schools funded by the kind of local taxes that even illegals pay? Heaven knows the feds aren't forking over any money for their No Child Left Behind mandates.




Put troops on the borders...Not in a "build a fence way", but a "you need to go back or we will shoot you way".


You would have the US military shoot unarmed people?



Impose a 20% tax on all funds electronically sent out of the country, ie, Western Union, unless citizenship can be proven.


How about we eliminate corporate tax shelters first. That will recover a lot more money.



Take away all monetary aid to Mexico. They are only encouraging the illegal crossings to supplement their economy.


Illegal immigrants come here to get away with from the ****ty Mexican economy...so let's keep them from coming here by making the Mexican economy even ****tier? Sounds like a plan.

Seriously, whatever aid we do give to Mexico isn't making it to the people who need it anyway so this wouldn't make anything worse (or better).



Arrest them on site and put them on a chain gang for 30 days & then deport them. Picking up trash for nothing might not be their American dream.


How about we concentrate our limited resources on keeping out the criminals and terrorists instead of worrying about people who just want a job. Did Bush mention the Canadian border at all last week? You know, the border where we've actually caught terrorists?

[SoonerBorn68]

Aren't public schools funded by the kind of local taxes that even illegals pay?

Doesn't matter if they are here illegally. If you visited England wouldn't you have to pay their taxes?


What do we hear from anti-immgrant side? "Pay taxes and speak English!" What do we hear from pro-immigrant side? "There is not such thing as an illegal human being!" No real solutions, just more idealogical bull****.

Why not speak English? After all it is the common language of the United States. Yes tax them. I pay income tax, why don't they? Who gives a crap about the 8% they paid for a bottle of Coke or a 42" plasma TV? Let them feel my pain every two weeks when they take out 30%. If a guy comes here legally welcome him. If he sneaks in, punish him. To be a human being is not illegal...to take that human form across the border without an invitation is.


You would have the US military shoot unarmed people?

Yes. ;)


How about we eliminate corporate tax shelters first. That will recover a lot more money.

We can work on that too.


Aren't public schools funded by the kind of local taxes that even illegals pay? Heaven knows the feds aren't forking over any money for their No Child Left Behind mandates.

Oh yeah, like the landlord bumping up the rent to recoupe their property tax. It's not their property so it's actually not their tax to pay. They may be paying for it, but it's not their responsibility...bad luck for them. I stand by my statement. You have no right to be educated in our country if you are not here legally even if you pay "other taxes".


How about we concentrate our limited resources on keeping out the criminals and terrorists instead of worrying about people who just want a job. Did Bush mention the Canadian border at all last week? You know, the border where we've actually caught terrorists?

How 'bout these people coming into the country legally so we can focus on criminals and terrorists. Is it our fault their country is nothing but a cesspool of corruption? Why should we as Americans tow the line?

I noticed you just picked apart the statements you wanted to and really didn't offer any "real" solutions yourself. I appreciate your total ignoring of my statements about punishment for enablers and taxing "guest workers".

On to Scott D.:


Yeah....as if Abu Garib and Guatanamo haven't created enough problems for us.

Well, they are causing an expense to us for deporting them. Let them help pay for the trouble. ;) OK, I was a little perturbed when I wrote that...


I disagree, I think there are plenty of justifiably legal subtle means to go about making the correct policy changes without running a very high risk of ****ing off the rest of the world. Like it or not, there is a bigger picture and while the face of illegal immigrants may be Mexican, the truth still remains that the whole of illegal immigration isn't from our neighbors from the south.

I'm not talking about just our southern neighbors. There are plenty of foreigners that were in the catch and release program. It makes no difference to me who they are.


completely unviable in every possible manner. There'd be no faster way to have the world community up our *** even more than they are now than to impliment something like this. You are asking for a PR nightmare.

I just added that 'cause I knew it would **** off mdklatt. See other statement above.;)

I think it's funny with that don't pay attention to history/doomed to repeat it stuff. Apparently nobody's heard of the Roman Empire and the erosion from within theory.

[MamaMia]

that could cover a wide range of issues.

I say we start with term limits for all of those wankers.
Term limits is something that the vast majority of voters have always wanted. The fact that we dont have term limits is proof positive that the politicians care more about whats best for them.

[noleamite]

intense debate..indeed.